PDA

View Full Version : Isn't this what you asked for?


barrett
09-01-2009, 04:25 PM
I re watched the first half. I want to comment on some positives but it's not going to be heard by this traumatized fan base.

In the shadow of another pre-season loss was a defense doing exactly what everybody on this board was begging for since, I dunno at least 2007:

rush the passer check. consistent pressure (2 sacks) throughout the first half.

more aggressive attitude guys flying to the ball. laying people out. picking fights etc.

more disguised defenses guys faking blitzes 9-10 guys on the ball but only rushing four or five or six.. you don't know. snap it. find out.

more blitzing. effective blitzing check. Ryans had a sack unabated, Adibi had a clean shot on the QB. Quin was even in on a blitz.

"Did the defense over shoot some gaps? Did I see some sloppy tackling? You bet." thanks Gary now back to my point.

This defense is more risky than what we've seen in the last few years. They are going to give up some big plays but they are going to make some big plays too. I think that is exactly what I saw from them on Monday. I know everyone is panicking. I know, I know... we're never ever gonna be good. That's how you think when you're abused.

I'm concerned about the tackling too. I'm disappointed in Okoye too. I think Wilson played poorly too. But I see lots of things to be excited about too.

And I will refrain from fully passing judgment until I've seen a regular season game. I'm excited.

Cjeremy635
09-01-2009, 04:32 PM
I re watched the first half. I want to comment on some positives but it's not going to be heard by this traumatized fan base.

In the shadow of another pre-season loss was a defense doing exactly what everybody on this board was begging for since, I dunno at least 2007:

rush the passer check. consistent pressure (2 sacks) throughout the first half.

more aggressive attitude guys flying to the ball. laying people out. picking fights etc.

more disguised defenses guys faking blitzes 9-10 guys on the ball but only rushing four or five or six.. you don't know. snap it. find out.

more blitzing. effective blitzing check. Ryans had a sack unabated, Adibi had a clean shot on the QB. Quin was even in on a blitz.

"Did the defense over shoot some gaps? Did I see some sloppy tackling? You bet." thanks Gary now back to my point.

This defense is more risky than what we've seen in the last few years. They are going to give up some big plays but they are going to make some big plays too. I think that is exactly what I saw from them on Monday. I know everyone is panicking. I know, I know... we're never ever gonna be good. That's how you think when you're abused.

I'm concerned about the tackling too. I'm disappointed in Okoye too. I think Wilson played poorly too. But I see lots of things to be excited about too.

And I will refrain from fully passing judgment until I've seen a regular season game. I'm excited.


This is the first post game comment on today that I've responded to. I agree with you 100%.

El Tejano
09-01-2009, 04:38 PM
This defense is more risky than what we've seen in the last few years. They are going to give up some big plays but they are going to make some big plays too. I think that is exactly what I saw from them on Monday. I know everyone is panicking. I know, I know... we're never ever gonna be good. That's how you think when you're abused.

I'm concerned about the tackling too. I'm disappointed in Okoye too. I think Wilson played poorly too. But I see lots of things to be excited about too.

And I will refrain from fully passing judgment until I've seen a regular season game. I'm excited.


You know, you are right. Perhaps we are so used to not having an agressive defense that we don't know how to understand that most aggressive defenses give up a big play here and there. I think it was more of the fact that we were just coming off the Saints game that looked pathetic and then the first play of the game give up that big Adrian Peterson run.

For me it was also the fact that Chris Brown was our most effective runner and that Matt Schaub got hurt.

AnthonyE
09-01-2009, 04:47 PM
I re watched the first half. I want to comment on some positives but it's not going to be heard by this traumatized fan base.

In the shadow of another pre-season loss was a defense doing exactly what everybody on this board was begging for since, I dunno at least 2007:

rush the passer check. consistent pressure (2 sacks) throughout the first half.

more aggressive attitude guys flying to the ball. laying people out. picking fights etc.

more disguised defenses guys faking blitzes 9-10 guys on the ball but only rushing four or five or six.. you don't know. snap it. find out.

more blitzing. effective blitzing check. Ryans had a sack unabated, Adibi had a clean shot on the QB. Quin was even in on a blitz.

"Did the defense over shoot some gaps? Did I see some sloppy tackling? You bet." thanks Gary now back to my point.

This defense is more risky than what we've seen in the last few years. They are going to give up some big plays but they are going to make some big plays too. I think that is exactly what I saw from them on Monday. I know everyone is panicking. I know, I know... we're never ever gonna be good. That's how you think when you're abused.

I'm concerned about the tackling too. I'm disappointed in Okoye too. I think Wilson played poorly too. But I see lots of things to be excited about too.

And I will refrain from fully passing judgment until I've seen a regular season game. I'm excited.

Yay for posts that make sense! This is exactly how I feel after this loss. If yesterday was September 13, then I would be a bit more concerned. I saw a defense that was trying to make a play. Almost every play I saw multiple Texans by the ball (unlike previous seasons...). Although they didn't do much to make sure the ballcarrier didn't get past them, the fact that they were there was satisfying to me. I'd say our defense now is 10x better than the one we saw on the field last year.

barrett
09-01-2009, 04:55 PM
We're not an elite defense. We need to improve our tackling. Obviously the run defense isn't as good as you want it to be. Some of our players are underachieving. Some of them are overachieving. It's a better coached defense in so many ways I don't even want to go into them all. This defense is creating pressure. This defense is going to be harder to beat than ANYTHING the Texans have put on the field in years. Go back and watch some of the stunting on the front four. Mario's sack is nuts. He attacks the LT. When he doesn't get immediate pressure he turns and runs all the way around the pocket to sack the quarterback who is slowed by Antonio Smith swatting the ball while being blanketed by the RT.

I'm not saying the Texans D is good. I'm saying it's better. And as long as it continues to improve it's a positive.

It's a turned corner. That's not a moral victory. That's a fact.

dc_txtech
09-01-2009, 05:17 PM
I was actually expecting to see a lot more posts like this today. I was pretty stoked to see our defense blitzing effectively.

Hardcore Texan
09-01-2009, 05:19 PM
I liked some of the things I saw on defense as well, lots to work on sure but it was nice seeing them apply some pressure to a good OL.

76Texan
09-01-2009, 05:29 PM
We're not an elite defense. We need to improve our tackling. Obviously the run defense isn't as good as you want it to be. Some of our players are underachieving. Some of them are overachieving. It's a better coached defense in so many ways I don't even want to go into them all. This defense is creating pressure. This defense is going to be harder to beat than ANYTHING the Texans have put on the field in years. Go back and watch some of the stunting on the front four. Mario's sack is nuts. He attacks the LT. When he doesn't get immediate pressure he turns and runs all the way around the pocket to sack the quarterback who is slowed by Antonio Smith swatting the ball while being blanketed by the RT.

I'm not saying the Texans D is good. I'm saying it's better. And as long as it continues to improve it's a positive.

It's a turned corner. That's not a moral victory. That's a fact.

I hate to derail a thread, so should I just let this slide, Barrett? http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

We didn't stop them hardly, ya know.
They stopped themselves in the other 4 possessions they didn't score a TD in the first half!
I wouldn't say that giving up 17 points is better than what we did to the Titans and the Browns last year.

HOU-TEX
09-01-2009, 05:29 PM
Meh, I ain't drinkin the Kool-aid yet. I a lot of good things and a lot of bad things. I enjoyed watching a few different looks by the D, but if a player fails his gap assignment....well, we've seen what happens....twice.

Call me spoiled if you must, but I want my defense solid against both the run and the pass. So far, it seems as if we made the run defense worse (if that's possible) while improving the pass rush.

We'll see what happens when the Jets come to town in order to see the entire scheme laid out on the field. That way there will be no excuses if we continue to get gashed.

The Pencil Neck
09-01-2009, 05:32 PM
I've been saying this since last night.

I was pleasantly surprised by last night's performance.

76Texan
09-01-2009, 05:35 PM
Meh, I ain't drinkin the Kool-aid yet. I a lot of good things and a lot of bad things. I enjoyed watching a few different looks by the D, but if a player fails his gap assignment....well, we've seen what happens....twice.

Call me spoiled if you must, but I want my defense solid against both the run and the pass. So far, it seems as if we made the run defense worse (if that's possible) while improving the pass rush.

We'll see what happens when the Jets come to town in order to see the entire scheme laid out on the field. That way there will be no excuses if we continue to get gashed.
I can't say that our pass rush had improved.
That sack by Mario was due to a hold by Adibi on the receiver that didn't allow Favre to go there.

