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ArlingtonTexan
08-07-2009, 07:32 PM
Texans cornerback Dunta Robinson, who has yet to sign a contract and report to training camp, says he is likely to join the team the week the regular season begins, though that could change at any minute.

Robinson declared he would be on “the first thing smoking” and at practice tomorrow morning if the Texans would agree not to place a franchise tag on him for a second consecutive year.

“I’d be on the way to the airport while we were talking, and be the first one at the next practice if they did that,” Robinson said in a telephone interview from Sarasota, Fla., where he is working out to prepare for the upcoming season.

Robinson said should the negotiations stretch to the end of the preseason he would report and do his best to be ready for the season opener against the Jets on Sept. 13. With a new defensive coordinator (Frank Bush) and a new secondary coach (David Gibbs), Robinson admits that it might not be easy for him to get up to speed.

“If it were the same system we’ve been running, I could be ready to play this Sunday,” he said. “I’m in great shape; better than I was at any point last season. In a way, I don’t know how I was even out there late in the season, as weak as me knee and legs were. But I was anxious to get back out there. I had to because I knew the team needed me.”

After not being able to come to an agreement on a long-term deal, the Texans placed a franchise tag on Robinson. About the only thing left to negotiate since that point has been whether the team would agree not to place the restrictive tag on him next offseason.

"It’s what other teams do and have done,” Robinson said. “It’s what New England did with their best cornerback. It’s what Tennessee did with its best defensive player. You can go down the list and that’s how a lot of good teams do business. It’s what teams do."

“It’s not a crazy request. I’m trying to meet them in the middle, but they won’t come halfway. I would have been at all the offseason stuff, and at training camp from Day 1 if they just agreed to that.”

The Patriots placed a franchise tag on Asante Samuel before the 2007 season, and agreed to not place it on him the following year. The Titans made a similar deal with Albert Haynesworth last season. Each player left his original team, signing a huge contract as a free agent.

Robinson said though he was upset that Texans general manager Rick Smith went against an early declaration in the negotiations that the team would not franchise him, he understands that the team was trying to sign him at a lesser rate than his perceived value as a free agent.

“He said I wasn’t a franchise tag-worthy player,” Robinson said. “If that’s the case, then why pay me franchise-level money? And possibly two years in a row? Doesn’t make sense to me.”

Robinson, who has not talked publicly about the situation since April, would not say how much the Texans offered him long-term. But he noted that the reported $23 million guarantee is almost what the Texans would be forced to pay him for only two seasons of work if he were franchised next year as well.

The franchise tag (the average salary for the five highest paid players at a position) for cornerbacks this season is just under $10 million. That number will almost certainly rise for the 2010 season, possibly to the $11-12 million range. (Per the collective bargaining agreement a player who is franchised twice is due at least a 10-percent raise the second year or the tag level, whichever is highest.)

Robinson is the first player in Texans history to be given the franchise tag.

“It’s killing me not to be there. My teammates know that, and the Texans’ front office knows that,” Robinson said. “Once this is over, they know I will give my all and play my heart out just as I have always done. I’m a Texan through and through. They know that too.

“I’ve planned on being a Texan for my entire career. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to be paid what I am worth. Whatever happens on the business side, when the season starts, I’m going to put it all out there on the field, just like I always have.”

jerome.solomon@chron.com



http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6564888.html

painekiller
08-07-2009, 07:37 PM
Then give us the right to match any offer. Oh that right, you can't do that because the union would be mad.

He is only hurting himself right now.

m5kwatts
08-07-2009, 07:42 PM
23 million in 2 seasons of work + the longterm contract's guaranteed money you'd get before the 3rd season and you're unhappy with those prospects Dunta? His stance is beginning to make less and less sense as the days go by. He's acting like a 2 year old put in time out and won't mend fence just because his wittle feewings got huwwt. Friggin baby.

swtbound07
08-07-2009, 07:45 PM
23 million in 2 seasons of work + the longterm contract's guaranteed money you'd get before the 3rd season and you're unhappy with those prospects Dunta? His stance is beginning to make less and less sense as the days go by. He's acting like a 2 year old put in time out and won't mend fence just because his wittle feewings got huwwt. Friggin baby.

football players want job security. In a year to year league, wanting a multi-year deal to set yourself up financially isn't selfish. I wouldn't want to be the guy who never gets a big contract, gets tagged repeatedly and discarded. He has proved to me that he is our best cornerback. I'd like him for a longterm deal. I also think the franchise tag screws his life up if he gets injured. I wouldn't take the tag 2 straight years. Thats playing russian roulette with your money for the rest of your life. I think everybody in here throwing stones at him doesn't understand the business nature of this game and doesn't realize how important of a piece he is to our secondary. I wish dunta the best and hope he gets the long term security he wants and the money he deserves, and I hope its with the Texans, because we won't find another Dunta Robinson

Wolf6151
08-07-2009, 07:46 PM
Maybe we could trade Dunta to New Orleans for Malcolm Jenkins who's holding out on N.O. training camp and not happy with their 1st round offer. Opinions?

Runner
08-07-2009, 07:47 PM
It seems like removing the franchise tag is a simple thing. It only protects the Texans if he he plays very well this year and would then command a big free agent contract. If he only plays average, they wouldn't want to pay him $12M anyway. I hope Rick Smith isn't just being stubborn and trying to save face, or worse yet delaying the signing just to send a message.

It was also good to hear Dunta doesn't sound as irrational and spiteful as he's been painted here. He knows he needs to be in camp. He needs to consider pulling the trigger too. He and Smith are both being very stubborn.

m5kwatts
08-07-2009, 07:53 PM
football players want job security. In a year to year league, wanting a multi-year deal to set yourself up financially isn't selfish. I wouldn't want to be the guy who never gets a big contract, gets tagged repeatedly and discarded. He has proved to me that he is our best cornerback. I'd like him for a longterm deal. I also think the franchise tag screws his life up if he gets injured. I wouldn't take the tag 2 straight years. Thats playing russian roulette with your money for the rest of your life. I think everybody in here throwing stones at him doesn't understand the business nature of this game and doesn't realize how important of a piece he is to our secondary. I wish dunta the best and hope he gets the long term security he wants and the money he deserves, and I hope its with the Texans, because we won't find another Dunta Robinson

Can't negotiate long-term anymore. He's locked in at 9 mil a year once he signs that tag, and thats his only option for playing NFL football this season. If I was him I would realize that there's no way out of it this year and save this tantrum for next offseason when the Texans may have to worry about franchising other guys like Kevin Walter, Owen Daniels, & Chester Pitts. Does he realize he's coming off of major knee surgery and needs to re-prove his worth? This isn't 2004 Dunta Robinson, its 2009 post-major knee op Dunta.

PHAROAH
08-07-2009, 07:55 PM
Trade him now and get him out of here and sign Chris Mcalister to a two year deal and call it a day no need to waste time on a guy that doesn't want to be in houston we can find players who want to be here with that 10 million.

Thorn
08-07-2009, 07:55 PM
He's not that great of a CB. With the franchise tag he's overpaid. I don't care what everyone says, he's not worth the money. He might be the best CB on the Texans, but that doesn't mean for a second he's worth it. The Texans don't have a good defensive backfield, CB or Safeties, and just because he's the best CB we got, doesn't mean he's worth what the top corners in the league make.

Polo
08-07-2009, 07:55 PM
To me it seems more and more like the team is handling this the wrong way...

Why in the hell would you franchise a guy two years in a row that you think isn't worth a big contract...

m5kwatts
08-07-2009, 07:57 PM
To me it seems more and more like the team is handling this the wrong way...

Why in the hell would you franchise a guy two years in a row that you think isn't worth a big contract...

Did the front office tell you they plan on franchising him a second year in a row? Just because the Texans aren't cowering to Dunta's threats doesn't mean they're locked in to franchising him a second year. His performance this year will dictate whether or not he's franchised, signed long term or allowed to walk.

Runner
08-07-2009, 07:58 PM
23 million in 2 seasons of work + the longterm contract's guaranteed money you'd get before the 3rd season and you're unhappy with those prospects Dunta? His stance is beginning to make less and less sense as the days go by. He's acting like a 2 year old put in time out and won't mend fence just because his wittle feewings got huwwt. Friggin baby.

If being tagged two years in a row is so heavily favored toward Dunta, why isn't Smith willing to waive it next year?

Both these guys are being stubborn when it makes perfect sense for either side to give in.

Runner
08-07-2009, 08:00 PM
He's not that great of a CB. With the franchise tag he's overpaid. I don't care what everyone says, he's not worth the money. He might be the best CB on the Texans, but that doesn't mean for a second he's worth it. The Texans don't have a good defensive backfield, CB or Safeties, and just because he's the best CB we got, doesn't mean he's worth what the top corners in the league make.

Same question then - why doesn't Smith just agree to not franchise tag next year?

Ckw
08-07-2009, 08:00 PM
What I don't understand is why if he wants to play here he is even worried about getting franchised next year. If we want him that bad and he wants to be a Texans his whole career, then surely we would reach an agreement next year. The thing is he doesn't want to be a Texan. He even alluded to being offered close to the 23 mil guaranteed he wanted but still turned it down. I don't remember all the times it has happened but a majority of the time that a player is franchised two years in a row it is because the player does not want to play for that team anymore. They want out.

All this really makes me wonder if we had not franchised Dunta what would have happened. Would any team have been willing to give a player that just came off the injury Dunta had the kind of money Dunta supposedly wants? I really don't think so, and it would have been interesting to see just how much Dunta wants to be a Texan. I would be willing to be we probably offered him more than most teams would have been willing. :bat:

Thorn
08-07-2009, 08:02 PM
Sane question then - why doesn't smith just agree to know franchise tag next year?

I have no idea. None. The only thing I can think of is he actually is the best CB we got on our team right now, and losing him is something Rick Smith doesn't want to do, no matter the cost.

Jackie Chiles
08-07-2009, 08:03 PM
To me it seems more and more like the team is handling this the wrong way...

Why in the hell would you franchise a guy two years in a row that you think isn't worth a big contract...

The franchise tag isn't something as black and white as being over or under paid. It is a way to retain talent and as long as a team has wiggle room under the cap that wouldn't get spent might as well go ahead and use it imo. What I mean is, the Texans would rather go into next season perhaps overpaying Dunta instead of losing him and going into the season with a bunch of cap space that isn't going to do them any good.

Texan JBZ
08-07-2009, 08:05 PM
To me it seems more and more like the team is handling this the wrong way...

Why in the hell would you franchise a guy two years in a row that you think isn't worth a big contract...

The thing is that if we believe all the sources on this negotiation, the Texans did offer Dumbta a big contract that he decided to turn down! If he really wants to be a Texan like he says he wants to be, then why does he need the FO to guarantee not to tag him again? If Dumbta was worth as much as he thinks he is, then teams would have gladly gave the Texans a draft pick or two for him, ala Matt Cassel. With the way he's acted, I would be upset with Rick Smith if he caved in to Dumbta. Let him rot. And to think, this guy used to be my favorite Texan.

Runner
08-07-2009, 08:07 PM
I have no idea. None. The only thing I can think of is he actually is the best CB we got on our team right now, and losing him is something Rick Smith doesn't want to do, no matter the cost.

It's crazy. Both sides are making a stand and won't give in. The second franchise tag protects the Texans ONLY if Dunta shows he's worth huge guaranteed money next year. They must think that may happen, since they are essentially reserving the right to pay him $22M for two years.

Polo
08-07-2009, 08:09 PM
Did the front office tell you they plan on franchising him a second year in a row? Just because the Texans aren't cowering to Dunta's threats doesn't mean they're locked in to franchising him a second year. His performance this year will dictate whether or not he's franchised, signed long term or allowed to walk.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would they be locked into franchising him when they have no idea what the future holds...

I think you missed my point which was that they are even leaving the door open for the possibility. If you think that a 23 million dollar offer was being generous or fair, why would you franchise the dude two years in a row paying him that much in two years...

Seems like the team is being especially stubborn, maybe trying to send a message...sorta like law enforcement not negotiating with criminals in hostage situations...

Why continue to franchise a guy? Seems like that only would upset the player and the teams pocketbook...

I dunno, just seems stubborn that they won't agree to not franchise him again when so many teams have done the same thing...

Texan JBZ
08-07-2009, 08:12 PM
Sank question then - why doesn't Smith just agree to not franchise tag next year?

Because draft picks are too damn valuable. Only two players have ever got the guarantee that their current team wouldn't tag them two years in a row. In both cases, both players bolted and left the team without any compensation. Hell, Al Davis didn't even offer that type of deal to Nnamdi when the Raiders tagged him, so what makes Dumbta believe Rick Smith should give that type of deal?

Jackie Chiles
08-07-2009, 08:14 PM
That doesn't make any sense. Why would they be locked into franchising him when they have no idea what the future holds...

I think you missed my point which was that they are even leaving the door open for the possibility. If you think that a 23 million dollar offer was being generous or fair, why would you franchise the dude two years in a row paying him that much in two years...

Seems like the team is being especially stubborn, maybe trying to send a message...sorta like law enforcement not negotiating with criminals in hostage situations...

Why continue to franchise a guy? Seems like that only would upset the player and the teams pocketbook...

I dunno, just seems stubborn that they won't agree to not franchise him again when so many teams have done the same thing...

They want to retain some leverage. If Dunta's two options are a 2nd year under the franchise tag or to sign long term with the Texans their chances are better than him hitting FA. They are probably also being a bit stubborn so that when they use the tag in the future guys don't think they can influence the team with a holdout.

Jackie Chiles
08-07-2009, 08:15 PM
Because draft picks are too damn valuable. Only two players have ever got the guarantee that their current team wouldn't tag them two years in a row. In both cases, both players bolted and left the team without any compensation. Hell, Al Davis didn't even offer that type of deal to Nnamdi when the Raiders tagged him, so what makes Dumbta believe Rick Smith should give that type of deal to him?

Shaun Alexander also got that guarantee but he stayed with Seattle (unfortunately for them). Other than those three I cannot think of anyone else.

HJam72
08-07-2009, 08:16 PM
It all just sounds to me like both sides are concerned about Dunta getting re-injured. The Texans don't want to lose him or give him a long-term deal until he proves he can stay healthy, and Dunta just wants a long-term deal, period.

He'll hold out until the first practice after preseason ends. Next offseason, the big problem will be that other teams ARE offering him big money. He'll probably get franchised again, although Smith doesn't know that yet, lol.

V3rm0nt3r
08-07-2009, 08:55 PM
IF i were Rick Smith i would agree to this deal. this team says again and again that anything other than the playoffs is a failure and i see this defense a lot more intimidating with DR in the backfield. lets be honest there is no way that Deltha O'Neal, Fred Bennett, a second year pro that didn't play CB his rookie year and two rooks stand a chance against an NFL passing attack. i don't care how good the pass rush or the LB corps are. and if he doesn't play well then don't resign him and draft someone. if he does, sign him long term.

Jackie Chiles
08-07-2009, 09:17 PM
IF i were Rick Smith i would agree to this deal. this team says again and again that anything other than the playoffs is a failure and i see this defense a lot more intimidating with DR in the backfield. lets be honest there is no way that Deltha O'Neal, Fred Bennett, a second year pro that didn't play CB his rookie year and two rooks stand a chance against an NFL passing attack. i don't care how good the pass rush or the LB corps are. and if he doesn't play well then don't resign him and draft someone. if he does, sign him long term.

Hes not sitting out the whole season though, those guys aren't going to have to play his position in the games that actually count.

Pantherstang84
08-07-2009, 09:38 PM
Because draft picks are too damn valuable. Only two players have ever got the guarantee that their current team wouldn't tag them two years in a row. In both cases, both players bolted and left the team without any compensation. Hell, Al Davis didn't even offer that type of deal to Nnamdi when the Raiders tagged him, so what makes Dumbta believe Rick Smith should give that type of deal?

Because Dunta wants to leave next year giving the team no compensation? That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

If he means what he says that he will not show until the first week of the season, then Smith ought to pull the tag while his plane is on its way to Houston. Spend a year unemployed or at the vet minimum.

RT22
08-07-2009, 09:39 PM
I think that the reason that Dunta wants more than the 23.5 mill gaurantee long term contract is that he feels that he can be franchised for that amount over 2 years and is saying that the Texans brass is going to pay me that amount anyway over the next two years by placing the tag on him. So I believe that he is trying to use that as leverage against the Texans (salary cap space) to get a bigger gauranteed money over time. I.E.

W/Franchise Tag next two years = est 22.5 million

Long term contract = est 6 years 55 mill w/ 24.0 million gauranteed.

*I think what Dunta and his agent is looking at is the contract that DeAngelo Hall signed with the Redskins earlier this year which was 6yr 54 million w/22.5 gauranteed as a starting point in negotiations. Chris Gamble's deal was also for 6yr 53 million w/23 million gauranteed in 2008. All 3 of these guys were drafted in the first round of the 2004 draft Hall at #8, Dunta at #10 and Gamble at #28.

*Here is all 3 stats side by side.

D.H. GS - 72 - TKL - 301 Sacks - 1 FF - 3 INT - 22 PD - 57
C.G. - 77 - - 355 - 1 - 4 - 20 - 46
D.R . - 68 - - 329 - 4 - 5 - 13 - 45

Pantherstang84
08-07-2009, 09:39 PM
They want to retain some leverage. If Dunta's two options are a 2nd year under the franchise tag or to sign long term with the Texans their chances are better than him hitting FA. They are probably also being a bit stubborn so that when they use the tag in the future guys don't think they can influence the team with a holdout.

I'm all for that. It's time the vets learn that Casserly is gone.

DocBar
08-07-2009, 09:46 PM
Maybe Smith is trying to make sure we get SOMETHING in return if DROB bolts. How many players have we just let walk? That's the only arguement that makes sense to me. Maybe both of them picked the wrong battle to fight cuz it's looking like a lose-lose proposition.

ChampionTexan
08-07-2009, 09:53 PM
If being tagged two years in a row is so heavily favored toward Dunta, why isn't Smith willing to waive it next year?

Both these guys are being stubborn when it makes perfect sense for either side to give in.

Why does it make sense for either side to give in?

You've stated repeatedly (correctly I might add) that the terms of the long-term contract Dunta turned down are nothing more than speculation to those of us on this board. The widely held belief that Dunta's overrated and not worth the franchise tender amount is also only speculation, and the reality is nobody knows the Texans true belief about the value of Dunta Robinson if (and "if" is a huge component of this theory) he can return to pre-injury or almost pre-injury form.

Could it be that the Texans truly do view Dunta as a top-5 CB if he can get back to 95% (just to arbitrarily put a number on it) or better of his pre-injury form? Could it be that while Dunta may not be a top 5 "Shut-down" CB, that there are other skills he brings to the table in addition to a not quite "Shut-down" coverage ability? If the Texans are concerned about Dunta's recovery, but can make a 1-time payment of $10 Million to put themselves in a position to benefit from a full/close to full recovery, but risk zero beyond that if Dunta never fully recovers, why shouldn't they afford themselves that opportunity?

Nobody knows anything for sure - and I don't know what the Texans viewpoint of the value of a fully healthy Dunta is, but if the CBA negotiated by Dunta's union gives the Texans the clear-cut ability to pay handsomely for a year of his services, and then make a one-sided decision about whether they want him back, why should they not avail themselves of that? It's a smart business move, and a smart football move.

The risk is that Dunta holding out until after the last pre-season game costs them a victory or two in the first part of the season. If Smith/Kubiak/McNair genuinely view that as worth the risk (which is the $9.957 Million Dollar question), how can you trivialize that as mere stubborness?

Runner
08-07-2009, 10:05 PM
If being tagged two years in a row is so heavily favored toward Dunta, why isn't Smith willing to waive it next year?

Both these guys are being stubborn when it makes perfect sense for either side to give in.

Why does it make sense for either side to give in?

You've stated repeatedly (correctly I might add) that the terms of the long-term contract Dunta turned down are nothing more than speculation to those of us on this board. The speculation that Dunta's overrated and not worth the franchise tender amount is also pretty much an opinion of outsiders, and the reality is nobody knows the Texans true belief about the value of Dunta Robinson if (and "if" is a huge component of this theory) he can return to pre-injury or almost pre-injury form.

Could it be that the Texans truly do view Dunta as a top-5 CB if he can get back to 95% (just to arbitrarily put a number on it) or better of his pre-injury form? Could it be that while Dunta may not be a top 5 "Shut-down" CB, that there are other skills he brings to the table in addition to a not quite "Shut-down" coverage ability? If the Texans are concerned about Dunta's recovery, but can make a 1-time payment of $10 Million to put themselves in a position to benefit from a full/close to full recovery, but risk zero beyond that if Dunta never fully recovers, why shouldn't they afford themselves that opportunity?

Nobody knows anything for sure - and I don't know what the Texans viewpoint of the value of a fully healthy Dunta is, but if the CBA negotiated by Dunta's union gives the Texans the clear-cut ability to pay handsomely for a year of his services, and then make a one-sided decision about whether they want him back, why should they not avail themselves of that. It's a smart business move, and a smart football move.

The risk is that Dunta holding out until after the last pre-season game costs them a victory or two in the first part of the season. If Smith/Kubiak/McNair genuinely view that as worth the risk (which is the $9.957 Million Dollar question), how can you trivialize that as mere stubborness?

Well, first of all I don't trivialize $10M. It's a lot for Dunta; it's a lot for the Texans to pay. However, it is also one of the few truly known variables in the situation. It is a given.

Other than that, you make a good point. I've listened to so much trashing of Dunta by fans I'm not really considering what the football minds might think. While I don't think Smith and Kubiak are perfect talent evaluators, I need to think about the view of the expert versus that of the hebetude.

Specnatz
08-07-2009, 10:18 PM
It seems like removing the franchise tag is a simple thing. It only protects the Texans if he he plays very well this year and would then command a big free agent contract. If he only plays average, they wouldn't want to pay him $12M anyway. I hope Rick Smith isn't just being stubborn and trying to save face, or worse yet delaying the signing just to send a message.

It was also good to hear Dunta doesn't sound as irrational and spiteful as he's been painted here. He knows he needs to be in camp. He needs to consider pulling the trigger too. He and Smith are both being very stubborn.

I do not think a GM or a coach would ever tell a player that they are not worth franchising. Dunta is not an stupid and his agent is not a complete moron, could this be spin to put D-Rob into a more positive light because he has been taking a PR hit on message boards.

As far as the ICOU and Haynesworth go there were stipulations attached to if the franchise tag could be used again. ProBowl, so much of the Defensive plays and something else. I wonder if Dunta would accept any of these conditions like others have done, as he is put it.

JimC
08-07-2009, 10:25 PM
There is no reason to get involved in the details of all this. The bottom line is simple: Dunta says he wants to come back in time to be ready to play the first game. That is all I care about. I just want him to play the first game at the best of his ability.

The real question is, do you trust his judgment on how much work he needs to be ready? If you trust him to come in early enough to be ready -- even if that is next week -- then all is good. If you don't trust him to know how much work he needs to be ready, then the first game could be a bad game for him.

