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Wolf
10-14-2012, 10:56 PM
Who do you y'all want to hire?

Mailman
10-14-2012, 10:56 PM
You know, it's interesting that you mention Matt's bad game because I thought before the game started when they showed him in pre-game warmups he had the weirdest look on his face. He looked like he was already whipped. I'm serious, I want to go back and dig up some screenshots of that because it caught my attention right away. It was some of the most negative, hang-dog looking it expression and body language I can remember ever seeing out of him. He looked like that all night from the opening drive. It's like he was pissed off about something and not something he could channel into his game.

I wonder what was up with that?

Absolutely nothing. Sounds like a buncha gibber gabber hokum to me. He just got his ass handed to him by Dom Capers.

fiasco west
10-14-2012, 10:57 PM
Actually, the great thing about bumping this three year old thread is that it isn't overreacting. It's a thought process that's been marinating for three years (more for some). It's not like the team got blown out tonight and people started thinking Kubiak is awful despite a 5-1 record. It's that we've thought he's awful for a very long time and the same old, same old problems resurfaced tonight. That's all.

The Texans are 5-1 right now.

Yeah he's not had the best of history but guess what? Coaches can improve and Kubiak has at least shown that.

If the Texans don't respond to this embarrassment and go out and let this happen again then it would have been a better time to bring this up.

Mailman
10-14-2012, 11:00 PM
T

Actually, the great thing about bumping this three year old thread is that it isn't overreacting. It's a thought process that's been marinating for three years (more for some). It's not like the team got blown out tonight and people started thinking Kubiak is awful despite a 5-1 record. It's that we've thought he's awful for a very long time and the same old, same old problems resurfaced tonight. That's all.

No, you've just been waiting for some evidence to confirm your predisposed position all along, all these recent successes be damned. Your position is completely untenable and not worth arguing against. Kubiak could win a Super Bowl, then misuse a timeout in the next year's playoffs and you'd bump this thread.

Ridiculous.

Textan
10-14-2012, 11:02 PM
Unfortunately, I believe you're right.
I don't see him going anywhere in the next five years at least, unless the Texans implode this year and next.
Something I really don't want to happen.
Cowher, was the way to go, but oh well.

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:02 PM
If the Texans don't respond to this embarrassment and go out and let this happen again then it would have been a better time to bring this up.

It's not really an issue of "bringing it up" as much as a continual reminder that he wasn't, isn't, and never will be a good head coach. So there's nothing to bring up. It's just an ongoing fact.

Who do you y'all want to hire?

No one right now. The team is 5-1. They're going to the playoffs, barring some horrific meltdown. When I say "Fire Kubiak", I say it in the same way that I say we need to replace Bradie James. It's not happening tomorrow. There's no one to replace him with anyway. But if you're serious about wanting this to be the best team it can be, then you ought to recognize that they guy at the top is limiting that potential.

fiasco west
10-14-2012, 11:03 PM
I wonder if the 9ers fans are calling for Harbaugh to be fired.

They were smacked around today as well.

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:04 PM
I wonder if the 9ers fans are calling for Harbaugh to be fired.

They were smacked around today as well.

Does Harbaugh have a 6+ year record of mediocrity? If so, they probably were.

TheGM
10-14-2012, 11:05 PM
Dom Capers. Redemption time.

Wolf
10-14-2012, 11:06 PM
Then what purpose to stoke the fire (no pun intended) in week 6 ofthe season? Why not wait till later in the season



On a side note
No worries though coaches are made to be fired. Happens all the time. Good thing about threads like this. Eventually Kubiak will get fired and people will be happy

fiasco west
10-14-2012, 11:10 PM
Does Harbaugh have a 6+ year record of mediocrity? If so, they probably were.

The history does not really matter if he is improving and getting better.

The recent success should be all that matters right now.

Not all coaches get the job right away, there is a learning curve there too. Right now Kubiak's team is one of the best in the NFL. That counts for something. One loss no matter how bad it was is still one loss.

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:12 PM
Then what purpose to stoke the fire (no pun intended) in week 6 ofthe season? Why not wait till later in the season

The same reason you talk about problems with the team after every game. The run game is struggling, the OL has issues, the ILBs are weak, ST are crappy, and the head coach is not good. Just one more talking point, except of all those, it's the one talking point that hasn't been addressed at some point.

On a side note
No worries though coaches are made to be fired. Happens all the time. Good thing about threads like this. Eventually Kubiak will get fired and people will be happy

Not going to be happy because he's fired. I wanted the Kubiak thing to work. If the team gets to the Super Bowl, he'll be lauded like Bum in this town. I like Kubiak. But I want this team to be the best it can be and discussing the strengths AND weaknesses of the team is what fans do. Head coach is one of the weaknesses of the team.

I know everyone wants to frame this in a light like it's a reaction to this game. In the sense that Kubiak did some things at the end of the first half that raised my ire, it is. But more than that, it's that those issues are not new. They have always been there.

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:16 PM
The history does not really matter if he is improving and getting better.

The clock management issues and turtling before the half are issues that have always been there with Kubiak. He has not improved or gotten better. In fact, most of the problems he has exhibited as head coach have not gotten ebtter or changed appreciably. One of the main things people harped on was how he steadfastly held on to Richard Smith and then Frank Bush, despite the fact that any sentient being could tell those guys needed to be fired. Now everyone seems to think Joe Marciano needs to be fired. That's not new. ST didn't all of a sudden get bad.

He's not improving. He's just gotten better players, slowly, after several drafts. Frankly, it's taken him a lot longer to get here than it should have. He's just not a good coach. It's been 102 games. He is what he is.

Wolf
10-14-2012, 11:17 PM
ST have been slipping for a couple of years

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:19 PM
ST have been slipping for a couple of years

As I said in another thread, long enough that the head guy should have made a change by now.

fiasco west
10-14-2012, 11:22 PM
The clock management issues and turtling before the half are issues that have always been there with Kubiak. He has not improved or gotten better. In fact, most of the problems he has exhibited as head coach have not gotten ebtter or changed appreciably. One of the main things people harped on was how he steadfastly held on to Richard Smith and then Frank Bush, despite the fact that any sentient being could tell those guys needed to be fired. Now everyone seems to think Joe Marciano needs to be fired. That's not new. ST didn't all of a sudden get bad.

He's not improving. He's just gotten better players, slowly, after several drafts. Frankly, it's taken him a lot longer to get here than it should have. He's just not a good coach. It's been 102 games. He is what he is.

They are 5-1. You think people don't have gripes about the best of coaches? They do. I've heard Giants fans complain about Coughlin, no coach is perfect. Yeah Kubes is conservative...but you know what? That has won us a lot of games.

Who cares about how he hung onto those guys now that we bought in a actual DC? Now say Wade gets another HC job and we go back to giving a unproven DC the job then yeah.

So he's gotten better players and his team looks better? Well that's usually how things work. A great coach isn't going to make the previous trashy teams we had any better. Also the fact that he has gotten better players is part of his job. (Just part of it)

sandmanx
10-14-2012, 11:23 PM
Amazing after a 5-0 start the Kubes party is over immediately after a loss to me. What I really want in a coach with the balls to lay a 40+ score beatdown on a team, not a team that is going to lay down on a dead team at home. **** Kubiak

Mailman
10-14-2012, 11:30 PM
Amazing after a 5-0 start the Kubes party is over immediately after a loss to me. What I really want in a coach with the balls to lay a 40+ score beatdown on a team, not a team that is going to lay down on a dead team at home. **** Kubiak

Wut?

Translation someone?

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:31 PM
They are 5-1.

Irrelevant to the current discussion, because this is an issue that's 102 games in the making, not 6 games.

Yeah Kubes is conservative...but you know what? That has won us a lot of games.

Knowing when to press and when to go conservative is one of those things that good decision making is comprised of.

Who cares about how he hung onto those guys now that we bought in a actual DC? Now say Wade gets another HC job and we go back to giving a unproven DC the job then yeah.

Allow me to spell it out for you - he's exhibiting the same fault in loyalty with Joe Marciano right now that he exhibited with both Smith and Bush. In other words, he's not changing, he's not improving, and your entire premise is flawed.

So he's gotten better players and his team looks better? Well that's usually how things work. A great coach isn't going to make the previous trashy teams we had any better. Also the fact that he has gotten better players is part of his job. (Just part of it)

It is part of his job. Therefore, the multitude of blown draft picks that led to things taking so long also fall at his doorstep. And a great coach may not take a trash team to the Super Bowl, but I think it's fair to say Kubiak's teams have underachieved in the past. Most notably 2009 and 2010. His teams - that he built - with coaches he hired - with a GM that he hired. Noticing the common denominator here?

But hey, the team is 5-1 and we are all happy with that, tonight's loss notwithstanding. But as I said above, fans discuss the strengths AND the weaknesses of a team. Kubiak is a weakness, just like Alan Ball or Antoine Caldwell or Brandon Harris. So it's going to be discussed. It's been a weakness for at least three years, so the wait and see period is over for a lot of us. If you still believe, then good for you.

Hervoyel
10-14-2012, 11:32 PM
Absolutely nothing. Sounds like a buncha gibber gabber hokum to me. He just got his ass handed to him by Dom Capers.


This was prior to his having his "ass handed to him by Dom Capers".

rolyat93
10-14-2012, 11:32 PM
Kube's ain't going anywhere haters. 5-1 speaks for itself.

Mailman
10-14-2012, 11:36 PM
This was prior to his having his "ass handed to him by Dom Capers".

Interpreting body language is a losing proposition. Don't put too much into it.

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:37 PM
I have always been a firm believer in running your stuff, but aggressive defenses have shown us that they can take away our whole game plan. What it boils down to is, that Kubiak is a horrible when it comes to adjustments and clock management. We need a head coach, not a developer of coordinators.

This post was three years, one month, and one day ago. There's your improvement.

Hervoyel
10-14-2012, 11:42 PM
Interpreting body language is a losing proposition. Don't put too much into it.


Whatever man. Dude looked like he was in a funk before the game ever started and I made note of it. Game began and what do you know, he played like he was in a funk.

All I'm saying.

toronto
10-14-2012, 11:44 PM
This post was three years, one month, and one day ago. There's your improvement.

Tonight's one game had little to do with adjustments and everything to do with terrible discipline. The offside call on the punt is inexcusable. That's for starters.

No disrespect, but you get a swelled head after starting 5-0 and deservedly so, but in the last week two things happened...

You lost your best defensive player
They're were pissed off like hell and played like the top contending team they are supposed to be.

This is still a 12-4 team that, if they can beat Baltimore, has a potential lock on home field throughout the playoffs. Next weeks game for your team is a much bigger test, and it tlooks like they too, will be missing their heart and soul if Rey Rey is gone...

It happens. I'm sure 49er fans feel the same way tonight too.

fiasco west
10-14-2012, 11:45 PM
This post was three years, one month, and one day ago. There's your improvement.

What improvement is to be made when you can't run or pass the ball?

Oh and when you give the ball back the other team throws up another TD.

I'm not saying none of this is his fault but the players played like complete garbage today and Wade (The Savior) didn't help Kubiak out too much either.

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:46 PM
Tonight's one game had little to do with adjustments and everything to do with terrible discipline.

I agree. But after 3+ years of seeing the same problems from the head coach, it deserves to be discussed no differently than any of the other ongoing problems.

Mailman
10-14-2012, 11:48 PM
Whatever man. Dude looked like he was in a funk before the game ever started and I made note of it. Game began and what do you know, he played like he was in a funk.

All I'm saying.

Schaub's body language is always off imo. I think you're reading palms. The entire offense played like crap. Maybe it's Arian's vegan diet?

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:48 PM
What improvement is to be made when you can't run or pass the ball?

Well, for starters you call that timeout immediately and prepare for the punt. You get the special teams coach that you employ to get his players to freakin' block someone and try for a decent return. Then you come up with a couple plays that are a balance of risk vs. reward that may result in something. That means no Hail Marys and no 3rd and long draw plays, in case that needed to be clarified. If they don't result in anything, you gave it an honest attempt. If they do, maybe you get a FG or even a TD.

What you don't do is kneel down on the sideline and pray to God that the half ends right then and there for the whole world to see.

Mailman
10-14-2012, 11:50 PM
I agree. But after 3+ years of seeing the same problems from the head coach, it deserves to be discussed no differently than any of the other ongoing problems.

And what about the previous five weeks of disciplined, relatively turnover/sack free football? Do we get to discuss those, too?

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:53 PM
And what about the previous five weeks of disciplined, relatively turnover/sack free football? Do we get to discuss those, too?

I forgot what I had you on ignore for, so I took you off to see your contributions to this thread. Glad you're here.

If you want to take a 5 game sample size against the other 97, I'm cool with that. But it's not like I can't go back to games this very year and point out the same tendencies that people have complained about for years. It's just becoming more and more evident that he's not going to change, is all.

He is what he is after 102 games.

Wolf
10-14-2012, 11:54 PM
Many teams go into the half that way . I personally thought they neded to regroup at that point Esp given the field position and the way the offensive line was blocking

fiasco west
10-14-2012, 11:54 PM
Well, for starters you call that timeout immediately and prepare for the punt. You get the special teams coach that you employ to get his players to freakin' block someone and try for a decent return. Then you come up with a couple plays that are a balance of risk vs. reward that may result in something. If they don't, you gave it an honest attempt. If they do, maybe you get a FG or even a TD.

What you don't do is kneel down on the sideline and pray to God that the half ends right then and there for the whole world to see.

You are right.

But that one mistake did not cost the team the game.

Green Bay was going to get the ball back any ways and put up 7 (we did not stop them once when we needed to) and then if we gave it a honest try it's likely the ball wasn't going to be moved.

They were just out played today and out coached. It happens though. It's more about how the team responds to something like this though.

This is the first time for Kubiak and this team as a 'powerhouse' team.

Lets see if they are going to play angry next game, hungry, and play much better... Or if they are going to come out in a shell next week and play like a team that's realized they aren't ready yet.

Bulls on Parade
10-14-2012, 11:55 PM
He's the perfect head coach when we have a lead. Trying to come back from two or three Touchdowns. Well, that's another thing. We used to have a comeback type of offense in 2009 with Kyle Shanahan as offensive coordinator. We need a young and brilliant young mind with energy at OC. His loss was the Redskins gain.

Wolf
10-14-2012, 11:56 PM
I forgot what I had you on ignore for, so I took you off to see your contributions to this thread. Glad you're here.

If you want to take a 5 game sample size against the other 97, I'm cool with that. But it's not like I can't go back to games this very year and point out the same tendencies that people have complained about for years. It's just becoming more and more evident that he's not going to change, is all.

He is what he is after 102 games.

And Kubiak had the same talent 100 games ago?

Iam not saying he isnt at fault. But different circumstances.

eriadoc
10-14-2012, 11:56 PM
You are right.

But that one mistake did not cost the team the game.

I said that above. At the risk of repeatedly repeating myself, this thread isn't about one game.

Bulls on Parade
10-14-2012, 11:57 PM
Lets see if they are going to play angry next game, hungry, and play much better... Or if they are going to come out in a shell next week and play like a team that's realized they aren't ready yet.
Against a 5-1 Ravens team just as banged up as we are? I'd imagine they'll play much better and win. We can limp into the bye week with a 6-1 record and the 1st seed in the AFC. I'll take it at this point.

fiasco west
10-14-2012, 11:59 PM
And Kubiak had the same talent 100 games ago?

Iam not saying he isnt at fault. But different circumstances.

Exactly.

I don't understand why that has that much to do with our past two seasons.

Kubes has been winning games now. People saying it's the same I disagree, because we lost so many heart wrenching close games...yall remember that?

How many games we lost on one or two plays that eventually kept us out of the playoffs? Those years?

The past two years have been different. Outside of this game the Texans have been rolling, one bad game and it's time to rethink about all the bad that has happened and forget any of the good.

Wolf
10-14-2012, 11:59 PM
I said that above. At the risk of repeatedly repeating myself, this thread isn't about one game.

Oh but it is or it wouldn't have been brought back up 10 months later at the first incident of a Texans loss. I wonder if it was bookmarked

eriadoc
10-15-2012, 12:01 AM
He's the perfect head coach when we have a lead.

I don't think I agree with that, even. He's the perfect coach when the team has the lead against an inferior opponent. He's made some decisions that have facilitated good teams coming back against the Texans by turtling and not going for the kill several times. As I said after the Saints game last year, when you face a QB like Brees, Rodgers, Brady, etc., you have to play it differently than you do when you play Gabbert. You can't sit on a lead and run the ball exclusively. This team really can't even run the ball successfully at ALL when the other team knows it's coming, to be honest. If this team needs a first down to close out the game, there's more than likely going to be a punt and a reliance upon the defense to end the game. That's fine when you face the Dolphins. Not fine when you face the Saints, Packers, Pats, etc.

He turtles. He's scared to strive for a big play because he's scared of the potential negative. His risk-reward analysis is almost entirely weighted toward risk. In other words, he's a *****.

eriadoc
10-15-2012, 12:02 AM
Oh but it is or it wouldn't have been brought back up 10 months later at the first incident of a Texans loss. I wonder if it was bookmarked

Nah, easily found. It's actually one of the longest threads ever on this board, which reflects the fact that it's not a topic that Kubiak has made us forget. Pretty easy to find.

