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View Full Version : Amobi Okoye.... Frank Okam... I ain't mad at ya...


thunderkyss
08-25-2009, 05:03 AM
I was late to the game because of a big pile up on ih-10 Saturday, so I've been basing my comments on what I heard on the radio, and what I've read on the boards.

I finally was able to watch the first half myself yesterday, thanks to NFLN.

& I'm not mad at Frank Okam or Amobi Okoye. Neither played exceptional, but they didn't play as horribly as I expected.

If you want to know who I do blame for yesterday's fiasco.... it's Gary Kubiak & Alex Gibbs.

If you watched our DTs, and their DTs, there really wasn't much difference. The OL took them both out of the game. The difference was the Saints were better at getting to and blocking the second level.

We didn't help matters with our penetrating defense. Amobi was getting into his gap... but that's doing half the job for the OLmen. It doesn't matter how big you are, how talented you are, or how high you were drafted. If you're trying to shoot past someone, & all that person wants to do, is move you laterall..... it's over once you allow him to push on your shoulder, your side, or your hip.... there is nothing you can do but go sideways.

That's what happened to our DTs, and that's what happened to their DTs.

Demeco was keying in on the Full back. He was in position to take the FB head on. When the HB broke off his route, Demeco was out of the play. Simply because of where he was. Again, that is what is supposed to happen in a ZBS. That's what happened to our MLB, and that's what happened to their MLB. Biggest difference, was that Mike Bell has much, much better vision than Steve Slaton. Bell has good speed, good toughness, good burst, but excellent vision. If there was a cut back lane, or a seam, he was going to find it. Steve..... if it wasn't on his left side, he wasn't going to see it. It looks habitual, and could spell trouble, but it seems that he only broke plays to the left side. Even when pushing further to the right, or breaking to the right would have produced more gain. Because he is so fast, and can accelerate the way he does, he made good gains. But if he can see what's going on around him, and not make up his mind till the last minute, he would be very, very dangerous.

If you watch their OL, and I hope like hell that our starting 5 are studying their starting 5.... on run plays, where they double team a DT, or DE.... the help guy pushes, then releases. Almost like a chip, to get the defense moving in the right direction. Once that motion is started, it simply does not take two guys to push a third in a lateral motion. Our bodies are made to provide strength and resistance in a forward motion. We can't resist when pushed to the side.

Or, if one of the OL found themselves with no one to block, they moved up field, and found someone. Our guys were very slow moving to the second level, whether they had a reason or not.

& when they got to the second level, they blocked someone, & didn't try to merely get in someone's way like we did.

Which brings up another point. When their RB was 40 yards down the field, all 5 of their OLmen were standing up. Our guys are lying on the ground when our RB is still in the backfield. We through ourselves at their feet, very early in the run, and their LBs, and DEs jump right over us. They aim their shoulder pads at some spot mid-thigh and above, drive into our palyers, and take them out of the play....... that is if they have to cut, which is a last chance kinda thing.

There was one play, where Meachum took out Mario by driving his pads into Mario's thighs. Mario managed to stay on his feet, but Mike Bell was already 46 yards and a touchdown away by the time Mario regained his composure.

Buster Davis was the only guy on our team that did a good job keeping the OLmen off him.

It wasn't our DTs that failed, it was pretty much everything else. Mario & Okam held their ends up pretty well. If the play was going to either of them they held the end, and forced the play's back inside. Other wise their would have been no reason to cut back.

But when the play was run away from Smith.... there wasn't any "scheme" to keep him away from the ball. He just wasn't fast enough to get their. They had to plan something, to keep Mario off their guy in the backfield.

Or CBs need to learn to watcht the QB first and foremost. They played so far off the ball, they should have had plenty of time to anticipate the throw, and make a move on the ball. Maybe we're saving that for the regular season.

But their OC did a much better job designing plays that challenged our young Secondary. Our guys got crossed up a few times because of pick routes they ran. Then there were several plays were our guy, like Brice McCain had to chose the under route, or the over. Which-ever he chose, Brees took the other one. Manning has done this to us for years.... you'd think we'd learn by now.

I truly think our Recievers are amoung the best in the league. Then you throw in our TEs, our FBs, and our HBs.... you'd think we would be able to do some of the same things on offense. But we don't.

I also think Schaub can be great.... if he had a great OC.

Anyway, that's my official 2 cents. Defensively, not a whole lot to worry about. I don't think we'd have this kind a problem with most running games. Not many teams are this balanced, and this stacked with talent.

Offensively, we've got a coaching issue. We're running a ZBS that should bring the talent requirement way down. But our gains have been because of individual talent, whether we're talking about Slaton, Chris Brown, Matt Schaub, or Andre.....

Next week, when you watch the Vikings, don't watch to see how many rushing yards we have against them. Watch to see how their DTs aren't the ones tackling Slaton. I think we're pretty good at that part of the game. It doesn't matter how big & strong they are... we'll get them moving sideways.

& that brings up another point. if You're going to watch the N.O. Saints offense again, watch the OL foot work. They guy getting the help on the double team. Watch how he repositions his legs & feet, so that he can handle the job when his help leaves....

there were just so many things that we aren't doing, that we should be doing, with the "Gurus" we've got.