The second sack (by Demeco) was not a disguise at all.
He had shown blitz in that gap. And Quin had shown blitz on the edge as well.
Adrian Peterson just missed his blocking assignment and chose to take on Quin (whom the LT would take on).
You can see Favre talking to him (Peterson) afterward.

76Texan
09-01-2009, 05:47 PM
Harvin dropped a sure catch that would have been a TD in the end zone.

He also squatted on a third-down route just short of the marker that stopped another of their drives.

So really, we didn't stop them at all. Sorry to say that! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

Mike Kerns
09-01-2009, 05:52 PM
Good take, Barret. I hadn't really even thought about it that way yet.

ReliantTexan
09-01-2009, 06:12 PM
I can't say that our pass rush had improved.
That sack by Mario was due to a hold by Adibi on the receiver that didn't allow Favre to go there.

The second sack (by Demeco) was not a disguise at all.
He had shown blitz in that gap. And Quin had shown blitz on the edge as well.
Adrian Peterson just missed his blocking assignment and chose to take on Quin (whom the LT would take on).
You can see Favre talking to him (Peterson) afterward. The pass rush was much better. I don't see how you can come to the that conclusion, when we had 4 sacks last night (2 on favre),also having I believe it was 3 or 4 more hits on him, and multiple hurries. And it wouldn't have mattered even if Peterson would have taken on Demeco because Favre would have been sacked anyway by Mario who was coming in from the edge.

Texan JBZ
09-01-2009, 06:15 PM
Harvin dropped a sure catch that would have been a TD in the end zone.

He also squatted on a third-down route just short of the marker that stopped another of their drives.

So really, we didn't stop them at all. Sorry to say that! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

I keep hearing that Harvin dropped the pass from Favre. He didn't drop that pass. It was just out of the reach of his fingertips. McCain had pretty decent coverage on him that play.

thunderkyss
09-01-2009, 06:31 PM
I keep hearing that Harvin dropped the pass from Favre. He didn't drop that pass. It was just out of the reach of his fingertips. McCain had pretty decent coverage on him that play.

Bull.... Farve threw it too far. If he & Harvin were on the same page, that's a TD, and our corner couldn't do anything about it. It wasn't on Harvin.... McCain was beat.... that one was on Farve.

But...... I agree for the most part, that we showed promise. I remember at least twice, where we dropped their running backs for a loss. I remember a coverage sack, which I've never seen, we had good pressure on the QB, for the most part.

Pantherstang84
09-01-2009, 06:40 PM
I keep hearing that Harvin dropped the pass from Favre. He didn't drop that pass. It was just out of the reach of his fingertips. McCain had pretty decent coverage on him that play.

Yeah. It was like 3 feet in front of him. Clearly not a drop. But hey. Why should the truth make any difference in here?

Pantherstang84
09-01-2009, 06:41 PM
Bull.... Farve threw it too far. If he & Harvin were on the same page, that's a TD, and our corner couldn't do anything about it. It wasn't on Harvin.... McCain was beat.... that one was on Farve.

But...... I agree for the most part, that we showed promise. I remember at least twice, where we dropped their running backs for a loss. I remember a coverage sack, which I've never seen, we had good pressure on the QB, for the most part.

And if Orlovsky and AJ had been on the same page on the overthrows...

76Texan
09-01-2009, 06:51 PM
Bull.... Farve threw it too far. If he & Harvin were on the same page, that's a TD, and our corner couldn't do anything about it. It wasn't on Harvin.... McCain was beat.... that one was on Farve.

But...... I agree for the most part, that we showed promise. I remember at least twice, where we dropped their running backs for a loss. I remember a coverage sack, which I've never seen, we had good pressure on the QB, for the most part.

Jon Gruden: "Brett Favre threw the ball perfectly to the back corner of the end zone. Percin Harvin just has to make that catch."

The ball was right in his hands!

prostock101
09-01-2009, 06:52 PM
I really have to agree I saw the defense act differently at the snap. Stunts and fakes and just overall more aggresvive. I'll take it. I watched Baltimore's defense the other night and wow, they are just all over the place. Our guys last night were at least bouncing around and not just standing in the same place every snap.

However, I think we need to ignore contract amounts and rookie learning curves and just bite the bullet on the D-line. Move Smith inside and make Barwin the starter.

Double Barrel
09-01-2009, 06:53 PM
I saw some positives to give the fans hope, but the horrible tackling is indicative of failing at fundamentals. That is unacceptable, but, it was just a glorified practice, so no need to wring hands at this point. Sept. 13 is the real test of this D.

76Texan
09-01-2009, 07:09 PM
The pass rush was much better. I don't see how you can come to the that conclusion, when we had 4 sacks last night (2 on favre),also having I believe it was 3 or 4 more hits on him, and multiple hurries. And it wouldn't have mattered even if Peterson would have taken on Demeco because Favre would have been sacked anyway by Mario who was coming in from the edge.
I don't see how you can come to that conclusion when you count the 2 sacks by Zgonina in the 4th quarter against scrubs! Like that will happen in the regular season.

Sure, you're correct that Mario would have gotten there instead of Demeco, and that still means (Pressure = Mario).
I fail to see the improvement.
(Yes I know what Demeco and Adibi can do.)

What I want to see is pressure from Antonio Smith and Okoye and whoever they put in at NT (in this case it's Cody) if you know what I mean

Pantherstang84
09-01-2009, 07:21 PM
Jon Gruden: "Brett Favre threw the ball perfectly to the back corner of the end zone. Percin Harvin just has to make that catch."

The ball was right in his hands!

No it wasn't! Gruden was speaking to the fact that Harvin pulled up a little expecting a flag for pass interference. Please don't ignore the truth just so it will fit your argument. IT WAS NOT A DROP! DID NOT EVEN HIT HIS HANDS!

ReliantTexan
09-01-2009, 07:32 PM
I don't see how you can come to that conclusion when you count the 2 sacks by Zgonina in the 4th quarter against scrubs! Like that will happen in the regular season.

Sure, you're correct that Mario would have gotten there instead of Demeco, and that still means (Pressure = Mario).
I fail to see the improvement.
(Yes I know what Demeco and Adibi can do.)

What I want to see is pressure from Antonio Smith and Okoye and whoever they put in at NT (in this case it's Cody) if you know what I meanThere was some pressure from Okoye and Smith, Okoye forced Favre out of the pocket when the vikes were backed up near their endzone, even though it was a completion there was still pressure. There was a third down incompletion from Favre that was a result from pressure up the middle from Okoye. Mario got his sack because Smith nearly stripped the ball from favre, giving Mario enough time to get there.

Jackie Chiles
09-01-2009, 07:37 PM
Just rewatched most of the first half and there were a lot of things to like and a lot of things we need to get fixed.

Defensively I like the schemes that we were running, there were a lot of plays we put ourselves in position to make but we just didn't. Antonio Smith and Zach Diles both had Peterson dead in the backfield but couldn't make the tackle. Part of that is on them but most is because Peterson is just nasty. I have been disappointed in the play of Adibi this entire preseason and he had a bad game last night. He has about a 1 big play 4 bad play ratio going. I still like him but he needs to be more disciplined and wrap some guys up. Another guy that I have been underwhelmed with is Fred Bennet. When Jacque went down I thought Fred would give him a run for his money for that starting spot opposite Dunta. So far he hasn't been a factor and I am starting to wonder if his rookie season was a fluke. Even though the rushing numbers look similar to the Saints game our line played better. They didn't play great but they didn't get blown up like last week, not even close. I can't wait to get Cushing and Dunta in there, I think those two guys are going to be very nice upgrades at their respective spots. Overall we are going to give up our share of big plays but I will be surprised if we don't rank better in the end of year defensive rankings than we have in the past, I would wager we will be at or just under 20th in yards/scoring. I was hoping we could jump a bit higher and there is certainly a chance we still can but the preseason has tempered my expectations there.

Offensively we just seemed out of sync the whole game. Minnesota's front seven is as good as it gets for a 4-3 team and we have to play clean football to have a chance. We did for one drive. On Schaub's first sack there was a ton of pressure up the middle and I want to put a lot of that on Slaton, he seemed indecisive on which guy to pick up and Schaub paid the price. Duane looked like a totally different player than last year. He still gets beat but his athleticism is evident on his recovery. I did not see that from him much last year, if he got beat our only chance was a quick pass. He was my biggest question mark for the offense coming in and I am pleased with him. Slaton hasn't looked like himself but he has a nice resume and I am not as worried about him as some on the boards are.

