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Phil03
06-15-2009, 07:01 AM
Hey guys,
I wrote an analysis of the Texans offensive line as I did last year for my website: http://www.ultimateffstrategy.com/2009_OLine/houston_texans.htm

Feel free to post any comments, suggestions or corrections I should make to my article.

Thanks,
Phil

badboy
06-15-2009, 02:07 PM
Enjoyed the read. It would have been nice if you had mentioned that we gave only a 6th for Myers. I still like getting a starter for a low pick. I think we may be in a can't miss scenario with O line. If Caldwell can not beat out Myers we should be good to go at center. If Caldwell is the starter, Myers projects to guard where he should beat out Briesel. All in all, line should be pretty good. Just looking for a power back.

utahmark
06-15-2009, 02:07 PM
nice article

Hardcore Texan
06-15-2009, 02:13 PM
I enjoyed reading it, and now I am all excited about football......damn offseason!

HOU-TEX
06-15-2009, 02:21 PM
I enjoyed reading it, and now I am all excited about football......damn offseason!

Pfft! Just wait, it's going to get worse, HT. From this Wednesday's final practice to training camp is the worst part about the off-season. There will not be any OTA's to chomp on, most (if not all) of the players will leave the facilities and there will not be any news or videos on HT.com to get a temporary fix. It will suck!

Phil03
06-15-2009, 02:21 PM
Enjoyed the read. It would have been nice if you had mentioned that we gave only a 6th for Myers. I still like getting a starter for a low pick. I think we may be in a can't miss scenario with O line. If Caldwell can not beat out Myers we should be good to go at center. If Caldwell is the starter, Myers projects to guard where he should beat out Briesel. All in all, line should be pretty good. Just looking for a power back.

Thanks guys, I just threw that in there for you. I didn't know it was only a 6th round pick but definitely a nice trade.

Spike
06-15-2009, 04:17 PM
Enjoyed the read. It would have been nice if you had mentioned that we gave only a 6th for Myers. I still like getting a starter for a low pick. I think we may be in a can't miss scenario with O line. If Caldwell can not beat out Myers we should be good to go at center. If Caldwell is the starter, Myers projects to guard where he should beat out Briesel. All in all, line should be pretty good. Just looking for a power back.

Agreed. Myers isn't the best center in the league, but our offense can move the ball with the existing peices on the line. Arguably, Myers (as well as the unit as a whole) will be improved with another year in the system, working together as a unit. After all, last year was the first year that a "pure" ZBS was implemented.

In the even that Caldwell can beat Myers out, I do think he pushes Briesel. Either way, we should have a competent back-up at both the guard and center positions.

threetoedpete
06-16-2009, 12:52 AM
Agreed. Myers isn't the best center in the league, but our offense can move the ball with the existing peices on the line. Arguably, Myers (as well as the unit as a whole) will be improved with another year in the system, working together as a unit. After all, last year was the first year that a "pure" ZBS was implemented.

In the even that Caldwell can beat Myers out, I do think he pushes Briesel. Either way, we should have a competent back-up at both the guard and center positions.

Unless Myers breaks a leg or something, It's going to be pretty hard for Caldwell to over take him. Myers is everything they want in a center between the twenties. This group made a huge leap with their down the field blocking last year. If they can improve on their mental mistakes and start to show some signs of maturing as a unit and take over games, the sky is the limit for this group. Brown not facing several of the leagues premiere pass rushers starting out the season has got to help.

ObsiWan
06-16-2009, 01:51 AM
The O-line should be even more productive this season.

- D. Brown has a year under his belt and knew to come into camp in NFL shape.
- Winston is a proud dude and if you listened to some of his interviews and radio chats, you know he ain't happy about those sacks and mental mistakes he, himself, said he made.
- I'm not a big Myers fan, but I'll take 3TP's take on it because he studies the O-line harder than most. If he says Myers is "it" at center, I'll pencil him in ....for now. But down deep, I'm hoping that both Myers and Briesel can feel Caldwell's hot breath on their necks as he works to be a starter. I'm thinkin' a two-year team captain and 3-yr starter at Alabama won't be content to be an NFL backup. He'll push somebody for their job. Hard.

I'm okay with the starters. It's the backups that are question marks, IMO. Studdard has the right attitude for a guard but he's been gimpy off and on since he's been here. He saw no action last year. And I don't even recall that Butler was active last season either. Both are pretty much still unproven. I understand that their inactivity in 2008 was because we were very lucky and the same unit started every game, but for them not to get ANY action - say in mop up when we killed Cincy - makes me wonder how ready they'll be if we really need them.

here's hoping for less than 25 sacks and 2000+ yds from our running attack!
:kingkong:

HOU-TEX
06-16-2009, 10:13 AM
Unless Myers breaks a leg or something, It's going to be pretty hard for Caldwell to over take him. Myers is everything they want in a center between the twenties. This group made a huge leap with their down the field blocking last year. If they can improve on their mental mistakes and start to show some signs of maturing as a unit and take over games, the sky is the limit for this group. Brown not facing several of the leagues premiere pass rushers starting out the season has got to help.

