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thunderkyss
09-10-2009, 05:07 PM
Granted at the end of last year's preseason, I couldn't see where our run game was going to come from. & I was also pretty high on the job our OL did as the season went on.

But looking at our starters in the preseason, I've got to say I'm very, very worried. I understand it's preseason, but I've watched other teams in the preseason run the ball much more efficiently than we do, using the same "system". One being New Orleans, and the other Seattle.

I've already broken down two of our running plays, the first against Minnesota (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1244623&postcount=61), and our second (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1244669&postcount=65) in another thread.

Here is a third run play against Minnesota. This is after the play Schaub initially hurt his ankle. 5:40 remaining in the second half.

1st & 15
We're lined up in the offset I, with Leach on the strong side. Two wide recievers out to the left, the weakside. Andre Davis, out wide, and Andre Johnson in the slot. Davis motions to the LT before the snap.

The Vikings are in a base 4-3 with a Corner on Davis, and no one on AJ. It's times like this, I wish we could audible.

Davis motions in, the corner covers AJ, and the WLB moves up to the LOS covering Davis.

At the snap, everyone moves right, to the strong side. Vonta takes on the free cornerback that's off to the right, even though both our receivers were on the left. He shoots at Leaches knees, Leach covers him up, and they are both out of the play. Duane Brown is free off the LOS. He heads to the second level, and throws himself at the MLB. The MLB is hardly phased, as he continues to the LOS, and stops Slaton's forward progress. This is one of the things that is bothering me. We throw ourselves at these defensive players in a very futile manner. We should have the same huge advantage every other team has, when their linemen get to our LBs. They're popping us in the mouth, and we're tapping them on the shoulder.

Chester Pitts jumps on the ground, as if someone was shooting at him. He lays in front of their back up DT, who jumps over him and continues to make the play & grabs Slaton behind the LOS.

White gives Kevin Williams a good shove, to help Briesel get him moving laterally along the line. White then turns upfield, and squares off against Greenway, whom he meets at the LOS. He stops Greenway from getting in on the play, and pushes him off the LOS, about two yards. But Slaton is already being gang tackled behind him.

Briesel takes on Kevin Williams one-on-one. He is initially stood up, but the hit from White gets them moving to the right. He does an okay job of clearing Williams, until he's thrown off balance, by running into the feet of Vonta Leach & the Corner back who was free on the right side. Slaton can't get around Briesel, because of the mess made by Leach & the CB, so he has to cut it up, behind Winston. Kevin Williams is able to take advantage of Briesel being off balance, and come back to the play. He contacts Slaton behind the LOS, at the same time that #90 does.

Winston, who commited the false start on the previous play, to put us in 1st & 15 to begin with initially puts a good hit on their strong side DE. He passes him off to OD, then tries to move up field. But Briesel pushes Kevin Williams into him, so he dives at the SLB (Greenway) but lands on the ground, totally out of the play.

OD takes on the RDE, is stood up, until Winston smacks their guy. I don't know what OD was thinking at this time, but he didn't look too concerned about taking the DE out of the play. Instead, he just "stood in his way" preventing the DE from getting behind him, but the DE was able to go back inside, and help gang tackle Slaton.

On this play, there is no lane for Slaton to run through. No cutback for him to cut back to, nothing.

Why not? Is it because Minnesota was a top 5 run defense last year? Should we not expect our Linemen to get to & take out LBs? Is Minnesota's LBs so good that our Linemen don't have a chance?

On this play, we took both DEs & their SAM out of the play, but our RB was still gang tackled after a 2 yard pick-up.

disaacks3
09-10-2009, 05:16 PM
Is it because Minnesota was a top 5 run defense last year? Yep.

The bottom line is that we did some good and some bad things on that play and going against #1 (against the run), it ALL needs to go well to be more than mediocre.

spurstexanstros
09-10-2009, 05:18 PM
and the Texans were so concerned that they drafted a LB yet another DE two tight ends and a S...I am telling ya we made a mistake not drafting a rb in the second or third round.

TimeKiller
09-10-2009, 05:33 PM
Since you clearly have the game recorded...

Are they utilizing the cut block as called for? I remember when the system came around it was called "notorious for dirty cut blocking" by many and my thought is maybe they leave the dirty stuff out until the reg.

Or maybe they've just been getting their asses handed to them

Carr Bombed
09-10-2009, 05:38 PM
Since you clearly have the game recorded...

Are they utilizing the cut block as called for? I remember when the system came around it was called "notorious for dirty cut blocking" by many and my thought is maybe they leave the dirty stuff out until the reg.

Or maybe they've just been getting their asses handed to them

I've seen Duane Brown cut a couple of guys during the preseason, one play he got called for a questionable penalty.

thunderkyss
09-10-2009, 05:45 PM
Here's another play, that most of us would look at as a success.

3:42 left in the second half. 2nd & 3 from the 4 yard line. We're lined up in the I, twins to the left, strong side to the right. Again, the defense lines up in a basic 4-3 formation, with one cornerback on each side. The slot receiver is Davis, covered by the WILL. He motions behind our OL, the Will moves to above our tackle, the other LBs shift accordingly.

At the snap, the OL moves forward. Except Brown, who swings left, to take on Will Allen. He does a good job of keeping him away from the play. Looks almost effortless, letting Allen arc around him.

Chester Pitts attacks the WILL, who sheds Pitts with a simple sidestep to his left. Pitts actually does a flip, and lands on his butt. The WILL does lunge at Slaton, but misses. Now a Houston fan would probably say Chester did a good job. That he did enough to keep the WILL from making the play.

Chris White took on their back up DT, #90. And does an okay job blocking him. He doesn't give up any ground, but he doesn't push him too far off the line either.

Briesel takes on Kevin Williams, and does about the same job.

The MLB shoots through the little gap between White & Briesel. He misses Slaton by a hair.

Winston comes in to help Briesel. Doesn't really look like he's doing much, as he doesn't move him anywhere.