Lastly I have to say I have been thoroughly impressed with the competition these last two games. I was pretty high on both teams coming into the season but after seeing them live I think those are two very talented NFC teams that could make a lot of noise in the playoffs. This doesn't excuse our suspect play but if we play like we did last night against a team that doesn't have Adrian Peterson at RB the results would be much prettier. Still, I expect our guys to step up and be ready for the opener.

bckey
09-01-2009, 07:41 PM
I re watched the first half. I want to comment on some positives but it's not going to be heard by this traumatized fan base.

In the shadow of another pre-season loss was a defense doing exactly what everybody on this board was begging for since, I dunno at least 2007:

rush the passer check. consistent pressure (2 sacks) throughout the first half.

more aggressive attitude guys flying to the ball. laying people out. picking fights etc.

more disguised defenses guys faking blitzes 9-10 guys on the ball but only rushing four or five or six.. you don't know. snap it. find out.

more blitzing. effective blitzing check. Ryans had a sack unabated, Adibi had a clean shot on the QB. Quin was even in on a blitz.

"Did the defense over shoot some gaps? Did I see some sloppy tackling? You bet." thanks Gary now back to my point.

This defense is more risky than what we've seen in the last few years. They are going to give up some big plays but they are going to make some big plays too. I think that is exactly what I saw from them on Monday. I know everyone is panicking. I know, I know... we're never ever gonna be good. That's how you think when you're abused.

I'm concerned about the tackling too. I'm disappointed in Okoye too. I think Wilson played poorly too. But I see lots of things to be excited about too.

And I will refrain from fully passing judgment until I've seen a regular season game. I'm excited.


Good post Barrett. I agree with all of it. After the game was over I felt pretty good about the defense. They are going to get better and better as the season goes along barring injuries to key players.

Jackie Chiles
09-01-2009, 07:49 PM
One last thing I forgot about. Kevin Bentley is a guy I wouldn't mind getting a look at the weakside if Adibi doesn't work out. I know he isn't a prototype weakside guy but he is a poor man's DeMeco. He doesn't miss many tackles (and brings the wood on occasion) and he knows and sticks to his assignment. Not a world beater in coverage but I have seen him make a couple decent plays. Honestly I am hoping that Cushing plays like Bentley only with better size and athleticism. I would be pleased with that and I think he is capable of doing it. If Adibi can work out his issues he has a chance to be really good and I am certainly rooting for him, this little rant is more about how solid Bentley is.

Lucky
09-01-2009, 09:29 PM
I can't wait to get Cushing and Dunta in there...
I'd bet that DeMeco feels the same way. It seems now as if DeMeco doesn't make the tackle, the tackle won't be made. I know Robinson will tackle. I think Cushing will, also. That's what gives me hope for the regular season. :gotexans1

76Texan
09-01-2009, 10:12 PM
No it wasn't! Gruden was speaking to the fact that Harvin pulled up a little expecting a flag for pass interference. Please don't ignore the truth just so it will fit your argument. IT WAS NOT A DROP! DID NOT EVEN HIT HIS HANDS!

What game and what play you watching?
10:53 in the 2nd qtr.
2nd and goal on the 18-yd line.
The ball HIT his hands!

76Texan
09-01-2009, 10:15 PM
There was some pressure from Okoye and Smith, Okoye forced Favre out of the pocket when the vikes were backed up near their endzone, even though it was a completion there was still pressure. There was a third down incompletion from Favre that was a result from pressure up the middle from Okoye. Mario got his sack because Smith nearly stripped the ball from favre, giving Mario enough time to get there.

I need to go, but I will get back to this.
There wasn't enough pressure.
I'm not saying that Favre had a field day, but he was never rattled... not by a long shot!

swtbound07
09-01-2009, 10:32 PM
The only thing I'm glad at is that you people who say a pass rush will make the secondary okay will finally realize that your wrong when we get pressure and our secondary still sucks.

Speedy
09-01-2009, 11:39 PM
No it wasn't! Gruden was speaking to the fact that Harvin pulled up a little expecting a flag for pass interference. Please don't ignore the truth just so it will fit your argument. IT WAS NOT A DROP! DID NOT EVEN HIT HIS HANDS!

He alligator armed it. Because of that the ball glanced off his fingertips. It's a TD if he doesn't short arm it.

texanhead08
09-01-2009, 11:55 PM
The pressure will come but its a lot easier to get after the qb when the offense is in a sure passing situation. The fact that our run defense hasn't been good has put the defense in a disadvantage.

dalemurphy
09-02-2009, 12:39 AM
I don't see how you can come to that conclusion when you count the 2 sacks by Zgonina in the 4th quarter against scrubs! Like that will happen in the regular season.

Sure, you're correct that Mario would have gotten there instead of Demeco, and that still means (Pressure = Mario).
I fail to see the improvement.
(Yes I know what Demeco and Adibi can do.)

What I want to see is pressure from Antonio Smith and Okoye and whoever they put in at NT (in this case it's Cody) if you know what I mean

Well, Mario's sack happened because A.Smith got to Favre first and swatted the ball, causing Favre to juggle it and give Mario time to get there.

By the way, Favre is very difficult to sack. And, since we were trailing the entire game, it would be silly to expect more of a pass rush than we showed, particularly with their ability to run.

dalemurphy
09-02-2009, 12:44 AM
The only thing I'm glad at is that you people who say a pass rush will make the secondary okay will finally realize that your wrong when we get pressure and our secondary still sucks.

I almost agree with you. However, the secondary was exposed when the team blitzed. The main argument is that an average secondary can hold up and look good when a team has a good 4 man pass rush. Also, considering we are missing both starters and our future star CB (Molden) is rusty as h*ll after missing the past 9 months, I don't think that game was the best test case.

silvrhand
09-02-2009, 02:58 AM
:goodpost:

First of all this isn't like the offense that has had a couple seasons to really start to gel. We have been shifting a lot of people around and bringing new people in. After the first game that I saw last week I was really worried as we just got blown off the ball, and OL were into the secondary blocks which basically destroyed us.

- all we can ask is that we see improvement week to week for a relatively new defensive squad. We got that this week.
- some more aggressive stunts and blitzes so we don't sit back and rely on having Hall of Fame corners. We got that this week.

We played a "legitmate" offense and while we won't rank in the top 5 for defenses, we can probably hold our own now and give our team a good chance at winning.

Areas we can still improve that I hope to see:

- better tackling: We did not get that this week :(
- HANDS UP on the DL: I noticed quite a few times that our DL's were not putting up their hands when they were in front of the QB chasing him. Get your hands up!

TimeKiller
09-02-2009, 08:48 AM
Maybe it wasn't the best-outcome-possible from the D but if the other team is only scoring 17 points we SHOULD be on our way to a perfect season and a ring. This offense is TOO DAMN GOOD to let anybody stop it, much less hold it down for a game. 10 points? 10 points is bullshit KYLE SHANAHAN. Offensive play calling genius my nuts, anybody with ANDRE FREAKING JOHNSON should be scoring 14 points with their eyes closed. Or you know, maybe looking his way on 3rd down...or...more than once a quarter...Daniels too. Has Walter grabbed one ball this season? WTF?!?

I mean an entire row of people saying, "run to the left" about 10 seconds before the snap and being correct. Maybe we've seen too much Texans football but maybe the VIKINGS HAVE SEEN THE SAME SHIT IN THEIR FILM ROOMS.

David Anderson motioning behind the line to come in as a blocker? GENIUS.

Same with Andre Davis? GENIUS.

Those two lightweights couldn't block ME much less someone who has the job of BLOWING UP BLOCKERS WHO WEIGH 300 POUNDS.

This loss belongs to Kyle Shanahan and the offense. NOT the :d:

CloakNNNdagger
09-02-2009, 09:10 AM
The different D looks were exciting, but if the tackling problem does not end up an "aberation" of this game alone, the opponents' regular season end scores can be expected to become real ugly.

Vinny
09-02-2009, 09:12 AM
I didn't ask for what I saw. I really didn't want a mediocre defense that had tackling issues.

JB
09-02-2009, 09:46 AM
He alligator armed it. Because of that the ball glanced off his fingertips. It's a TD if he doesn't short arm it.

^^
This is what I saw

ArlingtonTexan
09-02-2009, 09:51 AM
I have been asking for a good NFL defense. The 4-3, 3-4, tampa two, under, over, zone blitz, etc is nice talk that on occassion that I engage. At the end of day if they tackle, pressure the QB, create turnovers and stop teams from scoing, the details of how really don't matter too much.

