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Texecutioner
08-08-2009, 08:06 PM
The Rev. Jesse Jackson became the latest public figure to offer an opinion on the future of Michael Vick. Jackson said he wondered whether there had been collusion among N.F.L. owners to keep Vick out of the league.
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“I want to make it an issue,” Jackson said Thursday in a telephone interview. “I want teams to explain why they have a quarterback who has less skills but is playing or at least is on the taxi squad, and a guy with more skills can’t get into training camp.”

Two years ago this month, Vick pleaded guilty to felony charges related to his participation in an unlawful dogfighting ring and was indefinitely suspended from the N.F.L. Vick was sentenced to 23 months in federal prison in December 2007.

He was conditionally reinstated to the league last month by Commissioner Roger Goodell. Under terms of the reinstatement, Vick can take part in preseason practices, workouts and meetings and may play in the final two preseason games — if a team signs him.

When the season begins, Vick may participate in all team activities except games. Goodell said he would consider Vick for full reinstatement by Week 6.

“Democracy does not guarantee success,” Jackson said. “Democracy guarantees an opportunity. It’s not fair to de facto try to lock him out of his right to compete. If he can’t make the team, don’t let him play. If he can, let him work.”

Jackson, born in 1941, has been a civil rights activist for most of his adult life. He said that in some ways, Vick’s attempt to re-enter the N.F.L. was similar to Jackie Robinson’s entering Major League Baseball.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/sports/football/08rhoden.html?_r=2


When will this pathetic form of human bacteria somehow die off?

Here he is trying to create racial tension again, and using Vick as a subject for it. Comparing him to Jackie Robinson? Really? Like I've said time and time again, racism is a business and a venture to guys like Jackson, Sharpton, and Watkins.

Ckw
08-08-2009, 09:12 PM
Here he is trying to create racial tension again, and using Vick as a subject for it. Comparing him to Jackie Robinson? Really? Like I've said time and time again, racism is a business and a venture to guys like Jackson, Sharpton, and Watkins.

Sad, but true. :wild:

gtexan02
08-08-2009, 09:20 PM
“I want to make it an issue,” Jackson said Thursday in a telephone interview. “I want teams to explain why they have a quarterback who has less skills but is playing or at least is on the taxi squad, and a guy with more skills can’t get into training camp.”

lol. How about the PR *hitstorm that would hit if a team decided to sign him?

gary
08-08-2009, 09:35 PM
What does he have to do with football? Zero. Here we go again playing the race card like he always does. Stop making this business. We all know he just wants to be covered on the radio and T.V. aka Jackson Lee. Who else should speak out for? I say just shutup and let people fend on their own and let them speak out if they choose to JMO.

Fred
08-08-2009, 09:45 PM
Jackson, born in 1941, has been a civil rights activist for most of his adult life. He said that in some ways, Vick’s attempt to re-enter the N.F.L. was similar to Jackie Robinson’s entering Major League Baseball.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/sports/football/08rhoden.html?_r=2


When will this pathetic form of human bacteria somehow die off?

Here he is trying to create racial tension again, and using Vick as a subject for it. Comparing him to Jackie Robinson? Really? Like I've said time and time again, racism is a business and a venture to guys like Jackson, Sharpton, and Watkins.
So, Jackie Robinson organized and financed a major interstate felony criminal conspiracy involving incredible brutality for six years and then went straight into the major leagues after two years in prison? Wow, I am always learning something new from Jesse Jackson.

Texaninlild
08-08-2009, 10:16 PM
Uhhh...so the NFL is racist? I think all 32 teams missed that memo to keep the black man out of football. I think Asians should be raising hell!!

Hervoyel
08-08-2009, 10:29 PM
I think the NFL just doesn't want to bring him in because he's clearly been a turd. He did this stuff, he lied about doing it, he told one of their fellow owners that he was being honest with him and then was proven to have been a lying turd.

I have advocated the idea of signing him to a contract to "rehabilitate" him as a player and a person but clearly the NFL owners have decided to wash their hands of Michael Vick and I can find no fault in that. It's easy for me as a fan to say "I think that with time and work he could be an asset that might have value down the road" but they are clearly far more informed than I am where this is concerned and have much more at stake. It's not even so much that to offend one is to offend all. The thing is that they all operate their teams under the watchful eye of the same commissioner and he's made it clear that it's a bad time to be trying to play in the NFL for turds. I disagree with Goodell on so many things but I can't find a lot of fault in his crusade to check the worst of the player/turds. It's something that's been a long time coming.

I think Vick is really done in the NFL.

Specnatz
08-08-2009, 10:52 PM
Jessie Jackson is why we have racial issues.

MojoMan
08-08-2009, 11:10 PM
Again with the race card. This really has become tedious. It is as if he purchased one of those novelty decks of playing cards that consists entirely of one card. In this case, the race card.

I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every issue appears to be a nail.

Vick will probably get another chance in the NFL. If he does not, he has no one to blame but himself. None of these teams owe him anything.

Texan JBZ
08-08-2009, 11:29 PM
Individuals evaluating Michael Vick are not simply focused on how far Vick can throw a football; they are also focused on how many fans will fill the stands. Vick has one advantage in that many hardcore football fans are actually beer drinking carnivores who couldn't care less about PETA. On the other hand, the team owner has to worry about the PR problems of having protesters distracting the fans as they try to enter the stadium. The decision to sign Michael Vick is a complicated one, and if he were any less talented, the answer would probably be "no".

The bottom line is this: Michael Vick needs to change his life dramatically. He has a valuable brand name that can be used to make money in certain elements of our society. He is a talented athlete, but he must also realize that changing the folks around him is absolutely essential to getting his career back on track.


Yeah Texecutioner, this sounds exactly like something Jesse Jackson would say. Learn more about Dr. Boyce Watkins before you group him in with Jackson and Sharpton. He fights hard for Black people, but he's also critical of certain aspects of Black society too. Educate yourself more and open your mind up.

As far as Vick, he's served his debt to society and hopefully he'll get another shot in the NFL. It's definitely not a matter of discrimination. It's more of a matter of dealing with sponsors and protestors and the whole ESPN media circus that will follow Vick wherever he goes. I do believe a team will give him shot this season. Good luck to the guy, but this has nothing to do with anyone discriminating against Vick. Just treat Jesse like most Black people treat - a yield sign. You notice it but you really pay no attention to it at all.

eriadoc
08-09-2009, 12:01 AM
Maybe Vick is only being discriminated against by dog owners. And maybe all the NFL owners are also dog owners.

:spy:

Texecutioner
08-09-2009, 01:40 PM
Yeah Texecutioner, this sounds exactly like something Jesse Jackson would say. Learn more about Dr. Boyce Watkins before you group him in with Jackson and Sharpton. He fights hard for Black people, but he's also critical of certain aspects of Black society too. Educate yourself more and open your mind up.

Watkins is nothing but a Jesse JR. in training. A new school version of these types of racist politicians that use race to keep themselves relevant and to make money. Watkins also tries to bash his own people. You just get fooled by the guy, that's all.

As far as Vick, he's served his debt to society and hopefully he'll get another shot in the NFL. It's definitely not a matter of discrimination. It's more of a matter of dealing with sponsors and protestors and the whole ESPN media circus that will follow Vick wherever he goes. I do believe a team will give him shot this season. Good luck to the guy, but this has nothing to do with anyone discriminating against Vick. Just treat Jesse like most Black people treat - a yield sign. You notice it but you really pay no attention to it at all.

Someone will eventually sign Vick. But like I've said for a while now. He's just going to be a marginal player from now on. He'll never be an NFL starter now as a QB.

Koolaid Time
08-09-2009, 04:34 PM
There were protesters at Falcons Training Camp Friday with these same sort of signs..

"Re-sign Vick" etc.

If Vick wants to play Pro Football this year, IMO he should have moved to Canada as soon as he got off Probation.

ObsiWan
08-09-2009, 05:08 PM
Actually I wonder about the motive of the person that started this thread.

I wouldn't have noticed it. And it doesn't appear that many (if any) other of the Black folks on this MB even knew Jesse had anything to say on the Vick matter. Although, now that I saw the article, I'm not surprised. Jesse's just another politician looking for some reason to have the spotlight on him. Nothing more.

imatexan
08-09-2009, 05:35 PM
Can someone tell me what he has ever ACTUALLY done that his positive!?
And not one of the people he was "affiliated" with.

Specnatz
08-09-2009, 06:07 PM
I got a question, growing up I went to a private Lutheran school for two years 4th and 5th grade and we to the gentilman who stood before us on Sunday as a preacher and Reverend. Exactly what church, if any does Jesse Jackson preform Sunday services at? And does his wife and mistress attend the same church?

awtysst
08-09-2009, 06:12 PM
Jessie Jackson lost any credibility he had years ago. He is a joke, disgrace, a distraction, and ultimately a deterrent to the causes he claims to support.

Second Honeymoon
08-09-2009, 06:13 PM
Please go away, Jesse.

the NFL is free enterprise and no owner wants to take the PR hit of hiring a inhumane felon to lead their franchise. you can't affirmative action felons, Jesse. If there is a guy who isn't a felon and a guy that is, guess who gets the job in real lie, Jesse? You guessed it, the guy without the felony.

Maybe if Jesse actually had to earn a paycheck like the rest of us, he would understand basic employment principles like that. not everyone can be subsidized by PAC groups and basically live on 'activist' welfare.

I know some of our posters are not huge fans of Obama, but at least the guy is a good role model and true advocate for change in the black community. I like Obama and the actual respect he has for the office of the presidency. Talking heads like Jackson and Sharpton only perpetuate the problems, imho of course. We need more advocates for change like Wyclef and Bill Cosby. They want to empower people and expect more from each other and their community, not play the blame game.

TEXANRED
08-09-2009, 06:49 PM
Oh Jessie. Your stand up act is old but still just as funny. Hey your fly is open.

Texecutioner
08-09-2009, 11:28 PM
Actually I wonder about the motive of the person that started this thread.

My motive is to bring this article to attention to show just another example of what a fraud Jackson is with the way he carves up new ways to make himself relevant using race as a crutch to do it at the expense of racial relations in this country. I'm sick of hearing about Vick period. I don't think he's going to be anything more than a marginal player at this point and yet this guy is talked about like he's the current Adrian Peterson and he hasn't played in two seasons. Now Jesse is trying to poke his nose in this once again and act like he's being victimized somehow on the basis of race and plant the seeds of that being a case here so he can find an angle to use against the NFL for money and exposure for himself. Vick's already caused enough embarrassment to the NFL and himself, and really he doesn't need some politician like Jackson stirring the pot and trying to create racial matters through the media. No one will benefit anything from that except for him possibly and Vick sure as hell won't. If anything it might make it harder for teams to want to sign Vick because now he's got guys like Jackson throwing his name around everywhere.

Giant Tiger
08-10-2009, 06:55 AM
lol. How about the PR *hitstorm that would hit if a team decided to sign him?

That's why he has to play in the CFL first before any team will look at him. Winnipeg has QB problems... question is how desperate are they?

TimeKiller
08-10-2009, 07:40 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAaaaaaaa

because there is some other reason than the dog fighting ring. Oh, it must be because his skin color is only about 80% of the current NFL roster....

If Vick was a white running back maybe this would fly.

Listening to Jesse Jackson < Eating dog shit covered in baby puke

Koolaid Time
08-10-2009, 07:46 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAaaaaaaa

because there is some other reason than the dog fighting ring. Oh, it must be because his skin color is only about 80% of the current NFL roster....

If Vick was a white running back maybe this would fly.

Listening to Jesse Jackson < Eating dog shit covered in baby puke

Watching the Tacks-Bills game last night, they had Tony Dungee on, who the Commissioner appointed as Vick's "Mentor."

Dungee says he expects Vick to be signed "soon"-- but he didn't really express a time frame. It will be likely on last cuts of Camp, where some team needs a backup and he is better than anyone else available.

Texan JBZ
08-10-2009, 11:34 AM
Watkins is nothing but a Jesse JR. in training. A new school version of these types of racist politicians that use race to keep themselves relevant and to make money. Watkins also tries to bash his own people. You just get fooled by the guy, that's all.

This is off topic, but I just get tired of this guy coming out with false statements about a guy he obviously doesn't follow. First, Watkins is a professor and not a politician. Secondly, if anyone thinks that Dr. Watkins, one of the most respected minds in all of America, is "nothing but a Jesse JR. in training" then watch this:

http://blip.tv/file/2437287

Yeah, that's the Jesse Jackson type of speech we're used to hearing right?

Texecutioner
08-10-2009, 12:54 PM
This is off topic, but I just get tired of this guy coming out with false statements about a guy he obviously doesn't follow. First, Watkins is a professor and not a politician. Secondly, if anyone thinks that Dr. Watkins, one of the most respected minds in all of America, is "nothing but a Jesse JR. in training" then watch this:

http://blip.tv/file/2437287




Of course you don't think he is JBZ. You agree with all of this stuff and that's exactly what he wants you to do. That's how Watkins stays relevant and continues his career by stirring the pot and the worst part about him is that he tries to reach the young crowds and start them off early. He wrote a freaking book called "If George Bush were black." If that doesn't scream "I'm stirring the pot," I don't know what else does.

As a matter of fact Watkins has caused so much negative attention to himself and his University from stirring the pot in racial matters that he was recently fired. And guess who he blames for that? Bill O Reilly. Lol! Surely it couldn't have had anything to do with him running around all over the country calling every institution racist that he could find.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/14/731613/-Dr.-Boyce-Watkins-dismissed

Here is where he calls Juan WIlliams a "Happy Negro" on television and blasts the guy for no reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaM3BpXrduc&feature=related

Here is some typical "spin" garbage where he's trying to call the Transformers movie "racist."

http://www.bvblackspin.com/2009/06/25/dr-boyce-yes-the-transformers-movie-was-quite-racist/

Here is a write up from ole Watkins where he has the adacity to stick up for Pac Man Jones and blasts off on the Duke Lacrosse Players ala Al Sharpton. He also blasts The South as a whole.Then towards the end makes the allegation that Duke University as a whole is a racist institution.

http://www.omgn.com/nexus/?p=775

Here is where he accuses the NCAA of being racist or trying to just get rich off of college athletes, completely refusing to become aware that all college athletes aren't black.

http://www.bvonmoney.com/2009/08/04/ncaa-paying-college-athletes/


Here is where he calls all college universities fundamentally racist even though he was employed by one. Lol!

http://emergingminds.org/OpEd-Why-American-Universities-are-Fundamentally-Racist.html


Sorry JBZ, but you don't have a leg to stand on to suggest that this guy's one of the brightest minds in the country. He's very bright at trying to stir the pot and create racial controversy in any way he can.

HOU-TEX
08-10-2009, 01:07 PM
Any thread with Jessie Jackson's name in it belongs in the NSZ. That is my opinion, of course.

Texan4Ever
08-10-2009, 01:10 PM
Al Sharpton is a complete jackass and people like him and Quanell X from Houston deserve to get there ass kicked! :bat:

Vick DOES NOT deserve to be allowed back into the NFL, he deserves a lifetime ban and should not be allowed to even attend games IMO. He is a jerk who, GOD willing, will burn in hell for his deeds.

swtbound07
08-10-2009, 01:14 PM
Al Sharpton is a complete jackass and people like him and Quanell X from Houston deserve to get there ass kicked! :bat:

Vick DOES NOT deserve to be allowed back into the NFL, he deserves a lifetime ban and should not be allowed to even attend games IMO. He is a jerk who, GOD willing, will burn in hell for his deeds.

He's a guy who screwed up and deserves a second chance. Hell doesn't exist, he still has skills as a qb, and they are just dogs. Agreed on Al Sharpton. I'd pay money to watch vick play a game. He hasn't killed any people. Stallworth has. Little has. They can still play. I don't see the egregiousness of his crimes.

Texan JBZ
08-10-2009, 01:21 PM
I really wanted to see what other posters thought about Dr. Watkins. But here's a nice tidbit for you. You're obviously a right-winger and are very schooled on what it means to be Black in America, so you obviously know exactly who Dr. Marc Lamont Hill is, right? Since you don't, go and Google him real quick. Now, do I agree with all of Dr. Hill's views? Hell no, but I do respect some of them. Even Dr. Hill says this about Dr. Watkins: "Boyce Watkins is one of the greatest minds of our time." Care to disagree with him too? Well, go and see what Dr. Cornell West or any other intellectual thinks about Dr. Watkins.

Texecutioner
08-10-2009, 01:26 PM
I really wanted to see what other posters thought about Dr. Watkins. But here's a nice tidbit for you. You're obviously a right-winger and are very schooled on what it means to be Black in America, so you obviously know exactly who Dr. Marc Lamont Hill is, right? Since you don't, go and Google him real quick. Now, do I agree with all of Dr. Hill's views? Hell no, but I do respect some of them. Even Dr. Hill says this about Dr. Watkins: "Boyce Watkins is one of the greatest minds of our time." Care to disagree with him too? Well, go and see what Dr. Cornell West or any other intellectual thinks about Dr. Watkins.

Cornel West has been trying to create racial controversy for a very long time as well. Him and Watkins are two peas in a pod.

Lamont Hill is a lot more respected guy. I've seen him on shows quite a bit actually, and although I pretty much don't ever agree with him, I wouldn't put him in the same boat as Watkins or West. He's a lot more respectable and makes better arguments without throwing out so many ridiculous allegations like Watkins does. Well at least he hasn't in the instances where I've heard him debate someone or give his take. And as far as him giving a compliment to or about Watkins? What the hell does that prove? That's his buddy and they show up and speak to one another at conferences a lot. That's no surprise. But that doesn't change any of the facts of Watkins own words and allegations he's made in all of those links that I just posted. He was just fired for causing to much racial controversy at Syracuse.

Texan JBZ
08-10-2009, 01:26 PM
Al Sharpton is a complete jackass and people like him and Quanell X from Houston deserve to get there ass kicked! :bat:

Vick DOES NOT deserve to be allowed back into the NFL, he deserves a lifetime ban and should not be allowed to even attend games IMO. He is a jerk who, GOD willing, will burn in hell for his deeds.

I think that's a bit to drastic, don't you think? I mean, it's not like the guy was running a child porn ring. I understand how some people feel about dogs, so I'm not going to delve into that. But the guy has served his debt to society. Should his mistake be held over his head forever? Burning in hell for dog fighting? Wow! To me, there's a lot of worse things he could have done to bring about that sort of reaction. To each his own I guess.

Texecutioner
08-10-2009, 01:30 PM
I think that's a bit to drastic, don't you think? I mean, it's not like the guy was running a child porn ring. I understand how some people feel about dogs, so I'm not going to delve into that. But the guy has served his debt to society. Should his mistake be held over his head forever? Burning in hell for dog fighting? Wow! To me, there's a lot of worse things he could have done to bring about that sort of reaction. To each his own I guess.

I agree with this.

chicagotexan2
08-10-2009, 01:36 PM
It so easy to make a living by inciting instead of inspiring.

nunusguy
08-10-2009, 01:39 PM
Jackson is desparate for attention, but the new, young Prez has just made the likes of him and others like Sharpton tired, old redundant black figures on todays national political stage.

nero THE zero
08-10-2009, 01:40 PM
Yeah Texecutioner, this sounds exactly like something Jesse Jackson would say. Learn more about Dr. Boyce Watkins before you group him in with Jackson and Sharpton. He fights hard for Black people, but he's also critical of certain aspects of Black society too. Educate yourself more and open your mind up.

As far as Vick, he's served his debt to society and hopefully he'll get another shot in the NFL. It's definitely not a matter of discrimination. It's more of a matter of dealing with sponsors and protestors and the whole ESPN media circus that will follow Vick wherever he goes. I do believe a team will give him shot this season. Good luck to the guy, but this has nothing to do with anyone discriminating against Vick. Just treat Jesse like most Black people treat - a yield sign. You notice it but you really pay no attention to it at all.

I don't get the whole "paid his debt to society" schtick.

Just because he served his prison sentence doesn't mean he's free and clear to re-enter society unblimished. The guy is a convicted felon. In our society, once you have been convicted of a felony there are numerous rights and opportunities that are no longer afforded to you. In a number of states convicted felons are no longer allowed to vote. In a number of businesses, convicted felons are automatically disqualified from employment.

The NFL doesn't have an explicit rule as such. But, the idea that Vick has "paid his debt to society" and is now absolved from his past is a terribly flawed one. Just because he did jail time doesn't mean he should be automatically forgiven and signed.

alphajoker
08-10-2009, 01:41 PM
Jesse Jackson is an *****!

:includeme:

Texan JBZ
08-10-2009, 01:53 PM
I don't get the whole "paid his debt to society" schtick.

Just because he served his prison sentence doesn't mean he's free and clear to re-enter society unblimished. The guy is a convicted felon. In our society, once you have been convicted of a felony there are numerous rights and opportunities that are no longer afforded to you. In a number of states convicted felons are no longer allowed to vote. In a number of businesses, convicted felons are automatically disqualified from employment.

The NFL doesn't have an explicit rule as such. But, the idea that Vick has "paid his debt to society" and is now absolved from his past is a terribly flawed one. Just because he did jail time doesn't mean he should be automatically forgiven and signed.

So what does it mean to you then? America is a country of second chances. Just because the guy made a horrible mistake, should he now be forever restricted from trying to make a living? And you're second paragraph speaks to a larger social problem which I have a problem with. People can make mistakes in their youth and truly try to make amends for their shortcomings later in life. Why not give them at least a chance too? My answer speaks to a larger social problem, but it has nothing to do with this thread so it's not worth the discussion here.

TimeKiller
08-10-2009, 02:12 PM
Watching the Tacks-Bills game last night, they had Tony Dungee on, who the Commissioner appointed as Vick's "Mentor."

Dungee says he expects Vick to be signed "soon"-- but he didn't really express a time frame. It will be likely on last cuts of Camp, where some team needs a backup and he is better than anyone else available.
So not only has Vick been allowed to re-enter (albeit in a structured, presumably well-thought out fashion) but he's LIKELY to play somewhere this year according to a person everyone trusts in NFL circles. I might go so far as to say Jesse Jackson lives in a god damn hole because he's got no ****ing clue. I know it's hard Jesse, to sit still and not point the grand finger of racism in every direction you can but it seems like this matter is resolving itself without ANY talk of color. Keep that finger pointing you ignorant mother ****er.

Al Sharpton is a complete jackass and people like him and Quanell X from Houston deserve to get there ass kicked! :bat:

Vick DOES NOT deserve to be allowed back into the NFL, he deserves a lifetime ban and should not be allowed to even attend games IMO. He is a jerk who, GOD willing, will burn in hell for his deeds.
You pray to a very vengeful God.

I don't get the whole "paid his debt to society" schtick.

Just because he served his prison sentence doesn't mean he's free and clear to re-enter society unblEmished.
UnblEmished? Are you kidding? He just spent 19 months in jail friend. Chances are he got a "blemish" or two.

The guy is a convicted felon. I guess that doesn't count as a blemish? In our society, once you have been convicted of a felony there are numerous rights and opportunities that are no longer afforded to you. Blemish In a number of states convicted felons are no longer allowed to vote. In a number of businesses, convicted felons are automatically disqualified from employment.Blemishing blemishes

The NFL doesn't have an explicit rule as such. But, the idea that Vick has "paid his debt to society" and is now absolved from his past is a terribly flawed one. Just because he did jail time doesn't mean he should be automatically forgiven and signed.
The NFL doesn't have a rule about dog fighting because it doesn't have one for drunk driving murderers or drug abusers either. Absolved from his past? No no no, I think you're terribly missing the mark here. His debt to society was time, in the form of imprisonment. In his return, aside from all the things you mentioned, the ones I'm about to and the things we probably forgot, do you think there is anyone he can talk to or anywhere he can go that he won't be recognized and most likely treated differently because of what he did? You think OJ just walked out of the court room and everything was still peachy.....or juicy?

Hervoyel
08-10-2009, 02:13 PM
Vick has paid the penalty that our society has determined he owed for his crime. Everyone has their opinion on literally everything but we should all be grateful that others opinions aren't enforceble laws. You may not think that he should be able to play football again but that's for the NFL to decide. You may think he should pay forever but the law says differently on this subject. He did the time so like every other convicted criminal in the United States who has served his sentence Michael Vick gets the chance to go back out into the world and right his life.

What in the world is wrong with that? If he did this and worked in a garage fixing cars nobody would have a thing to say about him trying to get another job as a mechanic. He's capable of earning enormous amounts of money in professional football and this fact seems to be the primary reason why so many people think he should be denied the chance to return to his chosen profession.

nero THE zero
08-10-2009, 02:21 PM
So what does it mean to you then? America is a country of second chances. Just because the guy made a horrible mistake, should he now be forever restricted from trying to make a living? And you're second paragraph speaks to a larger social problem which I have a problem with. People can make mistakes in their youth and truly try to make amends for their shortcomings later in life. Why not give them at least a chance too? My answer speaks to a larger social problem, but it has nothing to do with this thread so it's not worth the discussion here.

Well, with all due respect, it doesn't matter how you or I think things *should* be. This isn't an ideological or political matter, it's a matter of a convicted felon and whether he should play in the NFL within the context of societal rules as they've been dictated.

The way things are is what matters, and the way things are once you commit a felony you lose a lot of opportunities in life. Thus, the way things are, NFL teams have no obligation to go out of their way to sign a felon.

nero THE zero
08-10-2009, 02:35 PM
UnblEmished? Are you kidding? He just spent 19 months in jail friend. Chances are he got a "blemish" or two.

The NFL doesn't have a rule about dog fighting because it doesn't have one for drunk driving murderers or drug abusers either. Absolved from his past? No no no, I think you're terribly missing the mark here. His debt to society was time, in the form of imprisonment. In his return, aside from all the things you mentioned, the ones I'm about to and the things we probably forgot, do you think there is anyone he can talk to or anywhere he can go that he won't be recognized and most likely treated differently because of what he did? You think OJ just walked out of the court room and everything was still peachy.....or juicy?


You're basically arguing that Vick, for whatever reasons, is above other convicted felons and should be afforded opportunities that most other felons aren't. On what basis does he deserve these second opportunities? None, that I can think of.

I know athletes live a better life than your average citizen, mostly because of the money and fame afforded by their career path. Do you think that grandeur should be extended to athletes who are convicted of felons? I don't.

I mean, I don't mind athletes making the money they do, getting the women they do, getting the cars they do, getting the fame they do. It's all a product of their talents and their careers. But, once that athlete crosses the line, engages in felony conduct, and gets caught and convicted of it, their ride should end, IMO. On what basis do you think they should continue? There isn't one in my book.

99% of the lucrative job markets in America exclude anyone with a felony conviction. On what basis in Michael Vick above these other felons? Because he can run faster than most? Because he played in the NFL previously? Does this make him above other felons? I don't think so.

Michael Vick will most likely play in the NFL again. After he ruined a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity most everyone in this country would die for. Michael Vick will get his second-in-a-lifetime opportunity when most other convicted felons are stuck working blue collar jobs for an hourly wage. Is that fair to you? Is that just? It's not to me.

You keep fighting that good fight with that indignant tone for the misunderstood and truly deserving convicted felon, Michael Vick.

nero THE zero
08-10-2009, 02:40 PM
...

Second Honeymoon
08-10-2009, 02:55 PM
I am all for Vick having the right to play in the NFL but that is it. He has that correct partially, and will have it fully reinstated between Week 4-6. That doesn't mean any franchise has to sign him if they don't want him and his baggage.

Risk v. Reward is killing Vick right now...not some racist agenda. Who wants the media circus? Who wants PETA picketting their front door? Who wants to be the team that trusts Mike Vick to give them anything but a last minute money grab.

I would be a lot more sympathetic to Vick if he handled his bankruptcy proceedings with more humility and more common sense. He is defaulting on multiple multimillion dollar loans, has no cash, yet he wants to keep his fleet of cars and keep 3 separate fully furnished homes but to not bother with having to pay for them.

badboy
08-10-2009, 02:58 PM
The Rev. Jesse Jackson became the latest public figure to offer an opinion on the future of Michael Vick. Jackson said he wondered whether there had been collusion among N.F.L. owners to keep Vick out of the league.
Skip to next paragraph
Related

“I want to make it an issue,” Jackson said Thursday in a telephone interview. “I want teams to explain why they have a quarterback who has less skills but is playing or at least is on the taxi squad, and a guy with more skills can’t get into training camp.”

Two years ago this month, Vick pleaded guilty to felony charges related to his participation in an unlawful dogfighting ring and was indefinitely suspended from the N.F.L. Vick was sentenced to 23 months in federal prison in December 2007.

He was conditionally reinstated to the league last month by Commissioner Roger Goodell. Under terms of the reinstatement, Vick can take part in preseason practices, workouts and meetings and may play in the final two preseason games — if a team signs him.

When the season begins, Vick may participate in all team activities except games. Goodell said he would consider Vick for full reinstatement by Week 6.

“Democracy does not guarantee success,” Jackson said. “Democracy guarantees an opportunity. It’s not fair to de facto try to lock him out of his right to compete. If he can’t make the team, don’t let him play. If he can, let him work.”

Jackson, born in 1941, has been a civil rights activist for most of his adult life. He said that in some ways, Vick’s attempt to re-enter the N.F.L. was similar to Jackie Robinson’s entering Major League Baseball.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/sports/football/08rhoden.html?_r=2


When will this pathetic form of human bacteria somehow die off?

Here he is trying to create racial tension again, and using Vick as a subject for it. Comparing him to Jackie Robinson? Really? Like I've said time and time again, racism is a business and a venture to guys like Jackson, Sharpton, and Watkins.Jesse do what Jesse do.

HOU-TEX
08-10-2009, 03:00 PM
I am all for Vick having the right to play in the NFL but that is it. He has that correct partially, and will have it fully reinstated between Week 4-6. That doesn't mean any franchise has to sign him if they don't want him and his baggage.

Risk v. Reward is killing Vick right now...not some racist agenda. Who wants the media circus? Who wants PETA picketting their front door? Who wants to be the team that trusts Mike Vick to give them anything but a last minute money grab.

I would be a lot more sympathetic to Vick if he handled his bankruptcy proceedings with more humility and more common sense. He is defaulting on multiple multimillion dollar loans, has no cash, yet he wants to keep his fleet of cars and keep 3 separate fully furnished homes but to not bother with having to pay for them.

And they'll be there in force, no doubt. I read somewhere that they were spreading flyers throughout the HOF game parking lot saying the NFL supports animal killers or something like that. I'll see if I can find what I read.

Ckw
08-10-2009, 03:41 PM
All I can say is if Vick got treated the way many prisoners do when they drop the soap, he has most assuredly paid the price...

TimeKiller
08-10-2009, 04:40 PM
You're basically arguing that Vick, for whatever reasons, is above other convicted felons and should be afforded opportunities that most other felons aren't. On what basis does he deserve these second opportunities? None, that I can think of.
My point was that there isn't a process by which any criminal re-enters the NFL and gave recent examples. But as long as we're asking and answering questions, yes, I totally think killing people is worse than killing dogs. Probably why the sentencing is (usually) longer. This isn't OJ coming back, this is just Michael Vick.

I know athletes live a better life than your average citizen, mostly because of the money and fame afforded by their career path. Do you think that grandeur should be extended to athletes who are convicted of felons? I don't.

I mean, I don't mind athletes making the money they do, getting the women they do, getting the cars they do, getting the fame they do. It's all a product of their talents and their careers. But, once that athlete crosses the line, engages in felony conduct, and gets caught and convicted of it, their ride should end, IMO. On what basis do you think they should continue? There isn't one in my book.
So you think they should just stop being rich basically? Or that they will also have to stop dating hot women, stop driving nice cars and stop being famous? You really think that Michael Vick is just going to magically pop out of debt and into being wealthy? I'm almost positive this has put a big dent in his wallet. I doubt he'll ever be that rich again.

99% of the lucrative job markets in America exclude anyone with a felony conviction. On what basis in Michael Vick above these other felons? Because he can run faster than most? Because he played in the NFL previously? Does this make him above other felons? I don't think so.
I guess so. It isn't like they're bringing back Enron. Martha Stewart got a 2nd shot, why not Vick?

Double Barrel
08-10-2009, 04:57 PM
So how many Fortune 500 companies will be lining up to hire Jeff Skilling when he has "paid his debt to society"?

Why should it be any different for Vick? He is tainted as a commodity, which is directly related to sales. And dude hasn't played pro football in over 2 years, so there is the issue of his skills deteriorating, as well.

Fred
08-10-2009, 10:01 PM
I don't get the whole "paid his debt to society" schtick.

Just because he served his prison sentence doesn't mean he's free and clear to re-enter society unblimished. The guy is a convicted felon. In our society, once you have been convicted of a felony there are numerous rights and opportunities that are no longer afforded to you. In a number of states convicted felons are no longer allowed to vote. In a number of businesses, convicted felons are automatically disqualified from employment.

The NFL doesn't have an explicit rule as such. But, the idea that Vick has "paid his debt to society" and is now absolved from his past is a terribly flawed one. Just because he did jail time doesn't mean he should be automatically forgiven and signed.

Rep to you. He has done the bare minimum for society by staying out of it for a little while - not that he had a choice. Did all those dogs spring back to life? If not, the debt is not (and of course in such cases) is never really fully paid.

So what does it mean to you then? America is a country of second chances. Just because the guy made a horrible mistake, should he now be forever restricted from trying to make a living? And you're second paragraph speaks to a larger social problem which I have a problem with. People can make mistakes in their youth and truly try to make amends for their shortcomings later in life. Why not give them at least a chance too? My answer speaks to a larger social problem, but it has nothing to do with this thread so it's not worth the discussion here.

The company I work for doesn't hire felons. A super high profile company like an NFL team should be even more cautious. Does not mean he can't "earn a living". Some companies do hire felons. In fact I thought he already had a job lined up paying $10 an hour.

Besides in this case the guy has already made like what? $100 million? I realize he has probably p*s*ed away every penny of it - too bad. If I was hiring a felon I would probably lean toward the person who made mistakes in their youth and was truly trying to make amends.

That's the other problem with this whole "Vick should be allowed back in the NFL NOW!" outcry that started one second after he was out of prison. So he didn't run a big criminal conspiracy ring while in prison. So what? How about give him at least a year of freedom to see how he handles it. Does he gravitate back to trouble or does he truly try to make amends?

As for second chances - if someone has 6 DWIs - I'm not hiring them to drive. If someone is a child molester - I'm not hiring them to be a teacher. If someone spent six years organizing and financing a interstate criminal conspiracy involving incredible brutality - I'm not hiring them to be the "face of the franchise". Trust me, even if Vick is not the starter, he WILL be the "face of the franchise" of any team that signs him.

Vick has paid the penalty that our society has determined he owed for his crime. Everyone has their opinion on literally everything but we should all be grateful that others opinions aren't enforceble laws. You may not think that he should be able to play football again but that's for the NFL to decide. You may think he should pay forever but the law says differently on this subject. He did the time so like every other convicted criminal in the United States who has served his sentence Michael Vick gets the chance to go back out into the world and right his life.

What in the world is wrong with that? If he did this and worked in a garage fixing cars nobody would have a thing to say about him trying to get another job as a mechanic. He's capable of earning enormous amounts of money in professional football and this fact seems to be the primary reason why so many people think he should be denied the chance to return to his chosen profession.

NO! NO! Not for the NFL to decide! It's for the posters on this message board to decide!

But seriously, if a garage wants to hire Vick to fix cars - go for it. I'm guessing that most mechanics actual chosen profession is either pro football player or rock star so I don't see why chosen profession matters that much. If I ran a garage, I probably wouldn't hire a felon. But if I did, I would prefer someone with Vick's rap sheet over someone who stole tools from a previous employer.

Fred
08-10-2009, 10:21 PM
Martha Stewart got a 2nd shot, why not Vick?

Martha Stewart got a call from her broker recommending selling a stock. She said OK. Turns out the broker had insider information. Martha Stewart went to jail for taking her broker's advice. Number of days she knowing engaged in criminal behavior: zero.

Michael Vick organized and financed a major interstate criminal conspiracy for six years. Number of days he knowing engaged in criminal behavior: over 2000.

Texan JBZ
08-10-2009, 10:27 PM
So how many Fortune 500 companies will be lining up to hire Jeff Skilling when he has "paid his debt to society"?

Why should it be any different for Vick? He is tainted as a commodity, which is directly related to sales. And dude hasn't played pro football in over 2 years, so there is the issue of his skills deteriorating, as well.

DB, you're comparing apples to oranges on this one. What Vick did was self-inflicted. The only person that paid for his mistake was him. Skilling screwed over thousands and thousands of people. His actions affected more than just himself. Plus, Vick plays a game. At the end of the day, that's all it is. His actions might cause his team to lose a game, but not their entire life savings. Every case and every situation is different.

And no one know if his skills have deteriorated. It seems like people just want to write this guy off without him even getting another shot. My question is why? Yes, he did the crime. Yes, he did the time. Now that he has, it's time for that thing that most people in our society ignore - REHABILITATION. Vick is a football player. That's how he made a living and that's what he does best. That's his rehab. Give the man a chance. If he can't cut it anymore, the NFL will take care of that itself. But he at least deserves a shot. I thought this was the country of redemption and second chances, but I guess that doesn't apply to all.

Texan JBZ
08-10-2009, 10:30 PM
Martha Stewart got a call from her broker recommending selling a stock. She said OK. Turns out the broker had insider information. Martha Stewart went to jail for taking her broker's advice. Number of days she knowing engaged in criminal behavior: zero.

Michael Vick organized and financed a major interstate criminal conspiracy for six years. Number of days he knowing engaged in criminal behavior: over 2000.

What?!? You must not be adept on business ethics. Insider trading is very, very serious offense. Again, number of people affected by Martha Stewart's actions: thousands. Number of people affected by Vick's behavior: one.

Fred
08-10-2009, 10:52 PM
What?!? You must not be adept on business ethics. Insider trading is very, very serious offense. Again, number of people affected by Martha Stewart's actions: thousands. Number of people affected by Vick's behavior: one.

Thanks for the personal insult but you are wrong. She said she already has stop loss orders in place that triggered. Are stop loss orders placed without any insider knowledge illegal Mr. Business Ethics? Besides which the total amount of money involved in her transaction was probably less than the betting on a night of dog fights at Vick's place. Number of people and animals affected by Martha Stewart's actions: zero. Number of people and animals affected by Vick's behavior: thousands.

So are you going to stomp a dog to death tonight just for fun? Might as well, according to you, it doesn't affect anyone.

Texecutioner
08-10-2009, 10:57 PM
What?!? You must not be adept on business ethics. Insider trading is very, very serious offense. Again, number of people affected by Martha Stewart's actions: thousands. Number of people affected by Vick's behavior: one.

Come on JBZ. Even you normally can do better than this. Did you really just ask a question about how many people were hurt by Vick's behavior and say one? Is this some sort of joke?

Boris
08-10-2009, 11:06 PM
How come Leonard Little is allowed in?

Yeah, i get the PR problem & am revolted my Vick's actions ('Boris', holdover from original site, is the name of my dog who passed away our inaugural season)...but the outrage rings hollow with Mr. Little on an NFL roster.



here's my 11 month old pup's grandad - http://www.parkave-bordeaux.com/razz-1.html. He's a good, friendly boy.

Texan JBZ
08-10-2009, 11:14 PM
Come on JBZ. Even you normally can do better than this. Did you really just ask a question about how many people were hurt by Vick's behavior and say one? Is this some sort of joke?

How do you figure this is some sort of joke? Who was hurt in this situation besides Vick? Arthur Blank? He has Matt Ryan and a playoff caliber team now. His associates? They rolled on Vick and have no one to bankroll their illegal actions anymore. Are you trying to say that they were hurt by this? His family? Vick isn't flat broke and will be playing football again and making money. So who besides Vick was hurt by what he done besides himself?

mexican_texan
08-10-2009, 11:23 PM
Jesse Jackson could read a pamphlet on prostate cancer and pull the race card out.

Texan JBZ
08-10-2009, 11:24 PM
Thanks for the personal insult but you are wrong. She said she already has stop loss orders in place that triggered. Are stop loss orders placed without any insider knowledge illegal Mr. Business Ethics? Besides which the total amount of money involved in her transaction was probably less than the betting on a night of dog fights at Vick's place. Number of people and animals affected by Martha Stewart's actions: zero. Number of people and animals affected by Vick's behavior: thousands.

So are you going to stomp a dog to death tonight just for fun? Might as well, according to you, it doesn't affect anyone.

First, I didn't insult you. And now its just to people and animals. Ok, fair enough. Thousands of vicious dogs were hurt by Vick's actions. But you can't sit here and downplay the effect of insider trading. It's illegal for a reason. The SEC should have hammered her a lot harder than it did.

And sure, go ahead and stomp a dog to death tonight. Hopefully it's yours. That way, you'll get my point in that you will be the only one affected by your actions.

Texecutioner
08-10-2009, 11:31 PM
How come Leonard Little is allowed in?

Yeah, i get the PR problem & am revolted my Vick's actions ('Boris', holdover from original site, is the name of my dog who passed away our inaugural season)...but the outrage rings hollow with Mr. Little on an NFL roster.



here's my 11 month old pup's grandad - http://www.parkave-bordeaux.com/razz-1.html. He's a good, friendly boy.

And what point are you making at all? Where is it that says that Vick isn't allowed to play in the NFL? He was told by the commish a while back that he can play this season after a short suspension. If teams owners don't see any real value in bringing him in, then why should they? He is a guy who hasn't play any organized sport in two years and wasn't that good of a QB in his last two seasons when he did play.

You're LIttle argument is of no relevance, because Little is playing in the NFL and Vick is currently being allowed the same right as well. And I love it when the Leonard LIttle card gets played by some people when they try justifying why so many different scum bags should be playing or shouldn't be suspended. What you fail to realize is that it's because of guys like Little for why the NFL has the strict conduct policies that it does now. They weren't near as strict when Little caught those cases and had those accidents. It's because of cases like his that have been reviewed the NFL finally drew a line in the sand and dropped new policies to start suspending athletes for their illegal problems and crimes. Little's cases weren't happening at the same time when the NFL just conducted these new policies.

Vick is being allowed to play. The commish granted him that, so instead of complaining about "the league" what you should do is be greatfull that they're at least giving Vick an opportunity to play instead of suspending him for a lot longer period of time like many people expected them to and wanted them to.

Fred
08-11-2009, 06:35 AM
What?!? You must not be adept on business ethics. Insider trading is very, very serious offense. Again, number of people affected by Martha Stewart's actions: thousands. Number of people affected by Vick's behavior: one.


First, I didn't insult you. And now its just to people and animals. Ok, fair enough. Thousands of vicious dogs were hurt by Vick's actions. But you can't sit here and downplay the effect of insider trading. It's illegal for a reason. The SEC should have hammered her a lot harder than it did.

And sure, go ahead and stomp a dog to death tonight. Hopefully it's yours. That way, you'll get my point in that you will be the only one affected by your actions.

The bolded part of the first statement disproves the bolded part of the second statement. Who spend thousands of hours training the dogs to be vicious? Did Vick just fall off the turnip truck into the middle of a pack of vicious dogs? No, he had to work very hard to make them that way, and when some of them still weren't vicious enough he killed them in the most brutal ways he could think of.

They didn't even charge Martha Stewart with insider trading because they had no evidence she did it because she didn't. She was railroaded not for the initial "turned out not to be insider trading transaction" but because she stated truthfully that she did not engage in insider trading they claimed she was improperly trying to hold up the value of stock in her company (Martha Stewart Inc or whatever). This was a total railroad to nail a "big name" for daring to tell the truth.

You are the one who thinks there is nothing wrong with torturing and killing animals. Sorry such a simple point was too difficult.

Texan JBZ
08-11-2009, 07:05 AM
The bolded part of the first statement disproves the bolded part of the second statement. Who spend thousands of hours training the dogs to be vicious? Did Vick just fall off the turnip truck into the middle of a pack of vicious dogs? No, he had to work very hard to make them that way, and when some of them still weren't vicious enough he killed them in the most brutal ways he could think of.

They didn't even charge Martha Stewart with insider trading because they had no evidence she did it because she didn't. She was railroaded not for the initial "turned out not to be insider trading transaction" but because she stated truthfully that she did not engage in insider trading they claimed she was improperly trying to hold up the value of stock in her company (Martha Stewart Inc or whatever). This was a total railroad to nail a "big name" for daring to tell the truth.

You are the one who thinks there is nothing wrong with torturing and killing animals. Sorry such a simple point was too difficult.

On Stewart. Martha was charged with conspiracy to obstruct justice, conspiracy to commit perjury, and four counts of making or using false statements. But you say she was railroaded for daring to tell the truth? If you say so, I guess.

On to Vick. No one has to teach a pit how to be vicious. It's in their nature. They are born with it. It's no accident or coincidence that they are used as fighting dogs. It's what they do best. Now, am I absolving Vick of his actions? Of course not. You haven't read that anywhere in my statements on this topic. You try to be cute and make statements like I'm the one who thinks there is nothing wrong with torturing and killing animals, but you just come off as asinine because I stated nothing of the sort. I said that he did the crime, and subsequently did the time. Now, hopefully the guy can get his life back together and get back to doing what he is best at.

Koolaid Time
08-11-2009, 07:22 AM
Come on JBZ. Even you normally can do better than this. Did you really just ask a question about how many people were hurt by Vick's behavior and say one? Is this some sort of joke?

The insider trading charges were thrown out at Trial.


"In 2004, Stewart was convicted on charges of conspiracy, obstruction of justice and making false statements and her former Merrill Lynch stockbroker, Peter Bacanovic, was convicted on four of five counts against him."

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/06/news/newsmakers/martha/index.htm

Perjury/Obstruction is NOT a minimal crime. Its a crime against the Judicial System.

Boris
08-11-2009, 08:39 AM
And what point are you making at all? Where is it that says that Vick isn't allowed to play in the NFL? He was told by the commish a while back that he can play this season after a short suspension. If teams owners don't see any real value in bringing him in, then why should they? He is a guy who hasn't play any organized sport in two years and wasn't that good of a QB in his last two seasons when he did play.

You're LIttle argument is of no relevance, because Little is playing in the NFL and Vick is currently being allowed the same right as well. And I love it when the Leonard LIttle card gets played by some people when they try justifying why so many different scum bags should be playing or shouldn't be suspended. What you fail to realize is that it's because of guys like Little for why the NFL has the strict conduct policies that it does now. They weren't near as strict when Little caught those cases and had those accidents. It's because of cases like his that have been reviewed the NFL finally drew a line in the sand and dropped new policies to start suspending athletes for their illegal problems and crimes. Little's cases weren't happening at the same time when the NFL just conducted these new policies.

Vick is being allowed to play. The commish granted him that, so instead of complaining about "the league" what you should do is be greatfull that they're at least giving Vick an opportunity to play instead of suspending him for a lot longer period of time like many people expected them to and wanted them to.

I'm just flabbergasted that we would picket/protest Vick's signing but allow Little to play w/barely any outcry.

Coonass Texan
08-11-2009, 08:46 AM
Let's not forget the fact that his "Talent as a QB" has been questionable his entire career. Throw in the fact that he's been out of the game for 2+ years and the fact that you would obtain unwanted attention from his hire that would distract away from football...............Yeh Jesse, it's definitely a race thing.......this dude needs to just crawl in a hole somewhere and go away....

Specnatz
08-11-2009, 09:42 AM
I'm just flabbergasted that we would picket/protest Vick's signing but allow Little to play w/barely any outcry.

You do not read the boards here do you? Besides PETA are nut jobs compared to MADD. Besides MADD got what they wanted as regards to Little and now Stallworth. Neither can ever drive again.

Besides comparing two different crimes is like comparing apples to Jupiter. Now you are going to get into a debate about alcoholism being a disease and an accident and a mistake versus consciously making a choice to kill multiple dogs brutally.

swtbound07
08-11-2009, 09:48 AM
You do not read the boards here do you? Besides PETA are nut jobs compared to MADD. Besides MADD got what they wanted as regards to Little and now Stallworth. Neither can ever drive again.

Besides comparing two different crimes is like comparing apples to Jupiter. Now you are going to get into a debate about alcoholism being a disease and an accident and a mistake versus consciously making a choice to kill multiple dogs brutally.

just comparing people killing to dog killing. Personally, I like people more.

Texecutioner
08-11-2009, 12:14 PM
The insider trading charges were thrown out at Trial.


"In 2004, Stewart was convicted on charges of conspiracy, obstruction of justice and making false statements and her former Merrill Lynch stockbroker, Peter Bacanovic, was convicted on four of five counts against him."

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/06/news/newsmakers/martha/index.htm

Perjury/Obstruction is NOT a minimal crime. Its a crime against the Judicial System.

WHy are you trying to explain this to me? I was quoting JBZ's words on how dog fighting didn't hurt anyone.

Hervoyel
08-11-2009, 12:20 PM
just comparing people killing to dog killing. Personally, I like people more.


There are times I do not. It's on a case by case basis.

Texecutioner
08-11-2009, 12:21 PM
How do you figure this is some sort of joke? Who was hurt in this situation besides Vick? Arthur Blank? He has Matt Ryan and a playoff caliber team now. His associates? They rolled on Vick and have no one to bankroll their illegal actions anymore. Are you trying to say that they were hurt by this? His family? Vick isn't flat broke and will be playing football again and making money. So who besides Vick was hurt by what he done besides himself?

Well for one JBZ, the entire NFL league's reputation was hurt from it. For two, those guys that VIck was partners with were hurt from it. Were his cousins victims? Of course not. But would they have been able to have the biggest dog fighting farm in the US without Vick's big bank roll funding all of that? No. And then we have the issue of the hundreds of dogs that were killed, electricuted, raped, and traumatized which I would say counts more than anything that happened to any of the humans. It's one thing to let some dogs get out in the grass and rumble which is very wrong, but to have a huge dog fighting ranch that's the equivalent to a slave camp of the Holacaust only with dogs instead of humans goes way beyond the normal realm of what most people talk about when they mention dog fighting.

ANd what in the hell does Matt Ryan have to do with this? You mention him as if him getting drafted makes the situation better or okay. LIke Oh, they got another QB two years later that had a good rookie season so, it's not that big of a deal and that changes things. :dontknowa

Texan JBZ
08-11-2009, 01:18 PM
Well for one JBZ, the entire NFL league's reputation was hurt from it. For two, those guys that VIck was partners with were hurt from it. Were his cousins victims? Of course not. But would they have been able to have the biggest dog fighting farm in the US without Vick's big bank roll funding all of that? No. And then we have the issue of the hundreds of dogs that were killed, electricuted, raped, and traumatized which I would say counts more than anything that happened to any of the humans. It's one thing to let some dogs get out in the grass and rumble which is very wrong, but to have a huge dog fighting ranch that's the equivalent to a slave camp of the Holacaust only with dogs instead of humans goes way beyond the normal realm of what most people talk about when they mention dog fighting.

ANd what in the hell does Matt Ryan have to do with this? You mention him as if him getting drafted makes the situation better or okay. LIke Oh, they got another QB two years later that had a good rookie season so, it's not that big of a deal and that changes things. :dontknowa

The NFL's reputation was hurt by Vick? The freaking Bills-Titans preseason game got a 5.1/9 Nielsen rating. A meaningless preseason game gets a 5.1/9 rating when the Yankees and Red Sox are playing. No one person can put a dent in the NFL's popularity or its reputation. The league will continue to thrive and grow regardless if Vick ever takes another snap.

As far as Vick's partners, you said the key words - they were in it with him. How did he hurt them when they were all contributing to this illegal activity? They knew the implications and they took the risk right along with him. They weren't victims, they were accomplices.

Largest dogfighting ring/farm in US history? Hardly. Vick and his associates are small fries compared to some of these other rings. There was a news story not long ago where there was an eight state dogfighting ring broken up. All while Vick was behind bars. Vick was a small fly in the ointment on whole larger problem. Large dogfighting rings were going on before Vick, and, as witnessed, they'll continue to happen after Vick. And really, comparing what Vick did to the Holocaust? Not touching that one. That's a bit too far. Real live people, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, etc, were killed by the millions in an effort to exterminate an entire race of people. I know how people feel about their dogs, and I'm not trying to underscore that. But human life carries a lot more weight in my eyes. I've lost a dog before. I've also lost a brother. Guess which one I can get another of? You can do what you want Texecutioner, but I'd be careful in what I compare to the Holocaust.

And I mentioned Ryan because you stated that so many others were hurt by Vick's actions. You mentioned the NFL's reputation being hurt, so I'm going to assume that you feel the same way about Blank and the Falcons. Instead, everything has worked out for the better. Ryan was the NFL RoY and the new face of that organization. Roddy White had a breakout year. Michael Turner is an elite RB. Most importantly, they're a playoff team again. The Falcons have moved on. They are a better team now, so yes everything worked out for them. And now, Vick is not a big deal. It's the way of the today's NFL. No matter what happens to one individual player, the game is bigger than them and it will move on. Nuff said.

cuppacoffee
08-11-2009, 01:26 PM
DB, you're comparing apples to oranges on this one. What Vick did was self-inflicted. The only person that paid for his mistake was him. Skilling screwed over thousands and thousands of people. His actions affected more than just himself. Plus, Vick plays a game. At the end of the day, that's all it is. His actions might cause his team to lose a game, but not their entire life savings. Every case and every situation is different.

And no one know if his skills have deteriorated. It seems like people just want to write this guy off without him even getting another shot. My question is why? Yes, he did the crime. Yes, he did the time. Now that he has, it's time for that thing that most people in our society ignore - REHABILITATION. Vick is a football player. That's how he made a living and that's what he does best. That's his rehab. Give the man a chance. If he can't cut it anymore, the NFL will take care of that itself. But he at least "deserves a shot. I thought this was the country of redemption and second chances, but I guess that doesn't apply to all.


Excellent point.

Must spread rep" ect


:coffee:

Texecutioner
08-11-2009, 01:30 PM
As far as Vick's partners, you said the key words - they were in it with him. How did he hurt them when they were all contributing to this illegal activity? They knew the implications and they took the risk right along with him. They weren't victims, they were accomplices.

Would it have happened had Vick not shoveled out the cash to fund it all? And what in the hell was Vick doing even associating himself with thugs like these who were involved with a lot of other stuff other than just dog fighting. They initially went over there to that house to investigate narcotics activities.

Largest dogfighting ring/farm in US history? Hardly. Vick and his associates are small fries compared to some of these other rings. There was a news story not long ago where there was an eight state dogfighting ring broken up. All while Vick was behind bars. Vick was a small fly in the ointment on whole larger problem. Large dogfighting rings were going on before Vick, and, as witnessed, they'll continue to happen after Vick. And really, comparing what Vick did to the Holocaust? Not touching that one. That's a bit too far. Real live people, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, etc, were killed by the millions in an effort to exterminate an entire race of people. I know how people feel about their dogs, and I'm not trying to underscore that. But human life carries a lot more weight in my eyes. I've lost a dog before. I've also lost a brother. Guess which one I can get another of? You can do what you want Texecutioner, but I'd be careful in what I compare to the Holocaust.

if you think that Vick was just some small fry in dog fighting, then not only are you much much further from reality then I could have ever imagined, or you simply aren't informed at all as to what happened with his situation and what went at his dog fighting ranch. I'm going to assume both, since dog fighting doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to you, and since it's obvious that you aren't aware of what happened over there to call Vick a small fry in dog fighting in the USA when he had people flying in from out of town with champion dogs all over the country and different states where they were laying big time bucks on such a pathetic hobby. YOu talk as if they were no different than Bobo and Ray Ray who takes their Pit Bull out to the field on occasion and fights theirs against their cousin's dog or something. Vick had a freaking compound with with dogs in the numbers past like 50. Dogs were decaying of disease, parasites, worms, and all sorts of other things besides just being electricuted, drowned, and tortured. Why don't you actually go research this before speaking lightly of this situation where you haven't even read up on what happened JBZ.

