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View Full Version : So Dunta what are you going to do??


Texecutioner
08-24-2009, 01:31 AM
Well I remember a few folks saying early on when the Dunta talks first started saying stuff like until camp starts and if he isn't there, then that's when I'll be upset or that's when I'll worry.

Well we're now way past that and two pre season games into the start of the season and still no Dunta and nothing has really changed. Dunta is still at home sucking his thumb and using his pacifier.

I think it's put up or shut up time for this guy now since we only have two more pre season games. Either come in and sign and get into camp and prove yourself for this season, or well don't show up at all, don't get paid, and we'll officially move on without you. Time to officially make the call Dunta. You should know by now you're in no real position of leverage and you really aren't holding a flush in your hands right now. You're holding on to a pair of Queens at best and that's not going to cut it in negotiations. What is it going to be Dunta?

Runner
08-24-2009, 06:06 AM
I think it's also time for Rick Smith to get his thumb out and do whatever it is that supposedly "great" GMs do to resolve a contract impasse.

Pantherstang84
08-24-2009, 06:31 AM
I like post #1 in this thread better.

Runner
08-24-2009, 06:48 AM
I like post #1 in this thread better.

Well sure. Why look to BOTH sides of a negotiation to bear responsibility. Black and white thinking is much easier to handle than dealing with messy gray areas.

It will also be enjoyable to read the inevitable posts that the Texans are loaded at secondary and don't need Dunta anyway. That's just more proof Smith has handled these negotiations perfectly. :rolleyes:

Lucky
08-24-2009, 06:56 AM
I think it's put up or shut up time for this guy now since we only have two more pre season games. Either come in and sign and get into camp and prove yourself for this season, or well don't show up at all, don't get paid, and we'll officially move on without you. Time to officially make the call Dunta. You should know by now you're in no real position of leverage...
If you've seen any of the Texans preseason games, you would know that Robinson does have leverage. He's needed on the Texans defense. Gary Kubiak knows that. Rick Smith knows that. Bob McNair knows that.

They also know that they will look foolish by caving in to Dunta's demand of no franchise tag guarantee in 2010. They could have cut that deal in July, and Robinson would have here throughout camp. So if they want to get their franchise CB on the team prior to Week 1, the front office has to make a choice. Do they want to (not) look foolish? Or do they want to do everything possible to have a playoff team in 2009? What are the Texans going to do?

SheTexan
08-24-2009, 07:41 AM
Maybe where the FO looks foolish is not picking up a reputable CB in the draft or FA in the frist place! Dunta is unhappy, and regardless of what the FO does, he's not gonna play well this year. Is Dunta worth all the hype? You guys have been discussing this issue for months, and looks like the discussions continue. He's made his fair share of screwups in the past also. To me, the question is: will we be better off with him or without him. Our secondary plays like they did the past two games, esp last Sat, and I'd say an unhappy Dunta would be better than what we have right now. This is something we as fans have known for months!!! WHY didn't RS, Bush, and Kubes not know this?? Maybe they're not as great as some of you on this board think they are. JMO! The screwup started in the front office. If they wanted Dunta bad enough to place a franchise tag on him this saga should have been settled a LONG time ago, and Dunta would be on the field rather than basking in the limelight at home.

Both sides needs to have their heads examined.

noxiousdog
08-24-2009, 08:04 AM
I think it's also time for Rick Smith to get his thumb out and do whatever it is that supposedly "great" GMs do to resolve a contract impasse.


Reputable GMs let their players walk.

silvrhand
08-24-2009, 08:13 AM
Maybe where the FO looks foolish is not picking up a reputable CB in the draft or FA in the frist place! Dunta is unhappy, and regardless of what the FO does, he's not gonna play well this year. Is Dunta worth all the hype? You guys have been discussing this issue for months, and looks like the discussions continue. He's made his fair share of screwups in the past also. To me, the question is: will we be better off with him or without him. Our secondary plays like they did the past two games, esp last Sat, and I'd say an unhappy Dunta would be better than what we have right now. This is something we as fans have known for months!!! WHY didn't RS, Bush, and Kubes not know this?? Maybe they're not as great as some of you on this board think they are. JMO! The screwup started in the front office. If they wanted Dunta bad enough to place a franchise tag on him this saga should have been settled a LONG time ago, and Dunta would be on the field rather than basking in the limelight at home.

Both sides needs to have their heads examined.

If we don't put more pressure on the QB and DL it wouldn't matter if we had Darrell Green.

Runner
08-24-2009, 08:14 AM
I think it's also time for Rick Smith to get his thumb out and do whatever it is that supposedly "great" GMs do to resolve a contract impasse.


Reputable GMs let their players walk.

I was under the impression GMs were also responsible for acquiring and keeping good players. I also think they have some accountability for the product on the field.

If all they have to do is let players walk, I think I'd like to apply for that high paying gig.

======

I also think Dunta should sign the tender.

Hervoyel
08-24-2009, 08:19 AM
If you've seen any of the Texans preseason games, you would know that Robinson does have leverage. He's needed on the Texans defense. Gary Kubiak knows that. Rick Smith knows that. Bob McNair knows that.

They also know that they will look foolish by caving in to Dunta's demand of no franchise tag guarantee in 2010. They could have cut that deal in July, and Robinson would have here throughout camp. So if they want to get their franchise CB on the team prior to Week 1, the front office has to make a choice. Do they want to look foolish? Or do they want to do everything possible to have a playoff team in 2009? What are the Texans going to do?

I'd agree with this if Dunta Robinson had proven in the past that he was as much of a shutdown cornerback as he thinks he is and could put stop great receivers consistently but his playing history does not bear this out. He's just the most expensive, highest selected "average" cornerback that we (would) have on the roster. I see where the need is but I don't see this man being able to do much to address it.

I guess he'll bring his magical Dunta "everybody plays better when I'm out there" powers and make it all good. Regardless I do think the organization should go ahead and give him his no franchise tag next year promise. I mean, why not? I'd have a press conference to announce it and tell everybody "You know, this one is on us. I mean really, what were we thinking? We franchised THIS guy? Does anyone have him rated as even one of the top 20 CB's in the game today? Has he had a single season that equaled his rookie campaign?" Hell, I'd like to un-franchise him if I could but we'll play the game and here's our word in writing. We won't franchise you again in 2010 Dunta. Now get in here and try and convince the rest of the world that somebody should pay you what you think you're worth".

Seriously, I'd give him what he wants and piss him off at the same time just to see what kind of player came in. Then I'd draft damn near nothing but DB's next year and move on.

Hervoyel
08-24-2009, 08:23 AM
I was under the impression GMs were also responsible for acquiring and keeping good players. I also think they have some accountability for the product on the field.

If all they have to do is let players walk, I think I'd like to apply for that high paying gig.

======

I also think Dunta should sign the tender.

I think he meant that they know when it's time to let players walk and when to put the screws down on them and keep them right here. In Dunta's case we probably should have gone ahead and given him what he wanted after franchising him. Smith should just accept that he won the 2009 battle but Dunta will be gone in 2010 and be happy with that.

silvrhand
08-24-2009, 08:26 AM
I'd agree with this if Dunta Robinson had proven in the past that he was much of a cornerback and could reliably shut anybody down but his playing history does not bear this out. He's just the most expensive, highest selected "average" cornerback that we (would) have on the roster. I see where the need is but I don't see this man being able to do much to address it.



100% agree, Dunta will not fix 90% of the issues we have with our defense, it starts up front and if those guys get no penetration or get blown off the ball allowing linemen to into the LB's with little to no effort, it's going to be a LONG year for the defense.

Kaiser Toro
08-24-2009, 08:29 AM
I am not sure how Dunta would have helped our DTs not get pushed around like rag dolls against the Saints.

drewmar74
08-24-2009, 08:32 AM
Maybe where the FO looks foolish is not picking up a reputable DEFENSIVE TACKLE / NOSE TACKLE in the draft or FA in the frist place!


Fixed it for you.

Thorn
08-24-2009, 08:32 AM
Personally, I think Cushing who has already signed a contract will be of more use to us when he starts playing, rather than Dunta. JMO.

GP
08-24-2009, 08:54 AM
I'd agree with this if Dunta Robinson had proven in the past that he was as much of a shutdown cornerback as he thinks he is and could put stop great receivers consistently but his playing history does not bear this out. He's just the most expensive, highest selected "average" cornerback that we (would) have on the roster. I see where the need is but I don't see this man being able to do much to address it.

I guess he'll bring his magical Dunta "everybody plays better when I'm out there" powers and make it all good. Regardless I do think the organization should go ahead and give him his no franchise tag next year promise. I mean, why not? I'd have a press conference to announce it and tell everybody "You know, this one is on us. I mean really, what were we thinking? We franchised THIS guy? Does anyone have him rated as even one of the top 20 CB's in the game today? Has he had a single season that equaled his rookie campaign?" Hell, I'd like to un-franchise him if I could but we'll play the game and here's our word in writing. We won't franchise you again in 2010 Dunta. Now get in here and try and convince the rest of the world that somebody should pay you what you think you're worth".

Seriously, I'd give him what he wants and piss him off at the same time just to see what kind of player came in. Then I'd draft damn near nothing but DB's next year and move on.

Post of the month.

I, too, have been on the "Draft nothing but DBs in the next draft" bandwagon.

Excellent post.

Runner
08-24-2009, 09:12 AM
So the Texans are weak at secondary. Again.

And the Texans are weak at DT. Again.

This is a long running pattern. Can this organization change it this year? Do we count on them to fix it in just one more draft/free agency period?

noxiousdog
08-24-2009, 09:15 AM
I was under the impression GMs were also responsible for acquiring and keeping good players. I also think they have some accountability for the product on the field.

If all they have to do is let players walk, I think I'd like to apply for that high paying gig.

======

I also think Dunta should sign the tender.

When was the last time Philly, New England, Indy, or Pittsburgh caved on a contract demand? Even the Titans let Haynesworth walk.

Runner
08-24-2009, 09:33 AM
I was under the impression GMs were also responsible for acquiring and keeping good players. I also think they have some accountability for the product on the field.

If all they have to do is let players walk, I think I'd like to apply for that high paying gig.

======

I also think Dunta should sign the tender.

When was the last time Philly, New England, Indy, or Pittsburgh caved on a contract demand? Even the Titans let Haynesworth walk.

I'm not sure what this list of teams has to do with my thoughts that GMs are responsible for acquiring and keeping good players, but I'll play.

I don't know the answer to your question. I have one for you though. When was the last time any of these teams had as many consecutive non-winning seasons as the Texans? How about half as many?

If the Texans had any semblance of the success of these teams, maybe the front office would have earned the slack many are giving them. That slack is starting to look more and more like rope to me.

dc_txtech
08-24-2009, 09:35 AM
If you've seen any of the Texans preseason games, you would know that Robinson does have leverage. He's needed on the Texans defense. Gary Kubiak knows that. Rick Smith knows that. Bob McNair knows that.

They also know that they will look foolish by caving in to Dunta's demand of no franchise tag guarantee in 2010. They could have cut that deal in July, and Robinson would have here throughout camp. So if they want to get their franchise CB on the team prior to Week 1, the front office has to make a choice. Do they want to look foolish? Or do they want to do everything possible to have a playoff team in 2009? What are the Texans going to do?

How does he have any leverage? If he wants to get paid he will be suited up week one for the Jets.

Dunta will be in the lineup this year when the games matter. If he plays well then we can offer him a contract at the end of the season, if he doesn't agree to it we can franchise him again. And if he has a bad season, we let him walk.

Sure it would be nice to have the guy in camp but I don't see how he has any leverage.

TheRealJoker
08-24-2009, 09:45 AM
When was the last time Philly, New England, Indy, or Pittsburgh caved on a contract demand? Even the Titans let Haynesworth walk.