Vinny
09-02-2009, 10:17 AM
He alligator armed it. Because of that the ball glanced off his fingertips. It's a TD if he doesn't short arm it.
He should have had that ball. It was a perfect corner pass.

TimeKiller
09-02-2009, 11:33 AM
Looked to me like the WR took a really sharp angle at the ball and it kind of floated in over his head. I would be interested in anybody with replay capabilities to look that one over really well and see just how well McCain was keeping coverage up until the ball dropped. We were sitting on the other end of the field but it looked like he had pretty decent coverage on him, the pass rush was building and Favre tossed a floater out. Then Harvin was it? Harvin made a cut for a little separation when it was thrown and seemed to lose track of the ball after that.

dalemurphy
09-02-2009, 12:25 PM
I didn't ask for what I saw. I really didn't want a mediocre defense that had tackling issues.

I just re-watched the game and I have to say that this is pretty much what I asked for. After the re-watch and the Kubiak presser, I feel very good about the defense going forward for these reasons:

1. Adibi won't be starting. I expect to see Diles at WLB with Cushing and Bentley sharing time at SLB.

2. These inexperienced CBs will be replaced by Dunta and Reeves.

3. Deljuan will be starting!

4. Scheme is creating some very good pass rush opportunities.

5. Lots of above average pass rushers on the field with Mario.

6. Demeco is healthy and pissed off!

7. Depth! We were missing at least 4 starters on defense versus Minnesota and still belonged on the field with them (Deljuan, Dunta, Reeves, Cushing)


... really, I have 2 serious concerns on defense:

1. SS, I'm not sure what DBarber is doing. How can a SS not be in on a single tackle? Ferguson is servicable, I suppose, but still a weakness. I'm hoping to see a move made and/or Busing step up.

2. Okoye playing on run downs. I'm hoping to see him rotate fairly heavily with Cody. I think that will help hide his deficiencies. I thought Cody looked pretty good rushing the passer and versus the run.

Mr. White
09-02-2009, 12:52 PM
I'll just be glad when an average defense shows up. One that can tackle.

It's troubling that guys that have been in the system for more than a year aren't learning the fundamentals.

barrett
09-02-2009, 01:57 PM
I just re-watched the game and I have to say that this is pretty much what I asked for. After the re-watch and the Kubiak presser, I feel very good about the defense going forward for these reasons:

1. Adibi won't be starting. I expect to see Diles at WLB with Cushing and Bentley sharing time at SLB.

2. These inexperienced CBs will be replaced by Dunta and Reeves.

3. Deljuan will be starting!

4. Scheme is creating some very good pass rush opportunities.

5. Lots of above average pass rushers on the field with Mario.

6. Demeco is healthy and pissed off!

7. Depth! We were missing at least 4 starters on defense versus Minnesota and still belonged on the field with them (Deljuan, Dunta, Reeves, Cushing)


... really, I have 2 serious concerns on defense:

1. SS, I'm not sure what DBarber is doing. How can a SS not be in on a single tackle? Ferguson is servicable, I suppose, but still a weakness. I'm hoping to see a move made and/or Busing step up.

2. Okoye playing on run downs. I'm hoping to see him rotate fairly heavily with Cody. I think that will help hide his deficiencies. I thought Cody looked pretty good rushing the passer and versus the run.


I have to vouch that Dale actually called Kubiak to inform him of the lineup change. I was holding on the other line when he did. You're creepy sometimes.

76Texan
09-02-2009, 03:19 PM
Well, Mario's sack happened because A.Smith got to Favre first and swatted the ball, causing Favre to juggle it and give Mario time to get there.
By the way, Favre is very difficult to sack. And, since we were trailing the entire game, it would be silly to expect more of a pass rush than we showed, particularly with their ability to run.

Smith wasn't terrible on that play, but he was not a reason for the sack.
Like I said, the sack was due to the fact that the receiver that Favre intended to go go to was held by Adibi.
Favre was waiting a tad, expecting him to get free (he would have without the hold) and then Mario came.
It was 3rd and 2, Favre had all the room to run for a first down.
He was EXPECTING a bigger play to the receiver.
I wouldn't even call that a coverage sack.
It was a HOLDING SACK!

76Texan
09-02-2009, 03:24 PM
By the way, Favre is very difficult to sack. And, since we were trailing the entire game, it would be silly to expect more of a pass rush than we showed, particularly with their ability to run.
Why don't you go back and watch the entire first half to see how many passing situations they were in.

I'm not expecting SACKS. I'm expecting PRESSURE by somebody on the front four not named Mario.

The only time we had real pressure as such was at the 2 min mark with Shaun Cody, and that was off a blitz.

And trailing 0-7, 0-10, 7-10 has nothing to do with not capable of rushing the passer with the front four.

76Texan
09-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Looked to me like the WR took a really sharp angle at the ball and it kind of floated in over his head. I would be interested in anybody with replay capabilities to look that one over really well and see just how well McCain was keeping coverage up until the ball dropped. We were sitting on the other end of the field but it looked like he had pretty decent coverage on him, the pass rush was building and Favre tossed a floater out. Then Harvin was it? Harvin made a cut for a little separation when it was thrown and seemed to lose track of the ball after that.

Harvin had McCain beat by half a step to a step, however you want to define it.
He also had good position and plenty of room to catch the ball; he didn't even have to worry about keeping his feet in bound.

There was no pass rush to speak off. Okoye was coming but really had no effect on the ball (his guy got him off). Favre was looking the other way and when he turned to this side, I don't think he even felt any pressure.
Like Gruden said, it was a perfect throw. It had good arc, but I wouldn't call it a floater.

Harvin short armed it, like Speedy said.
He didn't bother to extend his arms a little more to make sure that he would pull the pass in.

HOU-TEX
09-02-2009, 03:47 PM
Harvin had McCain beat by half a step to a step, however you want to define it.
He also had good position and plenty of room to catch the ball; he didn't even have to worry about keeping his feet in bound.

There was no pass rush to speak off. Okoye was coming but really had no effect on the ball (his guy got him off). Favre was looking the other way and when he turned to this side, I don't think he even felt any pressure.
Like Gruden said, it was a perfect throw. It had good arc, but I wouldn't call it a floater.

Harvin short armed it, like Speedy said.
He didn't bother to extend his arms a little more to make sure that he would pull the pass in.

FWIW, McCain's coverage on that play doesn't really make a lick of difference anyways. If the ball is placed correctly and the WR can catch, those type of pass plays are dang near unstoppable without interfering.

The bolded is just wrong, man. :)

Dread-Head
09-02-2009, 03:49 PM
...resurrect the "House of Pain" baby.

76Texan
09-02-2009, 03:54 PM
I saw some positives to give the fans hope, but the horrible tackling is indicative of failing at fundamentals. That is unacceptable, but, it was just a glorified practice, so no need to wring hands at this point. Sept. 13 is the real test of this D.

I agree with you, DB.
But I also agree with Vinny that what we saw on the field was "mediocre".
The first team missing gap assignments and tackles are unacceptable whether it's a real game or not.

I have hope for the D. We do have quicker guys in the front 7.
But they need to get the fundamentals down before any "EXOTIC" scheme can be implemented.

76Texan
09-02-2009, 03:56 PM
FWIW, McCain's coverage on that play doesn't really make a lick of difference anyways. If the ball is placed correctly and the WR can catch, those type of pass plays are dang near unstoppable without interfering.

The bolded is just wrong, man. :)

You are right on all counts, of course!
Except for saying that the bolded part is wrong! LOL!

76Texan
09-02-2009, 03:59 PM
...resurrect the "House of Pain" baby.

I would love to... but there's not a chance.
Our guys looked like real Saints out there!

HOU-TEX
09-02-2009, 04:06 PM
You are right on all counts, of course!
Except for saying that the bolded part is wrong! LOL!

Well, couldn't you have worded it a bit different? We have the Flaming Arrow lurking around here. Ha

76Texan
09-02-2009, 04:08 PM
Well, couldn't you have worded it a bit different? We have the Flaming Arrow lurking around here. Ha
Can somebody get him off?!? :goodluck:

dalemurphy
09-02-2009, 04:20 PM
Why don't you go back and watch the entire first half to see how many passing situations they were in.

I'm not expecting SACKS. I'm expecting PRESSURE by somebody on the front four not named Mario.

The only time we had real pressure as such was at the 2 min mark with Shaun Cody, and that was off a blitz.

