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Mr. White
09-13-2009, 03:22 PM
Get a real blocking system already. Any good defense always eats our lunch.

It might have worked 10 years ago, but those days are over. The game's evolved.

We always end up getting manhandled by bigger D-Linemen.

Wolf6151
09-13-2009, 03:50 PM
You mean this isn't the 80's and it's not Denver.

Seems like Kubiak is stuck in the 80's and 90's in Denver and that's all he knows so he brings that system here along with all the rejected players from Denver. Our O-line is pathetic today.

mussop
09-13-2009, 04:03 PM
I have always said I hate systems that prefer less talented or less physically gifted players. Games are won in the trenches and we arent ever going to be a team that can control the LOS in the playoffs with the OL we have now. Im starting to think maybe we should start over.

LonerATO
09-13-2009, 04:07 PM
We should have the Andy Reid mentality and draft big linemen

Mr. White
09-13-2009, 04:09 PM
We should have the Andy Reid mentality and draft big linemen

No joke. Now that I think about it, I don't think that Kubes wants big linemen on either side of the ball.

LonerATO
09-13-2009, 04:14 PM
Look at what Denver did when they drafted Ryan Clady. Mike knew he wasnt the small light linemen of a ZBS system, but was a beast of a linemen and could be coached into a system.

Hervoyel
09-13-2009, 04:15 PM
Get a real blocking system already. Any good defense always eats our lunch.

It might have worked 10 years ago, but those days are over. The game's evolved.

We always end up getting manhandled by bigger D-Linemen.


That appears to be the problem.

We've just finished building and installing an offense that's about ten years out of date. Time marches on in the NFL and this system was in decline in Denver when we first hired Kubiak.

Great. You know what that makes us don't you? We're France right before the outbreak of WWII. We just finished installing our Maginot Line and we're ready to re-fight the first world war. There's just one problem....

"The Zone Blocking Broncos are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You coach Kubiak are all that's left of their system"

worldlyman
09-13-2009, 04:42 PM
Even the optimist in me had some concern that a pocket passing QB like Schaub is better suited with a classic pass protection line, such as the ones that protected Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning and so on.

A game like this one only bears this out. It was like Ike through the Seawall today!

Even in the heyday of the ZBS, John Elway was wily and physically gifted enough to get out of trouble when things broke down. Matt just isn't that kind of athlete.

4Texans
09-13-2009, 10:14 PM
I was at the game, and as I was driving home I was telling myself the same thing. This ZBS needs to go! Our OL and RB's got man-handled and embarassed. The coaching staff has got to get real and see the light. It's going to be a long season............

awtysst
09-13-2009, 11:53 PM
Lets look at two very different power running systems: Baltimore and Pittsburgh and compare the size of their Oline to ours.

Houston
LT Brown: 6'4 313lbs
LG Pitts:6'4 321lbs
C Myers: 6'4 299lbs
RG Briesel: 6'5 304lbs
RT Winston:6'5 319 lbs


C Caldwell: 6'3 312lbs
C White: 6'4 290lbs
G Studdard:6'3 306 lbs
LT/RT Butler: 6'4 310lbs

Now compare these guys size to the starting Oline for Baltimore and Pittsburgh

Baltimore:
LT: Gaither: 6'9 340lbs
LG: Grubbs: 6'4 315lbs
C: Birk : 6'4 309lbs
RG: Chester 6'3 315lbs
RT: Oher 6'4 310 lbs

Pittsburgh:
LT: Starks: 6'8 345lbs
LG: Kemoetu: 6'3 344lbs
C: Hartwig : 6'5 312lbs
RG: Essex: 6'5 324
RT: Colon 6'3 315lbs

Basically, Baltimore has a lighter group of mostly 315lbs(outside of Gaither) whereas Pitt goes heavy.

Lets look at Balti again and compare with Htown:
Baltimore:
LT: Gaither: 6'9 340lbs
LG: Grubbs: 6'4 315lbs-> LG Pitts:6'4 321lbs
C: Birk : 6'4 309lbs-> Caldwell: 6'3 312lbs
RG: Chester 6'3 315lbs->
RT: Oher 6'4 310 lbs-> RT Winston:6'5 319 lbs

Basically, we have guys that are currently similar at only 3/5 positions. We do not have a big enough RG(options would be White, Briesel, or Studdard) or a big enough road Grading LT. In fact many of the top teams like Balti, Pitt, Minnesota and Philly have massive LTs in the 330+ lb range. That is not to say that you cannot run a power system with a smaller LT, but it does make it tougher.

We may be able to get Brown to add another 10 lbs of muscle and that might be enough. In addition, if Studdard could put on 10 lbs as well, he might be good enough. In a power system you need to be mean and push people around. There are no needs for fancy moves, its just pushing the Dline off the ball.

Simply put, we do not have enough of the right components. Some of the players could be used, but White, Briesel, Butler, and Myers, are probably not usable. Studdard and Brown are maybes if they can add weight.

TexansFight
09-13-2009, 11:58 PM
Get a real blocking system already. Any good defense always eats our lunch.

It might have worked 10 years ago, but those days are over. The game's evolved.

We always end up getting manhandled by bigger D-Linemen.