Vonta Leach leads the way between Pitts & White. That's where the biggest hole was. But because Pitts did (IMO) such a horrible job blocking a LB, Vonta had to run closer to White than he should have. Slaton following had to do the same. But Vonta got brushed by #90, because he had to run so close. Vonta was still able to put a great block on the SAM, who would have been the only one stopping Slaton from reaching the endzone.

We scored a touchdown because Vonta Leach is a bad ass..... PERIOD.

What I want to point out here, is that we all look at Chester Pitts as our best offensive lineman. & he gets tossed like a Ragdoll.

ZB is supposed to be about blocking the guy that crosses your face, then proceed to the second level. But we didn't do that either. Briesel got locked up on Kevin Williams, and he couldn't get off. Granted Williams is a pro bowler.... but it doesn't look like he even tried to pass him off to Winston.

The MLB shot through the gap, and missed Slaton by a hair. We shouldn't be relying on the MLB to get through our line, and miss our tailback by a hair. Briesel should have got off his block, and took out the MLB. Chris White even pointed him out twice.

We've got another formation, a defensive mismatch, with two WRs to the left, and only one CB, and we don't adjust.

Preseason I know. But I thought this is when we're supposed to be identifying & addressing these problems.

To see this in the third preseason game, makes me question if our offense is ready for Sept 13.

thunderkyss
09-10-2009, 05:54 PM
and the Texans were so concerned that they drafted a LB yet another DE two tight ends and a S...I am telling ya we made a mistake not drafting a rb in the second or third round.

A better running back would not fix any of the problems I'm pointing out.

Since you clearly have the game recorded...

Are they utilizing the cut block as called for? I remember when the system came around it was called "notorious for dirty cut blocking" by many and my thought is maybe they leave the dirty stuff out until the reg.

Or maybe they've just been getting their asses handed to them

The only good cut block I've seen in this game, was Duane Brown on Kevin Williams. I'm sure there may be more, but the majority of the ones I'm seeing, our players lay on the ground, waiting for someone to trip over them.

I'll take that back, I saw a good one layed by Owen Daniels on their DE. He threw his body into the DEs hips, which is a good legal block.

thunderkyss
09-10-2009, 05:57 PM
I've seen Duane Brown cut a couple of guys during the preseason, one play he got called for a questionable penalty.

The only "questionable" penalty I remember on Brown, was when he reached and grabbed a players foot. They called him for holding on that play.

DocBar
09-10-2009, 06:05 PM
Granted at the end of last year's preseason, I couldn't see where our run game was going to come from. & I was also pretty high on the job our OL did as the season went on.

But looking at our starters in the preseason, I've got to say I'm very, very worried. I understand it's preseason, but I've watched other teams in the preseason run the ball much more efficiently than we do, using the same "system". One being New Orleans, and the other Seattle.

I've already broken down two of our running plays, the first against Minnesota (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1244623&postcount=61), and our second (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1244669&postcount=65) in another thread.

Here is a third run play against Minnesota. This is after the play Schaub initially hurt his ankle. 5:40 remaining in the second half.

1st & 15
We're lined up in the offset I, with Leach on the strong side. Two wide recievers out to the left, the weakside. Andre Davis, out wide, and Andre Johnson in the slot. Davis motions to the LT before the snap.

The Vikings are in a base 4-3 with a Corner on Davis, and no one on AJ. It's times like this, I wish we could audible.

Davis motions in, the corner covers AJ, and the WLB moves up to the LOS covering Davis.

At the snap, everyone moves right, to the strong side. Vonta takes on the free cornerback that's off to the right, even though both our receivers were on the left. He shoots at Leaches knees, Leach covers him up, and they are both out of the play. Duane Brown is free off the LOS. He heads to the second level, and throws himself at the MLB. The MLB is hardly phased, as he continues to the LOS, and stops Slaton's forward progress. This is one of the things that is bothering me. We throw ourselves at these defensive players in a very futile manner. We should have the same huge advantage every other team has, when their linemen get to our LBs. They're popping us in the mouth, and we're tapping them on the shoulder.

Chester Pitts jumps on the ground, as if someone was shooting at him. He lays in front of their back up DT, who jumps over him and continues to make the play & grabs Slaton behind the LOS.

White gives Kevin Williams a good shove, to help Briesel get him moving laterally along the line. White then turns upfield, and squares off against Greenway, whom he meets at the LOS. He stops Greenway from getting in on the play, and pushes him off the LOS, about two yards. But Slaton is already being gang tackled behind him.

Briesel takes on Kevin Williams one-on-one. He is initially stood up, but the hit from White gets them moving to the right. He does an okay job of clearing Williams, until he's thrown off balance, by running into the feet of Vonta Leach & the Corner back who was free on the right side. Slaton can't get around Briesel, because of the mess made by Leach & the CB, so he has to cut it up, behind Winston. Kevin Williams is able to take advantage of Briesel being off balance, and come back to the play. He contacts Slaton behind the LOS, at the same time that #90 does.

Winston, who commited the false start on the previous play, to put us in 1st & 15 to begin with initially puts a good hit on their strong side DE. He passes him off to OD, then tries to move up field. But Briesel pushes Kevin Williams into him, so he dives at the SLB (Greenway) but lands on the ground, totally out of the play.

OD takes on the RDE, is stood up, until Winston smacks their guy. I don't know what OD was thinking at this time, but he didn't look too concerned about taking the DE out of the play. Instead, he just "stood in his way" preventing the DE from getting behind him, but the DE was able to go back inside, and help gang tackle Slaton.

On this play, there is no lane for Slaton to run through. No cutback for him to cut back to, nothing.

Why not? Is it because Minnesota was a top 5 run defense last year? Should we not expect our Linemen to get to & take out LBs? Is Minnesota's LBs so good that our Linemen don't have a chance?

On this play, we took both DEs & their SAM out of the play, but our RB was still gang tackled after a 2 yard pick-up.

You make it sound like our OL is coached by Mr. Mittens with the stop drop and roll blocking scheme. I'm about to rewatch the Vikes game and see what I see.

thunderkyss
09-10-2009, 06:10 PM
You make it sound like our OL is coached by Mr. Mittens with the stop drop and roll blocking scheme. I'm about to rewatch the Vikes game and see what I see.