And I have a pretty good record of posting exactly what I mean. This is not about one game.

fiasco west
10-15-2012, 12:05 AM
Against a 5-1 Ravens team just as banged up as we are? I'd imagine they'll play much better and win. We can limp into the bye week with a 6-1 record and the 1st seed in the AFC. I'll take it at this point.

I think everyone would be happy about 6-1 any ways. I'm not really scared or worried about the Ravens.

ItsMyFault
10-15-2012, 12:11 AM
I think everyone would be happy about 6-1 any ways. I'm not really scared or worried about the Ravens.

We'll get slaughtered by the Bears and Pats on the road. Idk if it's just the media attention or the stage of MNF/SNF, but we didn't play well last week on MNF either against the Jets.

fiasco west
10-15-2012, 12:13 AM
We'll get slaughtered by the Bears and Pats on the road playing like we did tonight.

Yep.

We'll lose to anyone playing like we did tonight. Also all the dumb penalties that extended dead drives really killed this team (Of course, stupid kubiak telling Barwin to display his wicked vertical on that FG try!)

GP
10-15-2012, 12:17 AM
Whatever man. Dude looked like he was in a funk before the game ever started and I made note of it. Game began and what do you know, he played like he was in a funk.

All I'm saying.

He just might have sensed that the team was ripe for getting their asses kicked.

Schaub is a smart guy. Very intuitive. Has his finger on the slow, lethargic pulse of this Kubiak-led team (LOL).

I bet that funk you're referring to was him knowing that his buddies were not ready for this. That failure was about to ensue. It started last Monday night when guys like AJ and Walter dogged a couple of routes on separate plays, IMO. Schaub probably felt like the mojo had been "off" ever since last Monday night, and he felt it was really REALLY off tonight.

Kubiak isn't taking risks lately, he's lulled himself into thinking he can squeak by a team like GB after having slow-motioned it with the previous inferior teams, almost getting caught by the Jets (which was false confidence he didn't need to feel this week, btw). He does this on the field, too, putting up a 3 & out when we're within our own 10 yard line...then the other team scores a TD off a short field and whattya' know??? We come back and look like our old selves in the next possession.

That's why I say that Gary, the HEAD COACH, is the blame here. He has instilled in this team a confidence, but it has a catch to it--The team has believed that the defense can bail out the offense every game, almost at will, and that's given the offense a laziness IMO. They have a bad series? Oh well, Wade's defense will get us the ball back. No problem! Oops.

All in all, this was a country ass-whuppin' that didn't have to happen, but it did. Gary could have come out, ran the ball down their throats, and things might have turned out differently. But what did Gary do? Two straight passes to open the game and two scrambles and throw-aways by Schaub, setting the tone for the evening...

The hilarity ensued from there. This team has to have a head coach who can sense his team's mojo is off, and so the HC must spend the week figuring out ways to get the mojo back and keep them from embarrassing themselves on national TV. Instead, the slow and steady "we just have to do what we know we are capable of" attitude kept everybody from being REALISTS with themselves.

The only way Gary can keep up the same old "we just have to do what we know we are capable of" attitude is precisely because he has a defense who can allow him to do that still, and tonight that ace-in-the-hole card wasn't even in the deck to begin with. It went AWOL tonight. And Gary should have found ways to get a better hand than the one he played.

And hats off to GB for manning up and kicking our ass. They deserved the win. We didn't lose this game, they WON it. Congrats to them. They played well.

GP
10-15-2012, 12:26 AM
And he doesn't need to be fired.

We're dancing with the one who brung us, and he's the guy daddy McNair chose for us to go to the dance with. So smile real big, and grab his hand and dance with him already. He's your date for the evening. Get over it.

Last thing we need is to have arguments over this, precisely because it's not even gonna' happen. Not in a million years. He's signed on to an extension, he's McNair's guy, and this is just a hiccup that will pass (hopefully).

What we need to pray for is that the offense realizes it has to hit a new level within itself, and do it NOW. Not a few weeks from now. I am hoping Matt Schaub is disgusted with it all and that he finds a way to lead the guys out of the funk that started brewing last Monday night.

There is some cronyism going on, though, that will be hard to overcome:

1. Kubiak's loyalty to his special teams coach...which means Marciano ain't going anywhere, either, and this season will be a Marciano special teams group all year long. I don't even think he'd get canned after this year, tbh.

2. Wade's love for Bradie James and Connor Barwin. For whatever reason, Wade has married himself to those two guys despite them never really impacting the game much at all. I'll throw in Alan Ball, too. Loyalty makes guys blind to reality, and I still cannot see why Barwin--6 games into the year--is being kept out there as much as Wade has him out there.

It's not the end of the world, but it stings to see the winning streak halted like THIS. Lose by a FG, or even one TD? Fine. Get torched on primetime? Not OK.

dream_team
10-15-2012, 12:41 AM
All in all, this was a country ass-whuppin' that didn't have to happen, but it did. Gary could have come out, ran the ball down their throats, and things might have turned out differently. But what did Gary do? Two straight passes to open the game and two scrambles and throw-aways by Schaub, setting the tone for the evening...

I agree, we SHOULD have been able to run it down their throats. But we weren't able to. Foster ran the ball 17 times for an average of 1.7 ypc. So what makes you think we would have been able to run on them at all?

GP
10-15-2012, 12:52 AM
I agree, we SHOULD have been able to run it down their throats. But we weren't able to. Foster ran the ball 17 times for an average of 1.7 ypc. So what makes you think we would have been able to run on them at all?

You have to make a solid commitment to run the ball. Period.

The O-Line has to line up in 1st down on the first play of the game, and they have to be of the mindset that their RB (Foster) is going to get 3 or 4 yards on this play no matter what happens.

Then on 2nd down, whatever play is called, they have to perform their roles perfectly and hope the QB and/or RB/WR perform theirs perfectly, as well.

And so the momentum is built.

But tonight? Kubiak tried to cash in YET ANOTHER play action pass on the very first play and the Packers called that bluff. And so the panic set in. On second down? Same thing. Same results.

It's like Kubiak was thrown completely off balance because his script wasn't working. Everybody flinched. EVERYBODY. Posey offsides. Packers score a TD immediately. 3 and out for us. Packers score a TD. Fumbled snap. Stupid penalty on Barwin? First down. Penalty on Manning for punching. Busted coverages on crucial 3rd down...TD Packers. I can't name them all.

He might want to develop a new strategy for the opening possessions vs the Ravens, or we're going to be 5-2 very quickly. This is HIS team, and he sort of mailed this in tonight, IMO.

Wade laid an egg, too, but this whole team is Gary's. He should have seen the signs that were being posted as far back as last Monday night. This team was showing signs of nodding off last Monday night.

dream_team
10-15-2012, 01:09 AM
You have to make a solid commitment to run the ball. Period.

The O-Line has to line up in 1st down on the first play of the game, and they have to be of the mindset that their RB (Foster) is going to get 3 or 4 yards on this play no matter what happens.

Then on 2nd down, whatever play is called, they have to perform their roles perfectly and hope the QB and/or RB/WR perform theirs perfectly, as well.

And so the momentum is built.

But tonight? Kubiak tried to cash in YET ANOTHER play action pass on the very first play and the Packers called that bluff. And so the panic set in. On second down? Same thing. Same results.

It's like Kubiak was thrown completely off balance because his script wasn't working. Everybody flinched. EVERYBODY. Posey offsides. Packers score a TD immediately. 3 and out for us. Packers score a TD. Fumbled snap. Stupid penalty on Barwin? First down. Penalty on Manning for punching. Busted coverages on crucial 3rd down...TD Packers. I can't name them all.

He might want to develop a new strategy for the opening possessions vs the Ravens, or we're going to be 5-2 very quickly. This is HIS team, and he sort of mailed this in tonight, IMO.

Wade laid an egg, too, but this whole team is Gary's. He should have seen the signs that were being posted as far back as last Monday night. This team was showing signs of nodding off last Monday night.

Sure, I'm with you that I would have like to have seen Kubiak try to establish the run early. But I don't think things would have been different if he did. Texans struggled to run on the Packers, I don't think it would have made a difference if we started off the game running.

This was by far the worst game of the season for the OL. Quite surprising considering all of the injuries on GB's side. They couldn't run block and struggled with pass pro. For supposedly one of the best OLs in the league, they failed to show up today.

GP
10-15-2012, 01:16 AM
Sure, I'm with you that I would have like to have seen Kubiak try to establish the run early. But I don't think things would have been different if he did. Texans struggled to run on the Packers, I don't think it would have made a difference if we started off the game running.

This was by far the worst game of the season for the OL. Quite surprising considering all of the injuries on GB's side. They couldn't run block and struggled with pass pro. For supposedly one of the best OLs in the league, they failed to show up today.

But the problem of pass pro, IMO, was due to not establishing an early run game.

In that sense, the Texans invited the Packers to blitz like maniacs all night long.

There should have been sweeps, RB screen plays galore, draw plays, shovel passes, reverses to Keshawn, everything in the book thrown at the Packers.

Kubiak just wanted to gunsling and forgot who he was playing. Period. And then our defense acted like they wouldn't decide if they were going to play the run or the pass the whole game. One defense looked sure of what they wanted to accomplish, the other? Nope.

One offense set out to pass on the defense and succeeded. The other set to to pass and couldn't get it done.

Kubiak picked a poison and he chose the wrong one. It backfired tonight.

dream_team
10-15-2012, 01:24 AM
But the problem of pass pro, IMO, was due to not establishing an early run game.

In that sense, the Texans invited the Packers to blitz like maniacs all night long.

There should have been sweeps, RB screen plays galore, draw plays, shovel passes, reverses to Keshawn, everything in the book thrown at the Packers.

Kubiak just wanted to gunsling and forgot who he was playing. Period. And then our defense acted like they wouldn't decide if they were going to play the run or the pass the whole game. One defense looked sure of what they wanted to accomplish, the other? Nope.

One offense set out to pass on the defense and succeeded. The other set to to pass and couldn't get it done.

Kubiak picked a poison and he chose the wrong one. It backfired tonight.

Which reminds me... where's the Wade bashing? The defense gave up 6 passing TDs, a backup RB had an effective game today, and with Watt being doubled, there was no pass rush. I thought that OL had trouble protecting Rodgers all season? Why is Kubiak only getting all of the blame?

thunderkyss
10-15-2012, 02:16 AM
I'd like to know what kind of conversation Gary had with Wade. That's going to tell us whether or not he has what it takes to be a head coach.

If he has the talk with Wade that he needs to have, the same talk he needs to have with his OC, and a step change is made, then that's what a HC is supposed to do.

If he can't bring himself to talk to Wade, to provide critique, for whatever reason (he's scared, or he has no influence on Wade since McNair hired him) then we're going to go the way of Wade's Dallas Cowboys.

How are we going to know if Kubiak had that discussion with Wade? Most likely we won't. But when he still talks about being a head coach in the media... kinda lets you know. When you see our defensive stars mocking the other team with the discount double check & the predator... kinda lets you know.

But the Seahawks beat the Patriots today.

Showtime100
10-15-2012, 02:19 AM
I'd like to know what kind of conversation Gary had with Wade. That's going to tell us whether or not he has what it takes to be a head coach.

If he has the talk with Wade that he needs to have, the same talk he needs to have with his OC, and a step change is made, then that's what a HC is supposed to do.

If he can't bring himself to talk to Wade, to provide critique, for whatever reason (he's scared, or he has no influence on Wade since McNair hired him) then we're going to go the way of Wade's Dallas Cowboys.

How are we going to know if Kubiak had that discussion with Wade? Most likely we won't. But when he still talks about being a head coach in the media... kinda lets you know. When you see our defensive stars mocking the other team with the discount double check & the predator... kinda lets you know.

But the Seahawks beat the Patriots today.

What??

steelbtexan
10-15-2012, 08:17 AM
All that needs to be said is,

Gary is who we thought he was.

Gary growing as a HC = LOL

Dread-Head
10-15-2012, 08:19 AM
Defense was all over the place, refs (and the commentators of NBC) were getting off their knees just long enough from blowing Aaron Rodgers to say how much the Texans suck and it was as much a Packer win as it was a Texan breakdown in communication. One loss does not obliterate the entire season.

GP
10-15-2012, 08:38 AM
I'd like to know what kind of conversation Gary had with Wade. That's going to tell us whether or not he has what it takes to be a head coach.

If he has the talk with Wade that he needs to have, the same talk he needs to have with his OC, and a step change is made, then that's what a HC is supposed to do.

If he can't bring himself to talk to Wade, to provide critique, for whatever reason (he's scared, or he has no influence on Wade since McNair hired him) then we're going to go the way of Wade's Dallas Cowboys.

How are we going to know if Kubiak had that discussion with Wade? Most likely we won't. But when he still talks about being a head coach in the media... kinda lets you know. When you see our defensive stars mocking the other team with the discount double check & the predator... kinda lets you know.

But the Seahawks beat the Patriots today.

QFT.

All of it.

Say Watt
10-15-2012, 08:49 AM
All that needs to be said is,

Gary is who we thought he was.

Gary growing as a HC = LOL

Exactly.

I'm not saying we should fire Gary right now. Obviously that would be idiotic to do when you are a 5-1 football team. But Gary has improved?!? In what ways exactly?

The only improvement I am seeing is he actually has a decent defensive coordinator now. Other than that, he is making the same kind of mistakes he made in year one with the Texans and most of us are aware of exactly what those mistakes are.

I think it's time we change Gary's name to Turtle.

I'm not saying we can't win with Gary Kubiak as head coach. But I'd feel a lot more comfortable if a guy like Chucky was at the helm.

buddyboy
10-15-2012, 08:56 AM
I'm starting to wonder if there was any way short of going 16-0 that this thread/sentiment wouldn't have been brought up. It's shocking how one loss (as bad as it is) considering the level of talent and competition in the league can send people on tilt

Hervoyel
10-15-2012, 09:26 AM
Last night really bothered me. I remember back in 2002 going to a signing event with Corey Bradford. There was a huge line and the Texans had just been beaten by somebody. I don't remember what I said to him but I remember him telling me "No man, we let all ya'll down Sunday". He looked genuinely sorry that they hadn't been able to keep up with whoever it was the beat them. I told him that they didn't let anybody down and that things would get better.

Last night this group of Texans with a handful of exceptions genuinely let us down. I think of Jack Pardee's hyper-talented Oilers teams that didn't play up to their ability and that's what was on display last night. The previous 5 weeks it was mostly playing precise careful, winning football. Last night was undisciplined crap.

utahmark
10-15-2012, 09:46 AM
16 and 7 over our last 23 games. 13 and 4 when our starting qb plays. Our recent history is anything but mediocre. We lost to a great team than needed to prove a point after starting out poorly. We were coming off a short week. Teams lose!

Double Barrel
10-15-2012, 10:26 AM
This was prior to his having his "ass handed to him by Dom Capers".

I think it's obvious: HIRE DOM!!! :fingergun:

Last night really bothered me. I remember back in 2002 going to a signing event with Corey Bradford. There was a huge line and the Texans had just been beaten by somebody. I don't remember what I said to him but I remember him telling me "No man, we let all ya'll down Sunday". He looked genuinely sorry that they hadn't been able to keep up with whoever it was the beat them. I told him that they didn't let anybody down and that things would get better.

Last night this group of Texans with a handful of exceptions genuinely let us down. I think of Jack Pardee's hyper-talented Oilers teams that didn't play up to their ability and that's what was on display last night. The previous 5 weeks it was mostly playing precise careful, winning football. Last night was undisciplined crap.

I told my son after the first play and subsequent sack that this was going to be a long game. It just had that "feel" to it. You know the one as a Houston football fan. A talented team getting way too much hype from the local and national media, individual interviews with Watt, Schaub, Foster, and everyone patting them on the back as they jump on the bandwagon.

The Texans are obviously unable to handle the glaring spotlight of success right now.

They waltzed into to Reliant last night, chests puffed out - "hey 2-3 Packers, WE are the no. 1 power ranked team in the nation. We haven't lost a game this year!"

And the Packers got to work dismantling every aspect of this team. Offense. Defense. Special Teams. Coaching.

The Texans were dominated and humiliated on prime-time.

Now let's see what kind of heart and soul this team has after a serious week-long gut check.

Their performance against the Ravens will say more about Kubiak's "evolution" than anything else. All teams lose. But the good ones bounce back and let the loss inspire them to be better.

16 and 7 over our last 23 games. 13 and 4 when our starting qb plays. Our recent history is anything but mediocre. We lost to a great team than needed to prove a point after starting out poorly. We were coming off a short week. Teams lose!

yep. It was sad to see, but I'm still hopeful that this season has many great things to come.

I told my oldest son that they were due to lose before the game. I did not expect to see the 2006 Texans out there, tho'... :winky:

That had to be embarrassing for them. Let's hope that the Ravens get the brunt of it now.

toronto
10-15-2012, 11:26 AM
Last night really bothered me. I remember back in 2002 going to a signing event with Corey Bradford. There was a huge line and the Texans had just been beaten by somebody. I don't remember what I said to him but I remember him telling me "No man, we let all ya'll down Sunday". He looked genuinely sorry that they hadn't been able to keep up with whoever it was the beat them. I told him that they didn't let anybody down and that things would get better.

