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View Full Version : Shut-Down Corner or Dominant Safety?


m5kwatts
09-18-2009, 03:48 PM
Your starting a franchise and you have a choice, a shut-down corner or a dominant ball-hawking safety... you pick

Vinny
09-18-2009, 03:52 PM
fans may pick a S but a real team would take the shut down corner. They are much, much, much harder to find.

Texan_Bill
09-18-2009, 03:59 PM
Same here Vinny, corner.

Corrosion
09-18-2009, 04:01 PM
With the way rules are structured now .... is there really such a thing as a shut down corner ?

Blake
09-18-2009, 04:05 PM
With the way rules are structured now .... is there really such a thing as a shut down corner ?

Hello? Deangelo Hall.

jk:mcnugget:

lostboy
09-18-2009, 04:05 PM
I'll take the corner...:thinking:

Then trade my 2nd rounder for this year and next to move up and take the safety.:tomato:

Mr. White
09-18-2009, 04:21 PM
I went safety. My man-crush on Troy Polumalu might explain it.

JCTexan
09-18-2009, 04:30 PM
How many shutdown corners would yall say are in the NFL? Nnamdi is the best corner in the league. Is Bailey still a shutdown corner, and would you guys consider Revis to be one?

I would pick shutdown corner, but besides Asomugha & possibly Revis, I can't really think of too many corners I would choose over Reed or Polamalu.

gtexan02
09-18-2009, 04:31 PM
Id take the safety. They are typically less expensive, and I think a Safety can be like the most versatile player on the defense. A guy like Polamalu can cover like a corner, tackle like a linebacker, and rush the passer like a defensive lineman. Because they can go everywhere on the field, you can't gameplan against them nearly as easily as you can a corner.


2009 pro bowl safeties:
Adrian Wilson - superbowl
Brian Dawkins - playoffs
Nick Collins - GB, missed playoffs
Ed Reed - playoffs
Polamalu - super bowl champs
Hope - playoffs
5/6 safeties in the playoffs, both superbowl teams had a probowl safety

2009 probowl corners:
Nnamdi - Oakland, missed playoffs
Finnegan - playoffs
Revis - Jets, missed playoffs
Woodson - missed playoffs
Winfield - missed playoffs
Samuel - playoffs
Barber - missed playoffs
Harris - missed playoffs
2/8 corners in the playoffs. Neither superbowl team had a probowl safety


2 best corners in the game in my opinion over the last few years: Nnamdi and Bailey. Neither have had much success.
2 best safeties? Probably Reed and Polamalu. Maybe Dawkins. All have been regular contenders

A good safety correlates with success. Read into it what you will

TEXANS84
09-18-2009, 04:33 PM
The Raiders have a shutdown corner and consistantly miss the playoffs.

The Ravens (Reed) and Steelers (Polamalu) have great safetys and are always in the playoffs or have dominant defenses.

chicagotexan2
09-18-2009, 04:34 PM
How many shutdown corners would yall say are in the NFL? Nnamdi is the best corner in the league. Is Bailey still a shutdown corner, and would you guys consider Revis to be one?

I would pick shutdown corner, but besides Asomugha & possibly Revis, I can't really think of too many corners I would choose over Reed or Polamalu.

Revis? Well I'm sure glad we took an all world DT instead of that sorry bumb. With a stout DL like we have we don't need a great CB. Is the SARCASM icon really necessary?

Ckw
09-18-2009, 04:48 PM
Id take the safety. They are typically less expensive, and I think a Safety can be like the most versatile player on the defense. A guy like Polamalu can cover like a corner, tackle like a linebacker, and rush the passer like a defensive lineman. Because they can go everywhere on the field, you can't gameplan against them nearly as easily as you can a corner.