Malloy
08-25-2009, 06:24 AM
Interesting analysis, thanks for looking through the game again, and thanks for writing this up, much appreciated!

nunusguy
08-25-2009, 06:43 AM
Anyway, that's my official 2 cents. Defensively, not a whole lot to worry about. I don't think we'd have this kind a problem with most running games. Not many teams are this balanced, and this stacked with talent.
**************************************
Appreciate the time and effort and all of the detail you put into that post Thunderkyss. Thanks. But I did a copy&paste on that one sentecne from your remarks because I'm just not completely reassured by that remark.
I watched he game on TV and I saw Okoye being easily moved aside on rushing plays. For me, that's a "big problem".
I'm still unsure how you could dismiss it so lightly ? And I'm concerned we'll face teams in our own division who have more formidable OLines than NOLA does ?

Vinny
08-25-2009, 09:18 AM
Anyway, that's my official 2 cents. Defensively, not a whole lot to worry about. I don't think we'd have this kind a problem with most running games. Not many teams are this balanced, and this stacked with talent.
**************************************
Appreciate the time and effort and all of the detail you put into that post Thunderkyss. Thanks. But I did a copy&paste on that one sentecne from your remarks because I'm just not completely reassured by that remark.
I watched he game on TV and I saw Okoye being easily moved aside on rushing plays. For me, that's a "big problem".
I'm still unsure how you could dismiss it so lightly ? And I'm concerned we'll face teams in our own division who have more formidable OLines than NOLA does ?Okoye was awful. Saying anything else is disingenuous or not credible, so I think you are good on this one.

HOU-TEX
08-25-2009, 09:23 AM
Good ol TK!

Okoye was, by far, the worst player on defense. The dude should be ashamed after putting a display like that on film.

JDizzle
08-25-2009, 09:31 AM
Biggest difference, was that Mike Bell has much, much better vision than Steve Slaton.

Sure thing pal ...

Porky
08-25-2009, 09:31 AM
I must have watched a different game then he did. :gun:

Vinny
08-25-2009, 09:34 AM
Sure thing pal ...
it's easy to run the ball when nobody touches you. On a side note, there were supposed to be DT's in that hole. Someone just needs to remind TK. :fans:

Texan_Bill
08-25-2009, 09:35 AM
Was there a game Saturday night?

If so, the one that I thought I saw didn't play out anything like what TK described. I thought I saw a game in which Okam and Okoye were pushed around like rag dolls. A game where I saw a mediocre running back - that we cut, rush 10 times for 100 yards?

Vinny
08-25-2009, 09:37 AM
Was there a game Saturday night?

If so, the one that I thought I saw didn't play out anything like what TK described. I thought I saw a game in which Okam and Okoye were pushed around like rag dolls. A game where I saw a mediocre running back - that we cut, rush 10 times for 100 yards?
and finish with a clean jersey.

Mr. White
08-25-2009, 09:37 AM
Good ol TK!

Okoye was, by far, the worst player on defense. The dude should be ashamed after putting a display like that on film.

Actually, I understand the Nigerian spelling of his name to be Am0bi Ok0ye. It means "nothing in the middle."

Vinny
08-25-2009, 09:38 AM
Actually, I understand the Nigerian spelling of his name to be Am0bi Ok0ye. It means "nothing in the middle."

:spit: nice

HOU-TEX
08-25-2009, 09:39 AM
I must have watched a different game then he did. :gun:

it's easy to run the ball when nobody touches you. On a side note, there were supposed to be DT's in that hole. Someone just needs to remind TK. :fans:

Agreed.

You know, when I had a bad game or scrimmage in HS and College I used to dread going to the film room the next day. Both the players and the coaches would let you know how bad you goofed up.

I'd have to think it'd be worse in the NFL, right? I just can't see the players and coaches not doing or saying anything about Okoye being bulldozed time after time.

Porky
08-25-2009, 09:43 AM
Mike Bell has better vision than Slaton? I can't go there either. Slaton has excellent vision. I'll try to watch if he has a tendency to pop left, but almost all players have tendencies. He's definetely a better RB than Bell overall although Bell impressed me. Hell, Slaton still might still be running if he was playing on the Saints offense Sat night.

And our tackles were pushed around with ease all night, and the LB's sucked too. I see Kubiak praised Ryans but to my naked eye I didn't see anything special out of him either. Might have been the best of a bad lot, but that's like saying I'd rather eat dirt than ****. It ain't saying much.

HOU-TEX
08-25-2009, 09:52 AM
Mike Bell has better vision than Slaton? I can't go there either. Slaton has excellent vision. I'll try to watch if he has a tendency to pop left, but almost all players have tendencies. He's definetely a better RB than Bell overall although Bell impressed me. Hell, Slaton still might still be running if he was playing on the Saints offense Sat night.

And our tackles were pushed around with ease all night, and the LB's sucked too. I see Kubiak praised Ryans but to my naked eye I didn't see anything special out of him either. Might have been the best of a bad lot, but that's like saying I'd rather eat dirt than ****. It ain't saying much.

Ron "are you going to eat that" Dayne could've run through the holes Bell was given. I'm sure most here know my stance on Dayne, so that's saying something.