The next question is, do you trust the coaches to know whether he is ready? If the coaches think he isn't ready, they won't play him as if he were.

The last question is, can the rest of the team (including Bennett, Molden, Quin and MccCain) beat the Jets if the coaches decide Dunta isn't ready to play?

Personally, I think Dunta knows how to play and when he is ready. He is a leader for a reason; he loves to play. He also knows that this season is his league-wide interview. I think he will try to come in on time, and I think he will come in early enough to play well. I think he will come in at least a week earlier than John McClain predicted, because that is what is best for him.

If he doesn't come in on time, I trust the Texans coaches to recognize the fact. They will use him sparingly, and in situations where he is likely to succeed.

Finally, I like the Texans' mix of cornerbacks. I think Bennett, Molden and Quin together can help the team beat the Jets. The Titans game is a completely different story, but that will be a tough game anyway. Regardless, I think Dunta will be ready by then. That is over 6 weeks away, so it is possible Reeves will be back by then as well.

Basically, I'm an optimist. I think Dunta is willing to play when it counts and his holdout won't impact the team's win-loss record.

ObsiWan
08-07-2009, 10:33 PM
To me it seems more and more like the team is handling this the wrong way...

Why in the hell would you franchise a guy two years in a row that you think isn't worth a big contract...

A most excellent question...
...I await a reasonable answer from Mr. Smith.

Runner
08-07-2009, 10:35 PM
There is no reason to get involved in the details of all this. The bottom line is simple: Dunta says he wants to come back in time to be ready to play the first game. That is all I care about. I just want him to play the first game at the best of his ability.

The real question is, do you trust his judgment on how much work he needs to be ready? If you trust him to come in early enough to be ready -- even if that is next week -- then all is good. If you don't trust him to know how much work he needs to be ready, then the first game could be a bad game for him.

The next question is, do you trust the coaches to know whether he is ready? If the coaches think he isn't ready, they won't play him as if he were.

The last question is, can the rest of the team (including Bennett, Molden, Quin and MccCain) beat the Jets if the coaches decide Dunta isn't ready to play?

Personally, I think Dunta knows how to play and when he is ready. He is a leader for a reason; he loves to play. He also knows that this season is his league-wide interview. I think he will try to come in on time, and I think he will come in early enough to play well. I think he will come in at least a week earlier than John McClain predicted, because that is what is best for him.

If he doesn't come in on time, I trust the Texans coaches to recognize the fact. They will use him sparingly, and in situations where he is likely to succeed.

Finally, I like the Texans' mix of cornerbacks. I think Bennett, Molden and Quin together can help the team beat the Jets. The Titans game is a completely different story, but that will be a tough game anyway. Regardless, I think Dunta will be ready by then. That is over 6 weeks away, so it is possible Reeves will be back by then as well.

Basically, I'm an optimist. I think Dunta is willing to play when it counts and his holdout won't impact the team's win-loss record.

Nice second post.

GP
08-07-2009, 10:35 PM
To me it seems more and more like the team is handling this the wrong way...

Why in the hell would you franchise a guy two years in a row that you think isn't worth a big contract...

Because Dunta isn't running the organization, though I think he thinks he is.

Seriously though, I think Rick Smith isn't wanting to let go of players who were drafted highly...without getting compensation for them.

David Carr refused to be traded, so Rick Smith had to grant him a release.

Now Dunta's trying to do the same thing. He just wants out of Houston, and he wants to be a free agent. We used the franchise tag on him to keep him here.

I think Rick Smith is bound and determined that the players we draft, especially the ones like Dunta and OD and DeMeco--guys the Texans did a good job of picking in the draft(s)--that those guys are not going to start with us and then go off as free agents and make someone else better.

If so, that's a pretty good way to retain talent or at least get something in return if they want to leave. Whether that is a good strategy in the long run or not, I don't know. It could make future drafted players skiddish to come here, thinking they are doomed to play here forever with no easy "out."

Going to be interesting to see how this shakes out.

ObsiWan
08-07-2009, 10:38 PM
Maybe we could trade Dunta to New Orleans for Malcolm Jenkins who's holding out on N.O. training camp and not happy with their 1st round offer. Opinions?

a) CB is more of a 'need' than WR. we don't need him.
b) Trade one malcontent who has an NFL resume for one who hasn't played a down?
I'll have to pass on that.

Runner
08-07-2009, 10:50 PM
I'd like to see Rick Smith's spreadsheets.

JimC
08-07-2009, 11:01 PM
Because Dunta isn't running the organization, though I think he thinks he is.

Seriously though, I think Rick Smith isn't wanting to let go of players who were drafted highly...without getting compensation for them.

You may be over-analyzing the situation. I think the explanation is simple: the Texans, as an organization, don't want to create a policy that gives franchise players an incentive to hold out.

Right now, Dunta has nothing to gain by holding out; neither does the next franchise player. If he can get some kind of guarantee that the franchise tag will only be used once, then the next franchised player will have a reason to hold out to get the same guarantee.

I don't know who the team's next franchise player will be (Mario? Andre Johnson? Shaub?), but whoever it is I don't want them to have anything to gain by holding out. I want them in camp making our team as good as it can be... I bet Smith feels the same way.

edo783
08-07-2009, 11:17 PM
Here is a statement that Dunta made in the Solomon artical:

“He said I wasn’t a franchise tag-worthy player,” Robinson said. “If that’s the case, then why pay me franchise-level money? And possibly two years in a row? Doesn’t make sense to me.”

Everyone raise their hand that believes Rick Smith said that.

DiehardChris
08-07-2009, 11:24 PM
Here is a statement that Dunta made in the Solomon artical:

“He said I wasn’t a franchise tag-worthy player,” Robinson said. “If that’s the case, then why pay me franchise-level money? And possibly two years in a row? Doesn’t make sense to me.”

Everyone raise their hand that believes Rick Smith said that.

*crickets chirp*

Hooston Texan
08-07-2009, 11:38 PM
Here is a statement that Dunta made in the Solomon artical:

“He said I wasn’t a franchise tag-worthy player,” Robinson said. “If that’s the case, then why pay me franchise-level money? And possibly two years in a row? Doesn’t make sense to me.”

Everyone raise their hand that believes Rick Smith said that.

:redtowel:

I know this is speculation, but that is pretty much all we have, so here it goes: my guess is that not only did Smith say something like this in the negotiation, but that statement is what Dunta is basing his "he promised not to franchise me" lament on.

Smith's job is to negotiate, and, in this context, that entails telling the other side why their head is in the clouds. Now, if Dunta did reject a Gamble-style contract, that means his demand is pretty much the equivalent of five-plus years with each year roughly equivalent to the tag. The blunt response would be that, "That's franchise tag money; I wouldn't pay you that much for one year, let alone for five." I could see a player taking that statement as a promise not to make the tag--I know, not quite the same thing, but we're talking about the heat of a negotiation, words can get twisted to suit one's sides arguments after-the-fact.

Contract negotiations with players are delicate things for a GM: they often need to deflate the player's ego in order to get them thinking reasonably (see: Crabtree, Michael), but, at the same time, they have to worry about whether the player's ego cannot rationally handle such deflationary efforts.

steelbtexan
08-07-2009, 11:53 PM
Dunta needs to be ready for the first game and play well if he wants to get that LTC from the Texans or another team.

Dunta needs to have a big year just as much as the Texans need him to have a big year.

The Texans have all of the leverage and they are using it. IMO

Good Business

Pantherstang84
08-07-2009, 11:54 PM
Here is a statement that Dunta made in the Solomon artical:

“He said I wasn’t a franchise tag-worthy player,” Robinson said. “If that’s the case, then why pay me franchise-level money? And possibly two years in a row? Doesn’t make sense to me.”

Everyone raise their hand that believes Rick Smith said that.

Hmmm, Any takers?

V3rm0nt3r
08-07-2009, 11:56 PM
Hes not sitting out the whole season though, those guys aren't going to have to play his position in the games that actually count.

i understand that but asking him to step in straight off the couch in a new scheme with a new position coach and a new coordinator is going to be disastrous if thats what it comes down to.

V3rm0nt3r
08-08-2009, 12:01 AM
Hmmm, Any takers?

i'd believe that. i doubt very many people actually believe that DR is worth 9 mil a year even though thats what we're paying him. i've been critical of Smith this offseason as he has now successfully pissed off two of our best three defensive players as well as our pro bowl tight end but if i were him i would have stated the same argument. DR is a good CB, and a better guy to have on the team for his leadership, however, he is not worth giving a long term deal that would give him 9 mil a year like AJ is.

bckey
08-08-2009, 12:09 AM
I hope Rick Smith never gives up the right to franchise a player twice. It makes no sense. He will only use it on Dunta if he plays like a top 5 cb and then tries to leave. If he stinks or is just average then I don't think Smith would use it. Rick Smith wins by getting a 1 year look at Dunta without be committed long term. Its not like he didn't try and sign him. If he likes what he sees then he will sign him (fat chance) or tag him. It is win/win for Smith to keep the option of tagging Dunta a 2nd time.

You guys that think Smith should give in would be wishing Smith hadn't done that if Dunta has a really great season and then just leaves no matter what we offer him.

Dunta is mad because just when he thought he could walk away he got tagged. He most likely wasn't going to sign anything Smith offered. For whatever reason he doesn't want to be in Houston. He is doing his best to make the fans not want him here either.

Ckw
08-08-2009, 12:13 AM
Why does it make sense for either side to give in?

It didn't until July 15. I understand Dunta wanting to get what he thinks he is worth. I think he overestimates his value especially given the injury he sustained, but I understand wanting to get your big pay day.

What I don't understand is how it benefits Dunta to continue holding out. They can't sign a long-term deal anymore, so what does it benefit Dunta. As I stated before if Dunta has a big time year and actually wants to play for the Texans, he will get the type of contract he is looking for. If he doesn't play well, why would we franchise him if it doesn't look like he is going to be the same after his injury?

Once again, I truly believe Dunta's frustration stems from no longer wanting to be in Houston. He wants the opportunity to shop himself around and pick his destination. Houston would have to pay him stupid money for him to even consider playing here.

The real question is, do you trust his judgment on how much work he needs to be ready? If you trust him to come in early enough to be ready -- even if that is next week -- then all is good. If you don't trust him to know how much work he needs to be ready, then the first game could be a bad game for him.

No, I don't trust his judgment. If we were running the exact same defense as last year, I would trust him to be ready. That is not the case, and he needs to be in camp or at the latest make it to at least two preseason games.

The next question is, do you trust the coaches to know whether he is ready? If the coaches think he isn't ready, they won't play him as if he were.

I do. The only scary part is what will Dunta's reaction be if Kubiak/Smith tell Dunta he isn't ready to get out there and bench him the first and possibly even the second game.

The last question is, can the rest of the team (including Bennett, Molden, Quin and MccCain) beat the Jets if the coaches decide Dunta isn't ready to play?

I hope. Maybe Bennett steps up like he did his rookie year and proves to be a legit #1 corner. Maybe Quinn turns out to be the steal of the draft. Maybe Molden actually stays healthy. I hope.

Finally, I like the Texans' mix of cornerbacks. I think Bennett, Molden and Quin together can help the team beat the Jets. The Titans game is a completely different story, but that will be a tough game anyway. Regardless, I think Dunta will be ready by then. That is over 6 weeks away, so it is possible Reeves will be back by then as well.

Basically, I'm an optimist. I think Dunta is willing to play when it counts and his holdout won't impact the team's win-loss record.

I agree with you about the corners we have. My hope is that a combination of our corners step up and make Dunta expendable. That would be great.

I know this is speculation, but that is pretty much all we have, so here it goes: my guess is that not only did Smith say something like this in the negotiation, but that statement is what Dunta is basing his "he promised not to franchise me" lament on.

Smith's job is to negotiate, and, in this context, that entails telling the other side why their head is in the clouds. Now, if Dunta did reject a Gamble-style contract, that means his demand is pretty much the equivalent of five-plus years with each year roughly equivalent to the tag. The blunt response would be that, "That's franchise tag money; I wouldn't pay you that much for one year, let alone for five." I could see a player taking that statement as a promise not to make the tag--I know, not quite the same thing, but we're talking about the heat of a negotiation, words can get twisted to suit one's sides arguments after-the-fact.

Very good points. I agree that this might be exactly what happened. Maybe Smith was trying to get Dunta to realize how good of a deal he was offering considering Dunta's injury and told him he wasn't worth franchising. When Dunta turned down the offer, Smith did exactly what any GM should do and franchised him.

Contract negotiations with players are delicate things for a GM: they often need to deflate the player's ego in order to get them thinking reasonably (see: Crabtree, Michael), but, at the same time, they have to worry about whether the player's ego cannot rationally handle such deflationary efforts.

Yep. Negotiations were even more difficult when you throw Dunta's injury into the equation.

All I can say is I am just ready for this whole fiasco to be over with.

Hervoyel
08-08-2009, 12:13 AM
What I don't understand is why if he wants to play here he is even worried about getting franchised next year. If we want him that bad and he wants to be a Texans his whole career, then surely we would reach an agreement next year. The thing is he doesn't want to be a Texan. He even alluded to being offered close to the 23 mil guaranteed he wanted but still turned it down. I don't remember all the times it has happened but a majority of the time that a player is franchised two years in a row it is because the player does not want to play for that team anymore. They want out.

All this really makes me wonder if we had not franchised Dunta what would have happened. Would any team have been willing to give a player that just came off the injury Dunta had the kind of money Dunta supposedly wants? I really don't think so, and it would have been interesting to see just how much Dunta wants to be a Texan. I would be willing to be we probably offered him more than most teams would have been willing. :bat:

I'd say that's possible (that we offered him more than most other teams would consider) but there's always that one stupid team that's going to throw dumb money at a player who has never been to a Pro Bowl and who is coming off of a really bad injury.

I believe the following things and I base that belief on nothing more than what I've read in the papers and seen on television. I base it on the feeling Dunta gives me when he talks on camera about this and on his choice of words when I read him quoted.

Dunta wants to leave Houston. I don't have a doubt in my mind that he's gone the moment he becomes a free agent.

Dunta would sign with anyone willing to pay him what he thinks he's worth. If we don't tag him next year he'll be one of those guys who signs at one minute past midnight on the day free agency starts.

The current stalemate doesn't help anybody. The Texans aren't going to be able to keep him past this season so why not tell him that if he meets certain incentives (as is commonly done) then he won't get franchised and then get his ass in camp. If he holds out until the season starts he'll be behind in the new system and he'll play like crap for a large part of the year. It hurts his chances of getting that fat contract he wants somewhere else. It hurts the Texans chances of winning games this year. It's in everyone's best interest (including Dunta) to get back on the field and start working.

As things stand though I'd prepare for a season without him and get our current corners ready to play. I'd go ahead and give him his promise that we would not franchise him in exchange for a promise to allow us the right to match any deal he is offered. Even if it's just a verbal agreement on his part I'd make that a very public condition of agreeing to not franchise him.

Then he'd come into camp and could try to win one of those CB spots. If he can then great, we play him and let him do his contract-year thing flying around the field and making as many plays as he can. Then we see what happens.

V3rm0nt3r
08-08-2009, 12:24 AM
I hope Rick Smith never gives up the right to franchise a player twice. It makes no sense. He will only use it on Dunta if he plays like a top 5 cb and then tries to leave. If he stinks or is just average then I don't think Smith would use it. Rick Smith wins by getting a 1 year look at Dunta without be committed long term. Its not like he didn't try and sign him. If he likes what he sees then he will sign him (fat chance) or tag him. It is win/win for Smith to keep the option of tagging Dunta a 2nd time.

You guys that think Smith should give in would be wishing Smith hadn't done that if Dunta has a really great season and then just leaves no matter what we offer him.

Dunta is mad because just when he thought he could walk away he got tagged. He most likely wasn't going to sign anything Smith offered. For whatever reason he doesn't want to be in Houston. He is doing his best to make the fans not want him here either.

except for the fact that Smith won't have him for this season and this is supposed to be THE year. in my opinion it's a win lose. lets say he signs over the rights to the franchise tag next year. Dunta comes to camp and is ready to roll opening day. lets assume he stays healthy and has a productive year. now, next year comes around and lets say that Dunta doesn't want to stay here. do you really want a guy who doesn't want to be here becoming this big distraction in the locker room? i mean i know thats whats happening this year but we NEED him at this point. so, assuming he wants to leave he signs elsewhere and we move on with Reeves Bennett Quin Molden McCain and probably a high draft pick next year.

now, Smith doesn't sign the rights over, DR shows up opening day without a CLUE what is going on, the secondary is as much as you can expect with the guys that are on the team, DR doesn't have start playing like DR until week 4 or 5 and next offseason we go through this entire process AGAIN. pick the one you fancy.

buddyboy
08-08-2009, 12:29 AM
It didn't until July 15. I understand Dunta wanting to get what he thinks he is worth. I think he overestimates his value especially given the injury he sustained, but I understand wanting to get your big pay day.

What I don't understand is how it benefits Dunta to continue holding out. They can't sign a long-term deal anymore, so what does it benefit Dunta. As I stated before if Dunta has a big time year and actually wants to play for the Texans, he will get the type of contract he is looking for. If he doesn't play well, why would we franchise him if it doesn't look like he is going to be the same after his injury?

Once again, I truly believe Dunta's frustration stems from no longer wanting to be in Houston. He wants the opportunity to shop himself around and pick his destination. Houston would have to pay him stupid money for him to even consider playing here.



No, I don't trust his judgment. If we were running the exact same defense as last year, I would trust him to be ready. That is not the case, and he needs to be in camp or at the latest make it to at least two preseason games.



Agreed on all points. Looking at this from the FO's POV, there is no doubt that this is the right business decision. Here you have a guy who has been regressing every season after his rookie season, and sustained a major injury and hasn't proven that he's up to speed yet. What you really would like to do is sign him to a low risk one year deal and see if he really is back and then sign him to a longer term deal the year after that. And the CBA gives us that in the Franchise Tag. The perfect solution, at least in the FO's point of view. If he performs, and he WANTS to be in Houston (which I doubt), he'll get the contract he wants (probably). If he doesn't perform, then he probably won't get signed to a big deal by Houston, and definitely won't get Franchise Tagged again.

In neither of those situations does he get tagged a second time. The ONLY way he would get tagged again is if he performs but tries to run off, which is IMO the most likely thing DR is trying to do. Get a chance to show off his stuff for one year at a top-5 CB salary, then run off to the highest paying suitor. Of course he's going to say he wants to be in Houston, DR has always been good at getting the fanbase to love him.

The last reason this is a good business decision from the FO, again, purely from their perspective, is that this sets a precedent. This is the first time dealing with a Franchise tagged player, and if we cave into DR's demands, every franchised player from now on is going to demand similar things. This *new* regime needs to show what kind of FO they're going to be. If they play the smart, hardball, business standpoint, and end up losing DR, I won't judge them. They made decision they thought was right and future players will know that the FO isn't just going to give in.

Lucky
08-08-2009, 12:32 AM
“He said I wasn’t a franchise tag-worthy player,” Robinson said.

Everyone raise their hand that believes Rick Smith said that.

http://cdn.picapp.com/ftp/Images/4/d/c/0/72.JPG?adImageId=1548762&imageId=3288714

Barbs like that are traded by both sides during negotiations. Doesn't mean squat.

Htownsportsfan
08-08-2009, 12:36 AM
A most excellent question...
...I await a reasonable answer from Mr. Smith.

So they have him to trade! I would bet they have not intention of franchising him and paying him for two years. But if he continues to over value his skills and wont sign a long term deal you franchise him next year and trad ehim to a team that has pre-arranged a long term deal wit him. While it may piss of Dunta and some of the fans its a good safety net since they failed to get a deal done. They damn sure better not let him walk for nothing which is what will happen if he has a good year and hits the open market. There are always teams in this league willing to over pay for DB talent. While franchising him this year makes him overpaid for one year it gives the Texans a full season to see what skills Dunta has after the injury. Again, it may not always be popular but in terms of what protects the team from over paying long term or losing Dunta for nothing this is the best option.

ObsiWan
08-08-2009, 12:36 AM
http://cdn.picapp.com/ftp/Images/4/d/c/0/72.JPG?adImageId=1548762&imageId=3288714

Barbs like that are traded by both sides during negotiations. Doesn't mean squat.

now that's funny
:spit:

edo783
08-08-2009, 12:55 AM
Barbs like that are traded by both sides during negotiations. Doesn't mean squat.

So, you think that is an acceptable negotiations tactic? I have negotiated multi-million dollar deals all over the world (some in the 10 digit area) and I have yet to try that tactic. Lets see, you verbally slap a person in the face, set up a major hostile atmosphere and then expect to have things progress from there? I know some folks think you gain a tactical advantage if you do that, but all you do is dig a deep hole of hostility that is VERY difficult to dig out of. You keep things civil and work to identify common areas of agreement then identify areas of disagreement and then work those one at a time to a mutually agreeable conclusion. It takes time, firmness, willingness and a little finesse. One of the most important things in a deal is to be willing to walk away if it isn't right or in this case, throw the F-tag to protect the corporate asset.

beerlover
08-08-2009, 01:03 AM
So, you think that is an acceptable negotiations tactic? I have negotiated multi-million dollar deals all over the world (some in the 10 digit area) and I have yet to try that tactic. Lets see, you verbally slap a person in the face, set up a major hostile atmosphere and then expect to have things progress from there? I know some folks think you gain a tactical advantage if you do that, but all you do is dig a deep hole of hostility that is VERY difficult to dig out of. You keep things civil and work to identify common areas of agreement then identify areas of disagreement and then work those one at a time to a mutually agreeable conclusion. It takes time, firmness, willingness and a little finesse. One of the most important things in a deal is to be willing to walk away if it isn't right or in this case, throw the F-tag to protect the corporate asset.

Cold, hard true facts. unfortunate, disappointing that Dunta Robinson has become strictly a corporate asset. Where's the love :heart:

JimC
08-08-2009, 01:04 AM
Agreed on all points. Looking at this from the FO's POV, there is no doubt that this is the right business decision. Here you have a guy who has been regressing every season after his rookie season, and sustained a major injury and hasn't proven that he's up to speed yet. What you really would like to do is sign him to a low risk one year deal and see if he really is back and then sign him to a longer term deal the year after that. And the CBA gives us that in the Franchise Tag. The perfect solution, at least in the FO's point of view. If he performs, and he WANTS to be in Houston (which I doubt), he'll get the contract he wants (probably). If he doesn't perform, then he probably won't get signed to a big deal by Houston, and definitely won't get Franchise Tagged again.

In neither of those situations does he get tagged a second time. The ONLY way he would get tagged again is if he performs but tries to run off, which is IMO the most likely thing DR is trying to do. Get a chance to show off his stuff for one year at a top-5 CB salary, then run off to the highest paying suitor. Of course he's going to say he wants to be in Houston, DR has always been good at getting the fanbase to love him.