The Tacks agreed not to franchise Haynesworth in 2009 and the Pats agreed not to franchise Asante Samuel in 2008. It sounds like that's what Dunta wants the Texans to do.

Hervoyel
08-24-2009, 09:51 AM
I am not sure how Dunta would have helped our DTs not get pushed around like rag dolls against the Saints.


He wouldn't have obviously. The problem is that I'm not sure how Dunta would have helped our corners cover wideouts in the unlikely event that our DT's do get pressure and stop the run.

He's not and never will be a shutdown corner. He's the best of an average group and coincidentally more expensive but he's not going to be worth the money we pay him this year and he likely wouldn't have been if we'd given him his no-franchise in 2010 promise the day we franchised him. It was a mistake to do this but it isn't going to dramatically alter our defense in either direction now if he comes in the night before our first game or this morning. It wouldn't have made that much difference if he'd been in camp all along.

Pay him, promise him, play him, and then draft his replacement and move on. Let him go check the free agent market and see if he can scrounge up some "Dan Snyder Crazy Bucks" or just go where he's happy. The faster this ends the better in my eyes. See, this is not a big deal really until the defense lays an egg like they did against the Saints. Then the Dunta vs Rick show becomes a distraction to everyone. Smith should go ahead and give him his word that he won't franchise him like I said and then tell everyone that will listen that it wasn't a big deal really doing that because Dunta's not worth the franchise money just to see if Dunta whips out one of those contract year seasons that blow your mind.

Hervoyel
08-24-2009, 09:57 AM
The Tacks agreed not to franchise Haynesworth in 2009 and the Pats agreed not to franchise Asante Samuel in 2008. It sounds like that's what Dunta wants the Texans to do.

It is and despite the fact that Dunta isn't in either of those players league the Texans should agree to his demands I think because a) he's not worth the bank he'd cost, and b) it makes the Texans look reasonable, generous even, and fair when dealing with one of their "name" players.

Goatcheese
08-24-2009, 10:28 AM
I don't think it matters at this point.

Playing a half with the starters in game 3 isn't going to make a meaningful difference in how well he plays week 1.

I'm just hoping he's been in touch with his buddy Fred peaking at the playbook so he's not completely lost.

noxiousdog
08-24-2009, 10:29 AM
I'm not sure what this list of teams has to do with my thoughts that GMs are responsible for acquiring and keeping good players, but I'll play.

I don't know the answer to your question. I have one for you though. When was the last time any of these teams had as many consecutive non-winning seasons as the Texans? How about half as many?

If the Texans had any semblance of the success of these teams, maybe the front office would have earned the slack many are giving them. That slack is starting to look more and more like rope to me.

Wait. So your theory is to be a good team we should emulate the Raiders and Redskins of the world?

noxiousdog
08-24-2009, 10:33 AM
The Tacks agreed not to franchise Haynesworth in 2009 and the Pats agreed not to franchise Asante Samuel in 2008. It sounds like that's what Dunta wants the Texans to do.

Both are superior players to Robinson, but it's a fair point.

At this point though another week without Dunta isn't going to change much.

Specnatz
08-24-2009, 10:37 AM
It is and despite the fact that Dunta isn't in either of those players league the Texans should agree to his demands I think because a) he's not worth the bank he'd cost, and b) it makes the Texans look reasonable, generous even, and fair when dealing with one of their "name" players.

OK fine put in the same stipulations Haynesworth had in his. Including making the probowl. Do you think Dunta would like that and would he sign it.

Runner
08-24-2009, 10:56 AM
Wait. So your theory is to be a good team we should emulate the Raiders and Redskins of the world?

Sorry - I don't see where I said that.

I do say that the front office is not without accountability in the success/failure of this team though.

Some others seem to think every problem is the entire fault of the players, no matter what the problem is.

I see a bunch of players not putting in effort and not improving, and I question them, the people that built the team with them, and the people who are supposed to have them ready to play.

GP
08-24-2009, 11:30 AM
So where we're at, is this:

We're going to either...

1. Get Dunta to sign a one-year deal (spending $9.whatever million on him)

or

2. Go without the guy by either un-franchising him, to let him walk, or not have to pay him because he possibly chooses to sit out the season. Which would spare us the money for one year, at the cost of not having Dunta on the team at all.

Cushing better play UP this year. Otherwise, we should have spent the 1st pick on a cornerback to even out the secondary, IMO.

thunderkyss
08-24-2009, 11:42 AM
The franchise tag is the teams leverage tool to work towards a reasonable contract for both sides. You offer a player $15 million guaranteed, he balks because he wants $24 million.. you franchise him & pay him only $10 million.

Dunta has no leverage here. The last few weeks of 2008, where the Defense played so well..... Dunta didn't. Not in my opinion. He missed tackles he routinely made. He wasn't that fearsome hitter we all knew & loved. I personally think we'd be throwing money away if he does sign the contract.

If I were the Texans, I'd bring McAllister & Surtain in, and give them a shot at making this team as well. I'm thinking they can't be much worse than the rookies we've got, and they've got to be willing to play on the cheap, this late in the season.

But they obviously see something I don't see. They aren't as knee Jerky in this situation as I would be....

& that might be a good thing.

But I wouldn't guarantee Dunta's no franchise clause. If the Texans want Dunta that badly, if I were Smith, I would guarantee to make him the top paid CB in the league, if he is a top 10 DB in 3 stats. Tackles, INTs, & passes defensed.

J. Sean Wonton
08-24-2009, 11:47 AM
Well sure. Why look to BOTH sides of a negotiation to bear responsibility. Black and white thinking is much easier to handle than dealing with messy gray areas.

It will also be enjoyable to read the inevitable posts that the Texans are loaded at secondary and don't need Dunta anyway. That's just more proof Smith has handled these negotiations perfectly. :rolleyes:

Dunta will you please forgive Smith and come back? We need you man!

thunderkyss
08-24-2009, 11:50 AM
Cushing better play UP this year. Otherwise, we should have spent the 1st pick on a cornerback to even out the secondary, IMO.

We've got a second rounder in Bennett & a third rounder in Molden... If Smithiak did their job right, that should be a respectable tandem. Then you throw in Reeves.... who is avg at worst, and Deltha O'Neal, and we should be ok. As a corner back, I don't think Dunta Robinson is anything but avg in that group. If he's not the same tackler he used to be, and he doesn't bring the wood like he used to do...... I think we are much better off without him.

Texecutioner
08-24-2009, 12:01 PM
Sorry - I don't see where I said that.

I do say that the front office is not without accountability in the success/failure of this team though.

Some others seem to think every problem is the entire fault of the players, no matter what the problem is.

I see a bunch of players not putting in effort and not improving, and I question them, the people that built the team with them, and the people who are supposed to have them ready to play.

Okay Runner, I'm usually in agreement with you on most things especially regarding the front office, but in this case I just don't think you get it.

Dunta is not that great of a player. He is very good at times, but he's not worth what he is asking and our front office should NOT hitch their wagon to a guy that's had an injury like he has. Franchising him this year is not a bad thing for him, and he's really really foolish to think that he's somehow being done wrong here. His little act may be hurting the Texans some, but it's hurting himself a hell of a lot worse. At the end of the day the Texans still hold the cards in their hands and most fans won't blame management in this situation.

Now as far as promising NOT to franchise Dunta next season, Uuuuummm yeah, if that's the whole problem here then yeah they need to do that and like Herv said realize we won this season, but let him go next season, and for all we know his attitude could change by the end of the season if things go well. If they don't then it's no sweat off our backs, because he's gone and we'll be prepared for that.

But remember one thing, he is being over paid by being franchised this season. So he shouldn't be whining over that. And if those rumors were true which I choose to believe that they were about what he was offered, then he was offered a sweet deal over what he's worth right now and he said NO.


The bottom line though, is that I'd really like to get this over with and stop having this thing loom on more and more. Either put up or shit up Dunta. Show up and get ready to play, or make like an egg and beat it!

Runner
08-24-2009, 12:05 PM
Well sure. Why look to BOTH sides of a negotiation to bear responsibility. Black and white thinking is much easier to handle than dealing with messy gray areas.

It will also be enjoyable to read the inevitable posts that the Texans are loaded at secondary and don't need Dunta anyway. That's just more proof Smith has handled these negotiations perfectly. :rolleyes:

Dunta will you please forgive Smith and come back? We need you man!

Heck, I'd be happy to see Smith do something like cut Dunta and use that near ten million bucks to help get Demeco and/or Daniels locked up long term. I don't mean he should overpay them, I mean he should try to find in himself a way to facilitate a successful negotiation.

As it stands now, next year he'll have Dunta in the same situation and the other two as possible problems. Throw in other players who think they've earned an extension (and they might be right), and this current group of negotiation failures just creates a bow wave for next year.

thunderkyss
08-24-2009, 12:05 PM
Just imagine what Jaques Reeves is going to want, when his contract is up. All his 2008 stats were better than Asante Samuels, Rogers Cromartie, Samari Rolle & Ellis Hobbs.

He had more Passes defensed, Interceptions & touchdowns than Chris Gamble. Cortland Finnegan, Quentin Jammer, Nick Harper, & Terrence Newman.

He's probably thinking $23 million is where he will start.

Texecutioner
08-24-2009, 12:08 PM
Just imagine what Jaques Reeves is going to want, when his contract is up. All his 2008 stats were better than Asante Samuels, Rogers Cromartie, Samari Rolle & Ellis Hobbs.

He had more Passes defensed, Interceptions & touchdowns than Chris Gamble. Cortland Finnegan, Quentin Jammer, Nick Harper, & Terrence Newman.

He's probably thinking $23 million is where he will start.

Well then he can walk as well, because he can't find a ball in the air to save his life. He won't be worth money like that, and the Texans would be very foolish to pay him anything like that. He was not as good as good as any of those CB's you mentioned other than maybe Cromartie who had a poor season.

Hervoyel
08-24-2009, 12:18 PM
OK fine put in the same stipulations Haynesworth had in his. Including making the probowl. Do you think Dunta would like that and would he sign it.

I doubt it but personally I wouldn't bother. Just use him for 2009, if he plays really, really well then give him a reasonable offer. When he walks for mad money or just to get out of Houston then move on. I hate to bring up his name in this thread because they don't really compare but think about the Brett Favre saga for a moment. You know who the most contented people involved are? That's right, the Green Bay Packers because they moved on.

To some degree we need to move on. We gave him a generous offer and he declined. Time to draft some CB's and move on.

Lucky
08-24-2009, 01:24 PM
Hell, I'd like to un-franchise him if I could...
Well, the Texans could do just that. But, they haven't. probably because they believe Dunta is a much better defender than their fans give him credit for. If they didn't believe Robibson was better than any other free agent CB on the market, the Texans could have kept the franchise tag in their pocket and used the cap room to acquire another CB. That they did not should tell us they believe Robinson can help this team win.

I, too, have been on the "Draft nothing but DBs in the next draft" bandwagon.
You know, the Texans have drafted 4 CBs in the past 3 drafts. And signed a mid-level FA CB during that span. If they were convinced that the draft could/would solve the issue at CB, they would have never franchised Robinson in the 1st place. I'm not knocking Bennett, Molden, Quin, or McClain. The question is if they are good enough to win with in 2009. I don't think Kubiak/Smith believe that, else Robinson would have never been tagged.


Dunta has no leverage here. The last few weeks of 2008, where the Defense played so well..... Dunta didn't.

But I wouldn't guarantee Dunta's no franchise clause. If the Texans want Dunta that badly, if I were Smith, I would guarantee to make him the top paid CB in the league, if he is a top 10 DB in 3 stats. Tackles, INTs, & passes defensed.
Dunta did not play as well as say pre-injury 2007 Dunta. No doubt. But, he was better than the guy he replaced in the lineup in the 2nd half of 2008 (Petey Faggins).