Texan_Bill
08-25-2009, 10:28 AM
Ron "are you going to eat that" Dayne could've run through the holes Bell was given. I'm sure most here know my stance on Dayne, so that's saying something.

Well hell, you could've run through those holes. Now, that's really saying something.
:worm:

HOU-TEX
08-25-2009, 10:31 AM
Well hell, you could've run through those holes. Now, that's really saying something.
:worm:

It might've taken 10 minutes, but I could've the way Texans were laying all over the field playing possum.

Spike
08-25-2009, 10:36 AM
I don't know enough about x's and o's to support that detailed of analysis, but it did appear to my untrained eye that the DTs were completely out of the picture on those big runs.

However, I did notice a couple of times where the run play appeared to be "contained", but the the Saint's RB was able to get past the one player that was in position to make a tackle. Most of the time, it appeared to me that either a CB or safety was in position, near the line of scrimmage, to make the tackle - but just whiffed. I definited saw Quinn miss a few.

Can anyone else speak to this?

GP
08-25-2009, 11:12 AM
The first Saints run play of the game was a nice run that made it appear that we got blown off the line. Because we did.

I watched that first play over and over last night. Ran out of time, so all I saw was the first series for both teams.

They had five olinemen and a TE lined up on the right side of their line.

They had a fullback back there, off-set IIRC. The fullback ran through the line first, and one of our players keyed on him in case he had the ball.

(In my best Ron "Jaws" Jaworsky voice) When the play happened, a WR had motioned around the halfback and it appeared that it might be a trick play. This froze the LBs at the snap.

So now you have frozen LBs, accounting for the end-around by a WR or a wildcat play of some sort, and you have seven offensive guys (blockers) power blocking through a defensive line of four or five men.

The fullback gets into the level of the LBs, and it was easy sledding for Mike Bell with the hole that was made.

I fault our pre-snap alignment. When there's a fullback back there, and a TE in a three-point stance at the end of the oline, and a halfback that far back into the backfield behind a fullback, you need to get up on the line with all your defensive players.

But then again, we're talking Drew Brees and some pretty good WRs out there at the same time. So you pick your poison, I guess.

On that play, I think we got caught snoozing on the pre-snap alignment and didn't put ourselves in position to stop it. I bet the Saints coaches and players were licking their chops when they saw our positioning on that play.

thunderkyss
08-25-2009, 11:20 AM
I'm not saying Okoye wasn't the worst player on the field Saturday night, well, yes I am, Smith was the worst player, but that's a different story. But our DTs didn't look any worse than their DTs. Even Okam got pushed side to side, but since he also got upfield, the Running back was forced to take the play back inside.

Look at the game stats, The DTs & DEs didn't make a lot of tackles. Sedrick Ellis has 2 assist, even though he played the entire first half. Remi Ayodele has 1 and 1.... Do you think the Saints are crying because their DTs got pushed around? Of course not, Even though Slaton gained 5 yards per carry. He had to work his but off and run around the pile of bodies we call an offensive line. The only reason they had huge holes to run to, was because their OL made good blocks at the second level. Ours never got to the second level, or failed to stop the LBs & DBs from getting to the LOS.

It doesn't matter to me whether the blame is on Okoye & Okam, or Barber & Adibi... it's all the same, and needs to be fixed. I just think there's more opportunity for improvement at the LB & Safety level. & replacing our DTs wouldn't have had much affect if they had the same penetration philosophy.

Next week, we'll see Amobi shooting the gap, getting into the backfield, and causing havoc..... some people here are going to say he played better.. when he didn't. He'll be playing an offensive line that is more susceptive to his kind of play. They'll be trying to push him North/South, and he's going to slip past them. Okam's strength will help him not be pushed North/South, where it doesn't help at all, from being pushed East/West.

If you get a chance to watch the game again, instead of trying to find out what we did wrong, look to see what they did right, and why what worked for them, didn't work for us. It wasn't that their DTs played anybetter, because they were taken out of the play just as much as ours were.

badboy
08-25-2009, 11:21 AM
I am a huge Slaton fan but TK's notes on S. running triggered something for me. Last season if Slaton ran to the right of center, he was ok and if needed would cut back to the left, never to right if my memory serves me (and it often doesn't). Same if he goes to left of center. Maybe TK has something on a perepheral issue to right. Regardless, he ran very well last season.

My problem with coaching decisions was not the challenge that led to Mario losing sack but with OC or whomever that ran SLaton within the red zone in first quarter. Thought that was why we signed Brown. If we were trying to shock the defense with Slaton it did not work.

GP
08-25-2009, 11:23 AM
On our first series, near the endzone, Slaton DID miss an obvious open lane to the far right side of the line as the play developed.

Leach had blasted through to the right untouched and was engaging a defender, and instead of following Leach and then popping to the right side around the DE who was being blocked and going backwards, Steve cuts back into the defensive line and is met immediately and stopped.

There was a HUGE play around the right side. Probably for a TD.

I'm not knocking on Steve. He's fallible. That's not the norm for him.

But TK mentioned Steve looking for cut-backs to the left, and I noticed that he chose a left-side cutback instead of seeing the hole on the right that was opening up as he had just taken the handoff and began his first few steps with the ball. Re-watch it again, the play was opening up in pretty obvious fashion--not as if it's a 50-50 proposition or anything.