2009 pro bowl safeties:
Adrian Wilson - superbowl
Brian Dawkins - playoffs
Nick Collins - GB, missed playoffs
Ed Reed - playoffs
Polamalu - super bowl champs
Hope - playoffs
5/6 safeties in the playoffs, both superbowl teams had a probowl safety

2009 probowl corners:
Nnamdi - Oakland, missed playoffs
Finnegan - playoffs
Revis - Jets, missed playoffs
Woodson - missed playoffs
Winfield - missed playoffs
Samuel - playoffs
Barber - missed playoffs
Harris - missed playoffs
2/8 corners in the playoffs. Neither superbowl team had a probowl safety


2 best corners in the game in my opinion over the last few years: Nnamdi and Bailey. Neither have had much success.
2 best safeties? Probably Reed and Polamalu. Maybe Dawkins. All have been regular contenders

A good safety correlates with success. Read into it what you will

Exactly my thoughts. You can't deny the simple fact that almost every good team has a dominant safety. What have the Texans ALWAYS lacked? A dominant safety.

PapaL
09-18-2009, 05:23 PM
Safety.

A great FS/SS can make a so so CB good/very good.

Scooter
09-18-2009, 05:43 PM
a safety has so many more roles and responsibilities on the field that his play is more determining of how the defense plays than one cornerback. polomalu for example is as good in man to man as many of the best cornerbacks, as well as centerfielder or blitzing linebacker or any other role the specific play requires. a great cornerback however is very defined and doesnt play near as large a part in the direct outcome because even the best cornerbacks need help from the pass rush and safety support to keep up with top receivers like andre johnson. the jets for example always had a safety shaded toward andre even though revis is considered a top tier cornerback.

m5kwatts
09-18-2009, 06:55 PM
gtexan02 made the best point, safetys are way cheaper than shut down corners. And I can't help but think, what good does a $25mil CB do for you against guys like Brady who spread the wealthy to all his receivers so well? Safetys can take away from another teams running game way more than a CB can as well.

eriadoc
09-18-2009, 09:58 PM
fans may pick a S but a real team would take the shut down corner. They are much, much, much harder to find.

Yep. We need a safety right now more than we need a corner, but that wasn't the question. As a start-up, you take the CB.

eriadoc
09-18-2009, 10:00 PM
gtexan02 made the best point, safetys are way cheaper than shut down corners.

And why are they cheaper? Because they aren't so damn rare. If you have a chance at a true shutdown CB, you take him. Safeties can be had a little easier.

kastofsna
09-18-2009, 10:14 PM
definitely the corner. they're not just more rare, they're more valuable.

gtexan02
09-18-2009, 10:18 PM
Who cares if they are more rare or not. One correlates with wins, one does not. Easy choice, Im surprised so many people on here want the shutdown corner

Wolf6151
09-18-2009, 10:19 PM
Definetly the shut down cornerback, they're much harder to find and you guarantee that at least one WR is shut down.

ObsiWan
09-18-2009, 10:54 PM
Take the ball-hawking, hard-hitting safety.
The CB helps you with the passing game - and only on one side of the field.
The safety helps you stop the run and gets turnovers in the passing game.

GuerillaBlack
09-18-2009, 11:03 PM
fans may pick a S but a real team would take the shut down corner. They are much, much, much harder to find.

Yep, corner.

ObsiWan
09-18-2009, 11:42 PM
Can I get a two-fer?
:D

Vinny
09-18-2009, 11:56 PM
It's amazing that the poll is running Safety 2 to 1. You guys make me sad. I'm gonna have to peek in and see all who voted S. :cow:

LonerATO
09-19-2009, 12:06 AM
For those watching the game tonight you can get a taste of Kyle Wilson CB Boise State. I have been following this guy since last year and I think he could be a CB the Texans could draft in the 2-3 rd. I chose a Safety since that is a bigger need at the moment and has been for awhile. On a side note I have loved Pat Hills coaching style for years and you can never hear what he is saying after a game since his voice is gone, so if Kube's is gone next year I would love to have Handlebar Hill here.

NitroGSXR
09-19-2009, 12:10 AM
It's amazing that the poll is running Safety 2 to 1. You guys make me sad. I'm gonna have to peek in and see all who voted S. :cow:

Why can I ring off many many great safeties off the top of my head and I have to think hard for a CB. Outside of Deion Sanders and maybe Champ Bailey... I can't think of a player who had more impact than a Steve Atwater, Bubba McDowell, Ronnie Lott, Brian Dawkins, and so on and on. CB is the position that I have to think long and hard about. Cris Dishman suddenly just came to mind. Memories of the powder blue days. Lol.