Last night this group of Texans with a handful of exceptions genuinely let us down. I think of Jack Pardee's hyper-talented Oilers teams that didn't play up to their ability and that's what was on display last night. The previous 5 weeks it was mostly playing precise careful, winning football. Last night was undisciplined crap.

I chuckled when I read this because last night NBC played the old Houston Oilers #1 song while showing Bum Phillips in a suite. Hah to those memories. Man I miss that old song. :vincepalm:

toronto
10-15-2012, 11:28 AM
I think it's obvious: HIRE DOM!!! :fingergun:



I told my son after the first play and subsequent sack that this was going to be a long game. It just had that "feel" to it. You know the one as a Houston football fan. A talented team getting way too much hype from the local and national media, individual interviews with Watt, Schaub, Foster, and everyone patting them on the back as they jump on the bandwagon.

The Texans are obviously unable to handle the glaring spotlight of success right now.

They waltzed into to Reliant last night, chests puffed out - "hey 2-3 Packers, WE are the no. 1 power ranked team in the nation. We haven't lost a game this year!"

And the Packers got to work dismantling every aspect of this team. Offense. Defense. Special Teams. Coaching.

The Texans were dominated and humiliated on prime-time.

Now let's see what kind of heart and soul this team has after a serious week-long gut check.

Their performance against the Ravens will say more about Kubiak's "evolution" than anything else. All teams lose. But the good ones bounce back and let the loss inspire them to be better.



yep. It was sad to see, but I'm still hopeful that this season has many great things to come.

I told my oldest son that they were due to lose before the game. I did not expect to see the 2006 Texans out there, tho'... :winky:

That had to be embarrassing for them. Let's hope that the Ravens get the brunt of it now.

As a rival fan, I admire the hell out of this post. I also believe your team was gutted by the loss of Cushing. Moving on now is critical on the defensive side f the ball. Watt was the only player winning his battles. Other key players, especially Joseph, were just torched.

Perki-Perk
10-15-2012, 11:29 AM
Fire Kubiak!
Fire Phillips!
Cut Joseph!
Cut Shaub!
Cut Foster!

Just blow the whole thing up and start over!

Aaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!

/sarcasm

Playoffs
10-15-2012, 11:31 AM
I'm starting to wonder if there was any way short of going 16-0 that this thread/sentiment wouldn't have been brought up. It's shocking how one loss (as bad as it is) considering the level of talent and competition in the league can send people on tilt

16 and 7 over our last 23 games. 13 and 4 when our starting qb plays. Our recent history is anything but mediocre. We lost to a great team than needed to prove a point after starting out poorly. We were coming off a short week. Teams lose!

No, no, you guys have it all wrong. 5-1, we fire Kubiak. We lost a game, for crying out loud! (We don't fire the DC who gave up 42 points... that wouldn't make sense.http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc366/PlagueEleven/Smileys/no.gif)

The Giants should have fired Tom Coughlin last year when they lost the 3rd of 4 straight losses to the Saints 49-24. Moved their record to 6-5 on the way to 6-6. Stoopid Giants blew their chance at dumping Coughlin and ended up winning the Super Bowl. Dumbazzes. http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/red-neck-laughing-smiley-emoticon.gif

Also, look for the 49ers to be firing Jim Harbaugh this week after that humiliating 26-3 loss to New York. Bye bye, Jim http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/Smileys/default/wave2.gif... we should've fired you after losing to the lowly Vikings.

Bill Belichick is 3-3 after losing to Pete Carroll's rah-rahhttp://www.smiley-faces.org/smiley-faces/smiley-face-cheer.gif Seahawks. He would have been fired years ago if he didn't have those compromising:photos:pictures of his owner Robert Kraft. I mean, geez, the Pats lost to the Cardinals in week 2.


Getting the hang of it, now? This is how edumecated Texans fans think. This is how the intelligencia of NFL fans think, modeled after the greatest fans in all of sport: the revered Philly fan. http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii17/Surinderjit/duncesmiley.gif

bckey
10-15-2012, 04:49 PM
I think it's obvious: HIRE DOM!!! :fingergun:



I told my son after the first play and subsequent sack that this was going to be a long game. It just had that "feel" to it. You know the one as a Houston football fan. A talented team getting way too much hype from the local and national media, individual interviews with Watt, Schaub, Foster, and everyone patting them on the back as they jump on the bandwagon.

The Texans are obviously unable to handle the glaring spotlight of success right now.

They waltzed into to Reliant last night, chests puffed out - "hey 2-3 Packers, WE are the no. 1 power ranked team in the nation. We haven't lost a game this year!"

And the Packers got to work dismantling every aspect of this team. Offense. Defense. Special Teams. Coaching.

The Texans were dominated and humiliated on prime-time.

Now let's see what kind of heart and soul this team has after a serious week-long gut check.

Their performance against the Ravens will say more about Kubiak's "evolution" than anything else. All teams lose. But the good ones bounce back and let the loss inspire them to be better.



yep. It was sad to see, but I'm still hopeful that this season has many great things to come.

I told my oldest son that they were due to lose before the game. I did not expect to see the 2006 Texans out there, tho'... :winky:

That had to be embarrassing for them. Let's hope that the Ravens get the brunt of it now.


I went to bed after the 3rd touchdown by GB. And I never miss a game but you could just tell with this one. I've seen that waaaayy too many times as an old Oiler fan and Texan fan from the start. I just didn't want to subject myself to the pain of watching a primetime meltdown by the Texans.

I just hope they don't embarrass us on thanksgiving. The rest of the primetime games are on the road and tough. I don't expect them to beat the Patriots in December and maybe not the Bears on sunday night but please beat the Lions on turkey day. I don't want to spew out some long tirade of filth and break a tv in front of sleepy family members with full bellies.

It was only one game but it does reaffirm my belief that Kubiak in never going to get it as a head coach. No light is going to suddenly come on for this guy. I also realize he isn't going anywhere. But when that day finally does come in some distant future they need to send Rick Smith packing with him. I'm no fan of either.

thunderkyss
10-15-2012, 05:16 PM
We lost to a great team than needed to prove a point after starting out poorly. We were coming off a short week. Teams lose!

Wouldn't it be sweet if the other team was saying this?

utahmark
10-15-2012, 05:22 PM
Wouldn't it be sweet if the other team was saying this?

Baltimore will be next week.:boogie:

thunderkyss
10-15-2012, 05:35 PM
Baltimore will be next week.:boogie:

I used to look at next weeks opponents, if they lost, I would be like, "damn!! they're going to give us 110%, especially if it were a "good" team."

I'm hoping the fans of other teams are saying the same thing about us. Not like when I look at Miami, I couldn't care less what happened to Miami the week before. They've never beat us, & most likely never will (watch.. this just jinxed us & Miami will beat us in our first play-off game this season).

Wolf
10-15-2012, 09:27 PM
hell I figured the Packers would be fired up after the loss to the Colts

CloakNNNdagger
10-15-2012, 09:41 PM
I feel that our upcoming opponents' feelings of new-found confidence will quickly change to fear when they realize WE STILL WON THE TIME OF POSSESSION.:kitten:

Craig.
10-15-2012, 09:45 PM
16 and 7 over our last 23 games. 13 and 4 when our starting qb plays. Our recent history is anything but mediocre. We lost to a great team than needed to prove a point after starting out poorly. We were coming off a short week. Teams lose!

That's ridiculous. They need to clean house. Nobody is safe.

TEXANRED
10-15-2012, 09:52 PM
Blah

Goatcheese
10-16-2012, 09:44 AM
Oh look, it's this thread again. Sometimes I think that Texans fans are a bunch of immature little kids in adult's bodies who can't be rational after a loss, but then I read Texanstalk and... wait, nope I'm right.

The Pencil Neck
10-16-2012, 10:39 AM
We were going to lose at some point. It's a pisser that it was such a horrible loss in a game we probably should have and could have won. But the Packers are still a really good team despite having a meltdown against the Colts and getting jobbed against the Seahawks.

The loss of Cush really hurt us. Hopefully, Wade can figure out a way to make this work because right now, it's not working.

And we need to get back to doing what we do on the offensive side of the ball. We need to settle down and start pounding the rock.

But it's just a game. We might lose the next one, too. It's going to be a tough game but it's a winnable game. We need to get the ship righted.

Trail.Blazr
10-16-2012, 11:09 AM
Oh look, it's this thread again. Sometimes I think that Texans fans are a bunch of immature little kids in adult's bodies who can't be rational after a loss, but then I read Texanstalk and... wait, nope I'm right.

HAHA! You speak the truth.

I am simply amazed to come to he board and see this thread. It's too comical to feel ashamed, so I'll stick with amazed.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/lol-facepalm.gif

IlliniJen
10-16-2012, 11:21 AM
Oh look, it's this thread again. Sometimes I think that Texans fans are a bunch of immature little kids in adult's bodies who can't be rational after a loss, but then I read Texanstalk and... wait, nope I'm right.

Don't go into gameday threads when the team is losing. It's the worst. People are running around with their hair on fire eating babies and kicking puppies.

The Pencil Neck
10-16-2012, 03:28 PM
Don't go into gameday threads when the team is losing. It's the worst. People are running around with their hair on fire eating babies and kicking puppies.

People are running around with their hair on fire, eating babies and kicking puppies when we're ahead a lot of times in those threads.

They're great to go back and read after a win.

After a loss, I leave them be.

GP
10-16-2012, 05:22 PM
Don't go into gameday threads when the team is losing. It's the worst. People are running around with their hair on fire eating babies and kicking puppies.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h361/nighttimer/trolling.jpg

drs23
10-16-2012, 05:47 PM
Tonight's one game had little to do with adjustments and everything to do with terrible discipline. The offside call on the punt is inexcusable. That's for starters.

No disrespect, but you get a swelled head after starting 5-0 and deservedly so, but in the last week two things happened...

You lost your best defensive player
They're were pissed off like hell and played like the top contending team they are supposed to be.

This is still a 12-4 team that, if they can beat Baltimore, has a potential lock on home field throughout the playoffs. Next weeks game for your team is a much bigger test, and it tlooks like they too, will be missing their heart and soul if Rey Rey is gone...

It happens. I'm sure 49er fans feel the same way tonight too.

There's no room for sane reasoning here. One must hate on the head coach or else. :kitten:

steelbtexan
10-16-2012, 06:06 PM
Good news for the Texans is that Rodgers wont be playing QB against them this week.

dalemurphy
10-16-2012, 06:43 PM
Good news for the Texans is that Rodgers wont be playing QB against them this week.

Very good news!

I agree with some of the posters that mentioned the overuse of man defense in the game. We needed to drop into more zone coverages and hammer on those guys and slow them down a little. It was a good learning experience and something I'm sure they'll recognize in film study.

My larger concern was the inability to run the ball. Not only that but GB seemed to know exactly when it was a run and when it was play action... I have to believe they picked up a key on one of the linemen, or something. Only the straight drop back passes ever seemed to catch the Pack off guard... that was odd...

Let's see how the team responds. Remember, we had a short turn around, after the Monday night game and the defense had to adjust to Cushing's loss... It was predictable that they were going to struggle. The offense needs to step up and lead the team to a win this week and give the defense a chance to reorganize over the bye and fully prepare to continue without Cushing.

steelbtexan
10-16-2012, 06:51 PM
Very good news!

I agree with some of the posters that mentioned the overuse of man defense in the game. We needed to drop into more zone coverages and hammer on those guys and slow them down a little. It was a good learning experience and something I'm sure they'll recognize in film study.

My larger concern was the inability to run the ball. Not only that but GB seemed to know exactly when it was a run and when it was play action... I have to believe they picked up a key on one of the linemen, or something. Only the straight drop back passes ever seemed to catch the Pack off guard... that was odd...

Let's see how the team responds. Remember, we had a short turn around, after the Monday night game and the defense had to adjust to Cushing's loss... It was predictable that they were going to struggle. The offense needs to step up and lead the team to a win this week and give the defense a chance to reorganize over the bye and fully prepare to continue without Cushing.

This post expressed my thoughts better than I could have myself.

I still think they need a vertical threat opposite AJ to help loosen things up in the run game, especially against good teams.

Goatcheese
10-16-2012, 08:06 PM
What I don't understand is "FIRE KUBIAK" after a game we lost because our defense gave up a gazillion points. Sure the offense was mediocre, but the defense was flat out bad. If you're going to call for somebody's head after that melt down wouldn't it be Son of Bum?

Of course nobody went there, because firing a coach over one game would be crazy... ahem.

dalemurphy
10-16-2012, 08:12 PM
This post expressed my thoughts better than I could have myself.

I still think they need a vertical threat opposite AJ to help loosen things up in the run game, especially against good teams.

Agreed... However, while it is early to have certainty, I believe Lestar Jean can fill this role very well... I also think Martin adds an explosive dynamic that is very useful in the slot. He just needs to be more consistent. So, I feel good about it. I think this team did not know how to respond to trailing by multiple scores late in the game and, therefore, reacted poorly. It was a good experience for them. We can not expect to simply manage the game constantly in the lead, especially against some of the better teams.

I'm hopeful we see some improvement this week. I certainly hope to see Lestar Jean stretching the field some this week. Let's keep an eye on how many snaps he has with AJ... versus replacing him.

SCOTTexans
10-16-2012, 10:21 PM
Fire Kubiak!
Fire Phillips!
Cut Joseph!
Cut Shaub!
Cut Foster!

Just blow the whole thing up and start over!

Aaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!

/sarcasm

6-1 and the loss was to the packers :panic:


The texan's head just got to big, it needed to be deflated... can't wait for the ravens this week we're gonna play angry!

steelbtexan
10-16-2012, 10:38 PM
Agreed... However, while it is early to have certainty, I believe Lestar Jean can fill this role very well... I also think Martin adds an explosive dynamic that is very useful in the slot. He just needs to be more consistent. So, I feel good about it. I think this team did not know how to respond to trailing by multiple scores late in the game and, therefore, reacted poorly. It was a good experience for them. We can not expect to simply manage the game constantly in the lead, especially against some of the better teams.

I'm hopeful we see some improvement this week. I certainly hope to see Lestar Jean stretching the field some this week. Let's keep an eye on how many snaps he has with AJ... versus replacing him.

Jeans inability to stay healthy bothers me. Martin is a player. Perfect slot guy/KR/PR.

The defense really missed Cushings intensity/leadership when things got tough. Much more than I thought they would.

TEXANRED
10-16-2012, 10:50 PM
Why is this thread still alive? Oh right, dumbasses like me keep posting in it.

Please for the love of God lock this thread. Fire Kubiak after starting 5-1? This is embarrassing for our fan base.

thunderkyss
10-16-2012, 10:55 PM
6-1 and the loss was to the packers :panic:


The texan's head just got to big, it needed to be deflated... can't wait for the ravens this week we're gonna play angry!

The 49ers have never lost back to back games since Harbaugh got there. Granted, they've only had 4 opportunities to date, but it's still an interesting stat. I've got a personal criteria for judging good teams. Good teams do not lose three in a row.

Not losing back to back games over a 24 game period.... that's elite.

chicagotexan2
10-16-2012, 11:07 PM
I think we need to fire kubiak ASAP and rehire capers because its clear that he can right this sinking ship. We are 5-1. I'd rather be 6-0 but ill take it. Kubiak is not bill Walsh but we could be in worse situations so calm the Phuket down people.

brakos82
11-18-2012, 01:38 PM
:kitten:

SCOTTexans
11-18-2012, 01:47 PM
:kitten:


You are evil....

Playoffs
11-18-2012, 01:50 PM
:kitten:

http://cdn.styleforum.net/5/52/52e196e1_lighten_up_francis.jpeg

Lady.Gaga.3000
11-18-2012, 03:18 PM
I saw it coming. As soon as AJ caught that ball into FG territory, I knew Kubes was gonna go ultra conservative. Why not keep attacking for a better percentage FG? We had 2 timeouts. I know I wasn't the only one who saw that coming. Someone back me up here. Settling for a long FG even pre-false start.

Exascor
11-18-2012, 03:56 PM
:kitten:Obnoxious. Fire Wade Phillips maybe? Yup - just as ridiculous.

htownfan32
11-18-2012, 03:57 PM
Not this thread again

76Texan
11-18-2012, 04:00 PM
And a lot of people left early and missed out an exciting game, LOL

Marcus
11-18-2012, 04:02 PM
Why is this thread still alive? Oh right, dumbasses like me keep posting in it.

Please for the love of God lock this thread. Fire Kubiak after starting 9-1? This is embarrassing for our fan base.

Fixed it for ya. F'king bunch of morons.

SAMURAITEXAN
11-18-2012, 04:04 PM
Fire Kubiak, REALLY? :wadepalm:

76Texan
11-18-2012, 04:10 PM
Fire Kubiak, REALLY? :wadepalm:

Brakes was just having fun stirring the pot, LOL

Goatcheese
11-18-2012, 04:44 PM
Hello my old friend. We meet again.

thunderkyss
11-18-2012, 05:16 PM
And a lot of people left early and missed out an exciting game, LOL

The score board was screwed up. Some people didn't know we were going to overtime. They thought we lost when we missed that field goal. The people next to me came back halfway through OT. Said he didn't know.

ObsiWan
11-18-2012, 05:21 PM
I saw it coming. As soon as AJ caught that ball into FG territory, I knew Kubes was gonna go ultra conservative. Why not keep attacking for a better percentage FG? We had 2 timeouts. I know I wasn't the only one who saw that coming. Someone back me up here. Settling for a long FG even pre-false start.