IMO, Myers is the weakest link of our redzone offense. I watched a little of the MNF game against J-ville last night. It was after Slaton took a screen pass 46 yards down to their 1-2 yard line. I keyed on a couple players with Myers being one of them. He was blown up all 3 running plays to the right side. On third down he was jacked up so bad Slaton ran into him 2 yards behind the LOS ending with his guy making the tackle for -1. We ended up kicking a FG. 3 freakin plays that totalled -1 yard!

If he has not gotten stronger at the point of attack, I expect him to be no different than last year. I hope he has improved for the team's sake. If not, we need somebody that can improve the performance of that position. Caldwell, White or Joe Blow, I don't care. As long as we get better at the position.

:texflag:

beerlover
06-16-2009, 01:30 PM
Summary seems resonable to me -
2009 Outlook:
The Houston Texans impressed many people last year by having the third-ranked offense in the NFL and this offensive line certainly played a big role in that. All five linemen managed to stay healthy and they improved as a group throughout the season as they allowed only 12 sacks in the final eight games of the season. With one more off-season to work with Alex Gibbs, this line should improve as a unit in 2009 and be above average in both run blocking and pass protection but they will need to stay healthy as they did in 2008 since they donít have any proven backups.

I do question if Pitts will improve much I think he could be in decline & a little less athletic, set in his ways for Gibbs to ply much more out of him. Everybody talks about Meyers but his work ethic along with Brisel where something missing from previous Texans OL units. Winston & Brown where both somewhat dissapointing, expect them both to improve & seal the edge better so Caldwell provides the biggest opportunity for improvement if not sooner than later as Pitts heads towards his next contract.

My 2010 prediction is that the Texans OL will look like this-

LT Duane Brown
LG Antoine Caldwell
C Chris Meyers
RG Mike Brisiel
RT Eric Winston

The Pencil Neck
06-16-2009, 01:31 PM
Summary seems resonable to me -


I do question if Pitts will improve much I think he could be in decline & a little less athletic, set in his ways for Gibbs to ply much more out of him. Everybody talks about Meyers but his work ethic along with Brisel where something missing from previous Texans OL units. Winston & Brown where both somewhat dissapointing, expect them both to improve & seal the edge better so Caldwell provides the biggest opportunity for improvement if not sooner than later as Pitts heads towards his next contract.

My 2010 prediction is that the Texans OL will look like this-

LT Duane Brown
LG Antoine Caldwell
C Chris Meyers
RG Mike Brisiel
RT Eric Winston


That's a new twist. I hadn't looked at it like that before. Good post.

TimeKiller
06-16-2009, 01:53 PM
Summary seems resonable to me -


I do question if Pitts will improve much I think he could be in decline & a little less athletic, set in his ways for Gibbs to ply much more out of him. Everybody talks about Meyers but his work ethic along with Brisel where something missing from previous Texans OL units. Winston & Brown where both somewhat dissapointing, expect them both to improve & seal the edge better so Caldwell provides the biggest opportunity for improvement if not sooner than later as Pitts heads towards his next contract.

My 2010 prediction is that the Texans OL will look like this-

LT Duane Brown
LG Antoine Caldwell
C Chris Meyers
RG Mike Brisiel
RT Eric Winston


You don't think Big Bob is going to keep one of the last original Texans (one of the last because he's one of the best) around for as long as possible? Pitts is a decent lineman and certainly won't be the first guy replaced out of the starting 5 from last year.

Where is all this Meyers love coming from lately? Meyers' work ethic? COME ON the guy was clearly the weakest link of the whole offense last year, not just the line. If he wasn't busting his hump there would be little reason to even give him a roster spot. Caldwell provides good swing depth at this point but quit kidding yourself, he's a C. Played C in college very succesfully, drafted as one too. I'd say he's blowing ONE hole open from taking Meyers spot because ONE hole a year would be an upgrade to Meyers.

Kaiser Toro
06-16-2009, 01:58 PM
My 2010 prediction is that the Texans OL will look like this-

LT Duane Brown
LG Antoine Caldwell
C Chris Meyers
RG Mike Brisiel
RT Eric Winston


It is plausible. Should Brown not progress, and we re-sign Pitts (which we should) I would have no problem with:
LT Chester Pitts
LG Antoine Caldwell
C Chris Meyers
RG Eric Winston
RT Duane Brown

badboy
06-16-2009, 02:05 PM
Unless Myers breaks a leg or something, It's going to be pretty hard for Caldwell to over take him. Myers is everything they want in a center between the twenties. This group made a huge leap with their down the field blocking last year. If they can improve on their mental mistakes and start to show some signs of maturing as a unit and take over games, the sky is the limit for this group. Brown not facing several of the leagues premiere pass rushers starting out the season has got to help.Do you see Caldwell coming in within the red zone to push the defense back? I may be way too optimistic but I see us chewing up more yards within the 20s this season. I think Slaton will not be our only bright spot in a speed back role. Now if Foster can be the power guy? Oh yeah!

badboy
06-16-2009, 02:16 PM
The O-line should be even more productive this season.