Why is that? My question is not in jest. It's sincere. Why am I remembering the safeties more throughout history of the NFL rather than CBs.

I have not voted in the poll yet. I'm trying to understand why I would want to take a CB over a safety.

GuerillaBlack
09-19-2009, 12:15 AM
Because there aren't as many shutdown CBs? There are a ton of safeties.

NitroGSXR
09-19-2009, 12:22 AM
Because there aren't as many shutdown CBs? There are a ton of safeties.

I don't see it. My understanding is that a defensive backfield generally consists of 2 CBs and 2 safeties. Sounds to me like there are as many CBs as there are safeties.

If we're talking about Asmougha, I think we're seeing history in the making watching him play. He's absolutely one of the best to ever play the game. He just very well may be the elite of the elite. Even so... I don't see him making the same hits that a safety does.

I'm just trying to understand what all the snazzle and pop there is about a shutdown CB. gtexan made a pretty good argument that's pretty hard to overlook.

GuerillaBlack
09-19-2009, 12:28 AM
I'm saying there are more shutdown safeties than CBs.

NitroGSXR
09-19-2009, 12:41 AM
I'm saying there are more shutdown safeties than CBs.

More CBs have been inducted into the hall of fame though. See... this is why I'm trying to understand what it is that I'm devaluing about a shutdown CB as opposed to safeties.

kastofsna
09-19-2009, 01:15 AM
dominant safeties make the highlight reels a lot more than shutdown corners. it's the nature of the position. that's why you remember those names more.

Scooter
09-19-2009, 05:35 AM
It's amazing that the poll is running Safety 2 to 1. You guys make me sad. I'm gonna have to peek in and see all who voted S. :cow:

:dancer:

i've been saying the same thing for years while lobbying for a legit safety. a good safety can protect a bad cornerback. a good cornerback still needs a good safety. revis, asomugha, finnegan, bailey, robinson, taylor, winfield, and any other cornerback will NOT be left on an island against the best number 1's in the league. a great safety can replace a great cornerback ... not the other way around. polomalu often plays man to man against the #1 receiver in lebeau's system. when does nnamdi line up at mike?

perception is distorting reality as GT's post clearly shows. the patriots biggest weaknesses in their superbowl runs was what? their cornerbacks. steelers? it damn sure aint their safeties. who wants to play the colts with bob sanders active? eagles with dawkins?

aaaaaand those championship cornerbacks are? "i think his name was dave or bill or something". since we're the bronco's offspring ... start your franchise with champ bailey or steve atwater? if the option presents itself of a player who can affect 20 plays or one who affects 7 ... choose wisely.

Goatcheese
09-19-2009, 05:55 AM
I'd take Aso over any safety in the league, and over all but a few of the greatest safeties of all time.

He shuts down half the field, not just in coverage, but in run support as well. An elite safety is a piece of the puzzle, but a shutdown cornerback is the cornerstone.

The only positions on the team that are more important are QB and LT.

Scooter
09-19-2009, 06:18 AM
He shuts down half the field, not just in coverage, but in run support as well.

i cant in good faith agree with that. what cornerback shuts down his side of the field without safety AND pass rush support? the lowly texans have andre johnson and you cant name a cornerback on an island against him for more than a couple max blitz plays. how many cornerbacks are big in run support? i'll give you dunta and winfield ... neither of which are deemed shutdown specialists. anybody else? nnamdi plays a side and had safety support against AJ ... does that make him the end all of coverage? why didnt we move AJ to the other side and throw for 400 yards?

Goatcheese
09-19-2009, 06:55 AM
i cant in good faith agree with that. what cornerback shuts down his side of the field without safety AND pass rush support? the lowly texans have andre johnson and you cant name a cornerback on an island against him for more than a couple max blitz plays. how many cornerbacks are big in run support? i'll give you dunta and winfield ... neither of which are deemed shutdown specialists. anybody else? nnamdi plays a side and had safety support against AJ ... does that make him the end all of coverage? why didnt we move AJ to the other side and throw for 400 yards?

We did move AJ to the other side. Aso shut down his side and they rolled coverage to AJ to swamp him.

