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View Full Version : Texans' Defense: Really Kinda Almost Good, maybe?


dalemurphy
09-21-2009, 01:43 PM
Okay, so clearly there were some colossal mistakes and some ugly defense by the Texans... but, I am encouraged by some things. For one, the aggressive style and the sloppiness did allow the Texans' offense 13 posessions, which they turned into 34 points.

* The defense had 9 tackles for a loss in addition to its 2 turnovers... that's 11 negative plays, not counting a few penalties that the pressure created.

* The defense had 7 posessions of 4 plays or less that ended in a punt or a turnover (not counting the short scoring drives)

* The Texans gave up 10 points on the Titans final 10 posessions of the games.

Clearly, the busted assignments and 3rd and long conversions have to be cleaned up before we start actually talking about the defense being good but clearly the defense has shown these first two weeks that it can make plays and has some serious potential. The good news is that Barber and Ferguson have been taken off the field and hopefully Okoye will be next.

by the way, Antonio Smith was very disruptive yesterday.

brakos82
09-21-2009, 01:47 PM
I'm calling this defense "Boom-or-Bust". We let in the huge plays every once in a while, but other than those select few plays, we can be dominant.

Hervoyel
09-21-2009, 01:48 PM
They're doing some good things during the course of the game which is nice but unless they can start stopping people regularly on third down they are not good. They're getting destroyed by the run right now (coming in 30th? Hell, Richard Smith was at 23 against the run when he was shown the door) and 23rd against the pass.

We are still weak on the line but I'd say there's potential upside there still. We have a pretty good set of linebackers who I think will get better if Cushing stays healthy and continues to improve, and our secondary will get a little better when Reeves returns.

We might be kind of good by the end of the year if all the stars align and they figure out how to fix all these stupid break downs.

Porky
09-21-2009, 01:51 PM
Ya, I can defeintely see the potential. It's like periods of awesomeness followed by brief bursts of total suckage. If the total suckage can be turned into just decentness, this D can be very good. But, this is a pattern not just these first two games, but going back to Minn and NO as well.

Instead of the bend but don't break defenses we are used to, this is more like the safety glass defense. It's tough as hell to get thru but when someone punches a hole hard enough in it, it doesn't flex it shatters into a million pieces.

Fox
09-21-2009, 01:52 PM
The busted plays are the most concerning to me. It's a trend that started in the preseason and kept biting us in the butt straight through both of the first two games. The long runs for touchdowns are frustrating, but it's the blown coverages that I find completely dumbfounding. I mean seriously, when someone lines up at wide receiver, a defender is supposed to recognize that person and account for them on the play. What's the mystery in that?

These guys have been playing/coaching football for most of their lives and are getting paid millions but they can't figure out that someone needs to go stand in front of a wide out. Stupidity this deeply rooted surely can't be coming from just one person. Errant coaching and player naivety would have to unite forces to make the kind of stupid we've witnessed thus far.

Speedy
09-21-2009, 01:54 PM
455.5 yards per game.

215 rushing yards per game.

190 yards per game on THIRD DOWN.

11-17 (65%) conversion rate on 3rd and 7 yards or more.

1 sack in 2 games.

I don't think it's close to being good

HJam72
09-21-2009, 01:55 PM
I don't think the defensive mistakes yesterday can be blamed on Frank Bush or, for the most part, his more aggressive play-calling. I think we just had some players on the field, mostly young ones, that screwed up here and there. It will get better.

One a side note, I agree with you about the safeties, but I think Okoye is coming along. He's holding his lanes for the most part and he's just done it against some very good O-lines. I expect some big games out of him the next few weeks, relatively speaking anyway.

HJam72
09-21-2009, 01:59 PM
The busted plays are the most concerning to me. It's a trend that started in the preseason and kept biting us in the butt straight through both of the first two games. The long runs for touchdowns are frustrating, but it's the blown coverages that I find completely dumbfounding. I mean seriously, when someone lines up at wide receiver, a defender is supposed to recognize that person and account for them on the play. What's the mystery in that?

These guys have been playing/coaching football for most of their lives and are getting paid millions but they can't figure out that someone needs to go stand in front of a wide out. Stupidity this deeply rooted surely can't be coming from just one person. Errant coaching and player naivety would have to unite forces to make the kind of stupid we've witnessed thus far.

One player screwed up and wasn't looking when the RB went out wide. It's all on him, considering how fast CJ is. The coaches couldn't even see it because it happened on the other side of the field. Yes, it was moronic, but it just comes down to one moron who hopefully learned a lesson.

Fox
09-21-2009, 02:01 PM
One player screwed up and wasn't looking when the RB went out wide. It's all on him, considering how fast CJ is. The coaches couldn't even see it because it happened on the other side of the field. Yes, it was moronic, but it just comes down to one moron who hopefully learned a lesson.

Where's your QB(s) on the field for our defense? Aren't Demeco and our safeties supposed to be keeping an eye on these things on the field, or are they supposed to have tunnel vision on their own assignments. How hard is it to notice a wide out with open grass in front of them.

Porky
09-21-2009, 02:03 PM
One player screwed up and wasn't looking when the RB went out wide. It's all on him, considering how fast CJ is. The coaches couldn't even see it because it happened on the other side of the field. Yes, it was moronic, but it just comes down to one moron who hopefully learned a lesson.

moron = Barber :cow:

76Texan
09-21-2009, 02:20 PM
This defense is a joke thus far.
And the Titans is not a great passing team by any stretch of imagination!

gtexan02
09-21-2009, 02:22 PM
They only had 150 yards passing if you discount that ridiculous pitch and catch to an undefended chris johnson

Specnatz
09-21-2009, 02:23 PM
One player screwed up and wasn't looking when the RB went out wide. It's all on him, considering how fast CJ is. The coaches couldn't even see it because it happened on the other side of the field. Yes, it was moronic, but it just comes down to one moron who hopefully learned a lesson.

moron = Barber :cow:

I would say DeMecco he is the defensive Captain and play caller.

HJam72
09-21-2009, 02:24 PM
Where's your QB(s) on the field for our defense? Aren't Demeco and our safeties supposed to be keeping an eye on these things on the field, or are they supposed to have tunnel vision on their own assignments. How hard is it to notice a wide out with open grass in front of them.

Barber shouldn't need anyone else to tell him to cover a wide-out, not surprising that a MLB didn't see it, and Barber is the safety. He definitely should've told himself. :gun:

I do seem to remember a CB in the area covering another wide-out on the same side, though, and I don't know why the *&(^ he wasn't screaming bloody murder. I gotta give you that one.

Speedy
09-21-2009, 02:32 PM
They only had 150 yards passing if you discount that ridiculous pitch and catch to an undefended chris johnson

The problem is, it does count.

TD plays of 30, 38, 57, 69 and 91 yards. And don't forget 2 other plays of 39 and 40. That's just TWO games.

Holy crap man!! They've ALMOST got me wishing Smith was still here.

Fox
09-21-2009, 02:34 PM
Barber shouldn't need anyone else to tell him to cover a wide-out, not surprising that a MLB didn't see it, and Barber is the safety. He definitely should've told himself. :gun:

I do seem to remember a CB in the area covering another wide-out on the same side, though, and I don't know why the *&(^ he wasn't screaming bloody murder. I gotta give you that one.

The leaders on our D need to try and keep an eye out for these mishaps. There was plenty of stupid to go around.

JDizzle
09-21-2009, 02:35 PM
They only had 150 yards passing if you discount that ridiculous pitch and catch to an undefended chris johnson

And Andre only had 75 yards receiving if you take away his ridiculous big yardage score.

You see, that dog doesn't hunt in the NFL. Games often come down to a play or two and can go either way.

BigBull17
09-21-2009, 02:36 PM
I do like mostofwhat Isaw.On 3rd and very long, I want the more concervative play calling.

