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m5kwatts
06-21-2009, 11:08 PM
So I think we've all been wondering how the Texans are going to carry Owen Daniels, Joel Dreesen, Anthony Hill and James Casey on the same roster without having to carry "4 tight ends"

Meaning---JC will be snuck on the roster in some other role (long snapper, receiver, backup fullback, I've even heard 3rd quarterback)

My question is what happens if:

Grigsby proves worthy of the backup fullback job via special teams play and ability to fill in for Leach on the offense

Assume the WR situation holds true and the same 5 from last year make it obviously (JJ the 5th)

Assume JC isn't the long snapper (I don't think he's even getting reps there right now)

Will they have to carry 4 TE's on game day?? It's looking like that is a great possibility...what position will lose a spot now because of this?

J. Sean Wonton
06-21-2009, 11:45 PM
So I think we've all been wondering how the Texans are going to carry Owen Daniels, Joel Dreesen, Anthony Hill and James Casey on the same roster without having to carry "4 tight ends"

Meaning---JC will be snuck on the roster in some other role (long snapper, receiver, backup fullback, I've even heard 3rd quarterback)

My question is what happens if:

Grigsby proves worthy of the backup fullback job via special teams play and ability to fill in for Leach on the offense

Assume the WR situation holds true and the same 5 from last year make it obviously (JJ the 5th)

Assume JC isn't the long snapper (I don't think he's even getting reps there right now)

Will they have to carry 4 TE's on game day?? It's looking like that is a great possibility...what position will lose a spot now because of this?

I think one of your assumptions has to go. My guess is that the 4th TE would double as a long snapper. Kubiak has hinted to it.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Grigsby didn't make it.

What I would really like is for the fifth receiver not to make it, but I'm sure there will be five receivers.

Maybe we lose some line depth with the versatility of Caldwell?

m5kwatts
06-21-2009, 11:56 PM
I think one of your assumptions has to go. My guess is that the 4th TE would double as a long snapper. Kubiak has hinted to it.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Grigsby didn't make it.

What I would really like is for the fifth receiver not to make it, but I'm sure there will be five receivers.

Maybe we lose some line depth with the versatility of Caldwell?

So if Clark Harris makes it as the LS and 4th TE then where does Casey make it as? 6th WR?

If they carried Cecil Sapp as a 2nd FB last year then I'd think they'd carry Grigsby in that same role this year....I don't think Casey can make it as that because if Vonta got hurt you'd need a real FB to fill in like a Grigsby

barrett
06-22-2009, 12:32 AM
Sapp was carried as a FB/RB when he was active.

threetoedpete
06-22-2009, 01:10 AM
JMHO: I think you can draw some inference to what they have done in the past where the FB/ TE is concerned. I think at this point all we can do is offer wild guesses at what they will do. At this point no one, not even Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith knows. And I do not believe Kubiak is going to know for certain until September 8th when he will ultimately have to make a final choice.

What I know for a fact is the final cuts this year will not be pleasant. I do not expect them to sneak too many through final wavers as they have done in the past.

mussop
06-22-2009, 02:41 AM
Also consider we are likely to carry 3 QB's this year. Yeh some good players arent going to make this team.

TimeKiller
06-22-2009, 12:39 PM
Assume the WR situation holds true and the same 5 from last year make it obviously (JJ the 5th)

Assume JC isn't the long snapper (I don't think he's even getting reps there right now)

The WR depth I could very easily see going to 4 with AJ/K-dub/AD/DA and cutting Jamomma. Also Casey has reportedly been working with Matthews on long snapping. I don't know why else he would be doing that unless he was working on it to contribute to the team. He certainly offers more outside of LS than Clark Harris, who I can't even believe is still on the roster.

badboy
06-22-2009, 01:38 PM
DT:Cody, Okoye, TJ, Okam and Deljuan. That's 5 and I could see 4. ALso, SMith can slide inside and I think Bulman has time at DT.

JCTexan
06-22-2009, 02:29 PM
The WR depth I could very easily see going to 4 with AJ/K-dub/AD/DA and cutting Jamomma. Also Casey has reportedly been working with Matthews on long snapping. I don't know why else he would be doing that unless he was working on it to contribute to the team. He certainly offers more outside of LS than Clark Harris, who I can't even believe is still on the roster.