Asking CBs to play for stats is absurd. First, they have no control on whether the receiver they cover is targeted. Second, the last thing you want from a CB is to play outside the defense and try to jump routes looking for picks. That would be a disaster.

Just imagine what Jaques Reeves is going to want, when his contract is up. All his 2008 stats were better than Asante Samuels, Rogers Cromartie, Samari Rolle & Ellis Hobbs.
That should tell you everything you need to know regarding the meaningless of stats as they relate to CBs.

What is Dunta Robinson's value? It depends on whom you ask.

What Dunta thinks > What the free agent market thinks > What the Texans think > What the Dunta-bashing Texan fans think.

The Texans believe Robinson's worth nearly $10 million/year (in 2009). Their's is the opinion that counts, right now. Even Robinson acknowledges that. All I'm saying is that Smith should waive the franchise tag in 2010, bring Robinson in, and try to get the $10 million worth CB play out of him. Let's try to win now. Worry about 2010 in 2010.

Marcus
08-24-2009, 01:40 PM
Heck, I'd be happy to see Smith do something like cut Dunta and use that near ten million bucks to help get Demeco and/or Daniels locked up long term. I don't mean he should overpay them, I mean he should try to find in himself a way to facilitate a successful negotiation.

As it stands now, next year he'll have Dunta in the same situation and the other two as possible problems. Throw in other players who think they've earned an extension (and they might be right), and this current group of negotiation failures just creates a bow wave for next year.

Runner, Texecutioner stole the words right out of my mouth. "Okay Runner, I'm usually in agreement with you on most things especially regarding the front office, but in this case I just don't think you get it."

I can't fathom how you wouldn't want Smith to handle negotiations like other successful teams GMs do, just because this team hasn't had success yet, as if this team is just as old as those other teams are.

And when you speak of these current "negotiation failures" creating a bow wave for next year, just imagine what it be like next year, if Smith caves in, and gives Dunta what he wants.

I think what needs to be remembered here, is that Dunta is not that good of a cornerback. Now even though he still might be the best CB on the team, it is totally and completely beside the point.

eriadoc
08-24-2009, 01:44 PM
Either come in and sign and get into camp and prove yourself for this season, or well don't show up at all, don't get paid, and we'll officially move on without you.

LOL, you aren't getting your wish at all.

Vinny
08-24-2009, 01:55 PM
I doubt it but personally I wouldn't bother. Just use him for 2009, if he plays really, really well then give him a reasonable offer. When he walks for mad money or just to get out of Houston then move on. I hate to bring up his name in this thread because they don't really compare but think about the Brett Favre saga for a moment. You know who the most contented people involved are? That's right, the Green Bay Packers because they moved on.

To some degree we need to move on. We gave him a generous offer and he declined. Time to draft some CB's and move on.I wouldn't give him his request of not franchising him next season. I'd let him sit out camp, then he can come in late and be the best cornerback on the roster. He's currently degrading the worth of his next contract by not being fully prepared to look to his best ability on tape, so by not being in camp, he hurts his game tape. If he has a fantastic year, franchise him again next year and deal him if someone gives you a first round pick. If they don't, do the same thing to him. Wash, rinse, repeat....there's no crying in football. :chili: (just had to use one of these spiffy new smilies)

Hervoyel
08-24-2009, 02:04 PM
It's not Dunta bashing if it's true.

Spike
08-24-2009, 02:04 PM
The way I see it, we are way too far into camp for there to be any real benefit for the front office to change their tune now. These discussions stopped having relevance after the first week into camp. If the Texans were going to be called on their bluff, they would have caved-in earlier on in camp. They have made a decision that they are not going to let the inmates run the prison, and I just don't think they are going to change their tune now. Surely, after Reeves went down early in camp and Molden was still out, they must have known it wasn't going to be pretty.

I still stand by an earlier post that I made. Dunta is the only one who gains by breaking the stalemate and voluntarily coming in early:
(1) Great PR move personally and professionally. Even though he felt slighted, he can demonstrate that he wants to come back for his teammates and play the game that he loves. No one has more of a distaste for Dunta than I do, but if he made a move like this - I my mind would start to change.
(2) Get in playing shape for the season, start understanding the new season to help himself have good numbers to make himself more marketable next year.
(3) Help the defense along and get the team into the playoffs. The better the Texans play, the more exposure they will get, the better chance that he has for a bigger pay day at the end of the day.
(4) No downside. He is going to get the $10 mil if he comes back now or later. The real risk is that he injures himself in the pre-season, but I think arguably he gives himself a better chance to stay healthy if he gets in playing shape earlier.

Marcus
08-24-2009, 02:08 PM
All I'm saying is that Smith should waive the franchise tag in 2010, bring Robinson in, and try to get the $10 million worth CB play out of him. Let's try to win now. Worry about 2010 in 2010.

I think if Smith waives the franchise tag, all in the guise of "lets win now, don't worry about the future", he wouldn't, to quote Herv, "make the Texans look reasonable, generous even, and fair when dealing with one of their "name" players".

Rather, it would make him look weak and without backbone in the eyes of future players' agents.

We used to have a GM like that. Maybe we should hire him back. :thinking:

Runner
08-24-2009, 02:11 PM
Heck, I'd be happy to see Smith do something like cut Dunta and use that near ten million bucks to help get Demeco and/or Daniels locked up long term. I don't mean he should overpay them, I mean he should try to find in himself a way to facilitate a successful negotiation.

As it stands now, next year he'll have Dunta in the same situation and the other two as possible problems. Throw in other players who think they've earned an extension (and they might be right), and this current group of negotiation failures just creates a bow wave for next year.

Runner, Texecutioner stole the words right out of my mouth. "Okay Runner, I'm usually in agreement with you on most things especially regarding the front office, but in this case I just don't think you get it."

I can't fathom how you wouldn't want Smith to handle negotiations like other successful teams GMs do, just because this team hasn't had success yet, as if this team is just as old as those other teams are?

And when you speak of these current "negotiation failures" creating a bow wave for next year, just imagine what it be like next year, if Smith caves in, and gives Dunta what he wants.

I think what needs to be remembered here, is that Dunta is not that good of a cornerback. Now even though he still might be the best CB on the team, it is totally and completely beside the point.

Take a step back. These negotiations did not start at an impasse. One started with Dunta's contract running out, and both sides wanting a deal.

Daniels' started out with both sides looking for an extension.

Ryans also wanted an extension.

I think part of a good GM's skill set is being able to compromise and to create in the other side the willingness to accept that compromise. I understand the player and his agent also have to be reasonable. Smith seems to reach loggerheads rather than that compromise with players the Texans need to reach their goal of having players under contract.

My point is that Smith has not shown the ability to get a deal done. He has pushed them to the point where no one will give in and he'll deal with them next year.

Let me be clear on this: I think the players share a large part of the blame. I also believe that Smith and his abrasive people skills share just as much blame.

Smith should be able to get a tough deal done at some point. Right now everyone waits until next year. Right now, when Smith and a player pull out that blank piece of paper to work out a contract it remains unsigned. That is a failure, on both sides, of attaining the mutually beneficial goal of a new/extended contract.

====

You ask me to imagine what will happen next year if Smith gives in to Robinson now. Giving in means he has to agree not to franchise Robinson next year. That means he gives up the right to pay, in your words, "not that good a corner" $12M.

Vinny
08-24-2009, 02:14 PM
The way I see it, we are way too far into camp for there to be any real benefit for the front office to change their tune now. These discussions stopped having relevance after the first week into camp. If the Texans were going to be called on their bluff, they would have caved-in earlier on in camp. They have made a decision that they are not going to let the inmates run the prison, and I just don't think they are going to change their tune now. Surely, after Reeves went down early in camp and Molden was still out, they must have known it wasn't going to be pretty.

I still stand by an earlier post that I made. Dunta is the only one who gains by breaking the stalemate and voluntarily coming in early:
(1) Great PR move personally and professionally. Even though he felt slighted, he can demonstrate that he wants to come back for his teammates and play the game that he loves. No one has more of a distaste for Dunta than I do, but if he made a move like this - I my mind would start to change.
(2) Get in playing shape for the season, start understanding the new season to help himself have good numbers to make himself more marketable next year.
(3) Help the defense along and get the team into the playoffs. The better the Texans play, the more exposure they will get, the better chance that he has for a bigger pay day at the end of the day.
(4) No downside. He is going to get the $10 mil if he comes back now or later. The real risk is that he injures himself in the pre-season, but I think arguably he gives himself a better chance to stay healthy if he gets in playing shape earlier. It's too late to come into camp early. Dunta is staying out of camp so that he doesn't mess up his game checks with a freak injury. The cornerbacks have been awful so I don't see him coming in till the games are real. Dunta has all the leverage...but it's cool. Franchise him next year too. If he plays as well as he thinks he will someone will give us a first round pick and we can be done with him after this season. If he doesn't, you didn't overpay for a guy long term. The way I see it, it's win - win.

Spike
08-24-2009, 02:36 PM
It's too late to come into camp early. Dunta is staying out of camp so that he doesn't mess up his game checks with a freak injury. The cornerbacks have been awful so I don't see him coming in till the games are real. Dunta has all the leverage...but it's cool. Franchise him next year too. If he plays as well as he thinks he will someone will give us a first round pick and we can be done with him after this season. If he doesn't, you didn't overpay for a guy long term. The way I see it, it's win - win.


I think your argument supports the fact that he has NO leverage. He is stuck with the threat of the franchise tag being placed on him either way. The only way he ends up the "winner" in this matter (if there is a winner or a loser), is if he plays well enough this season to get a contract better than he was offered by the Texans this year.

Vinny
08-24-2009, 02:41 PM
I think your argument supports the fact that he has NO leverage. He is stuck with the threat of the franchise tag being placed on him either way. The only way he ends up the "winner" in this matter (if there is a winner or a loser), is if he plays well enough this season to get a contract better than he was offered by the Texans this year.
nah. He is protecting his game checks and the cornerbacks are awful so he really doesn't have to come in, and yes, the team does miss him whether we understand this or not. He doesn't get any money for getting hurt in camp. The Texans want him in camp, but have no leverage since he gets no bonus and no way to protect himself if he gets hurt. If the Texans want him in early they have to make a move...something I wouldn't do since I think they need to keep the ability to franchise him next season so they can salvage a pick for him if he shows up and has a big year. Either way, at this point it's win-win for the Texans going forward. You can't do anything about camp, but you haven't degraded your leverage as a franchise by potentially salvaging a pick for a player that you may not want anymore, although you need him on the field badly.

Marcus
08-24-2009, 02:46 PM
Take a step back. These negotiations did not start at an impasse. One started with Dunta's contract running out, and both sides wanting a deal.

Daniels' started out with both sides looking for an extension.

Ryans also wanted an extension.

I think part of a good GM's skill set is being able to compromise and to create in the other side the willingness to accept that compromise. I understand the player and his agent also have to be reasonable. Smith seems to reach loggerheads rather than that compromise with players the Texans need to reach their goal of having players under contract.

My point is that Smith has not shown the ability to get a deal done. He has pushed them to the point where no one will give in and he'll deal with them next year.

Let me be clear on this: I think the players share a large part of the blame. I also believe that Smith and his abrasive people skills share just as much blame.

Smith should be able to get a tough deal done at some point. Right now everyone waits until next year. Right now, when Smith and a player pull out that blank piece of paper to work out a contract it remains unsigned. That is a failure, on both sides, of attaining the mutually beneficial goal of a new/extended contract.