Quoted for the truth! For ONCE, I would love to see the Texans BEAT their man one on one on BOTH the offensive and defensive lines. I want to get a coach in here he wants nasty players with attitudes on both sides of the ball that are able to DOMINATE the LOS. This town deserves a winner and not the abortion the Texans are giving us.

gtexan02
09-14-2009, 12:03 AM
Its funny how last year everyone loved Steve and the ZBS and Gibbs was a genius, and after 1 game, well, you know

TexansLucky13
09-14-2009, 12:04 AM
The ZBS has always suffered against the 3-4... that's just the way it is. The larger nose tackles associated with those defenses command the middle of the offensive line.

In a perfect world, we could have an athletic center suitable for the ZBS who could hold his own against 350 pound NTs... unfortunately those are hard to come by.

LonerATO
09-14-2009, 12:10 AM
I don't think the Texans would be running this system if they played in a 3-4 dominant division.

GNTLEWOLF
09-14-2009, 12:35 AM
Get a real blocking system already. Any good defense always eats our lunch.

It might have worked 10 years ago, but those days are over. The game's evolved.

We always end up getting manhandled by bigger D-Linemen.

I have often thought the same thing, but I think what really needs to be done is use it like other teams do...that is...draft big quick linemen instead of the smaller quick linemen. With the big guys, we should be able to dominate the LOS if we get guys with some fire.

Brisco_County
09-14-2009, 01:42 AM
Didn't the ZBS work out pretty well for us last year?

AnthonyE
09-14-2009, 01:45 AM
Was it me or did Steve Slaton look noticably slow out there? I thought Chris Brown was running well out there. He definitely looked quicker hitting the hole on his three carries.

brakos82
09-14-2009, 01:46 AM
Was it me or did Steve Slaton look noticably slow out there? I thought Chris Brown was running well out there. He definitely looked quicker hitting the hole on his three carries.

He's been looking a bit... somebody here phrased it perfectly, "Sluggish" throughout the preseason, and it carried over to today.

ObsiWan
09-14-2009, 02:03 AM
Was it me or did Steve Slaton look noticably slow out there? I thought Chris Brown was running well out there. He definitely looked quicker hitting the hole on his three carries.

Agreed.

And if you had asked me if I would ever utter the phrase, "Brown looks better than Slaton" back in June, I would have told you "no way". But if I were Kubiak, I would have left Brown in until he got tired.

m5kwatts
09-14-2009, 02:16 AM
Before everyone makes themselves look silly every team in the league has zone-blocking runs in their playbook and even the heaviest slowest offensive lines zone-block atleast a few plays a game.

Brisco_County
09-14-2009, 02:28 AM
I think it's true about us having trouble with large 3-4 linemen. That would explain why we lost to the Raiders last year, then bounced back to beat a 13-1 Titans team that needed a win for homefield advantage for their post-season. Same thing could happen next week.

Scooter
09-14-2009, 02:32 AM
Was it me or did Steve Slaton look noticably slow out there? I thought Chris Brown was running well out there. He definitely looked quicker hitting the hole on his three carries.

he did look a little slower than he was last year, but more so he's having a LOT of trouble reading the blocks. he struggled with it all preseason and today wasnt any better.

ObsiWan
09-14-2009, 02:58 AM
I think it's true about us having trouble with large 3-4 linemen. That would explain why we lost to the Raiders last year, then bounced back to beat a 13-1 Titans team that needed a win for homefield advantage for their post-season. Same thing could happen next week.

I like your optimism.
We'll see what these guys are made of come next week. The Titans will be p/o'ed because they lost to the Steelers. And we SHOULD be p/o'ed because their defense came in and manhandled our running game.

I think this one's on Kubiak and Shanahan. I would have pulled Slaton because he was not running with the authority that Brown was. The one time he got stopped, it was because Leach got stoned by Bart Scott and dumped back into Brown's lap.

The very next play is when Slaton got the ball knocked out of his hands.

Mr. White
09-14-2009, 05:38 AM
The Titans gave the Steelers offensive line some problems. I'm sure they'll have a field day with ours.

Brisco_County
09-14-2009, 05:39 AM
I like your optimism.
We'll see what these guys are made of come next week. The Titans will be p/o'ed because they lost to the Steelers. And we SHOULD be p/o'ed because their defense came in and manhandled our running game.

I think this one's on Kubiak and Shanahan. I would have pulled Slaton because he was not running with the authority that Brown was. The one time he got stopped, it was because Leach got stoned by Bart Scott and dumped back into Brown's lap.

The very next play is when Slaton got the ball knocked out of his hands.

I do place some blame on Shanahan. What do you do when a 3-4 defense keeps blitzing? You make them pay by throwing screen passes. How many screen passes did we try to throw? Obviously not enough. The one long run that Slaton had was off a screen. Why we didn't keep it up, I have no idea.

thunderkyss
09-14-2009, 05:53 AM
Two things I'll say about the ZBS.

#1, all this talk about us getting manhandled in the trenches, is a farce. We got beat by LBs, & not because their front 4 did such an outstanding job, but because their coordinator had us off balance all day. Remember that play where Jenkins stood up & played MLB, while the MLB & the WILL rushed Schaub? Any other QB in the league, including Sanchez would eat that up. .... but they kept sending so many LBs overloading different sides, it was crazy.

#2 If you watch the OL, none of them appear to be Zone Blocking anything. They seem to take a man, and try to block him one on one. They don't attack the side of the opponent, but try their darndest to get in front of him & square off against him, instead of just pushing him out of the way. It's like they are thinking, "there should be a hole here, so I'm going to block this way" which isn't at all what they should be thinking. What they should be thinking is, "Oh, so you want to pass on the left side of me? I'll help you get to the left side of me" & push the poor bastard as far left as they can. Watch the New Orleans pre-season game, and they did it to our DL, perfectly.