I could also see that happening. James Casey could easily be the 5th receiver if we needed one sometime in the year. JJ is going to have to show something as a WR if he wants to make this team.

m5kwatts
06-22-2009, 03:04 PM
I could also see that happening. James Casey could easily be the 5th receiver if we needed one sometime in the year. JJ is going to have to show something as a WR if he wants to make this team.

No way JJ gets cut....he would have to take some big steps backwards to get cut...receivers take a while to develop and Kubiak has said a lot of positive things about JJ so far, they think he can still be a receiver in this league from what I've gathered

What about 6 WR's (w/ Casey as the 6th)? They were close to having to carry Harry Williams as the 6th WR last year before his tragic injury.

TimeKiller
06-22-2009, 03:24 PM
No way JJ gets cut....he would have to take some big steps backwards to get cut...receivers take a while to develop and Kubiak has said a lot of positive things about JJ so far, they think he can still be a receiver in this league from what I've gathered
Quite the contrary, I think JJ has to take a big step forward to step out of the way of the axe. I don't believe it takes 3 years to see what a reciever has like it does with DT or QB and the like. Furthermore I think his contributions the last 2 years merit nothing more than a spot at camp. That was then, this is now. What do you have to contribute now Jacoby Jones? Questionable hands, a possible attitude problem and potential don't count this year.

What about 6 WR's (w/ Casey as the 6th)? They were close to having to carry Harry Williams as the 6th WR last year before his tragic injury.

Good point.

JCTexan
06-22-2009, 03:25 PM
No way JJ gets cut....he would have to take some big steps backwards to get cut...receivers take a while to develop and Kubiak has said a lot of positive things about JJ so far, they think he can still be a receiver in this league from what I've gathered

What about 6 WR's (w/ Casey as the 6th)? They were close to having to carry Harry Williams as the 6th WR last year before his tragic injury.

Some big steps backward? He only had 81 receiving yards last year, and only has 230 for his career. I hope he has improved his game, but the Texans are improving their depth where I don't think they will carry someone just to be a punt returner.

I don't really see a difference calling Casey the 6th WR instead of the 4th TE.

m5kwatts
06-22-2009, 03:36 PM
Some big steps backward? He only had 81 receiving yards last year, and only has 230 for his career. I hope he has improved his game, but the Texans are improving their depth where I don't think they will carry someone just to be a punt returner.

I don't really see a difference calling Casey the 6th WR instead of the 4th TE.

I view JJ's big play ability on punt returns as a lot more valuable than others I guess, the Texans were 3rd in the league in punt return avg., so essentially JJ is one of the best at returning punts....we've all seen that ability and we've seen the turnovers too so you hope you see improvement there...I think the staff still sees a receiver in him and if you can get him to perform as one of the best players in the league in returning punts in the mean time while he develops then they'll stick with him longer

J. Sean Wonton
06-22-2009, 03:39 PM
So if Clark Harris makes it as the LS and 4th TE then where does Casey make it as? 6th WR?

If they carried Cecil Sapp as a 2nd FB last year then I'd think they'd carry Grigsby in that same role this year....I don't think Casey can make it as that because if Vonta got hurt you'd need a real FB to fill in like a Grigsby

I'm saying that I don't think Clark Harris will make the roster. I think Casey will be the 4th TE and LS.

Or, they will cut JJ, or they will cut Grigsby.

Those are the changes I see to your assumptions.

Outside of your assumptions, maybe we cut a linemen depth guy like Studdard. Someone else pointed out that we could cut some defensive depth too like on the line there.

Best point I've read so far is that not even Smithiak knows for sure at this point.