Yep, that's what I'm saying. If you see something different, please let me know.

TimeKiller
09-10-2009, 06:22 PM
The only good cut block I've seen in this game, was Duane Brown on Kevin Williams. I'm sure there may be more, but the majority of the ones I'm seeing, our players lay on the ground, waiting for someone to trip over them.

I'll take that back, I saw a good one layed by Owen Daniels on their DE. He threw his body into the DEs hips, which is a good legal block.

So they are still cut blocking just not effectively? I'm just saying man, after watching Shanason's conservative ass play calling it wouldn't surprise me to learn that he told the lineman to hold back too.

b0ng
09-10-2009, 06:22 PM
All of the starters from last year are in place and healthy for the first game. I am not worried about the running game because I am not worried about a crippled Jets defense. The absence of Shaun Ellis and Calvin Pace (Their best pass rusher) will play a pretty big role, and I have faith our coaches will attempt to take advantage of this perceived weakness. Maybe I'm a big pollyanna but we tangle with a much better defense twice a year and we still do okay. I'm not sure that Rex Ryan the head coach will be the same as having Rex Ryan the defensive coordinator.

I'm glad you decided to break down some preseason football, for you are more of a fan than I. In the end, it seems like injuries in preseason mean more to the regular season than any sort of performance gauge. If all of the players are there, then I don't see why they can't perform as good as last year or better when the bullets are flying. Having a passing game as good as ours can dictate how the running game goes, and Steve Slaton has proven that he can take advantage of a defense on it's heels from having to defend AJ and OD all day long.

So to conclude, I see the running game lacking that pop that it had from mid season last year, but I can't just write it off before we've seen what they do when it counts.

DocBar
09-10-2009, 07:13 PM
Looking at the 1st run you dissected, it looks like 94 just made a great play. He shed his blocker and got the tackle. I attribute that to him being a very good DT. The hole was HUGE to start with.

76Texan
09-10-2009, 11:42 PM
Here is a third run play against Minnesota. This is after the play Schaub initially hurt his ankle. 5:40 remaining in the second half.

1st & 15

I would say the two main culprits in this play are:
1. Brisiel in the running lane.
2. Pitts failing to provide the cut back lane.

I will elaborate soon!

barrett
09-11-2009, 01:11 AM
Rick Smith says that he expects the run game to perform fairly well. I agree with him. We think that the ZBS has much to do with rhythm and sync and in the preseason you're starters are pulled.

Eric Winston and I also think that as a starter you are often times getting pulled from a preseason game just when you're starting to find your rhythm. (I'm not complaining about puling starters. I'm happy with how that system works out.) If you watched the game tonight you saw two fairly sloppy run games.

After the end of the first two weeks if our run game is looking mediocre and every is crying about how we're gonna suck I'm going to look to our preseason against one of the best run defenses in preseason followed by two of the best run defenses (1st, 7th and 6th respectively)

I expect us to run the ball well. We may not run it that well in the first two weeks. I think we will be fine.

jppaul
09-11-2009, 01:17 AM
The only "questionable" penalty I remember on Brown, was when he reached and grabbed a players foot. They called him for holding on that play.

IIRC, I think he was actually executing a cut block and caught the other players legs with his upper arm and was called for tripping, but hey you have the recording.

DocBar
09-11-2009, 01:22 AM
IIRC, I think he was actually executing a cut block and caught the other players legs with his upper arm and was called for tripping, but hey you have the recording.I remember one play this PS where DB was actually on his back trying to grab an ankle. I'm on strong pain meds right now, so I could be full of crap.

thunderkyss
09-11-2009, 01:24 AM
Rick Smith says that he expects the run game to perform fairly well. I agree with him. We think that the ZBS has much to do with rhythm and sync and in the preseason you're starters are pulled.

Eric Winston and I also think that as a starter you are often times getting pulled from a preseason game just when you're starting to find your rhythm. (I'm not complaining about puling starters. I'm happy with how that system works out.) If you watched the game tonight you saw two fairly sloppy run games.

After the end of the first two weeks if our run game is looking mediocre and every is crying about how we're gonna suck I'm going to look to our preseason against one of the best run defenses in preseason followed by two of the best run defenses (1st, 7th and 6th respectively)

I expect us to run the ball well. We may not run it that well in the first two weeks. I think we will be fine.

I can buy that. Even though Minnesota was a "dress rehersal", you're right in that they barely had a full Half worth of play from the first two games.

I'm still a little worried.

76Texan
09-11-2009, 01:52 AM
I would say the two main culprits in this play are:
1. Brisiel in the running lane.
2. Pitts failing to provide the cut back lane.

I will elaborate soon!

I make these notes and assumptions.

Normally, the RB (Slaton) would follow the lead blocker (Leach).
In this case, Leach went outside the TE (O.D.), so I would assume that's the original point of attack. An outside zone run.

There was only a DB out there, and when he went wide, Leach took him down, to the outside. That should clear the way for Slaton.

O.D. blocked in on the LDE. This further indicates an outside zone run.

Also, Winston joined O.D. in the combo block at the start, but never intended to push the LDE to the outside. The two of them could have easily done that. Further indication of an outside zone run.
But Winston was to disengage to go up to the SAM, which he did, but missed.

Brisiel took on the RDT, but couldn't get ahead and got pushed sideway and a little more than two yards behind the LOS, right into the running lane.

Brisiel needed to get ahead to the playside shoulder of the RDT; that would allow White to join in the combo block and help drive the RDT back.
White started on it, but realized he couldn't get square up into the block (due to Brisiel), so he broke off and go to the MLB.


Slaton wanted to cut back but there was no cut back lane.
Pitts tried to cut block the LDT, but allowed him to get over easily and clamp down from behind.
(I think it was Vinny who mentioned before about Pitts' unwillingness to cut block high) ... so he rolled down, very early and low.

A.D. came in to block the RDE.
Supposedly, a good cut block by Pitts should deter both the RDT and the RDE on the backside. (with a little help by A.D.)
As well as the WILL who had committed himself to the outside of AD and the RDE.