That we made the FG (the pre-false start one) tells me it was the right strategy.

By the way, what would you have called? End zone shot? Stretch play? Screen? Did you NOT see the Jags going back into deep zone protecting against the deep ball? What would you have called?

Showtime100
11-18-2012, 11:13 PM
That we made the FG (the pre-false start one) tells me it was the right strategy.

By the way, what would you have called? End zone shot? Stretch play? Screen? Did you NOT see the Jags going back into deep zone protecting against the deep ball? What would you have called?

If I was coach we would have been up by 3 touchdowns.

Corrosion
11-19-2012, 12:22 AM
Even with two turnovers leading to points prior to that ? Along with the two missed FG's ?!


Buddy Ryan punched Kevin Gilbride over the chuck and duck .... He'd probably hug Gary for his offense.


This team is 9-1 ..... and won an overtime game where:

They lost the turnover battle including one deep in their end of the field.

The defense gave up three plays of 63 yards or more

Gave up three TD's on third down and long

Had two missed FG's ... one made taken away by a penalty

Has a two game lead on everyone in the conference for home field thru-out the playoffs .....

And people still wanna complain about Kubiak.


Is your wonderlic lower than this guy's -----> :vincepalm:


Some of you will complain if his team wins the Superbowl ....

htownfan32
11-19-2012, 02:29 AM
The :trapstar: is strong with this thread

thunderkyss
11-19-2012, 04:43 AM
Some of you will complain if his team wins the Superbowl ....

& some guys won't complain if his team doesn't.

At no time during the game did I ever think.... "damn, we suck!!" or Gary sucks, or anything like that. I thought, "Those Jags are playing inspired football."

They didn't make any mistakes until late in the 4th. They protected their QB. They mixed up their play calls, they had enough movement on Defense to make Schaub rethink his pre-snap reads.

It wasn't like we were playing sloppy football, we were doing what we always did & dammit, a division team didn't fall for the rope-a-dope.

At the same time, we saw some of our limitations.

Arian Foster falls down with minimal contact.
Forsett didn't seem to have a problem running to the right
Owen Daniels is our deep threat
If it's not Jj Watt getting it done, it's not getting done
Kareem got beat by a physical freak


I know we want to use the excuse that the right side of our line just isn't gelling, but both Forsett & Foster was able to get through holes on the right side as well as the left side. We're just not seeing those big plays out of the running game that we're used to. I really don't know why not. Receivers not blocking downfield?? But I'm convinced something's wrong with Arian. minimal contact is bringing him down. I'd love to have seen Ben Tate in that game last night.

We're 10 games into the season. Why isn't LeStar Jean or Keshawn Martin integrated into our regular offense? Why are we predominately coming out in 3+ TE sets?? Garrett Graham had an awesome game, & we make teams cover the field from sideline to sideline. But we are not stretching the field.

I was impressed with our defense stopping the run. Again, the score did not take away the run game. There was a couple of big plays in their run game, but for the most part I was impressed.

Antonio Smith played a great game. But, we still need him to finish. There's a big difference between getting hurried/rushed & getting hit. If you hit the QB, he's flustered the next time you hurry/rush him. If you're just getting in his face now & then... he's laughing at you as he completes 76 yard bombs for TDs. We need someone other than Jj Watt to get it done on a regular basis. Connor Barwin... where you at? It's silly to ask JjWatt to do any more, but that front seven has to deliver.

Without the pass rush, our secondary is suspect..... I don't think any more than anyone else's secondary, but with Jjo battling injury all year long, we're in deep doo-doo if someone other than Jj Watt doesn't step up.


I don't believe there is an excuse to still be struggling with some of these issues 10 weeks in, not stretching the field & Arian's vegan diet being the biggest issues.

At the same time, I never expected this team to be perfect...... just win baby.

thunderkyss
11-19-2012, 04:45 AM
Oh yeah, Justin Blackmon is a stud.

drs23
11-19-2012, 11:17 AM
Some of you will complain if his team wins the Superbowl ....

You can bet on that. It's going to happen. Bank it.

Playoffs
11-19-2012, 11:22 AM
Some of you will complain if his team wins the Superbowl ....Super Bowl? Whaaaa!

http://thumbnails.hulu.com/424/40034424/40034424_384x288_generated.jpg

gwallaia
11-19-2012, 11:24 AM
And a lot of people left early and missed out an exciting game, LOL

I saw that. What in the Hell are these people doing at the game anyway?

Craig.
11-19-2012, 12:42 PM
I saw that. What in the Hell are these people doing at the game anyway?

My theory was that people thought when J-ville kicked their last field goal that the game was over. The d-bag behind us insisted as much but, sadly, didn't leave.

76Texan
11-19-2012, 02:41 PM
I saw that. What in the Hell are these people doing at the game anyway?

I can understand a 3PM game and especially a late game, but a noon game?

Dutchrudder
11-19-2012, 02:43 PM
I saw it coming. As soon as AJ caught that ball into FG territory, I knew Kubes was gonna go ultra conservative. Why not keep attacking for a better percentage FG? We had 2 timeouts. I know I wasn't the only one who saw that coming. Someone back me up here. Settling for a long FG even pre-false start.

Well, if you can't enjoy good football, at least you can enjoy good music.




Oh wait, nevermind...

GlassHalfFull
11-19-2012, 03:38 PM
Well, if you can't enjoy good football, at least you can enjoy good music.




Oh wait, nevermind...

:ahhaha:

utahmark
11-19-2012, 03:51 PM
I don't believe there is an excuse to still be struggling with some of these issues 10 weeks in, not stretching the field & Arian's vegan diet being the biggest issues.

At the same time, I never expected this team to be perfect...... just win baby.

There were at least 3 deep balls that I can count. Not sure how you think the passing game can get better. In the history of the nfl it has only been beter once.

About Arians diet - I am pretty sure Gary can't force him to eat meat.

thunderkyss
11-19-2012, 04:20 PM
About Arians diet - I am pretty sure Gary can't force him to eat meat.

Just tell him it's a soy steak.

eriadoc
12-10-2012, 09:40 PM
From the gameday thread:

I wish Kubiak would run up the F'n middle some

kubiak get the fuk outtta here with this bullshyt

Play calling has been horrid

Horrible, predictable playcalling by Kubiak

OMG.

One yard short.

This is why Kubiak is a bad HC. ...

He really is a bad HC.

When do we see ANY good team with a "gaudy" record fold like this???? NEVER!!!!!!

I just don't get it. 11-1 and THIS is what we show up with??????????

Kubes, I never liked ya, never will.

GP
12-10-2012, 09:42 PM
He won't get fired.

Nothing will be done. Not even going to see Marciano get fired.

At this point, it wouldn't matter either way. This team is way too Kubiak-built to start over with a new guy at the wheel.

ATXtexanfan
12-10-2012, 09:44 PM
Kubiak and schaub are a perfect blend of average.

TexansBlood
12-10-2012, 09:57 PM
Our D finally stepped up and our O stayed the same...

Hervoyel
12-10-2012, 09:58 PM
Nothing will happen. We've won our "franchise best" 11th game this year. We're going to the playoffs this year. We may still get home field advantage this year. Bob is happy and lets face fact, why wouldn't he be? Because we got annihilated by two great offenses this year? Big deal, games still sold out. Team is winning and we'll get em in the playoffs. That's what Bob thinks I'm sure.

I only remember once seeing a football team that could be successful while looking so bad at the same time and that was the Glanville/Pardee era Oilers. Stacked with talent and always coming up short in the important games. Always coming up short in the games that you would give anything to see them win in.

It just sucks all the give-a-damn out of your heart when they do this kind of thing and they do it so often that you never grow to trust them. You never really believe in them the way that Cowboys and Steelers fans in the 70's or 49er's fans in the 80's (or Patriots fans now) believe in their team. You always know that they're going to screw it up somehow or go on national television and become the laughing stock of the league when they get a chance to establish that they're legitimate. It's stomach churning. It's heart breaking. It's the Houston Texans. Even when they're winning regularly they can still manage to find a way to make you slightly embarrassed of them.

JVL713
12-10-2012, 10:00 PM
Give the team to Gruden, he clearly likes what we have to offer.

GP
12-10-2012, 10:02 PM
Nothing will happen. We've won our "franchise best" 11th game this year. We're going to the playoffs this year. We may still get home field advantage this year. Bob is happy and lets face fact, why wouldn't he be? Because we got annihilated by two great offenses this year? Big deal, games still sold out. Team is winning and we'll get em in the playoffs. That's what Bob thinks I'm sure.

I only remember once seeing a football team that could be successful while looking so bad at the same time and that was the Glanville/Pardee era Oilers. Stacked with talent and always coming up short in the important games. Always coming up short in the games that you would give anything to see them win in.

It just sucks all the give-a-damn out of your heart when they do this kind of thing and they do it so often that you never grow to trust them. You never really believe in them the way that Cowboys and Steelers fans in the 70's or 49er's fans in the 80's (or Patriots fans now) believe in their team. You always know that they're going to screw it up somehow or go on national television and become the laughing stock of the league when they get a chance to establish that they're legitimate. It's stomach churning. It's heart breaking. It's the Houston Texans. Even when they're winning regularly they can still manage to find a way to make you slightly embarrassed of them.

It's like poetry. That's perfectly worded. All of it.

Wolf
12-10-2012, 10:04 PM
So we get annihated by great qbs. So fire wade?

Marcus
12-10-2012, 10:09 PM
So where is the All Encompassing FIRE WADE PHILLIPS thread?

Makes about as much sense as bumping this back to the top.

Just throw a brick into the TV and start worrying about the Colts.

eriadoc
12-10-2012, 10:09 PM
I only remember once seeing a football team that could be successful while looking so bad at the same time and that was the Glanville/Pardee era Oilers. Stacked with talent and always coming up short in the important games. Always coming up short in the games that you would give anything to see them win in.

It just sucks all the give-a-damn out of your heart when they do this kind of thing and they do it so often that you never grow to trust them. You never really believe in them the way that Cowboys and Steelers fans in the 70's or 49er's fans in the 80's (or Patriots fans now) believe in their team. You always know that they're going to screw it up somehow or go on national television and become the laughing stock of the league when they get a chance to establish that they're legitimate. It's stomach churning. It's heart breaking. It's the Houston Texans. Even when they're winning regularly they can still manage to find a way to make you slightly embarrassed of them.

Rep. Whether people like to admit it out loud or not, they don't trust Kubiak. I welcome anyone to go dig through gameday threads and read all the in-the-moment comments blasting Kubiak, even in games that ended up as wins. People don't trust him because at the end of the day, humans have this highly developed ability to RECOGNIZE PATTERNS.

Hookem Horns
12-10-2012, 10:11 PM
I rest my case about Kubiak.

The guy is just not at the level of the elite or even real good coaches of the league. He can't compete against them. The Belichick's, Coughlin's, etc will eat his lunch any day of the week.

eriadoc
12-10-2012, 10:12 PM
So we get annihated by great qbs. So fire wade?

Well, Wade's been fired plenty, so I don't know that he's immune to any criticism either. But he hasn't been making the same mistakes here for almost 7 years, and he's not the one making the sorts of personnel decisions that are hurting this offense this year. He's not the one taking timeouts into the locker room, watching the clock tick down in critical situations, calling the same give-up plays on 3rd and long, and making weird personnel decisions on a week to week basis that leave you scratching your head.

So yeah, you can start a Fire Wade thread if you want. When he's shown the same failed tendencies for several years, I'll be on board, for sure.

ATXtexanfan
12-10-2012, 10:15 PM
I rest my case about Kubiak.

The guy is just not at the level of the elite or even real good coaches of the league. He can't compete against them. The Belichick's, Coughlin's, etc will eat his lunch any day of the week.

Man the truth always hurts

Wolf
12-10-2012, 10:17 PM
I just find this thread funny.

If before the season started we all would take a 11-2 record at this point and We would be ****ting egg rolls

Look I don't like getting blown out again on Monday night and it is embarrassing but the season isn't over yet

BullBlitz
12-10-2012, 10:18 PM
"Norv" Kubiak. Just good enough not to get fired.

eriadoc
12-10-2012, 10:19 PM
I just find this thread funny.

I do too. It started THREE YEARS AGO, and the same screw-ups have been laid out for the duration of the thread, Kubiak does all the same screw ups he did back then and yet we still have fans who think he's good. It's hilarious, in a really sad sort of way.

And yeah, 11-2 means the season isn't over ... yet. But if you're best argument is the record, then you're ignoring in victory what you wouldn't in defeat.

EllisUnit
12-10-2012, 10:20 PM
So we get annihated by great qbs. So fire wade?

If i remember correctly the D stopped Brady 4 straight times and we got 0 points out of it....

Wolf
12-10-2012, 10:22 PM
We are second in the league in point also what more? Like 29.points a game

Hookem Horns
12-10-2012, 10:22 PM
I just find this thread funny.

If before the season started we all would take a 11-2 record at this point and We would be ****ting egg rolls

Look I don't like getting blown out again on Monday night and it is embarrassing but the season isn't over yet

No, it's not, however I would bet the farm that the Texans will never win a Super Bowl under Kubiak.

Despite their great run this season Kubiak has still been doing the same things this season that makes me not like him as a HC. I won't rehash it again since eriadoc has just summed it up nicely.

Wolf
12-10-2012, 10:22 PM
If i remember correctly the D stopped Brady 4 straight times and we got 0 points out of it....
Yes. And we are sitting at 42 points now

Wolf
12-10-2012, 10:23 PM
No, it's not, however I would bet the farm that the Texans will never win a Super Bowl under Kubiak.

Despite their great run this season Kubiak has still been doing the same things this season that makes me not like him as a HC. I won't rehash it again since eriadoc has just summed it up nicely.


Maybe so .. What coach do you want then?

Mr. Texan
12-10-2012, 10:24 PM
Yes. And we are sitting at 42 points now

keep giving brady possessions and he will score.

defense wasn't outstanding but offense didn't keep brady off the field either with long drives and long fields.

steelbtexan
12-10-2012, 10:26 PM
Nothing will happen. We've won our "franchise best" 11th game this year. We're going to the playoffs this year. We may still get home field advantage this year. Bob is happy and lets face fact, why wouldn't he be? Because we got annihilated by two great offenses this year? Big deal, games still sold out. Team is winning and we'll get em in the playoffs. That's what Bob thinks I'm sure.

I only remember once seeing a football team that could be successful while looking so bad at the same time and that was the Glanville/Pardee era Oilers. Stacked with talent and always coming up short in the important games. Always coming up short in the games that you would give anything to see them win in.

It just sucks all the give-a-damn out of your heart when they do this kind of thing and they do it so often that you never grow to trust them. You never really believe in them the way that Cowboys and Steelers fans in the 70's or 49er's fans in the 80's (or Patriots fans now) believe in their team. You always know that they're going to screw it up somehow or go on national television and become the laughing stock of the league when they get a chance to establish that they're legitimate. It's stomach churning. It's heart breaking. It's the Houston Texans. Even when they're winning regularly they can still manage to find a way to make you slightly embarrassed of them.

These Texans appear to be another version of the Moon led Oilers. (Failing on the big stage.

Wolf
12-10-2012, 10:26 PM
keep giving brady possessions and he will score.

defense wasn't outstanding but offense didn't keep brady off the field either with long drives and long fields.
Nope they didnt and key 3rd down drops and Matt not being sharp

thunderkyss
12-10-2012, 10:31 PM
I think we dug ourselves in a hole early. The refs didn't help. We shouldn't blame the refs, & I'm not, only the way our team responded. They acted like a young team. & while the play calling left some to be desired, if Matt would learn about ball placement, made some better throws, or if anyone but Andre could catch a ball..... this game would have been different.

I'm not going to let this game get me down. We lost. It's just another L in the L column.

But I tell you what. We're not going to win the SuperBowl running the ball. Not with this OL. We need to spend the next three weeks getting Matt into rhythm.

RTP2110
12-10-2012, 10:38 PM
These Texans appear to be another version of the Moon led Oilers. (Failing on the big stage.

I compared the Texans to the Chargers of a few years ago in the Gameday thread. It looks like we're gonna be one of "those" teams. Teams with good talent, that put up great stats, go the playoffs for several years, and ultimately win absolutely nothing. Moon/Oilers, Tomlinson/Chargers, Reggie Miller/Pacers, even the Killer B's/Astros.

Rey
12-10-2012, 10:42 PM
I think we dug ourselves in a hole early. The refs didn't help. We shouldn't blame the refs, & I'm not, only the way our team responded. They acted like a young team. & while the play calling left some to be desired, if Matt would learn about ball placement, made some better throws, or if anyone but Andre could catch a ball..... this game would have been different.

I'm not going to let this game get me down. We lost. It's just another L in the L column.

But I tell you what. We're not going to win the SuperBowl running the ball. Not with this OL. We need to spend the next three weeks getting Matt into rhythm.

My head starts hurting when I think about this team. I'm going to give it a break these next three weeks. Hopefully we get a first round bye and I can make it a whole month of no texans football.

I'll be back for the play offs and maybe I'll be rejuvinated, but Despite our nice record i haven't been a fan of what weve done this year.