I think TK has something right when he talks about player positioning and decision-making during the play. If that's the fault of our revamped "scheme," then we're looking at it being a coaching issue.

I, too, noticed the Saints fullback getting a lot of attention from our guys.

It might be that the Saints just did a great job of breaking us down and had figured out how to beat us pretty easily. Which, again, I see as being a head coach and coordinator issue.

Having said that, I will say that Okoye looked like he had no power in his legs. Did he not have any to begin with, and now his injury has made it even worse? I do see the concern about his level of play.

But I think overall, our guys on defense were a bit out-to-lunch. And that was only watching the first series of both teams. It sounds like it got worse as the night wore on.

J. Sean Wonton
08-25-2009, 11:29 AM
How much of Okoye's problem could be attributed to his injury?

HOU-TEX
08-25-2009, 11:34 AM
I'm not saying Okoye wasn't the worst player on the field Saturday night, well, yes I am, Smith was the worst player, but that's a different story. But our DTs didn't look any worse than their DTs. Even Okam got pushed side to side, but since he also got upfield, the Running back was forced to take the play back inside.

Look at the game stats, The DTs & DEs didn't make a lot of tackles. Sedrick Ellis has 2 assist, even though he played the entire first half. Remi Ayodele has 1 and 1.... Do you think the Saints are crying because their DTs got pushed around? Of course not, Even though Slaton gained 5 yards per carry. He had to work his but off and run around the pile of bodies we call an offensive line. The only reason they had huge holes to run to, was because their OL made good blocks at the second level. Ours never got to the second level, or failed to stop the LBs & DBs from getting to the LOS.

It doesn't matter to me whether the blame is on Okoye & Okam, or Barber & Adibi... it's all the same, and needs to be fixed. I just think there's more opportunity for improvement at the LB & Safety level. & replacing our DTs wouldn't have had much affect if they had the same penetration philosophy.

Next week, we'll see Amobi shooting the gap, getting into the backfield, and causing havoc..... some people here are going to say he played better.. when he didn't. He'll be playing an offensive line that is more susceptive to his kind of play. They'll be trying to push him North/South, and he's going to slip past them. Okam's strength will help him not be pushed North/South, where it doesn't help at all, from being pushed East/West.

If you get a chance to watch the game again, instead of trying to find out what we did wrong, look to see what they did right, and why what worked for them, didn't work for us. It wasn't that their DTs played anybetter, because they were taken out of the play just as much as ours were.

TK, I think the DT's have a lot to do with their blockers getting to the 2nd level.

There was an obvious difference between our DT performance and theirs, stats be damned.

Our DT's didn't do much of anything right

Mr. White
08-25-2009, 11:54 AM
Fromtoday's apologist article (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6585870.html).

Okoye, who turned 22 in June, is about to enter just his third year in the league. He was drafted as the No. 10 pick out of Louisville as a 19-year-old, a boy sent into a man's game.

Okoye is still a year younger than David Carr was when he took his first snaps with the Texans. And how deep into his career were the Texans and many of their fans still claiming Carr could find the secret?

OK, you all moved a little slow in that case, but let's not jump offsides on Okoye. He is an inexperienced player with much to learn but room to grow.

It's time for this argument to go away. It didn't make sense his rookie year and it doesn't make sense now.

We all knew he was 19 when he got drafted, but that's been the excuse for the past two years.

You don't draft a guy in the first round so you can make excuses for him. You draft for ability to produce (or even improve.)

TheRealJoker
08-25-2009, 12:54 PM
Fromtoday's apologist article (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6585870.html).



It's time for this argument to go away. It didn't make sense his rookie year and it doesn't make sense now.

We all knew he was 19 when he got drafted, but that's been the excuse for the past two years.

You don't draft a guy in the first round so you can make excuses for him. You draft for ability to produce (or even improve.)

Correct, if he performs like a 19 year old in college he shouldn't be drafted # 10 overall. However, in college he showed top 10 pick potential which is why we drafted him top 10. Unfortunately, we've only seen him realize that potential the first half of his rookie season :(

Mr teX
08-25-2009, 01:00 PM
Okoye got owned and pushed around easily. On the off chance he did penetrate, he was directed by the O-lineman right past the runner because he couldn't get disengaged. Okam just look like he ran outta gas mid way through the 1st quarter because he started firing off the ball about as fast as a glacier moves. This in turn led to him getting pushed into the secondary & being directed right past the runner.

NO wasn't running straight up the middle for nothing. They apparently saw something in the joint practice sessions.

Bennett looked pathetic out there as well. Busted coverages, missed tackles. This is supposed to be our number 1 going into the season?

thunderkyss
08-25-2009, 01:15 PM
This in turn led to him getting pushed into the secondary & being directed right past the runner.

NO wasn't running straight up the middle for nothing. They apparently saw something in the joint practice sessions.


If our DTs got pushed back into the LBs, I would agree with you. Normally, when judging Line play, we look at which side of the LOS they end up on. What I'm saying, is that in this game, the LOS didn't change, The NO Saints moved the LOS East/West which I think makes things a little different.

If our M.O. was to have our DTs stand their ground, then we can judge them by how well they did. But since we're looking for our DTs to penetrate.... how can we say they performed badly? They penetrated, but in doing so, were pushed sideways.