Brown also went for the SAM (before Winston) but didn't get him cleanly (being too far away).
But you can't ask too much of him due to the distance.

It was a good call.
We had number on that side. The players just didn't execute.

Note - I wouldn't worry about all the pre-snap stuffs.
The D can always adjust.
Plus they did have the safety to help the CB on AJ.
Had A.D. stayed outside, the WILL was there; and the other safety can always shift to help.
There never was any one-on-one situation.

Thorn
09-11-2009, 05:48 AM
The Texans offense will be better this year. Other than the usual worries about injuries, the only thing that really worries me about our offensive players is the QB position, not the rest of them.

After one year, Slaton has proven more to me than Schaub has in two years. Hopefully Schaub makes me look like an ass for saying this, because I would love to be proven wrong.

CloakNNNdagger
09-11-2009, 07:57 AM
After I watched the Tacks totally shut down the Steelers' running game, I had visions of a similar Week 2 experience if the Texans don't get their running act running on all cylinders. Schaub, if he even gets to that game, may be getting a good view of the Reliant roof often.......or the view of the tiled ceiling of an emergency room.

Thorn
09-11-2009, 08:01 AM
After I watched the Tacks totally shut down the Steelers' running game, I had visions of a similar Week 2 experience if the Texans don't get their running act running on all cylinders. Schaub, if he even gets to that game, may be getting a good view of the Reliant roof often.......or the view of the tiled ceiling of an emergency room.

Don't worry, Rex Grossoutthetacks will save us. :)

Hervoyel
09-11-2009, 08:54 AM
I'm just going to wait and see what happens because I don't really think that what I see in preseason tells the whole story and I doubt that I have the ability to look at it objectively and differentiate between what's significant and what isn't.

In 2006 we had our Sherman/Kubiak hybrid running game and that got us 1685 yards on the year. Sherman went to A&M and Alex Gibbs appeared (Probably in a big red cloud of smoke croaking "Who has summoned me?") and he started messing with the offensive line. That resulted in a drop of about 100 yards in 2007 to 1586 while we fiddled with stuff (and waited for Ahman Green to get healthy... ) but then last season we saw tangible results in the form of consistent line play over most of the season and the arrival of a RB who could actually take advantage of it (Slaton).

In 2008 we ran for 1846 yards. That's almost a 300 yard improvement on the year. If we can get to about 2000 yards this year give or take a hundred I'll be happy. If everybody stays healthy and we don't get off to a horrible start this is possible I believe.

HOU-TEX
09-11-2009, 09:05 AM
We scored a touchdown because Vonta Leach is a bad ass..... PERIOD.



Umm..............Duh!

You just now figuring that out?

CloakNNNdagger
09-11-2009, 09:14 AM
I'm just going to wait and see what happens because I don't really think that what I see in preseason tells the whole story and I doubt that I have the ability to look at it objectively and differentiate between what's significant and what isn't.

In 2006 we had our Sherman/Kubiak hybrid running game and that got us 1685 yards on the year. Sherman went to A&M and Alex Gibbs appeared (Probably in a big red cloud of smoke croaking "Who has summoned me?") and he started messing with the offensive line. That resulted in a drop of about 100 yards in 2007 to 1586 while we fiddled with stuff (and waited for Ahman Green to get healthy... ) but then last season we saw tangible results in the form of consistent line play over most of the season and the arrival of a RB who could actually take advantage of it (Slaton).

In 2008 we ran for 1846 yards. That's almost a 300 yard improvement on the year. If we can get to about 2000 yards this year give or take a hundred I'll be happy. If everybody stays healthy and we don't get off to a horrible start this is possible I believe.


I tend to agree with you on this. But I'm also trying to remember when our regular season performances were markedly improved over what we expected to see from the preseason experience. Although, I can remember many examples where the regular season performance was markedly worse than that predicted by the preceding preseason experience.

DocBar
09-11-2009, 10:06 AM
I tend to agree with you on this. But I'm also trying to remember when our regular season performances were markedly improved over what we expected to see from the preseason experience. Although, I can remember many examples where the regular season performance was markedly worse than that predicted by the preceding preseason experience.Last season. We had no idea SS was going to be such a good runner. DD's 1st year,also.

Spike
09-11-2009, 10:30 AM
I tend to agree with you on this. But I'm also trying to remember when our regular season performances were markedly improved over what we expected to see from the preseason experience. Although, I can remember many examples where the regular season performance was markedly worse than that predicted by the preceding preseason experience.

I can't really remember either, but considering that we are working with all of the same parts as last year, a LT that has a year under his belt, a RB in his second season, plus another year of continuity - I am willing to rely more on our performance last year as an indication of what to expect this year, compared to what we saw in the preseason.

The Pencil Neck
09-11-2009, 10:55 AM
I'm just going to wait and see what happens because I don't really think that what I see in preseason tells the whole story and I doubt that I have the ability to look at it objectively and differentiate between what's significant and what isn't.

In 2006 we had our Sherman/Kubiak hybrid running game and that got us 1685 yards on the year. Sherman went to A&M and Alex Gibbs appeared (Probably in a big red cloud of smoke croaking "Who has summoned me?") and he started messing with the offensive line. That resulted in a drop of about 100 yards in 2007 to 1586 while we fiddled with stuff (and waited for Ahman Green to get healthy... ) but then last season we saw tangible results in the form of consistent line play over most of the season and the arrival of a RB who could actually take advantage of it (Slaton).

In 2008 we ran for 1846 yards. That's almost a 300 yard improvement on the year. If we can get to about 2000 yards this year give or take a hundred I'll be happy. If everybody stays healthy and we don't get off to a horrible start this is possible I believe.

Don't you have the timing wrong on this? You were saying Gibbs came in 2007, but that's wrong.

2006 - Sherman was the line coach. 1685 yards.
2007 - Sherman was the OC. 1586 yards.
End of Sherman/Kubiak experiment.
2008 - Gibbs arrives. 1846 yards.

Hervoyel
09-11-2009, 11:07 AM
Don't you have the timing wrong on this? You were saying Gibbs came in 2007, but that's wrong.