And trailing 0-7, 0-10, 7-10 has nothing to do with not capable of rushing the passer with the front four.

Favre was on his butt at least 6 times. We had two sacks. You don't count those as pressure? Adibi got a penalty for hitting his knees in the red zone.

Of course the game situation has something to do with pressuring the Qb with the front 4. Are you crazy? I know you understand football so I'm not sure why you would make that comment? strange!

badboy
09-02-2009, 04:25 PM
I wanted to see this game that we had

1. DTs to stop the run
2. A consistent ground pounder at RB
3. An alternate to Slaton in case of injury
4. Two fairly decent CBs
5. A DE other than Mario making the QB sweat
6. Schaub throwing for 150 yards & not getting injured
7. Any LB not named Demeco playing as it the game was regular season
8. TE Hill acting like the heir apparent to Breuner
9. a reason to keep JJ
10. someone who could do a "tummy bounce" tackle that actually stopped the runner.

At least I will have the same list Friday.

76Texan
09-02-2009, 04:52 PM
Favre was on his butt at least 6 times. We had two sacks. You don't count those as pressure? Adibi got a penalty for hitting his knees in the red zone.



You never really read somebody posts in its entirety to make sure of the points in contention.

I am expecting PRESSURE from somebody on the front four not named Mario.

Besides thoses two sacks, the lick by Adibi (who came in unabated), the only other time Favre was down was at the 2 min mark with Shaun Cody, like I've mentioned.

I know you know quite a bit of football too, but you always lack in game review (sorry to say that). I always have to go back and check each of the plays for you (sorry to say that as well).
Favre was on his butt only those four times in the first half.
And only one time by a D-lineman not named Mario!
(Unless you can justify the number six that you've mentioned!)

76Texan
09-02-2009, 05:02 PM
Of course the game situation has something to do with pressuring the Qb with the front 4. Are you crazy? I know you understand football so I'm not sure why you would make that comment? strange!

So we trailed by 7 early in the first quarter, does that tell us that we can't rush the passer with the front four in obvious passing situations?

Then we trailed by 10 eraly in the second, but we came right back to score.
When our D took the field again, we only trailed by 3.
Does that preclude us from rushing the passer with the front four in obvious passing situations?

dalemurphy
09-02-2009, 05:07 PM
You never really read somebody posts in its entirety to make sure of the points in contention.

I am expecting PRESSURE from somebody on the front four not named Mario.

Besides thoses two sacks, the lick by Adibi (who came in unabated), the only other time Favre was down was at the 2 min mark with Shaun Cody, like I've mentioned.

I know you know quite a bit of football too, but you always lack in game review (sorry to say that). I always have to go back and check each of the plays for you (sorry to say that as well).
Favre was on his butt only those four times in the first half.
And only one time by a D-lineman not named Mario!
(Unless you can justify the number six that you've mentioned!)


I said Favre was on his butt 6 times, a couple of those happened in the second half. I know Barwin had one of the knockdowns. Actually, that play should have been a sack but Okoye allowed himself, inexplicably, to be sealed by a RB.

Seems like you just want to complain. Despite always trailing in the game, the team came away with 3 legit sacks and a number of knockdowns.

However, you want to set a lot of criteria in place so that you have something to complain about:

1. Demeco's sack doesn't count
2. Adibi's pressure doesn't count
3. A. Smith's pressure doesn't count because there were some receivers not doing there job right and Mario got the sack.
4. Nothing counts in the second half, even when the starters are in the game.

BorrowMe
09-02-2009, 05:11 PM
Yes, this is what I asked for....

76Texan
09-02-2009, 05:21 PM
I said Favre was on his butt 6 times, a couple of those happened in the second half. I know Barwin had one of the knockdowns. Actually, that play should have been a sack but Okoye allowed himself, inexplicably, to be sealed by a RB.

Seems like you just want to complain. Despite always trailing in the game, the team came away with 3 legit sacks and a number of knockdowns.

However, you want to set a lot of criteria in place so that you have something to complain about:

1. Demeco's sack doesn't count
2. Adibi's pressure doesn't count
3. A. Smith's pressure doesn't count because there were some receivers not doing there job right and Mario got the sack.
4. Nothing counts in the second half, even when the starters are in the game.
Hold your horse right there, you're going too fast!

What I've been doing is to review the first half.
If you think that one lone pressure by Cody is enough to lift this D-line above mediocrity, sail on without me!

And you are incorrect when you said a receiver was not doing his job.
I said Adibi held him!

Fox
09-02-2009, 06:00 PM
I see this pass rush argument as being semantics. Did we get pressure? IMO, yes. Favre got hit multiple times and had to make numerous throws while moving outside of the pocket. I didn't see him sitting all nice and comfy behind his blockers too often. On the other hand, he didn't look 'rattled' to me. It's hard to 'rattle' a future HOF QB with an ungodly number of years of experience. He knows how to subtly evade pressure, make reads on the fly, and how to raise the white flag when there's no hope in order to not get injured (ie. he doesn't put up any resistance on multiple sacks, he knows his goose is cooked and he sits down to avoid a big hit.... Schaub could potentially take a few pointers).

Demonstrate similar pressure against a less seasoned, more nervous young QB and you'll see 'rattled', IMO.

dalemurphy
09-02-2009, 06:11 PM
Hold your horse right there, you're going too fast!

What I've been doing is to review the first half.
If you think that one lone pressure by Cody is enough to lift this D-line above mediocrity, sail on without me!

And you are incorrect when you said a receiver was not doing his job.
I said Adibi held him!

Sorry, that was Barrett talking about a different play.

You know, you really limit the potential for QB pressures when you limit the RDE from the equation, the entire second half, an actual sack by the MLB.

So, here you go: 1st half, Favre dropped to throw the ball 20 times. here are the plays when the Texans provided some pressure:

1. 1st and 10, 13:05, Screen pass. ASmith beat Mckinney but it was irrelevant. No, though, Mckinney didn't let him go in order to block the screen. He actually chased ASmith towards Favre.

2. 2nd and 2, 12:21, Shiancoe completion. Okoye, ASmith, and Mario all collapsed the pocket forcing Favre to run and unload over Barber's head to Shiancoe.

3. 2nd 12, 11:05, ASmith offsides. Okoye was at Favre's feet

4. 3rd and 2, 10:20, Mario sack. ASmith gets pressure on Favre Mario stunts and sacks him

5. 1st and 10, 5:58, incompete. Play action, Okoye right in Favre's face

9. 2nd and 6, 15:00, Demeco sack. Quinn and Demeco blitz, Mario and Demeco converge quickly on Favre

10. 11:40, Adibi penalty. Adibi blitz up the middle and hits Favre... Entire DL collapses pocket around him

12. 2nd and goal, 10:53. Incompete to Harvin. Okoye provides some pressure

14. 1st and 10, 2:00. incomplete. Cody hits Favre

15. 2nd and 10, 1:53. swing pass. Barwin and Okoye with some pressure at Favre's feet

17. 1st and 10, 1:25, illegal shift. Okoye and Mario collapse pocket.. Mario was held

18. 1st and 15, 1:19, holding penalty. Bulman with very good pressure, causing McKinney to hold

20. 3rd and 3, :37, TD. Blitzed right past the screen... oops!


There was only one play in the first half when Favre had a pure pocket and a lot of time to throw... And, on that play, it was an incompletion and a penalty on Minnesota for offensive interference.

Again, that's not bad for a team that trailed the entire half and was going up against a great run team with an excellent offensive line.

76Texan
09-02-2009, 06:16 PM
Hold your horse right there, you're going too fast!

What I've been doing is to review the first half.
If you think that one lone pressure by Cody is enough to lift this D-line above mediocrity, sail on without me!

And you are incorrect when you said a receiver was not doing his job.
I said Adibi held him!

Sorry, that was Barrett talking about a different play.

You know, you really limit the potential for QB pressures when you limit the RDE from the equation, the entire second half, an actual sack by the MLB.

So, here you go: 1st half, Favre dropped to throw the ball 20 times. here are the plays when the Texans provided some pressure:

1. 1st and 10, 13:05, Screen pass. ASmith beat Mckinney but it was irrelevant. No, though, Mckinney didn't let him go in order to block the screen. He actually chased ASmith towards Favre.

2. 2nd and 2, 12:21, Shiancoe completion. Okoye, ASmith, and Mario all collapsed the pocket forcing Favre to run and unload over Barber's head to Shiancoe.