We need to make up our minds, about what we want these guys to do. Do we want them to read & react? If they had done that, they might not have got swept the way they did.

Do we want them to take up blockers? If they had done that, then our LBs would have been able to make plays.

Do we want them to hold their ground? If they had done that, there wouldn't have been a hole in the middle.

A good defensive line would be able to do all those things, you would think, depending on the situation.

My opinion is that they were told to penetrate, and we never adjusted.

RT22
08-25-2009, 01:24 PM
If the Texans are playing a true 4-3 under defense as there base then the MLB does not make the most tackles. If played correctly the WLB and the In the box safety should make the most tackles in this defense. This defense is dependent on everyone controlling there gap assigned. If one person misses their assigned gap responsiblity the 4-3 under will get gashed by the run. If more than one can't hold there gap in the run game you will be embarased as the Texans were on last Saturday night. The reason Kubiak stated that DeMeco did his part was because he did he took on his blocker (FB or G) as the MLB is supposed to the WLB is supposed to be free to make a lot of tackles but because the DL didn't handle there gaps the WLB was not clean nor was the in the box safety. The SLB plays contain on the TE side and is responsible for the 9 gap which didn't seem to be a problem because the Saint found a weakness in the middle and did not run outside much if at all. Also if my memory serves me correctly Mario reached out from the WS DE position and just missed Bell through the 3 gap which I believe was Amobi's gap on the 46 yard TD run. I will re watch the game when it is availible to rewatch here in New Orleans.

Mr teX
08-25-2009, 01:30 PM
If our DTs got pushed back into the LBs, I would agree with you. Normally, when judging Line play, we look at which side of the LOS they end up on. What I'm saying, is that in this game, the LOS didn't change, The NO Saints moved the LOS East/West which I think makes things a little different.

I saw a couple of times both of them were pushed into the Lb's.

If our M.O. was to have our DTs stand their ground, then we can judge them by how well they did. But since we're looking for our DTs to penetrate.... how can we say they performed badly? They penetrated, but in doing so, were pushed sideways.

[B]Theoretically, this is true, but if you're actually penetrating effectively, you're in position to make the play in the backfield. They were just being shoved the way the O-line wanted them to go & then weren't able to disengage when they needed to. [B]

We need to make up our minds, about what we want these guys to do. Do we want them to read & react? If they had done that, they might not have got swept the way they did.

Do we want them to take up blockers? If they had done that, then our LBs would have been able to make plays.

Do we want them to hold their ground? If they had done that, there wouldn't have been a hole in the middle.

A good defensive line would be able to do all those things, you would think, depending on the situation.

My opinion is that they were told to penetrate, and we never adjusted.

We want them to do both, like DT's are supposed to do.

RT22
08-25-2009, 01:33 PM
Also in the 4-3 Under the DL must come of the ball every down to control there gap weather it is a run or pass as this defense is very simplified which is good and bad. Good that the defense can just go because they know there assignment. Bad because if you don't change it up a good offense knows where you are going and makes it simple to design plays for what the know you will do. This is why I think it is a bad idea to switch you DL and LB's to the offense strong side.

76Texan
08-25-2009, 01:38 PM
Also in the 4-3 Under the DL must come of the ball every down to control there gap weather it is a run or pass as this defense is very simplified which is good and bad. Good that the defense can just go because they know there assignment. Bad because if you don't change it up a good offense knows where you are going and makes it simple to design plays for what the know you will do. This is why I think it is a bad idea to switch you DL and LB's to the offense strong side.

We were mostly in the 4-3 Over!

hadaad
08-25-2009, 01:44 PM
Actually, I understand the Nigerian spelling of his name to be Am0bi Ok0ye. It means "nothing in the middle."

Not a big fan of the negativity, but that's awesome.

76Texan
08-25-2009, 02:16 PM
TK, I think the DT's have a lot to do with their blockers getting to the 2nd level.

There was an obvious difference between our DT performance and theirs, stats be damned.

Our DT's didn't do much of anything right

What I saw was not terrible, but a lot of bads from most every guys on the D.

First of all, their DTs were going against White, Studdard, and Brisiel (who isn't bad, but at most a below-average starter in this league, IMO).
Neither Schaub nor Slaton was totally sharp.

Okoye played below average to poorly.
Okam took on the most double team. He had a so-so game.
Mario had a good game, but not his best.
Smith had almost as poor a game as Okoye.

Our LBs as a unit, was average.

Our secondary stunk.

Bennett was playing flag football on his first tackle attempt.

There was busted coverage on the first TD.
That one I would attribute to Barber, not Bennett.
We were in man coverage, and Barber just froze.
That didn't help Wilson, but he needed to make a quicker decision regardless.

The second TD was partially Okoye's getting pushed away by a combo block, partly Quin's failure to keep containment, partly because Mario was cut down, partly 'cause Bennett was handled by the WR, and partly 'cause Wilson took the wrong angle.

Nobody can stay with Colston in general.

It didn't matter who we had in the secondary.
All the safeties looked bad at times (Barber, Ferguson, Wilson).
All the DBs looked bad at times (Quin, McCain, Bennett, O'Neal).
They were poor in both coverage and run support.