2006 - Sherman was the line coach. 1685 yards.
2007 - Sherman was the OC. 1586 yards.
End of Sherman/Kubiak experiment.
2008 - Gibbs arrives. 1846 yards.

You know what? I think you're right. I'm getting old and not as good at.... what were we talking about again?

CloakNNNdagger
09-11-2009, 11:38 AM
Last season. We had no idea SS was going to be such a good runner. DD's 1st year,also.

I'm not arguing that, but the way the season turned out cannot be interpretted as anything but luke warm, and in many aspects still quite disappointing.

76Texan
09-11-2009, 11:40 AM
Here's another play, that most of us would look at as a success.

3:42 left in the second half. 2nd & 3 from the 4 yard line. At the snap, the OL moves forward. Except Brown, who swings left, to take on Will Allen. He does a good job of keeping him away from the play. Looks almost effortless, letting Allen arc around him.

Chester Pitts attacks the WILL, who sheds Pitts with a simple sidestep to his left. Pitts actually does a flip, and lands on his butt. The WILL does lunge at Slaton, but misses. Now a Houston fan would probably say Chester did a good job. That he did enough to keep the WILL from making the play.

Chris White took on their back up DT, #90. And does an okay job blocking him. He doesn't give up any ground, but he doesn't push him too far off the line either.

Briesel takes on Kevin Williams, and does about the same job.

The MLB shoots through the little gap between White & Briesel. He misses Slaton by a hair.

Winston comes in to help Briesel. Doesn't really look like he's doing much, as he doesn't move him anywhere.

Vonta Leach leads the way between Pitts & White. That's where the biggest hole was. But because Pitts did (IMO) such a horrible job blocking a LB, Vonta had to run closer to White than he should have. Slaton following had to do the same. But Vonta got brushed by #90, because he had to run so close. Vonta was still able to put a great block on the SAM, who would have been the only one stopping Slaton from reaching the endzone.

We scored a touchdown because Vonta Leach is a bad ass..... PERIOD.

What I want to point out here, is that we all look at Chester Pitts as our best offensive lineman. & he gets tossed like a Ragdoll.

ZB is supposed to be about blocking the guy that crosses your face, then proceed to the second level. But we didn't do that either. Briesel got locked up on Kevin Williams, and he couldn't get off. Granted Williams is a pro bowler.... but it doesn't look like he even tried to pass him off to Winston.

The MLB shot through the gap, and missed Slaton by a hair. We shouldn't be relying on the MLB to get through our line, and miss our tailback by a hair. Briesel should have got off his block, and took out the MLB. Chris White even pointed him out twice.

We've got another formation, a defensive mismatch, with two WRs to the left, and only one CB, and we don't adjust.

Preseason I know. But I thought this is when we're supposed to be identifying & addressing these problems.

To see this in the third preseason game, makes me question if our offense is ready for Sept 13.Again, I see this play a differently. It was a great call that resulted in a TD. With great execution by the players.

I will elaborate soon.

Texaninlild
09-11-2009, 11:43 AM
I am more worried about every opponents running game. :yikes:

Blake
09-11-2009, 11:45 AM
I am worried about the economy. I am worried about the environment. I am worried about our government.

I am NOT worried about our running game.

We have all 5 starters back on the oline. They did a fantastic job all last season blocking for Slaton. And now we add a healthy Chris Brown. Not to mention we still have the same QB, receiving core, and fullback. The last thing I am worried about is the running game.

Now the defense on the other hand... lol.

76Texan
09-11-2009, 11:52 AM
Here's another play, that most of us would look at as a success.

3:42 left in the second half. 2nd & 3 from the 4 yard line. We're lined up in the I, twins to the left, strong side to the right. Again, the defense lines up in a basic 4-3 formation, with one cornerback on each side. The slot receiver is Davis, covered by the WILL. He motions behind our OL, the Will moves to above our tackle, the other LBs shift accordingly.

We've got another formation, a defensive mismatch, with two WRs to the left, and only one CB, and we don't adjust.

1. They have a CB, a safety, the WILL, and other guys ready to shift if we went with a pass.

The CB used that shuffle technique, and he was actually on the outside shoulder of AJ. That took away the fade route to the corner... also turned any passing play toward the middle (supposedly crowding the field further).
But that also means he is way far away from the running play.
AJ came in and block the safety. So they gave us a one man advantage in blocking there.

2. By motioning A.D. all the way to the right, we kept the LCB at bay, and required the safety on that side to pay attention as well, creating doubt.

Wolf6151
09-11-2009, 11:58 AM
I see the problem as being the fact that our O-line is woefully thin and inadequate. We don't have quality talented starters or backups. Myers and Brisiel should be backups not starters, Pitts is average at best, and Studdard should be buying a ticket to the game like we do. I would love to see next years draft concentrate heavily on the secondary and O-line with multiple picks in each area.

76Texan
09-11-2009, 12:06 PM
Chris White took on their back up DT, #90. And does an okay job blocking him. He doesn't give up any ground, but he doesn't push him too far off the line either.

Briesel takes on Kevin Williams, and does about the same job.

The MLB shoots through the little gap between White & Briesel. He misses Slaton by a hair.

Winston comes in to help Briesel. Doesn't really look like he's doing much, as he doesn't move him anywhere.

ZB is supposed to be about blocking the guy that crosses your face, then proceed to the second level. But we didn't do that either. Briesel got locked up on Kevin Williams, and he couldn't get off. Granted Williams is a pro bowler.... but it doesn't look like he even tried to pass him off to Winston.

The MLB shot through the gap, and missed Slaton by a hair. We shouldn't be relying on the MLB to get through our line, and miss our tailback by a hair. Briesel should have got off his block, and took out the MLB. Chris White even pointed him out twice.


And this is the beauty of the play.
We actually had Brisiel and Winston in a double team on Kevin Williams.
This create the illusion that this is the P.O.A.
It froze the SS and fooled the MLB who sliced in between the feet of White and Brisiel. He wasn't close to Slaton 'cause our lightning back' ultimate goal always was to cut to the weak side.

It would be a run somewhere around LG (Pitts).