I would say Aso is better than D-Rob in run support also. He doesn't have the same highlight real of bone jarring hits, but when he tackles people they actually stop or go backward, where as D-Rob tends to hit them with his shoulder and bounces off. It helps that he's 3 inches taller and 35 lbs heavier. He's like AJ playing corner.

ObsiWan
09-19-2009, 06:55 AM
i cant in good faith agree with that. what cornerback shuts down his side of the field without safety AND pass rush support? the lowly texans have andre johnson and you cant name a cornerback on an island against him for more than a couple max blitz plays. how many cornerbacks are big in run support? i'll give you dunta and winfield ... neither of which are deemed shutdown specialists. anybody else? nnamdi plays a side and had safety support against AJ ... does that make him the end all of coverage? why didnt we move AJ to the other side and throw for 400 yards?

You know, that's a very excellent question.
How often, if ever, do we move A.J. around to adjust to the coverage? If the other guys put their so-called "shutdown corner" on him, why don't we move him to the other side or into the slot. The only time I see him moved is when we're gonna run and we want his size to help the running game.

Sorry, that's off topic but, it is a most interesting question.

Back to topic, I'm still of the opinion that a ball-hawking safety is more valuable than a "shutdown CB". If I have a choice between starting my team with Ed Reed or Asomugha, I'm taking Ed Reed.

Scooter
09-19-2009, 07:19 AM
We did move AJ to the other side. Aso shut down his side and they rolled coverage to AJ to swamp him.

I would say Aso is better than D-Rob in run support also. He doesn't have the same highlight real of bone jarring hits, but when he tackles people they actually stop or go backward, where as D-Rob tends to hit them with his shoulder and bounces off. It helps that he's 3 inches taller and 35 lbs heavier. He's like AJ playing corner.

this is my arguement. if aso's so great, what's the point in rolling coverage? stick him on andre and end it. he was never 1v1 against andre even when the raiders blitzed. he didnt follow dre on the opposite side of the field. why were the raiders 28th in pass defense last season and a complete laughing stock on defense? since a safety needs to shade to aso's side anyways against bigtime recievers, would a monster safety have a bigger effect on the game if the cornerback is being shaded anyways?

Scooter
09-19-2009, 07:27 AM
How often, if ever, do we move A.J. around to adjust to the coverage?

we line him up at every position, but move or "motion" is lost on our 14 year old offensive coordinator. apparently it tells schaub more about the defense to motion david anderson.

Texan JBZ
09-19-2009, 07:39 AM
Can I get a two-fer?
:D

Sure can. His name is Eric Berry. Best of both worlds in one package!

Scooter
09-19-2009, 07:41 AM
....

HJam72
09-19-2009, 08:26 AM
My answer to the question is corner, but I think this team needs the safety a little more right now.

NitroGSXR
09-19-2009, 08:44 AM
I'd take Aso over any safety in the league, and over all but a few of the greatest safeties of all time.

He shuts down half the field, not just in coverage, but in run support as well. An elite safety is a piece of the puzzle, but a shutdown cornerback is the cornerstone.

The only positions on the team that are more important are QB and LT.

Half of the field I think is a little bit of an exaggeration. I believe there to be three parts to a football field from a QBs eyes. That's the left, middle, and right part. Asomougha can only shut down one end at a time. A safety can shut down the middle which just may be that much more important. More runs are tossed up the middle. Not only do they shut down the middle but sometimes they are also able to help at either end since they're backed up out there.

So far, I've come to understand that shutdown CBs are rarer than safeties yet the football HOF has inducted 13 CBs as opposed to 7 safties.

I'm not really buying the 'nature of the position' argument too much yet. I gotta go with what I think works. I think I'll take a Ronnie Lott over Asomougha any day.

I still have not voted. I still hope to hear other reasons as to why I'd want to take a CB. I really like most of you guys' arguments whether it be for a CB or a safety. Keep 'em coming.

Scooter
09-19-2009, 09:38 AM
oh well.