TexansSeminole
08-25-2009, 03:19 PM
The problem with having your DTs penetrate is that you really do need to blitz to stop the run consistently. Or you need your linebackers to quickly read the run and quickly attack the LOS, otherwise the OL is going to create an easy 5+ yard run by getting to the LBs down field. Our LBs were not really attacking the LOS.

About Okoye, I don't remember him getting a lot of penetration. The play I remember the most was the long Bell run. Okoye was lined up on the right side and the Saints called a run to the left. Okoye was completely blown back 5 yards leaving the cut back wide open. Once Bell found that lane he was gone.

76Texan
08-25-2009, 03:38 PM
The problem with having your DTs penetrate is that you really do need to blitz to stop the run consistently. Or you need your linebackers to quickly read the run and quickly attack the LOS, otherwise the OL is going to create an easy 5+ yard run by getting to the LBs down field. Our LBs were not really attacking the LOS.

About Okoye, I don't remember him getting a lot of penetration. The play I remember the most was the long Bell run. Okoye was lined up on the right side and the Saints called a run to the left. Okoye was completely blown back 5 yards leaving the cut back wide open. Once Bell found that lane he was gone.

You got it all backward! :)

Okoye was at LDT, and the Saints ran to their right side.

Okoye did get pushed back, but it was by a combo block started by the RG and continued by the RT. And it was only about 2-1/2 yds off the LOS.
(See my above post).

badboy
08-25-2009, 03:48 PM
Since we can't seem to penetrate and cause any disruption nor stop the run, I'd be satisfied if the DTs could just hold their ground and stuff the run. That would open up the DEs to get hurries and sacks and an occasional DB or LB blitz. It is going to be a long season.

TexansSeminole
08-25-2009, 03:48 PM
You got it all backward! :)

Okoye was at LDT, and the Saints ran to their right side.

Okoye did get pushed back, but it was by a combo block started by the RG and continued by the RT. And it was only about 2-1/2 yds off the LOS.
(See my above post).

I'm looking at it from behind the offense. Either way if Okoye is penetrating he atleast obstructs the cutback. Getting pushed 2 or 3 yards off the LOS is not what he is supposed to be doing, if our DTs are suppose to penetrate.

Carr Bombed
08-25-2009, 03:51 PM
I'm not saying Okoye wasn't the worst player on the field Saturday night, well, yes I am, Smith was the worst player, but that's a different story. But our DTs didn't look any worse than their DTs. Even Okam got pushed side to side, but since he also got upfield, the Running back was forced to take the play back inside.

LOL, that's simply not true at all and a couple of paragraphs below you in a round about way, say our DTs were the crappiest players on the field.

Look at the game stats, The DTs & DEs didn't make a lot of tackles. Sedrick Ellis has 2 assist, even though he played the entire first half. Remi Ayodele has 1 and 1.... Do you think the Saints are crying because their DTs got pushed around?

A DTs effectiveness isn't all about the # of tackles they rack up, it's whether or not, they can hold up the C and Gs and keep their LBs clean to make plays against the running game. Unlike the Saints DTs, ours got blown off the damn field and they allowed the Saints line to get up on our LBs, which then allowed their RBs to get up on our secondary......and we all know the kind of tackling job our secondary (mainly Bennett) did last Saturday.


Of course not, Even though Slaton gained 5 yards per carry. He had to work his but off and run around the pile of bodies we call an offensive line. The only reason they had huge holes to run to, was because their OL made good blocks at the second level. Ours never got to the second level, or failed to stop the LBs & DBs from getting to the LOS.

And this is where you admit they got better play out of their DTs......they held their blockers up and prevented our line from getting to their LBs, which allowed them to completely shut down our running game......well atleast when Slaton wasn't in the game.....you know, the guy with sub-par vision.

TexansSeminole
08-25-2009, 03:51 PM
Since we can't seem to penetrate and cause any disruption nor stop the run, I'd be satisfied if the DTs could just hold their ground and stuff the run. That would open up the DEs to get hurries and sacks and an occasional DB or LB blitz. It is going to be a long season.

I'm not sure I want us to change our philosphy in week 3 of the pre-season. I'd rather see guys who are the best at what we are trying to do. DelJuan Robinson should be a starter. My question now is who else should start.

badboy
08-25-2009, 03:54 PM
I'm not sure I want us to change our philosphy in week 3 of the pre-season. I'd rather see guys who are the best at what we are trying to do. DelJuan Robinson should be a starter. My question now is who else should start.One of the 4 primary goals noted by Texans prior to draft and F Agency was stopping the run. Our Dline could not do it last season and so far still can not. Philosophy or not, if the opponent can run against us at will, uh oh.

76Texan
08-25-2009, 04:03 PM
I'm looking at it from behind the offense. Either way if Okoye is penetrating he atleast obstructs the cutback. Getting pushed 2 or 3 yards off the LOS is not what he is supposed to be doing, if our DTs are suppose to penetrate.

That play was not just Okoye's fault.
And he was one of those who took on an initial double team.

Another guy you might want to target is Demeco.
(Besides the other guys that I had mentioned).
Demeco got past the LOS untouched (due to the original double teams to Okoye and Okam) and he missed the tackle.

TexansSeminole
08-25-2009, 04:10 PM
That play was not just Okoye's fault.
And he was one of those who took on an initial double team.