We had only 9 to block 11.
But we ended up with one-on-one blocking at the true P.O.A.

CloakNNNdagger
09-11-2009, 12:16 PM
I am worried about the economy. I am worried about the environment. I am worried about our government.

I am NOT worried about our running game.

We have all 5 starters back on the oline. They did a fantastic job all last season blocking for Slaton. And now we add a healthy Chris Brown. Not to mention we still have the same QB, receiving core, and fullback. The last thing I am worried about is the running game.

Now the defense on the other hand... lol.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:m9mACAuInhCPSM:http://gi63.photobucket.com/groups/h133/85G5D4DC1C/alfred_e_neuman.jpg

badboy
09-11-2009, 12:19 PM
To me it does not matter which offense or offensive play (run or pass, yardage,etc) we are in blocking is blocking and tackling is tackling. Too frequently our blocking is "deflecting". What I mean by that is that blocking to me is driving through the torso (not the lower leg block I often see) or engaging the opponent by stopping the opponent's flow to the ball carrier or QB. Texans brush block or "hand check" an opponent with poor success. The ZBS we use is set up to "move" an opponent away from the direction of the ball carrier often to be engaged by another Texans blocker. The danger of this is when the opponent does not get "moved". The type of lineman as we know that is best suited is a quicker of foot with good lateral movement and foot adjustment, usually this is a "smaller" size OL man. If things are done correctly and the opponent is simply not a better man on that play, yards are gained. Here is where it becomes interesting. Once the O lineman moves to 2nd level he continues to block the same way & often the tackler has a good chance of avoiding the "delecting" block. Rarely do I see our guy in the second level try to block through the opponent or even stand him up to halt the progress of the would be tackler. I can expect to see that from Slaton blocking a huge LB or a safety but not a 300 pounder blocking a smaller D man.

Tackling is similar as we too often do not see clean "knock them on their butt" or wrap up the knees and or ankle tackles. Even a sideline tackle should not be a push 'em down or push 'em across the sideline marker. If contact is going to be made it should be a take 'em off their feet tackle--always. I think it is habit forming to allow a player to push or "run" a player out of bounds. It might work but might not.

Even more so than decreasing Texan turn overs, I want to see sound blocking and tackling. Everything else, excepting injuries will take care of itself.

76Texan
09-11-2009, 12:19 PM
At the snap, the OL moves forward. Except Brown, who swings left, to take on Will Allen. He does a good job of keeping him away from the play. Looks almost effortless, letting Allen arc around him.

Chester Pitts attacks the WILL, who sheds Pitts with a simple sidestep to his left. Pitts actually does a flip, and lands on his butt. The WILL does lunge at Slaton, but misses. Now a Houston fan would probably say Chester did a good job. That he did enough to keep the WILL from making the play.

Chris White took on their back up DT, #90. And does an okay job blocking him. He doesn't give up any ground, but he doesn't push him too far off the line either.

Vonta Leach leads the way between Pitts & White. That's where the biggest hole was. But because Pitts did (IMO) such a horrible job blocking a LB, Vonta had to run closer to White than he should have. Slaton following had to do the same. But Vonta got brushed by #90, because he had to run so close. Vonta was still able to put a great block on the SAM, who would have been the only one stopping Slaton from reaching the endzone.

We scored a touchdown because Vonta Leach is a bad ass..... PERIOD.

What I want to point out here, is that we all look at Chester Pitts as our best offensive lineman. & he gets tossed like a Ragdoll.

To create this running lane, Pitts was the lead man.
As it was, the WILL wanted to go wide, toward D.Brown, so Pitts let him be.
True, he could do a better job hanging onto him a little longer.
He was far from 100% to start with, but we also does not know of his true intention. If a defender wants to move away from the POA, I say let him be.

But I also think because of the FS and RCB, this run was meant to be inside LG (as to be further away from the defense as much as possible).

White did a good enough job on the RDT.
Leach came up and make sure the RDT didn't slide sideway.
Then he took on the SAM who came from the strong side and did not have a good angle.
Leach did well by not leaving White too early.
Together, the formed a nice wall on the right side.

D.Brown and Pitts formed the wall on the left side.

Even without AJ blocking on the FS, Slaton had enough room and time to get there.

Great execution by the players.
(Though some might want Pitts to look prettier in his block. But I had observed several times before. I don't care how they block, as long it's efficient. The goal is to score a TD, not to win Ms America's pageant!) http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

76Texan
09-11-2009, 12:23 PM
Even more so than decreasing Texan turnovers, I want to see sound blocking and tackling. Everything else, excepting injuries will take care of itself.
I know, I know... they can all do better.
But on the other hand, we're not playing against H.S. teams.
The other guys are capable of making us look bad just as we make them look bad!

thunderkyss
09-11-2009, 12:47 PM
Again, I see this play a differently. It was a great call that resulted in a TD. With great execution by the players.

I will elaborate soon.

Chester Pitts being flipped like a rag doll by a linebacker is "great execution by the players"

You've identified the pitiful cut blocks just like I did. You see Briesel in the running lane, with no cut back lane, just like I did. We're identifying the same problems, but you're not seeing anything to worry about.

Chris Johnson was on Slaton's heels for rookie rushing sensation. He got shut out last night. So did Lendale White. Against a great defense no doubt, but I kept seeing the words sophomore slump in the game threads..... as if Slaton isn't headed for the same thing. & when I see our OL performing as poorly as they have, making mistakes they shouldn't be..... that's all I see for Slaton.

Right now, our run game is Leach & Slaton, and that's not going to be good enough.

Nothing we can do about it, I know. Might as well not talk about it right?

76Texan
09-11-2009, 01:10 PM
Chester Pitts being flipped like a rag doll by a linebacker is "great execution by the players"

You've identified the pitiful cut blocks just like I did. You see Briesel in the running lane, with no cut back lane, just like I did. We're identifying the same problems, but you're not seeing anything to worry about.

Chris Johnson was on Slaton's heels for rookie rushing sensation. He got shut out last night. So did Lendale White. Against a great defense no doubt, but I kept seeing the words sophomore slump in the game threads..... as if Slaton isn't headed for the same thing. & when I see our OL performing as poorly as they have, making mistakes they shouldn't be..... that's all I see for Slaton.