This game was the tipping point. I've seen all I've needed to see from this team. I don't care what they do against the colts or Vikings. Really...could t care less...it means nothing...they could lose or win all three....

The next big game for us is in the play offs. That's the next game that matters.

GP
12-10-2012, 10:46 PM
I remember one poster on here all last week who rubbed my nose in my idea that this was going to be a potentially BAD BAD game for us.

I think that guy is here now, trying to say everything that he could have said last week...but was too busy trying to be Super Fan and trying to clown me over everything under the moon he could think to do to me.

Yeah, I'm sure of it. He's here. Typical horsecrap.

GP
12-10-2012, 10:50 PM
"There is a significant difference between Tom Brady and ANYBODY ELSE I have seen this whole year."

- Steve Young, just now in the post-game show at Foxboro.

Echo'd my statements I made tonight. The guy is all-universe, especially in December AT HOME and especially when the stakes are high and it's against a really good team.

I wish people wouldn't be as hard on our team as they are. I was at that point after the GB game this year, and all the Texans did was just reel off countless wins in many fashions--Grinded out games, blew out the Ravens, OT wins back-to-back in under 5 days. Swept jags, Swept titans. And can sweep colts, too.

GNTLEWOLF
12-10-2012, 10:53 PM
C'mon guys!
Nobody on this board really ever believed all the hype about us having the best team in the NFL or being able to beat the Patriots did you?. And we know that if Kubiak didn't get fired after 6-10 there is no way he gets fired regardless of what happens this year. I can say this.....Texans lose first play-off game they have to actually play this year. We just don't have a super bowl caliber team. I've felt this in my gut all year.

EllisUnit
12-10-2012, 10:56 PM
C'mon guys!
Nobody on this board really ever believed all the hype about the us having the best team in the NFl or being able to beat the Patriots did you?. And we know that if Kubiak didn't get fired after 6-10 there is no waty he gets fired regardless of what happens this year. I can say this.....Texans lose first play-off game they have to actually play this year. We just don't have a super bowl caliber team. I've felt this in my gut all year.

See thats the difference. I know we have a superbowl team, the guys just have to be put in position to win, and tonight they were not.

thunderkyss
12-10-2012, 11:00 PM
I remember one poster on here all last week who rubbed my nose in my idea that this was going to be a potentially BAD BAD game for us.

I think that guy is here now, trying to say everything that he could have said last week...but was too busy trying to be Super Fan and trying to clown me over everything under the moon he could think to do to me.

Yeah, I'm sure of it. He's here. Typical horsecrap.

This is a good post GP. Nice, short, concise. I made it all the way to the bottom of it. Good job buddy.

Rey
12-10-2012, 11:01 PM
"There is a significant difference between Tom Brady and ANYBODY ELSE I have seen this whole year."

- Steve Young, just now in the post-game show at Foxboro.

Echo'd my statements I made tonight. The guy is all-universe, especially in December AT HOME and especially when the stakes are high and it's against a really good team.

I wish people wouldn't be as hard on our team as they are. I was at that point after the GB game this year, and all the Texans did was just reel off countless wins in many fashions--Grinded out games, blew out the Ravens, OT wins back-to-back in under 5 days. Swept jags, Swept titans. And can sweep colts, too.

Go back and loom at the game logs.

Opposing qb's have had good games against us.

It's just that guys lime Brady and rivers have been lights out.

Heck, even back to last year Brees took us to the woodshed.

Mark Sanchez looked competent against us. Stafford lit us up...Henne I'm relief duty...Tannehill in his first game ever wasn't as bad as watt made him look with those tips. Manning struck us up.

The teams we face in the play offs will be closer to the patriots than they are to the jags and titans...

When you are at the level the texans want us to believe they are at, those games against non play off teams mean a lot less...

We can get our stuff together, but that's nothing but a hope and a wish at this point

Chance_C
12-10-2012, 11:01 PM
This one is on Kubiak. May have not mattered but the bottom line is he absolutely did not put us in the best position to win. He called a piss poor game and the for the first time ever I'm calling him out about it. Yes stupid ass penalties( 3 illegal blocks on returns) bogus ass pass interference calls, etc.., but the most glaring weakness to me was the offensive play calling.

GP
12-10-2012, 11:02 PM
There's just always this "Oh yeah? We'll get you NEXT time!" mindset by a Kubiak-led team.

That works against lesser teams. You can be down to the Jags and claw your way back. You can be down to the Lions and make them crack under the weight of their own pressure, and win that game too. You cannot bring anything but your very best and expect to stand a chance against the Patriots.

Tonight, I felt the air was let out of our tires when KJ failed to secure that loose ball near the EZ. After that, it was a TD and you could sense that the Texans had given up (mentally) and were coasting from there. They went into the mode of "Yeah, we're still 11-2 and can win HFA in the next 3 games."

thunderkyss
12-10-2012, 11:03 PM
See thats the difference. I know we have a superbowl team, the guys just have to be put in position to win, and tonight they were not.

No doubt, both Gary & Wade deserve some criticism & blame.... but the 52+ guys who took the field deserve a little bit as well.

Marcus
12-10-2012, 11:18 PM
And of course . . . the playcalling . . .
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

thunderkyss
12-10-2012, 11:38 PM
And of course . . . the playcalling . . .
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Two things I didn't like about the playcalling.


When they man up on Andre... take advantage of it
Until they change what they are doing, we should be feeding Andre the ball.

Shouldn't there have been a point in that game where we aired it out?
Did we ever go to the hurry up offense? Matt was struggling, needed to find his rhythm.... why didn't we try to get him some rhythm?

midway
12-10-2012, 11:39 PM
If we don't destroy Indy next week I'm busting out the soap again. I thought keeping Kubiak on after 2 years ago was a bad decision, and extending him again was a bad decision.

Dutchrudder
12-10-2012, 11:40 PM
I blame the letter jackets.

Showtime100
12-10-2012, 11:46 PM
We be idiots to fire him now, but come February and yes, pending the outcome, Kubes' job needs to be re-evaluated.

He simply is not a coach in line with those that bring Championships. We've seen this time and time again. The only difference between this Kubes and the 6-10 Kubes is he has more to work with now, it doesn't mean he is a better coach.

I can drive a Prius, but I can look better and make a Maserati look a lot better even though I'm the same driver as I was with the Prius.

Marcus
12-10-2012, 11:46 PM
Two things I didn't like about the playcalling.


When they man up on Andre... take advantage of it
Until they change what they are doing, we should be feeding Andre the ball.

Shouldn't there have been a point in that game where we aired it out?
Did we ever go to the hurry up offense? Matt was struggling, needed to find his rhythm.... why didn't we try to get him some rhythm?


That all sounds so simple if you happen to forget what kind of pressure they were putting on him. And Schaub was being hurried a lot, he was making bad throws, and bad reads. I think it was more about playing the call right than calling the right play.

False Start
12-10-2012, 11:55 PM
I compared the Texans to the Chargers of a few years ago.

Wow, I thought the same thing this morning. :cool:

I knew as soon as the Pats went up 21-0, it was over.

Perki-Perk
12-11-2012, 12:08 AM
Where is Chris Crocker at with a "Leave Kubiak Alone!" Video???

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=leave+britney+alone&oq=leave+bri&gs_l=youtube.3.0.0l10.2593.3990.0.5284.9.7.0.2.2.0 .116.553.6j1.7.0...0.0...1ac.1._UJWfMTT5LE

Joe Texan
12-11-2012, 12:13 AM
Hey band waggoneers jump on off and stay off we do not need you around here

thunderkyss
12-11-2012, 12:17 AM
Wow, I thought the same thing this morning. :cool:

I knew as soon as the Pats went up 21-0, it was over.

I thought we had a chance till they scored in the third.

By that time, it was at least 3 (maybe 4) times our defense stopped the Pats without giving up any points & we still couldn't put together a scoring drive.

Perki-Perk
12-11-2012, 12:17 AM
Hey band waggoneers jump on off and stay off we do not need you around here

I'm with Joe... I was in a bar full of Texans fans and we went down by a touchdown and everyone got all weepy eyed. Makes me sick. Sick Sick Sick!

Showtime100
12-11-2012, 12:21 AM
I'm with Joe... I was in a bar full of Texans fans and we went down by a touchdown and everyone got all weepy eyed. Makes me sick. Sick Sick Sick!

Read the gamethread. People were dropping like flies in the 1st quarter.

midway
12-11-2012, 12:26 AM
Read the gamethread. People were dropping like flies in the 1st quarter.

And my stupid ass stayed around the whole time... (not here, but on another forum) :( I'm such a masochist.

utahmark
12-11-2012, 12:47 AM
It wouldn't be the first time a team with this many wins fired their coach after the season. Marty Schottenheimer was 14 and 2 when San Diego ran him out of town and hired Norv Turner...... That worked out well.

DX-TEX
12-11-2012, 01:00 AM
It wouldn't be the first time a team with this many wins fired their coach after the season. Marty Schottenheimer was 14 and 2 when San Diego ran him out of town and hired Norv Turner...... That worked out well.

Problem is Kubiak isnt going anywhere! Even when we lose the division to the Colts this year he STILL WONT BE FIRED!

utahmark
12-11-2012, 01:13 AM
Problem is Kubiak isnt going anywhere! Even when we lose the division to the Colts this year he STILL WONT BE FIRED!

Maybe I need a sarcasm smiley. San Diego threw whatever chance they had at a Superbowl away when they fired Marty. If letting go of Marty was not the final nail in the coffin then hiring Norv was. You can't fire your coach when your one of the top teams in the league. With 32 teams in the league simple odds tell you that your chances of getting worse are much greater than your chances of getting better.

rmartin65
12-11-2012, 06:44 AM
Maybe I need a sarcasm smiley. San Diego threw whatever chance they had at a Superbowl away when they fired Marty. If letting go of Marty was not the final nail in the coffin then hiring Norv was. You can't fire your coach when your one of the top teams in the league. With 32 teams in the league simple odds tell you that your chances of getting worse are much greater than your chances of getting better.

This.

Kubiak is an above-average coach. He can draw up plays with the best of them, his players love him, and he has taken us from 2-14 to 11-2. But he is terrible at deviating from his pre-determined gameplan, clock management, and all things defense (think of the DCs he hired before Wade was hired).

But until there is someone out there who is better than Kubiak, we should roll with Kubiak. There is no sense in making a change just for the hell of it.

gtexan02
12-11-2012, 06:51 AM
I'm with Joe... I was in a bar full of Texans fans and we went down by a touchdown and everyone got all weepy eyed. Makes me sick. Sick Sick Sick!

Scores don't always matter to my reaction. It's about how the team is playing. You could see early in the 1st quarter that we were going to be blown out. Destroyed. Boston Massacre Style.

The team came out looking flat. They committed stupid penalties early. So yeah, by the time the Pats scored their first TD I was nervous. When Schaub threw an INT in the end zone and the Pats marched back to score another TD, my fears were confirmed.

We were woefully unprepared last night

HJam72
12-11-2012, 06:55 AM
This.

Kubiak is an above-average coach. He can draw up plays with the best of them, his players love him, and he has taken us from 2-14 to 11-2. But he is terrible at deviating from his pre-determined gameplan, clock management, and all things defense (think of the DCs he hired before Wade was hired).

But until there is someone out there who is better than Kubiak, we should roll with Kubiak. There is no sense in making a change just for the hell of it.

But that's just it; WHY can't he learn to make in-game adjustments. It's not that freaking hard to see that when you are down 21-0 you gotta open things up and take a lot of risks. Otherwise, you might as well just head for the airport with 10 minutes left in the first half. Maybe the whole team can catch an earlier flight, LOL.

I defend Kubiak when he keeps running the ball with a lead and trying to burn clock instead of taking risks to score points. I will NOT defend him when we are down by 3 or more scores and he lines up AJ at fullback (little sarcasm, although I'd like to hear the explanation for that) and runs right at Wilfork. If you're going to give up with half or more of the game left, then trot out the 3rd stringers and let the starters go to the local bar or something.

thunderkyss
12-11-2012, 07:15 AM
But that's just it; WHY can't he learn to make in-game adjustments. It's not that freaking hard to see that when you are down 21-0 you gotta open things up and take a lot of risks. Otherwise, you might as well just head for the airport with 10 minutes left in the first half. Maybe the whole team can catch an earlier flight, LOL.

I defend Kubiak when he keeps running the ball with a lead and trying to burn clock instead of taking risks to score points. I will NOT defend him when we are down by 3 or more scores and he lines up AJ at fullback (little sarcasm, although I'd like to hear the explanation for that) and runs right at Wilfork. If you're going to give up with half or more of the game left, then trot out the 3rd stringers and let the starters go to the local bar or something.

There are many different trains of thought here. I thought it was the right thing to run the ball down 21 points early in the second qtr. I thought going in that we would have to slow the game down to beat the Patriots.

However, when we couldn't extend drives after the defense held the score, that's when I got worried.

When they kept loading the box & we were getting stopped for losses, I kept thinking, surely we have a contention plan for that. Man coverage on AJ, surely we have a contention plan for that. But we obviously didn't.

I was also disappointed we didn't take the points when we had a chance. I think it would have been a 51 yarder. I know we get on Kubiak for not taking a chance & going for it on 4th down when we've got momentum, but we were on the road, we were down 21 points, I think the smart thing there would have been to take the points. Of course with our kicker, a 51 yard field goal is hardly a given.

But I don't have a problem with the idea of sticking with the run game that early in the game. I wish we'd have been a little more imaginitive than run on first & second, throw on third. There was a 3rd & 3 (I think) that we lined up in shot-gun with no back..... duh?

:barman: but I don't do this for a living.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 10:09 AM
You can't fire your coach when your one of the top teams in the league.

As a counterpoint, it should be noted that Tony Dungy got his team to the playoffs, 4 or 5 times in a row and was fired with a winning record after a playoff loss. The next year, that team won the Super Bowl with a new coach.

CretorFrigg
12-11-2012, 10:12 AM
Hey band waggoneers jump on off and stay off we do not need you around here

How can you call us bandwagon fans when most of us have been fans before the 2-14 season? Being critical of your team does not equate to being a bandwagon fan.

HoustonFrog
12-11-2012, 10:13 AM
As a counterpoint, it should be noted that Tony Dungy got his team to the playoffs, 4 or 5 times in a row and was fired with a winning record after a playoff loss. The next year, that team won the Super Bowl with a new coach.

Think this might be revisionist. He won a SB. Coached a couple more years and then retired and the reins went to Caldwell.

But, I think Kubes should be fired!Just fun to say:stirpot:

HJam72
12-11-2012, 10:15 AM
Maybe our team would learn more if we hire a new head coach every year. :turtle:

I'll do it next year, and I'm not coming on here to hear all you guys gripin'.

thunderkyss
12-11-2012, 10:36 AM
Think this might be revisionist. He won a SB. Coached a couple more years and then retired and the reins went to Caldwell.

But, I think Kubes should be fired!Just fun to say:stirpot:

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Tampa Bay.

HoustonFrog
12-11-2012, 10:38 AM
I'm pretty sure he was talking about Tampa Bay.

Right. Me so dumb this morning!:vincepalm:

Exascor
12-11-2012, 11:09 AM
I'm a Kubiak supporter. Last night he had some terrible calls and the team overall seemed underprepared mentally. Just like the Packers game, the Texans fell behind by making mistakes early and could never recover. That is a combination of coaches and players. Neither coordinator adjusted well. Most players played poorly. Overall a terrible showing made worse since it was on national TV.

The 2 losses this season were the result of complete meltdown. Offense, defense, special teams, coaches & players. Kubiak's offense failed. Phillips' defense failed.

The overall picture is the only thing that counts though. Injuries have killed the defense. The salary cap killed the o-line in the offseason. This team is playing well overall though. The '12 Kubiak led Texans are 11-2. Win the next game and they win the AFCS. Win the next 2 and they get a BYE. Win the next 3 and they get HFA.

A head coaching change (after the season) would be opening the door for the other teams in the division. If Kubiak goes - Schaub goes. Does anyone run the "Kubiak" offense successfully other than Kubiak? How's the Redskins version worked out? Schaub is a "master" of this offense. He's not going to be a great QB and surely not in a new offense. Foster is less effective in a new offense. AJ is getting older. We have 1 olineman that would start for a conventional offense. Looks like a rebuild job to me. I'd rather not go through that again.

There are some scenarios that would make me feel a change at HC is needed. It would take a serious collapse that I hope none of us want to see.

Here's hoping that the anti-Kubiaks are wrong and we win a Superbowl this season. We need some feel-good vibes to wash away the crap that seems to repeat after every loss now.

thunderkyss
12-11-2012, 11:33 AM
If Kubiak goes - Schaub goes. Does anyone run the "Kubiak" offense successfully other than Kubiak? How's the Redskins version worked out?

They beat the Giants.

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 11:44 AM
Maybe I need a sarcasm smiley. San Diego threw whatever chance they had at a Superbowl away when they fired Marty. If letting go of Marty was not the final nail in the coffin then hiring Norv was. You can't fire your coach when your one of the top teams in the league. With 32 teams in the league simple odds tell you that your chances of getting worse are much greater than your chances of getting better.

This, again.

People. You are 11-2. You have 85 pages of fire Kubiak? Other than when Tampa fired Dungy and hired Chucky, when has a good team fired a coach and got better? Dungy would have won the following year, anyway, Tampa was impatient.