- D. Brown has a year under his belt and knew to come into camp in NFL shape.
- Winston is a proud dude and if you listened to some of his interviews and radio chats, you know he ain't happy about those sacks and mental mistakes he, himself, said he made.
- I'm not a big Myers fan, but I'll take 3TP's take on it because he studies the O-line harder than most. If he says Myers is "it" at center, I'll pencil him in ....for now. But down deep, I'm hoping that both Myers and Briesel can feel Caldwell's hot breath on their necks as he works to be a starter. I'm thinkin' a two-year team captain and 3-yr starter at Alabama won't be content to be an NFL backup. He'll push somebody for their job. Hard.

I'm okay with the starters. It's the backups that are question marks, IMO. Studdard has the right attitude for a guard but he's been gimpy off and on since he's been here. He saw no action last year. And I don't even recall that Butler was active last season either. Both are pretty much still unproven. I understand that their inactivity in 2008 was because we were very lucky and the same unit started every game, but for them not to get ANY action - say in mop up when we killed Cincy - makes me wonder how ready they'll be if we really need them.

here's hoping for less than 25 sacks and 2000+ yds from our running attack!
:kingkong:Studdard and Butler may not be on team next year. Remember Caldwell can play all 5 positions & if we have another healthy year for Oline, he may be all we need. The next draft will probably address back ups at several positions or offer a starter type like Cushing who will move a starter to a strong back up role. I am excited every year but I have more confidence we are moving into a very solid role as a strong team.

badboy
06-16-2009, 02:21 PM
It is plausible. Should Brown not progress, and we re-sign Pitts (which we should) I would have no problem with:
LT Chester Pitts
LG Antoine Caldwell
C Chris Meyers
RG Eric Winston
RT Duane BrownAfter all we have been thru since Pitts was moved to guard, why would team move Pitts back to LT? Not arguing as I think he is a solid LT but just saying.

Kaiser Toro
06-16-2009, 02:22 PM
After all we have been thru since Pitts was moved to guard, why would team move Pitts back to LT? Not arguing as I think he is a solid LT but just saying.

Exactly, we are just saying. I would love for our current unit to remain healthy and continue to progress, but I love to play the what if game as well. :)

Goldensilence
06-16-2009, 02:34 PM
Summary seems resonable to me -


I do question if Pitts will improve much I think he could be in decline & a little less athletic, set in his ways for Gibbs to ply much more out of him. Everybody talks about Meyers but his work ethic along with Brisel where something missing from previous Texans OL units. Winston & Brown where both somewhat dissapointing, expect them both to improve & seal the edge better so Caldwell provides the biggest opportunity for improvement if not sooner than later as Pitts heads towards his next contract.

My 2010 prediction is that the Texans OL will look like this-

LT Duane Brown
LG Antoine Caldwell
C Chris Meyers
RG Mike Brisiel
RT Eric Winston


Usually agree with your OL take but I gotta disagree with you on this one. I think we'll resign Pitts and it's possible he has a pro bowl type of year this season. I'm ok with Brisiel but, I think Myers becomes a weak link inside the 20's. He becomes weak at the point of attack and doesn't get enough push.

People might want to imagine that getting this mythical "power back" is going to solve the redzone woes, when I don't think it'll be that simple. I think Hill might be a big part of solidifying one side inside the 20's but, it all comes down the the center of the line gettinga push. Unless Myers gets stronger at the point of attack in the off-season I think his days are limited as a starter. Which is fine because he'll be a VERY valued backup for the team. Not sure Caldwell is a day one ready center like Mack or possibly Eric Wood but, I think he'll be breathing down Myers neck come TC and pre-season. Caldwell, graduating in three years, obviously also has the smarts to play OL QB. He's by the pick I'm most excited about this year.

badboy
06-16-2009, 02:50 PM
Usually agree with your OL take but I gotta disagree with you on this one. I think we'll resign Pitts and it's possible he has a pro bowl type of year this season. I'm ok with Brisiel but, I think Myers becomes a weak link inside the 20's. He becomes weak at the point of attack and doesn't get enough push.