Right now, our run game is Leach & Slaton, and that's not going to be good enough.

Nothing we can do about it, I know. Might as well not talk about it right?
Hey, we scored a running TD in the redzone with Pitts at about 70% or less (according to him as I listened to one of his interviews).

It's the PS.

Chris White was getting his feet wet, but as he went along, I feel much more comfortable with him as a backup. I don't know if he can develop into a starter or not, but it gives us more options in the future.

Myers, White or Caldwell, in the long term, one of them stand a chance of developing further into a solid starter. The situation is better than at this time last year when I wished we had resigned McKinney for one year at the cheap (when Weary was not able to play) just to be sure in case Brisiel doesn't pan out.

Brisiel still needs to improve, but again, if he doesn't, we also have options.

If we stay as healthy as last season (or close to it), I like our chance.
But of course, we all want all the guys to improve.
And on that note, seeing D.Brown progress has got to make us fans feel better.

I'm not sure whether Slaton lose some of his explosiveness with the extra bulk or not. Too few game tapes to really determine it.
Certainly, he also needs time to adjust himself on the playing field with the addl' weight.

It's better than seeing C.Johnson's speed couldn't get around the corner on the Steelers. Knock on wood.

badboy
09-11-2009, 04:16 PM
I know, I know... they can all do better.
But on the other hand, we're not playing against H.S. teams.
The other guys are capable of making us look bad just as we make them look bad!How does the opponent make a Texan perform a poor block or tackle? Let's put the blame where it goes. If we get beat on a play or a game and are doing our best, cool beans. That's why I've posted good play means more to me than a sloppy win. Most fans disagree. I just don't see myself bragging how we slipped by and got a W but looked liked my old junior high team. It does matter to me. Sports is about competition not winning. You beat up your sister and I beat up Chuck Norris (hahah) who accomplished more? Of course, I don't know your sister. She may be tougher than Norris but that's my POV. Anyway, spring training is ove and football is here. One way or another.

DocBar
09-11-2009, 04:29 PM
How does the opponent make a Texan perform a poor block or tackle? Let's put the blame where it goes. If we get beat on a play or a game and are doing our best, cool beans. That's why I've posted good play means more to me than a sloppy win. Most fans disagree. I just don't see myself bragging how we slipped by and got a W but looked liked my old junior high team. It does matter to me. Sports is about competition not winning. You beat up your sister and I beat up Chuck Norris (hahah) who accomplished more? Of course, I don't know your sister. She may be tougher than Norris but that's my POV. Anyway, spring training is ove and football is here. One way or another.
A superior talent on the other side of the ball is how they can make our guys look bad. Lots of NFL OL's have looked bad against the Vikes, Ravens, etc. As for poor tackling, I think that is actually taught at the NFL level. We would get run off the team for making most of the "tackles" players make these days. I believe in the old adage," if winning doesn't count, why keep score?" I'll take a win anyway I can get it, but I prefer it to be a dominant win, not a squeaker.

76Texan
09-11-2009, 04:36 PM
How does the opponent make a Texan perform a poor block or tackle? Let's put the blame where it goes. If we get beat on a play or a game and are doing our best, cool beans. That's why I've posted good play means more to me than a sloppy win. Most fans disagree. I just don't see myself bragging how we slipped by and got a W but looked liked my old junior high team. It does matter to me. Sports is about competition not winning. You beat up your sister and I beat up Chuck Norris (hahah) who accomplished more? Of course, I don't know your sister. She may be tougher than Norris but that's my POV. Anyway, spring training is ove and football is here. One way or another.

Both you and docbar have valid points.

Remember, in my review thread, I always put the blow-up where it was (I hate the term "blame"!)

But I have seen Pro-Bowlers and All-Pros made to look bad by a good play from an opponent.

And then, there are examples like Brisiel couldn't get to the outside shoulder of the DT he was to block to give Chris White a chance to help with the double team. But then again, we also need to remember that the DT was moving toward the playside; that makes it hard for Brisiel to get there.

The DT made Brisiel look bad, pushing him back more than 2 yds behind the LOS. But those things happen. You go on to the next play!

76Texan
09-11-2009, 04:42 PM
A superior talent on the other side of the ball is how they can make our guys look bad. Lots of NFL OL's have looked bad against the Vikes, Ravens, etc. As for poor tackling, I think that is actually taught at the NFL level. We would get run off the team for making most of the "tackles" players make these days. I believe in the old adage," if winning doesn't count, why keep score?" I'll take a win anyway I can get it, but I prefer it to be a dominant win, not a squeaker.

Also, on the other hand, sometimes the O-line can make a RB look good when it creates a huge running lane that Fat Albert can walk thru.

Sometimes, the RB can make the O-line look good by bursting thru the tiniest of daylight!

It's a team game. We need as many guys executing on a certain play as possible!

thunderkyss
09-11-2009, 08:59 PM
Both you and docbar have valid points.

Remember, in my review thread, I always put the blow-up where it was (I hate the term "blame"!)

But I have seen Pro-Bowlers and All-Pros made to look bad by a good play from an opponent.

And then, there are examples like Brisiel couldn't get to the outside shoulder of the DT he was to block to give Chris White a chance to help with the double team. But then again, we also need to remember that the DT was moving toward the playside; that makes it hard for Brisiel to get there.

The DT made Brisiel look bad, pushing him back more than 2 yds behind the LOS. But those things happen. You go on to the next play!

Briesel stood him up. There was no movement backwards at all. Chris White came in & hit Williams, making him move to the right. As they moved to the right, Briesel got tripped up on Vonta & Winfields feet... that's how they got into the backfield. That DT didn't do anything to make Briesel look bad.

Our guys, Winston, Brown, & White wasting their time at the second level, or inability to get to the second level is why that play failed.

If Vonta is not there, Briesel continues to stretch the LOS to the right, like he's supposed to.

The biggest "blow-up" on that play, is Pitts lying on his belly with a back-up DT leap-frogging over him, taking away the cutback lane that should be there.