& it's not about size. Anyone with any size/strength, pushing a bigger player laterally, when that player wants to move horizontally, has the advantage. That's why they should be able to start to the side, get the opponent going sideways, pass him to the next Lineman, then get to the second level.

& that's another thing. When they get to the second level, Myers & Breisel are the only ones that are mean about it. Our home grown Texans are all polite about "getting in their way" where Breisel & Myers put helmets to work.

& that's another thing. whoever is teaching our guys to sprawl out at the feet of our opponent needs to get his $hit handed to him. They look pathetic jumping on the ground, with back up DTs & LBs jumping over them, or just going around.

Winston & Pitts are the worse.

Winston did make a decent block on Slaton's big screen play, but still way to polite for my taste.

thunderkyss
09-14-2009, 05:56 AM
I do place some blame on Shanahan. What do you do when a 3-4 defense keeps blitzing? You make them pay by throwing screen passes. How many screen passes did we try to throw? Obviously not enough. The one long run that Slaton had was off a screen. Why we didn't keep it up, I have no idea.

Kubiak, Shanahan, & Schuab have a lot of learning to do.

BigBull17
09-14-2009, 08:08 AM
he did look a little slower than he was last year, but more so he's having a LOT of trouble reading the blocks. he struggled with it all preseason and today wasnt any better.

He was VERY hesitant. They should have yanked him and gave Brown more carries.

DerekLee1
09-14-2009, 08:37 AM
The ZBS is a great scheme. The problem is we STILL don't have the RB for this system. Slaton still follows blockers rather than splitting them. I thought maybe he'd figured it out late last season when he started piling up the yards. But he still dances in the backfield looking for the big break rather than taking the guaranteed 3-5 yards by making the one cut. Ahman Green "got it" last year, and Chris Brown "gets it", but those guys haven't stayed healthy. I think it's time to trade the house for an extra first round pick and snag a safety and a RB. (Gawd, am I REALLY already starting the draft talk?!?)

nunusguy
09-14-2009, 09:02 AM
The ZBS is a great scheme. The problem is we STILL don't have the RB for this system. Slaton still follows blockers rather than splitting them. I thought maybe he'd figured it out late last season when he started piling up the yards. But he still dances in the backfield looking for the big break rather than taking the guaranteed 3-5 yards by making the one cut. Ahman Green "got it" last year, and Chris Brown "gets it", but those guys haven't stayed healthy. I think it's time to trade the house for an extra first round pick and snag a safety and a RB. (Gawd, am I REALLY already starting the draft talk?!?)

Good stuff DerekLee1. It's not the system, it's the personnel. And the ZB system definitely is at a disadvantage against the 3-4 as somebody pointed out earlier in this thread, so unless they plan to start forfeiting the games against 3-4 opponents they are gonna have to come up with a different game-plan for the offense in those games.
Schaub is hurt and Slaton is heavier and therefor apparently slower than last year. And gotta really leaving the QB into the second half ?

HJam72
09-14-2009, 09:13 AM
Some are saying that Brown outplayed Slaton, but I noticed that several of his longest runs were in two TE sets, which I don't think Slaton ever saw. A commentator mentioned they were running better from that formation. I don't know exactly why, to be honest, but maybe that should be part of our answer to the 3-4 right now.

thunderkyss
09-14-2009, 09:25 AM
The ZBS is a great scheme. The problem is we STILL don't have the RB for this system. Slaton still follows blockers rather than splitting them. I thought maybe he'd figured it out late last season when he started piling up the yards. But he still dances in the backfield looking for the big break rather than taking the guaranteed 3-5 yards by making the one cut. Ahman Green "got it" last year, and Chris Brown "gets it", but those guys haven't stayed healthy. I think it's time to trade the house for an extra first round pick and snag a safety and a RB. (Gawd, am I REALLY already starting the draft talk?!?)

Last year, we had Ahman Green, who could read the blocks, but didn't have the burst, Ryan Moats who had the burst, but couldn't read the blocks, and Steve Slaton, the best of both worlds. This year, he seems to have lost his burst, and his vision.

Some are saying that Brown outplayed Slaton, but I noticed that several of his longest runs were in two TE sets, which I don't think Slaton ever saw. A commentator mentioned they were running better from that formation. I don't know exactly why, to be honest, but maybe that should be part of our answer to the 3-4 right now.

The holes we've been able to make in the OL have been small. Chris Brown had the burst, to get to & through that hole last night, and Steve didn't.

The 3-4 is hell for all teams to run against. That's why it was developed, to stop the run. We have trouble with a 3-4 because Brown can't handle the speedier rushers. Whether it's a 3-4, or a 4-3.He's doing better in pass pro, don't get me wrong. But that has been our issue with the 3-4.

Another thing to note. NYJ played more snaps out of a base 4-3 than the 3-4.

Maddict5
09-14-2009, 09:30 AM
geez i didnt think the game evolved so much over the last 8 months that the ZB system which worked pretty well last year is now extinct :rolleyes:

leebigeztx
09-14-2009, 09:32 AM
I don't really think it has to do with the zbs as much as the square peg vs round hole. Big doesn't spell Man. Pittsburgh can't run the ball to save their life, but because ben is mobile and can shake guys off, it makes a difference and Ben has been sacked as much as anyone the last 2 yrs.