Simith has been the GM for 3 years now, so just because there are difficulties going on right now with Dunta, Daniels, and Ryans, how can you put that in a vacuum and say he can't get a deal done with anybody? There's a lot more going on here than him just having an "abrasive" tone.
====

You ask me to imagine what will happen next year if Smith gives in to Robinson now. Giving in means he has to agree not to franchise Robinson next year. That means he gives up the right to pay, in your words, "not that good a corner" $12M.

Giving in means he'll be giving in, with all the future fancy frills that will go with it.

And it's quite telling that you said "in your words, "not that good a corner". That tells me that you don't share my opinion of him. If you did, I don't think you'd be so critical of Smith. If I thought Dunta was worth the money, I'd probably be just as critical as you.

I'm glad we've finally discovered the bottom line. :)

HOU-TEX
08-24-2009, 02:51 PM
The Texans need Dunta and Dunta needs the Texans. He'll be here within a couple weeks or so to play this season WITH the Texans.

/End Thread/

ChampionTexan
08-24-2009, 03:01 PM
Reputable GMs let their players walk.

I was under the impression GMs were also responsible for acquiring and keeping good players. I also think they have some accountability for the product on the field.

If all they have to do is let players walk, I think I'd like to apply for that high paying gig.

======

I also think Dunta should sign the tender.

Well, the Texans could do just that. But, they haven't. probably because they believe Dunta is a much better defender than their fans give him credit for. If they didn't believe Robibson was better than any other free agent CB on the market, the Texans could have kept the franchise tag in their pocket and used the cap room to acquire another CB. That they did not should tell us they believe Robinson can help this team win.



Dead-on Lucky!. This is group-think at it's best/worst. The fact that a significant and vocal portion of this board believes that Dunta's not worth keeping, and therefore the Texans should let him go for nothing - either now by removing the franchise tag, or next year is ridiculous. Not because it might not be true, but because it's been said on this board so many times that folks are just mindlessly accepting it as truth (and if you're reading this saying to yourself "He couldn't possibly mean me", my apologies, you're right, I don't mean you - just almost everyone else).

The same holds true of the idea that Dunta wants to leave Houston more than anything in the world. No reason to be so positive about that, and even if it's true right now, a less than stellar season by Dunta, and he may not be in a position to move on, and a stellar season by Dunta and he may get enough money thrown at him that he suddenly wants to be a Texan forever (or he gets franchised again, and the saga continues).

Runner
08-24-2009, 03:10 PM
Giving in means he'll be giving in, with all the future fancy frills that will go with it.

And it's quite telling that you said "in your words, "not that good a corner". That tells me that you don't share my opinion of him. If you did, I don't think you'd be so critical of Smith. If I thought Dunta was worth the money, I'd probably be just as critical as you.

I'm glad we've finally discovered the bottom line. :)

I've been critical of Dunta for not accepting the $23M (if true). I've also been critical of him not signing franchise tag, whether he gets tagged next year or not. Both are very lucrative offers for him and his skill level. I used your words because I think Dunta is good enough that the Texans need him on defense this year. Many seem to think otherwise because they are mad at him, I guess.

There is no need to look for a hidden bottom line with me. My bottom line is that Smith carries fault in some of this. He isn't perfect. I'm surprised at how many people argue against that.

=======

That being said, I think I have discovered the problem - I read posts and don't apply the fandom escalation factor:

1. The Texans are a great team = 8-8;8-8 = Average
2. Kubiak is a great head coach = tough on offense, tough to be on defense = Average
3. The Texans have great players = until they complain or something goes wrong = Average
4. Rick Smith is a great GM = some free agent hits, some misses; doesn't do too many bad contracts, can't get some key contracts done = Average

I accept Rick Smith is average to this point with the Texans.




Giving in means he'll be giving in, with all the future fancy frills that will go with it.



What is this future furbelow of which you speak?

Norg
08-24-2009, 03:21 PM
Well since our secondary these past two weeks has been getting Burned and reeves might not even be back by wk 3 i think we need to just Make this deal happen we are in a bind ..... Make it happen front office

Dunta is not the best but if he does not play for us u might has well kiss our playoff hopes goodbye

even if he is here we still might not make the playoffs but with him not here our chances go down even more

Runner
08-24-2009, 03:25 PM
Dead-on Lucky!. This is group-think at it's best/worst. The fact that a significant and vocal portion of this board believes that Dunta's not worth keeping, and therefore the Texans should let him go for nothing - either now by removing the franchise tag, or next year is ridiculous. Not because it might not be true, but because it's been said on this board so many times that folks are just mindlessly accepting it as truth (and if you're reading this saying to yourself "He couldn't possibly mean me", my apologies, you're right, I don't mean you - just almost everyone else).

The same holds true of the idea that Dunta wants to leave Houston more than anything in the world. No reason to be so positive about that, and even if it's true right now, a less than stellar season by Dunta, and he may not be in a position to move on, and a stellar season by Dunta and he may get enough money thrown at him that he suddenly wants to be a Texan forever (or he gets franchised again, and the saga continues).

Wait a minute! Why was I included in the anti-Dunta group think, especially via a post where I said that a GM's highest calling isn't to let players walk? I must protest!

CloakNNNdagger
08-24-2009, 03:41 PM
It's too late to come into camp early. Dunta is staying out of camp so that he doesn't mess up his game checks with a freak injury. The cornerbacks have been awful so I don't see him coming in till the games are real. Dunta has all the leverage...but it's cool. Franchise him next year too. If he plays as well as he thinks he will someone will give us a first round pick and we can be done with him after this season. If he doesn't, you didn't overpay for a guy long term. The way I see it, it's win - win.

.............unless, of course, he really sucks wind this season, which is not entirely out of the question.

Marcus
08-24-2009, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Marcus

Giving in means he'll be giving in, with all the future fancy frills that will go with it.

What is this future furbelow of which you speak?

Smith has already stated, publicly, that he will not agree to not franchising Dunta next year. To give in and reverse that decision, would mean that you can no longer take him for his word. Now, you could word that more kindly and say he just changed his mind. But what happens in the future with other player negotiations? He'll have a history of "changing his mind". The next time that negotiations reach an impasse, that players' agent will keep that in mind. He'll just tell his client, "He has a history of changing his mind when the pressure builds, so we'll just hold out until we get what we want."

Smith might have a reputation for being "abrasive", but I think he'll take that instead of a reputation of caving in. But then again, who cares about the future. We just want to win now, right? :rolleyes:

(And I didn't really need to spell that out for you, did I?)

SteveSlaton20
08-24-2009, 03:47 PM
I'm tired of no playoffs, sign the guy already.

ChampionTexan
08-24-2009, 03:48 PM
Wait a minute! Why was I included in the anti-Dunta group think, especially via a post where I said that a GM's highest calling isn't to let players walk? I must protest!

You were included because I didn't edit the quotes in Lucky's post. I really didn't even focus on the fact they were there - just on his actual post.

disaacks3
08-24-2009, 03:54 PM
Asking CBs to play for stats is absurd. First, they have no control on whether the receiver they cover is targeted. Second, the last thing you want from a CB is to play outside the defense and try to jump routes looking for picks. That would be a disaster. How so? Is it any more absurd than the items in Haynesworth's contract? Albert had to worry about the whole TEAM winning x number of games! He also had to make the Pro-bowl (he can't control voting, right?)

How about x number of interceptions / passes defensed, 9 wins, etc. added to his "don't franchise me twice" contract.

If he's as good as Haynesworth, he should be able to ensure that these things occur by his mere PRESENCE, right? :sarcasm:

If he wants to be treated in the same class as players that are considered FAR superior at their individual positions, why is it somehow unfair to ask him to meet the same sort of criteria?

What's the worst that can happen if the Texans franchise him again? He instantly gets a 20% raise to THIS year's tender. At that point, we're talking "Gamble-like $$" for TWO years work!

All of the above comments don't suggest fault on EITHER party, but merely take precedent into account from a 'business model' PoV.

Runner
08-24-2009, 03:55 PM
You were included because I didn't edit the quotes in Lucky's post. I really didn't even focus on the fact they were there - just on his actual post.

Whew! I've been getting beaten up by one side of the issue; I didn't want the second side to see me in the middle and pile on.

Vinny
08-24-2009, 03:57 PM
It's too late to come into camp early. Dunta is staying out of camp so that he doesn't mess up his game checks with a freak injury. The cornerbacks have been awful so I don't see him coming in till the games are real. Dunta has all the leverage...but it's cool. Franchise him next year too. If he plays as well as he thinks he will someone will give us a first round pick and we can be done with him after this season. If he doesn't, you didn't overpay for a guy long term. The way I see it, it's win - win.

.............unless, of course, he really sucks wind this season, which is not entirely out of the question.

I covered that too...If he plays poorly then at the least you didn't tie up your cap with a big signing bonus a la Gary Walker. Dunta is protecting his game checks, and the Texans are protecting their future. It's kinda ugly but it happens all the time in this league. We just haven't franchised too many players in this team's existence.

Marcus
08-24-2009, 03:58 PM
I'm tired of no playoffs, sign the guy already.

Yeah, I agree. Sign the guy to whatever he wants. He's not worth it, but sign him anyway.

Respectfully yours,

Charley Casserly

Texecutioner
08-24-2009, 04:02 PM
Yeah, I agree. Sign the guy to whatever he wants. He's not worth it, but sign him anyway.

Respectfully yours,

Charley Casserly

Co signed AL Davis. :turtle:

Runner
08-24-2009, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by Marcus



What is this future furbelow of which you speak?

Smith has already stated, publicly, that he will not agree to not franchising Dunta next year. To give in and reverse that decision, would mean that you can no longer take him for his word. Now, you could word that more kindly and say he just changed his mind. But what happens in the future with other player negotiations? He'll have a history of "changing his mind". The next time that negotiations reach an impasse, that players' agent will keep that in mind. He'll just tell his client, "He has a history of changing his mind when the pressure builds, so we'll just hold out until we get what we want."

Smith might have a reputation for being "abrasive", but I think he'll take that instead of a reputation of caving in. But then again, who cares about the future. We just want to win now, right? :rolleyes:

(And I didn't really need to spell that out for you, did I?)

Well, apparently he changed his mind/went back on his word when he franchised Dunta after saying he wouldn't. That is neither here nor there, because I'm sure it can be argued he was forced into it.

To answer your last question, no it wasn't. I've been waiting to use my new word "furbelow", and you gave me the opportunity.

Double Barrel
08-24-2009, 04:42 PM
Smith going back on his word is [allegedly] what got us to this point to begin with [according to Robinson].

Interesting to note the disconnect between the Texans FO and #23 detractors. On the one hand, the FO values the player, showing a willingness to pay a reported $23 million guaranteed and franchising him to make $10 million this year (plus the option to franchise him again next year). They obviously think highly of the guy, or they would not bother (correct?). But, on the other hand, many Texans fans have him rated as a horrible CB, who cannot cover and is only good because of some tackling ability at one time and whatever perceived leadership to the defense.

It is a strange disconnect that D.Rob haters do not seem to be pointing any fingers at the FO who rates the player so much higher than they do.

:polevault:

Marcus
08-24-2009, 04:43 PM
To answer your last question, no it wasn't. I've been waiting to use my new word "furbelow", and you gave me the opportunity.

Yeah, and you made me go look it up, ya turd. :joker:

1. A ruffle or flounce on a garment.
2. A piece of showy ornamentation.

Tells me right there you weren't making a lick of sense. :smooch:

gary
08-24-2009, 05:53 PM
Oy oy. Are we still going on about Dunte? If I were GM this whole saga would be all over by now. I'd agree to his terms and pay him the money that he is not even worth. He plays well make him a new offer and ask him if he'd like to stay if he says yes then fine. If he has a poor season and or would like to leave then let him walk and move on through the draft/FA. Make him happy along with the whole staff. Problem solved. Click on the link below to hear Dunte's good by song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqxo1SKB0z8&feature=channel_page

Runner
08-24-2009, 06:02 PM
Yeah, and you made me go look it up, ya turd. :joker:

1. A ruffle or flounce on a garment.
2. A piece of showy ornamentation.

Tells me right there you weren't making a lick of sense. :smooch:

My definitions included:
1.a ruffle or flounce, as on a woman's skirt or petticoat.2.any bit of showy trimming or finery.