You guys are so close. Stay the course. Judge it at the end of the season. Maybe *MAYBE* you can bring in a D coordinator or secondary coach.

Look...our team was horrific on defense earlier in the year; couldn't stop a good high school team. Teams grow. You guys are right there. Relax.

DX-TEX
12-11-2012, 11:47 AM
This, again.

People. You are 11-2. You have 85 pages of fire Kubiak? Other than when Tampa fired Dungy and hired Chucky, when has a good team fired a coach and got better? Dungy would have won the following year, anyway, Tampa was impatient.

You guys are so close. Stay the course. Judge it at the end of the season. Maybe *MAYBE* you can bring in a D coordinator or secondary coach.

Look...our team was horrific on defense earlier in the year; couldn't stop a good high school team. Teams grow. You guys are right there. Relax.

The original OP was in 2009.

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 11:49 AM
The original OP was in 2009.

:kitten: you guys have kept it going that long.

DX-TEX
12-11-2012, 11:51 AM
:kitten: you guys have kept it going that long.

We're a funny, fickle bunch.

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 11:53 AM
We're a funny, fickle bunch.

you guys are like jaded red sox fans, pre '04. :pissed:

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 11:53 AM
:kitten: you guys have kept it going that long.

Kubiak keeps making the same stupid mistakes for that long. Actually, from the beginning, but it took until 2009 for people to start to figure out that his stripes weren't going to change.

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 11:56 AM
Kubiak keeps making the same stupid mistakes for that long. Actually, from the beginning, but it took until 2009 for people to start to figure out that his stripes weren't going to change.

I'm not passing judgement, so don't take it wrong... but you're saying that you guys are 11-2 in spite of Kubiak?

fiasco west
12-11-2012, 12:01 PM
I'm not passing judgement, so don't take it wrong... but you're saying that you guys are 11-2 in spite of Kubiak?

This thread always comes back whenever there is a loss or the team doesn't win strongly.

I am all for keeping Kubiak. In my mind the only way he loses his job is if the Texans get smacked around in the playoffs.

When people talk about replacing Kubiak they need to have someone that is without a doubt better.

ObsiWan
12-11-2012, 12:06 PM
Two things I didn't like about the playcalling.


When they man up on Andre... take advantage of it
Until they change what they are doing, we should be feeding Andre the ball.

Shouldn't there have been a point in that game where we aired it out?
Did we ever go to the hurry up offense? Matt was struggling, needed to find his rhythm.... why didn't we try to get him some rhythm?


How you gonna "air it out" or "get Matt some rhythm" when Vince Wolfolk was in the backfield a half second after the snap?? He's yet another version of Haynesworth or Kris Jenkins. Our O-line was simply out matched. Ben Jones was just abused all night.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 12:09 PM
I'm not passing judgement, so don't take it wrong... but you're saying that you guys are 11-2 in spite of Kubiak?

Tell you what. I'll just give you an example that happens over and over and over here in Houston. Kubiak has done this since the beginning and shows absolutely no signs of changing. This is from last night's play-by-play:

Houston Texans at 03:26
1-10-HOU 34 (3:26) 8-M.Schaub pass short middle to 23-A.Foster to NE 43 for 23 yards (32-D.McCourty).
1-10-NE 43 (2:42) 8-M.Schaub pass incomplete short right to 23-A.Foster.
Timeout #2 by NE at 02:38.
2-10-NE 43 (2:38) 23-A.Foster right tackle to NE 43 for no gain (51-J.Mayo).
Two-Minute Warning
3-10-NE 43 (2:00) (Shotgun) PENALTY on NE-99-T.Scott, Neutral Zone Infraction, 5 yards, enforced at NE 43 - No Play.
3-5-NE 38 (2:00) (Shotgun) 8-M.Schaub pass incomplete deep middle to 80-A.Johnson (31-A.Talib). NE-31-A.Talib was injured during the play.
Timeout #3 by NE at 01:55. injury in last 2 minutes
4-5-NE 38 (1:55) (Shotgun) 8-M.Schaub pass incomplete short left to 83-K.Walter [51-J.Mayo].

New England Patriots at 01:52
1-10-NE 38 (1:52) 34-S.Vereen left tackle to NE 39 for 1 yard (98-C.Barwin; 51-D.Sharpton).
2-9-NE 39 (1:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 85-B.Lloyd to NE 45 for 6 yards (24-J.Joseph).
3-3-NE 45 (:55) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-A.Hernandez (29-G.Quin).
4-3-NE 45 (:50) 14-Z.Mesko punts 55 yards to end zone, Center-48-D.Aiken, Touchback.

Houston Texans at 00:41
1-10-HOU 20 (:41) (Shotgun) 8-M.Schaub pass short left to 81-O.Daniels to HOU 31 for 11 yards (51-J.Mayo).
1-10-HOU 31 (:21) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 8-M.Schaub pass incomplete short middle to 80-A.Johnson (37-A.Dennard).
2-10-HOU 31 (:16) (Shotgun) 8-M.Schaub pass incomplete deep right to 18-L.Jean [54-D.Hightower].
3-10-HOU 31 (:10) 23-A.Foster left guard to HOU 40 for 9 yards (23-M.Cole; 27-T.Wilson).
END QUARTER 2

Look at the time stamps. The Texans had the ball with 3:26 left and just drained the clock as if they were ahead. The Patriots called timeouts. They wanted the ball back. When the Pats had the ball, the Texans called no timeouts. When the Texans had the ball at the end of the half, they wasted what clock was left. Kubiak took two timeouts into the locker room with him. He basically curled up in a ball and begged to get to halftime. He plays scared in a game that you can't play with fear of failure.

It's a running joke around here that if the team is facing 3rd and long inside it's own 35, it's going to be a draw play to the right. And with about a 90% accuracy, we're right. It always is. Kubiak just gives up on the series and punts. No one's asking for 4 streaks there, but maybe mix in a screen, a bubble screen, hell ... even a toss play. Oooh, maybe even a draw to the left! LOL. I'm not busting your chops here, but you're just not familiar with the clock management issues, the tendency to quit in certain situations, the inability to adjust to the other team's game plan, and the questionable play calls in certain situations. Kubiak has a lot of strengths. He is a damn good play designer. When he gets this team's offense going in a rhythm, it's an awesome sight to behold. Generally, he drafts offensive guys pretty well. But when it comes to grading him as a HEAD coach, he's just not good. He can't do defense - AT ALL. He hired bad defensive coaches and stuck with them until his job was on the line. He drafted bad defensive players. He sucks at all the aforementioned things that a HEAD coach has to do.

He's just an offensive coordinator trying to play head coach, and he's not very good at it.

DX-TEX
12-11-2012, 12:09 PM
This thread always comes back whenever there is a loss or the team doesn't win strongly.

I am all for keeping Kubiak. In my mind the only way he loses his job is if the Texans get smacked around in the playoffs.

When people talk about replacing Kubiak they need to have someone that is without a doubt better.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/MechDX/bossmcnair.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/MechDX/cowher.jpg

thunderkyss
12-11-2012, 12:14 PM
How you gonna "air it out" or "get Matt some rhythm" when Vince Wolfolk was in the backfield a half second after the snap?? He's yet another version of Haynesworth or Kris Jenkins. Our O-line was simply out matched. Ben Jones was just abused all night.

Move him. Move the pocket, make Wilfork move side to side. I'd have liked to see a bootleg at least once. While our run game wasn't all that, they were keyed in on it.

They had a 7th round pick on Andre 1 on 1, I'm sure he could have got open.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 12:14 PM
Against the Packers, he did the same sort of thing. He basically quit on the half. He didn't want any part of trying to compete and get better. When questioned about my take on it, this was my response:

Well, for starters you call that timeout immediately and prepare for the punt. You get the special teams coach that you employ to get his players to freakin' block someone and try for a decent return. Then you come up with a couple plays that are a balance of risk vs. reward that may result in something. That means no Hail Marys and no 3rd and long draw plays, in case that needed to be clarified. If they don't result in anything, you gave it an honest attempt. If they do, maybe you get a FG or even a TD.

What you don't do is kneel down on the sideline and pray to God that the half ends right then and there for the whole world to see.

bckey
12-11-2012, 12:14 PM
Tell you what. I'll just give you an example that happens over and over and over here in Houston. Kubiak has done this since the beginning and shows absolutely no signs of changing. This is from last night's play-by-play:



Look at the time stamps. The Texans had the ball with 3:26 left and just drained the clock as if they were ahead. The Patriots called timeouts. They wanted the ball back. When the Pats had the ball, the Texans called no timeouts. When the Texans had the ball at the end of the half, they wasted what clock was left. Kubiak took two timeouts into the locker room with him. He basically curled up in a ball and begged to get to halftime. He plays scared in a game that you can't play with fear of failure.

It's a running joke around here that if the team is facing 3rd and long inside it's own 35, it's going to be a draw play to the right. And with about a 90% accuracy, we're right. It always is. Kubiak just gives up on the series and punts. No one's asking for 4 streaks there, but maybe mix in a screen, a bubble screen, hell ... even a toss play. Oooh, maybe even a draw to the left! LOL. I'm not busting your chops here, but you're just not familiar with the clock management issues, the tendency to quit in certain situations, the inability to adjust to the other team's game plan, and the questionable play calls in certain situations. Kubiak has a lot of strengths. He is a damn good play designer. When he gets this team's offense going in a rhythm, it's an awesome sight to behold. Generally, he drafts offensive guys pretty well. But when it comes to grading him as a HEAD coach, he's just not good. He can't do defense - AT ALL. He hired bad defensive coaches and stuck with them until his job was on the line. He drafted bad defensive players. He sucks at all the aforementioned things that a HEAD coach has to do.

He's just an offensive coordinator trying to play head coach, and he's not very good at it.

Eriadoc hit the nail on the head here. Good post!

76Texan
12-11-2012, 12:17 PM
you guys are like jaded red sox fans, pre '04. :pissed:

Well yeah... The owner of this MB is in the Anti-Kubiak camp.

He had a couple of posts in a little earlier :)

ObsiWan
12-11-2012, 12:17 PM
I'm not passing judgement, so don't take it wrong... but you're saying that you guys are 11-2 in spite of Kubiak?

That's EXACTLY how some folks think around here. Boggles my mind. None of the players - with the possible exception of Schaub - have come up with a single game plan.

Oh and did I mention that the new "conventional wisdom" among the Fire Kubiak crowd is that we're winning because of Wade's defense not because of Kubiak. ...yeah, that same defense that has allowed an average of 30 pts per during the last four games. All while having, arguably, the best D-lineman and the best CB in the AFC if not the league!

Boggles my mind.

Yeah, they think it's all Kubiak.

Last I looked, neither Kubiak nor Wade has played a single down this season.
But let's excuse the players.
It's Kubiak.

fiasco west
12-11-2012, 12:18 PM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/MechDX/bossmcnair.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/MechDX/cowher.jpg

Meh, Cowher is a great coach but I'm not sure how he fixes our problems.

I know, he screams on the sidelines and gets all angry on TV just like Gruden so people automatically assume that he's teaching toughness.

Any ways, I don't see how we could make a case for firing him now. The Texans should be judged by what they do in the playoffs, not the regular season.

Exascor
12-11-2012, 12:24 PM
They beat the Giants.This year? They don't run the Kubiak offense this year.

buddyboy
12-11-2012, 12:24 PM
Tell you what. I'll just give you an example that happens over and over and over here in Houston. Kubiak has done this since the beginning and shows absolutely no signs of changing. This is from last night's play-by-play:



Look at the time stamps. The Texans had the ball with 3:26 left and just drained the clock as if they were ahead. The Patriots called timeouts. They wanted the ball back. When the Pats had the ball, the Texans called no timeouts. When the Texans had the ball at the end of the half, they wasted what clock was left. Kubiak took two timeouts into the locker room with him. He basically curled up in a ball and begged to get to halftime. He plays scared in a game that you can't play with fear of failure.

It's a running joke around here that if the team is facing 3rd and long inside it's own 35, it's going to be a draw play to the right. And with about a 90% accuracy, we're right. It always is. Kubiak just gives up on the series and punts. No one's asking for 4 streaks there, but maybe mix in a screen, a bubble screen, hell ... even a toss play. Oooh, maybe even a draw to the left! LOL. I'm not busting your chops here, but you're just not familiar with the clock management issues, the tendency to quit in certain situations, the inability to adjust to the other team's game plan, and the questionable play calls in certain situations. Kubiak has a lot of strengths. He is a damn good play designer. When he gets this team's offense going in a rhythm, it's an awesome sight to behold. Generally, he drafts offensive guys pretty well. But when it comes to grading him as a HEAD coach, he's just not good. He can't do defense - AT ALL. He hired bad defensive coaches and stuck with them until his job was on the line. He drafted bad defensive players. He sucks at all the aforementioned things that a HEAD coach has to do.

He's just an offensive coordinator trying to play head coach, and he's not very good at it.

You didn't answer the question; are we 11-2 in spite of Kubiak?

76Texan
12-11-2012, 12:35 PM
Tell you what. I'll just give you an example that happens over and over and over here in Houston. Kubiak has done this since the beginning and shows absolutely no signs of changing. This is from last night's play-by-play:

Look at the time stamps. The Texans had the ball with 3:26 left and just drained the clock as if they were ahead. The Patriots called timeouts. They wanted the ball back. When the Pats had the ball, the Texans called no timeouts. When the Texans had the ball at the end of the half, they wasted what clock was left. Kubiak took two timeouts into the locker room with him. He basically curled up in a ball and begged to get to halftime. He plays scared in a game that you can't play with fear of failure.

He's just an offensive coordinator trying to play head coach, and he's not very good at it.
The Pats called the first time-out because they didn't like the personnel they had on the field. The Texans were ready to snap the ball; they actually did snap the ball, but NE barely got the TO call in.

The previous play was an incomplete pass, there was no need for the Texans to call time-out.

The second TO is mandatory due to injury of their CB; they had to use the TO within 2 mins to tend to an injured player.
Again, the previous play was an incomplete pass, there's no need for the Texans to call time-out.

thunderkyss
12-11-2012, 12:35 PM
You didn't answer the question; are we 11-2 in spite of Kubiak?

I think what they are saying is that Kubiak's 11-2 team won't win the Super Bowl. It's not inspite of Kubiak, but who did we really beat?

They are saying the AFC is weak, The Broncos weren't the Broncos we see out there today & we just showed everyone the Ravens are bigger pretenders than we are.

I don't subscribe to this line of thinking, but the evidence before us is hard to deny.

We're going to have to be a much better team to win our first play-off game this year.

The Patriots, Broncos, & really even the Bengals are better now than they were at the beginning of the year. We are not. That's the way I see it. There are good reasons why we are not. But nobody cares & they shouldn't. Kubiak's job is to get them better before the play-offs start.

& winning games isn't going to be enough. Winning games that count is all that matters. The targets been moved again, but that's the way it goes.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 12:37 PM
When the Pats got the ball back; they were either in the sugar huddle or no huddle.

They had enough time to try to go downfield for a FG.
You don't want to call a time-out to help them.

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 12:50 PM
When the Pats got the ball back; they were either in the sugar huddle or no huddle.

They had enough time to try to go downfield for a FG.
You don't want to call a time-out to help them.

I agree with this. There was no need to call time out on D and help NE. Also, you wouldn't burn a TO on an incomplete pass.

Seems to me there's a high level of frustration with your team. You can micro-manage it to death. When the Pats went up 21-0, your game plan pretty much got flushed down the toilet. IMO, you have to have an elite (HOF-type) QB to lead a team back from three scores down on the road. Manning, Brady, Rogers, Brees are at the top of that very short list. They might be the only ones.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 12:51 PM
You didn't answer the question; are we 11-2 in spite of Kubiak?

That's because there's no correct answer to the question. In many ways, the team is 11-2 because of Kubiak. He has great play design, he generally puts players in positions to succeed on offense, and he has drafted reasonably well on offense. On other other hand, the team loses big games and plays down to its competition in many ways because of Kubiak. How many times have you seen our defense get a team into 3rd and long and they run a draw play? I'm constantly pointing out how the other team doesn't do it. They pass the ball. They try to convert. The defense got Brady into some 3rd and long situations last night and he came out slinging. Our offense lies down. Kubiak wastes clock where he could be calling plays. Kubiak goes to run the clock out too soon when he has a lead and that's resulted in some close calls this year. He lacks the killer instinct.

So in some ways, they're 11-2 in spite of Kubiak. In some ways, they're 11-2 because of Kubiak. The problem is, his deficiencies are much, much harder to overcome against the types of teams that they'll face in the playoffs. When the team is playing the Titans or Jags, it's a little easier for the defense to shoulder the burden of Kubiak letting off the gas or not playing aggressively enough. When they play the Pats, nto so much.

Do you think the Chargers were a playoff team those years despite Norv Turner? Do you think the Browns, Chiefs, and Chargers were a playoff team all those years despite Marty Schottenheimer? Do you think the Tampa Bay Bucs were a playoff team for those four or five years prior to Chucky despite Tony Dungy? It's not that black and white, but it can be pretty evident when a guy has shortcomings that are going to prevent the team from succeeding at the highest level. Kubiak's shortcomings are the same now as they were in 2009, or even in 2006. He's not changing. He is who he is.