J. Sean Wonton
06-22-2009, 03:42 PM
I view JJ's big play ability on punt returns as a lot more valuable than others I guess, the Texans were 3rd in the league in punt return avg., so essentially JJ is one of the best at returning punts....we've all seen that ability and we've seen the turnovers too so you hope you see improvement there...I think the staff still sees a receiver in him and if you can get him to perform as one of the best players in the league in returning punts in the mean time while he develops then they'll stick with him longer

JJ's about the third "amazing" returner we've had in a row. Surprisingly, I don't think it carries a lot of weight, and I'm not seeing him as a receiver in this league. I also think his time for potential expires this offseason. He has to show a lot right now. Smithiak is drafting for versatility. They don't want a LS only guy on the roster, and they don't want a PR only guy on the roster either.

badboy
06-22-2009, 03:59 PM
JJ's about the third "amazing" returner we've had in a row. Surprisingly, I don't think it carries a lot of weight, and I'm not seeing him as a receiver in this league. I also think his time for potential expires this offseason. He has to show a lot right now. Smithiak is drafting for versatility. They don't want a LS only guy on the roster, and they don't want a PR only guy on the roster either.Don't know if CB Brice McCain has ball handling skills but his 4.33 is fast.

JCTexan
06-22-2009, 04:02 PM
I view JJ's big play ability on punt returns as a lot more valuable than others I guess, the Texans were 3rd in the league in punt return avg., so essentially JJ is one of the best at returning punts....we've all seen that ability and we've seen the turnovers too so you hope you see improvement there...I think the staff still sees a receiver in him and if you can get him to perform as one of the best players in the league in returning punts in the mean time while he develops then they'll stick with him longer

Don't get me wrong: I like JJ's big play ability. There is better competition to make the roster this year for the Texans then there has ever been, though. I don't see JJ having to make a huge step backwards to get cut. If he just doesn't show any WR ability and still shows his lack of ball control he could easily get cut from the Texans this year. The only reason I mentioned Casey is because of his versatility. He can play WR if the Texans need him to, thus giving them the option of keeping 4 WR's and using JC as the fifth if need be.

spurstexanstros
06-22-2009, 05:05 PM
So I think we've all been wondering how the Texans are going to carry Owen Daniels, Joel Dreesen, Anthony Hill and James Casey on the same roster without having to carry "4 tight ends"

Meaning---JC will be snuck on the roster in some other role (long snapper, receiver, backup fullback, I've even heard 3rd quarterback)

My question is what happens if:

Grigsby proves worthy of the backup fullback job via special teams play and ability to fill in for Leach on the offense

Assume the WR situation holds true and the same 5 from last year make it obviously (JJ the 5th)

Assume JC isn't the long snapper (I don't think he's even getting reps there right now)

Will they have to carry 4 TE's on game day?? It's looking like that is a great possibility...what position will lose a spot now because of this?

hmmm maybe we should have drafted a rb in the 4th...just maybe

GP
06-22-2009, 05:26 PM
So I think we've all been wondering how the Texans are going to carry Owen Daniels, Joel Dreesen, Anthony Hill and James Casey on the same roster without having to carry "4 tight ends"

Meaning---JC will be snuck on the roster in some other role (long snapper, receiver, backup fullback, I've even heard 3rd quarterback)

My question is what happens if:

Grigsby proves worthy of the backup fullback job via special teams play and ability to fill in for Leach on the offense

Assume the WR situation holds true and the same 5 from last year make it obviously (JJ the 5th)

Assume JC isn't the long snapper (I don't think he's even getting reps there right now)

Will they have to carry 4 TE's on game day?? It's looking like that is a great possibility...what position will lose a spot now because of this?

Casey will make the active roster. There's no way he'd clear waivers and make it to our practice squad. Getting time at LS is a possible indicator that the hope is for Casey to be on the roster as a utility guy who brings flexibility without occupying just a single position. I like the move, personally.

There's no way Jacoby Jones get "cut" because he has trade value. What the exact value is, I don't know, but he's trade bait as far as I'm concerned and I bet he's on borrowed time with this bunch of Texans around him. I mean, seriously: There's always some genius GM and HC out there who thinks they can salvage a talented misfit like JJ.

I wonder if they try to sneak Anthony Hill to the practice squad?

JB
06-22-2009, 07:38 PM
Casey will make the active roster. There's no way he'd clear waivers and make it to our practice squad. Getting time at LS is a possible indicator that the hope is for Casey to be on the roster as a utility guy who brings flexibility without occupying just a single position. I like the move, personally.

There's no way Jacoby Jones get "cut" because he has trade value. What the exact value is, I don't know, but he's trade bait as far as I'm concerned and I bet he's on borrowed time with this bunch of Texans around him. I mean, seriously: There's always some genius GM and HC out there who thinks they can salvage a talented misfit like JJ.