Your "future fancy frills" = my furbelow's "showy trimming". I take poetic license, since many of my posts are poetic and near lyrical.

disaacks3
08-24-2009, 06:12 PM
Smith going back on his word is [allegedly] what got us to this point to begin with [according to Robinson].

Interesting to note the disconnect between the Texans FO and #23 detractors. On the one hand, the FO values the player, showing a willingness to pay a reported $23 million guaranteed and franchising him to make $10 million this year (plus the option to franchise him again next year). They obviously think highly of the guy, or they would not bother (correct?). But, on the other hand, many Texans fans have him rated as a horrible CB, who cannot cover and is only good because of some tackling ability at one time and whatever perceived leadership to the defense.

It is a strange disconnect that D.Rob haters do not seem to be pointing any fingers at the FO who rates the player so much higher than they do.

:polevault: I'm not a hater, but you're over-simplifying the situation here. Your assumption is that the F.O. rates him higher than the fans do. You don't seem to recognize the other possibility...that the F.O. really had no other choice if they wished to retain his services in the short-term.

IMHO - I don't seriously think that the F.O. believes that he is WORTH the franchise $$, but they also realize that they had no choice when a deal at numbers they could live with could NOT be struck in time. At that point, it became a franchise him or lose him choice. While 'distasteful' to the F.O., D-Rob (even at 80%) was better than most if not all the starters we had (in coverage) at the time. He's better than ANY CB we've EVER had for "laying the wood". All that said, nobody in the NFL was willing to part with two #1's for him (in addition to the potentially burdensome contract for damaged goods). 31 other teams were NOT restricted from making him an offer, or from talking to him.

Double Barrel
08-24-2009, 06:22 PM
Dude, you keep throwing out there that nobody offered two first round picks for D.Rob. Are you high? :um:

IMHO - I don't seriously think that the F.O. believes that he is WORTH the franchise $$,

What makes you assume that?

Lucky
08-24-2009, 06:54 PM
And it's quite telling that you said "in your words, "not that good a corner". That tells me that you don't share my opinion of him. If you did, I don't think you'd be so critical of Smith. If I thought Dunta was worth the money, I'd probably be just as critical as you.
If you don't believe Robinson is a good CB, how can you support Rick Smith's decision to tie up nearly $10 million in cap space by applying the franchise tag? That baffles me.

Smith has already stated, publicly, that he will not agree to not franchising Dunta next year. To give in and reverse that decision, would mean that you can no longer take him for his word.
Rick Smith needs to worry less about how he's perceived by players and agents in the future, and more about what it will take to win, now. Because Rick Smith needs to win, else there will be someone else in the GM chair when contract time rolls around in 2010.


How about x number of interceptions / passes defensed, 9 wins, etc. added to his "don't franchise me twice" contract. All of the above comments don't suggest fault on EITHER party, but merely take precedent into account from a 'business model' PoV.
I attempted to explain why a team wouldn't want a CB chasing stats. It seems pretty obvious to me that it's not a great idea to pursue individual statistical incentives in a team sport.

BTW, it wasn't because these franchise players obtained a certain "class" that led these teams to waive the future franchise tag. These teams were looking to win and win big. They didn't want the distraction of a camp holdout or take the chance that the tagged player would miss a portion of the regular season (as they could, since they have until week 10 to sign the offer sheet).

Regarding the "business model" comment, yes pro football is a business. But, any business can have a tipping point. I believe the Texans have reached that point. The status quo is no longer acceptable for the fans, players, or the owner. Win now, and Houston is the Texan's oyster. An 8th consecutive non-winning seasons will turn this franchise into the 21st century's Cardinals or Saints and cause the fanbase to lose faith. Every decision this organization makes should revolve around winning now.


It is a strange disconnect that D.Rob haters do not seem to be pointing any fingers at the FO who rates the player so much higher than they do.

I don't remember the Dunta-haters coming out of the closet until after he was franchise tagged. I could probably look back via a forum search and find posters whose opinion changed greatly, post-tag.

If I were GM this whole saga would be all over by now.
gary for GM!

Marcus
08-24-2009, 07:09 PM
Smith going back on his word is [allegedly] what got us to this point to begin with [according to Robinson].

Interesting to note the disconnect between the Texans FO and #23 detractors. On the one hand, the FO values the player, showing a willingness to pay a reported $23 million guaranteed and franchising him to make $10 million this year (plus the option to franchise him again next year). They obviously think highly of the guy, or they would not bother (correct?). But, on the other hand, many Texans fans have him rated as a horrible CB, who cannot cover and is only good because of some tackling ability at one time and whatever perceived leadership to the defense.

It is a strange disconnect that D.Rob haters do not seem to be pointing any fingers at the FO who rates the player so much higher than they do.

:polevault:

I have stated in many posts, and I will re-state it here DB, that I am extremely pissed off that Smith offered him $23 million guaranteed. That was, in my view, a totally ridiculous, Charlie Casserlyish, and stupid offer to make to a CB recovering from a serious injury. But he wasn't a shutdown corner to begin with. Not even near it. Yeah, he made the crowd happy with his hits, but his coverage skills sucked. But this why I'm just blown away by some on here that actually think Smith didn't, or isn't doing the upmost to bring him into camp. So you're going to blame Smith for going back on his word after that dumbass actually turned down that ridiculous offer, an offer that shouldn't have been made to begin with ???

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

painekiller
08-24-2009, 07:17 PM
nah. He is protecting his game checks and the cornerbacks are awful so he really doesn't have to come in, and yes, the team does miss him whether we understand this or not. He doesn't get any money for getting hurt in camp. The Texans want him in camp, but have no leverage since he gets no bonus and no way to protect himself if he gets hurt. If the Texans want him in early they have to make a move...something I wouldn't do since I think they need to keep the ability to franchise him next season so they can salvage a pick for him if he shows up and has a big year. Either way, at this point it's win-win for the Texans going forward. You can't do anything about camp, but you haven't degraded your leverage as a franchise by potentially salvaging a pick for a player that you may not want anymore, although you need him on the field badly.

He gets almost $10M even if he is hurt. What he doesn't get is the $12M next season if he get hurt bad. So turning down the reported $23M guaranteed was IMO a foolish thing. Dunta is not a top five CB in the league, he the best on our team in theory, but not top five in the league.

bpe3
08-24-2009, 07:19 PM
The problem with this whole discussion is that it went to 43 posts before anyone even mentioned the possibilty of Dunta getting hurt this year. THAT my friends is the entire issue and no one here is even discussing it.

Dunta wants a longer term deal with more guaranteed money. The Texans believe it's too risky to make that kind of commitment to him, so they franchise him. The Texans pay more in 2009 by franchising him and in return the Texans get the option to pull the plug anytime after this season. Dunta gets a little more bank this year, but assumes ALL the risk of a career ending injury. If he gets hurt this year, the next 16 game checks he cashes may be the last nickel he ever gets from the NFL.

Injuries happen. Even is the odds of suffering a career ending injury are small, they aren't worth taking. The Texans are forcing Dunta to take ALL the downside risk.

If I were Dunta, I'd be laying low unitl the Jets come to town. There's no sense taking the field now. It's all risk and zero reward. Perhaps he'll have some rust to shake off the first few weeks of the season, but as long as he finishes strong, no one will hold it against him.

Daunta will play every game in 2009. That's what players do. They play. The get paid. Happy or no happy, Dunta has all the motivation in the world to excel in 2009. When the season is over, the whole sitiation will be reevaluated in the light of future events we cannot now predict. And this discussion will occur all over again.

bpe3

Marcus
08-24-2009, 07:26 PM
Now, this is what I don't understand.

He can't come into camp until he signs the $10 million tender.

So if he gets hurt in camp, and is lost for the season, how does he lose out on the $10 million? What difference does it make whether reports early, or waits until Game 1?

Jackie Chiles
08-24-2009, 07:41 PM
Now, this is what I don't understand.

He can't come into camp until he signs the $10 million tender.

So if he gets hurt in camp, and is lost for the season, how does he lose out on the $10 million? What difference does it make whether reports early, or waits until Game 1?

Yes he gets the money either way but every day that he sits out is another day that he has 0% chance to be injured. If you are going to get paid either way why take the risk, even if it is minimal.

On the other hand if he did decide to show up now that would be a nice character statement that could help him make some more bucks in the future.

SteveSlaton20
08-24-2009, 07:50 PM
Yeah, I agree. Sign the guy to whatever he wants. He's not worth it, but sign him anyway.

Respectfully yours,

Charley Casserly

lol

even not at his best, he's easily the best cb on the team.

Marcus
08-24-2009, 08:08 PM
Yes he gets the money either way but every day that he sits out is another day that he has 0% chance to be injured. If you are going to get paid either way why take the risk, even if it is minimal.

Mario or Schaub or AJ get paid either way. Do you want them to sit out camp to eliminate the risk of getting injured?

On the other hand if he did decide to show up now that would be a nice character statement that could help him make some more bucks in the future.

On the other hand, if did decide to show up, he might not look lost out there on opening day, or rusty as hell from missing camp. Look for him to get torched for a couple of TDs by the Jets. I swear, I won't have to say a thing. Hell, I won't get a word in edge-wise :heh:

Vinny
08-24-2009, 08:12 PM
He gets almost $10M even if he is hurt. What he doesn't get is the $12M next season if he get hurt bad. So turning down the reported $23M guaranteed was IMO a foolish thing. Dunta is not a top five CB in the league, he the best on our team in theory, but not top five in the league.You're right about the money. As soon as he signs he is guaranteed all 17 game checks right? You don't have be a top 5 player to get the franchise tag though. For instance, the Titans franchised Bo Scaife and he isn't close to a top 5 player so I'm not sure what your point is with that. Every team has a right to protect one guy who they can't come to terms with, but has some greater value. This year it's Dunta for the Texans.

aj.
08-24-2009, 08:33 PM
The minute Dunta signs the tender, the full amount is guaranteed against skill and injury. He could re-rip the hammy in his first practice and he cashes nearly $10 million.

Jackie Chiles
08-24-2009, 08:41 PM
Mario or Schaub or AJ get paid either way. Do you want them to sit out camp to eliminate the risk of getting injured?



On the other hand, if did decide to show up, he might not look lost out there on opening day, or rusty as hell from missing camp. Look for him to get torched for a couple of TDs by the Jets. I swear, I won't have to say a thing. Hell, I won't get a word in edge-wise :heh:

I merely gave you a reason why Dunta is not showing up, I never said I didn't want him here, I very much want him in camp. Regardless his situation is completely different from those guys because they are actually under contract. If they were to sit out they get fined. If Dunta wants the maximum amount of money out of the franchise tag he HAS to show up and play for every single game during the regular season. He doesn't have to show up for the preseason so I ask again, why risk the injury?

I completely agree with your second point, that is another great reason for him to show up to camp asap.

disaacks3
08-24-2009, 08:43 PM
Dude, you keep throwing out there that nobody offered two first round picks for D.Rob. Are you high? :um:


What makes you assume that?


Christ I'm getting tired of having to spell this out...