Another guy you might want to target is Demeco.
(Besides the other guys that I had mentioned).
Demeco got past the LOS untouched (due to the original double teams to Okoye and Okam) and he missed the tackle.

Seems like if the RT is double teaming a DT than the end and OLB should be able to contain the outside.

76Texan
08-25-2009, 04:23 PM
Seems like if the RT is double teaming a DT than the end and OLB should be able to contain the outside.

We were loading our right side with LBs.
Diles was on the far right and not involved in the play.
Demeco went in untouched and missed the tackle.
Adibi got picked up by the LG (off the combo block with the C on Okam).

Mario at LDE was cut down by one of their TE (they were in their double TE set).
We used our CBs (Bennett who was pushed around by the WR and Quin who lost containment and missed the tackle) and one safety (Ferguson who got caught behind the block on Okoye) to set our left side.
That whole left side was BAAAAAAAAAAD, including Mario!

Then Wilson came up and got tangled in the WR's block on Bennett.

76Texan
08-25-2009, 04:32 PM
We were loading our right side with LBs.
Diles was on the far right and not involved in the play.
Demeco went in untouched and missed the tackle.
Adibi got picked up by the LG (off the combo block with the C on Okam).

Mario at LDE was cut down by one of their TE (they were in their double TE set).
We used our CBs (Bennett who was pushed around by the WR and Quin who lost containment and missed the tackle) and one safety (Ferguson who got caught behind the block on Okoye) to set our left side.
That whole left side was BAAAAAAAAAAD, including Mario!

Then Wilson came up and got tangled in the WR's block on Bennett.

And it wasn't like Okoye totally lost his gap assignment there.
He was woking his gap toward the original playside (the Saints had started the run to their left before Bell cut back to the right).

Sure, if Okoye could be more stout; it would have been a different story.
But the same can be said about a lot of different players on that particular play. Many of them could have shut it down (or slow it down) and they whiffed, some worse than others.

silvrhand
08-25-2009, 06:46 PM
Seriously.. I'm laughing at some of these north/south/east/west..

Playing DL in the 4-3 is simple.

- FIRE off the ball (yah we didn't do that) (EVERYONE)
- put your head in your gap assignment. (DT)
- don't get blown off the ball (NT)
- make your read (EVERYONE)
- flow to the ball while getting penetration (EVERYONE)
- don't allow free releases on your MLB (NT)
- get pressure on the QB on pass downs, either from the sides (DE), or up the center (DT/NT)

Until we can get the basics of DL play down here in Houston, our defense will never be anything but poor or average. I can't ever remember a game that anyone has won when they get dominated on the front lines. It has and probably always will start with the guys up front, if you lose that battle across the board, you lose the game. It's that simple IMHO.

buddyboy
08-25-2009, 07:31 PM
Correct, if he performs like a 19 year old in college he shouldn't be drafted # 10 overall. However, in college he showed top 10 pick potential which is why we drafted him top 10. Unfortunately, we've only seen him realize that potential the first half of his rookie season :(

We can blame Okoye for playing badly, but we can't blame him for where he was picked.

steelbtexan
08-25-2009, 08:50 PM
Through my bleary eyes in sec.326 it appeared that our front 7 got their heads handed to them. The OLB failed to keep contain.

What bothers me so badly is that the two teams fought in practice and when gametime rolled around NOLA physically kicked the DL'S butts.

It looks like more of the same old same old to me.

Firing the DC and hiring from within is a mistake.IMO

STATUS QUO

CloakNNNdagger
08-26-2009, 12:30 PM
Just a little while ago, radio 790 had a camp report stating that TJ on Monday was performing of the field rehab drills only. When asked if TJ wasn't on his way out, it was stated that Kubiak was anxious to get TJ back on the field since he was seemingly their best DT.......................I still haven't come to fully digest that scenario.:cool:

beerlover
08-26-2009, 12:57 PM
you can disagree with his breakdown but the effort & analysis is A+ which is what this board should be all about.

rep your way

rmartin65
08-26-2009, 01:11 PM
Hiring within, when a person gets fired, makes very little sense to me. I want to change the personnel, really change them.

Marcus
08-26-2009, 01:51 PM
Hiring within, when a person gets fired, makes very little sense to me. I want to change the personnel, really change them.

That's not the way if works in the NFL. Head coaches hire their own people. People they feel comfortable with, and have a working relationship with

rmartin65
08-26-2009, 02:30 PM
That's not the way if works in the NFL. Head coaches hire their own people. People they feel comfortable with, and have a working relationship with

Oh, I know that, its just that it makes no sense to hire someone who was working under a person that got fired for the defense not performing well.

PHAROAH
08-26-2009, 03:37 PM
I must admitt the Texans suk at drafting Defensive Tackles and we have wasted high draft picks on Amobi Okoye & Travis Johnson who were both 1st round picks. I think that we should probably trade Amobe Okoye while he still valued around the league as a very talented but young player for someone like a Shaun Rogers who doesn't want to be in Cleveland.

JB
08-26-2009, 03:39 PM
I must admitt the Texans suk at drafting Defensive Tackles and we have wasted high draft picks on Amobi Okoye & Travis Johnson who were both 1st round picks. I think that we should probably trade Amobe Okoye while he still valued around the league as a very talented but young player for someone like a Shaun Rogers who doesn't want to be in Cleveland.