Those are the things we need to be working on, not Briesel blocking his guy.

Pitts with a sorry block. I'll say it again, because I don't think it's sunk in yet. But it was the back-up, the second string DT that made Chester Pitts (our best offensive lineman) look like a punk.

Duane Brown couldn't get to the LB, That's why we got him, so he could get to the LB and create running lanes. That's what we need to work on.

Winston couldn't get off the line. The play is going to the right. He should have been moving with Briesel so as not to be clipped. He should have been able to chip the DE, then get to the LB, so Slaton would have had some where to run.

White actually did a decent job putting a block on a LB, I just wish he was a little more mean about it.

gafftop
09-11-2009, 09:57 PM
Probably not too many remember Robert Neuhouse with the Houston Cougars. When he first began in college he was small and quick. When he left college he was still quick. With Dallas he bulked up and became not so quick, slow. I hope Slaton is not headed down this road. That one step means getting through the hole or not. We haven't seen enough in preseason to know for sure, Sunday will tell us if the added weight is good or bad.

The Pencil Neck
09-11-2009, 11:21 PM
Probably not too many remember Robert Neuhouse with the Houston Cougars. When he first began in college he was small and quick. When he left college he was still quick. With Dallas he bulked up and became not so quick, slow. I hope Slaton is not headed down this road. That one step means getting through the hole or not. We haven't seen enough in preseason to know for sure, Sunday will tell us if the added weight is good or bad.

Robert Newhouse RAWKED!

infantrycak
09-12-2009, 09:35 AM
Probably not too many remember Robert Neuhouse with the Houston Cougars. When he first began in college he was small and quick. When he left college he was still quick. With Dallas he bulked up and became not so quick, slow. I hope Slaton is not headed down this road. That one step means getting through the hole or not. We haven't seen enough in preseason to know for sure, Sunday will tell us if the added weight is good or bad.

Newhouse was an entirely different kind of cat. He was quick in short space and became a power back. It would be more akin to Domanick Davis adding weight to his short legged frame. He never was going to bust one for 77 yds but he became harder to take down for less than 3.

thunderkyss
09-13-2009, 07:39 PM
This is our second running play from the Jets game. 13:37 left in the 1st Qtr. 3rd &1 on our 29 yard line.

We're lined up in the I, Chris Brown is the Tail Back. Strong side to the left, both receivers lined up close on the weak side.

The Jets line up 4 men with their hand on the ground. Jenkins is not the nose. Instead he's lined up on Pitts. A SLB is lined up over OD. The LCB is behind him. 2 LBs over our guards. Leonard, the safety is lined up on AJ. Revis is out there to "help" I guess.

At the snap, the line moves left.
Except Winston, he goes straight for the WLB. He dives for his feet. Lands maybe 6 inches in front of him. The WLB has no trouble getting around him, barely breaks stride getting to the LOS. This is one of the reasons there is no cut back lane.

Eric Winston is a fan favorite.

Chris Myers gets to the MLB 4 yards past the LOS. He puts a helmet on him and drives him another 3 or 4 yards out of the way. This is part of the reason there is a running lane.

Chris Myers gets no love from Houston fans.

Andre Davis runs in, and lays himself at the feet of the RDE. The RDE can't get to the play, but it's not because of Davis' block.

Briesel puts his helmet in Jenkins' thighs. He & Pitts does a fairly good job of taking Jenkins out of the play. Briesel, Pitts, Jenkins create a pile that keeps the rest of the defense off Brown.

Brown's first step was left. But the man in front of him went to his right. Brown is stood up, and the DE is working his way back to the play, when he is greated by Vonta Leach.

Chris Brown has to get skinny to avoid Leach, & run between that block & Pitts. #91 who was basically unblocked, but trying to get around Briesel, Pitts, Jenkins gets a hand on CB. If not, that would have been a much bigger gain.

Duane Brown is lucky he isn't called for a hold. His hands are definitely outside the DEs frame, and he's trying to pull him away.

Owen Daniels might as well not even be out there.

AJ does IMO a poor job on the safety, basically pushing him into the play. even if he didn't, Revis & their other safety is right there to make the play.

Now I obviously don't know how this ZBS is supposed to go. But a few observations I don't think is quite right... the piss poor block Eric Winston puts on, looks like the piss poor block I mentioned Pitts made against the Vikings, and it looks like the Piss poor block Andre Davis made on this play. Looks like somebody is teaching them how to block piss poorly. I can't imagine why any one would do such a thing.... but the evidence is there.

Another thing, OD, Duane Brown, Chester Pitts.... don't look like they were on the same page with the rest of the team. Everything we've heard about the ZBS, says the first step is the same, for all linemen. But while the rest of the line looks to be stretching the play to the left.... OD, Brown, & Pitts look like they are making a stand on the left side of the line. I could see making a stand on the right side of the line, with the left side moving to the left.... that would open a hole. But here, everything on the right side of the line, was pushed into a pile that was started by Pitts.

My previous breakdowns of pre-season running, was simply to identify problems with our running game. They've had two weeks to fix the problems I saw... but they didn't. So then I ask, what were they working on? This isn't a new system, and I'm quite frankly ashamed that we make these mistakes when it counts.

I'm not of the fire Kubiak club... but these mistakes, and once again our pathetic opening day showing makes it easy to see why the club was chartered.

badboy
09-14-2009, 12:56 PM
Both you and docbar have valid points.

Remember, in my review thread, I always put the blow-up where it was (I hate the term "blame"!)

But I have seen Pro-Bowlers and All-Pros made to look bad by a good play from an opponent.

And then, there are examples like Brisiel couldn't get to the outside shoulder of the DT he was to block to give Chris White a chance to help with the double team. But then again, we also need to remember that the DT was moving toward the playside; that makes it hard for Brisiel to get there.

The DT made Brisiel look bad, pushing him back more than 2 yds behind the LOS. But those things happen. You go on to the next play!I wasn't talking about an occasional play that our guy gets beat. It is interesting to read my post at #38 and then realize how this game turned out. I quit counting the missed blocks and poor tackles before half time. What a sorry, sorry effort.