A "non-exclusive" franchise player must be offered a one-year contract for an amount no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player's position in the previous year, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater. A non-exclusive franchise player may negotiate with other NFL teams, but if he signs an offer sheet from another team, the original team has a right to match the terms of that offer, or if it does not match the offer and thus loses the player, is entitled to receive two first-round draft picks as compensation. So, where were all these GREAT offers that the Texans wouldn't match? There were probably teams that might have considered doing that for Asomugha, but NOT D-Rob. (which is precisely why Aso was set to be an EXCLUSIVE Franchise Tag for the second year in a row before reaching his deal with the Raiders) To extrapolate, that means the Raiders weren't even willing to part with him for TWO first rounders. The Texans, on the other hand would have been more than happy to get two first-rounders for D-Rob.

What makes me assume that the F.O. doesn't really think he's worth 9.965mil in annual salary? I don't know, a loose grip on his relative worth? What makes you think they thought he WAS? Tagging him does NOT equal them feeling he was worth it, only that they had to do it or lose him to free agency after the deal period was over, there isn't any leeway.

Three options:
1) Sign him to a new contract.
2) Tag him
3) Don't tag him, or remove the tag and he's an unrestricted free agent.

If you can't do a deal with D-Rob and his NEW Agent (that's right he got a new one before this fun all started), then you're left w/ options 2 & 3 ONLY. Only option two keeps the Texans "ownership" of D-Rob intact - otherwise he can sign with anybody, for any price, and the Texans don't get to match.

TEXANRED
08-24-2009, 08:54 PM
I don't remember the Dunta-haters coming out of the closet until after he was franchise tagged. I could probably look back via a forum search and find posters whose opinion changed greatly, post-tag.


I wouldn't say I am a hater but I wouldn't say I am a fan of DRobs either. The only thing he is good for is the hard hit and a high lite of him knocking out Marvin Harrison. I more remember him for tripping and falling in the open field and him giving up the deep pass by Collins to lose the game.

He is most definitely not worth top 5 money and he is not worth top 10 money. I would even go so far as to say that he is not worth Chris Gamble money.

What has DRob done in this league other than run his mouth? How many games has he dominated? How many times has he made a game changing play? What has he ever done to alter the course of a game ala Aaron Glenn? How many pro bowels has he been to? Sure he started to show signs 2 years ago, 2. Thats how long its been. And we go off and give him 10 million.

Of course I did predict it and said it would happen. I just didn't know he would sit out. Thats what really bothers me.

forcefollow
08-24-2009, 09:01 PM
I talked to a guy, who knows a guy, who knows Dunta's 3 cousin twice removed. He said and I think he's a legit source, that dunta is laying out of camp to protect his knee and will sign with the Texans the week before the regular season opener. :mcnugget:

Hervoyel
08-24-2009, 09:33 PM
I wouldn't give him his request of not franchising him next season. I'd let him sit out camp, then he can come in late and be the best cornerback on the roster. He's currently degrading the worth of his next contract by not being fully prepared to look to his best ability on tape, so by not being in camp, he hurts his game tape. If he has a fantastic year, franchise him again next year and deal him if someone gives you a first round pick. If they don't, do the same thing to him. Wash, rinse, repeat....there's no crying in football. :chili: (just had to use one of these spiffy new smilies)


That was my position as well but as you know I've got this idea in my head that Dunta is vastly overrated by a talent starved Texans fan base and so I conclude that franchising him this year is a necessity but franchising him next year, not so much. Sure if he suddenly becomes the kind of corner he's never been before then you do what you're advocating but I suspect that this is the year Dunta plays himself completely out of any chance of stupid big-contract money. I don't think that by the end of the 2009 season anybody is going to be saying "We got to franchise Dunta again!"

I question whether he's still even the player he was before the injury.

We'll draft a corner in 2010 in the first round hopefully and try again to find that guy to be our 1. Our 2 will be the best of Reeves, Bennett, or Molden. By the end of this year the best two of those will be our starters. After the draft the lesser of the two starters will sit in favor of the rookie CB.

Long term prognostication hasn't been my strong suit but ever now and then I get one exactly right and this feels right to me.

gary
08-24-2009, 09:35 PM
gary for GM!Lucky, I'd like to see Dunte stay here but first I'd like to see him do the following three things.
1. Play well on the field.
2. Be happy here and get a deal done.
3. Not get hurt.

If he does not do these three things then there isn't any sence in keeping him IMO.

Vinny
08-24-2009, 09:38 PM
That was my position as well but as you know I've got this idea in my head that Dunta is vastly overrated by a talent starved Texans fan base and so I conclude that franchising him this year is a necessity but franchising him next year, not so much. Sure if he suddenly becomes the kind of corner he's never been before then you do what you're advocating but I suspect that this is the year Dunta plays himself completely out of any chance of stupid big-contract money. I don't think that by the end of the 2009 season anybody is going to be saying "We got to franchise Dunta again!"

I question whether he's still even the player he was before the injury.

We'll draft a corner in 2010 in the first round hopefully and try again to find that guy to be our 1. Our 2 will be the best of Reeves, Bennett, or Molden. By the end of this year the best two of those will be our starters. After the draft the lesser of the two starters will sit in favor of the rookie CB.

Long term prognostication hasn't been my strong suit but ever now and then I get one exactly right and this feels right to me.

I donno what is going to happen (long term) either but I do know a couple of things. Dunta will be here, playing for us when the season starts, and without him our corner situation is bleak. At least he allows us to play some credible bump and run. Bennett looked like he can't hang and the new 38 can't press either. The other guys are young, unproven and ready for the toaster. For some reason I have a higher opinion of Dunta's pre injury play than you have. I think he makes a great CB2 and is a super asset as a blitzer covering the slot wr. He makes us much more versatile in our scheme.

Jackie Chiles
08-24-2009, 09:48 PM
I donno what is going to happen (long term) either but I do know a couple of things. Dunta will be here, playing for us when the season starts, and without him our corner situation is bleak. At least he allows us to play some credible bump and run. Bennett looked like he can't hang and the new 38 can't press either. The other guys are young, unproven and ready for the toaster. For some reason I have a higher opinion of Dunta's pre injury play than you have. I think he makes a great CB2 and is a super asset as a blitzer covering the slot wr. He makes us much more versatile in our scheme.

I would love to see us use him as a blitzer this year, it seems like he had great success with that as a rook and then I've hardly seen us try it since. Hardest hit we have ever gotten on Peyton was Dunta coming from his blindside.

eriadoc
08-25-2009, 10:19 AM
For some reason I have a higher opinion of Dunta's pre injury play than you have. I think he makes a great CB2 and is a super asset as a blitzer covering the slot wr. He makes us much more versatile in our scheme.

I do as well, and I know why. First, I've watched it with my own two eyes. Pre-injury, Dunta had all the skills you'd want from a CB. He hadn't put it all together consistently yet, and he isn't top 5, IMO, but he had it and was progressing. Second, Kubiak even said he was thinking Dunta was headed to the Pro Bowl in '07 before he got injured. I've quoted it here before, and people still spout off with the "he's only had one good season" line, ignoring or forgetting the '07 season. He was having his best season ever in '07 before that injury.

If he ever returns to form, I don't know. But pre-injury, the guy was a helluva lot better than most of the posters here give him credit for. Those posters all seem to cling to one play as their defining moment for him. Whatever.

Livid13
08-25-2009, 10:32 AM
So they slapped the franchise tag on him. If he's healthy, he takes away 1/3 of the field. Be happy he's staying. For how long is something for you all to gripe about next season.....

GP
08-25-2009, 10:34 AM
Three options:
1) Sign him to a new contract.
2) Tag him
3) Don't tag him, or remove the tag and he's an unrestricted free agent.

If you can't do a deal with D-Rob and his NEW Agent (that's right he got a new one before this fun all started), then you're left w/ options 2 & 3 ONLY. Only option two keeps the Texans "ownership" of D-Rob intact - otherwise he can sign with anybody, for any price, and the Texans don't get to match.

Bingo.

We don't want him shafting us by walking away and signing with another team for near the amount we would have paid him. I have a hunch that the GM knows that the CB wants out of Houston, due to Dunta begging Smith to promise that he wouldn't tag him again. Is Dunta for real? He just gave away his whole hand in this card game.

He's ours. Nobody else is going to offer adequate compensation for OUR former first round draft choice. Why would we let other teams get OUR first rounder? That was OUR draft pick. When you hit on a draft pick, you kinda' don't like the idea of another team nabbing the guy at the first opportunity.

I really hope that Dunta and his agent and the GM and his team can sit down and work out a strategy that gets him signed and traded...maybe not THIS season, but put it into motion all season and have some teams lined out for the off-season.

He wants to move on. It's pretty obvious to the casual observer that he's not thrilled to be a Texan anymore, no matter how much he claims otherwise.

Tag him to no end if he and his new agent are going to play ball like this.

disaacks3
08-25-2009, 10:43 AM
Heck, I LOVE what Dunta brought to the game. That's my biggest issue right now - too much reference to the PAST tense. I want to see IF he can still bring it for a whole season at 100% post-injury.

This contract snafu notwithstanding - He needed the reps in camp/pre-season in order to:

1. Get up to "game speed".
2. Learn the nuances of the new Defense and his role in it.

The argument has been that he'll be "ready" come Game #1. IMHO - that's just not possible. The best I'm hoping for right now is that he sees the field against the Jets and doesn't give up more than 2 big plays. How many plays do you see where the defensive player "nearly" makes the play? that game of inches it what's being lost every day he's out. The only argument on his behalf I can see right now is that he's avoiding injury in "meaningless games". It's a valid argument, but it certainly isn't what precipitated this whole mess.

Hervoyel
08-25-2009, 11:08 AM
I do as well, and I know why. First, I've watched it with my own two eyes. Pre-injury, Dunta had all the skills you'd want from a CB. He hadn't put it all together consistently yet, and he isn't top 5, IMO, but he had it and was progressing. Second, Kubiak even said he was thinking Dunta was headed to the Pro Bowl in '07 before he got injured. I've quoted it here before, and people still spout off with the "he's only had one good season" line, ignoring or forgetting the '07 season. He was having his best season ever in '07 before that injury.

If he ever returns to form, I don't know. But pre-injury, the guy was a helluva lot better than most of the posters here give him credit for. Those posters all seem to cling to one play as their defining moment for him. Whatever.

Well, I have a pair of eyes as well and mine didn't see what yours did. Pre-injury Dunta was exactly who I remember him to be. Fast but frequently out of position, hard hitting but often failing to wrap his man up. He's been a nice player for us but he's never become the player he wants to be paid like and he wasn't on his way to being that player in 2007 either. Kubiak may have said he was on his way to the Pro Bowl that year but Kubiak says a lot of things that don't mean shit when he's talking to somebody who's sticking a mike in his face. or answering questions following a game (particularly if it's following a beat down of his "kids").

Dunta played in 9 games in 2007 but he was injured in one and didn't finish it so lets call it 8 games.

He had 30 solo (35 total) tackles which is on a pace for 60 (70 total) and that would have been his lowest number of tackles since he got here. He was on a pace for 4 interceptions which is two less than he got as a rookie.

With his wicked speed and insane blitzing ability he'd recorded exactly zero sacks. His rookie season he treated us to three of those.

I'm sorry man but Dunta has had exactly one good season and the rest have been "alright" at best. I've never denied that he's the best we have at his position and I know we need him. I'm not taking a dump on him over this because he isn't in camp though. I'm just being honest about what I think of him as a CB and it comes form years of watching him be "almost" the guy we like to think he is.

Dunta came back from his injury and did pretty much the exact same thing that he did in 2007 though of course stats don't say everything and just like you saw more than the stats would indicate in 2007 I think that the majority of people here (including Dunta I might add) saw less than his 2008 stats would lead you to believe about his play. He's said he was "not 100%" and that he could do better but you know what? His history here says that he's doing just about what he's always done.