I wonder if they try to sneak Anthony Hill to the practice squad?


NO Way! They are counting on Hill and his blocking ability, especiallly against the 3-4 teams.

I believe that they will carry 4 TE's. They may only have 3 active on some Sunday's, but that will largely depend on the type of TC that JC has and how well the other ST players pan out.

dalemurphy
06-22-2009, 07:41 PM
NO Way! They are counting on Hill and his blocking ability, especiallly against the 3-4 teams.

I believe that they will carry 4 TE's. They may only have 3 active on some Sunday's, but that will largely depend on the type of TC that JC has and how well the other ST players pan out.

the problem is that if C. Harris remains the long-snapper, we'll actually be carrying 5 TEs. While still a possibility, that is going to be difficult to do.

Mr PC
06-25-2009, 11:45 AM
this will be Owen Daniels last season as a Texan.

m5kwatts
06-25-2009, 11:56 AM
this will be Owen Daniels last season as a Texan.

based on what?

Mr PC
06-25-2009, 12:13 PM
based on what?

1) OD wants a contract on the level of Kellen Winslow ($36 million)

2) The Texans are overcrowded at the TE position

3) ever watched James Casey play at Rice?


i love OD but its not fiscally responsible for the Texans to shell out that much money on the TE position considering they have good depth without him. The acquisitions of Hill and Casey mean that OD will have to look for his big payday elsewhere.

m5kwatts
06-25-2009, 12:39 PM
1) OD wants a contract on the level of Kellen Winslow ($36 million)

2) The Texans are overcrowded at the TE position

3) ever watched James Casey play at Rice?


i love OD but its not fiscally responsible for the Texans to shell out that much money on the TE position considering they have good depth without him. The acquisitions of Hill and Casey mean that OD will have to look for his big payday elsewhere.

1-the Texans have made it clear OD is a building block here, someone they wanna keep around, they've indicated wanting to get an extension done and just because they didnt drop everything when ODs agent whined and pouted about wanting a deal doesn't mean theyre ready to move on from OD

2-overcrowded is one way to look at it---but we only have 2 TE's who've played in the NFL and only one whose had any kind of success catching the football for big time yards...i dont know about you but id feel very uncomfortable without OD on 3rd downs (or any down for that matter) going into this season

3-yes but casey is still a rookie...he hasn't been known to block ever and nfl defenses are faster than conference usa defenses

I think it would be fiscally responsible for the texans to lock OD up long term because TE is a safe position to do that with... and when you find one whose as good as OD then you keep them around

Mr PC
06-25-2009, 12:51 PM
In a passing situation, usually there is only one TE on the field. Typically there might be about 5 passes thrown to the TE all game. Does not make sense to shell out mega millions on that position when you already have guys that can play it. OD is one of my favorite players on the team, but i dont expect him to be a Texan next year. in a couple years, Casey will have made people forget about OD though. Im not worried about his blocking at all, dude is just as big as OD if not bigger. Only reason he didnt block at Rice is because he was too busy scoring touchdowns.

m5kwatts
06-25-2009, 04:41 PM
In a passing situation, usually there is only one TE on the field. Typically there might be about 5 passes thrown to the TE all game. Does not make sense to shell out mega millions on that position when you already have guys that can play it. OD is one of my favorite players on the team, but i dont expect him to be a Texan next year. in a couple years, Casey will have made people forget about OD though. Im not worried about his blocking at all, dude is just as big as OD if not bigger. Only reason he didnt block at Rice is because he was too busy scoring touchdowns.

huh? OD went for 800+ yards, we were throwing at him more than 5 times a game? he's a big piece of that offense, that can't be argued....you don't expect him to be a Texan next year? do you know something we don't? think before you post. and if you're not worried about casey's blocking then you don't know anything about an nfl offense...no one will believe our play-action plays with casey on the field if he cant block...and like i said its conference usa vs. the nfl's defenses, casey hasn't done anything yet

Mr PC
06-25-2009, 06:21 PM
huh? OD went for 800+ yards, we were throwing at him more than 5 times a game?