76Texan
09-21-2009, 02:40 PM
Barber shouldn't need anyone else to tell him to cover a wide-out, not surprising that a MLB didn't see it, and Barber is the safety. He definitely should've told himself. :gun:

I do seem to remember a CB in the area covering another wide-out on the same side, though, and I don't know why the *&(^ he wasn't screaming bloody murder. I gotta give you that one.

There was no CB on this side.

Demeco was busing telling Diles and Cushhing what to do.
The Titans were in 2-TE formation.
We had Cushing on Crumpler on this side.
Then Crumpler went into motion and setlled next to the TE on the other side.
Demeco was busy telling Cushing and Diles to switch places.

If we intended to play 2-deep safeties, it would have been Diles who needed to take the RB out of the backfield.

noxiousdog
09-21-2009, 02:42 PM
And Andre only had 75 yards receiving if you take away his ridiculous big yardage score.

You see, that dog doesn't hunt in the NFL. Games often come down to a play or two and can go either way.

It certainly counts, but the difference is that it's a mental error. Mental errors *should* be fixable. If you're just not fast or strong, there's not anything you can do about it.

eriadoc
09-21-2009, 02:44 PM
Texans' Defense: Really Kinda Almost Good, maybe?

It's a definite possibility.

dalemurphy
09-21-2009, 02:45 PM
455.5 yards per game.

215 rushing yards per game.

190 yards per game on THIRD DOWN.

11-17 (65%) conversion rate on 3rd and 7 yards or more.

1 sack in 2 games.

I don't think it's close to being good


I actually think our run defense has been pretty good. I don't think draw plays on 3rd and long are a measuring stick for the quality of a run defense.. Certainly it says something about tackling and discipline. But, the fact is that the Texans won versus the run on first down and on short yardage. If I was going to forecast future production of a rush defense, those are the situations I'm going to look at.

Regarding the sacks, I think we have one less sack than the NYJets through two games. Again, it appears to me that we are getting pretty good pressure and yesterday the pressure produced some good results- causing both turnovers. In week one, the pressure created turnover opportunities in the 1st half that weren't converted.

If someone asked me to rank defensive performance in the NFL for the 1st 2 weeks, clearly we would be very near the bottom. However, if someone asks me to forecast defensive performance for the rest of the season based on evidence seen the 1st two weeks, the Texans would rank a lot higher than that. Certainly, the team could attempt to control the yardage and point numbers by playing umbrella defense and decreasing the number of posessions per game and encouraging teams to run the ball and keep the clock running. Instead, they've decided to actually use the defense to help them win games this season. The defense, bad as it has been at times, scored the season's first TD. It also created two big turnovers yesterday and held a quality football team to 7 points in the second half, while getting 4 second half 3 and outs! Missed assignments can be corrected. We don't have a collection of nitwits. We've acquired pretty intelligent football players and it is reasonable to expect them to correct many of these early season errors... If that happens, it's going to be a pretty good defense.

Jackie Chiles
09-21-2009, 02:46 PM
I can't remember us ever having so many third and longs when Richard Smith was here. Yeah we have sucked in those situations so far but if we keep putting ourselves in that position success will follow. Not going to make excuses for them but I will say that I expect a big jump in this defense starting next Sunday.

dalemurphy
09-21-2009, 02:49 PM
The problem is, it does count.

TD plays of 30, 38, 57, 69 and 91 yards. And don't forget 2 other plays of 39 and 40. That's just TWO games.

Holy crap man!! They've ALMOST got me wishing Smith was still here.

NO WAY! If Richard Smith is still here, we lose 27 - 17. We don't get any turnovers, and the Texans and Titans both get 10 posessions in the game because we don't create 5 3 and outs. As a result, the offense has fewer opportunities and we go down rather easily as usual. The Titans have only 180 yards rushing but are able to move the chains with 5-7 yard runs and convert 3rd and shorts, controlling the clock and managing the game.

76Texan
09-21-2009, 03:11 PM
NO WAY! If Richard Smith is still here, we lose 27 - 17. We don't get any turnovers, and the Texans and Titans both get 10 posessions in the game because we don't create 5 3 and outs. As a result, the offense has fewer opportunities and we go down rather easily as usual. The Titans have only 180 yards rushing but are able to move the chains with 5-7 yard runs and convert 3rd and shorts, controlling the clock and managing the game.

You mean to tell me that only Bush can will Collins into throwing that stupid pass so Wilson can intercept it?

Or that his 4-man pass rush was better than Richard Smith's 4-man pass rush that made Collins fumble the ball?

76Texan
09-21-2009, 03:20 PM
NO WAY! If Richard Smith is still here, we lose 27 - 17. We don't get any turnovers, and the Texans and Titans both get 10 posessions in the game because we don't create 5 3 and outs. As a result, the offense has fewer opportunities and we go down rather easily as usual. The Titans have only 180 yards rushing but are able to move the chains with 5-7 yard runs and convert 3rd and shorts, controlling the clock and managing the game.

In the first game we lost last year to the Titans, we had FIVE three-and-outs.
We also had one INT, and recovered a fumble.

In the second game, we won; we had FOUR three-and-outs.
We intercpeted Collins once, forced two fumbles and recover one.

dalemurphy
09-21-2009, 03:21 PM
You mean to tell me that only Bush can will Collins into throwing that stupid pass so Wilson can intercept it?

Or that his 4-man pass rush was better than Richard Smith's 4-man pass rush that made Collins fumble the ball?

Well, Collins got hit by 3 Texans as he let go of the pass on the interception. And, regarding the fumble, I would say that the cumulative affect of the pressure for the game and the fact that Okoye flashed and forced him forward did create that turnover.... Last year, Okoye would've been playing pattycake with the guard instead of shooting the gap and creating pressure.

I don't think "only Bush" can do that. But, I do think this defense is in much better shape with Bush as DC and guys like Cushing, A.Smith, Barwin, Busing on the team, than it was the past 2 seasons.

dalemurphy
09-21-2009, 03:29 PM
In the first game we lost last year to the Titans, we had FIVE three-and-outs.
We also had one INT, and recovered a fumble.

In the second game, we won; we had FOUR three-and-outs.
We intercpeted Collins once, forced two fumbles and recover one.

We did play well in that second game.. you are right. However, bragging about 3 and outs in the first game is a little disingenuous. First of all, the first 3 and out was a FG that gave them a 12 point lead... The next 4 3 and outs are from a team trying to ice the game, not a team trying to score.

Yesterday, the Titans needed points but couldn't sustain a drive. The Texans made plays behind the line of scrimmage and forced the Titans into uncomfortable situations.

rollinstone18
09-21-2009, 03:30 PM
i think we'll have to wait awhile before the D "clicks". Diles and Cushing are still young and will miss assignments. So will Busing, assuming he's replaced Barber. he also took a few bad angles to the ball carrier. and Barwin is going to rush the passer instead of playing the run (like the 3rd and long RB draw where Chris Johnson took it to the house). Our DTs are a crapshoot. and Bennett is not very good.

if the front seven starts to gell, then we'll be a decent D. it's a matter of time, i think, though before our secondary gets exposed, again.

Vinny
09-21-2009, 03:35 PM
I think the defense is awful. There were mistakes that you only see in High School football and Coach Bush has to be barely hanging onto his job right now.

gtexan02
09-21-2009, 03:37 PM
I think the defense is awful. There were mistakes that you only see in High School football and Coach Bush has to be barely hanging onto his job right now.

I hear this. With as much talent as we supposedly have, to give up 3 busted plays to the SAME PLAYER syas something about coaching to me. If we do this a 3rd week in a row, I have a feeling Bush may get the ax early

HOU-TEX
09-21-2009, 03:49 PM
Chris Johnson is probably the most explosive offensive player they have. You'd think we'd want to pay a little extra attention to him rather than leaving him alone.

This defense pisses me off right now. They'd start showing us a glimpse of improvement a couple plays then piss it away the very next.