ObsiWan
12-11-2012, 12:52 PM
I think what they are saying is that Kubiak's 11-2 team won't win the Super Bowl. It's not inspite of Kubiak, but who did we really beat?

They are saying the AFC is weak, The Broncos weren't the Broncos we see out there today & we just showed everyone the Ravens are bigger pretenders than we are.

I don't subscribe to this line of thinking, but the evidence before us is hard to deny.

We're going to have to be a much better team to win our first play-off game this year.

The Patriots, Broncos, & really even the Bengals are better now than they were at the beginning of the year. We are not. That's the way I see it. There are good reasons why we are not. But nobody cares & they shouldn't. Kubiak's job is to get them better before the play-offs start.

& winning games isn't going to be enough. Winning games that count is all that matters. The targets been moved again, but that's the way it goes.

And it will continue to be moved by some.
Reason: They wanted Cowher here but Uncle Bob stuck it out with Gary Kubiak. Some part of them, no matter what this team manages to achieve with Kubiak as coach, will always be pissed about that.
ALWAYS.

Edit:
To be fair, I, too, will continue to "move the goalposts" as the team evolves. What made ME happy last year - getting to the playoffs - won't be enough this year. This year I expect an AFC championship appearance, minimum. Next year, I expect a Super Bowl appearance, minimum. The year after that - and every year that follows - I will expect SB wins.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 12:53 PM
It's a running joke around here that if the team is facing 3rd and long inside it's own 35, it's going to be a draw play to the right. And with about a 90% accuracy, we're right. It always is. Kubiak just gives up on the series and punts. No one's asking for 4 streaks there, but maybe mix in a screen, a bubble screen, hell ... even a toss play. Oooh, maybe even a draw to the left! LOL. I'm not busting your chops here, but you're just not familiar with the clock management issues, the tendency to quit in certain situations, the inability to adjust to the other team's game plan, and the questionable play calls in certain situations. Kubiak has a lot of strengths. He is a damn good play designer. When he gets this team's offense going in a rhythm, it's an awesome sight to behold. Generally, he drafts offensive guys pretty well. But when it comes to grading him as a HEAD coach, he's just not good. He can't do defense - AT ALL. He hired bad defensive coaches and stuck with them until his job was on the line. He drafted bad defensive players. He sucks at all the aforementioned things that a HEAD coach has to do.

He's just an offensive coordinator trying to play head coach, and he's not very good at it.
Since 2007 (I used this as to refer to the time that Schaub first arrived in Houston), on 3rd or 4th and longer than 15, the league average in converting these long situations is 11.1%

The Texans converted at a clip of 10.4% with the pass (48 attempts,) and 14.3% with the run (28 attempts.)

They were sacked 3 times while trying to convert with the pass, resulting in further loss of yardage.

Which would rather go with?

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 12:55 PM
And it will continue to be moved by some.
Reason: They wanted Cowher here but Uncle Bob stuck it out with Gary Kubiak. Some part of them, no matter what this team manages to achieve with Kubiak as coach, will always be pissed about that.
ALWAYS.

It will continue to be moved, but your reasoning is dead wrong. The reason is actually much simpler - we want a Super Bowl. When you're a 2-14 team, the target is to improve. When you're an 8-8 team, the target becomes having a winning record and maybe making the payoffs. When you've made the playoffs, the target becomes winning a Super Bowl. If you seriously think your team is a Super Bowl contender, then you expect to see certain indicators to that effect. Winning games against elite competition is one such indicator. Losing those games tends to indicate that your team will lose big games in the playoffs. Hence the frustration.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 12:58 PM
I agree with this. There was no need to call time out on D and help NE. Also, you wouldn't burn a TO on an incomplete pass.

Seems to me there's a high level of frustration with your team. You can micro-manage it to death. When the Pats went up 21-0, your game plan pretty much got flushed down the toilet. IMO, you have to have an elite (HOF-type) QB to lead a team back from three scores down on the road. Manning, Brady, Rogers, Brees are at the top of that very short list. They might be the only ones.

There are always some who doesn't like a HC that has not won anything of significance, I understand that.

But sometimes, people bring up some funny reasons! :)

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 01:00 PM
Since 2007 (I used this as to refer to the time that Schaub first arrived in Houston), on 3rd or 4th and longer than 15, the league average in converting these long situations is 11.1%

The Texans converted at a clip of 10.4% with the pass (48 attempts, and 14.3% with the run (28 attempts.)

Which would rather go with?

You're either not reading my posts or not getting it. I don't have heartburn with 3rd and long running, or passing. Do whichever they want. Just mix it up. Don't do the same 3rd and long draw to the right that they almost always do. Mix in a screen, bubble screen, toss play, draw to the LEFT (Woohoo!), outlet pass over the middle to the back, slant-go route, double move ... there are plays that you can run that are sufficiently conservative that have a chance to succeed and that mix up your look on film for scouting purposes. Doing the same thing every time is effectively quitting not only on that play, but in future games when teams play your tendencies.

Also, 3rd and 15 has its own set of stats, but the Texans do it on 3rd and 9 inside their own 35. So while I appreciate your point, it's not 100% applicable.

Double Barrel
12-11-2012, 01:02 PM
Yeah, they think it's all Kubiak.

Last I looked, neither Kubiak nor Wade has played a single down this season.
But let's excuse the players.
It's Kubiak.

Just one quick question: Who picked the players? :thinking:

You didn't answer the question; are we 11-2 in spite of Kubiak?

If you are satisfied with a great regular season team, then this is a good question.

Some of us want more than just a great regular season team. Some of us recognize that the regular season is merely a means to an end.

Great teams are forged in the playoffs against other great teams. So far, our team does not look like they are quite ready to compete at that level.

I love me some 11-2 like anyone, but the difference is that I'm not celebrating the record. Their record will be 0-0 come January, and all that regular season stuff was just jockeying for position.

thunderkyss
12-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Edit:
To be fair, I, too, will continue to "move the goalposts" as the team evolves. What made ME happy last year - getting to the playoffs - won't be enough this year. This year I expect an AFC championship appearance, minimum. Next year, I expect a Super Bowl appearance, minimum. The year after that - and every year that follows - I will expect SB wins.

I understand moving the goal, but not see a Super Bowl until next year?

Last year we were saying we would have been in the Super Bowl had Matt been healthy. We also said he was the one injury that really took us out of the Super Bowl.

NO, I won't be happy unless we win the Super Bowl. Had we not got spanked by the Packers/Patriots, I'd have been happy with just getting there & playing well.

But now.... no. We need to win the Super Bowl. We've got issues, no doubt. But I guarantee you whoever wins the Super Bowl will have issues of their own.

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 01:05 PM
There are always some who doesn't like a HC that has not won anything of significance, I understand that.

But sometimes, people bring up some funny reasons! :)

and.... to continue.... the offense didn't go down 21 or 28-zip. I would say if you have a b!tch, it's in the secondary. Brady picked 'm apart, and there were some dudes wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide open last night. Lloyd and Stallworth should never be that open 35 yards deep. Whether that's a scheme, personnel, or both, I can't say, I don't watch enough of your games.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 01:06 PM
You're either not reading my posts or not getting it. I don't have heartburn with 3rd and long running, or passing. Do whichever they want. Just mix it up. Don't do the same 3rd and long draw to the right that they almost always do. Mix in a screen, bubble screen, toss play, draw to the LEFT (Woohoo!), outlet pass over the middle to the back, slant-go route, double move ... there are plays that you can run that are sufficiently conservative that have a chance to succeed and that mix up your look on film for scouting purposes. Doing the same thing every time is effectively quitting not only on that play, but in future games when teams play your tendencies.

Also, 3rd and 15 has its own set of stats, but the Texans do it on 3rd and 9 inside their own 35. So while I appreciate your point, it's not 100% applicable.The record (like I had said a few times before, you can use Play Finder at ProFootball Reference) shows that we used the pass 48 times and the run 28 times.

The draw play brings the best result, why not use it?

Exascor
12-11-2012, 01:07 PM
It will continue to be moved, but your reasoning is dead wrong. The reason is actually much simpler - we want a Super Bowl. When you're a 2-14 team, the target is to improve. When you're an 8-8 team, the target becomes having a winning record and maybe making the payoffs. When you've made the playoffs, the target becomes winning a Super Bowl. If you seriously think your team is a Super Bowl contender, then you expect to see certain indicators to that effect. Winning games against elite competition is one such indicator. Losing those games tends to indicate that your team will lose big games in the playoffs. Hence the frustration.I'm with you. I want to win the Superbowl. This year. Every year. It's a tough goal to have though. REALLY tough.

You know what Kubiak and Belichick have in common? Neither has won a Superbowl since Kubiak became a head coach. Oh yeah - Belichick has Brady too.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 01:09 PM
and.... to continue.... the offense didn't go down 21 or 28-zip. I would say if you have a b!tch, it's in the secondary. Brady picked 'm apart, and there were some dudes wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide open last night. Lloyd and Stallworth should never be that open 35 yards deep. Whether that's a scheme, personnel, or both, I can't say, I don't watch enough of your games.

Both safeties bit the play action pass on one.

Bradie James (whom I said is the most suspected LB in coverage) just got back from an injury and allowed Hernandez one.

He's the one who makes the D call, and he allows Hernandez to be all by himself on another.

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 01:14 PM
Both safeties but the play action pass on one.

Bradie James (whom I said is the most suspected LB in coverage) just got back from an injury and allowed Hernandez one.

He's the one who makes the D call, and he allows Hernandez to be all by himself on another.

That's a problem that Brady's gonna identify every time...LB's on Hernandez are generally a mismatch. If there's one that's suspect to begin with...he should be shadowing RB's, and put someone else out on Hernandez. That's a DC issue IMO.

Scooter
12-11-2012, 01:16 PM
I think what they are saying is that Kubiak's 11-2 team won't win the Super Bowl. It's not inspite of Kubiak, but who did we really beat?

we beat the afc west winner, the afc north winner, beat the bengals twice last year, the steelers last year, the jets, and are about to put 2 beatdowns on the colts. so, outside of the patriots we've beaten all of the playoff teams. kinda paints a picture doesnt it.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 01:16 PM
You're either not reading my posts or not getting it. I don't have heartburn with 3rd and long running, or passing. Do whichever they want. Just mix it up. Don't do the same 3rd and long draw to the right that they almost always do. Mix in a screen, bubble screen, toss play, draw to the LEFT (Woohoo!), outlet pass over the middle to the back, slant-go route, double move ... there are plays that you can run that are sufficiently conservative that have a chance to succeed and that mix up your look on film for scouting purposes. Doing the same thing every time is effectively quitting not only on that play, but in future games when teams play your tendencies.

Also, 3rd and 15 has its own set of stats, but the Texans do it on 3rd and 9 inside their own 35. So while I appreciate your point, it's not 100% applicable.

When using the 9 yard parameter, the Texans had 295 attempts to convert with the pass at a 22.7% clip.

They tried it with the run only 88 times, at a 11.4% conversion rate.

Clearly, between 9 and 14 yards, the Texans went with the pass a whole lot more (247 times as opposed to 60 times with the run).

They had better results with the pass and that was why they went more with the pass to convert 9-14 situations.

Any way you look at it, Kubiak gets the best results out of different situations.

wolf123
12-11-2012, 01:17 PM
This thread will be around forever...:gamer:

76Texan
12-11-2012, 01:18 PM
That's a problem that Brady's gonna identify every time...LB's on Hernandez are generally a mismatch. If there's one that's suspect to begin with...he should be shadowing RB's, and put someone else out on Hernandez. That's a DC issue IMO.

Right, and the DC is Wade Phillips who still has a winning record against BB's teams.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 01:19 PM
This thread will be around forever...:gamer:

Until we win the SB, at least.

Or maybe if we win it by one point, it will be brought back again, LOL!

buddyboy
12-11-2012, 01:21 PM
It will continue to be moved, but your reasoning is dead wrong. The reason is actually much simpler - we want a Super Bowl. When you're a 2-14 team, the target is to improve. When you're an 8-8 team, the target becomes having a winning record and maybe making the payoffs. When you've made the playoffs, the target becomes winning a Super Bowl. If you seriously think your team is a Super Bowl contender, then you expect to see certain indicators to that effect. Winning games against elite competition is one such indicator. Losing those games tends to indicate that your team will lose big games in the playoffs. Hence the frustration.


If you are satisfied with a great regular season team, then this is a good question.

Some of us want more than just a great regular season team. Some of us recognize that the regular season is merely a means to an end.

Great teams are forged in the playoffs against other great teams. So far, our team does not look like they are quite ready to compete at that level.

I love me some 11-2 like anyone, but the difference is that I'm not celebrating the record. Their record will be 0-0 come January, and all that regular season stuff was just jockeying for position.

These are both good posts and worth discussing. The frustration here comes from, "we're good at beating mediocre to bad teams, we can't beat elite teams".

Which, from the two games this season, seems accurate. If we take the two games against Green Bay and against New England in a vaccuum, all indications are that this team will not succeed in the playoffs against elite caliber teams.

But really, if we're judging our team for playoff success/failure, it's not fair to judge them based on regular season success/failure, is it? We've seen recent Super Bowl winners have regular season mediocrity, yet post-season dominance. How can we extrapolate this to the playoffs when we've seen a grand total of ONE playoff run with Kubiak with a backup quarterback.

If we go to the playoffs this year and lay an egg, it'll be painful. If we go to the playoffs the following year and lay another egg, it's time for change.

Until then, if our goal is the Super Bowl, do you guys really think a head coaching change is the quickest way to that end? The moaning about Kubiak confuses me sometimes about whether people want change or they're just complaining for the sake of complaining.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 01:23 PM
...stats...

Tell you what, here's what I know, beyond the shadow of a doubt. Every single time they've run the draw play this year on 3rd and long inside their own 35, they've failed except once. I can go back and pull up game logs if I were so inclined, but I'm not. They're run it in just about every game at least once, multiple times in a couple others. They have succeeded with it ONCE. That's the stat I'm talking about. You want to take it to a more general place, but that's not where I'm going with it. I don't have a problem with Kubiak's 3rd down calls across the board. I have a problem with his play calling in very specific situations. Generally speaking, he does a great job. I've said that repeatedly in many of my posts. He's a great X's and O's guy. He just has no feel for adjustments and he goes to the "quit to fight another day" card way too fast. You can interpret the stuff you're looking up any way you want. I know what my eyes have told me, and if you want another data point, just go read the gameday threads. In the moment, when the play is being called, read what's being posted. Plenty of people are seeing the same thing I am.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 01:24 PM
But really, if we're judging our team for playoff success/failure, it's not fair to judge them based on regular season success/failure, is it?

There's a big difference between judgment and prediction.

utahmark
12-11-2012, 01:26 PM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/MechDX/bossmcnair.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/MechDX/cowher.jpg

He has not coached in 6 years. Does he even want to coach? does not seem like it. If he did decide to coach would he have the same fire as he used to have? Would he dedicate his life to out team? If we did get him would it take 13 years to win a superbowl? That's how long it took in pittsburgh. You really willing to wait 13 years? I think Cowher is happy where he is. I would'nt want him anyway.

Do all you guys wanting a new coach think our players on offense would be good in any other system. Our offensive line would need a complete overhaul. Our recievers would need a huge upgrade. I'm not ready to rebuild our team. I know some coaches come in and win right away but only if the right players are in place for what they want to do and unless you think Kyle Shanahan is ready to become a head coach we don't have the right players to win in any other system, At least on offense.

Unless the Harbaugh's have another brother I don't know about or this team loses the next 3 regular season games and gets knocked out in the first round of the playoff's I would rather stick to with what has gotten us here. Keep showing up in the playoff's and maybe we might just get hot at the right time. Thats really the key to winning it all anyway.

Marcus
12-11-2012, 01:28 PM
Just one quick question: Who picked the players? :thinking:

That is absolutely no reason to be excusing player performance. I've seen that response come up every single time we have this never ending proverbial players vs. coaches debate, and I think it's weak. The players need to be held just as accountable as the coaches. To only point a finger at the coaches, screams "quick fix". And quick fixes do not exist.

utahmark
12-11-2012, 01:29 PM
Tell you what, here's what I know, beyond the shadow of a doubt. Every single time they've run the draw play this year on 3rd and long inside their own 35, they've failed except once. I can go back and pull up game logs if I were so inclined, but I'm not. They're run it in just about every game at least once, multiple times in a couple others. They have succeeded with it ONCE. That's the stat I'm talking about. You want to take it to a more general place, but that's not where I'm going with it. I don't have a problem with Kubiak's 3rd down calls across the board. I have a problem with his play calling in very specific situations. Generally speaking, he does a great job. I've said that repeatedly in many of my posts. He's a great X's and O's guy. He just has no feel for adjustments and he goes to the "quit to fight another day" card way too fast. You can interpret the stuff you're looking up any way you want. I know what my eyes have told me, and if you want another data point, just go read the gameday threads. In the moment, when the play is being called, read what's being posted. Plenty of people are seeing the same thing I am.