Holmgren in gb and seattle have been a zone blocking team, but much like sherman, he had a power zone using biggerr line similar to reid in philly. I think when you have a mid line passer, you need to be really stout inside with the 2 guards and center. Once shanny got rid of plummer and knew they were going to do more passing from the midline even if cutler is athletic, he rebuilt the line to protect the midline. Philly has the largest line in football and probably the biggest center in jamal jackson, but they have trouble in short yardage. Verry few centers can handle the jenkins,haynesworth,rogers,hampton types when they're on their games. Its really poor when the already immobile qb is hurt and you can't run any boots to keep the fast flowing defensse at bay. Similar to Brady in the superbowl, when you can't move the qb to get away from the rush, then it hurts your offense.

I still think that once they got schaub, the line shouldve been built like it was in gb and philly. Get the big guys that can move. Tenn seem like they can run against anyone because mawae can handle just about any nt and stewart and roos are also really good at the point. Like I said in another thread, its only 1 game.

Blake
09-14-2009, 09:32 AM
Im sorry but this thread is such a knee jerk reaction to a tough loss. We had a great thing going last season with this scheme, and when we hit a speed bump you want to tear down and rebuild our offensive scheme?

We just need to learn how to adjust our scheme when we play more physical 3-4 defenses. No need to take cover because the sky is falling.

thunderkyss
09-14-2009, 09:46 AM
Im sorry but this thread is such a knee jerk reaction to a tough loss. We had a great thing going last season with this scheme, and when we hit a speed bump you want to tear down and rebuild our offensive scheme?

We just need to learn how to adjust our scheme when we play more physical 3-4 defenses. No need to take cover because the sky is falling.

I don't think it's knee jerk at all. A little missplaced, but warranted.

We couldn't run in the preseason... though most fans agree the pre-season record don't matter, the ability to do what you do should matter quite a bit.

Last year, more than anything our passing game opened our running game. In the preseason, it looked like our passing game was going to be there. Yesterday, even though no one has mentioned it, IMHO we tried to force the run.

& I don't know why. Kubiak said we threw the ball 3 times to every run play. I think it may have ended that way, but I bet it wasn't at the end of the third Qtr.

Another thing about the "knee-jerk" I think subconciously most fans know the only reason we had a run game last season was because of Slaton & Leach. The ZBS wasn't working last year either. Or the year before, or the year before.

4Texans
09-14-2009, 09:54 AM
I don't think it's knee jerk at all. A little missplaced, but warranted.

.

I agree. The Texans have been trying to use a ZBS going back to D. Capers. I'm just sick of it, after watching it in person yesterday. The Jets didn't even have 2 of their DL starters available for the game. It's disgusting.

leebigeztx
09-14-2009, 10:08 AM
On another note, the best way to play against is to balance the set with 2 te's. If anyone watched the titans-steelers is crumpler and scaife were in a lot together. They also ran a lot of check with me releases. That way all the olb's are on the los and have to reveal themselves. Also, running those starburst sets orr cluster to one side automatically makes the defense play zone. Go watch the tenn vs pits and watch pitts put miller,ward,and walker/sweed to one side and holmes to the other. This forces zones and gives the qb easy reads. Its dink and dunk, but you get movement and eat up yards.

HOU-TEX
09-14-2009, 10:25 AM
I think the title should be changed to "The Texans ZBS Blows" because a majority of the NFL run versions of zone every game. Hell, we were gashed a few times by ZBS plays by the Saints and Vikes.

I think there could be an argument made for being outdated or personel involved, but the ZBS works. IMO, Olinemen are quicker now than they used to be, so they don't have to be 290-300 lbs to run the ZBS anymore. Give me 5 325+ Olinemen and I'd be willing to bet they'd have more success than what we have now.

Myers is just horrible. I don't care who he was up against. He should be embarrassed after being pancaked on a constant basis. Brisiel and Pitts were almost as bad. Duane Brown would be the only one that might deserve a positive grade.

dalemurphy
09-14-2009, 10:34 AM
I think the title should be changed to "The Texans ZBS Blows" because a majority of the NFL run versions of zone every game. Hell, we were gashed a few times by ZBS plays by the Saints and Vikes.

I think there could be an argument made for being outdated or personel involved, but the ZBS works. IMO, Olinemen are quicker now than they used to be, so they don't have to be 290-300 lbs to run the ZBS anymore. Give me 5 325+ Olinemen and I'd be willing to bet they'd have more success than what we have now.

Myers is just horrible. I don't care who he was up against. He should be embarrassed after being pancaked on a constant basis. Brisiel and Pitts were almost as bad. Duane Brown would be the only one that might deserve a positive grade.

I'm not going to pile onto Myers. This is on the coaches! Is anyone on the planet, other than 76..Texan, surprised that Kris Jenkins dominated that matchup. The problem is that this game and matchup has been known since freakin' April and after 5 months of preparation, the offense was totally baffled by the NT and by the blitzing. Wow! Who would have expected Rex Ryan to blitz his LBs and apply pressure up the middle at Schaub?! No wonder we weren't prepared for that.. it's so out of character for Ryan!