Bennett is a joke too. If he ain't getting beat on a route, he's making a pussified attempt at a tackle.

76Texan
09-21-2009, 03:55 PM
I think the defense is awful. There were mistakes that you only see in High School football and Coach Bush has to be barely hanging onto his job right now.

If the Texans had failed to pull out the win, I'm sure the "Fire Frank Bush" thread would be 100 page long by now! :d:

And there would be nothing on the radio shows but the same thing from callers all over, including dalemurphy! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Vinny
09-21-2009, 03:56 PM
If the Texans had failed to pull out the win, I'm sure the "Fire Frank Bush" thread would be 100 page long by now! :d:

And there would be nothing on the radio shows but the same thing from callers all over, including dalemurphy! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
I bet he is barely hanging on to his job as we speak. I think that when we see something done well, we are witnessing the talent on the d and not so much coaching scheme. Early in the year I mentioned that my biggest concern with the "more attacking style" of defense was giving up big plays. Also, well coached teams talk to each other and help each other recognize the formation as awareness is harped on and harped on. If you listen to the crowd, they were buzzing about Johnson split out wide but nobody was helping anyone out on the Texans D. I was sure the crowd was going to "help" out the D but still, nobody snapped...this reeks of a poorly coached unit, especially in lieu of the debacles of last week as well.

76Texan
09-21-2009, 04:03 PM
Well, Collins got hit by 3 Texans as he let go of the pass on the interception. And, regarding the fumble, I would say that the cumulative affect of the pressure for the game and the fact that Okoye flashed and forced him forward did create that turnover.... Last year, Okoye would've been playing pattycake with the guard instead of shooting the gap and creating pressure.

I don't think "only Bush" can do that. But, I do think this defense is in much better shape with Bush as DC and guys like Cushing, A.Smith, Barwin, Busing on the team, than it was the past 2 seasons.
Collins tried to fit that pass in between 3 defenders, that was how he was intercepted.

He fired the pass at around the 3-1/2 sec mark.
If that's pressure for you, then enjoy it, but I can't.
If Bulman was just late another 1/8 of a sec, he might have been called for a late hit. Mario just the same. And Cushing (I think it was) scrambling at Collins' feet had no effect on the throw.

JDizzle
09-21-2009, 04:06 PM
It certainly counts, but the difference is that it's a mental error. Mental errors *should* be fixable. If you're just not fast or strong, there's not anything you can do about it.

I consider things like false starts or offsides mental errors. Leaving your opponent's only homerun hitter uncovered is plain stupid and inexcusable.

You fix stuff like this in the preseason and in this case you should be looking at #28 as soon as he comes out of the huddle, regardless of where he lines up. The fact that nobody paid attention to him or even called a timeout before the ball was snapped is embarrassing.

76Texan
09-21-2009, 04:08 PM
I bet he is barely hanging on to his job as we speak. I think that when we see something done well, we are witnessing the talent on the d and not so much coaching scheme. Early in the year I mentioned that my biggest concern with the "more attacking style" of defense was giving up big plays. Also, well coached teams talk to each other and help each other recognize the formation as awareness is harped on and harped on. If you listen to the crowd, they were buzzing about Johnson split out wide but nobody was helping anyone out on the Texans D. I was sure the crowd was going to "help" out the D but still, nobody snapped...reeks of a poorly coached unit, especially in lieu of the debacles of last week as well.
Is there anything I can add? Nothing, I imagine!

The CBs and safeties we have simply cannot sustain this aggressive style.
We could have very well been 0-2 right now, and what a disaster that would be.

dalemurphy
09-21-2009, 04:19 PM
I bet he is barely hanging on to his job as we speak. I think that when we see something done well, we are witnessing the talent on the d and not so much coaching scheme. Early in the year I mentioned that my biggest concern with the "more attacking style" of defense was giving up big plays. Also, well coached teams talk to each other and help each other recognize the formation as awareness is harped on and harped on. If you listen to the crowd, they were buzzing about Johnson split out wide but nobody was helping anyone out on the Texans D. I was sure the crowd was going to "help" out the D but still, nobody snapped...this reeks of a poorly coached unit, especially in lieu of the debacles of last week as well.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the fact that the defense made brutal mistakes yesterday and that those things need to stop. I'm not even arguing that the good plays are a result of Bush. I'm saying that I expect the defense to correct some of the ridiculous mistakes like the uncovered receiver. Clearly, it those things continue, the coach or coaches responsible need to be replaced... If they are corrected, we are going to win a lot of games when the defense makes 9 tackles behind the line of scrimmage, gets 2 turnovers, and gives the offense 13 posessions. I would rather give up the occasional 60 yard TD rather than allow a team to methodically march up and down the field on us and limit the offense's posessions.

Scooter
09-21-2009, 04:22 PM
isnt this more what we're looking for though? instead of "read and react", or "bend but dont break" - we've been asking for "boom or bust". our bad plays are unnatural from the game design and need to be addressed and if kubiak's attitude after the game carries over to practice, they will be. most of the busts are coming from our secondary and i see several things being fixed with the addition of busing and reeves.

Vinny
09-21-2009, 04:25 PM
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the fact that the defense made brutal mistakes yesterday and that those things need to stop. I'm not even arguing that the good plays are a result of Bush. I'm saying that I expect the defense to correct some of the ridiculous mistakes like the uncovered receiver. Clearly, it those things continue, the coach or coaches responsible need to be replaced... If they are corrected, we are going to win a lot of games when the defense makes 9 tackles behind the line of scrimmage, gets 2 turnovers, and gives the offense 13 posessions. I would rather give up the occasional 60 yard TD rather than allow a team to methodically march up and down the field on us and limit the offense's posessions.

isnt this more what we're looking for though? instead of "read and react", or "bend but dont break" - we've been asking for "boom or bust". our bad plays are unnatural from the game design and need to be addressed and if kubiak's attitude after the game carries over to practice, they will be. most of the busts are coming from our secondary and i see several things being fixed with the addition of busing and reeves.
this defense is giving up a ton of yards and a ton of points. Personally I don't care if it comes from a 'bend but don't break' defense or an aggressive gap control defense.

dalemurphy
09-21-2009, 04:26 PM
I bet he is barely hanging on to his job as we speak. I think that when we see something done well, we are witnessing the talent on the d and not so much coaching scheme. Early in the year I mentioned that my biggest concern with the "more attacking style" of defense was giving up big plays. Also, well coached teams talk to each other and help each other recognize the formation as awareness is harped on and harped on. If you listen to the crowd, they were buzzing about Johnson split out wide but nobody was helping anyone out on the Texans D. I was sure the crowd was going to "help" out the D but still, nobody snapped...this reeks of a poorly coached unit, especially in lieu of the debacles of last week as well.


What's interesting, if you watch the Chris Johnson TD catch play, is that he splits wide with exactly 15 seconds left on the play clock (which is when the coaches mike gets turned off, I think). I'd love to hear what Johnny Holland was yelling right at that point and I wonder what procedures are in place on the field once that communication device is turned off. I'm hoping against hope that some good questions, with follow-ups, are asked Kubiak about those broken plays in about 5 minutes.

dalemurphy
09-21-2009, 04:28 PM
this defense is giving up a ton of yards and a ton of points. Personally I don't care if it comes from a 'bend but don't break' defense or an aggressive gap control defense.

You don't think it would be better to give up 24 points and give the offense the ball 12 times versus giving up 24 points and giving the offense the ball 10 times?

Fox
09-21-2009, 04:29 PM
Isn't Bush preaching 'simplify' to our D? Reduce confusion and increase aggression? I see aggression, but for a 'simple' scheme I see way too much confusion.