People might want to imagine that getting this mythical "power back" is going to solve the redzone woes, when I don't think it'll be that simple. I think Hill might be a big part of solidifying one side inside the 20's but, it all comes down the the center of the line gettinga push. Unless Myers gets stronger at the point of attack in the off-season I think his days are limited as a starter. Which is fine because he'll be a VERY valued backup for the team. Not sure Caldwell is a day one ready center like Mack or possibly Eric Wood but, I think he'll be breathing down Myers neck come TC and pre-season. Caldwell, graduating in three years, obviously also has the smarts to play OL QB. He's by the pick I'm most excited about this year.Do our goal line plays have to send the back over the center?

Goldensilence
06-16-2009, 03:17 PM
Do our goal line plays have to send the back over the center?

No, but if the center is pushed back or can't hold his gap then it makes it difficult for a play to develop, passing or running.

76Texan
06-16-2009, 03:54 PM
IMO, Myers is the weakest link of our redzone offense. I watched a little of the MNF game against J-ville last night. It was after Slaton took a screen pass 46 yards down to their 1-2 yard line. I keyed on a couple players with Myers being one of them. He was blown up all 3 running plays to the right side. On third down he was jacked up so bad Slaton ran into him 2 yards behind the LOS ending with his guy making the tackle for -1. We ended up kicking a FG. 3 freakin plays that totalled -1 yard!

If he has not gotten stronger at the point of attack, I expect him to be no different than last year. I hope he has improved for the team's sake. If not, we need somebody that can improve the performance of that position. Caldwell, White or Joe Blow, I don't care. As long as we get better at the position.

:texflag:It's worth to note that, on those 3 plays, Myers went against a 9-yr veteran Mier.
Brisiel went against a guy who only 3 starts were last year (due to injury to the starter.)

First play.
Myers threw a cut block. Not a good one, but passable.
Brisiel did a fine job, except he could stay inside a bit more. This would help both Myers and Winston.
Winston should have done a better job boxing McDaniel inside toward Mier, before releasing.
This would neutralize both Mier and McDaniel.
O.D. got pushed back. Leach ran into this roadblock.
This was where the play blew up.
Slaton should have bounced outside (the only slight chance.)

Second play.
Almost a repeat.
Except this time, Leach was able to go between O.D. and Brisiel, but did not block anybody.
The result was worse, 'cause Mier lined up outside, away from Myers.
Brisiel and Winston did the same thing.
Slaton had a little better chance bouncing outside, but he didn't.

Third play.
Pretty much same play called.
Mier had a good jump, and Myers couldn't get into his block.
There was just too much spacing between Myers and Brisiel.
Slaton definitely should have bounced outside.
He had a great chance for a TD there.

They were all designed plays.
The problems were rather with the whole right side, more than with any single player.
It was more crucial for Winston to make sure that the LOS is secured before releasing.
It's better for Brisiel to stay closer to Myers.
O.D. and Leach both can do a better job blocking.
Was Slaton allowed to bounce outside or not???

I don't know if this is the stubborness in Kubiak or not,
to run 3 plays pretty much exactly the same.

Also, does a cut block have anything to do with the strength at the point of attack?
The third play may not call for a cut block, but it was possible that due to Mier's jump, our Myers couldn't get down into the block, and was blown up.

76Texan
06-16-2009, 04:01 PM
Unless Myers breaks a leg or something, It's going to be pretty hard for Caldwell to over take him. Myers is everything they want in a center between the twenties. This group made a huge leap with their down the field blocking last year. If they can improve on their mental mistakes and start to show some signs of maturing as a unit and take over games, the sky is the limit for this group. Brown not facing several of the leagues premiere pass rushers starting out the season has got to help.

It's my contention that Brisiel was the weak link in the O-line last year.
But the whole line was learning to play together and progressing.

Adrian Jones has a better chance of replacing Brisiel than Caldwell, IMO.
(Remember, the Chiefs were running the ZBS last year as well.)
But of course, they drafted a guy in the third round, it figures they would give him opportunities to join the line-up.

Ckw
06-16-2009, 04:07 PM
IMO, Myers is the weakest link of our redzone offense. I watched a little of the MNF game against J-ville last night. It was after Slaton took a screen pass 46 yards down to their 1-2 yard line. I keyed on a couple players with Myers being one of them. He was blown up all 3 running plays to the right side. On third down he was jacked up so bad Slaton ran into him 2 yards behind the LOS ending with his guy making the tackle for -1. We ended up kicking a FG. 3 freakin plays that totalled -1 yard!

If he has not gotten stronger at the point of attack, I expect him to be no different than last year. I hope he has improved for the team's sake. If not, we need somebody that can improve the performance of that position. Caldwell, White or Joe Blow, I don't care. As long as we get better at the position.

:texflag:

Exactly! I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one not drinking the Myers kool-aid. He is not bad, but the guy got jacked up a ton in short yardage situations. Honestly, I believe he was the source last year for our red zone woes; we just could not get a push up front, and Slaton isn't the type of RB that can just pound it through despite a weak line.

badboy
06-16-2009, 04:16 PM
Exactly! I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one not drinking the Myers kool-aid. He is not bad, but the guy got jacked up a ton in short yardage situations. Honestly, I believe he was the source last year for our red zone woes; we just could not get a push up front, and Slaton isn't the type of RB that can just pound it through despite a weak line.
And that is exactly why we drafted a big old RB in the 4th round to replace Slaton in goal line situations.