3. 2nd 12, 11:05, ASmith offsides. Okoye was at Favre's feet

4. 3rd and 2, 10:20, Mario sack. ASmith gets pressure on Favre Mario stunts and sacks him

5. 1st and 10, 5:58, incompete. Play action, Okoye right in Favre's face

9. 2nd and 6, 15:00, Demeco sack. Quinn and Demeco blitz, Mario and Demeco converge quickly on Favre

10. 11:40, Adibi penalty. Adibi blitz up the middle and hits Favre... Entire DL collapses pocket around him

12. 2nd and goal, 10:53. Incompete to Harvin. Okoye provides some pressure

14. 1st and 10, 2:00. incomplete. Cody hits Favre

15. 2nd and 10, 1:53. swing pass. Barwin and Okoye with some pressure at Favre's feet

17. 1st and 10, 1:25, illegal shift. Okoye and Mario collapse pocket.. Mario was held

18. 1st and 15, 1:19, holding penalty. Bulman with very good pressure, causing McKinney to hold

20. 3rd and 3, :37, TD. Blitzed right past the screen... oops!


There was only one play in the first half when Favre had a pure pocket and a lot of time to throw... And, on that play, it was an incompletion and a penalty on Minnesota for offensive interference.

Again, that's not bad for a team that trailed the entire half and was going up against a great run team with an excellent offensive line.
I'm really glad (honestly) that you did an extensive view of the situations.
I will have to get back to it later (perhaps tomorrow).

But I can tell you right off the bat what you determine as PRESSURE (especially from the front four) is not how I see it.
There has got to be a certain STANDARD that we can measure it.
So how about comparing it with the Vikings' defense?

Later!

The Pencil Neck
09-02-2009, 06:34 PM
[QUOTE=dalemurphy;1239341]
I'm really glad (honestly) that you did an extensive view of the situations.
I will have to get back to it later (perhaps tomorrow).

But I can tell you right off the bat what you determine as PRESSURE (especially from the front four) is not how I see it.
There has got to be a certain STANDARD that we can measure it.
So how about comparing it with the Vikings' defense?

Later!

I think part of the problem here is "pressure" and "pressure from the front four."

It looks like Dale is only concerned with getting pressure regardless of how it comes while 76Texan is concerned with non-blitz pressure.

Personally, I'm on Dale's side on this one. I don't care if we're going just with the 4 down linemen or if we've got guys coming, I want pressure. My biggest beef (or at least ONE of my biggest beefs) with Richard Smith's version of this defense was that even if he brought a blitz, no one got close to the QB. No pressure from a blitz == lots of guys in man to man for way too long == high completion percentage and lots of first downs.

Richard Smith's thing was that he wanted pressure from the 4 down linemen and I don't think there's anyone who doesn't want that. But most teams can't get that. And we're one of them. So without adding the distinction of having to get the pressure from the front four, I'm just looking and hoping for pressure. I want to see a collapsing pocket. I want the QBs to have to make their decisions quicker than they'd like.

And I think that Bush is on that same page. I think he's going to be looking for ways to bring pressure from lots of different angles and not relying so much on the front four.

BorrowMe
09-02-2009, 10:35 PM
[QUOTE=76Texan;1239343]

I think part of the problem here is "pressure" and "pressure from the front four."

It looks like Dale is only concerned with getting pressure regardless of how it comes while 76Texan is concerned with non-blitz pressure.

Personally, I'm on Dale's side on this one. I don't care if we're going just with the 4 down linemen or if we've got guys coming, I want pressure. My biggest beef (or at least ONE of my biggest beefs) with Richard Smith's version of this defense was that even if he brought a blitz, no one got close to the QB. No pressure from a blitz == lots of guys in man to man for way too long == high completion percentage and lots of first downs.

Richard Smith's thing was that he wanted pressure from the 4 down linemen and I don't think there's anyone who doesn't want that. But most teams can't get that. And we're one of them. So without adding the distinction of having to get the pressure from the front four, I'm just looking and hoping for pressure. I want to see a collapsing pocket. I want the QBs to have to make their decisions quicker than they'd like.

And I think that Bush is on that same page. I think he's going to be looking for ways to bring pressure from lots of different angles and not relying so much on the front four.

This.

dalemurphy
09-02-2009, 11:19 PM
[QUOTE=76Texan;1239343]

I think part of the problem here is "pressure" and "pressure from the front four."

It looks like Dale is only concerned with getting pressure regardless of how it comes while 76Texan is concerned with non-blitz pressure.

Personally, I'm on Dale's side on this one. I don't care if we're going just with the 4 down linemen or if we've got guys coming, I want pressure. My biggest beef (or at least ONE of my biggest beefs) with Richard Smith's version of this defense was that even if he brought a blitz, no one got close to the QB. No pressure from a blitz == lots of guys in man to man for way too long == high completion percentage and lots of first downs.

Richard Smith's thing was that he wanted pressure from the 4 down linemen and I don't think there's anyone who doesn't want that. But most teams can't get that. And we're one of them. So without adding the distinction of having to get the pressure from the front four, I'm just looking and hoping for pressure. I want to see a collapsing pocket. I want the QBs to have to make their decisions quicker than they'd like.

And I think that Bush is on that same page. I think he's going to be looking for ways to bring pressure from lots of different angles and not relying so much on the front four.


I want pressure with good results. I'll take the occasional big play if the pressure is effective at creating negative plays. I thought the blitz packages were effective on Minnesota despite the one huge play before half. I was also pretty happy with the pressure the front 4 applied. Favre didn't have many 7 step drops in the first half when we only rushed four, so for someone to dismiss the pressure from our RDE and another pressure because he thought Adibi held, etc... that really shrinks the sample size and creates a false result, IMO.

76Texan
09-03-2009, 11:17 AM
I want pressure with good results. I'll take the occasional big play if the pressure is effective at creating negative plays. I thought the blitz packages were effective on Minnesota despite the one huge play before half. I was also pretty happy with the pressure the front 4 applied. Favre didn't have many 7 step drops in the first half when we only rushed four, so for someone to dismiss the pressure from our RDE and another pressure because he thought Adibi held, etc... that really shrinks the sample size and creates a false result, IMO.This is the pre-season, I don't think we need to look at the scheme. It will change in the regular season. This is the time to look at individual match-ups. (Somebody had said that, and I agreed).

Basically, I am frustrating about the play of the D-linemen not named Mario.
Cody is OK, I approved the move to bring him in at that dollar amount.

I'm still waiting for Okoye to wake up.

And of course, can somebody find Antonio Smith's name somewhere on the stat sheet please!
If you can't find him there, then I can tell you where to find him on the field.
Just look for a guy who is on the ground. (How do you create pressure lying on the ground I'd like to know!?)
Or look for a guy who misses tackles.
Yeah, those the places you can find Antonio! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif

barrett
09-03-2009, 12:34 PM
I think the scheme is completely irrelevant in wks 1 and 2 but I think it becomes a bit more accurate in the wk 3 game. Friday it will probably go back to a base for at least the second half because some of those guys will have not had the reps and the installs.

I have rewatched the game 2 times now and I just don't see what you're seeing with Antonio Smith. I'm not seeing him on the ground. There is a big difference between say, Barbers lack of stats and Smith's. There roles are decidedly different. Smith was effective. Barber was irrelevant.

76Texan
09-03-2009, 01:44 PM
So, here you go: 1st half, Favre dropped to throw the ball 20 times. here are the plays when the Texans provided some pressure:

1. 1st and 10, 13:05, Screen pass. ASmith beat Mckinney but it was irrelevant. No, though, Mckinney didn't let him go in order to block the screen. He actually chased ASmith towards Favre.

That was a rookie (Loadholt) Smith was going against.
There's a reason why he was the 7th OT drafted. He doesn't have very good footwork and quickness (for a big guy he's OK).
And we can debate black and blue about the intention here on the screen pass.
You get the D-lineman as far away as possible from the play and you're good.
As long as the D-lineman doesn't have a straight Beeline to the QB, you want to invite him in (we call it baiting).
The old adage applies here. "When something is good to be true, it's a lemon".
If the D-lineman feels good about himself after that play, you know you can hook him again.
And Brad Childress' team is well known for screen pass.


2. 2nd and 2, 12:21, Shiancoe completion. Okoye, ASmith, and Mario all collapsed the pocket forcing Favre to run and unload over Barber's head to Shiancoe.

Good pressure here, except somebody forgot that it doesn't amount to anything if you let the QB step up the middle.

3. 2nd 12, 11:05, ASmith offsides. Okoye was at Favre's feet.