Vinny
09-21-2009, 04:30 PM
What's interesting, if you watch the Chris Johnson TD catch play, is that he splits wide with exactly 15 seconds left on the play clock (which is when the coaches mike gets turned off, I think). I'd love to hear what Johnny Holland was yelling right at that point and I wonder what procedures are in place on the field once that communication device is turned off. I'm hoping against hope that some good questions, with follow-ups, are asked Kubiak about those broken plays in about 5 minutes.
Everyone on the D should know where the feature back is and someone should have been helping each other find him and at least calling a time out. The crowd is pretty quiet in Nashville when the Titans line up...I've been there and the fans do a great job being quiet for the offense.

TimeKiller
09-21-2009, 04:30 PM
Bennett is a joke too. If he ain't getting beat on a route, he's making a pussified attempt at a tackle.

It's been a long time since I've seen him do something promising. He's got the tools to be a high caliber player and it's like there is no one behind the controls. How many times are you gonna watch a curl route unfold and not jump the route for a pick 6?

Jackie Chiles
09-21-2009, 04:30 PM
What's interesting, if you watch the Chris Johnson TD catch play, is that he splits wide with exactly 15 seconds left on the play clock (which is when the coaches mike gets turned off, I think). I'd love to hear what Johnny Holland was yelling right at that point and I wonder what procedures are in place on the field once that communication device is turned off. I'm hoping against hope that some good questions, with follow-ups, are asked Kubiak about those broken plays in about 5 minutes.

Hopefully he isn't yelling anything because if he saw the play before the snap they should have called a timeout. They had to have missed it themselves.

dalemurphy
09-21-2009, 04:34 PM
Everyone on the D should know where the feature back is and someone should have been helping each other find him and at least calling a time out. The crowd is pretty quiet in Nashville when the Titans line up...I've been there and the fans do a great job being quiet for the offense.

You're right. I just wonder what the communication, or attempted communication, between the coaches and players were at that point. I also wonder if it is a problem to have the LB coach as the primary communicator to the defense with a new system in place.

What concerns me most about this defensive staff is their insistence on playing Barber, Okoye, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

silvrhand
09-21-2009, 04:49 PM
isnt this more what we're looking for though? instead of "read and react", or "bend but dont break" - we've been asking for "boom or bust". our bad plays are unnatural from the game design and need to be addressed and if kubiak's attitude after the game carries over to practice, they will be. most of the busts are coming from our secondary and i see several things being fixed with the addition of busing and reeves.

Scooter we keep throwing some of our secondary under the bus, but if you look at the two long runs, nothing is really just the secondary's fault, the only thing is the obvious no cover on #28. The other plays are more towards our front 7 and leaving gaping holes and then having OL coming down the field against our secondary which is just bad.

I'm hoping that #40 works his way in to the secondary starting role, he's a ball hawk and seems to be a playmaker on the field.

HOU-TEX
09-21-2009, 04:57 PM
It's been a long time since I've seen him do something promising. He's got the tools to be a high caliber player and it's like there is no one behind the controls. How many times are you gonna watch a curl route unfold and not jump the route for a pick 6?

Exactly. Or, how about the 2-5 yard out when he's giving a 7-10 yard cushion. Then he misses the tackle and a 2-5 yard out goes for a 1st down plus some. An "aggressive" front 7 doesn't do squat for you if your DB's give up quick and easy passes.

barrett
09-21-2009, 05:09 PM
If they are corrected, we are going to win a lot of games when the defense makes 9 tackles behind the line of scrimmage, gets 2 turnovers, and gives the offense 13 posessions.

I think this is really the main point of Dale's argument.

He's being very positive and basing his argument on the hope that the coaches do get the major mental errors corrected.

I think a major aspect to many of the mental errors is that there are several 1st and 2nd year players involved.

specifically in regards to players like McCain, Barber, Cushing, Okam etc.

Specnatz
09-21-2009, 05:25 PM
Why is it that everyone is blaming Bush for the Chris Johnson splitout TD catch and I am the only one calling out DeMecco, isn't he in charge of the defensive leader? Shouldn't he know where everyone on the field is? Hell, for that matter Wilson, the free safety, should have seen it from his position. Either of these two guys should have gotten a time out called.

utahmark
09-21-2009, 05:28 PM
It certainly counts, but the difference is that it's a mental error. Mental errors *should* be fixable. If you're just not fast or strong, there's not anything you can do about it.

for what it is worth. take away the 3 big plays and they had 240 yards of offense 90 rushing and 150 passing. i see this defense getting better as the year goes by. we will see.

Second Honeymoon
09-21-2009, 05:28 PM
Why is it that everyone is blaming Bush for the Chris Johnson splitout TD catch and I am the only one calling out DeMecco, isn't he in charge of the defensive leader? Shouldn't he know where everyone on the field is? Hell, for that matter Wilson, the free safety, should have seen it from his position. Either of these two guys should have gotten a time out called.

any of the veterans should have seen that. you are right to place blame on others but that doesn't preclude Bush getting criticized as well.

to be honest, Gary should get the most blame because he had to have seen that or at least someone on his staff. saving a 1st Half timeout? doubt it. he blew it and so did the rest of the team. luckily they made up for it with blood sweat and tears.

good job texans

Texan_Bill
09-21-2009, 05:31 PM
Why is it that everyone is blaming Bush for the Chris Johnson splitout TD catch and I am the only one calling out DeMecco, isn't he in charge of the defensive leader? Shouldn't he know where everyone on the field is? Hell, for that matter Wilson, the free safety, should have seen it from his position. Either of these two guys should have gotten a time out called.

Is it not Bush's responsibility to make sure his defense is prepared? How come he didn't recognize it from the sidelines and call timeout?? My point is everyone having to do with the defense, and the HC himself are culpable for that crap...

Texans#1Fan
09-21-2009, 05:32 PM
455.5 yards per game.

215 rushing yards per game.

190 yards per game on THIRD DOWN.

11-17 (65%) conversion rate on 3rd and 7 yards or more.

1 sack in 2 games.

I don't think it's close to being good


Frank needs to get a hold on this run defense!!! If they cannot stop the run next week, then we are in some serious trouble. How do you not stop a 3rd and long situation and let them run 90yards for a touchdown? That needs to stop. We need better DT to help with Super Mario. I feel like Mario is doing it all by himself on the line. Well, he is really.

Scooter
09-21-2009, 05:35 PM
Scooter we keep throwing some of our secondary under the bus, but if you look at the two long runs, nothing is really just the secondary's fault, the only thing is the obvious no cover on #28. The other plays are more towards our front 7 and leaving gaping holes and then having OL coming down the field against our secondary which is just bad.

I'm hoping that #40 works his way in to the secondary starting role, he's a ball hawk and seems to be a playmaker on the field.

this is true, our front had it's share of blown assignments which lead to big plays and i've read cushing takes a large portion of the blame on one of the touchdowns. our interior line still cant get it done so way too much is being put on our ends and linebackers. still though the third downs, the freebie against the jets, and the free pass to chris johnson are where we're having the most trouble IMO.

Texans#1Fan
09-21-2009, 05:36 PM
Is it not Bush's responsibility to make sure his defense is prepared? How come he didn't recognize it from the sidelines and call timeout?? My point is everyone having to do with the defense, and the HC himself are culpable for that crap...


We have the players in place on defense, I think this can be a really good defense. But, why are we giving up so many yardage on 3rd down, and so many yardage on the ground? Can someone tell me? I mean, its frustrating watching the games when the teams are in 3rd and long and they give up a first down. They want to be a playoff team but until they fix these problems they wont be.

Texans#1Fan
09-21-2009, 05:41 PM
for what it is worth. take away the 3 big plays and they had 240 yards of offense 90 rushing and 150 passing. i see this defense getting better as the year goes by. we will see.

At least this team showed some effort and I felt like they came together yesterday with a big win. They showed the rest of the NFL that they can play with the big boys. I mean, the Titans almost beat the Steelers in there opener. We beat a team that had one of the best records in football last year. So hopefully this will boost the teams overall play for the rest of the year and maybe into the playoffs if they can fix the defense.