Vinny
06-16-2009, 04:49 PM
Hey guys,
I wrote an analysis of the Texans offensive line as I did last year for my website: http://www.ultimateffstrategy.com/2009_OLine/houston_texans.htm

Feel free to post any comments, suggestions or corrections I should make to my article.

Thanks,
Phil
I think I was the one who corrected your take on Chester Pitts last season. I'd like to add that he was a Pro Bowl alternate this last season. D Brown struggled last year because he was out of shape. He was taken in and out of the line up because he was too winded....often. Winston struggled badly in his run blocking, especially to his left. In the zbs he is required to cut the end slanting in and taking out the cutback lane but if you look at game film Winston does a poor job of blocking going to his left, getting under the pads of the ends and Tackles when moving left. Briesel is a pretty good second level blocker. I don't think Meyers keeps the starter job long.

Goldensilence
06-16-2009, 05:05 PM
[/U]
And that is exactly why we drafted a big old RB in the 4th round to replace Slaton in goal line situations.

uhh who?

dalemurphy
06-16-2009, 05:46 PM
I think I was the one who corrected your take on Chester Pitts last season. I'd like to add that he was a Pro Bowl alternate this last season. D Brown struggled last year because he was out of shape. He was taken in and out of the line up because he was too winded....often. Winston struggled badly in his run blocking, especially to his left. In the zbs he is required to cut the end slanting in and taking out the cutback lane but if you look at game film Winston does a poor job of blocking going to his left, getting under the pads of the ends and Tackles when moving left. Briesel is a pretty good second level blocker. I don't think Meyers keeps the starter job long.

Vinny,

I agree with your assessment. I will say though, that Myers is the best center we've had since McKinney's solid 2-3 games right before he blew out his ACL against Indy.

Regarding Pitts (this isn't a criticism), have you noticed that he doesn't cut on the backside. He'll cross the body at the second level but he seems determined not to cut the man down. Have you heard if he has an ethical issue with it?

76Texan
06-16-2009, 05:58 PM
Vinny,

I agree with your assessment. I will say though, that Myers is the best center we've had since McKinney's solid 2-3 games right before he blew out his ACL against Indy.

Regarding Pitts (this isn't a criticism), have you noticed that he doesn't cut on the backside. He'll cross the body at the second level but he seems determined not to cut the man down. Have you heard if he has an ethical issue with it?
To me, the last 8 games are more important.
And I'm still in the process of breaking down the individual plays.

Through the 3 games (Viking, Ravens, and Colts) I have these grades:
Myers (71.67) for a low B-
Pitts (70.17) barely low B-
Brown (60.33) barely a C (total points dividing by number of plays involved.)
Winston (59.00) not quite a C
Brisiel (56.67), a marginal C-

Note: Brown may benefit from not having to play every series.
It's a very crude scoring system that I kept tinker with.
Myers and Brisiel may benefit being in double team a tad more.
But then Winston had the TE on his side more than Brown.
I may have been too harsh overall.
I may have missed a play here and there.
The scoring of the first two games was more "mistake-slanted" (why Winston and Brisiel got lower scores.)
I may have been biased! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Vinny
06-17-2009, 01:28 AM
Vinny,

I agree with your assessment. I will say though, that Myers is the best center we've had since McKinney's solid 2-3 games right before he blew out his ACL against Indy.

Regarding Pitts (this isn't a criticism), have you noticed that he doesn't cut on the backside. He'll cross the body at the second level but he seems determined not to cut the man down. Have you heard if he has an ethical issue with it?
i'd have to start looking for this, but if you get the block it doesn't matter if the guy is on the ground or not most of the time. As far as I know, Chester doesn't have a problem with any of the legal blocks they are coaching.

I thought Myers played much better as the year progressed. He was pushed around early in the year and I didn't notice guys moving him around at all later in the season. I'd say he played well all through the second half of the season.

Jackie Chiles
06-17-2009, 02:02 AM
i'd have to start looking for this, but if you get the block it doesn't matter if the guy is on the ground or not most of the time. As far as I know, Chester doesn't have a problem with any of the legal blocks they are coaching.

Putting a block on someone without them going to the ground probably doesn't have any effect on that play but over the course of a game/season, as long as we are going to employ the ZBS under Gibbs, I would prefer if Pitts put the defender on his back. Make them spend that extra bit of energy getting up after the play, make the defender aware that he could go down at any time, some guys will back off. I mean if we are going to do this thing we might as well go all out on it. I know Chester is a nice guy but I hope he isn't holding anything back in the games. For the record I love Chester's game, attitude and consistency so hopefully this isn't the case.