Redtexan#34
09-14-2009, 10:45 AM
I don't think you can blame this purely on the ZBS. Its allready been said that most teams use some form of the ZBS on some plays. In my opinion the blame is on Kubiak and Shannahan. They failed to, #1 put in a decent gameplan for the Jets #2 they failed to adapt to the Jets defense. All the coaching staff had to do was look at the Ravens game from last year or film of any Rex, Buddy or any Ryan Defense, they were going to bring the house on every play. Some one mentioned the Texans ran better in 2TE sets that because they had more blockers. I mean They should have spread the defense out from the start ran 3WR 4WR sets. Called slants and cross patterns the whole game. You got make them honest throw screen passes. Its only week 1 and the Texans dont need to abandon their O-line blocking scheme they need to do better planning and coaching. Winston said after the game it was not Kubiaks fault becuase he(Kubiak) was not out there on the O-line making bad plays. A good coach puts his players in a position where they can succeed not throw them to the wolves and keep making the same bonehead playcalls.

HOU-TEX
09-14-2009, 10:57 AM
I'm not going to pile onto Myers. This is on the coaches! Is anyone on the planet, other than 76..Texan, surprised that Kris Jenkins dominated that matchup. The problem is that this game and matchup has been known since freakin' April and after 5 months of preparation, the offense was totally baffled by the NT and by the blitzing. Wow! Who would have expected Rex Ryan to blitz his LBs and apply pressure up the middle at Schaub?! No wonder we weren't prepared for that.. it's so out of character for Ryan!

You're right. I called out the coaching in a different thread and they are to blame. However, Myers getting physically man-handled the way he did is unacceptable for an NFL calibre C.

I suppose you can still blame coaching for that too since they're the one's who annointed him the starter.

Mr. White
09-14-2009, 12:35 PM
geez i didnt think the game evolved so much over the last 8 months that the ZB system which worked pretty well last year is now extinct :rolleyes:

Im sorry but this thread is such a knee jerk reaction to a tough loss. We had a great thing going last season with this scheme, and when we hit a speed bump you want to tear down and rebuild our offensive scheme?

We just need to learn how to adjust our scheme when we play more physical 3-4 defenses. No need to take cover because the sky is falling.

Do you guys really not see a pattern here? If you can't then, tell me how the Kool-Aid tastes this year.

It's not just 3-4 defenses that eat our lunch, it's any good defense. Ask the Vikings.

The scouting report on Schaub is to knock him down early and often. The teams that do that win. The O-Line is powerless to stop anybody from getting to him.

Is it the system or is it the personnel? I think it's both.

NEWSFLASH: This happened last year too. To think the ZBS was effective here last year is revisionist history.

Texan JBZ
09-14-2009, 12:43 PM
The Zone is a very effective run scheme IF it is executed correctly. How do you think Mike Bell ran crazy over the Texans in preseason? The Saints were running power zone schemes. The difference is that the Texans have a philosophy that only smaller lineman can fit the scheme and end up getting manhandled by bigger d-lineman, ala Pat and Kevin Williams and Kris Jenkins. Chris Meyers is just too light in the ass. He can't handle stout d-lineman and it's a fact. From Hampton to Haynesworth to Ngata to Jenkins and whoever else down the road. Brisiel too. We've got banterweights boxing against super heavyweights. The zone isn't effective that way. The one way to kill a zone run is by penetration. That's what has been happening all preseason and yesterday. The Texans o-line is too light and can't get the push off of the line of scrimmage they need right now.

badboy
09-14-2009, 04:59 PM
The ZBS was used by Denver for years before we assumed it. Could it be like other good things, it has become archaic? Even if it gets us down the field (which it did not yesterday), we can't get it in. Reminds me of a girl I chased in high school.

Wolf6151
09-14-2009, 05:58 PM
Before everyone makes themselves look silly every team in the league has zone-blocking runs in their playbook and even the heaviest slowest offensive lines zone-block atleast a few plays a game.

I agree, the problem isn't the ZBS, it's the fact that Kubiak and Gibbs feel that the only players that are perfect for this system are light weight, athletic, mobile O-linemen. Every team in the league runs some zone blocking from time to time but they do so with much bigger O-linemen who get the job done. Just because your really big doesn't mean that your not mobile and athletic, and Kubiak and Gibbs fail to understand this. The ZBS can work but putting a 299 lbs. center against a 340-350 lbs. NT is just stupid. No matter how you try to turn the guy and get him moving sideways, it's not going to work if your not big and strong enough to move him.

Kubiak and Smith knew last year that Brisiel and Myers were small and getting pushed around but they didn't do anything about it in the offseason. Put Caldwell in the game at either C or RG. If he makes some rookie mistakes then he'll learn and be that much further ahead, and it'll be no different than Brisiel and Myers getting thrown around like rag dolls.

thunderkyss
09-14-2009, 08:07 PM
Do you guys really not see a pattern here? If you can't then, tell me how the Kool-Aid tastes this year.

It's not just 3-4 defenses that eat our lunch, it's any good defense. Ask the Vikings.

Which brings up the question. Are we a good team or not? I don't think most of us want to hear the answer. Can we tackle? no. Can we rush the passer? no. Can we cover in man? no. Can we cover in Zone? no.

Can we run the ball? no. Can we pass? Yes. Can we run routes? Yes. Can we run block? no. Can we pass block? no.

Then how did we beat Chicago trying to win a Play-off spot last year, or Tennessee looking for home field advantage?

I don't know. But our fundamentals are wacked... We've still got work to do, after 3 years.


The scouting report on Schaub is to knock him down early and often. The teams that do that win.

I think this is true for Manning, Brady, Ben, Romo.... you name it.

Is it the system or is it the personnel? I think it's both.

NEWSFLASH: This happened last year too. To think the ZBS was effective here last year is revisionist history.