It was a free play here for the Vikes. Without a good play by Bennett it would have been a 24 yd completion.
I don't call getting past your man after 4 secs, then come laying at the QB's feet a tad later "Pressure".

4. 3rd and 2, 10:20, Mario sack. ASmith gets pressure on Favre Mario stunts and sacks him..

The referee was busy looking at the line and the side judge was obscured from view.
I insist that this is a hold by Adibi that prevented Favre to throw a pass.
The QB is only "Pressured" when he's forced to do something he didn't want to.
In this case, Favre certainly can run for the first down. But he wanted a longer play to the receiver.
Again, Smith was on the rookie. He never touched the ball. He never made Favre sweat.


5. 1st and 10, 5:58, incomplete. Play action, Okoye right in Favre's face..

This one is similar to the illegal grounding by Schaub.
I didn't count it as Allen putting GREAT PRESSURE on Schaub.


9. 2nd and 6, 15:00, Demeco sack. Quinn and Demeco blitz, Mario and Demeco converge quickly on Favre..

If Peterson had picked up Demeco instead, Favre could have either step up the pocket or scramble to his left.
There was a lot of daylight and green turf there. A sack is a sack. A miss-assignment is a miss-assignment.
If we expect to get a sack because the opponent makes a mistake, we're not gonna go very far!


10. 11:40, Adibi penalty. Adibi blitz up the middle and hits Favre... Entire DL collapses pocket around him..

Again, Peterson should have picked up the blitzing LB. He actually avoided Adibi.
Had Favre anticipated that Peterson would release straight out into the screen pattern, he could have dumped it off quickly for a very good gain there.

12. 2nd and goal, 10:53. Incomplete to Harvin. Okoye provides some pressure..

This one had already been covered. It's good that Okoye worked his man hard. (Hold your thought HOU-TEX, LOL!)
But he was shoved away and Favre never felt the pressure, not that I think there was even anything there.


14. 1st and 10, 2:00. incomplete. Cody hits Favre.

The most legitimate pressure by a D-lineman not named Mario, as I've said.

15. 2nd and 10, 1:53. swing pass. Barwin and Okoye with some pressure at Favre's feet..

Very good effort by Okoye, but it was a swing pass the other way. Favre never felt "the pressure".
Again, my definition of "Pressure" is that you force the QB to do something he doesn't want to. Favre wasn't forced to do anything by our D-linemen here.

17. 1st and 10, 1:25, illegal shift. Okoye and Mario collapse pocket.. Mario was held..

I can say good effort, but I can't say "Pressure" when you're nowhere near the QB at the 3-sec mark. The play was dead before it started anyhow!

18. 1st and 15, 1:19, holding penalty. Bulman with very good pressure, causing McKinney to hold..

I didn't look at this one because of the penalty. I should have!
Good job by Bulman.

20. 3rd and 3, :37, TD. Blitzed right past the screen... oops!.

Well, that's what I mean by baiting!
And laughing all the way to the bank.


There was only one play in the first half when Favre had a pure pocket and a lot of time to throw... And, on that play, it was an incompletion and a penalty on Minnesota for offensive interference.

Again, that's not bad for a team that trailed the entire half and was going up against a great run team with an excellent offensive line..


Favre looked like a twenty-year old kid out there, hail to the great Texans D!
I'm sorry for being harsh on our guys. But giving up 17 points (could have been at least 21) in one half against a team like Minnesota is not going to get it done. You know their D is going to clamp down in the second half comes regular season.
And they weren't even looking to target our suspected secondary much.
All they wanted to do is to get old man Favre into the flow, and boy didn't he feel comfortable out there!
Who would have thunk the guy threw 22 INTS last year.
But if you say that there was only one play that he had a lot of time to throw, who am I to argue!

76Texan
09-03-2009, 01:56 PM
I think the scheme is completely irrelevant in wks 1 and 2 but I think it becomes a bit more accurate in the wk 3 game. Friday it will probably go back to a base for at least the second half because some of those guys will have not had the reps and the installs.

I have rewatched the game 2 times now and I just don't see what you're seeing with Antonio Smith. I'm not seeing him on the ground. There is a big difference between say, Barbers lack of stats and Smith's. There roles are decidedly different. Smith was effective. Barber was irrelevant.

You will just have to watch it again, Barrett!

Antonio Smith has a target on his back I keep on watching until he performs to the dollar amount he was paid for!
I cannot settle for so so.

And I can't believe you think he was effective!!!

dalemurphy
09-03-2009, 02:28 PM
You will just have to watch it again, Barrett!

Antonio Smith has a target on his back I keep on watching until he performs to the dollar amount he was paid for!
I cannot settle for so so.

And I can't believe you think he was effective!!!

Until A. Smith causes the team cap problems, it seems to me that only Bob McNair has any cause to complain about his contract. As a fan, I just want to see him effective. I don't see a need for a sliding scale based on contract dollars. That being said, I'm not arguing that he's been great. I just have seen enough to be hopeful going into the season.

dalemurphy
09-03-2009, 02:30 PM
That was a rookie (Loadholt) Smith was going against.
There's a reason why he was the 7th OT drafted. He doesn't have very good footwork and quickness (for a big guy he's OK).
And we can debate black and blue about the intention here on the screen pass.
You get the D-lineman as far away as possible from the play and you're good.
As long as the D-lineman doesn't have a straight Beeline to the QB, you want to invite him in (we call it baiting).
The old adage applies here. "When something is good to be true, it's a lemon".
If the D-lineman feels good about himself after that play, you know you can hook him again.
And Brad Childress' team is well known for screen pass.





Good pressure here, except somebody forgot that it doesn't amount to anything if you let the QB step up the middle.



It was a free play here for the Vikes. Without a good play by Bennett it would have been a 24 yd completion.
I don't call getting past your man after 4 secs, then come laying at the QB's feet a tad later "Pressure".



The referee was busy looking at the line and the side judge was obscured from view.
I insist that this is a hold by Adibi that prevented Favre to throw a pass.
The QB is only "Pressured" when he's forced to do something he didn't want to.
In this case, Favre certainly can run for the first down. But he wanted a longer play to the receiver.
Again, Smith was on the rookie. He never touched the ball. He never made Favre sweat.




This one is similar to the illegal grounding by Schaub.
I didn't count it as Allen putting GREAT PRESSURE on Schaub.




If Peterson had picked up Demeco instead, Favre could have either step up the pocket or scramble to his left.
There was a lot of daylight and green turf there. A sack is a sack. A miss-assignment is a miss-assignment.
If we expect to get a sack because the opponent makes a mistake, we're not gonna go very far!




Again, Peterson should have picked up the blitzing LB. He actually avoided Adibi.
Had Favre anticipated that Peterson would release straight out into the screen pattern, he could have dumped it off quickly for a very good gain there.



This one had already been covered. It's good that Okoye worked his man hard. (Hold your thought HOU-TEX, LOL!)
But he was shoved away and Favre never felt the pressure, not that I think there was even anything there.




The most legitimate pressure by a D-lineman not named Mario, as I've said.



Very good effort by Okoye, but it was a swing pass the other way. Favre never felt "the pressure".
Again, my definition of "Pressure" is that you force the QB to do something he doesn't want to. Favre wasn't forced to do anything by our D-linemen here.



I can say good effort, but I can't say "Pressure" when you're nowhere near the QB at the 3-sec mark. The play was dead before it started anyhow!



I didn't look at this one because of the penalty. I should have!
Good job by Bulman.



Well, that's what I mean by baiting!
And laughing all the way to the bank.





Favre looked like a twenty-year old kid out there, hail to the great Texans D!
I'm sorry for being harsh on our guys. But giving up 17 points (could have been at least 21) in one half against a team like Minnesota is not going to get it done. You know their D is going to clamp down in the second half comes regular season.
And they weren't even looking to target our suspected secondary much.
All they wanted to do is to get old man Favre into the flow, and boy didn't he feel comfortable out there!
Who would have thunk the guy threw 22 INTS last year.
But if you say that there was only one play that he had a lot of time to throw, who am I to argue!


that is a lot of excuses for one half of football... At least you are consistent. With that kind of perspective I can see why Chris Myers graded out so high with you.:)

I'm not trying to argue that we currently have a good defense. I'm just saying that we showed plenty signs of being able to pressure the QB this year in the Minnesota game. I realize, very well, that it wasn't a very good defensive performance on Monday.

Hervoyel
09-03-2009, 02:43 PM
Ok, it's Thursday and I'm over it and yes, this is what I was asking for and it wasn't as bad as I thought and I was knee jerking all over the place (sorry Marcus) and I'll be better once the regular season starts.