HOU-TEX
09-21-2009, 05:43 PM
I'm happy we won, BUT

This team is dead last in running the ball and dead last in defending the run. Not much more to say than that, other than hoping it improves. If not, we aren't going anywhere.

Goldensilence
09-21-2009, 05:48 PM
Team got the win and the defense looked like it got enough pressure on Collins to make a difference in the outcome.

I think a lot of the problems are in the secondary, specifically the safeties. Wilson is not going to set the league on fire anytime soon and it sucks that Busing is the best SS we have to throw out there.

What's left out on the blame game around here is the FO's lack of commitment to solidifying the secondary thinking they can get away with it with a strong front 7.

Newflash. Not working. Got the win but the defense still has a long way to go before I'd put Texans defense and good in the same sentence.

Texans#1Fan
09-21-2009, 05:49 PM
What's interesting, if you watch the Chris Johnson TD catch play, is that he splits wide with exactly 15 seconds left on the play clock (which is when the coaches mike gets turned off, I think). I'd love to hear what Johnny Holland was yelling right at that point and I wonder what procedures are in place on the field once that communication device is turned off. I'm hoping against hope that some good questions, with follow-ups, are asked Kubiak about those broken plays in about 5 minutes.

Why can't we get a very good Defensive Cord? I mean seriously, when your defense is struggling to stop 3rd and longs, where should you point the blame? The Defense Cord, and coach kubiak has some explaining to do as well. If Kubiak does not make it a winning season, he may be looking for another job.

Specnatz
09-21-2009, 06:00 PM
any of the veterans should have seen that. you are right to place blame on others but that doesn't preclude Bush getting criticized as well.

to be honest, Gary should get the most blame because he had to have seen that or at least someone on his staff. saving a 1st Half timeout? doubt it. he blew it and so did the rest of the team. luckily they made up for it with blood sweat and tears.

good job texans

Is it not Bush's responsibility to make sure his defense is prepared? How come he didn't recognize it from the sidelines and call timeout?? My point is everyone having to do with the defense, and the HC himself are culpable for that crap...

I am not resolving the coaches from any responsibility, far from it. Since I have not seen a camera angle of where the coaches were in relationship to refs. I have seen to many times a coach as run half way down the sideline to call the timeout and I do not think there was time for that. The players are a lot closer to the refs not to mention they would be in direct view of the officials so if they are holding their hands up yelling for a timeout it would be seen easier by the officials.

Can a D Coordinator call a timeout?

TimeKiller
09-21-2009, 06:06 PM
Exactly. Or, how about the 2-5 yard out when he's giving a 7-10 yard cushion. Then he misses the tackle and a 2-5 yard out goes for a 1st down plus some. An "aggressive" front 7 doesn't do squat for you if your DB's give up quick and easy passes.

Yeah, he just seems like a warm body right now. Speaking of only ever being a warm body, how 'bout Molden being out with a hamstring? Cut. Busted 3rd round pick right there. Barber seems to be either out of the play (which I guess means he's doing something right if he's not being targeted) or the reason why a coverage completely fails. I think Reeves is actually going to give the secondary a lift, if even a small one. McCain has decent coverage skills and I look forward to his future (Quin too) but they just don't have the "ready to play" that other rookies like Cushing have...I guess that's why they were drafted as they were. Robinson seemed untargeted, I guess having such ample pickens elsewhere helps but we'll probably hear about how it was his "decent coverage with excellent run support skills" that makes him a "top 10 corner" and such. I don't remember his name called once, I guess that's a good thing. Anyway congrats to Dunta for shutting down the mighty Titans receivers.

Busing deserves the playing time and they're still going to hold out hope for Barber with a rotation. Wilson is still a decent player. Hopefully we've seen the last of C.C. Ferguson.

Second Honeymoon
09-21-2009, 06:08 PM
I am not resolving the coaches from any responsibility, far from it. Since I have not seen a camera angle of where the coaches were in relationship to refs. I have seen to many times a coach as run half way down the sideline to call the timeout and I do not think there was time for that. The players are a lot closer to the refs not to mention they would be in direct view of the officials so if they are holding their hands up yelling for a timeout it would be seen easier by the officials.

Can a D Coordinator call a timeout?

its Chris Johnson. if you cant keep up with where he is before the snap, you don't deserve to be coaching.

even the inbred yokels of Tennessee saw Johnson standing by himself on the sideline...there was a loud roar to get the play off before the Texans noticed the open man. they even saw it and needless to say the television audience saw it.

It seems like that happens a bit too much for my liking and it hasn't happened since Kubiak and his coaches came here. Just sayin. I still remember the fake punt play where he didn't even call a timeout and just rolled with it like its Madden 09.

Hooston Texan
09-21-2009, 06:27 PM
I like the analytical approach suggested earlier in the thread that the running/draw plays on third and really long are not a true measure of our run defense. On those downs, we are playing purely for the pass and trying to handle the run as best we can. A seven-yard run on our base defense is an unsuccesful play (from the D's standpoint), but a seven-yard run on 3rd and 12 is just fine ordinarily. A fifty-seven yard run, however, is a little tough to tolerate.

By my unofficial count, we have surrendured 1st downs on 3rd down (and fourth down) 18 out of 32 times in two games. That's a percentage of 56.3% which is pretty lousy. But, we are actually doing a much better job on shorter-yardage third downs than we are when the chains are extended.

On 3rd-and-7 or less, we've allowed the offense to convert 9 out of 20 opportunities for a 45% success percentage. On 3rd-and-8 or more, the offense has converted 9 out of 12 times for an astronomical success rate of 75%.

So we're getting off the field 55% of the time on 3rd and not-very-long but only 25% of the time on 3rd-and-long. I'm not sure where those percentages stack up against the league, but I'd guess we're in the lower half of the league (but not the bottom) on 3rd-and-not-long but so far in last place on 3rd-and-long that we probably couldn't see next-to-last with the Hubble telescope.

[In my best Barry Corbin voice:] Mr. Bush, after very careful consideration, sir, I've come to the conclusion that your new long-yardage defense system sucks.

ReliantTexan
09-21-2009, 06:47 PM
I'm not dicouraged by our defense (although not happy with it either). The bulk of our defense looks really good, it's literally those 3 or 4 terrible plays that are killing us. I like that even though we were gashed early on a few big plays, we played really well the last three quarters only allowing 10 points on the Titans last 10 possessions I believe, and the most important thing is they made key "stops". Yes they gave up alot of points but we're not winning this game if they didn't step up when they needed to, I remember several times last year where our offense came from behind and put us in a position to win only to see our defense let it slip away.

TimeKiller
09-21-2009, 07:39 PM
I forgot to mention (and probably some of you as well just thinking back on how much this was mentioned in the offseason) that the defense helped win the turnover battle. First just a pick, then at Titans a huge combo of a pick and int while the O not giving up any of the fumbles*. Winning the turnover battle is a big key to the game and the defense is doing it's part in that column. The pressure seems enough to rattle at the QBs cage but not enough to get that birdy. Connor Barwin looks like a really fast guy, just a really fast guy that is getting locked down. I like how they use him and how he can make the D look like 3-4 but it seems like the rush is still Mario or nothing. I'm liking the creativeness and willingness to try and exploit everyone's strengths but I guess more time is needed to gel. 1 thing I definitely like to see is the guys bouncing around before the snap trying to confuse the Oline but it seems like a few times they've confused themselves out of a play.


*Massive awareness points to Duane Brown this game on fumbles.

Lucky
09-21-2009, 09:01 PM
I don't think the defensive mistakes yesterday can be blamed on Frank Bush...
Bush is the defensive coordinator. Even he realizes that the responsibility of getting the players in the correct position is squarely on his shoulders.

If we do this a 3rd week in a row, I have a feeling Bush may get the ax early
That's not Gary Kubiak's style.