Quite a bit of both actually.
1) If Kubiak would let go of this, "we're a running team" idea, and throw the ball. Design an offense that spreads the field, and attacks deep. That's more or less what we did last year.

2) our personel don't want to learn our "system" or they're being taught some bad habits. My primary beef is the cut blocks. Our guys lay themselves on the ground, throwing themselves at the feet of very athletic LBs, DTs, & DEs... & it's not effective. They've been doing it for two years since I've been paying attention, like they think they'll get better at it. Watch Briesel & Myers, they do it right. Every now & then, Owen Daniels does it right too. Don't lay down in front of a guy, hoping he'll trip over you. Put your pads in his hips. He will not get around that. The second thing is that Pitts, Wintson, Brown & Owen are trying to man up on someone on the DL. They shouldn't be thinking about stopping the DL from getting to the backfield. They should be thinking about moving the DL to the sideline.

Defensively, I have no idea what they're going for, but pass coverage doesn't appear to be part of the equation.

LonerATO
09-14-2009, 08:16 PM
Which brings up the question. Are we a good team or not? I don't think most of us want to hear the answer. Can we tackle? no. Can we rush the passer? no. Can we cover in man? no. Can we cover in Zone? no.

Can we run the ball? no. Can we pass? Yes. Can we run routes? Yes. Can we run block? no. Can we pass block? no.

Then how did we beat Chicago trying to win a Play-off spot last year, or Tennessee looking for home field advantage?

I don't know. But our fundamentals are wacked... We've still got work to do, after 3 years.


I think this is true for Manning, Brady, Ben, Romo.... you name it.


Quite a bit of both actually.
1) If Kubiak would let go of this, "we're a running team" idea, and throw the ball. Design an offense that spreads the field, and attacks deep. That's more or less what we did last year.

2) our personel don't want to learn our "system" or they're being taught some bad habits. My primary beef is the cut blocks. Our guys lay themselves on the ground, throwing themselves at the feet of very athletic LBs, DTs, & DEs... & it's not effective. They've been doing it for two years since I've been paying attention, like they think they'll get better at it. Watch Briesel & Myers, they do it right. Every now & then, Owen Daniels does it right too. Don't lay down in front of a guy, hoping he'll trip over you. Put your pads in his hips. He will not get around that. The second thing is that Pitts, Wintson, Brown & Owen are trying to man up on someone on the DL. They shouldn't be thinking about stopping the DL from getting to the backfield. They should be thinking about moving the DL to the sideline.

Defensively, I have no idea what they're going for, but pass coverage doesn't appear to be part of the equation.

When Brady gets knocked down good old Bill changes plays and calls to protect him. Manning doesn't get sacked often and when he does he goes off on his o-line and they step it up. Big Ben goes down because he holds on to the ball, but makes the most amazing plays happen. Romo is a tool who just runs out of the pocket and slings the ball around. Matt goes down and doesn't get up because he gets hurt all the time, hence the reason the report is hit him often. I agree with you that all teams go after the QB, but it comes down to how he handles the pressure and how the coach and team react to this.

False Start
09-14-2009, 08:25 PM
Yeah, his offense is getting figured out.... it's "finesse"

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii202/J4103V/snickers_gk.gif

thunderkyss
09-14-2009, 09:16 PM
I agree with you that all teams go after the QB, but it comes down to how he handles the pressure and how the coach and team react to this.

Exactly my point. It doesn't matter what happened last night. Teams were going to be coming for him. Ala David Carr, until he proves he can beat them. Otherwise, it will be relentless. Brady will & has beat many blitzes. Not because he pouts & screams at his offensive line, but because he's mentally into the game. He knows where his guys are going to be, and when he's watching a play develop, he's watching the reaction of the defense more than which way his reciever is going.

Peyton & Brees is the same.

Ben & Romo keep the play alive, because nobody can cover anyone very long.

Sanchez fits into that keep plays alive group.

Cotton isn't any of those guys. He's accurate, and usually pretty quick. He's a rhythm passer. & for whatever reason he had yesterday, he didn't trust the system.

awtysst
09-14-2009, 09:25 PM
The ZBS was used by Denver for years before we assumed it. Could it be like other good things, it has become archaic? Even if it gets us down the field (which it did not yesterday), we can't get it in. Reminds me of a girl I chased in high school.

The problem with the ZBS in 2009 is the game has changed since the hey day of the Broncos. Namely the infamous cutblock that Denver ran to perfection is illegal. Think about it. If you are a 290-315 lb Olineman and you are facing a monster DE or DT, where is he the most vulnerable? At his base. So if you make a few cut blocks, he will not be as fast if he has to watch and be wary about his legs. Thus the cutblock slows down the D penetration, which as we all know is the best way to stop it.

The removal of the cutblock has basically nurtured the ZBS system. It can be effective against an average defense but good ones can destroy it.

Jackie Chiles
09-14-2009, 09:32 PM
The problem with the ZBS in 2009 is the game has changed since the hey day of the Broncos. Namely the infamous cutblock that Denver ran to perfection is illegal. Think about it. If you are a 290-315 lb Olineman and you are facing a monster DE or DT, where is he the most vulnerable? At his base. So if you make a few cut blocks, he will not be as fast if he has to watch and be wary about his legs. Thus the cutblock slows down the D penetration, which as we all know is the best way to stop it.

The removal of the cutblock has basically nurtured the ZBS system. It can be effective against an average defense but good ones can destroy it.