Daniels had 70 receptions in 16 starts, which averages out to slightly less than 4.4 catches per game.

he's a big piece of that offense, that can't be argued....you don't expect him to be a Texan next year? do you know something we don't? think before you post. and if you're not worried about casey's blocking then you don't know anything about an nfl offense...no one will believe our play-action plays with casey on the field if he cant block...and like i said its conference usa vs. the nfl's defenses, casey hasn't done anything yet

Casey is capable of blocking every bit as well as Daniels, he is not undersized nor does he lack physicality or athletic ability. The only reason he didnt block for Rice is because on running plays he was talking the handoffs and on passing plays he was catching the passes. and the Texans already have their blocking specialist in Hill. i guess we can look back in a year and see who was right, but ill say right now that it doesnt look promising for the Texans to keep OD past 2009.

J. Sean Wonton
06-25-2009, 06:47 PM
1-the Texans have made it clear OD is a building block here, someone they wanna keep around, they've indicated wanting to get an extension done and just because they didnt drop everything when ODs agent whined and pouted about wanting a deal doesn't mean theyre ready to move on from OD

2-overcrowded is one way to look at it---but we only have 2 TE's who've played in the NFL and only one whose had any kind of success catching the football for big time yards...i dont know about you but id feel very uncomfortable without OD on 3rd downs (or any down for that matter) going into this season

3-yes but casey is still a rookie...he hasn't been known to block ever and nfl defenses are faster than conference usa defenses

I think it would be fiscally responsible for the texans to lock OD up long term because TE is a safe position to do that with... and when you find one whose as good as OD then you keep them around

I think all of your points are good, and I'd love for the Texans to keep OD for many years to come. However, as Mr. PC is pointing out, OD might just make himself too expensive. Without OD, there are other people that could step up and fill in and be successful including other positions. I think OD has played well and deserves good money. I think the Texans will offer it to him. But if he wants Winslow money, it ain't gonna and shouldn't happen.

dc_txtech
06-25-2009, 08:39 PM
I think all of your points are good, and I'd love for the Texans to keep OD for many years to come. However, as Mr. PC is pointing out, OD might just make himself too expensive. Without OD, there are other people that could step up and fill in and be successful including other positions. I think OD has played well and deserves good money. I think the Texans will offer it to him. But if he wants Winslow money, it ain't gonna and shouldn't happen.

These are pretty much my sentiments on the whole situation. I don't think there is a single guy on the boards, save Blazing Arrow, who doesn't want OD on this team. The fact of the matter is that we are playing in the age of salary cap and every player has their value. If OD wants more than what the FO thinks he's worth, then he will be gone, plain and simple.

We've got the guy under contract for another year giving us a season to work the rooks and see what they can do. Daniels was a beast in his second season, whose to say one of these rookies can't step up and fill in for him in 2010?

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong (which I might very well be) but won't OD be a RFA next season. Meaning even if we never sign him to a deal we still have the option to match another teams offer?

Actually that sounds wrong as I type it out. Could anyone clarify that for me?

The Pencil Neck
06-26-2009, 09:51 AM
These are pretty much my sentiments on the whole situation. I don't think there is a single guy on the boards, save Blazing Arrow, who doesn't want OD on this team. The fact of the matter is that we are playing in the age of salary cap and every player has their value. If OD wants more than what the FO thinks he's worth, then he will be gone, plain and simple.

We've got the guy under contract for another year giving us a season to work the rooks and see what they can do. Daniels was a beast in his second season, whose to say one of these rookies can't step up and fill in for him in 2010?

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong (which I might very well be) but won't OD be a RFA next season. Meaning even if we never sign him to a deal we still have the option to match another teams offer?

Actually that sounds wrong as I type it out. Could anyone clarify that for me?

Here's my understanding, which could be wrong...

He's an RFA THIS year. We put the highest possible tender on him. Nobody made an offer because the compensation would have been very high.

However, next year, it's about the end of the CBA. And the rules change. He'll still be an RFA next year because of that. So he really needs to get his long term deal done.

badboy
06-26-2009, 11:11 AM
Sound thing to do with OD as is happening with DR is to say "We like you and here is a reasonable deal. Take it or we take it year by year until we sign you to a longer deal or we have a replacement for you." Neither player was low balled by Smith.