What's interesting, if you watch the Chris Johnson TD catch play, is that he splits wide with exactly 15 seconds left on the play clock (which is when the coaches mike gets turned off, I think).

Why is it that everyone is blaming Bush for the Chris Johnson splitout TD catch and I am the only one calling out DeMecco, isn't he in charge of the defensive leader?
Everyone knows that the head coach can call a timeout. Right?


to be honest, Gary should get the most blame because he had to have seen that or at least someone on his staff. saving a 1st Half timeout? doubt it. he blew it...
Doug from the Woodlands knows it.
I am not resolving the coaches from any responsibility, far from it. Since I have not seen a camera angle of where the coaches were in relationship to refs.
The line judge is standing on the sideline at the LOS. How far would Kubiak have to be from this spot to not be able to grab his attention?

Of course during the 2nd half of the Jets game, Kubiak stood about 20 yards from the LOS. Alone. I can't believe he did that again. Regardless, this paralyzed state Kubiak drifts into on Sundays is nothing new. His indecisiveness is crippling this team. As Vinny mentioned, the Texans defense is getting by on pure talent right now. The coaching is horrendous, to this point. Frank Bush did nothing to earn this promotion and has done nothing to vindicate it.

Specnatz, your bizarre criticism of DeMeco Ryans is laughable. He's the one person that is keeping this defense from becoming a complete joke. This is not the least talented defense in the NFL. Statistically, this defense is at the bottom of the league. That tells me that the coaches are not getting the players ready to play.

Fox
09-21-2009, 09:13 PM
That tells me that the coaches are getting the players ready to play.

Uhhhhh, say again? I was with you til there. ;)

Lucky
09-21-2009, 09:15 PM
Uhhhhh, say again? I was with you til there. ;)
Urgh, let me make a small edit.

JDizzle
09-21-2009, 10:44 PM
I am baffled that anyone would be encouraged or not alarmed by our defensive performance so far.

silvrhand
09-21-2009, 10:59 PM
I am baffled that anyone would be encouraged or not alarmed by our defensive performance so far.

Encouraged by:

- #40's playmaking ability in the game, screw practice he seems to be making the right moves in the game.
- #59, #56, and #54: Our LB is starting to really look good.. We could have a top 5 crew in by end of year.
- DL: is starting to show signs of life..
- DEF: starting to get some pressure which will show up when we play some some not so good QB's over the next couple weeks.

Alarmed by:

- DL: some of our guys get really out of position in our splits
- DEF: missing/blown assignments
- 3rd and long: god we suck on 3rd and long.. which is really the pain point so far this year for me.

GNTLEWOLF
09-21-2009, 11:50 PM
I am baffled that anyone would be encouraged or not alarmed by our defensive performance so far.

Amen:ok:

Hervoyel
09-21-2009, 11:57 PM
I just got done watching the game again and no, I can't tell you what every player was doing every down. I didn't "break it down". I just watched it and honestly, I think it looks better than it appears in the stats. The big plays are just horrible to watch happen but I can't look at them and not think that if we can just manage to cover Chris Johnson then he doesn't get the free TD. Now sure, maybe they drive the rest of the way and get it anyway but that's not the point. It's the glaring big play and the 3rd conversion that's killing me. We got some stops Sunday. Not enough of course but they did punt 5 times. We need to do better but there were signs of life. On the big 91 yard run that crack was open for an instant and it looked to me like Cushing almost got there in time. Maybe if he plays a couple of preseason games and gets up to speed faster he closes that hole up in time. We're just almost there so often.

I guess I'm saying that I do see progress. If it continues then maybe we have a chance of climbing up to respectable by the end of the year. Right now we're two games into the season. We have three starters who missed all of the preseason games in Cushing, Robinson, and Reeves. Reeves still isn't back. We already see Cushing and Robinson making strides. When Reeves comes back he'll have to go through the same process to get in sync with what everyone else is doing. I don't think we've seen our best defensive play yet by a long shot.

It's frustrating to wait but they need a little more time. Not "years", just a few weeks to get on the same page. The offense just needs to keep doing what they did Sunday. Intensity, no turnovers, don't quit. The defense will catch up eventually.

The Pencil Neck
09-22-2009, 12:21 AM
Personally, this is reminding me a lot of Kubiak's first year. The first 3 games that year, our defense was about as bad as a defense could be. And statistically, this defense is threatening to be just as bad.

But.

There are signs of life with this defense. They're not just giving up and letting guys do whatever they want. They're just making bit mistakes that are giving up few huge back breaking plays per game. Or at least, plays that would have broken our back a few years ago.

In Kubes' first year, the defense actually started to get it together after those first 3 games and played fairly respectably after that. If we'd have had any kind of an offense back then, we would have won a few more games.

So, I'm hopeful that we'll get this defense thing worked out. I prefer the direction it's going right now compared to over the past 3 years. We seem more aggressive. I like our LB play much more.

But we can't keep giving up 450 yards per game and expect to have a winning record. We HAVE to fix this as soon as possible.

Specnatz
09-22-2009, 12:34 AM
Of course during the 2nd half of the Jets game, Kubiak stood about 20 yards from the LOS. Alone. I can't believe he did that again. Regardless, this paralyzed state Kubiak drifts into on Sundays is nothing new. His indecisiveness is crippling this team. As Vinny mentioned, the Texans defense is getting by on pure talent right now. The coaching is horrendous, to this point. Frank Bush did nothing to earn this promotion and has done nothing to vindicate it.

Specnatz, your bizarre criticism of DeMeco Ryans is laughable. He's the one person that is keeping this defense from becoming a complete joke. This is not the least talented defense in the NFL. Statistically, this defense is at the bottom of the league. That tells me that the coaches are not getting the players ready to play.

You hate Kubiak and your view will always be in line that he is in some paralyded state as you call it.

Like I said the coaches deserve blame but I am not resolving players from blame as well. How is my criticism bizarre? He is the Captain of the D is he not? He calls out the defensive protect doesn't he? It is OK to call out Wilson when he did an o'lay tackle in a preseason game. Okoye has been criticized a lot and that is fine. D Rob has been criticized when he has a bad play (Titans game last year). So when the Captain of the D does not see the one player you have to account for move out of the backfield and is uncovered he should be blamed as well as the coaches. I also mentioned Wilson, who is the FS, he should have moved over and covered Jonson.

I see nothing wrong with placing blame on the parties who are involved and that is coaches and players.

Jackie Chiles
09-22-2009, 12:50 AM
On the big 91 yard run that crack was open for an instant and it looked to me like Cushing almost got there in time. Maybe if he plays a couple of preseason games and gets up to speed faster he closes that hole up in time. We're just almost there so often.

I am almost positive that you are mistaking Cushing for Bulman. I did the same thing but then I saw a replay that I could actually see jersey numbers and it was Bulman that came closest to ankle tackling Johnson. Cushing was on the other side of the play.

Hervoyel
09-22-2009, 12:56 AM
I am almost positive that you are mistaking Cushing for Bulman. I did the same thing but then I saw a replay that I could actually see jersey numbers and it was Bulman that came closest to ankle tackling Johnson. Cushing was on the other side of the play.

Could be. I'll have to look again.

YellerLotYeller
09-22-2009, 01:27 AM
Typical "break but don't bend" defense......

silvrhand
09-22-2009, 02:20 AM
Could be. I'll have to look again.

It was bulman, Cushing was on the backside and got sealed off by the center, which is expected, even if he had beaten that block the guard pulling would have sealed him off.

The Pencil Neck
09-22-2009, 02:36 AM
Typical "break but don't bend" defense......

Huh?

Are you being sarcastic? Because this is exactly the opposite of the bend don't break type of defense. This is the live by the sword/die by the sword type of defense.

76Texan
09-22-2009, 03:04 AM
Huh?