Since when is the cutblock illegal?

michaelm
09-14-2009, 11:53 PM
The Titans gave the Steelers offensive line some problems. I'm sure they'll have a field day with ours.


IIRC, the Steelers OL isn't really considered one of the better ones in the league.
As a matter of fact, a quote I heard on (I think) the NFL network last night was that the Steelers had the worst OL to ever win a Superbowl

Number19
09-18-2009, 12:42 AM
Is our lack of a sustained running offense not so much the personnel, maybe, but rather the ZB scheme. We've had a form of it under two coaching staffs, now, and it hasn't produced. Maybe we need to drop it in favor of the time tested power running game.

Also, there's been several of us on this forum who have steadily maintained it's harder to build a playoff caliber line with third round - and lower - draft picks. We need to invest some ones and twos.

But I think it's time for the ZB scheme to go.

New_Texans
09-18-2009, 01:09 AM
Is our lack of a sustained running offense not so much the personnel, maybe, but rather the ZB scheme. We've had a form of it under two coaching staffs, now, and it hasn't produced. Maybe we need to drop it in favor of the time tested power running game.

Also, there's been several of us on this forum who have steadily maintained it's harder to build a playoff caliber line with third round - and lower - draft picks. We need to invest some ones and twos.

But I think it's time for the ZB scheme to go.

Pitts - 2nd
Brown - 1st
Winston - would have been a 1st or 2nd if he didn't get injuried...

thats 3/5th of the Oline.

michaelm
09-18-2009, 01:14 AM
But I think it's time for the ZB scheme to go.

I know this opinion is the flavor of the day around here, but the same scheme produced pretty good results last season.
Slaton put up two 100+ yard games on the Tacks last year, and they didn't give up 100 yards rushing in a game to any other player.

GNTLEWOLF
09-18-2009, 01:21 AM
I know this opinion is the flavor of the day around here, but the same scheme produced pretty good results last season.
Slaton put up two 100+ yard games on the Tacks last year, and they didn't give up 100 yards rushing in a game to any other player.

You are right...it produced a lot of yards, but not a lot of points. We were bad in the red zone. Our linemen are too light weight to be effective in an area of the field where beef braun and quickness are needed to bull one's way into the end zone on the ground. Maybe if we went to larger road grader type linemen and bigger yet quick backs with good vision then our ground game would be better. And yes many teams in the league already run variations of the ZBS with larger quick linemen, but those teams don't live and die by it.

HJam72
09-18-2009, 09:16 AM
What I really want to know is how we went from what we did to the Titans and Bears late last year to the crap we're seeing now.

Thorn
09-18-2009, 09:28 AM
What I really want to know is how we went from what we did to the Titans and Bears late last year to the crap we're seeing now.

Unless the Texans pick things up real quick, Kubiac coached teams starting out the season very slow will be a fact, not just a noticable trend.

HOU-TEX
09-18-2009, 10:04 AM
Geez, how many of these threads are we going to start? Damn near every team in the NFL run Zone running plays. We were gashed by our own freaking blocking scheme in the preseason. The Saints gashed us with a backup RB on a couple few ZB plays. AP's long TD was off a zone running play.

What upsets me is the fact other teams are presently running the scheme better than we are. The ZBS is not the problem here so that narrows it down to coaching and personel. Personally, I think it might be a combination of both. Has daddy Gibbs, the supposed ZBS guru, been surpassed by his peers?

Who fricken knows, but it ain't the scheme. Do I like the scheme? Meh, call me old school, but I'd rather pound the opposing team.

badboy
09-18-2009, 12:26 PM
What I really want to know is how we went from what we did to the Titans and Bears late last year to the crap we're seeing now.i understand it has something to do with the collusion between McNair and the players association.

Vinny
09-18-2009, 12:31 PM
What I really want to know is how we went from what we did to the Titans and Bears late last year to the crap we're seeing now. we only play well when we have nothing to play for. It's a Kubiak tradition.

Mr. White
09-18-2009, 12:39 PM
Here is an interesting comment yesterday from TC's blog (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/09/eric_winston_tutorial_about_zo.html) that I haven't seen anywhere else today.

From a commenter:

Stephanie - I thought you might be interested in Bill Belichick's take on the Texans performance against the Jets. I heard this live on the air on Tuesday evening, but didn't find it online until today.


His tone certainly puts more "blame" on the Texans and the O-line play and coaching than he gives "credit" to the Jets.


He is answering questions about the Pats' next game this weekend against the Jets but is discussing this right on the heels of review the Jets/Texans game tape (that's earlier in the broadcast).


Now there are certainly differing opinions on Belichick, but hearing this whole broadcast live was pretty damning to the Texans coaching to me.


He makes a comment something to the effect of (paraphrased): "It makes (one) wonder how they (Texans) were planning to handle what the Jets were doing on defense"... and he seems to agree with the interviewer (former NFL player) who states that it is hard to believe the Texans coaches watched any tape of Baltimore prior to the game to prepare since it was exactly the same defense...


Anyway sorry to bring this game up again, but thought it might be of interest. The Jets/Texans specific stuff starts around 10 mins in to the broadcast and is pretty much done by 13 mins in.