The last reason this is a good business decision from the FO, again, purely from their perspective, is that this sets a precedent. This is the first time dealing with a Franchise tagged player, and if we cave into DR's demands, every franchised player from now on is going to demand similar things. This *new* regime needs to show what kind of FO they're going to be. If they play the smart, hardball, business standpoint, and end up losing DR, I won't judge them. They made decision they thought was right and future players will know that the FO isn't just going to give in.

Adding to this, I don't think the Texans WANT him back after next year. They have been drafting cornerbacks every year, and they look to have a pretty good group now. By the end of this year, Bennett and Molden should be ready to start, Reeves will be available as a backup/nickel corner, and Quin and McCain will be waiting in the wings as the next generation. Plus, they are likely to draft another one next year.

I think the Texans believe that 3rd, 4th and 5th year mid-round picks are the most cost-effective solutions at cornerback. Such players are experienced enough to be coached up, but young enough to be at their peak athletic ability. They are also early enough in their career to be restricted free agents, so they are inexpensive. Offering a 6th or 7th year corner a big long-term contract just ensures he will be on the roster when he finally loses a step. If I am right about this philosophy, the Texans will draft a corner in the 3rd or 4th round nearly every year. (They have done this in the last 3 years.)

The Texans play a great deal of man coverage, and they like fast cover corners. Dunta is better against the run than in man coverage, and fits better in a zone scheme where he can stay close to the line of scrimage. He has great leadership qualities, but he is currently acting like a diva and that undermines his leadership.

He is a poor fit for their scheme, and has become a pain to deal with. They need one more year to develop Bennett and Molden into starters, and to get Quin ready to see the field. Unless something unforeseen happens, they won't need or want Dunta next year.

Franchising Dunta again is the last thing the Texans want to do. They simply can't afford to set a precedent for future franchised players to follow.

Ckw
08-08-2009, 01:11 AM
except for the fact that Smith won't have him for this season and this is supposed to be THE year. in my opinion it's a win lose. lets say he signs over the rights to the franchise tag next year. Dunta comes to camp and is ready to roll opening day. lets assume he stays healthy and has a productive year. now, next year comes around and lets say that Dunta doesn't want to stay here. do you really want a guy who doesn't want to be here becoming this big distraction in the locker room? i mean i know thats whats happening this year but we NEED him at this point. so, assuming he wants to leave he signs elsewhere and we move on with Reeves Bennett Quin Molden McCain and probably a high draft pick next year.

now, Smith doesn't sign the rights over, DR shows up opening day without a CLUE what is going on, the secondary is as much as you can expect with the guys that are on the team, DR doesn't have start playing like DR until week 4 or 5 and next offseason we go through this entire process AGAIN. pick the one you fancy.

Exactly. This is a high risk/reward situation. If Dunta comes in and is ready to play, great. I am ok with anyone that helps us win. I may not like the person, but I will cheer if things they do help us win. If Dunta is not ready, causes problems in the locker room, and doesn't look much better than he did last season, I don't see us making the playoffs. That being said, I believe if Dunta doesn't play at all, we will still be a playoff contender. People that say team chemistry doesn't matter just need to look at the Dallas Cowgirls of the last few years.

The last reason this is a good business decision from the FO, again, purely from their perspective, is that this sets a precedent. This is the first time dealing with a Franchise tagged player, and if we cave into DR's demands, every franchised player from now on is going to demand similar things. This *new* regime needs to show what kind of FO they're going to be. If they play the smart, hardball, business standpoint, and end up losing DR, I won't judge them. They made decision they thought was right and future players will know that the FO isn't just going to give in.

Great perspective!! I hadn't really thought about that, but you are right. How the FO handles Dunta will set the tone for all other negotiations. If they appear weak, players will believe they can do whatever they want and request whatever they want. The key is finding a way for the FO to be firm but fair. I believe/hope they will find the balance.

So, you think that is an acceptable negotiations tactic? I have negotiated multi-million dollar deals all over the world (some in the 10 digit area) and I have yet to try that tactic. Lets see, you verbally slap a person in the face, set up a major hostile atmosphere and then expect to have things progress from there? I know some folks think you gain a tactical advantage if you do that, but all you do is dig a deep hole of hostility that is VERY difficult to dig out of. You keep things civil and work to identify common areas of agreement then identify areas of disagreement and then work those one at a time to a mutually agreeable conclusion. It takes time, firmness, willingness and a little finesse. One of the most important things in a deal is to be willing to walk away if it isn't right or in this case, throw the F-tag to protect the corporate asset.

IF Rick Smith said this (and that is a big IF), I believe he was simply communicating his desire to give Dunta what would be fair for both sides. A pretty large contract with lower guaranteed compensation is the best decision for the organization when dealing with a player that may never be the player he once was. Rick Smith offering him that kind of a deal, and a good deal has been reported by numerous sources, is a huge show of respect to Dunta. If Dunta were to come out and show he is still the same player, he would walk away with every cent of that contract. If he isn't the same, he still gets his guaranteed $18M. I really, once again, can't see how anyone can defend Dunta in this whole debacle.

JimC
08-08-2009, 01:12 AM
So, you think that is an acceptable negotiations tactic? I have negotiated multi-million dollar deals all over the world (some in the 10 digit area) and I have yet to try that tactic. Lets see, you verbally slap a person in the face, set up a major hostile atmosphere and then expect to have things progress from there? I know some folks think you gain a tactical advantage if you do that, but all you do is dig a deep hole of hostility that is VERY difficult to dig out of. You keep things civil and work to identify common areas of agreement then identify areas of disagreement and then work those one at a time to a mutually agreeable conclusion. It takes time, firmness, willingness and a little finesse. One of the most important things in a deal is to be willing to walk away if it isn't right or in this case, throw the F-tag to protect the corporate asset.

A sign-and-trade deal makes a lot of sense for the team, and it is a great way to use the THREAT of a franchise tag, but you better be very certain there is a market available before you actually apply the franchise tag. An $11 million gamble is pretty risky, even for an NFL team. Also, applying the franchise tag would lock up $11 million of cap room, limiting your ability to sign free agents, match offers to restricted free agents, or resign your own players.

This tactic certainly worked out for the Patriots last year, but Kubiak doesn't know as many people as Belichik and Dunta isn't a QB with an 11-5 record...

If they can make it work, then trading Dunta for a 3rd or 4th round pick could set a great precedent for a long-term plan at cornerback. (See my previous post.)

Texan JBZ
08-08-2009, 01:23 AM
i'd believe that. i doubt very many people actually believe that DR is worth 9 mil a year even though thats what we're paying him. i've been critical of Smith this offseason as he has now successfully pissed off two of our best three defensive players as well as our pro bowl tight end but if i were him i would have stated the same argument. DR is a good CB, and a better guy to have on the team for his leadership, however, he is not worth giving a long term deal that would give him 9 mil a year like AJ is.

Critical of Smith? Why? I believe the reports out there about what was offered to Dumbta, DeMeco, and Owen. All three of these guys would have been among the Top 5 paid players at their positions if they had signed their contract offers. What more can Smith do? Its not like the Texans are afraid to pay their players good money. Schaub is the highest paid QB this season. AJ is paid in the Top 5 of WRs. Winston is paid very well too. These guys are full of crap. I can see if they came out and vehemently dismissed these contract offers as falsified statements by the media. Not one of these guys or their agents have refuted what the media has leaked out about their contract negotitations. I can't sit here and blame Smith if he's not letting guys run the contract negotiatios. It's his job to what is best for the organization and keep them out of salary cap hell.

I'm okay with the way that the Texans are running things right now. If you look at the better organizations around the NFL, they very seldom fold to a disgruntled player. The Eagles, Patriots, Ravens, Steelers, and Giants usually never give in. The teams that are poorly run, such as the Redskins, Raiders, and Cowboys seem to always give into the players and overpay for them. It looks like my Texans are following the former rather than the latter, which is a good thing for us fans whether we realize it or not.

Shaft75
08-08-2009, 01:32 AM
I cherish the fact that this thread exists; talking about franchising a top notch player and all. Think back to the dog days of our organization when nobody could objectively chat about anything without getting in extremely heated arguments of dc or vy or whoever. It's gratifying to read posts with the "team first" attitude.

Some enjoyable reading in here...

I'm on the Dunta shut your c holster and play ball team...obviously.

Ckw
08-08-2009, 01:39 AM
I cherish the fact that this thread exists; talking about franchising a top notch player and all. Think back to the dog days of our organization when nobody could objectively chat about anything without getting in extremely heated arguments of dc or vy or whoever. It's gratifying to read posts with the "team first" attitude.

Some enjoyable reading in here...

I'm on the Dunta shut your c holster and play ball team...obviously.

Good times, huh? I felt like every post then had to end with :bat:

bckey
08-08-2009, 02:15 AM
except for the fact that Smith won't have him for this season and this is supposed to be THE year. in my opinion it's a win lose. lets say he signs over the rights to the franchise tag next year. Dunta comes to camp and is ready to roll opening day. lets assume he stays healthy and has a productive year. now, next year comes around and lets say that Dunta doesn't want to stay here. do you really want a guy who doesn't want to be here becoming this big distraction in the locker room? i mean i know thats whats happening this year but we NEED him at this point. so, assuming he wants to leave he signs elsewhere and we move on with Reeves Bennett Quin Molden McCain and probably a high draft pick next year.

now, Smith doesn't sign the rights over, DR shows up opening day without a CLUE what is going on, the secondary is as much as you can expect with the guys that are on the team, DR doesn't have start playing like DR until week 4 or 5 and next offseason we go through this entire process AGAIN. pick the one you fancy.

Dunta will have to play his best football this year if he wants a payday next season. Period. I'm with the crowd that says let him fly in just before the season starts and then pull the offer off the table. You are too late to be a part of the team this season. I'm not paying you nearly $10 million dollars for less than a full season. Bye.

We get no compensation but you cut out a cancer before it spreads.

DocBar
08-08-2009, 02:49 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6565222.html

Another piece on Robinson. I wish he'd just get in camp and get on with the season. If he plays well, he'll cash in next year, also, tag or no tag.

painekiller
08-08-2009, 02:59 AM
football players want job security. In a year to year league, wanting a multi-year deal to set yourself up financially isn't selfish. I wouldn't want to be the guy who never gets a big contract, gets tagged repeatedly and discarded. He has proved to me that he is our best cornerback. I'd like him for a longterm deal. I also think the franchise tag screws his life up if he gets injured. I wouldn't take the tag 2 straight years. Thats playing russian roulette with your money for the rest of your life. I think everybody in here throwing stones at him doesn't understand the business nature of this game and doesn't realize how important of a piece he is to our secondary. I wish dunta the best and hope he gets the long term security he wants and the money he deserves, and I hope its with the Texans, because we won't find another Dunta Robinson

Aaron Glen was on 610 the other morning, it's linked in the other Dunta thread, in the interview they told Aaron, Dunta turned down $23M guaranteed, and Glenn goes that would have been one of the highest paid CB in football.

Now that offer if true, is worth more than Dunta is worth, until he becomes a true pro bowler. IMO.

Now if he get hurt this season, then he screwed up not taking the money.

If he has a great year and again does not agree to a great offer, then he could be franchised for around $12M. Still less than was reportedly offered, again, Dunta screwed up in not sign the offer this off season.

Any person that cannot survive on $20M for the rest of his life, is messed up. Dunta has an inflated view of himself, IMO. He lost money with every move he has made in this negotiation. And maybe heading to less money this year.

painekiller
08-08-2009, 03:08 AM
Same question then - why doesn't Smith just agree to not franchise tag next year?

Because it means Dunta walks with nothing for the Texans in return. Sure a year later we might get a 3rd or 4th round compensatory pick.

I say tell his agent to work out a trade, go find a team. He will have to sign his offer sheet to be traded.

Not many teams will be willing to pay him $9.8M

edo783
08-08-2009, 03:19 AM
I'm not sure what I'm going to write is possible or not. Why can't his agent get a team to agree to a deal (IIRC the F-tag Dunta's under allows that) and then we just do the F-tag at a lower rate that corresponds to the new agreed amount so that the acquiring team isn't hit with a 10 million dollar amount. I know we can't up the F-tag amount, but can the player agree to a lesser amount? Then we turn around and agree to less than the 2 first round picks that would be normal. Heck, I would go for just a 3rd at this point. Just spitballing and like I said, I'm not sure that would be allowed. Of course it would require an agent to stop grandstanding his client and get out and beat the bushes to find a deal.

Pantherstang84
08-08-2009, 07:01 AM
Adding to this, I don't think the Texans WANT him back after next year. They have been drafting cornerbacks every year, and they look to have a pretty good group now. By the end of this year, Bennett and Molden should be ready to start, Reeves will be available as a backup/nickel corner, and Quin and McCain will be waiting in the wings as the next generation. Plus, they are likely to draft another one next year.

I think the Texans believe that 3rd, 4th and 5th year mid-round picks are the most cost-effective solutions at cornerback. Such players are experienced enough to be coached up, but young enough to be at their peak athletic ability. They are also early enough in their career to be restricted free agents, so they are inexpensive. Offering a 6th or 7th year corner a big long-term contract just ensures he will be on the roster when he finally loses a step. If I am right about this philosophy, the Texans will draft a corner in the 3rd or 4th round nearly every year. (They have done this in the last 3 years.)

The Texans play a great deal of man coverage, and they like fast cover corners. Dunta is better against the run than in man coverage, and fits better in a zone scheme where he can stay close to the line of scrimage. He has great leadership qualities, but he is currently acting like a diva and that undermines his leadership.

He is a poor fit for their scheme, and has become a pain to deal with. They need one more year to develop Bennett and Molden into starters, and to get Quin ready to see the field. Unless something unforeseen happens, they won't need or want Dunta next year.

Franchising Dunta again is the last thing the Texans want to do. They simply can't afford to set a precedent for future franchised players to follow.

Great post!:highfive:

ubecool454
08-08-2009, 08:18 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6564888.html

Sounds fair to me.

ubecool454
08-08-2009, 08:21 AM
Trade him now and get him out of here and sign Chris Mcalister to a two year deal and call it a day no need to waste time on a guy that doesn't want to be in houston we can find players who want to be here with that 10 million.

Did you read the article at all??????

Malloy
08-08-2009, 08:57 AM
At this point Im fairly apathetic about the whole deal. Honestly I just want it over and done with, regardless of what happens.

The sooner this issue is resolved the sooner the team can concentrate on what really matters, getting the defense function properly so we can kick some serious ash...

nunusguy
08-08-2009, 09:26 AM
For Robinson its an issue about geography not money. He does not want to be playing ball here in Houston and/or he's got another city/team he wants to living in/playing for. So forget about the congract terms, that's not the issue here. Where does he want to go ? I have no idea, but it's not Houston, TX.

TexanBacker93
08-08-2009, 09:44 AM
To me it seems more and more like the team is handling this the wrong way...

Why in the hell would you franchise a guy two years in a row that you think isn't worth a big contract...

Maybe they don't want to make that promise because they don't want to set a precedent that other players will expect. They might not have any plans on franchising him next season, but don't want to set themselves up.

As far as trading him, I don't think they would get better than a 3rd round pick for him right now. If he comes back, has a great season, and stays healthy, they might be able to trade him for a late 2nd. A lot would depend on what the corner depth is in FA and in the draft next year.

Koolaid Time
08-08-2009, 09:55 AM
I cherish the fact that this thread exists; talking about franchising a top notch player and all. Think back to the dog days of our organization when nobody could objectively chat about anything without getting in extremely heated arguments of dc or vy or whoever. It's gratifying to read posts with the "team first" attitude.

Some enjoyable reading in here...

I'm on the Dunta shut your c holster and play ball team...obviously.

I'm in favor of a sign and trade. Get him out of here in return for someone else.

Dunta shows up the last week of camp, he better expect to ride the bench for 3 weeks while he gets in shape and learns the calls. If he insists on starting, then its going to be fun to watch the Jets pick on him. And if he blows a coverage, the fans will give him Hell.

infantrycak
08-08-2009, 10:21 AM
I'm not sure what I'm going to write is possible or not. Why can't his agent get a team to agree to a deal (IIRC the F-tag Dunta's under allows that) and then we just do the F-tag at a lower rate that corresponds to the new agreed amount so that the acquiring team isn't hit with a 10 million dollar amount. I know we can't up the F-tag amount, but can the player agree to a lesser amount? Then we turn around and agree to less than the 2 first round picks that would be normal. Heck, I would go for just a 3rd at this point. Just spitballing and like I said, I'm not sure that would be allowed. Of course it would require an agent to stop grandstanding his client and get out and beat the bushes to find a deal.

I believe no negotiations can go on at all until the tag is signed. If he would sign, then somebody could offer him a contract he was happy with but not sign a formal offer sheet and then negotiate lower compensation between the teams. That's what we tried to do with Pace.

pappy
08-08-2009, 10:52 AM
It seems that dunta and his agent both fail to understand the nfl and the rules everyone associated with it must follow . They seem to want to make there own rules and try to make the nfl follow them . The deadline for negotiating has passed and everyone but dunta knows this , i can assure you Rick Smith does . If this guy waits till the 1st weeks game to show up he will not play , i have come to know Kubiak well enough to know this to be certain .:dangit:

Runner
08-08-2009, 11:54 AM
It seems that dunta and his agent both fail to understand the nfl and the rules everyone associated with it must follow . They seem to want to make there own rules and try to make the nfl follow them . The deadline for negotiating has passed and everyone but dunta knows this , i can assure you Rick Smith does . If this guy waits till the 1st weeks game to show up he will not play , i have come to know Kubiak well enough to know this to be certain .:dangit:

Dunta and his agent are following the rules. So is the team.

NitroGSXR
08-08-2009, 12:37 PM
It seems that dunta and his agent both fail to understand the nfl and the rules everyone associated with it must follow . They seem to want to make there own rules and try to make the nfl follow them . The deadline for negotiating has passed and everyone but dunta knows this , i can assure you Rick Smith does . If this guy waits till the 1st weeks game to show up he will not play , i have come to know Kubiak well enough to know this to be certain .:dangit:

Dunta is no longer empolyed in the NFL. He can do whatever he wants. He's a common applicant who is restricted to emploment with only the Houston Texans.

I was glad to finally hear from Dunta Robinson. His side does not sound so lopsided after all.

Business as usual in the NFL. Wake me up on September 13th. I bet he starts.

Vinny
08-08-2009, 12:41 PM
So, you think that is an acceptable negotiations tactic? I have negotiated multi-million dollar deals all over the world (some in the 10 digit area) and I have yet to try that tactic. Lets see, you verbally slap a person in the face, set up a major hostile atmosphere and then expect to have things progress from there? I know some folks think you gain a tactical advantage if you do that, but all you do is dig a deep hole of hostility that is VERY difficult to dig out of. You keep things civil and work to identify common areas of agreement then identify areas of disagreement and then work those one at a time to a mutually agreeable conclusion. It takes time, firmness, willingness and a little finesse. One of the most important things in a deal is to be willing to walk away if it isn't right or in this case, throw the F-tag to protect the corporate asset.
I've heard that RS is a jerk from more than one person and have heard stories from people I trust about ex-players that say this in private. My view is that RS may be a great talent evaluator but he doesn't have much finesse.

ChampionTexan
08-08-2009, 12:47 PM
For Robinson its an issue about geography not money. He does not want to be playing ball here in Houston and/or he's got another city/team he wants to living in/playing for. So forget about the congract terms, that's not the issue here. Where does he want to go ? I have no idea, but it's not Houston, TX.

Two points:

The idea that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston seems to me to fall into the category of "If you say it enough times with enough certainty, almost everyone will eventually buy into it hook, line and sinker". There's lots of instances of athletes demonstrating what appeared to be great animosity towards a city (or more correctly the franchise based in a certain city), and then signing on long-term. I've heard nothing from Dunta that makes me certain that he's dead-set on leaving Houston in the rearview mirror. Body language analysis, word parsing, and "I know a guy who knows Dunta" don't mean too much to me on things like this. Besides, I also know that even if I'm totally wrong, and Dunta is dead-set on leaving Houston, it's amazing how things can change if the Texans give him enough money (or the other 31 NFL teams don't give him enough money). Yes it's about money - it's always about money.

Second, if my first point is off-base, The Texans still have the ability to guarantee (if they so choose) that for at least the next two years, Dunta either plays football for them, or he doesn't play NFL football.

Vinny
08-08-2009, 12:53 PM
Two points:

The idea that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston seems to me to fall into the category of "If you say it enough times with enough certainty, almost everyone will eventually buy into it hook, line and sinker". There's lots of instances of athletes demonstrating what appeared to be great animosity towards a city (or more correctly the franchise based in a certain city), and then signing on long-term. I've heard nothing from Dunta that makes me certain that he's dead-set on leaving Houston in the rearview mirror. Body language analysis, word parsing, and "I know a guy who knows Dunta" don't mean too much to me on things like this. Besides, I also know that even if I'm totally wrong, and Dunta is dead-set on leaving Houston, it's amazing how things can change if the Texans give him enough money (or the other 31 NFL teams don't give him enough money). Yes it's about money - it's always about money.

Second, if my first point is off-base, The Texans still have the ability to guarantee (if they so choose) that for at least the next two years, Dunta either plays football for them, or he doesn't play NFL football.
I don't think this is about being in Houston either. I think Robinson has no leverage, but is trying desperately to create some. I also think that RS has questionable people skills.

Jackie Chiles
08-08-2009, 12:54 PM
I've heard that RS is a jerk from more than one person and have heard stories from people I trust about ex-players that say this in private. My view is that RS may be a great talent evaluator but he doesn't have much finesse.

It certainly is beginning to look that way but as long as he can get the talent I can live with it. I mean look what A.J. Smith has done with the Chargers.

mussop
08-08-2009, 12:58 PM
a) CB is more of a 'need' than WR. we don't need him.
b) Trade one malcontent who has an NFL resume for one who hasn't played a down?
I'll have to pass on that.

Malcom Jenkins is a CB not a WR.

infantrycak
08-08-2009, 01:09 PM
The idea that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston seems to me to fall into the category of "If you say it enough times with enough certainty, almost everyone will eventually buy into it hook, line and sinker".

Spot on. Haven't seen anything at all that supports that oft-expressed view.

Specnatz
08-08-2009, 01:31 PM
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/0-7-571/Why-did-the-Titans-let-it-come-to-this-.html

These were the incentives:

* Make the Pro Bowl.
* Play 60 percent of the team's defensive snaps.
* Play 53 percent of the team's defensive snaps and the Titans win 10 games.
* Play 53 percent of the team's defensive snaps and the Titans finish in the NFL's top five in total defense.


Also as a note a team can franchise a player up to three times.

I will say that it does seem that RS has not been making many players happy this past year. My question is, is it an our team related issue or is it that the soon to be FA want a deal done now before a new collective bargaining agreement is in place?

I know the security of a long term deal because of a signing bonus and the cap hit of what it would take to actually cut or trade a player kind of makes the contract guaranteed for a few years even when it is not.

Brisco_County
08-08-2009, 02:15 PM
I'm so ready for this issue to be over.

The only real solution is to allow Dunta to hold out. Then, at the end of the season, the organization will know his real value and can negotiate from a much more informed position.

awtysst
08-08-2009, 02:26 PM
When conceived the franchise tag was thought to be a special designation for a player. In essence, the idea was to say this player is so valuable, that we want extra time to be able to negotiate with them.

In essence, the FT protects the team of a potentially bad contact by giving the player a big one year contract in order to see if they want to give him a bigger deal. While a big one year contract may seem like its good for the player, there is no job security.

Also think about taxes. A $9 mill contract quickly loses about half of its value in taxes. Then remember that many of these players have very little skills outside of football. Can you really retire in your mid 20s or 30s and live into your 70s on about 4.5 mill? Do the math and compare it to your bills and check it out.

Another interesting thing about this discussion is that it helps to reveal other parts about you. Are you a pro labor guy(pro Dunta) or a pro managment person (FO). Do you have a strong opnion one way or the other can reveal alot of intersting things.

That's why this issue is so interesting for me: because this issue goes far beyond DR and the FO but taps into each poster's individual values.

Hervoyel
08-08-2009, 02:38 PM
Two points:

The idea that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston seems to me to fall into the category of "If you say it enough times with enough certainty, almost everyone will eventually buy into it hook, line and sinker". There's lots of instances of athletes demonstrating what appeared to be great animosity towards a city (or more correctly the franchise based in a certain city), and then signing on long-term. I've heard nothing from Dunta that makes me certain that he's dead-set on leaving Houston in the rearview mirror. Body language analysis, word parsing, and "I know a guy who knows Dunta" don't mean too much to me on things like this. Besides, I also know that even if I'm totally wrong, and Dunta is dead-set on leaving Houston, it's amazing how things can change if the Texans give him enough money (or the other 31 NFL teams don't give him enough money). Yes it's about money - it's always about money.

Second, if my first point is off-base, The Texans still have the ability to guarantee (if they so choose) that for at least the next two years, Dunta either plays football for them, or he doesn't play NFL football.

I don't think this is about being in Houston either. I think Robinson has no leverage, but is trying desperately to create some. I also think that RS has questionable people skills.

Spot on. Haven't seen anything at all that supports that oft-expressed view.

It's just something I believe. I've come to that conclusion on my own (I think) and I could certainly be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time nor likely the last. I just really don't think he plans on staying here once he's free of that franchise tag next season (he hopes).

I don't repeat it with any desire or need to acquire converts though. Just my take.

Ckw
08-08-2009, 02:48 PM
It's just something I believe. I've come to that conclusion on my own (I think) and I could certainly be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time nor likely the last. I just really don't think he plans on staying here once he's free of that franchise tag next season (he hopes).

I don't repeat it with any desire or need to acquire converts though. Just my take.

Agreed. The thing for me is that numerous sources have reported Dunta being offered a more than acceptable contract for his services that he turned down. Then he spews this crap about how Smith promised not to franchise him, but now Dunta is spinning it trying to get everyone's sympathy by saying Smith told him he wasn't worth the franchise tag.

Yes, the idea that Dunta doesn't want to play in Houston is pure speculation, but that doesn't mean there isn't significant evidence that Dunta wants out. Now, perhaps it is less about wanting out of Houston and more about wanting to see how much he is worth and wanting to shop himself around, but regardless his agent is a moron for having him turn down the contract numerous sources report we offered him.

So in summary, I strongly believe we can at least say this: Dunta doesn't love Houston as much as we may have thought he did.

GP
08-08-2009, 02:52 PM
When conceived the franchise tag was thought to be a special designation for a player. In essence, the idea was to say this player is so valuable, that we want extra time to be able to negotiate with them.

In essence, the FT protects the team of a potentially bad contact by giving the player a big one year contract in order to see if they want to give him a bigger deal. While a big one year contract may seem like its good for the player, there is no job security.

Also think about taxes. A $9 mill contract quickly loses about half of its value in taxes. Then remember that many of these players have very little skills outside of football. Can you really retire in your mid 20s or 30s and live into your 70s on about 4.5 mill? Do the math and compare it to your bills and check it out.

Another interesting thing about this discussion is that it helps to reveal other parts about you. Are you a pro labor guy(pro Dunta) or a pro managment person (FO). Do you have a strong opnion one way or the other can reveal alot of intersting things.

That's why this issue is so interesting for me: because this issue goes far beyond DR and the FO but taps into each poster's individual values.

Rep your way.

This issue has layers.

Pro Management: The front office doesn't want to rush into a long-term deal. I am beginning to wonder if the Texans don't want to pull the same thing they did with Domanick Davis--Extra money for a player that might have one or two more seasons, at best, left in the tank. Then there's the hope that they can line up a trade and move Dunta off but still get something for it.

Pro Labor: Dunta thinks he has plenty left in the tank, possibly sees the FO restricting his ability and desire to get a long-term deal (either with Texans or another team, which Texans aren't allowing him to seek).

If he suits up for week 1, it doesn't do anything special for me in terms of what I think about him. Couldn't they get him to sign the tender but make an amendment that holds him out of contact & strenuous activity during camp and preseason? Just get him with the team, in the meetings, on the field doing running and to at least be there? This does seem like it's become a little childish on both sides.

What I do know: The Texans are willing to give him $10 million for one year. I don't care if that only comes out to $5 million. That's a problem a lot of us would love to face in life. He can make $5 million this year or nothing at all for the year. If he has enough coin to make it a year without getting paid, he'd do OK with $5 million for one year per the FT salary.

If Dunta is concerned about getting hurt, how much more is the FO worried? I'd be scared to death no matter what Dunta says about how he feels.

We're on the brink of making the playoffs, possibly starting a pretty stable team for the next few years. Some people here, especially with Reeves getting injured, are buying into exactly what Dunta has been hoping for: That something would happen that would force the FO hand.

And they responded by adding two more cornerbacks.

That's a silent commentary, by management, about whether they're going to cave to Dunta or not.

ObsiWan
08-08-2009, 02:54 PM
Malcom Jenkins is a CB not a WR.

Cranial flatulence episode.
For some reason I was thinking about Crabtree.

Still, I'd rather have the known quantity over an unproven rookie.

What's Jenkins' deal anyway; length of the contract or the money?

MojoX
08-08-2009, 03:35 PM
I believe the following things and I base that belief on nothing more than what I've read in the papers and seen on television. I base it on the feeling Dunta gives me when he talks on camera about this and on his choice of words when I read him quoted.

Dunta wants to leave Houston. I don't have a doubt in my mind that he's gone the moment he becomes a free agent.

Aaron Glen was on 610 the other morning, it's linked in the other Dunta thread, in the interview they told Aaron, Dunta turned down $23M guaranteed, and Glenn goes that would have been one of the highest paid CB in football.

I've had this feeling about Robinson since the end of last season. The evidence isn't conclusive, but it is just a feeling. I'm not saying it isn't about money; I just think it is also about changing teams. Part of it is the feeling I get watching his interviews. Part of it is the unverified, mid-season rumor that he actually wanted out of Houston. But most of it is the history of the franchise tag.

More often than not, tagged players don't re-sign with the tagging team. I've read articles suggesting that is because the tag often increases the acrimony of the negotiations by severely limiting the player's options, leading the player to do whatever it takes to generate soem leverage. Anyway, once the Texans applied the tag, I just went to hoping they would get the deals with Ryans and Daniels worked out.

If Robinson returns, I will be very surprised.

Marcus
08-08-2009, 05:17 PM
Critical of Smith? Why? I believe the reports out there about what was offered to Dumbta, DeMeco, and Owen. All three of these guys would have been among the Top 5 paid players at their positions if they had signed their contract offers. What more can Smith do? Its not like the Texans are afraid to pay their players good money. Schaub is the highest paid QB this season. AJ is paid in the Top 5 of WRs. Winston is paid very well too. These guys are full of crap. I can see if they came out and vehemently dismissed these contract offers as falsified statements by the media. Not one of these guys or their agents have refuted what the media has leaked out about their contract negotitations. I can't sit here and blame Smith if he's not letting guys run the contract negotiatios. It's his job to what is best for the organization and keep them out of salary cap hell.

I'm okay with the way that the Texans are running things right now. If you look at the better organizations around the NFL, they very seldom fold to a disgruntled player. The Eagles, Patriots, Ravens, Steelers, and Giants usually never give in. The teams that are poorly run, such as the Redskins, Raiders, and Cowboys seem to always give into the players and overpay for them. It looks like my Texans are following the former rather than the latter, which is a good thing for us fans whether we realize it or not.

Haven't gotten thru reading the entire thread, but so far this is the best one I've read yet.

Kudos!

thunderkyss
08-08-2009, 05:50 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6564888.html

That was a very good read. Makes me feel a little better about Dunta. Well, I never really had any hard feelings against him. I just don't think he's a very good Corner Back. Well, he's not a very good Cover corner anyway.

“He said I wasn’t a franchise tag-worthy player,”

I can't believe Rick Smith actually said that to him.

It's totally in line with what I'm thinking.

If the Texans are thinking like me, I can't see why they won't make the silly promise(which I wouldn't have a problem breaking next season if it comes down to it) and give him every opportunity to be ready week 1.

That is unless Dunta let his mouth get the best of him while they were in negotiations.

I mean if Smith said that about Dunta, can you imagine what Dunta said about Smith?

El Tejano
08-08-2009, 05:56 PM
Dunta just wants out of Houston. As soon as he started pointing to New England and Tennessee and how they handled their best players, he proved to me that he wants out because each of those guys went to different teams.

The only reason he stated he would be in camp is not about loving the team or anything. It's because if he goes to camp he can then prove to other teams that he can play still. If we promise not to tag next year then he knows he's going to stay in Houston, then why go to camp if he don't have to?

I say promise not to tag him. We need another starter in camp at CB and we don't need him coming in the last week of camp and not know our defense and that screw us up in our chance for the playoffs. If he doesn't play good then he will have to stay in Houston cuz noone will want him. IF he plays well and we make it to the playoffs, winning cures everything and maybe he wants to stay. If not, that's good too - Thanks Dunta for helping us reach the playoffs we wish you well. Just like Dunta mentioned, New England and Tennessee are two playoff teams that don't allow any player to be bigger than the club. We can do the same and hopefully our season is a big one and will help us land a good FA CB.

Marcus
08-08-2009, 06:02 PM
There is no reason to get involved in the details of all this. The bottom line is simple: Dunta says he wants to come back in time to be ready to play the first game. That is all I care about. I just want him to play the first game at the best of his ability.

The real question is, do you trust his judgment on how much work he needs to be ready? If you trust him to come in early enough to be ready -- even if that is next week -- then all is good. If you don't trust him to know how much work he needs to be ready, then the first game could be a bad game for him.

The next question is, do you trust the coaches to know whether he is ready? If the coaches think he isn't ready, they won't play him as if he were.

The last question is, can the rest of the team (including Bennett, Molden, Quin and MccCain) beat the Jets if the coaches decide Dunta isn't ready to play?

Personally, I think Dunta knows how to play and when he is ready. He is a leader for a reason; he loves to play. He also knows that this season is his league-wide interview. I think he will try to come in on time, and I think he will come in early enough to play well. I think he will come in at least a week earlier than John McClain predicted, because that is what is best for him.

If he doesn't come in on time, I trust the Texans coaches to recognize the fact. They will use him sparingly, and in situations where he is likely to succeed.

Finally, I like the Texans' mix of cornerbacks. I think Bennett, Molden and Quin together can help the team beat the Jets. The Titans game is a completely different story, but that will be a tough game anyway. Regardless, I think Dunta will be ready by then. That is over 6 weeks away, so it is possible Reeves will be back by then as well.

Basically, I'm an optimist. I think Dunta is willing to play when it counts and his holdout won't impact the team's win-loss record.

Well, I sure wish I shared that optimism, but I'm sorry, it ain't happening. Dunta said so himself in the article that even though he's "in shape", he'll be behind the curve in learning the new defensive system.

So if we lose a couple of early games, in part because "the best cornerback on the team" didn't know where he was supposed be, or busts a coverage, this argument that "it's just business" gets a little specious, doesn't it?

The Pencil Neck
08-08-2009, 06:06 PM
Spot on. Haven't seen anything at all that supports that oft-expressed view.

To me, it all depends on if we're getting good information about his contract offer. If so, it looks like this to me:

1. In initial talks, RS tells Dunta he won't be tagged because he plans on offering him a sweet deal to stay.
2. RS offers Dunta a big deal which RS assumes will be accepted.
3. Dunta turns deal down because he wants to leave Houston.
4. RS tags Dunta to keep him from leaving.
5. Dunta gets ticked because he was told he wouldn't be tagged and now he can't leave.
6. Dunta offers to end hold out if he won't be tagged in the future because then he'll have to opportunity to go.

None of this has any basis in truth or reality other than this is what it looks like to me looking at it from the outside. And the reason it looks like this to me is:

1. Dunta turned down a deal that is really more than he's worth (IF we have the right numbers about his deal.)
2. Dunta was extremely ticked off about getting tagged.
3. Dunta really wants assurances that he won't get tagged in the future.

So, he's not really interested in a deal that will keep him here. If he was, he would have taken that first deal that was offered.

That's why I think he wants to leave.

Fred
08-08-2009, 06:21 PM
When conceived the franchise tag was thought to be a special designation for a player. In essence, the idea was to say this player is so valuable, that we want extra time to be able to negotiate with them.

In essence, the FT protects the team of a potentially bad contact by giving the player a big one year contract in order to see if they want to give him a bigger deal. While a big one year contract may seem like its good for the player, there is no job security.

Also think about taxes. A $9 mill contract quickly loses about half of its value in taxes. Then remember that many of these players have very little skills outside of football. Can you really retire in your mid 20s or 30s and live into your 70s on about 4.5 mill? Do the math and compare it to your bills and check it out.

Another interesting thing about this discussion is that it helps to reveal other parts about you. Are you a pro labor guy(pro Dunta) or a pro managment person (FO). Do you have a strong opnion one way or the other can reveal alot of intersting things.

That's why this issue is so interesting for me: because this issue goes far beyond DR and the FO but taps into each poster's individual values.

Taxes aren't quite that bad (yet). More like 40%, so a $9.95 million deal nets about $6 million. With that kind of money you can get very secure investments paying 5% a year. So the interest alone would be about $300K a year ($200K after taxes). Let me check my bills - YES! I can live on that. I don't care how sorry someone's other life skills are, to be set for life based on one years income is pretty sweet.

I definitely agree with you that most people's opinion has a lot to do with their individual values and a little with the specific facts in a particular case.

thunderkyss
08-08-2009, 06:22 PM
It all just sounds to me like both sides are concerned about Dunta getting re-injured. The Texans don't want to lose him or give him a long-term deal until he proves he can stay healthy, and Dunta just wants a long-term deal, period.


We do know the Texans offered him a long term deal. It just wasn't big enough for Dunta. IMHO, from reading Dunta's side, it sounds like they weren't willing to agree to pay him $23 million guaranteed.

I can't imagine Dunta turning his nose up at $23 million guaranteed.

Ckw
08-08-2009, 06:30 PM
To me, it all depends on if we're getting good information about his contract offer. If so, it looks like this to me:

1. In initial talks, RS tells Dunta he won't be tagged because he plans on offering him a sweet deal to stay.
2. RS offers Dunta a big deal which RS assumes will be accepted.
3. Dunta turns deal down because he wants to leave Houston.
4. RS tags Dunta to keep him from leaving.
5. Dunta gets ticked because he was told he wouldn't be tagged and now he can't leave.
6. Dunta offers to end hold out if he won't be tagged in the future because then he'll have to opportunity to go.

None of this has any basis in truth or reality other than this is what it looks like to me looking at it from the outside. And the reason it looks like this to me is:

1. Dunta turned down a deal that is really more than he's worth (IF we have the right numbers about his deal.)
2. Dunta was extremely ticked off about getting tagged.
3. Dunta really wants assurances that he won't get tagged in the future.

So, he's not really interested in a deal that will keep him here. If he was, he would have taken that first deal that was offered.

That's why I think he wants to leave.

Excellent post. Rep your way. This is exactly what I have been saying, but you did a much better job breaking it down step by step. At first, the contract could have just been speculation. Now, it has been reported by numerous sources, and I think I remember reading even a guy from ESPN verifying the contract offer or quoting a figure very close to what was first rumored. I really believe it's just wishful thinking for the people that still believe Dunta wants to stay in Houston. IF Rick Smith said any of the things that have been rumored, it is almost a guarantee he said this because he believed the offer to Dunta was so good and so fair there was no way D-Rob would turn it down. What RS didn't realize is that Dunta wasn't going to accept because he is tired of being in Houston.

gary
08-08-2009, 06:50 PM
This whole thing is not getting either side anywhere. Lets get a deal done for this season and worry about next season when it gets here. This is a marry go round already and it's not helping anyone. Fans are becoming less interested and more sick of this on going circus with every day that goes by. If he plays well and wants to come back then fine but if he wants to walk then let him walk. I understand those people who are saying tag him again and do not just let him go if he ends up playing well. You should look at it this way if he does indeed play well to show the other teams in the league what he has left in his tank but really doesn't want to be here and he gets tagged again he might get very angry and not be very into it because he does not want to be here anymore. What's the point? Enough said, is it football time in Houston yet? I don't know about you folks but I know I'm ready. Lets just move on and see how it all plays out because it's way beyond our control lets just leave it all up to the folks with all the power to make something happen and that's Dunte and the FO JMO. GO TEXANS OUR FIRST PLAYOFF BIRTH IN 2009

buddyboy
08-08-2009, 06:51 PM
Two points:

The idea that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston seems to me to fall into the category of "If you say it enough times with enough certainty, almost everyone will eventually buy into it hook, line and sinker".

I'm one of the people who gets the impression that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston anymore, because of this SIMPLE reason.

He doesn't want to get tagged next season.

The question we have to ask ourselves is: Under what scenario would Dunta get tagged a second season in a row?
Scenario a) Dunta does not perform because of nagging injury or just because he isn't all he was cracked up to be.
Result: Texans do not offer him a big, multi-year contract, nor do they use the Franchise Tag for a second year, so that's out.

Scenario b) Dunta plays well and wants to be in Houston.
Result: Dunta wants to play in Houston, and he's played well, so the Texans offer him a deal that would make him a very highly paid CB in the NFL, especially after the uncertaininty about the new CBA is dealt with.

Scenario c) Dunta plays well but doesn't want to be in Houston.
Result: He gets tagged again.

In no other scenario can I imagine that DR gets tagged a second time! So, if he really wants to avoid that second tag, then it's obvious to me that what he's really trying to do is avoid staying in Houston a second longer than he has to.

Maybe my logic is flawed, but if it is, please reason it out to me, because this is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Hottoddie
08-08-2009, 07:14 PM
Okay Dunta, we'll agree not to Franchise you next year if you make the following goals.

1) 11 picks - This is one more pick than anyone has gotten in the regular season in the last 10 years. If you want unreal money, you have to be the very best.
2) 23 PDef - This is how many guaranteed millions you just turned down.
3) 55 tackles - This is how many millions in salary you just turned down.
4) 10 FF - This is the draft position we selected you at.
5) 1 TD - This is the round you were taken in.
6) 6 sacks - This is the number of seasons you've been in the league.
7) 16 GP - This is what we're paying you for.

If you can do all of this, we agree to not Franchise you. However, if you can do all of this, we're going to use the Transition tag on you & retain the right to match any offer you get. Your acceptance of these terms will show us & everyone else how serious you are about remaining a Texan for life.

TimeKiller
08-08-2009, 07:38 PM
After hearing this, if I were Smith I'd say, "Dunta, fly your ass down here and be the FIRST one on field tomorrow. Deal." No tag next year? Surely we'll find out whether Dunta is legitimately worth elite money or not and whether he wants to be a Texan or not. The point of keeping him here at an unreasonable price and/or against his will is....what exactly? It looks like we've got a decent stock of athletes at CB right now - Bennett, Molden, Quin, McCain, Reeves and if none of them develop into starter material while Dunta is here then draft one when he leaves.

Deal. Ease any building tension, see what this D is going to look like, see what DUNTA is going to look like....just time to move forward because hanging around in negotiation limbo isn't helping the team.

edo783
08-08-2009, 07:43 PM
I also think that RS has questionable people skills.

Yeah, I have heard that also. I suspect he is another guy that his ego has trouble getting through the door. Supposedly he is a bit of a standoffish type. Might be better having someone else doing the negotiations and then he just sign off on the deal.

Texan JBZ
08-08-2009, 09:04 PM
Yeah, I have heard that also. I suspect he is another guy that his ego has trouble getting through the door. Supposedly he is a bit of a standoffish type. Might be better having someone else doing the negotiations and then he just sign off on the deal.

Guys, we're looking to blame Rick Smith for essentially what, doing his job? So what if he has an ego? So does Kubes, and Dunta, and McNair, and Jones, and Snyder, and just about any other pro football player I can name outside of Andre Johnson. That doesn't mean he's not any good at doing his job. I sided with Rick Smith on this issue immediately after Dunta went on his media whining fit and turned a business decision into something personal. From that point on, I haven't cared about anything he's had to say. I just can't side with a guy who makes a business decision personal.

Plus, what if the Texans fold and give Dunta what he wants? That's called setting a precedent. Every agent will try to eat the Texans alive on negotitations from that point on. Dunta is only hurting himself and Smith knows it. There's no way the Texans should agree to not franchise him after this season. Doing that could cost the organization at least two high round draft picks if Dunta comes back and has a stellar season. And we would be irrate as fans at Rick Smith for good reason if he allowed that to happen.

gary
08-08-2009, 09:40 PM
So you think Dunta Robinson has a little more leverage in his contract negotiations with the Texans because of the injury situation at cornerback?

Please. The Texans have the power and are using it. But they better be careful.

The Texans aren't desperate to have Robinson end his holdout because Jacques Reeves broke his leg and a couple of other cornerbacks are gimpy. They are desperate to have Robinson end his holdout because Robinson is their best cornerback and most intense defensive player.

It doesn't matter if Robinson is a top-five or top-10 or top-15 cornerback, the Texans' defense is better with him on the field.

Robinson did get more leverage this past week, but more leverage he didn't need. He wants to be on the field with the Texans — “It's killing me not to be there,” he said — but this is how negotiations go. This high-dollar back-and-forth is no longer a negotiation. Robinson has one request: “Agree not to franchise me again next season.”

But general manager Rick Smith is standing at the door to camp wielding a huge rubber stamp with the words “Request Denied” on it.

Robinson's request seems reasonable, considering how unlikely the Texans are to use what could be an $11 million hammer next season. The tag will cost them a measly $10 million this year.

But the Texans have a good reason to deny Robinson's request: They can.

“We're not inclined to agree to that,” Smith said, citing the organization's position against putting such a guarantee in the one-year contract Robinson will soon have to sign.

What the Texans are doing isn't dirty. It's business. If people knew the whole story about the Robinson situation, there would be far fewer negative comments from fans, bloggers and radio sports talk-show hosts about him not being a team player.

Smith, who says Robinson needs to get to camp as soon as possible, even said Robinson is taking unfair shots about being a team player.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6565222.html

gary
08-08-2009, 10:15 PM
Guys, we're looking to blame Rick Smith for essentially what, doing his job? So what if he has an ego? So does Kubes, and Dunta, and McNair, and Jones, and Snyder, and just about any other pro football player I can name outside of Andre Johnson. That doesn't mean he's not any good at doing his job. I sided with Rick Smith on this issue immediately after Dunta went on his media whining fit and turned a business decision into something personal. From that point on, I haven't cared about anything he's had to say. I just can't side with a guy who makes a business decision personal.

Plus, what if the Texans fold and give Dunta what he wants? That's called setting a precedent. Every agent will try to eat the Texans alive on negotitations from that point on. Dunta is only hurting himself and Smith knows it. There's no way the Texans should agree to not franchise him after this season. Doing that could cost the organization at least two high round draft picks if Dunta comes back and has a stellar season. And we would be irrate as fans at Rick Smith for good reason if he allowed that to happen.You don't want the Texans to let him walk without getting anything in return for him so maybe once he is signed they should consider shopping him around. That's the only way I see Houston getting anything back because if he's tagged again he won't like it and we'll be sitting here talking about the same old thing next offseason.

bckey
08-08-2009, 11:56 PM
To me, it all depends on if we're getting good information about his contract offer. If so, it looks like this to me:

1. In initial talks, RS tells Dunta he won't be tagged because he plans on offering him a sweet deal to stay.
2. RS offers Dunta a big deal which RS assumes will be accepted.
3. Dunta turns deal down because he wants to leave Houston.
4. RS tags Dunta to keep him from leaving.
5. Dunta gets ticked because he was told he wouldn't be tagged and now he can't leave.
6. Dunta offers to end hold out if he won't be tagged in the future because then he'll have to opportunity to go.

None of this has any basis in truth or reality other than this is what it looks like to me looking at it from the outside. And the reason it looks like this to me is:

1. Dunta turned down a deal that is really more than he's worth (IF we have the right numbers about his deal.)
2. Dunta was extremely ticked off about getting tagged.
3. Dunta really wants assurances that he won't get tagged in the future.

So, he's not really interested in a deal that will keep him here. If he was, he would have taken that first deal that was offered.

That's why I think he wants to leave.

This is exactly what I think about the whole Dunta saga

GP
08-09-2009, 01:14 AM
Guys, we're looking to blame Rick Smith for essentially what, doing his job? So what if he has an ego? So does Kubes, and Dunta, and McNair, and Jones, and Snyder, and just about any other pro football player I can name outside of Andre Johnson. That doesn't mean he's not any good at doing his job. I sided with Rick Smith on this issue immediately after Dunta went on his media whining fit and turned a business decision into something personal. From that point on, I haven't cared about anything he's had to say. I just can't side with a guy who makes a business decision personal.

Plus, what if the Texans fold and give Dunta what he wants? That's called setting a precedent. Every agent will try to eat the Texans alive on negotitations from that point on. Dunta is only hurting himself and Smith knows it. There's no way the Texans should agree to not franchise him after this season. Doing that could cost the organization at least two high round draft picks if Dunta comes back and has a stellar season. And we would be irrate as fans at Rick Smith for good reason if he allowed that to happen.

So you're saying the job of a GM is to depersonalize the contract negotiations and look at the long-term ramifications of how each current decision might impact future decisions?

Sounds a little too logical to me.

Sounds like a few players are pining for the good old days of Capers & Casserly. Uncle Charlie & The Money Factory.

thunderkyss
08-09-2009, 05:54 AM
To me, it all depends on if we're getting good information about his contract offer. If so, it looks like this to me:

So, he's not really interested in a deal that will keep him here. If he was, he would have taken that first deal that was offered.

That's why I think he wants to leave.

That makes sense, if the contract offered was in fact a sweet deal. Which I don't think it was.

In the interview, Dunta says something to the effect of, "why would they want to franchise me two years in a row, & pay me $22 million, when they didn't want to give me $23 million to begin with." & then the comment about RS saying Dunta wasn't worth the tag.....

Other than Weaver, which was done before RS, I don't think we've overpaid anyone. I don't think RS wants to start now. I understand, emotionally we've all got a lot invested in #23, but if you take a step back, and look at his play....... even if you were to give him the benefit of the doubt, and say he is 100% recovered.. he's not worth top 5 money.

We tag him, to make sure he doesn't leave without getting compensation. We allow him to talk to other teams let other teams tel him what he is worth to them. From what I understand, no other team made an offer worth talking about.

You would think that meant no team thought he was worthy of the picks they would have to give up, plus the money. Maybe these other teams told him, we'll give you the moon, if it weren't for that tag, but it's hard to say. Hard to say if they meant it. They might just be driving the price up on the Texans with no intention of paying him that much.

While I'm not his bestest fan, I agree the guy has skills. I dare say he is a starting corner, but what we should be considering our #2, not our #1. I'm sure someone will offer him stupid money to play.

I just don't think we should match stupid money to keep him here.

imatexan
08-09-2009, 06:21 PM
I do not like how either sides have dealt with the situation, but of course things happen this way.

I still dont understand why a lot of people are calling for him to be traded, he shows(as always) his heart and commitment for the Texans.
The business side of this situation has made it seem that Dunta is not commited but this happends in any profession.He will be back to his normal self(if not better) and playing his heart out on the field this year, which has always been one of my favorite things about going to a Texans game is watching Dunta and how he makes the whole team's mentality different as a whole.

ChampionTexan
08-09-2009, 06:41 PM
That makes sense, if the contract offered was in fact a sweet deal. Which I don't think it was.

In the interview, Dunta says something to the effect of, "why would they want to franchise me two years in a row, & pay me $22 million, when they didn't want to give me $23 million to begin with." & then the comment about RS saying Dunta wasn't worth the tag.....



From the article quoted by the OP:
Robinson, who has not talked publicly about the situation since April, would not say how much the Texans offered him long-term. But he noted that the reported $23 million guarantee is almost what the Texans would be forced to pay him for only two seasons of work if he were franchised next year as well.

TK - You've either seen another quote from Dunta (which I would love to get a link to), or you are interpereting this quote completely differently than I am.

What I interperet is more along the lines of "If I can get almost $23 million by being franchised for two years, why should I sign a LT deal that only guarantees me a little bit more, yet ties me up for 4-5 years?"

Texans_Chick
08-09-2009, 07:04 PM
It seems like removing the franchise tag is a simple thing. It only protects the Texans if he he plays very well this year and would then command a big free agent contract. If he only plays average, they wouldn't want to pay him $12M anyway. I hope Rick Smith isn't just being stubborn and trying to save face, or worse yet delaying the signing just to send a message.

It was also good to hear Dunta doesn't sound as irrational and spiteful as he's been painted here. He knows he needs to be in camp. He needs to consider pulling the trigger too. He and Smith are both being very stubborn.

The problem about agreeing to non-franchise the second year for certain incentives reached is:

1. Then you have set a team precedent that you will do that for much better players.
2. More likely than not, if the player is any good and they meet their no-franchise the second year incentives, they will bolt.

All the players who have had this sort of no-franchise the second year deal have at least one pro-bowl, most more....
Haynesworth, Samuels, Clements bolted.
Briggs ended up signing a long term deal.

Dunta Robinson was statistically the worst CB for the Texans. If they agree to do this for Robinson, then they will have to do it for much better players. Robinson was franchised to buy more time for a long term deal that couldn't be worked out. He wouldn't have been franchised had the Texans had other players that needed to be franchised.

Pantherstang84
08-09-2009, 07:07 PM
The problem about agreeing to non-franchise the second year for certain incentives reached is:

1. Then you have set a team precedent that you will do that for much better players.
2. More likely than not, if the player is any good and they meet their no-franchise the second year incentives, they will bolt.

All the players who have had this sort of no-franchise the second year deal have at least one pro-bowl, most more....
Haynesworth, Samuels, Clements bolted.
Briggs ended up signing a long term deal.

Dunta Robinson was statistically the worst CB for the Texans. If they agree to do this for Robinson, then they will have to do it for much better players. Robinson was franchised to buy more time for a long term deal that couldn't be worked out. He wouldn't have been franchised had the Texans had other players that needed to be franchised.

Spot on.
[/thread]

thunderkyss
08-09-2009, 08:15 PM
From the article quoted by the OP:


TK - You've either seen another quote from Dunta (which I would love to get a link to), or you are interpereting this quote completely differently than I am.

What I interperet is more along the lines of "If I can get almost $23 million by being franchised for two years, why should I sign a LT deal that only guarantees me a little bit more, yet ties me up for 4-5 years?"

Same quote, we're just reading it differently. I'm reading it as I stated earlier, and you're reading it wrong.


Guys look, I've just decided to stay away from these Dunta Robinson threads. Not because I don't like the discussion in a slower than slow offseason, but I think I get a bad rap, for the things I say. Kinda like T.O. I say the truth, and some people are just not ready for the truth.

But if this goes the way the old David Carr threads went.. I'll end up sounding very negative, and detrimental to the team.

I'm open to the fact that I may be wrong about #23.... and I'll have no problem saying so in the future. right now, all I want is what's best for the team.

If that means RS folds to get Dunta into camp so he can lead our backfield, then so be it.

I know I'm breaking some of your hearts, by keeping my perspective to myself.... but I think it's for the best.

disaacks3
08-09-2009, 09:16 PM
Same quote, we're just reading it differently. I'm reading it as I stated earlier, and you're reading it wrong.


Guys look, I've just decided to stay away from these Dunta Robinson threads. Not because I don't like the discussion in a slower than slow offseason, but I think I get a bad rap, for the things I say. Kinda like T.O. I say the truth, and some people are just not ready for the truth.
You know, when you do it to yourself, it just gets funny. :spit:

Texans_Chick
08-10-2009, 12:48 PM
Here's a more detailed discussion of this:


More Dunta Robinson talks, the less sense he makes (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/08/more_dunta_robinson_talks_the.html)

I don't hate Robinson. I just think that he shouldn't be talking about how eager he is to be a Texan, or how he is a team player, etc. Actions speak louder than words. The more he talks, the worse it looks for him.

In the blog post, I talk about previous players who have received the same contractual arrangement that Robinson is seeking, how some people think that teams should never agree to that, and some on DR's value.

hadaad
08-10-2009, 02:13 PM
Then give us the right to match any offer. Oh that right, you can't do that because the union would be mad.

He is only hurting himself right now.

That would be the Transition tag.

Runner
08-10-2009, 02:46 PM
Well, when I'm wrong I like to be wrong in a spectacular fashion.

I now believe Dunta probably did turn down some form of "Gamble-like" money. I don't know about terms, but $20M+ guaranteed wouldn't surprise me. To review other positions based on this assumption:

Should he have taken the long term deal - yes!

Is he a bad person - no!

Is he over-evaluating his value - probably. I don't know what he could get as a free agent.

Is he a bad cornerback - no!

Would his presence this year help the team on the field - yes!

Lockerroom cancer or defensive leader - defensive leader.

Should the Texans cut him - no.

Do I still see fault in Rick Smith - yes.

disaacks3
08-10-2009, 03:01 PM
Well, when I'm wrong I like to be wrong in a spectacular fashion.

I now believe Dunta probably did turn down some form of "Gamble-like" money. I don't know about terms, but $20M+ guaranteed wouldn't surprise me. To review other positions based on this assumption:

Should he have taken the long term deal - yes!

Is he a bad person - no!

Is he over-evaluating his value - probably. I don't know what he could get as a free agent.

Is he a bad cornerback - no!

Would his presence this year help the team on the field - yes!

Lockerroom cancer or defensive leader - defensive leader.

Should the Texans cut him - no.

Do I still see fault in Rick Smith - yes. Hard to argue any of this.

I'm still wondering if this is all posturing or if he really does / Does NOT want to be part of the Texans for the long-term. He says he does, but there's really no way to tell at this point. I still find it to be very non-coincidental that he changed agents right before all of this went down.

Texans_Chick
08-10-2009, 03:06 PM
Well, when I'm wrong I like to be wrong in a spectacular fashion.

I now believe Dunta probably did turn down some form of "Gamble-like" money. I don't know about terms, but $20M+ guaranteed wouldn't surprise me. To review other positions based on this assumption:

Should he have taken the long term deal - yes!

Is he a bad person - no!

Is he over-evaluating his value - probably. I don't know what he could get as a free agent.

Is he a bad cornerback - no!

Would his presence this year help the team on the field - yes!

Lockerroom cancer or defensive leader - defensive leader.

Should the Texans cut him - no.

Do I still see fault in Rick Smith - yes.

My answers to your questions:

Should he have taken the long term deal - probably, unless there was something really weird in it

Is he a bad person - no!

Is he over-evaluating his value - likely

Is he a bad cornerback - don't know. I don't even think he knows how he could play on the field. We do know he is more likely than some to reinjure that leg because a previous hamstring injury is a risk factor for future injuries

Would his presence this year help the team on the field - don't know. Probably as a body if he stays healthy. Don't know if he would be better than a young player who could develop. Don't know what legs he has left--he's talking a big game but who knows.

Lockerroom cancer or defensive leader - can he be both? I don't think he has good judgment, and I'm sure he is grumpy about how he was treated. He's not acting like a leader. Julius Peppers was a captain last year, had a dispute with the team, but then eventually signed the tender and got to camp timely.

Should the Texans cut him - no. They franchised him so that they could get some value from him in some form.

Do I still see fault in Rick Smith - Likely. Smoke and fire and all that. How much fault is hard to assess with what we know.

steelbtexan
08-10-2009, 03:17 PM
What fault do you guys see with Rick Smith in these negociations?

He's just making sure the Texans get some value for Dunta when he leaves.

Malloy
08-10-2009, 03:22 PM
What fault do you guys see with Rick Smith in these negociations?

He's just making sure the Texans get some value for Dunta when he leaves.

True, I have a hard time blaming RS for managing this team. Of course there could be some horrible decisions that he'd made, but since I have no knowledge of these he's innocent until proven otherwise.

One thing is certain, I'll much rather have a GM that screws up once in a while, than a GM that continously throws big money after suspect talent.

Runner
08-10-2009, 03:33 PM
True, I have a hard time blaming RS for managing this team. Of course there could be some horrible decisions that he'd made, but since I have no knowledge of these he's innocent until proven otherwise.

One thing is certain, I'll much rather have a GM that screws up once in a while, than a GM that continously throws big money after suspect talent.


"Not signing" players protects the team from over overpaying suspect talent as has been stated. However, the GM is also responsible for locking up good talent for the long term - "not signing" players doesn't help there. I believe that his personality and nogotiating style may hinder some negotiations.

hadaad
08-10-2009, 03:46 PM
I dunno. I don't think there are many teams out there who haven't faced this problem before. I should say "yet." This is a sticking point of the CBA and both sides are working through it. I'm not concerned. I think he'll be there when the regular season comes around, one way or the other.

I don't really care if Dunta wants to be here or not. I think he'll show up.

GP
08-10-2009, 04:02 PM
Perhaps, as I said earlier, this is a quiet commentary by Texans management that they don't think Dunta is "good talent for the long term." They view him as being OUR player this year, with a chance to review his skills and then proceed in one of two directions: Re-sign him for a long-term deal, or tag him again and seek trade value. The t-e-a-m holds the cards. Not Dunta; not even if Dunta runs his mouth and fires all of his guns at once.

I think Dunta is a very high-octane, emotionally-driven guy. It shows on the field, because he plays with a lot of heart and is a leader of others. You have to be wired pretty hot in order to be his size, play defense, and tackle the way he does.

He doesn't mind speaking his mind, as seen in the David Carr situation. And as we're seeing with his own situation.

I've hear that Bill Belichick is a pretty hard person to deal with. I bet there's few Patriots fans who have an argument with how abrasive and unbending he has been with players. When you're heading in the right direction, it's hard to argue against it.

I personally think we're heading in the right direction.

Of course, THAT opens a whole new topic that's got about 40 pages on it already.

So basically, the Dunta discussion around here--for the most part--does center upon whether Rick Smith and the rest of the FO are "good," "questionable," or "sketchy" in our eyes.

Mr teX
08-10-2009, 04:32 PM
"Not signing" players protects the team from over overpaying suspect talent as has been stated. However, the GM is also responsible for locking up good talent for the long term - "not signing" players doesn't help there. I believe that his personality and nogotiating style may hinder some negotiations.

That's what everyone is missing here. It strategically benefits none of the parties involved to play hardball. As i said in another thread, forcing dunta back just b/c "you can" doesn't preclude him from coming back and being a disruption in the locker room all season long so why even chance that? Especially if it's playoffs or bust this year.

The more & more i look at this the more i think it's the texans FO that's not handling it the right way. Hell if they don't think he's worth more than what they're willing to give him, just let him go; dont take the chance of this guy destroying what could be a banner year for the franchise.

GP
08-10-2009, 04:43 PM
That's what everyone is missing here. It strategically benefits none of the parties involved to play hardball. As i said in another thread, forcing dunta back just b/c "you can" doesn't preclude him from coming back and being a disruption in the locker room all season long so why even chance that? Especially if it's playoffs or bust this year.

The more & more i look at this the more i think it's the texans FO that's not handling it the right way. Hell if they don't think he's worth more than what they're willing to give him, just let him go; dont take the chance of this guy destroying what could be a banner year for the franchise.

You might be right, but I think this team has outgrown Dunta.

As much as the guy was a leader, he's begun to believe his own hype a little too much. He feels slighted, and he thinks he can pull the same stunt on Rick Smith that he pulled on David Carr.

The only problem is that I think McNair is solidly behind Smith & Kubiak. I really think McNair feels he's got his dynasty staff lined up, at least the two big pieces: Smith (GM) and Kubiak (HC).

And Dunta is left on the outside, thinking he can still influence things when that era is so over and done with. It's a new day, and I think Dunta is on the outer edges of it. On the outside looking in, so to speak.

I think he's actually got enough salt in him to hold out the whole year. I wouldn't put it past him. And Smith isn't going to cave on this situation. It's a staring contest, and neither will blink.

spurstexanstros
08-10-2009, 05:08 PM
My answers to your questions:

Should he have taken the long term deal - probably, unless there was something really weird in it

Is he a bad person - no!

Is he over-evaluating his value - likely

Is he a bad cornerback - don't know. I don't even think he knows how he could play on the field. We do know he is more likely than some to reinjure that leg because a previous hamstring injury is a risk factor for future injuries

Would his presence this year help the team on the field - don't know. Probably as a body if he stays healthy. Don't know if he would be better than a young player who could develop. Don't know what legs he has left--he's talking a big game but who knows.

Lockerroom cancer or defensive leader - can he be both? I don't think he has good judgment, and I'm sure he is grumpy about how he was treated. He's not acting like a leader. Julius Peppers was a captain last year, had a dispute with the team, but then eventually signed the tender and got to camp timely.

Should the Texans cut him - no. They franchised him so that they could get some value from him in some form.

Do I still see fault in Rick Smith - Likely. Smoke and fire and all that. How much fault is hard to assess with what we know.

I agree 100%...you should write a blog or something.

I just want this deal done...we are a better team with him...the Texans need to gain momentum and that starts in TC. I just want it over with and the season to start...hopefully with #23 on the field.

Mr teX
08-10-2009, 05:11 PM
You might be right, but I think this team has outgrown Dunta.

As much as the guy was a leader, he's begun to believe his own hype a little too much. He feels slighted, and he thinks he can pull the same stunt on Rick Smith that he pulled on David Carr.

The only problem is that I think McNair is solidly behind Smith & Kubiak. I really think McNair feels he's got his dynasty staff lined up, at least the two big pieces: Smith (GM) and Kubiak (HC).

And Dunta is left on the outside, thinking he can still influence things when that era is so over and done with. It's a new day, and I think Dunta is on the outer edges of it. On the outside looking in, so to speak.

I think he's actually got enough salt in him to hold out the whole year. I wouldn't put it past him. And Smith isn't going to cave on this situation. It's a staring contest, and neither will blink.

McNair wants nothing to do with this in my opinion b/c he's always been a hands off owner unlike that mannequin upstate. I think this is mostly Smith's call & Kubiak is backing him up.......for now. But as this crap runs closer to the season, i think kubes is going to get more vocal about getting Dunta in camp b/c i don't think he's quite ready to go full bore with Molden, McCain or any of the other guys.

Again for all the "what he's worth" & "declining" talk, those years, our whole team was terrible, especially defense b/c there wasn't any pass rush to speak of. Considering what he showed at 85% last year & the hopeful idea that our pass rush will be the best he's played with since his rookie year (which was also his best year) i think he's worth a gamble and i think that if both sides display a little bit of trust in each other (promise him no franchise tag in exchange for him giving the FO the option to match) i think in the end it could work out.

badboy
08-10-2009, 05:20 PM
McNair wants nothing to do with this in my opinion b/c he's always been a hands off owner unlike that mannequin upstate. I think this is mostly Smith's call & Kubiak is backing him up.......for now. But as this crap runs closer to the season, i think kubes is going to get more vocal about getting Dunta in camp b/c i don't think he's quite ready to go full bore with Molden, McCain or any of the other guys.

Again for all the "what he's worth" & "declining" talk, those years, our whole team was terrible, especially defense b/c there wasn't any pass rush to speak of. Considering what he showed at 85% last year & the hopeful idea that our pass rush will be the best he's played with since his rookie year (which was also his best year) i think he's worth a gamble and i think that if both sides display a little bit of trust in each other (promise him no franchise tag in exchange for him giving the FO the option to match) i think in the end it could work out.I think Kubes is quite willing to wait a couple more weeks to see how his CB roster shakes out.

barrett
08-10-2009, 05:24 PM
i'm curious what people would be saying right now if Smith had managed to sign Robinson to top 5 money, Ryans to top 2 money and Daniels to top 2 money. I wonder where that would leave us cap wise. (I know it's impossible to know). But I am curious how people expected this to be handled.

I think this team has massive question marks ahead because we appear to have many up and coming players as well as two valid "superstars". All those guys have to get payed. It's unlikely that we will be able to pay them all.

One of my concerns is that it appears that we tried to sign all three guys. I feel like the front office feels like we're at a point where it would be worth it to over pay some of these guys just to solidify some of the new found leadership that we have.

Smith has a very VERY big challenge ahead of him. We are one of the youngest teams in the league. We had a very succesful draft a few years ago and all those guys are going to be due a payday at or around the same time. We've been fairly successful in FA with guys like Walter, Davis Meyers etc.. Guys like Walter will have earned a payday.

Pitts, Breisel, Slaton, Schaub, Walter, Jones, DelJuan, MARIO, RYANS...

all have paydays coming in their future.

on top of that Smith has the added uncertainty of the CBA looming. All the front offices have a big challenge ahead but I think our team is in a very peculiar situation because of the amount of young talent that potentially could earn a payday.

We're going to loose good players. As Texans, this is totally new for us. I would hope that we follow in the footsteps of teams like the Steelers and Patriots who traditionally dont pay everybody and have constant turn over but have enough consistency in their front office scouting as well as in the coaching staff that they are able to continue to draft and sign FA's that are a good value that allow them to continue to produce winning football and still lock in a 100 million dollar contract here and there.

I would expect this front office to pay out handsomely for Andre Johnson, Mario Williams, Matt Schaub and (probably) Demeco Ryans. I would not expect them to pay out the kind of deals that some of these guys are going to ask for because it's not smart to do so.

I expect them to offer incentive based contracts and frequently be prepared for high turnover.

Everything suggests that they are going about this the right way. As scary as it is for us, it would appear that we are following in the footsteps of some great, great organizations.


Go Texans.

Malloy
08-10-2009, 05:30 PM
"Not signing" players protects the team from over overpaying suspect talent as has been stated. However, the GM is also responsible for locking up good talent for the long term - "not signing" players doesn't help there. I believe that his personality and nogotiating style may hinder some negotiations.

Signing players of suspect talent might hurt the team in the long run too, cap-wise.

Hmmm, personally I'll rather see the occational player leave than seeing the team dishing out alot of $ on maintaining on more than just the absolute top players.

Im at the point where Im just trying to spin this into a win-win in my own head. If we sign DR then cool, more skill in our secondary. If we dont then good, we'll have 10 more mil to throw at upcoming contracts and free agents. :)

Hervoyel
08-10-2009, 06:14 PM
i'm curious what people would be saying right now if Smith had managed to sign Robinson to top 5 money, Ryans to top 2 money and Daniels to top 2 money. I wonder where that would leave us cap wise. (I know it's impossible to know). But I am curious how people expected this to be handled.

.....

I expect Dunta Robinson to be on another team next season. I really believed that his injury would dictate how he was handled this off-season and thought he'd either get an offer and sign or be franchised. His contract negotiations have been just as screwy as I thought they'd be.

I expect the first one of the two (Ryans/Daniels) to demonstrate that they're having a hell of a year to get signed. the other will follow (I think it will be Daniels, Ryans play will get him a contract first).

I don't think that Daniels will get the kind of money he'd like to be paid. Not sure how that will end but he's a good player and we can find good players regularly now so he's not going to be paid like he's a great player. I think Ryans might be a great player and I think he'll show it again this year with better support around him and a better system. I expect Mario and Ryans to blow up, Cushing to play very well, and Akoye to finally turn the corner. Kind of off-topic but there it is. That's what I expect and that's how I think it will result in contracts.

Dunta wasn't absolutely a good cornerback before he got hurt so he's just a mystery wrapped inside an enigma right now. They're going to watch him play and decide whether they should pay. Mark my words on this, Dunta will be welcome to shop himself following this season. Not sure how that will turn out but I expect it to happen.

edo783
08-10-2009, 06:22 PM
Im at the point where Im just trying to spin this into a win-win in my own head. If we sign DR then cool, more skill in our secondary. If we dont then good, we'll have 10 more mil to throw at upcoming contracts and free agents. :)

That's pretty much how I feel also, just as long as we get him into camp for the last 2 weeks of TC so that he can get up to speed and we don't waste a couple or 3 weeks of the season getting there or we are in essence paying even more for him than the ten mill.

Polo
08-10-2009, 07:08 PM
Something that I think about with these player contracts is the fact that in a few years their contract won't seem as big if that makes any sense....

With rookies coming in and making as much as they do and FA contracts constantly increasing I think that a big contract now won't seem as big in a few years...

Texans_Chick
08-10-2009, 07:22 PM
Something that I think about with these player contracts is the fact that in a few years their contract won't seem as big if that makes any sense....

With rookies coming in and making as much as they do and FA contracts constantly increasing I think that a big contract now won't seem as big in a few years...

We don't know what contracts will look like in the upcoming years. I think they will be up, but perhaps they will be down for certain types of players. The labor situation is as uncertain as it ever has been which makes contracts very hard to work out right now.

It is a bad enough situation when it is labor v. teams. But when the players all have different issues (with agents in the mix) and teams have very differing views of splitting up revenues, it is likely going to be a big freaking mess. The NFL was all about making the league strong and competitive as a whole perhaps at the expense of profits of the big market teams. Whether that benevolent point of view will continue in the age of mega stadiums with huge debt loads is something to be seen.

GP
08-10-2009, 07:27 PM
We don't know what contracts will look like in the upcoming years. I think they will be up, but perhaps they will be down for certain types of players. The labor situation is as uncertain as it ever has been which makes contracts very hard to work out right now.

It is a bad enough situation when it is labor v. teams. But when the players all have different issues (with agents in the mix) and teams have very differing views of splitting up revenues, it is likely going to be a big freaking mess. The NFL was all about making the league strong and competitive as a whole perhaps at the expense of profits of the big market teams. Whether that benevolent point of view will continue in the age of mega stadiums with huge debt loads is something to be seen.

I would say that the Jerry Jones' of the NFL ownership are putting an end to the Ralph Wilsons of the NFL. The writing has been on the wall for the past few years, IMO.

I think the day of the small-market NFL team is at an end, except for Green Bay which has its own unusual niche amongst its nation-wide following.

Marcus
08-10-2009, 07:55 PM
I just don't understand how one could blame Smith or the FO in this situation if you believe that the player is overvaluing and asking for more money than he's worth. How can you have it both ways here?

This just smells like another one of those "players are sacred and can do no wrong and the FO can do no right" blame games.

Runner
08-10-2009, 08:57 PM
I just don't understand how one could blame Smith or the FO in this situation if you believe that the player is overvaluing and asking for more money than he's worth. How can you have it both ways here?

This just smells like another one of those "players are sacred and can do no wrong and the FO can do no right" blame games.

There is more than one player having trouble negotiating with Smith. Not understanding how BOTH sides of a negotiation can share the blame when things aren't working out "just smells like another one of those "FO is sacred and can do no wrong and the players can do no right" blame games."

Marcus
08-11-2009, 02:24 PM
There is more than one player having trouble negotiating with Smith. Not understanding how BOTH sides of a negotiation can share the blame when things aren't working out "just smells like another one of those "FO is sacred and can do no wrong and the players can do no right" blame games."

Well, if Charlie Casserly were still here, Dunta would be in camp right now, with a big shit-eatin grin on his face.

You see what's wrong with that picture?

I kinda understand if Rick Smith is being a little overly cautious right now. He inherited a really bad football team, and what's worse, he inherited a really bad football team in salary-cap hell, with dead money that took him 3 years to get out from underneath of.

So, if he's keeping that in mind when negotiating future contracts with players, well, I can't say as I blame him.

Coonass Texan
08-11-2009, 04:22 PM
This conflict seems to have gotten to the point of "No-Return". The Texans should agree not to franchise him next year and trade him for something by trade deadline. If he is having a "Pro-Bowl" type season by the trade deadline, well we can keep him if no offers stick out there.

Don't get me wrong, I like Dunta, but if he is disgruntled........we may be spending too much time trying to salvage something that can't be fixed. He's under contract this year and we need to get him on the field asap for this year's team.......

For now Rick.......Get Owen and Demeco locked up!

spurstexanstros
08-11-2009, 04:28 PM
Hmmmmmm is it me or is the above posters SN and sign slightly offensive.

GP
08-11-2009, 06:04 PM
Well, if Charlie Casserly were still here, Dunta would be in camp right now, with a big shit-eatin grin on his face.

You see what's wrong with that picture?

I kinda understand if Rick Smith is being a little overly cautious right now. He inherited a really bad football team, and what's worse, he inherited a really bad football team in salary-cap hell, with dead money that took him 3 years to get out from underneath of.

So, if he's keeping that in mind when negotiating future contracts with players, well, I can't say as I blame him.

Egg-zackly.

Polo
08-11-2009, 06:45 PM
Well, if Charlie Casserly were still here, Dunta would be in camp right now, with a big shit-eatin grin on his face.

You see what's wrong with that picture?

I kinda understand if Rick Smith is being a little overly cautious right now. He inherited a really bad football team, and what's worse, he inherited a really bad football team in salary-cap hell, with dead money that took him 3 years to get out from underneath of.

So, if he's keeping that in mind when negotiating future contracts with players, well, I can't say as I blame him.

The contract part of it has been over with for a while...

My minor gripe with Rick Smith is the fact that he won't budge as far as agreeing not to franchise him next year...

Forget the money...All he has to do is agree not to franchise him next year...

I'm not understanding why he won't atleast meet Dunta to that point....

awtysst
08-11-2009, 08:37 PM
Hmmmmmm is it me or is the above posters SN and sign slightly offensive.

It did not offend me. I actually had to look it up since I had not heard that term before.

Dr2bKay
08-11-2009, 09:08 PM
It did not offend me. I actually had to look it up since I had not heard that term before.

edited...

Carry on...

The Pencil Neck
08-11-2009, 09:21 PM
Did you really??? Not really surprised though....:cool:

The coon caricature is one of the most insulting of all anti-Black caricatures. The name itself, an abbreviation of raccoon, is dehumanizing. As with Sambo, the coon was portrayed as a lazy, easily frightened, chronically idle, inarticulate, buffoon.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon%20ass%20nigga

Carry on...


On the other hand, "coon ass" is used by Texans to refer to people from Louisiana regardless of race. So, this guy might not mean anything racial in his name; he may be referring to his place of birth.

Dr2bKay
08-11-2009, 09:46 PM
On the other hand, "coon ass" is used by Texans to refer to people from Louisiana regardless of race. So, this guy might not mean anything racial in his name; he may be referring to his place of birth.

Thanks...I am not a Texan or from Louisiana. Hopefully, the OP is referring to his place of birth.

barrett
08-11-2009, 10:23 PM
Forget the money...All he has to do is agree not to franchise him next year...

I'm not understanding why he won't atleast meet Dunta to that point....

There have been numerous posts regarding setting a precedent for future negotiations and that would be the main reason most likely.

ChampionTexan
08-11-2009, 10:29 PM
The contract part of it has been over with for a while...

My minor gripe with Rick Smith is the fact that he won't budge as far as agreeing not to franchise him next year...

Forget the money...All he has to do is agree not to franchise him next year...

I'm not understanding why he won't atleast meet Dunta to that point....

Referring back to TC's blog in the Chron, given all the Pro-Bowl level players who've signed franchise tenders with no agreement not to re-franchise, what makes you believe the Texans should agree to his request/demand? What makes Dunta worth doing this for, when players like Peppers, Asomugha, and Lance Briggs haven't needed (or at least haven't gotten) it?

The Pencil Neck
08-11-2009, 10:50 PM
Thanks...I am not a Texan or from Louisiana. Hopefully, the OP is referring to his place of birth.

Unfortunately, I was born in Louisiana.

TEXANRED
08-11-2009, 11:37 PM
Thanks...I am not a Texan or from Louisiana. Hopefully, the OP is referring to his place of birth.

Coonass, Swamp runner, ect....pretty much anyone from south LA.

Kinda like if your from East Texas your a truck driven Hillbilly Redneck.

Its all in fun.

TEXANRED
08-11-2009, 11:38 PM
Unfortunately, I was born in Louisiana.

and now you live in Dallas. Your battin an O'fer.

Specnatz
08-11-2009, 11:40 PM
Coonass is anyone from La who is not a true Cajun ... I was born in Luling La but I am not a Cajun.

The Pencil Neck
08-12-2009, 12:15 AM
and now you live in Dallas. Your battin an O'fer.

I lived in Houston from 3 until 26. It's my hometown. I've lived in 13 different places in the intervening 21 years.

I'll get back home some day.

TEXANRED
08-12-2009, 12:23 AM
I lived in Houston from 3 until 26. It's my hometown. I've lived in 13 different places in the intervening 21 years.

I'll get back home some day.

Well hurry up and get back. :thisbig:

painekiller
08-12-2009, 12:29 AM
The contract part of it has been over with for a while...

My minor gripe with Rick Smith is the fact that he won't budge as far as agreeing not to franchise him next year...

Forget the money...All he has to do is agree not to franchise him next year...

I'm not understanding why he won't atleast meet Dunta to that point....

So you want to let one of your better players leave with no compensation for the team? Give Dunta the freedom and he is gone and we have nothing to show for it.

Personally if he does not come in when two-a-days are over, then I am giving his agent permission to find a trade. And I think Dunta will be shocked when teams are not lining up to pay him $10M this season. Especially as we get closer to real games.

Specnatz
08-12-2009, 12:54 AM
Unfortunately, I was born in Louisiana.

and now you live in Dallas. Your battin an O'fer.

I lived in Houston from 3 until 26. It's my hometown. I've lived in 13 different places in the intervening 21 years.

I'll get back home some day.

Well hurry up and get back. :thisbig:

:spit:

funny shit.

JimC
08-12-2009, 01:04 AM
This team can't afford to lose Ryans, Daniels and Robinson, yet all three are unhappy with their contract situations. The team can afford to lose one of them if he is unreasonable, perhaps two if they get lucky enough in the draft (i. e. if Casey is good enough to be a Pro Bowl TE), but you can't replace many of your best players at the same time. Because three of our best players are unhappy at the same time, I've had my doubts about Rick Smith's ability to put together a great team long-term.

The more I think about it, however, the more Smith's behavior makes sense.

Ryans is under contract. He must play this year for less than $500,000. That means he is seriously underpaid, but that doesn't mean that the Texans need throw away his contractual obligation in exchange for nothing and give him $6 million this year and each of the next five or six years. If a 5 year $35 million contract is fair (I'm just making up numbers) then a 6 year $35.5 contract would also be fair since he is already committed to another year at less than half a million. If he turned that down, then it makes perfect sense to get him for another year for half a million, then give him what he wants when you don't have another option.

Daniels is in a similar situation. He was a restricted free agent, so they can get him for less than $2.8 million this year. He has no choice. They should have offered him a contract that pays him like a Pro Bowl TE, but takes into account that they can get him for another year at $2.8 million. If he refuses that, they should get him for another year cheap, then offer him what he wants after they run out of other options.

In other words, contracts are about business. The players want the best deals they can get, but the teams also want the best deals they can get. Why pay a player $6 million for this year when you know you can get him for under $3 million?

Dunta is a different situation. He wanted more than they wanted to pay, so they franchised him. Franchising a player is very expensive, generally more expensive than the average yearly salary for the player. Franchishing a player makes sense in only two cases: the player is one of the top All Pro players at his position and is likely to cost that much anyway; or you really need the player for just one more year so the extra year of time you buy is worth the extra cost of the franchise tag.

With Dunta, I think Smith just wants him one more year to give his other corners a chance to develop. It would be nice to have Dunta long-term, but only if the value and cost are proportional and the cost fits into the cap. I think what Dunta wants is out of proportion with his worth, so Smith is spending extra money to buy one more year of development time.

With that said, it is possible that Smith will want to use the franchise tag on Ryans in the near future as part of his negotiation for a long-term contract. There is no way he will want to encourage Ryans to hold out for a promise not to use the tag again, so he can't give in to Dunta's demand for that same promise. You never want to set a precedent that encourages players to hold out.

In other words, I think all of Smith's moves so far make sense. They will continue to make sense as long as Smith does whatever allows him to keep all of the players he wants at the lowest possible cost. Keeping your best players is only half of his job; the other half is fitting the best possible combination of players under the salary cap.

In modern professional sports, the keys to building a good team are good drafting, good coaching, and good financial management. As long as the Texans' moves seem to be focused in these areas, I'm going to give Smith the benefit of the doubt.

awtysst
08-12-2009, 01:35 AM
edited...

Carry on...

Yeah I am from Texas, but it was not a term I was familiar with.

I went to Wikipedia to find out what it meant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

just out of curiosity, what did you mean by
Did you really??? Not really surprised though....

GP
08-12-2009, 02:12 AM
I was of the understanding that a "Coon Ass" was the offspring of mixed races, resulting in a Louisiana person who had neither a white, nor black skin tone, but rather a gray'ish or blended skin tone.

And that in some circles, it was indeed used as a slur to demean someone of mixed heritage. But within other friendlier circles, it was used amongst peers as a label of pride and uniqueness due to their parents' inter-racial relationship.

NitroGSXR
08-12-2009, 02:36 AM
I don't know what exactly a "coonass" is but I do know that it can't mean to be a good word or thing. I didn't like typing it much just now. I got the heebie-willies.

Malloy
08-12-2009, 04:02 AM
Actually the use of the word 'Coon ass' is derogative against both 'race' and 'ethnicity' alike. As mentioned before, it is used to connect a certain group of people to certain attributes so as to dehumanize them.

I was of the understanding that a "Coon Ass" was the offspring of mixed races, resulting in a Louisiana person who had neither a white, nor black skin tone, but rather a gray'ish or blended skin tone.

And that in some circles, it was indeed used as a slur to demean someone of mixed heritage. But within other friendlier circles, it was used amongst peers as a label of pride and uniqueness due to their parents' inter-racial relationship.

This is a case of what is called Orientalism. How an ethnic group embraces others perception of self, making it part of their own identity. Coon-ass, N-worders are examples of this. Actually, post-colonial nationalist India is pretty much based on how India was seen by Great Britan during to colonial period, embraced and institutionalized.

bckey
08-12-2009, 06:59 AM
I think there is way too much being made out of the term coonass. It isn't anything close to using the n word. It has always meant the same thing as cajun to me. People are easily offended nowadays in the era of political correctness.

GNTLEWOLF
08-12-2009, 07:03 AM
On the other hand, "coon ass" is used by Texans to refer to people from Louisiana regardless of race. So, this guy might not mean anything racial in his name; he may be referring to his place of birth.

I have several friends from South Louisiana. Many happen to be caucasian and they all refer to themselves as "Coon ass". It is not meant to be racial or offensive in any way.

Lucky
08-12-2009, 07:41 AM
I have several friends from South Louisiana. Many happen to be caucasian and they all refer to themselves as "Coon ass". It is not meant to be racial or offensive in any way.
That's correct. This is a term than Cajuns call themselves amongst themselves. "Coon", however, is a racial derogatory term.

Having settled that tangential foray, let's get back to hating on Dunta.

Runner
08-12-2009, 08:22 AM
Having settled that tangential foray, let's get back to hating on Dunta.

I don't think Dunta should get his hair cut until this thing is settled.

Malloy
08-12-2009, 10:07 AM
I don't think Dunta should get his hair cut until this thing is settled.

Damn, you made me spill my coffee :)

spurstexanstros
08-12-2009, 10:10 AM
On the other hand, "coon ass" is used by Texans to refer to people from Louisiana regardless of race. So, this guy might not mean anything racial in his name; he may be referring to his place of birth.

Coonass, Swamp runner, ect....pretty much anyone from south LA.

Kinda like if your from East Texas your a truck driven Hillbilly Redneck.

Its all in fun.

Coonass is anyone from La who is not a true Cajun ... I was born in Luling La but I am not a Cajun.

Ok, I seee I just wasnt familiar with the term used in that way. A regional thing within Texas.(SE)

Polo
08-12-2009, 10:29 AM
Referring back to TC's blog in the Chron, given all the Pro-Bowl level players who've signed franchise tenders with no agreement not to re-franchise, what makes you believe the Texans should agree to his request/demand? What makes Dunta worth doing this for, when players like Peppers, Asomugha, and Lance Briggs haven't needed (or at least haven't gotten) it?

I really don't care what other teams have done or what other players have gotten when it comes to my team being as good as it can be. I do not follow other teams or players as closely as the hometown variety, so I really have no idea what those guys asked for and didn't get. Maybe the guys you named didn't request to not be franchised twice.

That aside, If Rick Smith (or whoever) doesn't believe Dunta is worth the hype, then franchising him two yrs in a row shouldn't even really be in the equation. You offer a guy a contract that would pay him as much in three years then turn around and pay it to him in two?

I think that something else is not right with your comparison of Dunta to those other players. Those other players were franchised because they wouldmore than likely get big money on the FA market. If Dunta is not worth what he's asking for, then why not just let the guy walk or atleast test the waters?

If we are going to talk about future precedents, franchising B level @ best players is one I want to avoid.

Polo
08-12-2009, 10:34 AM
So you want to let one of your better players leave with no compensation for the team? Give Dunta the freedom and he is gone and we have nothing to show for it.


That's why you make him reach certain incentives.

Then if he reaches those incentives you atleast got a hell of a year out of him.

Two teams that have consitently fielded good to great teams have done this and had their players walk "with no compensation".

But to me that doesn't even make sense because you can only franchise him twice anyways. Eventually he'll walk "with no compensation" anyways.

HOU-TEX
08-12-2009, 10:38 AM
I really don't care what other teams have done or what other players have gotten when it comes to my team being as good as it can be. I do not follow other teams or players as closely as the hometown variety, so I really have no idea what those guys asked for and didn't get. Maybe the guys you named didn't request to not be franchised twice.

That aside, If Rick Smith (or whoever) doesn't believe Dunta is worth the hype, then franchising him two yrs in a row shouldn't even really be in the equation. You offer a guy a contract that would pay him as much in three years then turn around and pay it to him in two?

I think that something else is not right with your comparison of Dunta to those other players. Those other players were franchised because they wouldmore than likely get big money on the FA market. If Dunta is not worth what he's asking for, then why not just let the guy walk or atleast test the waters?

If we are going to talk about future precedents, franchising B level @ best players is one I want to avoid.

Agreeing to not tag him again would also leave the Texans without compensation. We could tag him, then trade him for a draft pick. The Patriots tagged Cassel and ended up trading him and Vrabel for a 2. Does anybody honestly think the Pats were going to pay him what they tagged him for? They knew what they were doing.

Dunta will be playing for the Texans this season and that's really all that matters to me right now.

Sorry for the interruption, carry on. :)

ChampionTexan
08-12-2009, 10:49 AM
I really don't care what other teams have done or what other players have gotten when it comes to my team being as good as it can be. I do not follow other teams or players as closely as the hometown variety, so I really have no idea what those guys asked for and didn't get. Maybe the guys you named didn't request to not be franchised twice.

That aside, If Rick Smith (or whoever) doesn't believe Dunta is worth the hype, then franchising him two yrs in a row shouldn't even really be in the equation. You offer a guy a contract that would pay him as much in three years then turn around and pay it to him in two?

I think that something else is not right with your comparison of Dunta to those other players. Those other players were franchised because they wouldmore than likely get big money on the FA market. If Dunta is not worth what he's asking for, then why not just let the guy walk or atleast test the waters?

If we are going to talk about future precedents, franchising B level @ best players is one I want to avoid.

Compensation - monetary and otherwise is driven by the market - meaning just like Dunta looks to the contracts of other recently signed CB's, teams in the league look to see how other teams have handled similar situations. The fact that you really don't care is kind of irrelevent - it's what goes on league-wide.

Let me pose the same question to you again as simply as I know how.

Why does Dunta deserve to get the contractual agreement not to be re-franchised?

Polo
08-12-2009, 11:47 AM
Compensation - monetary and otherwise is driven by the market - meaning just like Dunta looks to the contracts of other recently signed CB's, teams in the league look to see how other teams have handled similar situations. The fact that you really don't care is kind of irrelevent - it's what goes on league-wide.

Let me pose the same question to you again as simply as I know how.

Why does Dunta deserve to get the contractual agreement not to be re-franchised?

I see a lot of people turning this into a Dunta vs. the FO thing.

I think you are misunderstanding my position on the matter. Personally, I could care less what is fair to whom.

I am a Texan fan, so I want my team playing at the best of its ability. I think that having Dunta in camp at this point would help get that goal accomplished. I don't care about what is fair to Dunta honestly. My point is that I don't see how agreeing to not franchise him again if he reaches certain incentives hurts the team.

You get the guy in camp which not only helps the young DB's, but it also helps the offense get a better look which in turn makes the entire team that much sharper.

And if teams are looking to see how other teams have dealt with similar situations, I think we should aim to handle situations more like New England and Tennesse vs. Oakland and Carolina

The Texans (Rick Smith) doesn't seem willing to even bend a little, for the sake of getting guys in and somewhat satisfying players...IMO that is not a good thing for the team, but we'll see...

Polo
08-12-2009, 11:50 AM
Agreeing to not tag him again would also leave the Texans without compensation. We could tag him, then trade him for a draft pick. The Patriots tagged Cassel and ended up trading him and Vrabel for a 2. Does anybody honestly think the Pats were going to pay him what they tagged him for? They knew what they were doing.

Dunta will be playing for the Texans this season and that's really all that matters to me right now.

Sorry for the interruption, carry on. :)

If they tag him again they may not get compensation regardless.

The patriots are a good example because of how they have handled players they've franchised.

They didn't franchise Asaunte and Cassel for the same reasons...

Specnatz
08-12-2009, 12:30 PM
If they tag him again they may not get compensation regardless.

The patriots are a good example because of how they have handled players they've franchised.

They didn't franchise Asaunte and Cassel for the same reasons...

They did franchise Cassel and he accepted it and then he was traded to KC.

Mr teX
08-12-2009, 12:53 PM
Agreeing to not tag him again would also leave the Texans without compensation. We could tag him, then trade him for a draft pick. The Patriots tagged Cassel and ended up trading him and Vrabel for a 2. Does anybody honestly think the Pats were going to pay him what they tagged him for? They knew what they were doing.

Dunta will be playing for the Texans this season and that's really all that matters to me right now.

Sorry for the interruption, carry on. :)

The cassel situation is different only because teams are desperate for Qb's (see rob johnson & scott mitchell) & after the season Cassel had, NE banked & eventually cashed in heavily on that desperation. Furthermore, If the FO didn't think Dunta was that good or come back right as some have insinuated in here, they wouldn't be offering the guy 10 mil now & certainly wouldn't be holding onto their right to be able to franchise him if they chose to do so next year. Also, what was Cassel making at this time last year? Of course he was gonna accept that huge bump in salary from NE & the franchise tag without any gripes. him being traded was just more icing on the cake as he was in a win-win situation regardless.

Mr teX
08-12-2009, 01:05 PM
I think the texans know dunta would get offered more out on the market & are trying to strong arm him to come back & prove to them he's back before they offer him anything more than what they reportedly did offer him. Strategically good move, but it could also sour any good will he might've had towards the organization.

Most players would rather stay & finish their careers in 1 spot & most times when they leave (under their own power & assuming all's well between them & the FO) it's because the money is exorbitantly more than what the home team is offering.

badboy
08-12-2009, 02:11 PM
This Dunta thing is getting boring and repetitive. Can we go back to the name calling and insults?

Specnatz
08-12-2009, 02:24 PM
This Dunta thing is getting boring and repetitive. Can we go back to the name calling and insults?

Sure why not.


Your boat is slow.

badboy
08-12-2009, 03:05 PM
Sure why not.


Your boat is slow.

Now that's funny right there!

painekiller
08-12-2009, 03:23 PM
That's why you make him reach certain incentives.

Then if he reaches those incentives you atleast got a hell of a year out of him.

Two teams that have consitently fielded good to great teams have done this and had their players walk "with no compensation".

But to me that doesn't even make sense because you can only franchise him twice anyways. Eventually he'll walk "with no compensation" anyways.

I think you should read this

http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/08/more_dunta_robinson_talks_the.html#more

Only five players have been given this clause:


Shaun Alexander. 3 Pro Bowls, 1 NFL MVP, 1 Super Bowl Appearance. Seahawks agreed not to franchise him a second time, and then he signed a long term deal, got paid, is no longer in the league.

Nate Clements. 1 Pro Bowl. Bills agreed not to franchise him a second time, and then he bolted to the 49ers to be temporarily the highest paid defensive player in the NFL.

Asante Samuel. 2 Pro Bowls, 2 Super Bowl wins. Patriots agreed not to franchise him a second time, and then he bolted to the Eagles after he won a SB first.

Lance Briggs. 4 Pro Bowls, one Super Bowl appearance. Bears agreed not to franchise him a second time, and then after the season signed a long term contract with the Bears.

Albert Haynesworth. 2 Pro Bowl/All Pro Selections. Titans agreed not to franchise him a second time, and Haynesworth bolted to the Redskins so fast that tampering was alleged.


And Dunta is not in this club, 0 playoffs, 0 pro bowls.

potisyourfriend
08-13-2009, 01:22 AM
Late to the party but I'll just add. Just shut up and play. Lifes hard I know when you make millions playing or in this case acting like a top 5 CB.

awtysst
08-13-2009, 01:03 PM
Two points I want to make:

1. Anyone that just wants to throw down big $ to keep DR should look at the situation that Indy has with Bob Sanders. Like DR, Sanders plays like a wild man. Since signing his contract($20 mill guaranteed) Bob has played in 6/17 games. He has recurrung knee injuries for years. Now, in preseason, Sanders is going to visit with Dr. james Andres. Never a good sign.

2. DR is not good enough to get the no second year franchise guarantee. SAs has been pointed out, those players that got that deal were multiple time probowlers or league MVPs. DR is not in that class of player. When an organization agrees to that stipulation, then it sends a message to every other player in the locker room. Players like Mario, Meco, and Daniels, who i think ARE better at their position than DR is will want that same treatment. They will point to the fact that we acquiesced with DR and he is not their caliber of player.

So, I say DR does not deserve this stipulation and it should not be given to him.

Runner
08-13-2009, 01:14 PM
1. Anyone that just wants to throw down big $ to keep DR should look at the situation that Indy has with Bob Sanders. Like DR, Sanders plays like a wild man. Since signing his contract($20 mill guaranteed) Bob has played in 6/17 games. He has recurrung knee injuries for years. Now, in preseason, Sanders is going to visit with Dr. james Andres. Never a good sign.



Hmmmm. Apparently Rick Smith is one of these "anyones" given the nature of his rumored long term offer and his willingness to pay Dunta $20M+ for two years work if he franchises him twice...

Pantherstang84
08-13-2009, 01:50 PM
Hmmmm. Apparently Rick Smith is one of these "anyones" given the nature of his rumored long term offer and his willingness to pay Dunta $20M+ for two years work if he franchises him twice...

Hmmmmm. Seems some folks are writing checks before the price is announced.

No one has said Rick Smith is going to slap the tag on DR after this season. If
DR has a bad year then let him walk. However, if Dunta finally makes it to the Pro Bowl this year, Smith should have the tag option if needed.

That's the real point.

Do you give Rick Smith the tools needed to do his job or don't you?

Runner
08-13-2009, 02:03 PM
Hmmmm. Apparently Rick Smith is one of these "anyones" given the nature of his rumored long term offer and his willingness to pay Dunta $20M+ for two years work if he franchises him twice...

Hmmmmm. Seems some folks are writing checks before the price is announced.


As I said, IF he franchises him twice it'll be twenty million. That's the price, and Smith is reserving the right to pay it if he so chooses.

dalemurphy
08-13-2009, 02:11 PM
As I said, IF he franchises him twice it'll be twenty million. That's the price.

that's not true. the price would be almost $12 million... franchising a player for a second consecutive time is a 20% increase from their salary the previous season. This year's franchise tag is almost $10 million...

If you are trying to make the point that two franchise tags are equal to a contract with $20 million guaranteed, that is a very bogus argument. If a player signs a deal with a $20 million signing bonus over about 5 years, the reality is that the team will also be on the hook for the salary of those first 3 seasons, at least. In addition, the Texans have the option of with the franchise tag of letting him walk after the season if they don't think he's worth retaining at that price. The reason for the predicament is that Dunta had a serious injury in '07 that he hasn't shown to be fully recovered from. Also, he hasn't played at a consistently high level for more than one season at a time. It makes total sense that the Texans are reluctant to commit top money to that type of player- particularly since they have lots of other important contracts coming do the next 2 years.

For fans and I believe for the Texan organization, the main issue isn't the out of pocket expense that McNair will incur but the salary cap ramifications of the deal.

Runner
08-13-2009, 03:12 PM
If the the Texans franchise Dunta two years in a row they'll pay him over $20,000,000 for those two years (barring a sign and trade, where another team is on the hook for that money or a new contract). Twist it any way you like, that is a fact.

Do they have to franchise him the second year? No. Does that change the validity of the first statement? No.

The cost of a hypothetical five year contract does not change the validity of the first statement either.

Seems like people are arguing the first statement just for argument's sake.

badboy
08-13-2009, 03:23 PM
Hmmmmm. Seems some folks are writing checks before the price is announced.

No one has said Rick Smith is going to slap the tag on DR after this season. If
DR has a bad year then let him walk. However, if Dunta finally makes it to the Pro Bowl this year, Smith should have the tag option if needed.

That's the real point.

Do you give Rick Smith the tools needed to do his job or don't you?Smith has wisely put the team in the driver seat. For now he can wait and see how the other candidates perform. Bennett should be a starter and had a pretty decent season last year and imo will start on one side. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=10566 and
coach pleased by his progress http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6566681.html and

nice pick against AJ http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6565534.html

I think Quinn will be another Bennett in his rookie year and be fine on other side. If not Deltha Oneal should be able to hold position until Reeves returns. This is scenario only if DR holds out into regular season & I do not think he will. As a last resort, Wilson could move to CB as Barber is looking very good. We have gone with "Left & Right safeties" before and can again, especially with the new pass rushing Dline.

Runner
08-13-2009, 03:31 PM
If the the Texans franchise Dunta two years in a row they'll pay him over $20,000,000 for those two years (barring a sign and trade, where another team is on the hook for that money or a new contract). Twist it any way you like, that is a fact.

Do they have to franchise him the second year? No. Does that change the validity of the first statement? No.

The cost of a hypothetical five year contract does not change the validity of the first statement either.

Seems like people are arguing the first statement just for argument's sake.

No so fast, Runner.

If the "Texans" franchise Dunta a second year, then change their name to "Oilers Redux", then the "Texans" have franchised him twice and only paid him $10M, with "Oilers Redux" paying the additional $12M.

Runner

Runner
08-13-2009, 03:36 PM
If the the Texans franchise Dunta two years in a row they'll pay him over $20,000,000 for those two years (barring a sign and trade, where another team is on the hook for that money or a new contract). Twist it any way you like, that is a fact.

Do they have to franchise him the second year? No. Does that change the validity of the first statement? No.

The cost of a hypothetical five year contract does not change the validity of the first statement either.

Seems like people are arguing the first statement just for argument's sake.

No so fast, Runner.

If the "Texans" franchise Dunta a second year, then change their name to "Oilers Redux", then the "Texans" have franchised him twice and only paid him $10M, with "Oilers Redux" paying the additional $12M.

Runner

Crap. I got me there.

badboy
08-13-2009, 03:41 PM
Uh...never mind. I am totally lost, but I stay that way.

Runner
08-13-2009, 03:46 PM
Uh...never mind. I am totally lost, but I stay that way.

That's ok, just post a long, rambling dialogue and you'll probably touch on a couple of salient points.

Specnatz
08-13-2009, 03:48 PM
Uh...never mind. I am totally lost, but I stay that way.

1 year (this year) = $10 million

2nd year (next year franchise price tag) = $12 million


so two years would be $22 mil

Others fail to see what runner was saying so he thought he would argue with himself. I guess he could not find a :brickwall:

HOU-TEX
08-13-2009, 04:52 PM
1 year (this year) = $10 million

2nd year (next year franchise price tag) = $12 million


so two years would be $22 mil

Others fail to see what runner was saying so he thought he would argue with himself. I guess he could not find a :brickwall:

It's fun arguing with yourself......just as long as it doesn't turn physically violent.

badboy
08-13-2009, 05:04 PM
1 year (this year) = $10 million

2nd year (next year franchise price tag) = $12 million


so two years would be $22 mil

Others fail to see what runner was saying so he thought he would argue with himself. I guess he could not find a :brickwall:I got his earlier post it was the Oiler Redux that threw me into a panic. I had a day dream about McNair backing up 18 wheelers to Reliant.

badboy
08-13-2009, 05:06 PM
That's ok, just post a long, rambling dialogue and you'll probably touch on a couple of salient points.I do that all the time!! Wait, are you making fun of me? And what the hell does salt (salient) have to do with it? :smiliedance:

badboy
08-13-2009, 05:08 PM
It's fun arguing with yourself......just as long as it doesn't turn physically violent. I have fun with my self all the time. Arguing, I mean. Was not sure if I needed to clarify....

HOU-TEX
08-13-2009, 05:11 PM
I have fun with my self all the time. Arguing, I mean. Was not sure if I needed to clarify....

Wise to do so, especially with TB running around here

Thorn
08-13-2009, 05:16 PM
I have fun with my self all the time. Arguing, I mean. Was not sure if I needed to clarify....

Probably wise you did, it can take years of posting to live down certain posts around here. LOL

dalemurphy
08-13-2009, 05:35 PM
1 year (this year) = $10 million

2nd year (next year franchise price tag) = $12 million


so two years would be $22 mil

Others fail to see what runner was saying so he thought he would argue with himself. I guess he could not find a :brickwall:

actually, Runner won't concede or can't comprehend the nuances that some of us are arguing. He is trying to argue, it seems to me, that the team having the option to franchise Dunta again next year = the same cost as signing him to a long term contract. That argument, in fact, is way off base. However, instead of acknowledging posts which counter that argument, he performs a one man play mocking any counter argument to his.

Runner
08-13-2009, 06:04 PM
actually, Runner won't concede

I can concede. I conceded on the likelihood of Dunta getting a Gamble like offer a few posts back after I argued against it for a month or more. I'll change my opinion based on new evidence or a convincing case made for the counterpoint. I'm not likely to change it for bluster, made up "facts", or wishes.


actually, Runner won't ... can't comprehend the nuances that some of us are arguing. He is trying to argue, it seems to me, that the team having the option to franchise Dunta again next year = the same cost as signing him to a long term contract.

Funny you say I can't comprehend something, since you are the one saying that I am arguing the part I've bolded in your quote. I have never said that, and it is most definitely not my point. I think your comprehension needs some work in this case.

My point is that Gamble type money is a lot for Dunta for a long term contract. Separate from that, $22M for Dunta is a lot of money for two years. Both of these options Rick Smith seems to think are ok - i.e. he made the Gamble offer, and he is reserving the right to franchise Dunta two years in a row.

However, instead of acknowledging posts which counter that argument, he performs a one man play mocking any counter argument to his.

This gets to the point. I am not mocking posts counter to my argument, because that wasn't my argument. It was a strawman built by you and attributed to me.

I am mocking posts that have to twist what I say and put words into my mouth so that they can "prove I'm wrong". That was the point of my play, in case you still missed it.

Double Barrel
08-13-2009, 06:40 PM
I get what Runner is saying: R. Smith wants the option to either 1) pay D.Rob $23 million guaranteed, or 2) $22 million for two franchise tag years.

Either way, Runner believes that this is probably too much to pay a non-elite CB like D.Rob, but obviously R. Smith does not see it this way or he would not have offered the original guarantee and would provide D.Rob with the confirmation of not franchising him next season.

Back to the point of this thread, I do believe that #23 will be playing the first game. He's not going to throw away $600,00+ a game in order to prove a point that he's already lost. R. Smith holds all the cards. It's his deck right now.

ArlingtonTexan
08-13-2009, 06:55 PM
Actually the use of the word 'Coon ass' is derogative against both 'race' and 'ethnicity' alike. As mentioned before, it is used to connect a certain group of people to certain attributes so as to dehumanize them.



This is a case of what is called Orientalism. How an ethnic group embraces others perception of self, making it part of their own identity. Coon-ass, N-worders are examples of this. Actually, post-colonial nationalist India is pretty much based on how India was seen by Great Britan during to colonial period, embraced and institutionalized.

This makes my Liberal Arts (not political liberal) heart smile.

Texans_Chick
08-14-2009, 11:30 AM
I get what Runner is saying: R. Smith wants the option to either 1) pay D.Rob $23 million guaranteed, or 2) $22 million for two franchise tag years.

Either way, Runner believes that this is probably too much to pay a non-elite CB like D.Rob, but obviously R. Smith does not see it this way or he would not have offered the original guarantee and would provide D.Rob with the confirmation of not franchising him next season.

Back to the point of this thread, I do believe that #23 will be playing the first game. He's not going to throw away $600,00+ a game in order to prove a point that he's already lost. R. Smith holds all the cards. It's his deck right now.


Ultimately, we do not know a good value for DR because he hasn't played any snaps 100% since 2007. If he plays a much better 2009, the Texans may actually want to pay him more than $23 m or franchise tag him again, especially with escalating salaries at premium positions.

Runner
08-14-2009, 11:46 AM
Yes, it's hard to know what Dunta is worth. It appears that the Texans think he might be worth a lot to them, judging by their actions. They seem to value him more than many fans. This will be an intetesting season to see what Dunta has got to offer.

nunusguy
08-14-2009, 12:02 PM
I dunno why to you guys keep arguing about how Robinson is upset with the
money and/or the terms of the deal he's been offered by the Texans so far ?
Doesn't it seem more and more apparent to you that he doesn't want to be in Houston and/or he wants to be in another city for whatever reason(s) which have nothing at all to do with money, contract terms, etc. ?

ChampionTexan
08-14-2009, 12:09 PM
I dunno why to you guys keep arguing about how Robinson is upset with the
money and/or the terms of the deal he's been offered by the Texans so far ?
Doesn't it seem more and more apparent to you that he doesn't want to be in Houston and/or he wants to be in another city for whatever reason(s) which have nothing at all to do with money, contract terms, etc. ?

If all he was upset about was the city, why hasn't he signed the tender and shown up to camp, since there's absolutely nothing that's negotiable other than possibly the 2010 franchise tag?

Mr teX
08-14-2009, 12:54 PM
Yes, it's hard to know what Dunta is worth. It appears that the Texans think he might be worth a lot to them, judging by their actions. They seem to value him more than many fans. This will be an intetesting season to see what Dunta has got to offer.

& that's what people aren't looking at enough imo. The texans actions seem to suggest that they think he's going to be able to come back as strong as he was prior to the injury. With the possibility of this team being the best he's ever been apart of pass rush wise & him being back 100%, i have to say based on his production in years past I think he's gonna have a great season for us this year. I don't know what people are looking at as far as his stats go, but his look fine to me up until 2007 when he got hurt. His ints went down from his rookie year simply b/c we've essentially had a pass rush since 2004 & teams had no need to really throw his way....not when they could get what they wanted off of P-burnt, Faggins, Sanders & a young Bennett on the other side.

Another thing is, I don't wanna hear this crap about about him not having any pro bowls or MVPS thereby the texans shouldn't even consider vacating the franchise tag option for next year. we all know he got robbed his rookie year & up until last year, meco didn't have a pro bowl under his belt. If this were going on with him at the beginning of last year, would anybody be advocating we let him go or questioning his worth to this franchise? I doubt it. good db's don't grow on trees. Both sides need to make some concessions & get him into camp. Dunta has already stated what he wants, The FO is just trying to play hardball.

MojoX
08-14-2009, 12:55 PM
If all he was upset about was the city, why hasn't he signed the tender and shown up to camp, since there's absolutely nothing that's negotiable other than possibly the 2010 franchise tag?
Think about it... why would he give in (sign the tender and show up for camp) while facing the one tool the Texans have preventing his wish to leave the team?

It may be the only thing negotiable, but for a player wanting out, it is the most important thing to negotiate. If he doesn't punish the Texans the only way he can (by holding out) then he might get the franchise tag -- the only thing between him and a clean getaway -- again. All Dunta can do is give the Texans the bare minimum for their dollar and be disgruntled while he does so. This happens just about every year in the NFL.

I am past Dunta at this point. I just hope the team works out deals with Ryans and Daniels.

Double Barrel
08-14-2009, 12:56 PM
Ultimately, we do not know a good value for DR because he hasn't played any snaps 100% since 2007. If he plays a much better 2009, the Texans may actually want to pay him more than $23 m or franchise tag him again, especially with escalating salaries at premium positions.

Fan attitude is a poor barometer of a player's worth. When the team makes an offer and then franchises a player, we have at least one point of reference to speak of D.Rob's worth. Obviously, the FO disagrees with you or they would not have offered $23 million and a franchise tag of almost $10 million.

Who knows what he would have been offered as a FA. That is nothing but fan WAGs at this point.

I dunno why to you guys keep arguing about how Robinson is upset with the
money and/or the terms of the deal he's been offered by the Texans so far ?
Doesn't it seem more and more apparent to you that he doesn't want to be in Houston and/or he wants to be in another city for whatever reason(s) which have nothing at all to do with money, contract terms, etc. ?

D.Rob has always been outspoken, and up to this point, he has said nothing but wanting to stay in Houston. He has never dissed the city or Texans fans, so it's pure speculation on everyone's part to assume that he doesn't want to be here.

This is business, though, and it seems that Texans fans are wringing hands over a situation that happens to most teams over time. We'll see how it plays out, but #23 will be a Texans player in 2009 so I'm gonna' wish him the best as it benefits our team.

badboy
08-14-2009, 12:59 PM
I dunno why to you guys keep arguing about how Robinson is upset with the
money and/or the terms of the deal he's been offered by the Texans so far ?
Doesn't it seem more and more apparent to you that he doesn't want to be in Houston and/or he wants to be in another city for whatever reason(s) which have nothing at all to do with money, contract terms, etc. ?Absolutely not. I have seen nothing personally that tells me he wants to go elsewhere. He just wants the security of a long term deal with $ he think he is worth. I interpret the info we know + what is speculated as "reliable info" such as the Gamble type contract as DR thinks he is going to be a healthy enough starter that deserves his kind of deal. He also thinks that his efforts to rehab and come back last year to start should be worth re-imbursing him for. Texans seem to think maybe you are healthy and we just want to see and on the latter, we appreciate your hard work but don't forget we paid you to rehab. Dunta thinks this will probably not be his last contract but the one most like to put him in a great financial set up.

Something else that for the most part is not being focused on is the team not want to give up 2nd year tag as may be precedent setting.

badboy
08-14-2009, 01:19 PM
& that's what people aren't looking at enough imo. The texans actions seem to suggest that they think he's going to be able to come back as strong as he was prior to the injury. With the possibility of this team being the best he's ever been apart of pass rush wise & him being back 100%, i have to say based on his production in years past I think he's gonna have a great season for us this year. I don't know what people are looking at as far as his stats go, but his look fine to me up until 2007 when he got hurt. His ints went down from his rookie year simply b/c we've essentially had a pass rush since 2004 & teams had no need to really throw his way....not when they could get what they wanted off of P-burnt, Faggins, Sanders & a young Bennett on the other side.

Another thing is, I don't wanna hear this crap about about him not having any pro bowls or MVPS thereby the texans shouldn't even consider vacating the franchise tag option for next year. we all know he got robbed his rookie year & up until last year, meco didn't have a pro bowl under his belt. If this were going on with him at the beginning of last year, would anybody be advocating we let him go or questioning his worth to this franchise? I doubt it. good db's don't grow on trees. Both sides need to make some concessions & get him into camp. Dunta has already stated what he wants, The FO is just trying to play hardball.Wow, Mr T, where do I begin?

*There is NO evidence he will be 100% healthy, but Texans are willing to pay him top 5 $ or $23million guaranteed plus more over a long term deal. Dunta WAS offered a long term security contract from info provided but he declined. Seems like the Texans have compromised. Has DR?

*Rookie year was very good, but how much do you reward anyone in any profession whose productivity decreases and/or is inconsistent as his?

* How can you compare Ryans who never misses a play let alone a game to DR's playing time?

*Would this be going on with him at beginning of last season? Maybe not but at that time, he still had another injury plagued year to go. You seem to be downplaying the last two years. I can hear you telling your employer "You know boss, due to my injuries the last two years I have offered you minimal productivity. I want a huge raise based on what I did before that injured time." Well good luck with that.

* If you are going to bring up how good DR looked playing across from inferior CB, you then have to agree that his rookie year stats were pumped up because teams went at him rather that who played the other side that year.

Sorry, but you come across as A DR fan not willing to look at the whole picture. "I like him. I want him to play so pony up Texans".

Hervoyel
08-14-2009, 01:47 PM
Fan attitude is a poor barometer of a player's worth. When the team makes an offer and then franchises a player, we have at least one point of reference to speak of D.Rob's worth. Obviously, the FO disagrees with you or they would not have offered $23 million and a franchise tag of almost $10 million.

Who knows what he would have been offered as a FA. That is nothing but fan WAGs at this point.



D.Rob has always been outspoken, and up to this point, he has said nothing but wanting to stay in Houston. He has never dissed the city or Texans fans, so it's pure speculation on everyone's part to assume that he doesn't want to be here.

This is business, though, and it seems that Texans fans are wringing hands over a situation that happens to most teams over time. We'll see how it plays out, but #23 will be a Texans player in 2009 so I'm gonna' wish him the best as it benefits our team.

That is all very true. He's not said anything other than that he's a team player and he wants to get back to the Texans. What he's said and what he's done however seem at odds.

When I look at this I see Dunta saying that he wants to stay in Houston BUT I also see widely reported that he turned down money that would have made him a very highly paid player at his position. I believe that I saw the words "top 5" used at some point.

Now if this can be relied upon then why would he do that? The obvious answer (assuming he's telling the truth about wanting to stay) is that he thinks he's worth more than that. If that's the case then he is wrong.

If he's got the idea in his head that he's worth being paid like the top 1 or 2 CB's in the game and is willing to hold out all of training camp...

...following a season where he was injured for the most part and only got on the field at the end playing at less than 100%

...Prior to a season where our defense will change (supposedly a great deal)

...Prior to a season where he expects to earn a long-term contract that's bigger than the big contract he turned down and so will need to play at a very high level

I'm sorry but the man is nuts. He's turned down a contract that was equal to what he might have expected if he'd played well for all of 2008 and now seems to be dead-set on doing everything in his power to hurt his ability to truly earn that same kind of contract in 2009. If he's telling the truth about wanting to be in Houston he's got a strange way of showing it.

Of course if he's telling us what we want to hear all while trying everything in his power to work his way out of town (with little regard to what it might cost you in the short term) then everything he's done makes perfect sense. Turn down the generous offer you got from your current team, hold out and demand that they agree not to franchise you again in 2010. If they agree then great, you're out of here the moment you become a free agent. If they don't then you play for your 9.whatever million and try again next year. You've lost nothing for trying. They franchise you again and you've made your money (but of course they won't) and if they don't you leave having charged them 9.something million for your last mediocre season there.

Dunta is a competitor in the purest form. He was the one face you could always see the pain of a loss on every single time it happened. He couldn't stand to sit back and watch David Carr play like crap and smile his way back to the locker room. Dunta had to speak up because I think losing kills that man inside. I feel that he wants to leave because he wants to win and I don't think he's sold on any of the changes the Texans have made this off-season. I think he'd take half the money we offered him to go to the Patriots just to win regularly.

That's what I think.

Mr teX
08-14-2009, 02:16 PM
Wow, Mr T, where do I begin?

*There is NO evidence he will be 100% healthy, but Texans are willing to pay him top 5 $ or $23million guaranteed plus more over a long term deal. Dunta WAS offered a long term security contract from info provided but he declined. Seems like the Texans have compromised. Has DR?

*Rookie year was very good, but how much do you reward anyone in any profession whose productivity decreases and/or is inconsistent as his?

* How can you compare Ryans who never misses a play let alone a game to DR's playing time?

*Would this be going on with him at beginning of last season? Maybe not but at that time, he still had another injury plagued year to go. You seem to be downplaying the last two years. I can hear you telling your employer "You know boss, due to my injuries the last two years I have offered you minimal productivity. I want a huge raise based on what I did before that injured time." Well good luck with that.

* If you are going to bring up how good DR looked playing across from inferior CB, you then have to agree that his rookie year stats were pumped up because teams went at him rather that who played the other side that year.

Sorry, but you come across as A DR fan not willing to look at the whole picture. "I like him. I want him to play so pony up Texans".

The comparison to Meco was only in the sense that both are unhappy with their contract situations & prior to 2008, every texan fan knew that Meco was worth more than what his accolades would suggest. I was suggesting that If meco has another year like he had last year,down according to most, & he decided to take the same course of action dunta has, i seriously doubt some in here would feel the same way about him as they've come to feel about dunta.

& what are you talking about? The only games Dunta's missed in his career are all related to the same injury at the tail end of 07 & into 08. Every year prior to that, he was in the line up & starting. straight from the texans website: Pay special attention to the "GS" category.
Year Team G GS tckls solo ast sacks int yds avg lg td
2004 HOU 16 16 88 74 14 3 6 146 24.3 61 0
2005 HOU 16 16 87 68 19 1 1 1 1.0 1 0
2006 HOU 16 16 83 70 13 0 2 9 4.5 9 1
2007 HOU 9 9 35 30 5 0 2 6 3.0 10 0
2008 HOU 11 6 38 35 3 0 2 0 0.0 0 0

He doesn't have a history of missing games because of injury, just of being nicked up........find me a player in the NFL who doesn't. So yeah, excuse me if i give the guy a pass on injury issues. 2nd, he busted his hump to come back ahead of schedule & played pretty well too boot @ his self-proclaimed 85%. You go back & look at fred bennett's stats from last year, they compare very favorably & yet some in here think bennett is going to ascend as our #1 guy...shaky confidence & all & cast aside dunta. Really?

& yeah, you're right, there's no hard evidence to suggest he's 100%..but there's also no evidence to suggest he's not. I do know i've heard/read him say that his legs are stronger than they were last year during his comeback & the texans obviously want him back most likely as a starter judging by the money they've offered him. So i'll ask u, what does that "evidence" suggest? surely not status quo or regression.

Vinny
08-14-2009, 02:50 PM
I dunno why to you guys keep arguing about how Robinson is upset with the
money and/or the terms of the deal he's been offered by the Texans so far ?
Doesn't it seem more and more apparent to you that he doesn't want to be in Houston and/or he wants to be in another city for whatever reason(s) which have nothing at all to do with money, contract terms, etc. ?
I think it just boils down to money. Players pretty much consider themselves NFL players first, and "team colors" second. I remember when Bruce Matthews took an agent called Howard "hold em out" Slusher and didn't report to camp on time. There were fans calling into sports radio and crying but that was before the internet and the extreeeeeeeme fandom and extreeeeeeme interpinion. When he finally returned to the team they all called him "moneybags" and he went on to become a wildly popular player. Not saying Dunta will ever become anything near as good as Bruce was, but I guess I'm saying that judging a guy on his team contract negotiations isn't worth the time and effort to get all riled up if you axe me.

Double Barrel
08-14-2009, 03:16 PM
I think it just boils down to money. Players pretty much consider themselves NFL players first, and "team colors" second. I remember when Bruce Matthews took an agent called Howard "hold em out" Slusher and didn't report to camp on time. There were fans calling into sports radio and crying but that was before the internet and the extreeeeeeeme fandom and extreeeeeeme interpinion. When he finally returned to the team they all called him "moneybags" and he went on to become a wildly popular player. Not saying Dunta will ever become anything near as good as Bruce was, but I guess I'm saying that judging a guy on his team contract negotiations isn't worth the time and effort to get all riled up if you axe me.

yep. Without knowing the EXACT details of the contract, and without knowing the EXACT thoughts of the FO and the EXACT thoughts of D.Rob, there seems to be a lot of emotion-based speculation going on.

But hey, it's a message board and that's what it's about. I'm just not going to demonize a guy without knowing the full truth, and I'm not talking trash about a player that I've always rooted for and will most likely root for this season. I'm not taking sides, simply because it's a blind pissing match to do so at this point in time. JMO.

badboy
08-14-2009, 04:56 PM
The comparison to Meco was only in the sense that both are unhappy with their contract situations & prior to 2008, every texan fan knew that Meco was worth more than what his accolades would suggest. I was suggesting that If meco has another year like he had last year,down according to most, & he decided to take the same course of action dunta has, i seriously doubt some in here would feel the same way about him as they've come to feel about dunta.

& what are you talking about? The only games Dunta's missed in his career are all related to the same injury at the tail end of 07 & into 08. Every year prior to that, he was in the line up & starting. straight from the texans website: Pay special attention to the "GS" category.
Year Team G GS tckls solo ast sacks int yds avg lg td
2004 HOU 16 16 88 74 14 3 6 146 24.3 61 0
2005 HOU 16 16 87 68 19 1 1 1 1.0 1 0
2006 HOU 16 16 83 70 13 0 2 9 4.5 9 1
2007 HOU 9 9 35 30 5 0 2 6 3.0 10 0
2008 HOU 11 6 38 35 3 0 2 0 0.0 0 0

He doesn't have a history of missing games because of injury, just of being nicked up........find me a player in the NFL who doesn't. So yeah, excuse me if i give the guy a pass on injury issues. 2nd, he busted his hump to come back ahead of schedule & played pretty well too boot @ his self-proclaimed 85%. You go back & look at fred bennett's stats from last year, they compare very favorably & yet some in here think bennett is going to ascend as our #1 guy...shaky confidence & all & cast aside dunta. Really?

& yeah, you're right, there's no hard evidence to suggest he's 100%..but there's also no evidence to suggest he's not. I do know i've heard/read him say that his legs are stronger than they were last year during his comeback & the texans obviously want him back most likely as a starter judging by the money they've offered him. So i'll ask u, what does that "evidence" suggest? surely not status quo or regression.Matt Schaub has missed games the last two years and fans are saying he has to stay on field. Same should be said for DR. Look, I like the guy just think he is making a huge mistake not being in camp. Can he come in game one and be effective. Yes, but he should be in TC helping Bennett.

Texans_Chick
08-14-2009, 05:10 PM
Fan attitude is a poor barometer of a player's worth. When the team makes an offer and then franchises a player, we have at least one point of reference to speak of D.Rob's worth. Obviously, the FO disagrees with you or they would not have offered $23 million and a franchise tag of almost $10 million.

They made the offer they thought was fair. DR didn't take it.

They franchised him: 1. because they didn't need to use the franchise tag on another player; 2. they didn't want to lose him for nothing; 3. it gave them until July 15th to work out a deal but that didn't happen; 4. they get to see what he has left post injury.

They thought that DR would take the offer because it was a pretty good offer relative to the market and his injury history, and that DR is taking a huge risk in going for guaranteed $10 m. versus $23 m. If he gets hurt this season and out of the league, well, that's on him.

So that he got franchised doesn't really mean he is a franchise CB. It doesn't predict appropriate value for a long term deal. It was just a tool to keep him from skipping out with no real compensation to the team.

CloakNNNdagger
08-14-2009, 05:14 PM
They made the offer they thought was fair. DR didn't take it.

They franchised him: 1. because they didn't need to use the franchise tag on another player; 2. they didn't want to lose him for nothing; 3. it gave them until July 15th to work out a deal but that didn't happen; 4. they get to see what he has left post injury.

They thought that DR would take the offer because it was a pretty good offer relative to the market and his injury history, and that DR is taking a huge risk in going for guaranteed $10 m. versus $23 m. If he gets hurt this season and out of the league, well, that's on him.

So that he got franchised doesn't really mean he is a franchise CB. It doesn't predict appropriate value for a long term deal. It was just a tool to keep him from skipping out with no real compensation to the team.

TC,
Has anyone ever confirmed the supposed offer of the 23 million dollar contract and its structure?

Double Barrel
08-14-2009, 05:34 PM
They made the offer they thought was fair. DR didn't take it.

They franchised him: 1. because they didn't need to use the franchise tag on another player; 2. they didn't want to lose him for nothing; 3. it gave them until July 15th to work out a deal but that didn't happen; 4. they get to see what he has left post injury.

They thought that DR would take the offer because it was a pretty good offer relative to the market and his injury history, and that DR is taking a huge risk in going for guaranteed $10 m. versus $23 m. If he gets hurt this season and out of the league, well, that's on him.

So that he got franchised doesn't really mean he is a franchise CB. It doesn't predict appropriate value for a long term deal. It was just a tool to keep him from skipping out with no real compensation to the team.

Good points and I understand what you're saying. I was just replying that we do have a value measurement because of the Texans offer. That's a starting point, and obviously, only a starting point. Nobody knows what free agency would have priced him at simply because he never had the opportunity to test it, AFAIK.

Where did the Texans get this number to offer him, though? :thinking:

barrett
08-14-2009, 06:48 PM
TC,
Has anyone ever confirmed the supposed offer of the 23 million dollar contract and its structure?

No. Nope. Nuh-uh. No Sir. Nosirrybob. Niet. Nin.

disaacks3
08-14-2009, 06:57 PM
Good points and I understand what you're saying. I was just replying that we do have a value measurement because of the Texans offer. That's a starting point, and obviously, only a starting point. Nobody knows what free agency would have priced him at simply because he never had the opportunity to test it, AFAIK.

Where did the Texans get this number to offer him, though? :thinking: He received a non-exclusive franchise tag. He could negotiate with ANYbody, but the Texans would get the right to match. If the Texans didn't match it, they would receive two 1st rounders. Not the same as "true" Free Agency, but it's not as if he couldn't talk to anybody.

Thorn
08-14-2009, 07:00 PM
Dunta this, Dunta that. I'm tired of it. Either he shows up and collects the money he's not worth, or he doesn't. I don't care about the professional side of football, I'm a fan, not involved professionally. All I care about is whether the Texans make it to the playoffs or not, and Dunta isn't helping by holding out, so he can kiss my ass.

Lucky
08-14-2009, 07:07 PM
Not the same as "true" Free Agency...
No, it's not. Not even in the same galaxy. Name the last time a team signed a franchise tagged player to an offer sheet.

Double Barrel
08-14-2009, 07:09 PM
He received a non-exclusive franchise tag. He could negotiate with ANYbody, but the Texans would get the right to match. If the Texans didn't match it, they would receive two 1st rounders. Not the same as "true" Free Agency, but it's not as if he couldn't talk to anybody.

Well that's a lot different that straight up free agency. Two first rounders puts it out of reach for 99.9% of players in the league. I can only think of two QBs that might be worth that kind of crazy offer.

Somebody would have to offer a big contract to D.Rob and two first round picks under the non-exclusive franchise tag, correct? If so, that's just not being realistic in trying to compare to a free agency market.

Dunta this, Dunta that. I'm tired of it. Either he shows up and collects the money he's not worth, or he doesn't. I don't care about the professional side of football, I'm a fan, not involved professionally. All I care about is whether the Texans make it to the playoffs or not, and Dunta isn't helping by holding out, so he can kiss my ass.

Well, you did choose to enter a thread devoted to D.Rob, so what did you expect? :shades:

Thorn
08-14-2009, 07:12 PM
Well, you did choose to enter a thread devoted to D.Rob, so what did you expect? :shades:

LOL. Like I've always said, it's a tough job being an asshole but it's something I do well.

But, yeah, I do see your point. I just can't help myself.

disaacks3
08-14-2009, 07:18 PM
Well that's a lot different that straight up free agency. Two first rounders puts it out of reach for 99.9% of players in the league. I can only think of two QBs that might be worth that kind of crazy offer.

Somebody would have to offer a big contract to D.Rob and two first round picks under the non-exclusive franchise tag, correct? If so, that's just not being realistic in trying to compare to a free agency market.

I'm just saying he wasn't prohibited from "talking" to another team. It's likely that they could've given him numbers of what they would offer (without the tag) for him to consider. That may be why he feels (the theoretical) 23mil wasn't enough. Just something to ponder.

thunderkyss
08-14-2009, 07:25 PM
TC,
Has anyone ever confirmed the supposed offer of the 23 million dollar contract and its structure?




No. Nope. Nuh-uh. No Sir. Nosirrybob. Niet. Nin.

We've got to get off the $23 million..... I can't find it in me to believe the Texans offered Dunta $23 million, and there's no way in the world, I can believe he would turn down $23 million.

& this whole thing makes more sense, to me....... if the Texans offered him less.

Malloy
08-21-2009, 05:39 PM
Take that, dead horse!

nfl.com speaks of the Dunta-Texan situation.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/08/21/texans-no-show-robinson-trying-to-stay-in-shape/

painekiller
08-21-2009, 06:22 PM
Take that, dead horse!

nfl.com speaks of the Dunta-Texan situation.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/08/21/texans-no-show-robinson-trying-to-stay-in-shape/

Sounds to me like Dunta and his agent want to try some spin and damage control. Aaron Glenn has been on the talk shows here trying to defend Dunta, but even Aaron was shocked when told the reported deal he turned down. Aaron said that deal would have made him one of the top 5 paid corners in football. So Aaron did not believe the report with hearing those numbers from Dunta (and that is a fair response).

IMO Dunta has gotten wind of the negative fan reactions here and wants to try and say see I am not the evil one.

Dunta lost all his leverage when they franchised him.

GP
08-21-2009, 06:25 PM
Dunta this, Dunta that. I'm tired of it. Either he shows up and collects the money he's not worth, or he doesn't. I don't care about the professional side of football, I'm a fan, not involved professionally. All I care about is whether the Texans make it to the playoffs or not, and Dunta isn't helping by holding out, so he can kiss my ass.


:goodpost:


LMAO.

I needed a dose of Thorn today. Thank you.

Thorn
08-21-2009, 06:53 PM
:goodpost:


LMAO.

I needed a dose of Thorn today. Thank you.

This gives me an idea. I'm not going to post anymore unless yall pay me for it. I want 10 million a year to continue posting. If I don't get it, I'll not post anymore.

signed

Dunta Thorn

gary
08-21-2009, 06:56 PM
Dunta this, Dunta that. I'm tired of it. Either he shows up and collects the money he's not worth, or he doesn't. I don't care about the professional side of football, I'm a fan, not involved professionally. All I care about is whether the Texans make it to the playoffs or not, and Dunta isn't helping by holding out, so he can kiss my ass.There is only one problem he'd have to wait untill he signs the tender and returns back to Houston. That would be some welcome home party for Dante.:)

CloakNNNdagger
08-21-2009, 07:03 PM
There is only one problem he'd have to wait untill he signs the tender and returns back to Houston. That would be some welcome home party for Dante.:)

G-d help him when he returns, if he plays like a 1 million dollar player rather than a 10 million dollar player. It will be brutal.

gary
08-21-2009, 07:06 PM
G-d help him when he returns, if he plays like a 1 million dollar player rather than a 10 million dollar player. It will be brutal.Right, Thorn might have to wait awhile.

b0ng
08-21-2009, 07:21 PM
Welp, this is a make or break season for him. If he plays well he'll earn a huge payday somewhere else. If he plays poorly he can absolutely forget about getting 23mil from anybody ever.

TEXANRED
08-21-2009, 07:51 PM
This gives me an idea. I'm not going to post anymore unless yall pay me for it. I want 10 million a year to continue posting. If I don't get it, I'll not post anymore.

signed

Dunta Thorn

Well I am going to tell you the same thing the Texans told DRob......Detroit.

Double Barrel
08-21-2009, 08:11 PM
Dunta this, Dunta that. I'm tired of it. Either he shows up and collects the money he's not worth, or he doesn't. I don't care about the professional side of football, I'm a fan, not involved professionally. All I care about is whether the Texans make it to the playoffs or not, and Dunta isn't helping by holding out, so he can kiss my ass.

Well, on the bright side, at least he's not getting hurt in meaningless preseason games. :thisbig:

Thorn
08-21-2009, 08:20 PM
Well I am going to tell you the same thing the Texans told DRob......Detroit.

Wow. Now that’s depressing.

Well, on the bright side, at least he's not getting hurt in meaningless preseason games. :thisbig:

Considering this, Dunta is still eligible to kiss my ass.

Vinnie
08-21-2009, 11:20 PM
Considering this, Dunta is still eligible to kiss my ass.

Best post ever

Malloy
08-22-2009, 06:45 AM
This gives me an idea. I'm not going to post anymore unless yall pay me for it. I want 10 million a year to continue posting. If I don't get it, I'll not post anymore.

signed

Dunta Thorn

Well in that case you can either post for free, or kiss MY ass :)

Thorn
08-22-2009, 07:38 AM
Well in that case you can either post for free, or kiss MY ass :)


OK, thats it. I'm not posting anymore.

Oh wait.......

CloakNNNdagger
08-22-2009, 08:15 AM
Well in that case you can either post for free, or kiss MY ass :)

I'm very selective on this subject. There ARE some asses I just absolutely refuse to kiss.

http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/kiss-my-ass-10.jpg

On the other hand,............................

http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/kiss-my-ass-2-1.jpg