And Cleveland would want to do this...why?

Brisco_County
08-26-2009, 03:41 PM
Just a little while ago, radio 790 had a camp report stating that TJ on Monday was performing of the field rehab drills only. When asked if TJ wasn't on his way out, it was stated that Kubiak was anxious to get TJ back on the field since he was seemingly their best DT.......................I still haven't come to fully digest that scenario.:cool:

At the end of last season, the campaign against TJ heated up again and the rebuttal from coaches was, "He does what he's asked to do." Maybe doing what he's asked is simply plugging the gap, and if that's true, then his perceived value among fans has just gone way up after that Saints game. At this point we're probably willing to accept his lack of pass rushing pressure as long as he's not allowing 5+ yard carries.


Oh, I know that, its just that it makes no sense to hire someone who was working under a person that got fired for the defense not performing well.

Bush deserves a shot. He's qualified, and Kubiak wanted to hire him rather than Smith in 2007 when Bush was with Arizona, but he couldn't get out of his contract.

Brisco_County
08-26-2009, 03:43 PM
And Cleveland would want to do this...why?

So they can also give us their #1 pick. Duh.

thunderkyss
08-26-2009, 05:59 PM
I must admitt the Texans suk at drafting Defensive Tackles and we have wasted high draft picks on Amobi Okoye & Travis Johnson who were both 1st round picks. I think that we should probably trade Amobe Okoye while he still valued around the league as a very talented but young player for someone like a Shaun Rogers who doesn't want to be in Cleveland.

It works for me, but a team has to be able to develop their own... if they can't do that they're doomed to mediocrity. Granted, they don't have to be able to develop players at every position.... DT maybe our Achille's heel, and DBs... maybe DBs are our Achille's... or Center.. maybe Center, DBs, & DTs are our Achille's heel.

GP
08-26-2009, 10:49 PM
It works for me, but a team has to be able to develop their own... if they can't do that they're doomed to mediocrity. Granted, they don't have to be able to develop players at every position.... DT maybe our Achille's heel, and DBs... maybe DBs are our Achille's... or Center.. maybe Center, DBs, & DTs are our Achille's heel.

LOL.

LOL.

So we're good at WR?

drewmar74
08-27-2009, 09:07 AM
At the end of last season, the campaign against TJ heated up again and the rebuttal from coaches was, "He does what he's asked to do." Maybe doing what he's asked is simply plugging the gap, and if that's true, then his perceived value among fans has just gone way up after that Saints game. At this point we're probably willing to accept his lack of pass rushing pressure as long as he's not allowing 5+ yard carries.

I was on the "TJ sucks" bandwagon up until the Saints game. After watching Mike-Freaking-Bell gash us for 100 on 10 I have reevaluated my position, freely acknowledge that I don't know sh__, and I am hoping that I was wrong.

BC, I agree. I don't care if TJ never gets another sack as long as he keeps the LB's clean and doesn't let us get violated up the middle like the Saints did.

barrett
08-27-2009, 02:25 PM
here's a pretty interesting approach to the Okoye debate:

http://www.battleredblog.com/2009/8/27/1004503/amobi-okoye-criticism-is-getting#comments

Take the best defensive tackles in the game today, regardless of their specialty. Vince Wilfork, Albert Haynesworth, Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, Kevin Williams, Pat Williams, Tommie Harris, Darnell Dockett, Richard Seymour, Kris Jenkins, John Henderson, Shaun Rogers and La’Roi Glover (no longer active) are the defensive tackles who have been selected to the Pro Bowl in the last three years. While the Pro Bowl is sometimes a measure of popularity as much as skill, defensive tackle isn’t exactly a position that the casual fan rushes to vote for and the list above is a who’s who of the group (if you see any glaring omissions, feel free to tell me).

Out of those 13 elite players, only four (Jenkins, Seymour, Henderson and Kevin Williams) were more productive as pass rushers in their first two seasons than Okoye was. Okoye’s 6.5 combined sacks from 2007 and 2008 are better or equal to 70% of the recent Pro Bowlers mentioned.
The entire article is an interesting read. I'll leave our statisticians to sort out weather or not he has a case.

Mr. White
08-27-2009, 02:55 PM
here's a pretty interesting approach to the Okoye debate:

http://www.battleredblog.com/2009/8/27/1004503/amobi-okoye-criticism-is-getting#comments


The entire article is an interesting read. I'll leave our statisticians to sort out weather or not he has a case.

I didn't know that this guy is a Texans blogger nowadays.

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/images/2007/07/26/bagdad_bob_large.gif

barrett
08-27-2009, 03:14 PM
here's one preaching patience:

http://blogs.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2009/08/david_carr_bust_amobi_okoye.html

drewmar74
08-27-2009, 03:18 PM
I didn't know that this guy is a Texans blogger nowadays.

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/images/2007/07/26/bagdad_bob_large.gif

"Meester Okoye is not a bust. Please, we are currently beating the Steelers, the Patriots, and the Titans simultaneously as I speak to you. Meester Okoye has 14 sacks in this quarter. We are currently winning. Pay no attention to the scoreboard. We are currently winning."