Here's the URL:
[URL="Stephanie - I thought you might be interested in Bill Belichick's take on the Texans performance against the Jets. I heard this live on the air on Tuesday evening, but didn't find it online until today. His tone certainly puts more "blame" on the Texans and the O-line play and coaching than he gives "credit" to the Jets. He is answering questions about the Pats' next game this weekend against the Jets but is discussing this right on the heels of review the Jets/Texans game tape (that's earlier in the broadcast). Now there are certainly differing opinions on Belichick, but hearing this whole broadcast live was pretty damning to the Texans coaching to me. He makes a comment something to the effect of (paraphrased): "It makes (one) wonder how they (Texans) were planning to handle what the Jets were doing on defense"... and he seems to agree with the interviewer (former NFL player) who states that it is hard to believe the Texans coaches watched any tape of Baltimore prior to the game to prepare since it was exactly the same defense... Anyway sorry to bring this game up again, but thought it might be of interest. The Jets/Texans specific stuff starts around 10 mins in to the broadcast and is pretty much done by 13 mins in. Here's the URL: [URL="Stephanie - I thought you might be interested in Bill Belichick's take on the Texans performance against the Jets. I heard this live on the air on Tuesday evening, but didn't find it online until today. His tone certainly puts more "blame" on the Texans and the O-line play and coaching than he gives "credit" to the Jets. He is answering questions about the Pats' next game this weekend against the Jets but is discussing this right on the heels of review the Jets/Texans game tape (that's earlier in the broadcast). Now there are certainly differing opinions on Belichick, but hearing this whole broadcast live was pretty damning to the Texans coaching to me. He makes a comment something to the effect of (paraphrased): "It makes (one) wonder how they (Texans) were planning to handle what the Jets were doing on defense"... and he seems to agree with the interviewer (former NFL player) who states that it is hard to believe the Texans coaches watched any tape of Baltimore prior to the game to prepare since it was exactly the same defense... Anyway sorry to bring this game up again, but thought it might be of interest. The Jets/Texans specific stuff starts around 10 mins in to the broadcast and is pretty much done by 13 mins in. Here's the URL: http://www.patriots.com/mediacenter/index.cfm?ac=audionewsdetail&pid=38907&pcid=47


The comment's wrong. He starts talking about the Jets defense at 20:00.

Looks like Belichick's thinking the same thing that a lot of us around here are thinking.

Hervoyel
09-18-2009, 01:53 PM
Pitts - 2nd
Brown - 1st
Winston - would have been a 1st or 2nd if he didn't get injuried...

thats 3/5th of the Oline.

You know, I keep hearing that and I just don't buy it. He's done ok but I don't think anybody in their right mind would have grabbed Winston in the first round. Even the Texans opted to pay Charles Spencer 2nd round money over Winston when they drafted both of them. Now maybe their contracts were the proverbial hair apart since they were taken one after the other but the reality is that Winston hasn't played to a level that I'd characterize as "He was a steal in the 3rd round!"

He's a nice guy, a good player, and I'm glad we have him but right about now I really miss Charles Spencer and the Texans could really use what they had hoped and expected to get from him.

thunderkyss
09-18-2009, 03:23 PM
Geez, how many of these threads are we going to start? Damn near every team in the NFL run Zone running plays. We were gashed by our own freaking blocking scheme in the preseason. The Saints gashed us with a backup RB on a couple few ZB plays. AP's long TD was off a zone running play.

What upsets me is the fact other teams are presently running the scheme better than we are. The ZBS is not the problem here so that narrows it down to coaching and personel. Personally, I think it might be a combination of both. Has daddy Gibbs, the supposed ZBS guru, been surpassed by his peers?

Who fricken knows, but it ain't the scheme. Do I like the scheme? Meh, call me old school, but I'd rather pound the opposing team.

What we need to do, is watch each running play off our DVRs, and find out why the plays didn't work. Then we find out why what happened happend. Are the players not strong enough? are they not fast enough? do that "get" the program?

I've watched it myself, and came to the conclusion that our coaches aren't teaching the system right.

Gary Kubiak & Alex Gibbs.... sounds crazy, I know. But it is what it is.

dickieb
09-18-2009, 05:16 PM
we only play well when we have nothing to play for. It's a Kubiak tradition.

That's the only time Kubiak probably gives a half way decent speech is after we are already out of the hunt but he wants them to play well so he can keep his job - "we can't take a step backwards", or else we will have to "look at ourselves in the mirror". He is really saying guys you gotta win or else people will think I am not a good coach then they will bring in a new coach who will make you actually participate in two a days during training camp, even you old vets, and they might even make you tackle - so come on guys win one for me so we can continue our soft tradition that I worked so softly to build.

Gosh I hope Kubiak proves me wrong someday - Sunday would be a good time to start.

b0ng
09-18-2009, 07:50 PM
The line play is inconsistent right now. Same as it was last year. Some games we'd look like grizzled vets running the ball (Indy, Green Bay, Chicago, Tennessee) and other times we'd come out looking like a team of idiots (Oakland, Baltimore, Pittsburgh). I haven't seen any of the dirtiness of all of the other Gibbs coached lines, and really they look like a bunch of flamers out there. Then they'll completely stone some team we aren't expecting them to do that to, and we all wonder what is going on. I remember the Oilers being really inconsistent too, and I always think that falls on the coaching.

I don't think replacing the entirety of the O-line is going to do anything until the staff picks it up and gets these players putting up consistent performances. Last season was not some kind of a fluke and really until the linemen get it we are going to see this up and down performances.

This thread is entirely too early after coming off of our best rushing season ever. I too also dislike the "finesse" of ZBS and would rather watch our linemen punch people in the face.

HJam72
09-19-2009, 12:53 PM
we only play well when we have nothing to play for. It's a Kubiak tradition.

Ding, ding, ding! :thinking: