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View Full Version : Winston explains challenges against the 3-4


barrett
09-17-2009, 01:16 PM
TC did a phone interview with Winston and asked him to explain some of the technical challenges our ZBS faces against the 3-4 defense. Historically, in the Kubiak / Gibbs era we have struggled at times against this scheme (evidenced by our performance on Sunday).

He talks about how the linemen in a 3-4 don't attack and that sort of renders the zone scheme ineffective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVocXGnopiA&feature=player_embedded


here's my response: Steph, Thanks immensely for providing us with this sort of "X's and O's" stuff. These guys are incredibly gifted athletes who at times can look dominant. It's hard for us as fans sometimes when we don't understand the science of the game. We see the linemen performing badly last Sunday and there is a tendency to say "the's guys are bums" but when you learn about the challenges they face it helps to, at the very least, give some kind of explanation for the performance that we saw. Instead of saying things like "these guys are soft" or "these guys aren't good enough" we can look at it with a more critical eye and look into the scheme itself and perhaps ask "why didn't we alter our scheme" When Kubiak says repeatedly "This is on me." You can believe him a bit more.

I believe in Gary Kubiak. I think his philosophy is to scheme less for each team and rather follow the Alex Gibbs approach of do what we do extremely well and make the defense adapt to us. However it's clear to me that last Sunday the Jets were the team that was doing what they do extremely well. We should have adapted to them. It's somewhat disconcerting when that's the case for a team with a new Coach and we've been running this system (quite well I might add) for 3 years. Is it Sunday yet?

HTown2ATX
09-17-2009, 01:47 PM
As another poster already said on some other thread.......the zone blocking scheme has gone extinct, it's light extinguished from the universe....yet kubiak just finished installing it here in Houston. I wish Kubiak could have come up with his own stuff. I know that he was always around Denver and he thought that was the way to win, but jeez, he should have come up with his own schemes by now for being so "creative" of a mind on offense.

Furthermore, I know that this is really oversimplifying it, but, at it's core, football is all about blocking and tackling and running and catching. Lately we have done none of those things well, especially blocking. We have such small lineman. I think it was borderline assault what happened to myers sunday.

this was the texans effort last week: :lion:

very much of the poof variety

barrett
09-17-2009, 02:07 PM
By "extinct" you mean completely capable of gaining large chunks of yardages repeatedly? Consistently being in the top 5 in rushing and oh I don't know, posting record breaking statistics for the skill players?!?

That's ridiculous. Honestly, you've chosen to rehash an idiotic comment that someone else said and made it your own?

God I love the Houston fan base....

Thank god for beer at 2 pm.

nero THE zero
09-17-2009, 02:10 PM
Zone plays are run by nearly every team in the league and the zone scheme is run by a good number of them.

You can be critical of our version of it, our inability/unwillingness to adjust it, or our ineffectiveness in running it against certain defensive schemes, but to say that it's extinct is fallacious and ignorant.

dalemurphy
09-17-2009, 02:12 PM
TC did a phone interview with Winston and asked him to explain some of the technical challenges our ZBS faces against the 3-4 defense. Historically, in the Kubiak / Gibbs era we have struggled at times against this scheme (evidenced by our performance on Sunday).

He talks about how the linemen in a 3-4 don't attack and that sort of renders the zone scheme ineffective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVocXGnopiA&feature=player_embedded


here's my response:

here's my response!:

ADJUST and do something different!

blitz90
09-17-2009, 02:24 PM
[/B]

here's my response!:

ADJUST and do something different!

Exactly what I was about to say. The fact that they couldn't adjust during the Jets game made me want to put my fist through the TV.

BigBull17
09-17-2009, 02:53 PM
[/B]

here's my response!:

ADJUST and do something different!

You have to do what you do and make people adapt to you, but when that's not working, you have to adapt to survive.

badboy
09-17-2009, 03:06 PM
By "extinct" you mean completely capable of gaining large chunks of yardages repeatedly? Consistently being in the top 5 in rushing and oh I don't know, posting record breaking statistics for the skill players?!?
That's ridiculous. Honestly, you've chosen to rehash an idiotic comment that someone else said and made it your own?