Are you being sarcastic? Because this is exactly the opposite of the bend don't break type of defense. This is the live by the sword/die by the sword type of defense.

That was exactly what he said!

They don't bend, they just break! :scarygirl:

Runner
09-22-2009, 08:31 AM
I'd like to pause for a moment and request that instead of "not resolving" the players and coaches we can start "not absolving" them. The first time I let it slide; the second time felt like someone stuck an icepick in my eye.

I wouldn't bring this up, but I think the defense is going to need a lot of absolution this year.

dalemurphy
09-22-2009, 09:14 AM
A couple people have touched on this, but one thing to keep in mind is that we are only two games into a new defense, with new coaches, and a new scheme... not to mention the fact that Dunta, Cushing missed the entire preseason. Antonio Smith and Busing weren't on the roster last year. Add to that the reliance on a number of rookies: Cushing, BMcCain, G. Quin, Barwin... and the general youth and inexperience on the defense: Adibi, Okam, Okoye, Robinson, Diles, Barber, etc... Most of these guys have only been in one scheme as a pro. I think it's natural that it takes some time to adapt.

Back to my original point when I started this thread, as bad as this defense has been, clearly there are signs that its play can improve a lot... and quickly. My guess is that in two weeks we will be 3-1 and the discussion will be whether the defense can look good against a real offense (Arizona) or if they just looked good because we were playing Jacksonville and Oakland. Anyone want to wager on that?

Kaiser Toro
09-22-2009, 09:37 AM
The type of busted plays due to a lack of communication is something that should never happen at this level. Communication is the great equalizer when relationships (player to player, coach to player) are in their infancy, and right now there is a failure to communicate. I am pretty sure that there is something going on in the locker room that is not being discussed.

As far as this thread goes we show small signs of a solid defense, and billboards of JV football. I simply cannot wax poetic about a defense that gives up these type of big plays, it is completely foolish in my opinion.

Next week's result is all that matters - no playoffs, no 3-1, no getting better, and no competing. Our goal is to be 2-1 and that is going to take 53 players to get it done, because their ain't a lot of help coming from the sidelines and the booth.

TexansFight
09-22-2009, 10:30 AM
If I was Kubiak, I would demote or fire Frank Bush immediately and elevate Ray Rhodes who is a proven and successful D. Coordinator and head coach in this league on an interim basis. I think that would fix some of the horrific errors we are seeing.

The defense is terrible and that can not be disproven. I do get what some are saying is that we are seeing the defense actually make some plays to give us some hope for potential improvement. We have been so used to the death by a 1,000 cuts in bend but don't break defenses that we are excited to see tackles for losses and QB hurries.

dalemurphy
09-22-2009, 10:38 AM
If I was Kubiak, I would demote or fire Frank Bush immediately and elevate Ray Rhodes who is a proven and successful D. Coordinator and head coach in this league on an interim basis. I think that would fix some of the horrific errors we are seeing.

The defense is terrible and that can not be disproven. I do get what some are saying is that we are seeing the defense actually make some plays to give us some hope for potential improvement. We have been so used to the death by a 1,000 cuts in bend but don't break defenses that we are excited to see tackles for losses and QB hurries.

Rhodes has health problems that preclude him from any serious responsibilities.

Regardless of whether Bush works out or not, demoting or firing him after two weeks would be a horrible move. Kubiak searched for a DC and settled on him, if he becomes thoroughly convinced after two weeks that he isn't the guy, then I don't think it says much about his decision-making abilities or his trust in them.

Fox
09-22-2009, 10:41 AM
Next week's result is all that matters - no playoffs, no 3-1, no getting better, and no competing. Our goal is to be 2-1 and that is going to take 53 players to get it done, because their ain't a lot of help coming from the sidelines and the booth.

Excellent post, particularly the above. Anyone chalking us up at 3-1 hasn't learned anything about this team in the past 7 years. Next week is a big, big game.

noxiousdog
09-22-2009, 10:44 AM
If I was Kubiak, I would demote or fire Frank Bush immediately and elevate Ray Rhodes who is a proven and successful D. Coordinator and head coach in this league on an interim basis. I think that would fix some of the horrific errors we are seeing.

What can Rhodes do as DC that he can't do as assistant DC?

I was not (and am not) a fan of Frank Bush, but introducing a another new defense isn't the solution for a team struggling with learning a new defense.

Hervoyel
09-22-2009, 10:52 AM
Excellent post, particularly the above. Anyone chalking us up at 3-1 hasn't learned anything about this team in the past 7 years. Next week is a big, big game.

Yes, it certainly is. We've reclaimed our dignity following the Jets loss so we know how they respond and play following disasters. That's nice and all but how are we going to respond and play following emotional highs?

Thomas Jones and Chris Johnson went buck wild on our defense so you know Maurice Jones-Drew can't wait for his big statistical day. The Jacksonville series is an odd one. We could easily be 1-2 next week if the Texans don't respond well to success.

The Pencil Neck
09-22-2009, 11:50 AM
That was exactly what he said!

They don't bend, they just break! :scarygirl:

I misread it. :)

76Texan
09-22-2009, 11:56 AM
A couple people have touched on this, but one thing to keep in mind is that we are only two games into a new defense, with new coaches, and a new scheme... not to mention the fact that Dunta, Cushing missed the entire preseason. Antonio Smith and Busing weren't on the roster last year. Add to that the reliance on a number of rookies: Cushing, BMcCain, G. Quin, Barwin... and the general youth and inexperience on the defense: Adibi, Okam, Okoye, Robinson, Diles, Barber, etc... Most of these guys have only been in one scheme as a pro. I think it's natural that it takes some time to adapt.

Back to my original point when I started this thread, as bad as this defense has been, clearly there are signs that its play can improve a lot... and quickly. My guess is that in two weeks we will be 3-1 and the discussion will be whether the defense can look good against a real offense (Arizona) or if they just looked good because we were playing Jacksonville and Oakland. Anyone want to wager on that?
What about the Jets?

dalemurphy
09-22-2009, 12:53 PM
What about the Jets?

1. The Jets were running the same basic system last year.
2. The Jets defense was pretty good last year.
3. They added players with experience in the exact system being implemented.
4. Ryan is an excellent defensive coach!

Runner
09-22-2009, 01:22 PM
What about the Jets?

1. The Jets were running the same basic system last year.
2. The Jets defense was pretty good last year.
3. They added players with experience in the exact system being implemented.
4. Ryan is an excellent defensive coach!

1. The Texans have said the same thing about their own defense.

2. Good point. The Texans were not.

3. That seems like a smart way to improve the defense. Did the Texans do that?

4. That seems like a smart move too. Did the Texans get one of those?

Texans_Chick
09-22-2009, 01:38 PM
1. The Jets were running the same basic system last year.
2. The Jets defense was pretty good last year.
3. They added players with experience in the exact system being implemented.
4. Ryan is an excellent defensive coach!

Here's something I talked about a little in a comment on my blog

Jets - Experience years of the Normal Starters

NT- 9
END - 9
T - 10
OLB - 7
WILL - 8
MIKE - 2
OLB - 7
LCB - 3
RCB - 8
S - 4
S - 4

Texans - Experience of various players who have been starters, starters really aren't too established with this squad

Smith - 6
Cody - 5
Zgonina - 17
Williams - 4
Cushing - 0
Ryans - 4
Diles - 3
Bennett - 3
Robinson - 6
Barber -2
Ferguson - 10
Wilson - 8

And extra corners to pick on:

Quin 0
McCain 0


It's young players leading old players. The best players haven't played for any other team, so they are trying to lead from a position of never having success. You can do it but it is hard--they haven't had any decent top of their career mentors their own selves. Anthony Weaver? Jeff Zgonina? Dunta Robinson had Aaron Glenn for a while.

And then are being coached up by a DC who has never been a DC.