Vinny
06-17-2009, 02:07 AM
Putting a block on someone without them going to the ground probably doesn't have any effect on that play but over the course of a game/season, as long as we are going to employ the ZBS under Gibbs, I would prefer if Pitts put the defender on his back. Make them spend that extra bit of energy getting up after the play, make the defender aware that he could go down at any time, some guys will back off. I mean if we are going to do this thing we might as well go all out on it. I know Chester is a nice guy but I hope he isn't holding anything back in the games. For the record I love Chester's game, attitude and consistency so hopefully this isn't the case.cutting a guy may make the cutter more tired than the cuttee....if you have ever rolled into a 300+ pound man of course...just sayin'

Why does everyone try so hard to find faults in Pitts all the time? I mean, just reaching for stuff usually. For the life of me I just don't understand this. It's not as bad as it used to be though...so I'll give you that much.

beerlover
06-17-2009, 04:59 AM
Phil03 did a nice summary on the state of the Texans Offensive Line.

Call it lack of accountability on my part if you will but I would just like to back-up my statements with this one little important detail- Alex Gibbs hand picked Duane Brown & Antoine Caldwell in the draft 1st & 3rd rds. that bears some weight. Also he approved aquiring Center Chris Myers who started all 16 games to trigger his line, in a trade for a 6th rd. pick enter Mike Brisiel who took Gibbs assingments to heart, improved & did work his butt off to do it, typical of the lineman who have played for him in the past.

Phil03
06-17-2009, 06:07 AM
I see I started a nice little discussion here. When I was writing my article there was something I was wondering: were Brown and Winston as bad in pass protection as their sacks allowed totals indicate or was it more a case of Myers (or Brisiel or Pitts) getting pushed back, Schaub having to move around and eventually getting sacked by Brown or Winston's man?
I have a hard time believing that the 2 tackles allowed 19.5 sacks and the three inside men allowed only 4.5

Insideop
06-17-2009, 07:04 AM
I see I started a nice little discussion here. When I was writing my article there was something I was wondering: were Brown and Winston as bad in pass protection as their sacks allowed totals indicate or was it more a case of Myers (or Brisiel or Pitts) getting pushed back, Schaub having to move around and eventually getting sacked by Brown or Winston's man?
I have a hard time believing that the 2 tackles allowed 19.5 sacks and the three inside men allowed only 4.5

I can understand Brown giving up 11.5 sacks during his rookie year, especially with the players he went up against in the 1st half, but what really puzzles me is Winston giving up 8 sacks. Does anyone have the breakdown for the number of sacks allowed over the 2nd half of the season for Brown and Winston? I know Brown allowed fewer sacks during the 2nd half of the season but what about Winston? Was he playing better in the 2nd half or were his sacks evenly spread throughout the season?

I fully expect Brown to cut his sacks in half or better this season due in part to his improvement over the 2nd half of last season. But I'm not sure about the "Caveman?" Was last year a fluke? :thinking: I hope so.

The Pencil Neck
06-17-2009, 10:14 AM
I see I started a nice little discussion here. When I was writing my article there was something I was wondering: were Brown and Winston as bad in pass protection as their sacks allowed totals indicate or was it more a case of Myers (or Brisiel or Pitts) getting pushed back, Schaub having to move around and eventually getting sacked by Brown or Winston's man?
I have a hard time believing that the 2 tackles allowed 19.5 sacks and the three inside men allowed only 4.5

In pass protection, Myers had a weird tendency to get pushed back into the QB's face but then suck it up and stop his guy from going any further. I think that led to Schaub and Sage leaving the pocket to get sacked a few times but I don't have any numbers, just a feeling.

Also, I think (although I'd have to check to make sure), Brown gave up a lot of his sacks in the first part of the season where he faced the Steelers (Harrison, 3 sacks), Titans (Vandenbosch, 1 sack), Colts (Freeney, 1 sack), and Dolphins (Porter, 1 sack and lots of pressures). Those sacks are probably Duane's and that's 6 of his 11 in our first 5 games (no sacks against the Jags). Or, in other words, 6 sacks in 4 games and 5 sacks in the other 12. OTOH, some of those sacks could have come from Salaam so I could be wrong.

But I think our line will be better in pass pro this year.

dalemurphy
06-17-2009, 11:02 AM
cutting a guy may make the cutter more tired than the cuttee....if you have ever rolled into a 300+ pound man of course...just sayin'

Why does everyone try so hard to find faults in Pitts all the time? I mean, just reaching for stuff usually. For the life of me I just don't understand this. It's not as bad as it used to be though...so I'll give you that much.

I rewatch every game at least once. When I do, I usually focus on the oline and dline play... particularly on the interior. So, in a sense, when I'm doing that exercise, I am looking hard at Pitts and a couple others.