God I love the Houston fan base....

Thank god for beer at 2 pm.Thought you were talking about the RUn & Shoot! What ever happened to it in the NFL?

badboy
09-17-2009, 03:08 PM
I am amazed that the Jets were able to install the 3-4 just minutes before the game and do so well. I think if we had known a couple weeks ago that would be their defense, our coaches would have game planned for it.

eriadoc
09-17-2009, 03:21 PM
I don't think the ZBS is extinct, but I think there's evidence to argue that its best days as a base offense may be behind it. You still see the Run & Shoot in the NFL; it's just that no one runs it as their base offense. The ZBS may very well be headed that way. It's useful in many situations, but defenses have also adapted to it and made it less useful in many situations. Between the 20s, against a 4-3 look, it probably can still be very effective. But against a 3-4 or in the red zone, maybe not so much.

Every innovation has a shelf life before it has to evolve and adapt to survive.

HTown2ATX
09-17-2009, 03:43 PM
By "extinct" you mean completely capable of gaining large chunks of yardages repeatedly? Consistently being in the top 5 in rushing and oh I don't know, posting record breaking statistics for the skill players?!?

That's ridiculous. Honestly, you've chosen to rehash an idiotic comment that someone else said and made it your own?

God I love the Houston fan base....

Thank god for beer at 2 pm.

Well, the main point I was trying to make was that are lineman are too small, obviously I did not get that off correctly in my original post. I would just rather have some guys that are bigger and can still move their feet some. In the end, I still stick by my point that Kubiak needs to get better at making adjustments.

And no matter how you come down on the ZBS argument....that still was a horrible performance. Just sayin.

Insideop
09-17-2009, 03:44 PM
I don't think the ZBS is extinct, but I think there's evidence to argue that its best days as a base offense may be behind it. You still see the Run & Shoot in the NFL; it's just that no one runs it as their base offense. The ZBS may very well be headed that way. It's useful in many situations, but defenses have also adapted to it and made it less useful in many situations. Between the 20s, against a 4-3 look, it probably can still be very effective. But against a 3-4 or in the red zone, maybe not so much.

Every innovation has a shelf life before it has to evolve and adapt to survive.

We did pretty well with it last year as our base offense (Slaton 1200+ yds) and everyone was hailing Gibbs as a genius. Why is it suddenly so bad now? Why have NFL defenses suddenly caught up with the ZB scheme now and not earlier in the decade when Denver and Atlanta were both using them as base offenses?

Thorn
09-17-2009, 03:54 PM
zone, schome, what difference does it make when you can't score more points than the other team?

MightyTExan
09-17-2009, 03:57 PM
What I'm seeing and what I'm hearing are two different things.............
Actions speak louder than words.....................


*sigh* It's gonna be a long season.

badboy
09-17-2009, 04:04 PM
We did pretty well with it last year as our base offense (Slaton 1200+ yds) and everyone was hailing Gibbs as a genius. Why is it suddenly so bad now? Why have NFL defenses suddenly caught up with the ZB scheme now and not earlier in the decade when Denver and Atlanta were both using them as base offenses?Chewing up huge yardage does not necessarily lead to lots of points.

Thorn
09-17-2009, 04:10 PM
Chewing up huge yardage does not necessarily lead to lots of points.

And besides that, you need more than a high scoring offense to win a super bowl anyway. You need a very stout defense to make it that far, and we don't have either right now.

eriadoc
09-17-2009, 04:19 PM
We did pretty well with it last year as our base offense ...

We did? Last I checked, we racked up a bunch of meaningless yards and stalled when it counted in the red zone and on 3rd and short. Which is pretty much my point, if you think about it - situational usefulness.

leebigeztx
09-17-2009, 04:22 PM
The zone scheme is run by most teams. GB,philly, even pitts are zone blocking teams. If a guy is whooping the other guy,schemes won't save you. It works and it has shown it will work when executed, but the coaching staff for the first few games need to be fluid. They will see things they've never seen before, that's a fact.