It's hard to blame the current regime for the ages of the players. The best way to develop great players is from within the team--most teams are able to keep their best players who are worth the money due to how free agency works. We are paying now for the busts of the previous regime (and may be paying for Okoye if he doesn't come around).

Yup, everyone theoretically knows that an aggressive defense run by young players can lead to big plays, but yowsa, that was unspeakably ugly.

There is no culture of dominant defense for the Texans. There's been some good games in the mix but mostly futility. That's something hard to turn around--they've been able to do it some on offense, but the offense needs some help because they aren't going to be able to put 4 TDs up on teams every week.

76Texan
09-22-2009, 01:55 PM
The Jets were without the service of Shaun Ellis and Calvin Pace.
They used 3rd yr-man Devito and the rookie Westerman.

The Jets D was pretty good last year, but also inconsistent, giving up a chunk of points in quite a few games.

And just because Rex Ryan is a good Defensive mind doesn't exclude us from saying that the Texans D suck!

76Texan
09-22-2009, 02:09 PM
If the Texans were concerned about experience, they could have done a lot of things, for example:

1. Play Bentley instead of Cushing.
2. Give Molden more snaps instead of McCain or Quin; Busing over Barber.
3. Put either Quin or McCain on the PS and retain Deltha O'Neal for a few games.
4. Bring back Faggins, yeah! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

nero THE zero
09-22-2009, 02:17 PM
1. The Jets were running the same basic system last year.

I think you have this backwards.

The Jets are running a 3-4 as they did last year, which is the same, but the version they are running is entirely different. Last season they were running a derivitive of the Belichick bend-but-don't-break 3-4. This year they are running the agressive Ryan version. Same base, different philosophies.

The Texans, on the other hand, are running "the same scheme, with more aggression" according to most of their players.

Maybe someone can find the off-season quote from DeMeco that I paraphrased above. But, if anyone between the Jets and the Texans is running the same basic system, it is the Texans.

76Texan
09-22-2009, 02:32 PM
I think you have this backwards.

The Jets are running a 3-4 as they did last year, which is the same, but the version they are running is entirely different. Last season they were running a derivitive of the Belichick bend-but-don't-break 3-4. This year they are running the agressive Ryan version. Same base, different philosophies.

The Texans, on the other hand, are running "the same scheme, with more aggression" according to most of their players.

Maybe someone can find the off-season quote from DeMeco that I paraphrased above. But, if anyone between the Jets and the Texans is running the same basic system, it is the Texans.
I agree, but maybe DM was only talking about BASIC.
Except there were very little basics what they ran against us.
They weren't as exotic against the Pats though! :cool:

dalemurphy
09-22-2009, 02:39 PM
If the Texans were concerned about experience, they could have done a lot of things, for example:

1. Play Bentley instead of Cushing.
2. Give Molden more snaps instead of McCain or Quin; Busing over Barber.
3. Put either Quin or McCain on the PS and retain Deltha O'Neal for a few games.
4. Bring back Faggins, yeah! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif


The Texans are forward-looking though. They clearly think that starting Cushing over Bentley is going to get them where they want to go faster. They aren't competing for the week 2 championship. Regarding Molden, I think they wanted him to get more reps but he wasn't returning to form and then was reinjured.

All that being said, you have touched on my biggest issue with the Texan coaching staff. They seem to make a lot of quesionable internal personnel decisions. My worry is that these poor decisions aren't based on a specific philosophy but a result of poor self diagnosis.

For instance, Okoye continues to get more reps than any DT, while Robinson gets the fewest; the entire Dominique Barber fiasco; starting Ferguson at FS over Busing; starting Diles at SLB in the preseason instead of Bentley.....

among others. I just don't see a consistent pattern to suggest why these decisions are made. People argue that Okoye plays because he's a first rounder. But, Brown lost reps last season at LT even though he was better than Salaam. Bennett lost his job to Petey last season. Molden, a 3rd rounder, couldn't get on the field. Diles is starting over Adibi, etc...


Your point about the Texans being concerned about experience and making moves to take care of it assumes the Texans were concerned about experience. Perhaps they expected this steep learning curve and were willing to deal with these early season struggles and they think it is going to payoff as the season continues. It is possible that their plan and timetable is slightly different than yours!

dalemurphy
09-22-2009, 02:48 PM
I think you have this backwards.

The Jets are running a 3-4 as they did last year, which is the same, but the version they are running is entirely different. Last season they were running a derivitive of the Belichick bend-but-don't-break 3-4. This year they are running the agressive Ryan version. Same base, different philosophies.

The Texans, on the other hand, are running "the same scheme, with more aggression" according to most of their players.

Maybe someone can find the off-season quote from DeMeco that I paraphrased above. But, if anyone between the Jets and the Texans is running the same basic system, it is the Texans.

Regardless of what any of the players say, this defense is dramatically different than anything we've seen here since 2006. I've read those quotes too but the question asked them aren't public knowledge. His quote you are referring to was on houstontexans.com. The quote was preceded by something like: (about the differences in the defense from last year). The question that was specifically asked has a significant impact on how it is answered. If he was just being asked about alignment or language, that would explain his answer.

I agree that the Jets and Texans are making a similar transition. Both are maintaining their base alignments (jets in a 3-4, texans in a 4-3) but are becoming much more aggressive. The Jets, however, have transplanted a safety and an ILB that played with the same coach, under the identical system the year before, in a very successful environment. I'm sorry our defense isn't as good as the Jets. I don't know what else to say. Rex Ryan has proven to date to be a better defensive coach than Frank Bush. Okay?

76Texan
09-22-2009, 03:11 PM
The Texans are forward-looking though. They clearly think that starting Cushing over Bentley is going to get them where they want to go faster. They aren't competing for the week 2 championship. Regarding Molden, I think they wanted him to get more reps but he wasn't returning to form and then was reinjured.

All that being said, you have touched on my biggest issue with the Texan coaching staff. They seem to make a lot of quesionable internal personnel decisions. My worry is that these poor decisions aren't based on a specific philosophy but a result of poor self diagnosis.

For instance, Okoye continues to get more reps than any DT, while Robinson gets the fewest; the entire Dominique Barber fiasco; starting Ferguson at FS over Busing; starting Diles at SLB in the preseason instead of Bentley.....

among others. I just don't see a consistent pattern to suggest why these decisions are made. People argue that Okoye plays because he's a first rounder. But, Brown lost reps last season at LT even though he was better than Salaam. Bennett lost his job to Petey last season. Molden, a 3rd rounder, couldn't get on the field. Diles is starting over Adibi, etc...


Your point about the Texans being concerned about experience and making moves to take care of it assumes the Texans were concerned about experience. Perhaps they expected this steep learning curve and were willing to deal with these early season struggles and they think it is going to payoff as the season continues. It is possible that their plan and timetable is slightly different than yours!The problem with forward-looking is that we are no longer a new franchise.

The coaches need to play those who are ready on the first day.
If they don't have enough players, they need to bring in some FA(s) to fill the gap.

If they decide to play those who aren't ready, it can set back the whole season. Which was what quite a few of us had warned. We could have been 0-2, and the whole fan base would have turned.

dalemurphy
09-22-2009, 03:33 PM
The problem with forward-looking is that we are no longer a new franchise.

The coaches need to play those who are ready on the first day.
If they don't have enough players, they need to bring in some FA(s) to fill the gap.

If they decide to play those who aren't ready, it can set back the whole season. Which was what quite a few of us had warned. We could have been 0-2, and the whole fan base would have turned.

I'm glad they don't make decisions based on the fanbase. If they did, we'd have Vince Young on our team right now. But, I share your frustration with the way some of the off-season was handled. I was screaming for them to spend a few bucks to get someone like Sean Jones to compete at safety instead of handing over the job to Dominique Barber. Also, I thought Bentley should've been starting at SLB until Cushing could win the job. Regardless of those disagreements I have with the organization, I'm excited that this defense is making plays and see reasons to hope for significant improvement.