I'm done with the topic until he comes back in and proves me completely wrong, get his first Pro Bowl spot, and then signs a long-term contract to lead the Houston secondary to respectability.

I hope that happens. I don't expect it though.

eriadoc
08-25-2009, 11:08 AM
This contract snafu notwithstanding - He needed the reps in camp/pre-season in order to:

1. Get up to "game speed".
2. Learn the nuances of the new Defense and his role in it.

... assuming it's actually a new defense, right?

:brickwall:

Hervoyel
08-25-2009, 11:11 AM
... assuming it's actually a new defense, right?

:brickwall:

This is exactly what I worry about when I worry.

But I'm trying not to worry so it's all good.

Livid13
08-25-2009, 11:12 AM
Well, I have a pair of eyes as well and mine didn't see what yours did. Pre-injury Dunta was exactly who I remember him to be. Fast but frequently out of position, hard hitting but often failing to wrap his man up. He's been a nice player for us but he's never become the player he wants to be paid like and he wasn't on his way to being that player in 2007 either. Kubiak may have said he was on his way to the Pro Bowl that year but Kubiak says a lot of things that don't mean shit when he's talking to somebody who's sticking a mike in his face. or answering questions following a game (particularly if it's following a beat down of his "kids").

Dunta played in 9 games in 2007 but he was injured in one and didn't finish it so lets call it 8 games.

He had 30 solo (35 total) tackles which is on a pace for 60 (70 total) and that would have been his lowest number of tackles since he got here. He was on a pace for 4 interceptions which is two less than he got as a rookie.

With his wicked speed and insane blitzing ability he'd recorded exactly zero sacks. His rookie season he treated us to three of those.

I'm sorry man but Dunta has had exactly one good season and the rest have been "alright" at best. I've never denied that he's the best we have at his position and I know we need him. I'm not taking a dump on him over this because he isn't in camp though. I'm just being honest about what I think of him as a CB and it comes form years of watching him be "almost" the guy we like to think he is.

Dunta came back from his injury and did pretty much the exact same thing that he did in 2007 though of course stats don't say everything and just like you saw more than the stats would indicate in 2007 I think that the majority of people here (including Dunta I might add) saw less than his 2008 stats would lead you to believe about his play. He's said he was "not 100%" and that he could do better but you know what? His history here says that he's doing just about what he's always done.

I'm done with the topic until he comes back in and proves me completely wrong, get his first Pro Bowl spot, and then signs a long-term contract to lead the Houston secondary to respectability.

I hope that happens. I don't expect it though.

That was a good post.

disaacks3
08-25-2009, 11:22 AM
... assuming it's actually a new defense, right?

:brickwall: If it isn't...8-8 is back on the menu. :crying:

Marcus
08-25-2009, 11:32 AM
Well, I have a pair of eyes as well and mine didn't see what yours did. Pre-injury Dunta was exactly who I remember him to be. Fast but frequently out of position, hard hitting but often failing to wrap his man up. He's been a nice player for us but he's never become the player he wants to be paid like and he wasn't on his way to being that player in 2007 either. Kubiak may have said he was on his way to the Pro Bowl that year but Kubiak says a lot of things that don't mean shit when he's talking to somebody who's sticking a mike in his face. or answering questions following a game (particularly if it's following a beat down of his "kids").

Dunta played in 9 games in 2007 but he was injured in one and didn't finish it so lets call it 8 games.

He had 30 solo (35 total) tackles which is on a pace for 60 (70 total) and that would have been his lowest number of tackles since he got here. He was on a pace for 4 interceptions which is two less than he got as a rookie.

With his wicked speed and insane blitzing ability he'd recorded exactly zero sacks. His rookie season he treated us to three of those.

I'm sorry man but Dunta has had exactly one good season and the rest have been "alright" at best. I've never denied that he's the best we have at his position and I know we need him. I'm not taking a dump on him over this because he isn't in camp though. I'm just being honest about what I think of him as a CB and it comes form years of watching him be "almost" the guy we like to think he is.

Dunta came back from his injury and did pretty much the exact same thing that he did in 2007 though of course stats don't say everything and just like you saw more than the stats would indicate in 2007 I think that the majority of people here (including Dunta I might add) saw less than his 2008 stats would lead you to believe about his play. He's said he was "not 100%" and that he could do better but you know what? His history here says that he's doing just about what he's always done.

I'm done with the topic until he comes back in and proves me completely wrong, get his first Pro Bowl spot, and then signs a long-term contract to lead the Houston secondary to respectability.

I hope that happens. I don't expect it though.

Yes, a good post indeed.

Mr teX
08-25-2009, 01:12 PM
The ridiculous stats argument again....:brickwall:

THis is funny. The same people who are saying he's "average" and not worth this or that are worried about him leaving if the FO decides to drop the Franchise tag. If he's not worth what he says he is & he can be easily replaced, what the hell are you all worried about losing him in FA for?

Anybody who saw us against the saints can see what we have out there now isn't going to get it. Bennett looks like certified trash with busted coverage and all kinds of missed tackles - and injury issues of his own. McCain & Quinn clearly aren't ready.

Texecutioner
08-25-2009, 01:44 PM
The ridiculous stats argument again....:brickwall:

THis is funny. The same people who are saying he's "average" and not worth this or that are worried about him leaving if the FO decides to drop the Franchise tag. If he's not worth what he says he is & he can be easily replaced, what the hell are you all worried about losing him in FA for?

Anybody who saw us against the saints can see what we have out there now isn't going to get it. Bennett looks like certified trash with busted coverage and all kinds of missed tackles - and injury issues of his own. McCain & Quinn clearly aren't ready.

So what are you suggesting?? That we give into his demands and pay him all of this money that he isn't worth to where we're strapped for cash in the next few years??? :gun:

Why don't we just take a knife and cut this team's wrist open then?

HOU-TEX
08-25-2009, 01:51 PM
So what are you suggesting?? That we give into his demands and pay him all of this money that he isn't worth to where we're strapped for cash in the next few years??? :gun:

Why don't we just take a knife and cut this team's wrist open then?

I've got an idea. Let's allow him to come in in a couple weeks, sign his 1 year deal, play this season with the Texans and re-evaluate him at season's end. Deal? Deal

It's an outlandish idea, but what the heck

Kaiser Toro
08-25-2009, 01:53 PM
The ridiculous stats argument again....:brickwall:

THis is funny. The same people who are saying he's "average" and not worth this or that are worried about him leaving if the FO decides to drop the Franchise tag. If he's not worth what he says he is & he can be easily replaced, what the hell are you all worried about losing him in FA for?

It really is pretty simple:
1) He has value to us, which I believe most people agree, but it is the degree of value, based on the market, that is being debated, and
2) The Texans FO would be setting up an awful precedent if it were ever to attempt employ the tag again.

Texecutioner
08-25-2009, 01:58 PM
I've got an idea. Let's allow him to come in in a couple weeks, sign his 1 year deal, play this season with the Texans and re-evaluate him at season's end. Deal? Deal

It's an outlandish idea, but what the heck

Well I think that's what's going to happen, and I'm fine with that. The only problem is that he's going to come back out of shape and not be all that effective and also in the coach's dog house for a few weeks most likely. It's going to hurt us and him. He won't be able to get off to a great start for the season, and it will make his negotiating with us or any other team next off season tougher for him actually, since he'll most likely have a very slow start to the season. It's a really pathetic and stupid plan on his part if that's what he ends up doing which I think is his plan.

We'll have a worse off secondary because of it for a few games, and he'll have a slow start. We both lose in the end really.

HTown2ATX
08-25-2009, 02:01 PM
If Dunta came back today I would welcome him! No, he has no effect on how the DT's or LB's play, but he adds a piece that we need in the secondary. All I give a damn about is a winning season. If he doesn't play well, you let him go after the season ends. So, personally, if I were Rick Smith, I would just make the promise that I will not tag him again and at the end of the year cut him or sign him. I know that is not the way that it is supposed to work and that it gives leverage to Dunta, but this could be a hot seat year for Rick Smith IMO. We have to have a winning season this year for jobs to be safe and he knows that. I am a die hard Texans fan and have spent wayyyyyy more money than I should on tickets, merch for me and my family, etc......now it's time to win. Eveytime I look on the Chron.com comments or something, anyone who bitches about us not playing well, etc...are called fairweather. That is lamest BS I have ever heard. I refused to watch ANY football after the Oilers left and I didn't. Now I watch the Texans with passion and damnit it is time to win. Right now!!!! No more "it's just pre-season", blah blah blah. I will no longer accept mediocrity and I hope no one else will.

GO TEXANS!!!

:aggressive:

HOU-TEX
08-25-2009, 02:08 PM
Well I think that's what's going to happen, and I'm fine with that. The only problem is that he's going to come back out of shape and not be all that effective and also in the coach's dog house for a few weeks most likely. It's going to hurt us and him. He won't be able to get off to a great start for the season, and it will make his negotiating with us or any other team next off season tougher for him actually, since he'll most likely have a very slow start to the season. It's a really pathetic and stupid plan on his part if that's what he ends up doing which I think is his plan.

We'll have a worse off secondary because of it for a few games, and he'll have a slow start. We both lose in the end really.

IMO, he'd have to be truly ignorant to come in out of shape in a contract year. Unless of course, you mean out of football shape. Pitts hasn't done anything to get in football shape, yet he'll likely be starting Monday night.

The coaches have hardly anything to do with the business side of players, so why would he be in the coaches dog house?

We can agree about 1 thing. I too, think he should've shown up to get a few reps in a preseason game. He still might, but doubtful.

In the end, he'll be a Texan this season and it's squarely up to him to determine his worth.

Texecutioner
08-25-2009, 02:30 PM
IMO, he'd have to be truly ignorant to come in out of shape in a contract year. Unless of course, you mean out of football shape. Pitts hasn't done anything to get in football shape, yet he'll likely be starting Monday night.

The coaches have hardly anything to do with the business side of players, so why would he be in the coaches dog house?

We can agree about 1 thing. I too, think he should've shown up to get a few reps in a preseason game. He still might, but doubtful.

In the end, he'll be a Texan this season and it's squarely up to him to determine his worth.

Yeah, I meant football shape.

And what I mean by the coach's dog house, he's going to be rusty and hasn't been on the field with this new system. I know that he just plays CB, but I don't see the coaches just throwing him out there right away when he hasn't even gotten any reps in yet. To me, that has all of the conditions for a slow start where he won't exactly be playing all that great. In a contract year that's really dumb from him.

Double Barrel
08-25-2009, 04:02 PM
Regarding the "business model" comment, yes pro football is a business. But, any business can have a tipping point. I believe the Texans have reached that point. The status quo is no longer acceptable for the fans, players, or the owner. Win now, and Houston is the Texan's oyster. An 8th consecutive non-winning seasons will turn this franchise into the 21st century's Cardinals or Saints and cause the fanbase to lose faith. Every decision this organization makes should revolve around winning now.


Booya! Your last statement nails it. Key word, of course, is "should".

I have stated in many posts, and I will re-state it here DB, that I am extremely pissed off that Smith offered him $23 million guaranteed. That was, in my view, a totally ridiculous, Charlie Casserlyish, and stupid offer to make to a CB recovering from a serious injury. But he wasn't a shutdown corner to begin with. Not even near it. Yeah, he made the crowd happy with his hits, but his coverage skills sucked. But this why I'm just blown away by some on here that actually think Smith didn't, or isn't doing the upmost to bring him into camp. So you're going to blame Smith for going back on his word after that dumbass actually turned down that ridiculous offer, an offer that shouldn't have been made to begin with ???

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm not "blaming Smith" for anything/everything. I don't have a dog in this race, and unlike you, I have no emotions tied to the subject. I'm staying objective and letting things play out how they will play out.