Texecutioner
08-11-2009, 01:33 PM
Excellent point.

Must spread rep" ect


:coffee:

What the hell does that have to do with any of this??? Vick is not being told that he can't play football. None of these comparisons with insider traders have any relevance here. VIck is not being denied the right to do anything. It's the opposite actually. But once again the race baiters crawl out from under the rocks and try turning this into some civil rights issue.

Mr teX
08-11-2009, 01:40 PM
The.....ah nevermind b/c it's just not worth it.....:backsout:

WWJD
08-11-2009, 03:45 PM
I just listened to Rev. Jackson on the Galloway ESPN show in Dallas..

he said his concern is not based on race but rather Mike Vick being given an opportunity to play NFL football.

He feels he is being shut out by NFL owners while he has paid his dues and deserves the chance.

According to Galloway Mike is set to sign with a team very soon and they mentioned the Pats as being a team that he could go to and be fine.

HoustonFrog
08-11-2009, 03:48 PM
Here is my take on it..I want to see him play again. Tony Dungy is a good, Christian man that ministers to guys like him so if he says the guy deserves a shot, I'll go with it. Anyone who knows my posts from when the Vick thing came down knows that I thought his actions were horrible and that he should pay. I was pretty blunt on it. He deserved jailtime and could have gotten more. He did pay. But now that he is out, he should get his redemption shot. It's his to mold into something special or fail. If a person in jail came out and they found a hidden talent...they became a master artist or writer...and they cashed in on it, people would say they learned in prison and turned things around. I think people are upset at the crime, plus being a felon and then saying he doesn't deserve a chance to make money in the league. Overall though, if that is where his talent is and he has a mentor in a man like Dungy, let it ride and see if he can turn it around. If he uses the platform correctly he can be a positive, not a negative.

Texecutioner
08-11-2009, 04:10 PM
I just listened to Rev. Jackson on the Galloway ESPN show in Dallas..

he said his concern is not based on race but rather Mike Vick being given an opportunity to play NFL football.

He feels he is being shut out by NFL owners while he has paid his dues and deserves the chance.

According to Galloway Mike is set to sign with a team very soon and they mentioned the Pats as being a team that he could go to and be fine.

I'd like to see him go to a team and get his opportunity to play, but in no way do I want to see him go to the Pats. That would suck to see Vick come right out of prison and get himself a SB ring.

Double Barrel
08-11-2009, 04:40 PM
DB, you're comparing apples to oranges on this one.

But both are fruits, my friend. ;)

What Vick did was self-inflicted. The only person that paid for his mistake was him. Skilling screwed over thousands and thousands of people. His actions affected more than just himself. Plus, Vick plays a game. At the end of the day, that's all it is. His actions might cause his team to lose a game, but not their entire life savings. Every case and every situation is different.

I understand where you misunderstood the comparison, but the fact remains that just because someone "paid their debt to society", it doesn't mean that they are now free to conduct themselves without the burden of their past.

I wasn't making a comparison of crimes. Obviously, they are completely unrelated.

However, the simple fact remains that Vick, as a commodity, is damaged goods to NFL teams right now. He is more of a burden to them than an asset. Nobody knows if they can trust him, and perhaps he's not even sure at this point in time.

I'm not justifying or defending either side, but just being pragmatic about looking at this issue. People cannot run around demanding anything when they fail to comprehend the big picture.

And no one know if his skills have deteriorated. It seems like people just want to write this guy off without him even getting another shot. My question is why? Yes, he did the crime. Yes, he did the time. Now that he has, it's time for that thing that most people in our society ignore - REHABILITATION. Vick is a football player. That's how he made a living and that's what he does best. That's his rehab. Give the man a chance. If he can't cut it anymore, the NFL will take care of that itself. But he at least deserves a shot. I thought this was the country of redemption and second chances, but I guess that doesn't apply to all.

I never said that his skills have deteriorated. I just said that it is an issue due to the simple fact that he has been out of pro football for two years. It is an issue because nobody knows if he is still capable, and when combined with the PR nightmare of having Vick on the roster, it's just not worth it to the majority of NFL teams at this point in time.

If I were to speculate, I would venture that he's got something left in tank. But, is the return of what you get with today's Vick worth the hassle of signing him? This is the crux of the matter.

Texan JBZ
08-11-2009, 05:28 PM
But both are fruits, my friend. ;)



I understand where you misunderstood the comparison, but the fact remains that just because someone "paid their debt to society", it doesn't mean that they are now free to conduct themselves without the burden of their past.

I wasn't making a comparison of crimes. Obviously, they are completely unrelated.

However, the simple fact remains that Vick, as a commodity, is damaged goods to NFL teams right now. He is more of a burden to them than an asset. Nobody knows if they can trust him, and perhaps he's not even sure at this point in time.

I'm not justifying or defending either side, but just being pragmatic about looking at this issue. People cannot run around demanding anything when they fail to comprehend the big picture.



I never said that his skills have deteriorated. I just said that it is an issue due to the simple fact that he has been out of pro football for two years. It is an issue because nobody knows if he is still capable, and when combined with the PR nightmare of having Vick on the roster, it's just not worth it to the majority of NFL teams at this point in time.

If I were to speculate, I would venture that he's got something left in tank. But, is the return of what you get with today's Vick worth the hassle of signing him? This is the crux of the matter.

Very well written response. I agree with you on a lot of your points. Vick is a risk for any team that signs him. Not only is he a monetary risk, but he is a huge publicity risk also. Wherever he goes, the entire Barnum & Bailey's circus is sure to come to town and set up shop. That is a major concern for most of the owners out there, which is more than understandable. But I do believe that if he gets on the right team with the right leadership, by December this will all be old news.

I don't know if his skills have deteriorated or not. We all shall see. The game has changed some in the past two seasons, but I don't think Vick has forgotten how to play football. If anything, the addition of the Wildcat should make his transition back into the QB position a little easier since it combines what he has done best. All in all, Vick needs to go to a team which already has an entrenched starting QB, a no nonsense HC, and solid veteran leadership. Teams like the Patriots and Ravens make perfect sense for him at this point.

Specnatz
08-11-2009, 09:32 PM
Everyone please ask your boss if they would hire Vick and then get back to me.

The only reason this is a debate about served his time/paid his debt to society BullShit is even being talked about is because he can run a 4.4/40. Other wise it would be go work as a day labor or what ever.

You folks that want him back in the league would not want him babysitting your dogs or your kids knocking on his door on Oct 31. And none of you would want him to date your sisters or daughters.

GNTLEWOLF
08-12-2009, 12:33 AM
Everyone please ask your boss if they would hire Vick and then get back to me.

The only reason this is a debate about served his time/paid his debt to society BullShit is even being talked about is because he can run a 4.4/40. Other wise it would be go work as a day labor or what ever.

You folks that want him back in the league would not want him babysitting your dogs or your kids knocking on his door on Oct 31. And none of you would want him to date your sisters or daughters.

I promised myself I wouldn't get in this discussion, but here goes... The dating my sister or daughter or babysitting my kids or pets thing is irrelavent to this discussion. I can agree that as a human being he has proven himself to be a scumbag in the past. However, the fact that he can run a 4.4/40 makes him a possible up-grade in talent on some professional football team. If I am an NFL owner, and I want the best athletes I can get, the only thing I think about in Vick's case is the balance that is struck between the possibilities he brings as a football player and the negative PR I will get from PETA and other organizations. With Vick it is a roll of the dice as to whether or not his skills have decreased. If they haven't, then I might be willing to use him in some way to better my team. Do I want him as my starting QB? No!But if he is willing to explore other options that will have him playing QB in some formations, and if he is willing to and disciplined enough to make himself be completely honest with the guy allowing him the opportunity to get his life back then I might take the chance. It's business and vick is an interesting commodity as an athlete.
As far as the original thread goes....Jessie Jackson is just wrong....there is no discrimination here. It isn't a race thing, it is clearly a business and a PR thing. It would be a pretty far stretch to find discrimination here. Overactive and one-track imagination.