He is not running the play to get a first down. He is running it to protect our QB from our non-pass blocking offensive line. We saw that we could'nt win in the playoff's without Schaub. I think this year he would like to see if we can win with him.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 01:31 PM
Until then, if our goal is the Super Bowl, do you guys really think a head coaching change is the quickest way to that end? The moaning about Kubiak confuses me sometimes about whether people want change or they're just complaining for the sake of complaining.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's about pointing out the shortcomings I see in an effort to wake people up to the realization about Kubiak that I came to long ago. I don't expect Kubiak to be fired tomorrow, nor would I want that. But I do not believe that he will ever win a Super Bowl with this team and I do not trust him to win big games.

Honestly, this thread is no different than the ongoing Fire David Carr thread back in the day. Some people came to the conclusion that Carr was not the guy long before others did and tried to explain why they came to that conclusion. Other people bashed them for their opinion and argued against it. We'll see who's wrong or right about this issue, but it isn't about that, IMO. It's about identifying weaknesses in the team and analyzing it. Every single week this team goes up against a good team, the checkmark for coaching goes to the other team. That's an area that can be improved. Since I want this team to win a Super Bowl, I am going to keep pointing out that deficiency in the hopes that enough people will finally recognize the truth and sway public opinion. Plenty of people will disagree with me, and that's fine. I'm trying to be as respectful in my arguments as possible, because it's all just opinion.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 01:32 PM
He is not running the play to get a first down.

That's kind of my point all along.

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 01:34 PM
Tell you what, here's what I know, beyond the shadow of a doubt. Every single time they've run the draw play this year on 3rd and long inside their own 35, they've failed except once. I can go back and pull up game logs if I were so inclined, but I'm not. They're run it in just about every game at least once, multiple times in a couple others. They have succeeded with it ONCE. That's the stat I'm talking about. You want to take it to a more general place, but that's not where I'm going with it. I don't have a problem with Kubiak's 3rd down calls across the board. I have a problem with his play calling in very specific situations. Generally speaking, he does a great job. I've said that repeatedly in many of my posts. He's a great X's and O's guy. He just has no feel for adjustments and he goes to the "quit to fight another day" card way too fast. You can interpret the stuff you're looking up any way you want. I know what my eyes have told me, and if you want another data point, just go read the gameday threads. In the moment, when the play is being called, read what's being posted. Plenty of people are seeing the same thing I am.

What's third and long? Third and 6? Third and 18? Third and 25? Many teams will run a draw on a "third and a mile" to set up the punt in that instance. They give up the offensive series for field position. In short, lose the battle (the series) win the war (field position/game). If the D goes 3 and out then you gain in field position.

Posts like yours above would get crucified on the Pats boards. Guys would expect you to site a trend, and not talk about generalities. It would help if you gave some stats beyond the Pats game. I am not saying you're wrong, I am saying show me the evidence to back up your point more than just your frustration with play calling.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 01:37 PM
That is absolutely no reason to be excusing player performance. I've seen that response come up every single time we have this never ending proverbial players vs. coaches debate, and I think it's weak. The players need to be held just as accountable as the coaches. To only point a finger at the coaches, screams "quick fix". And quick fixes do not exist.

I agree with this, with the caveat that it's the coach's job to put players in position to succeed. When a coach picks a player that has a very low chance of succeeding and then puts him in positon, and he fails, there's only so much blame you can put on the player. When I look at rookie Ben Jones getting blown up by Vince Wolfork, I recognize that Ben Jones is not getting the job done. But why was he put in that position? In part because Kubiak thought he could do without Winston and/or Brisiel. In part because the guy Kubiak really thought could do the job (Caldwell) couldn't, even when he was healthy. When Jacoby Jones dropped that punt in the Ravens game after displaying a tendency to do that for YEARS, I screamed obscenities at him through my TV set. When Kubiak put Jacoby back out there multiple times after that, I redirected my ire.

Kubiak absolutely bears a large percentage of the blame for his players not getting the job done. There are places where it's all on the player, for sure, but there are plenty of places that you can easily point to Kubiak.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 01:39 PM
Guys would expect you to site a trend, and not talk about generalities.

As I said in the post you quoted, I can go to the game logs and so can anyone else. Frankly, it's not a disputed point around here. We all know, even the people who disagree with my conclusions, what plays I'm talking about.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 01:39 PM
Tell you what, here's what I know, beyond the shadow of a doubt. Every single time they've run the draw play this year on 3rd and long inside their own 35, they've failed except once. I can go back and pull up game logs if I were so inclined, but I'm not. They're run it in just about every game at least once, multiple times in a couple others. They have succeeded with it ONCE. That's the stat I'm talking about. You want to take it to a more general place, but that's not where I'm going with it. I don't have a problem with Kubiak's 3rd down calls across the board. I have a problem with his play calling in very specific situations. Generally speaking, he does a great job. I've said that repeatedly in many of my posts. He's a great X's and O's guy. He just has no feel for adjustments and he goes to the "quit to fight another day" card way too fast. You can interpret the stuff you're looking up any way you want. I know what my eyes have told me, and if you want another data point, just go read the gameday threads. In the moment, when the play is being called, read what's being posted. Plenty of people are seeing the same thing I am.

Here are the numbers for this year.

With the run:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&team_id=htx&opp_id=&game_type=R&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&quarter=3&quarter=4&quarter=5&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=3&down=4&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=9&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=gt&fp_tm_opp=team&fp_ydline=&type=RUSH&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards

There have been very few true situations there.

When we have a lead in the fourth, running is not a bad choice.
When the half is about to end, running is not a bad choice.
When your team is back inside its own ten, running is not a bad choice.
When the outcome of the game is already clear, it doesn't matter what you do.

With the pass:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&team_id=htx&opp_id=&game_type=R&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&quarter=3&quarter=4&quarter=5&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=3&down=4&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=9&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=gt&fp_tm_opp=team&fp_ydline=&type=PASS&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards

Clearly we used the pass a whole more, especially when you consider where we are on the field, what the scores are, etc.

Marcus
12-11-2012, 01:40 PM
This thread will be around forever...:gamer:

Look on the bright side . . at least there's only ONE of them. Before someone came up with the "all encompassing" idea with that quarterback who won't be named, there was 50 fricken thousand of them.

Porky
12-11-2012, 01:42 PM
This.

Kubiak is an above-average coach. He can draw up plays with the best of them, his players love him, and he has taken us from 2-14 to 11-2. But he is terrible at deviating from his pre-determined gameplan, clock management, and all things defense (think of the DCs he hired before Wade was hired).

But until there is someone out there who is better than Kubiak, we should roll with Kubiak. There is no sense in making a change just for the hell of it.

This :goodpost:

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 01:48 PM
Here are the numbers for this year.

With the run:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&team_id=htx&opp_id=&game_type=R&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&quarter=3&quarter=4&quarter=5&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=3&down=4&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=9&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=gt&fp_tm_opp=team&fp_ydline=&type=RUSH&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards

There have been very few true situations there.

When we have a lead in the fourth, running is not a bad choice.
When the half is about to end, running is not a bad choice.
When your team is back inside its own ten, running is not a bad choice.
When the outcome of the game is already clear, it doesn't matter what you do.

With the pass:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&team_id=htx&opp_id=&game_type=R&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&quarter=3&quarter=4&quarter=5&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=3&down=4&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=9&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=gt&fp_tm_opp=team&fp_ydline=&type=PASS&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards

Clearly we used the pass a whole more, especially when you consider where we are on the field, what the scores are, etc.

I didn't know you could do that. nice job.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 01:49 PM
Take the time to go through each situation from both those links.

At the end of the day, people should realize that all this third and long stuff is just smoke.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 01:50 PM
I didn't know you could do that. nice job.

I stumbled on it earlier this year, it's a new feature.

Marcus
12-11-2012, 01:50 PM
I agree with this, with the caveat that it's the coach's job to put players in position to succeed. When a coach picks a player that has a very low chance of succeeding and then puts him in positon, and he fails, there's only so much blame you can put on the player. When I look at rookie Ben Jones getting blown up by Vince Wolfork, I recognize that Ben Jones is not getting the job done. But why was he put in that position? In part because Kubiak thought he could do without Winston and/or Brisiel. In part because the guy Kubiak really thought could do the job (Caldwell) couldn't, even when he was healthy. When Jacoby Jones dropped that punt in the Ravens game after displaying a tendency to do that for YEARS, I screamed obscenities at him through my TV set. When Kubiak put Jacoby back out there multiple times after that, I redirected my ire.

Kubiak absolutely bears a large percentage of the blame for his players not getting the job done. There are places where it's all on the player, for sure, but there are plenty of places that you can easily point to Kubiak.

And that falls flat when you consider what choices he had at that particular time. When Ben Jones, the rookie, wasn't getting the job done, who did he have an an alternative at the time. When he using Jacoby Jones at the time, what was his alternative, at the time? Just a little bit too much second guessing born out of hindsight, but I realize by now, this is the way it works. Monday morning quarterbacking reigning supreme.

buddyboy
12-11-2012, 01:55 PM
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's about pointing out the shortcomings I see in an effort to wake people up to the realization about Kubiak that I came to long ago. I don't expect Kubiak to be fired tomorrow, nor would I want that. But I do not believe that he will ever win a Super Bowl with this team and I do not trust him to win big games.

Honestly, this thread is no different than the ongoing Fire David Carr thread back in the day. Some people came to the conclusion that Carr was not the guy long before others did and tried to explain why they came to that conclusion. Other people bashed them for their opinion and argued against it. We'll see who's wrong or right about this issue, but it isn't about that, IMO. It's about identifying weaknesses in the team and analyzing it. Every single week this team goes up against a good team, the checkmark for coaching goes to the other team. That's an area that can be improved. Since I want this team to win a Super Bowl, I am going to keep pointing out that deficiency in the hopes that enough people will finally recognize the truth and sway public opinion. Plenty of people will disagree with me, and that's fine. I'm trying to be as respectful in my arguments as possible, because it's all just opinion.

I can understand believing that Kubiak will not ever bring us to a Superbowl. I can see the deficiencies, but I think every coach has deficiencies and that these flaws that people see in Kubiak aren't so severe that a superbowl is impossible. I'd say we have just as much of a chance with any other coach out there outside of Belichick class coaches.

But if you truly don't think Kubiak will take us there, and you've said the goal is the Superbowl, why wouldn't you be calling for his firing? Otherwise, you're changing public opinion to...what?

Exascor
12-11-2012, 01:56 PM
It will continue to be moved, but your reasoning is dead wrong. The reason is actually much simpler - we want a Super Bowl. When you're a 2-14 team, the target is to improve. When you're an 8-8 team, the target becomes having a winning record and maybe making the payoffs. When you've made the playoffs, the target becomes winning a Super Bowl. If you seriously think your team is a Super Bowl contender, then you expect to see certain indicators to that effect. Winning games against elite competition is one such indicator. Losing those games tends to indicate that your team will lose big games in the playoffs. Hence the frustration.I'm with you. I want to win the Superbowl. This year. Every year. It's a tough goal to have though. REALLY tough.

You know what Kubiak and Belichick have in common? Neither has won a Superbowl since Kubiak became a head coach. Oh yeah - Belichick has Brady too.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 01:57 PM
And that falls flat when you consider what choices he had at that particular time. When Ben Jones, the rookie, wasn't getting the job done, who did he have an an alternative at the time. When he using Jacoby Jones at the time, what was his alternative, at the time? Just a little bit too much second guessing born out of hindsight, but I realize by now, this is the way it works. Monday morning quarterbacking reigning supreme.

You cannot win every battle in the trench to begin with.
A ZBS scheme like ours normally have smaller linemen.
You win some, you lose some.
The RB has to read the block and make the right decision.
The QB has to hit the open man.
The receivers (especially the more reliable veterans) have to make the catch.

It seems like some people wants an All-Star line-up; and they will also be the first to complain about the cap situation. :gun:

Doppelganger
12-11-2012, 02:03 PM
I am not sure I should post in here...

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 02:04 PM
Take the time to go through each situation from both those links.

At the end of the day, people should realize that all this third and long stuff is just smoke.

I just did it for NE.

On third and greater than 9 to go, the Pats ran the ball 8 times, converted one first down. They threw the ball 46 times, converting 17. 37% converted via pass.

In the same situation, Houston passed 38 times, converting 7. 18% conversion rate. You also threw 4 picks. You guys ran it an astounding 22 times, converting the aforementioned one time. That would wind the ever loving snot out of me as well.

The difference between staffs? I bet Belichick knew this off the top of his head, and clearly, who ever is calling plays for you guys, doesn't. Now, this is the old "put the ball in the hands of our best player" theory. But, as eriadoc has pointed out, it ain't working.

what a neat toy that is!

76Texan
12-11-2012, 02:14 PM
I just did it for NE.

On third and greater than 9 to go, the Pats ran the ball 8 times, converted one first down. They threw the ball 46 times, converting 17. 37% converted via pass.

In the same situation, Houston passed 38 times, converting 7. 18% conversion rate. You also threw 4 picks. You guys ran it an astounding 22 times, converting the aforementioned one time. That would wind the ever loving snot out of me as well.

The difference between staffs? I bet Belichick knew this off the top of his head, and clearly, who ever is calling plays for you guys, doesn't. Now, this is the old "put the ball in the hands of our best player" theory. But, as eriadoc has pointed out, it ain't working.

what a neat toy that is!You forgot to consider the situations a I had mentioned in an earlier post.

There are only but a few times that are true situations when we need to convert using the run (you can count it with one hand).

One out of five, for example, is 20%.


...

You can sort the plays by date by clicking on the headline "date" in that particular column.

We had 4 situations in the Dolphins game, for instance.

In the second quarter, facing 3rd and 20 at their 20, we opted to run.

Then we kicked the FG to take the lead.

Our defense was playing great; the call is not too conservative there.

The other 3 times was in the fourth quarter, when we already had a big lead.

Run the ball, punt, and play defense.

We were not giving the Dolphins anything the whole day, nothing is going to or needs to change now.

eriadoc
12-11-2012, 02:19 PM
Here are the numbers for this year.

With the run:

That thing is not accurate. I just started looking at game logs to post here, and then I realized I don't give a damn enough to bother going through 13 games worth of game logs to prove something that's evident to even a casual fan. Nonetheless, the second game log I looked at had the exact situation I talk about. The team was up, but the game was far from over, and it was 3rd and long inside the 10. Draw play to the right for 6 yards, then punt. Then gave up a TD to make it interesting. That wasn't listed at your link.

I'm not even going over that crap. It's not worth my time. But if you want to use your link for stats, you need to cross reference it with some game logs on NFL.com. Your link is incomplete.

Double Barrel
12-11-2012, 02:22 PM
That is absolutely no reason to be excusing player performance.

I do not disagree with you. However, this is a Kubiak thread. And this team respresents Kubiak as a head coach, from his coaching staff all the way down to the bench.

That is absolutely no reason to be excusing player performance. I've seen that response come up every single time we have this never ending proverbial players vs. coaches debate, and I think it's weak. The players need to be held just as accountable as the coaches. To only point a finger at the coaches, screams "quick fix". And quick fixes do not exist.

I did not excuse player performance. You can think it's weak, your right to an opinion.

The point being that the buck stops at Kubiak at the end of the day. His players, his schemes, his preparation, his playcalling. The players can only run the plays given to them. Gary calls all of those on offense.

ONE MAN - Kubiak - has more influence on games than any other person in this organization.

BTW, I'm not advocating quick fix or firing Kubiak at this point. I'm just saying that all the blind and delusional homer glasses that some folks wear need to be taken off. Kubiak is much like Norv Turner to me right now. He can put together a solid regular season team, but his team has yet to be anything until they earn it. I think we just need to be pragmatic and accept the limitations accordingly. The difference between criticism and skepticism.

He got his ass handed to him by Belichick last night. I do not see some magical transformation in the playoffs where Kubiak could out-coach Belichick. A team like the Patriots would have to beat themselves for us to win a playoff game, which is highly unlikely.

Foxboro Steve
12-11-2012, 02:24 PM
You forgot to consider the situations a I had mentioned in an earlier post.

There are only but a few times that are true situations when we need to convert using the run (you can count it with one hand).

One out of five, for example, is 20%

Forgive me for being the noob, but I am not following you. Why wouldn't you want to convert? Running the ball 22 times on 3rd and greater than nine to go seems excessive to me. It's not like Foster is your only option. Johnson is the #1 or #1a WR in the league. Daniels is no slouch at TE.

76Texan
12-11-2012, 02:35 PM
I just did it for NE.

On third and greater than 9 to go, the Pats ran the ball 8 times, converted one first down. They threw the ball 46 times, converting 17. 37% converted via pass.

In the same situation, Houston passed 38 times, converting 7. 18% conversion rate. You also threw 4 picks. You guys ran it an astounding 22 times, converting the aforementioned one time. That would wind the ever loving snot out of me as well.

The difference between staffs? I bet Belichick knew this off the top of his head, and clearly, who ever is calling plays for you guys, doesn't. Now, this is the old "put the ball in the hands of our best player" theory. But, as eriadoc has pointed out, it ain't working.

what a neat toy that is!

Forgive me for being the noob, but I am not following you. Why wouldn't you want to convert? Running the ball 22 times on 3rd and greater than nine to go seems excessive to me. It's not like Foster is your only option. Johnson is the #1 or #1a WR in the league. Daniels is no slouch at TE.
Like I said, in the Dolphins game for example, we had a large lead and so we ran the ball in the fourth quarter. There's nothing wrong with that.

The majority of the situations for the Pats were different.
You needed to convert the majority of those situations.