I was just commenting on the disconnect in fans like you. :)

Christ I'm getting tired of having to spell this out...

So, where were all these GREAT offers that the Texans wouldn't match? There were probably teams that might have considered doing that for Asomugha, but NOT D-Rob. (which is precisely why Aso was set to be an EXCLUSIVE Franchise Tag for the second year in a row before reaching his deal with the Raiders) To extrapolate, that means the Raiders weren't even willing to part with him for TWO first rounders. The Texans, on the other hand would have been more than happy to get two first-rounders for D-Rob.

What makes me assume that the F.O. doesn't really think he's worth 9.965mil in annual salary? I don't know, a loose grip on his relative worth? What makes you think they thought he WAS? Tagging him does NOT equal them feeling he was worth it, only that they had to do it or lose him to free agency after the deal period was over, there isn't any leeway.

Three options:
1) Sign him to a new contract.
2) Tag him
3) Don't tag him, or remove the tag and he's an unrestricted free agent.

If you can't do a deal with D-Rob and his NEW Agent (that's right he got a new one before this fun all started), then you're left w/ options 2 & 3 ONLY. Only option two keeps the Texans "ownership" of D-Rob intact - otherwise he can sign with anybody, for any price, and the Texans don't get to match.

You never answered if you were high or not....judging from this post, I'm going with you just smoked something funny.

See, I'm not a talent evaluator, and I'm pretty sure that you're not, either. The difference between us, though, is that I don't play one on message boards.

The fact remains that the Texans made a very generous offer to D.Rob that would indicate a value that they have for him. He turned it down and they franchise tagged him as a result. They OBVIOUSLY want to keep him on the team, at least for the 2009 season.

You can accept the above paragraph as factual, yes?

What you offer is nothing but emotion-based speculation, and as such, I'm not going to get sucked into your circular logic vortex.

I honestly don't care, and will not care unless D.Rob is not on the field for the Jets game on September 13.

gary
08-25-2009, 04:49 PM
Well I think that's what's going to happen, and I'm fine with that. The only problem is that he's going to come back out of shape and not be all that effective and also in the coach's dog house for a few weeks most likely. It's going to hurt us and him. He won't be able to get off to a great start for the season, and it will make his negotiating with us or any other team next off season tougher for him actually, since he'll most likely have a very slow start to the season. It's a really pathetic and stupid plan on his part if that's what he ends up doing which I think is his plan.

We'll have a worse off secondary because of it for a few games, and he'll have a slow start. We both lose in the end really.In one post you say you don't think Houston should him the tender money but in another you you'd be fine with Dunte signing the one year tender.

TimeKiller
08-25-2009, 05:01 PM
Who else will be thrilled with a resolution, any resolution?

Me.

PapaL
08-25-2009, 05:09 PM
Who else will be thrilled with a resolution, any resolution?

Me.

I'll be happy to end all these threads.

Just Win Baby. Just win.

disaacks3
08-25-2009, 05:19 PM
See, I'm not a talent evaluator, and I'm pretty sure that you're not, either. The difference between us, though, is that I don't play one on message boards.

The fact remains that the Texans made a very generous offer to D.Rob that would indicate a value that they have for him. He turned it down and they franchise tagged him as a result. They OBVIOUSLY want to keep him on the team, at least for the 2009 season.

You can accept the above paragraph as factual, yes?

What you offer is nothing but emotion-based speculation, and as such, I'm not going to get sucked into your circular logic vortex.

I offered the facts, you offer speculation and I'm the one smoking something funny?? WTH?

Exactly WHAT was the VERY GENEROUS offer that D-Rob turned down? You aren't speculating, only offereing facts remember? What was the signing bonus? What was the base salary per year? (Hint - this means I don't accept your paragraph as factual.)

I'm not in a circular-logic vortex, I stated that as a non-exclusive franchise tendered player, other teams could offer D-Rob a contract (which the Texans would have the right to match), or the Texans get two 1st rounders in return. If the Texans weren't willing to part with him under ANY circumstance, all they had to do was make it an exclusive tender, which they didn't do.

You act as if it had never been done, and I pointed out that not only had it been done, but it was done to someone at the CB position no less. By extrapolation, that means that the Texans do NOT value his services as highly as the Raiders valued Asomugha.

So, as much as I (or any other fan love D-Rob) - to the F.O., he's not above potentially trading away for two 1st rounders. So, who's playing the talent evaluator again?

C'mon DB - I love the guy, I love what he brings to the table - I always have. I just think the current situation sucks and he's doing himself a disservice by not coming in to get the reps he'd need even IF they had been in the "new" system for several years and IF he'd finished last year at 100% (which, by his own admission, he wasn't).

Marcus
08-25-2009, 05:20 PM
Booya! Your last statement nails it. Key word, of course, is "should".



I'm not "blaming Smith" for anything/everything. I don't have a dog in this race, and unlike you, I have no emotions tied to the subject. I'm staying objective and letting things play out how they will play out.

I was just commenting on the disconnect in fans like you. :)



You never answered if you were high or not....judging from this post, I'm going with you just smoked something funny.

See, I'm not a talent evaluator, and I'm pretty sure that you're not, either. The difference between us, though, is that I don't play one on message boards.

The fact remains that the Texans made a very generous offer to D.Rob that would indicate a value that they have for him. He turned it down and they franchise tagged him as a result. They OBVIOUSLY want to keep him on the team, at least for the 2009 season.

You can accept the above paragraph as factual, yes?

What you offer is nothing but emotion-based speculation, and as such, I'm not going to get sucked into your circular logic vortex.

I honestly don't care, and will not care unless D.Rob is not on the field for the Jets game on September 13.

:shades: So who pissed in your Wheaties there Mr. High and Mighty. I guess the next time someone wants to offer their opinion on something, should we check you first?

Wolf
08-25-2009, 05:24 PM
I honestly am not worrying about it ..I guess I got used to stuff like this with the Clemens thing for the Astros.


If he is here, he is here.. The games go on.

Sure I would like him to be ready, but hell haven't really seen him much the last 2 years so one more year isn't going to bother me any

IF the Texans could do something I wish we could trade him for a safety or something and end it.

ChampionTexan
08-25-2009, 05:42 PM
Well I think that's what's going to happen, and I'm fine with that. The only problem is that he's going to come back out of shape and not be all that effective and also in the coach's dog house for a few weeks most likely. It's going to hurt us and him. He won't be able to get off to a great start for the season, and it will make his negotiating with us or any other team next off season tougher for him actually, since he'll most likely have a very slow start to the season. It's a really pathetic and stupid plan on his part if that's what he ends up doing which I think is his plan.

We'll have a worse off secondary because of it for a few games, and he'll have a slow start. We both lose in the end really.

That's actually the viewpoint I was taking of it, but as I think about it, I don't think him showing up late is going to have any negative effect on Dunta.

I was listening to an interview with Peyton Manning in which he commented that after sitting out all of TC and the Colts pre-season games in 2008 (due to injury), it took him till about game 6 regular season games (approx. the same amount of time as TC and the pre-season) to feel like he was back to form. Let's assume for a second that Dunta is on the same timetable (and I think that's conservative due to CB's likely not taking as long as a QB to get in sync).

Everyone who might be interested in Dunta knows that he's a holdout this year, and they know that if they sign him in the offseason, he will absolutely not be a holdout while he's under contract. Therefore, if they see a difference between the first 6 games Dunta plays and the last 10, they're gonna completely ignore the first six, and completely focus on the last 10 because they'll know what caused the slow start, and they'll know they won't have to deal with it.

Two things that might impact that. The first is an injury early in the season, as it seems like often times a "holdout" player seems more susceptible to going down. The second thing that might impact this is if Dunta never grasps the new system enough to completely play to his potential, but I'm getting the strong feeling that there's not enough difference between this year's scheme and last year's scheme (particlularly for a CB) for it to matter.

Of course if the Texans franchise him again, it's all moot, but we're talking about establishing market value.

Double Barrel
08-25-2009, 05:46 PM
:shades: So who pissed in your Wheaties there Mr. High and Mighty. I guess the next time someone wants to offer their opinion on something, should we check you first?

LOL! Whatever are you talking about? I'm the last thing from high and mighty. Mr. Low and Apathetic is more like it (at least as it relates to an entertainment medium).

I could honestly care less if you offer your opinion. Just know that if you decide to quote me, then I will reply accordingly. See, that's how a message board works.

Glad you could take time from your pissing contest to make some meaningless point about me. I feel so...special. :dancer:

Please, by all means, don't waste anymore time with me. The Texans FO is calling for your valuable insight to their operations and football talent.

Double Barrel
08-25-2009, 06:00 PM
I offered the facts, you offer speculation and I'm the one smoking something funny?? WTH?

Exactly WHAT was the VERY GENEROUS offer that D-Rob turned down? You aren't speculating, only offereing facts remember? What was the signing bonus? What was the base salary per year? (Hint - this means I don't accept your paragraph as factual.)

I'm not in a circular-logic vortex, I stated that as a non-exclusive franchise tendered player, other teams could offer D-Rob a contract (which the Texans would have the right to match), or the Texans get two 1st rounders in return. If the Texans weren't willing to part with him under ANY circumstance, all they had to do was make it an exclusive tender, which they didn't do.

You act as if it had never been done, and I pointed out that not only had it been done, but it was done to someone at the CB position no less. By extrapolation, that means that the Texans do NOT value his services as highly as the Raiders valued Asomugha.

So, as much as I (or any other fan love D-Rob) - to the F.O., he's not above potentially trading away for two 1st rounders. So, who's playing the talent evaluator again?


Sorry, man, didn't see your post before.

I was JOKING about the high comment. Sometimes humor is allowed, but not always accepted. :)

All I was saying is what we believe we know to be facts.

But you keep bringing to the conversation the unreasonable expectation of any team offering two first round picks for a player. Like I said before, I can only think of two players in the NFL that might be considered worthy of that offer. Why do you keep bringing it up? It proves nothing. So, to continue with this line of thinking does invite a circular logic maze. That's all I was pointing out. (btw, has ANY team actually used this clause of offering two first round picks for a franchised player?)

Riddle me this: Did the Texans make a generous offer of $23 million guaranteed or not? It seem to be pretty well accepted around these parts as fact. And I'm pretty sure that you're operating under that impression, as well.

If not, then by all means, enlighten us as to why we should not believe that this offer was made.

C'mon DB - I love the guy, I love what he brings to the table - I always have. I just think the current situation sucks and he's doing himself a disservice by not coming in to get the reps he'd need even IF they had been in the "new" system for several years and IF he'd finished last year at 100% (which, by his own admission, he wasn't).

I don't disagree with you...which makes me wonder what we're talking about here. :um:

I suppose I could go back, but that would require a lot more effort than I really wish to provide on this topic. :brando:

Honestly, I'm just trying to have fun with y'all, and while we can speculate and hand wring, none of this really matters until we see his performance on September 13 (assuming he's playing).

Must be football season when otherwise reasonable folks start nitpicking and gettin' all crazy on ya'!!
:shades: (another joke, man, calm down)

Lucky
08-25-2009, 07:50 PM
(btw, has ANY team actually used this clause of offering two first round picks for a franchised player?)
I believe the Panthers (when Dom Capers was head coach) signed a tagged Sean Gilbert, and the Redskins picked up 2 1st round picks.

No team gave Julius Peppers an offer sheet this year. No team gave gave Albert Haynesworth an offer sheet in 2008. I guess that means they suck and aren't franchise players. The Panthers and Titans didn't even use the exclusive tag. So, I guess they really didn't want those guys, either.

No team coughs up a mega-contract and two 1st round picks unless it's for a franchise QB. To continue to bring up that Dunta did not receive a offer sheet is meaningless to this situation.