I think there has been plenty of criticism of DBrown, Myers, Briesel also. I've been relentless with my criticisms of Ephraim Salaam. With Pitts, I think it's simply the fact that he's started every game of every season for a team and OLine that has ranged anywhere from horrendously bad to mediocre. While that isn't his fault and he deserves a lot of credit for surviving and sometimes thriving in that environment, there is just a ton of tape of him- and, more often than not, the offense has been unsuccessful.

My main beef with Pitts are his mental lapses. He has always had a rather high number of false starts and occasionally gets beaten badly off the ball by a lesser player. After reviewing last season, he clearly had an excellent second half of the season, though I thought he was mediocre early on. Though I've criticized him some, I have never suggested that he be replaced and have consistently reminded people of his ability as a tackle. More than that, I have criticized Kubiak for dismissing Pitts as an option at tackle when injuries and things have happened.

Vinny
06-17-2009, 11:54 AM
I see I started a nice little discussion here. When I was writing my article there was something I was wondering: were Brown and Winston as bad in pass protection as their sacks allowed totals indicate or was it more a case of Myers (or Brisiel or Pitts) getting pushed back, Schaub having to move around and eventually getting sacked by Brown or Winston's man?
I have a hard time believing that the 2 tackles allowed 19.5 sacks and the three inside men allowed only 4.5 Yes, it was on them and why you are looking to continually pin some of their poor play on Pitts is just weird....I guess you just buy into some of these fans takes too much. Winston had a disappointing season and Brown was lit up every time he got winded it seems. He would start off a game nicely then once he was tired he was abused. Winston wasn't as consistent as a top lineman should be, either in pass protection or in the running game. Briesel and Pitts didn't get pushed around at all. Myers is a different story early in the year. Later in the year he did a pretty darn good job. I donno what changed.



My main beef with Pitts are his mental lapses. He has always had a rather high number of false starts and occasionally gets beaten badly off the ball by a lesser player. After reviewing last season, he clearly had an excellent second half of the season, though I thought he was mediocre early on. Though I've criticized him some, I have never suggested that he be replaced and have consistently reminded people of his ability as a tackle. More than that, I have criticized Kubiak for dismissing Pitts as an option at tackle when injuries and things have happened. I've never been a fan of your line analysis since you dog on Pitts year in, year out, and he plays much better than you ever give him credit for (you tend to nitpick him imo). It's your POV so I won't begrudge you on it...I'll just say that I'm not in tune with your line commentary.

76Texan
06-17-2009, 11:56 AM
I can understand Brown giving up 11.5 sacks during his rookie year, especially with the players he went up against in the 1st half, but what really puzzles me is Winston giving up 8 sacks. Does anyone have the breakdown for the number of sacks allowed over the 2nd half of the season for Brown and Winston? I know Brown allowed fewer sacks during the 2nd half of the season but what about Winston? Was he playing better in the 2nd half or were his sacks evenly spread throughout the season?

I fully expect Brown to cut his sacks in half or better this season due in part to his improvement over the 2nd half of last season. But I'm not sure about the "Caveman?" Was last year a fluke? :thinking: I hope so.

Most of the sacks allowed by the tackles were their own faults.

I mentioned that Brown can be beaten off the edge by the quick guys (after the draft last year.) I also mentioned during pre-season that he should watch his inside as well. But I expect he would be (beaten, that is!) comes high noon Sundays. But, I have no worry about him... yet!

It's Winston who concerns me a bit, 'cause he a vet. And he still gets beat off the edge a little more often than I'd prefer. Sacks aren't the only measure! There are times when a sack is preferred... over having the QB throw an Int, fumble the ball, or get hit hard.

(Nobody likes the fetal position, but it sure beats hanging your QB's cleats... or gloves! LOL!)

HOU-TEX
06-17-2009, 12:18 PM
I think Winston, Brown and Salaam were all beaten by speed around the edge.

I can only assume Brown will continue to improve with technique. The loss of a few lbs should result in a huge improvement with the speed rushing DE's.

I can't really pinpoint why Winston had a down year. Contact extension? I can only hope it was just A down year.

I've always thought LT was a poor fit for Salaam, but he tried to do what he was asked and I can respect him for the efforts.

IMO, Pitts and Brisiel were the most consistant and solid of the group. Brisiel started the season a bit sluggish, but came on quite nicely in the 2nd half of the season.

I suppose I've been a little harder on Myers than most. He might've improved as the season went on like some say, but IMO, he was still less than average. I'm fine with penciling him in as our starter for the upcoming season, but I'd have a fresh eraser handy in case the expected improvement isn't seen.

76Texan
06-17-2009, 12:25 PM
I think Winston, Brown and Salaam were all beaten by speed around the edge.

I can only assume Brown will continue to improve with technique. The loss of a few lbs should result in a huge improvement with the speed rushing DE's.