Texans_Chick
09-17-2009, 04:31 PM
The zone scheme is run by most teams. GB,philly, even pitts are zone blocking teams. If a guy is whooping the other guy,schemes won't save you. It works and it has shown it will work when executed, but the coaching staff for the first few games need to be fluid. They will see things they've never seen before, that's a fact.

Pretty much. Everyone runs some zone and some man. I think hearing that interview combined with the one he has on his own website makes a lot of sense.

One of the difficulties of running the zone is that teams get better at it the more they do it. That's true of any line, but especially with zone. Involves a lot of cooperative play. It's hard keeping lines together and healthy. It also involves good teaching.

What we saw on the field is not what they were supposed to be doing. Myers is not supposed to be handling Jenkins one on one. Mistakes were made /passive tense.

m5kwatts
09-17-2009, 04:57 PM
My theory is zone-blocking is at a disadvantage vs. the 3-4 because there's one more linebacker standing up with eyes on how the lines develop the play. The one-cut and go thing is less effective when there's one more guy on the defense filling a gap with their eyes on how the play is developing.

TimeKiller
09-17-2009, 05:05 PM
Winston sure can explain how to remedy facing 3/4 as a zone team....

Accomplishing the same however....not so much.

barrett
09-17-2009, 05:13 PM
It's entirely possible that they adapted and it's failed miserably. That may be why you saw more man on, situations like Meyers'. I didn't get to DVR the game until it was out of hand so I have no reference to go on. This isn't even speculation, I'm just thinking out loud.

In some games against the bigger more physical teams we seem to have a hard time in pass protection regardless if it's a 4-3 / 3-4 or what ever. But that's attributed to the smaller linemen. It's a given. The offense is designed to react in that situation and read the secondary and get the ball out quickly. Not very exciting, but in theory, effective.

We seemed to be missing assignments more than just getting pushed back. There appeared to be some scheming going on that was causing confusion.

It could explain why Kubiak reacted the way he did in response to all the mistakes. "But I look at it, and some of the things that we were asking them to do, some of the confusion we had on the field, and I'm just very disappointed on my part."

Texan JBZ
09-17-2009, 05:13 PM
People, stop it with the nonsense against the ZBS. Its one of the best run schemes there is. I can understand where E-Dub is coming from on the difficulty of zone blocking a 3-4. 3-4 linemans job is to tie up blockers and let those two inside backers run. Plus, with such large lineman 2-gapping, its hard to get to those second level blocks. The 3-4 is also a balanced defensive set which helps to take away the cutback and the weakside run. That's why so many teams are converting to 3-4. For my money, the best defense is a disciplined gap control 4-3, but that's me.

GNTLEWOLF
09-17-2009, 05:19 PM
I am amazed that the Jets were able to install the 3-4 just minutes before the game and do so well. I think if we had known a couple weeks ago that would be their defense, our coaches would have game planned for it.

The award for best post on any board goes to...:thumbup
Rep

Mr. White
09-17-2009, 05:42 PM
I just got home from work, so I just got to hear Winston's take on it. I really appreciate how accountable and down-to-earth the guy is. Hands down, he's one of my favorite guys on the team.

Now on to the matter at hand....I started the ZBS thread on gameday. I never called it extinct, but I did say that the game's evolved. It was great back in the late 90's when Denver had Mark Schlereth and Dan Neal. Those days are over. Teams mix it up more nowadays for this very reason.

I just don't think the way that we run the ZBS is effective. There were some positive results last season, but I don't remember anyone saying that we finally turned the corner at Offensive Line.

I thought last season's offensive line play was an improvement over the previous season, but I don't see improvement now. Not to mention that DC's all over the league have even more film now on more creative ways to kill our QB.

CoastalTexan
09-17-2009, 09:09 PM
Are we cut blocking as much as Denver and Atlanta did under Gibbs?