I think....

dalemurphy
09-03-2009, 02:45 PM
Ok, it's Thursday and I'm over it and yes, this is what I was asking for and it wasn't as bad as I thought and I was knee jerking all over the place (sorry Marcus) and I'll be better once the regular season starts.

I think....

I was livid and depressed at the game Monday night. I didn't feel better until I rewatched the game. Funny how a little thing like a 75 yard TD run on the first play from scrimmage can affect your perspective!

HOU-TEX
09-03-2009, 02:55 PM
Ok, it's Thursday and I'm over it and yes, this is what I was asking for and it wasn't as bad as I thought and I was knee jerking all over the place (sorry Marcus) and I'll be better once the regular season starts.

I think....

I was livid and depressed at the game Monday night. I didn't feel better until I rewatched the game. Funny how a little thing like a 75 yard TD run on the first play from scrimmage can affect your perspective!

No doubt. That first play kinda set my mental tone throughout the rest of the game. If I hadn't re-watched the first half again before I went to bed that night I would've been Herv'in out as well.

Even though there were several things looking good, I still don't think we'll be ready for that "good start" we wanted when the season begins.

76Texan
09-03-2009, 03:16 PM
I was livid and depressed at the game Monday night. I didn't feel better until I rewatched the game. Funny how a little thing like a 75 yard TD run on the first play from scrimmage can affect your perspective!

Funny, I shook off that 75 yd TD run soon as it happened!

The fact remains that after reviewing the game (and others) several times I still think the Antonio's signing is a waste of money!

Runner
09-03-2009, 03:30 PM
Ok, it's Thursday and I'm over it and yes, this is what I was asking for and it wasn't as bad as I thought and I was knee jerking all over the place (sorry Marcus) and I'll be better once the regular season starts.

I think....

The little raindrop fell from the sky. It wallowed around in the mud for a while. Now it has evaporated and is high in the sky again. Everything is coalescing and coming together now.

This is just like the water cycle! What comes next?

:)

76Texan
09-03-2009, 04:20 PM
that is a lot of excuses for one half of football... At least you are consistent. With that kind of perspective I can see why Chris Myers graded out so high with you.:)

I'm not trying to argue that we currently have a good defense. I'm just saying that we showed plenty signs of being able to pressure the QB this year in the Minnesota game. I realize, very well, that it wasn't a very good defensive performance on Monday.

There are several separate issues here, the top twos:

1. I've always said that I like Myers better at Guard, before he even played a down for us (based on how he played with the Broncos).
But he's not a bad Center (in our scheme). In fact, his plays demonstrated that he was better than average.
I saw what I saw, especially a better second half. And I have Madden football and Football Prospectus on my side. Obviously, I had the coaching staff on my side as well.
I have never claimed that Myers is A grade.
On the other hand, some folks thought (still think?) that Caldwell can be ready quickly.

Who cares about being right, not me!
I love football, and I call it as I see it. I have no agenda!
In fact when Myers Sr. came on board and "proclaimed" that Jr always finishes his block (in the time of the Broncos), I said to myself, uhhh... sorry no, he didn't. In the short term, it's about being tactfull. In the long term, it's about being truthfull (trying to avoid personal hurt much as one can).

2. This is what? Our 8th year in the league. No more excuses!
It's kind of lagging talking about play-offs already.
I'm not one who would say "this player or that player is a scumbag", but I would call out the best players from Mario to Demeco whenever they miss their assignment. I don't believe in scapegoat!

The others:
3. If I don't hesitate to call out our best players, how can you fault me for calling out the next one(s) in line?

4. I'm old school and fiercly loyal... and it should work both ways... a high-dollar player taking a play off does not sit well with me.
A younger guy gets some rope but not a free ride. Hey, I gave you my trust, now you need to work to justify it or we both look like fools!

5. Back to #2, we're no longer in the stage of "showing sign". It's performance-base what it is. This is the time for action, none of that potential crap please!
(Though I'm more leniant - always trying to look at different sides of the coin and not rendering early judgments- but you get paid top dollars at your position in the time frame alloted (Smith and Okoye), you don't show the effort, you're going to get hell from the people. Simple as that!)

dalemurphy
09-03-2009, 11:52 PM
5. Back to #2, we're no longer in the stage of "showing sign". It's performance-base what it is. This is the time for action, none of that potential crap please!(Though I'm more leniant - always trying to look at different sides of the coin and not rendering early judgments- but you get paid top dollars at your position in the time frame alloted (Smith and Okoye), you don't show the effort, you're going to get hell from the people. Simple as that!)

But we're talking about a preseason game... That is what is different. I agree with you about some of these players. The first time I see Okoye on his butt versus the Jets I will be screaming to get him out of there. And, if Smith does like he did on at least one play versus Minnesota and sit at the LOS playing pattycake with the center while Favre surveyed the field, then I'll be quite vocal about that as well.

All that being said, if someone wanted to bet me, based on evidence at hand, whether this team will get more or less than 35 sacks this year, I'd take the over.

michaelm
09-04-2009, 12:12 AM
76Texan,
Maybe you should rewatch the game in high def or something. I did, and it's very clear that A. Smith made contact with the ball in Favres hand just before Mario sacked him.
I dunno, it was 100% obvious to me. Either you're just seeing what you want to see (confirmation bias that affirms your opinion of the Smith signing), or you aren't getting a clear look at Favre as he double clutches the ball to regrip it after Smirh swats it.
My 2 cents...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

76Texan
09-04-2009, 01:35 AM
76Texan,
Maybe you should rewatch the game in high def or something. I did, and it's very clear that A. Smith made contact with the ball in Favres hand just before Mario sacked him.
I dunno, it was 100% obvious to me. Either you're just seeing what you want to see (confirmation bias that affirms your opinion of the Smith signing), or you aren't getting a clear look at Favre as he double clutches the ball to regrip it after Smirh swats it.
My 2 cents...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm sorry. You must be speaking to a blind bat, because I can't see it.
I forced myself to try to, and still can't!

What I saw was that Favre had a clear view of Smith through and through; he wasn't worried about it, he knew he can step up and get out of the way anytime he wanted to, and he did!

It was the hold by Adibi, and Mario coming out of his blind side that I feel going through his vein and brain! All in that little tiny window of time of a fraction of a second!
Should I throw it! How do I fake him out of this one! Aw shuck, I'll just take the sack!

ObsiWan
09-04-2009, 01:43 AM
76Texan,
Maybe you should rewatch the game in high def or something. I did, and it's very clear that A. Smith made contact with the ball in Favres hand just before Mario sacked him.
I dunno, it was 100% obvious to me. Either you're just seeing what you want to see (confirmation bias that affirms your opinion of the Smith signing), or you aren't getting a clear look at Favre as he double clutches the ball to regrip it after Smirh swats it.
My 2 cents...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know what you're talking about. Favre had to regrip the ball because Smith swatted at it - and must have touched it - as he got pushed away from #4.

The Pencil Neck
09-04-2009, 01:06 PM
I'm sorry. You must be speaking to a blind bat, because I can't see it.
I forced myself to try to, and still can't!

What I saw was that Favre had a clear view of Smith through and through; he wasn't worried about it, he knew he can step up and get out of the way anytime he wanted to, and he did!

It was the hold by Adibi, and Mario coming out of his blind side that I feel going through his vein and brain! All in that little tiny window of time of a fraction of a second!
Should I throw it! How do I fake him out of this one! Aw shuck, I'll just take the sack!

No, Smith reached out and swatted the ball. Favre had to re-grip the ball to get possession of it again. And then Mario got him.

thunderkyss
09-04-2009, 01:12 PM
No, Smith reached out and swatted the ball. Favre had to re-grip the ball to get possession of it again. And then Mario got him.

76, if you saw something different, you are looking at the wrong play. This is an accurate account, as much as I hate to say we got something out of Ant Smith, and our DBs. This was as much a coverage sack as anything.

76Texan
09-04-2009, 03:22 PM
76, if you saw something different, you are looking at the wrong play. This is an accurate account, as much as I hate to say we got something out of Ant Smith, and our DBs. This was as much a coverage sack as anything.
LOL, OK!

I finally saw it from the near side angle. (Too busy checking the far side angle all this time, LOL!)
Yeah, Smith did touch the ball slightly.
My apology to Mr Smith!

badboy
09-04-2009, 04:19 PM
And away we go, "Houston Oilers, Houston Oilers, Houston Oilers #1!" Sorry