HJam72
09-19-2009, 12:01 PM
you mentioned the hall of fame favoring cb's to safeties. the draft favors cornerbacks. price tags favor cornerbacks. vinny says a smart coach wants a cornerback first and i'll be the first to say that vinny knows more than most professionals. fans want a safety because we're biased by the near impossibly poor play in houston for so long.

in every possible reach ... of the option of a great player, which is more apt to directly influence the defense and win games? in superbowl down through the playoffs, are safeties or cornerbacks more influential? which players in those 3-4 games have the biggest impacts each season?

maybe i'm just dumb but in the last decade the highlights to me have been polomalu, reed, dawkins, hope, wilson, harrison and in general the play of safeties more so than the cornerbacks they're protecting (several who are having trouble landing teams - how's chris mcallster doing?). indy had the worst defense in the NFL but peyton got them into the show ... what happened to that defense when bob sanders returned for the playoffs? the steelers ... dude seriously polomalu is arguably the best player in the NFL at any position. dawkins was THE eagles defense - nothing they did was possible without him. ed reed needs nothing from me.

you who claim cornerbacks, i need a better example than the leader of the 28th ranked passing defense. bueller? the best arguement for a great championship cornerback in recent memory is deon. no really, deon. i hate deon.

Actually, I hate Deon too; but, that's who I was thinking of. If you can shut down one WR with one corner (especially if it's your opponent's best WR), it changes the game. I won't argue any further, though, because I certainly DON'T know more than most professionals....I mean except for guys like Pendry....you know. :)

LonerATO
09-19-2009, 04:44 PM
Kyle Wilson and Thurmond Thomas III look to be good 2-3 rd CB the Texans could look at, if D-Rob leaves and they don't pay Reeves

NitroGSXR
09-19-2009, 04:45 PM
Who is Deon? Are you guys talking about Deion Sanders?

I'm obviously a little confused.

Goatcheese
09-19-2009, 05:58 PM
Actually, I hate Deon too; but, that's who I was thinking of. If you can shut down one WR with one corner (especially if it's your opponent's best WR), it changes the game. I won't argue any further, though, because I certainly DON'T know more than most professionals....I mean except for guys like Pendry....you know. :)

Sanders was a truly great cover man, but as an overall player he was completely one dimensional on defense. He made P-Burnt look tough and aggressive in run support.

Half of the field I think is a little bit of an exaggeration. I believe there to be three parts to a football field from a QBs eyes. That's the left, middle, and right part. Asomougha can only shut down one end at a time. A safety can shut down the middle which just may be that much more important. More runs are tossed up the middle. Not only do they shut down the middle but sometimes they are also able to help at either end since they're backed up out there.

So far, I've come to understand that shutdown CBs are rarer than safeties yet the football HOF has inducted 13 CBs as opposed to 7 safties.

I'm not really buying the 'nature of the position' argument too much yet. I gotta go with what I think works. I think I'll take a Ronnie Lott over Asomougha any day.

I still have not voted. I still hope to hear other reasons as to why I'd want to take a CB. I really like most of you guys' arguments whether it be for a CB or a safety. Keep 'em coming.

"Half of the field" is just an expression. It's basically saying that in your base defense with one WR on his side that you don't need to roll coverage over there to support him. He's got it covered.

Obviously I don't mean that he can literally shut down an area 360 feet long and 80 feet wide all by himself.

As far as taking Lott over Aso, that's like saying you would take Lawrence Taylor over Mario Williams. He plays an ultimately less important position, but he's one of the all time greats at any position, vs just one of the best right now.

devo-x
09-20-2009, 08:47 PM
Another vote for Safety

Mr teX
09-20-2009, 09:02 PM
With the way rules are structured now .... is there really such a thing as a shut down corner ?

no its not, just a myth much like bigfoot. In reality they're considered shutdown because teams just decide not to go at them for a variety of reasons other than they're great coverage skills...most times, it's b/c there's a bum on the other side or nearby. Plus, a good qb can pass against any cb. I mean look at us..... the titans & jets have hardly thrown dunta's way b/c Bennett, Quinn & McCain are all less dangerous, or just down right garbage. & i don't think anyone considers Dunta a shut down corner.

Having said that, I'll take the safety please. & i'm not saying that b/c we need one in the worst way. I'm saying it b/c a safety is free to make plays all over the field. Imagine if we had a Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed or Adrian Wilson roaming all over the field making plays...