I can't really pinpoint why Winston had a down year. Contact extension? I can only hope it was just A down year.

I've always thought LT was a poor fit for Salaam, but he tried to do what he was asked and I can respect him for the efforts.

IMO, Pitts and Brisiel were the most consistant and solid of the group. Brisiel started the season a bit sluggish, but came on quite nicely in the 2nd half of the season.

I suppose I've been a little harder on Myers than most. He might've improved as the season went on like some say, but IMO, he was still less than average. I'm fine with penciling him in as our starter for the upcoming season, but I'd have a fresh eraser handy in case the expected improvement isn't seen.
Don't worry HT, I'm still working on checking them plays out.
Did you remember one time (after the season) when we all discussed about the O-line, my line was that it seems pretty close that I can't really tell, that I really would have to study them close to know for sure... even though my first impression was possibly Pitts at the top, maybe followed by Winston... that might have been a bias somewhat as they've been with the team for a little longer than the others.

Just think with a little improvement all-around, fewer turnovers, man, this offense will be very hard to stop!

badboy
06-17-2009, 12:37 PM
uhh who?Oh, you know! That guy that Smith and Kubes talked about to resolve one of the three major "dire needs" of the team. That guy that could be had on the 2nd day of draft as RB was a deep position. The one that will keep fans from hoping that an undrafted free agent or a "returning from injury, hope he can make it to the huddle" player is the answer to scoring more in the red zone. Oh, you know. That power back we drafted.

Jackie Chiles
06-17-2009, 01:24 PM
cutting a guy may make the cutter more tired than the cuttee....if you have ever rolled into a 300+ pound man of course...just sayin'

Why does everyone try so hard to find faults in Pitts all the time? I mean, just reaching for stuff usually. For the life of me I just don't understand this. It's not as bad as it used to be though...so I'll give you that much.

I don't think I have ever criticized Pitts' game before, just stating a preference that I would rather see the defender get knocked down. I wish Winston would cut out some of his false starts but I'm a big fan of his game as well.

Vinny
06-17-2009, 02:08 PM
I was just talking generally. Over the years Pitts has been a whipping boy. Not so much now, but every year we get regulars bagging on Pitts when the problems in the line have generally been everyone but Chester.

dalemurphy
06-17-2009, 02:38 PM
I was just talking generally. Over the years Pitts has been a whipping boy. Not so much now, but every year we get regulars bagging on Pitts when the problems in the line have generally been everyone but Chester.

Vinny, that's because he's the only one whose been around all those years. I know that in 2002, I was critical of Jimmy Herndon, Ryan Young, and company. In 2003-04, I certainly criticized guys like Weigert, Wade... I confess to some unfounded optimism over Seth Wand. Then, in '05, I through a temper tantrum over Victor Riley starting at tackle. Flanagan, Hodgdon, and company have all taken beatings as well. And, nobody verbally abuses Kasey Studdard as much as I do. You happen to really like Chester Pitts (perhaps with good reason) and are more sensitive to criticism of him. And, since he's played over 100 games for us, there has been more of it.

BigBull17
06-18-2009, 01:43 PM
i'd have to start looking for this, but if you get the block it doesn't matter if the guy is on the ground or not most of the time. As far as I know, Chester doesn't have a problem with any of the legal blocks they are coaching.

I thought Myers played much better as the year progressed. He was pushed around early in the year and I didn't notice guys moving him around at all later in the season. I'd say he played well all through the second half of the season.

Yeah, I thought his best game was Vs Browns. He did a pretty good job vs Rodgers. Couldn't move him that well, but was able to hold ground and control him.

Vinny
06-18-2009, 02:34 PM
Vinny, that's because he's the only one whose been around all those years. I know that in 2002, I was critical of Jimmy Herndon, Ryan Young, and company. In 2003-04, I certainly criticized guys like Weigert, Wade... I confess to some unfounded optimism over Seth Wand. Then, in '05, I through a temper tantrum over Victor Riley starting at tackle. Flanagan, Hodgdon, and company have all taken beatings as well. And, nobody verbally abuses Kasey Studdard as much as I do. You happen to really like Chester Pitts (perhaps with good reason) and are more sensitive to criticism of him. And, since he's played over 100 games for us, there has been more of it.
ok, fair enough...glad to get your opinion all the same. It just frustrates me when people want to explain away our mediocre line and just point to Chester all the time. I'm not pinning this all on you pards, but this thread is a good example of how the fans of the team drive the perception of a player Nationally. Last year this same guy wrote an article and pretty much regurgitated all the really weak misinformed takes about Pitts being a player the team would probably replace if they had a chance, or was mediocre at best. I'd be willing to bet that only really hard core fans who frequent NFL message boards know he was a Pro Bowl alternate last season.
Yeah, I thought his best game was Vs Browns. He did a pretty good job vs Rodgers. Couldn't move him that well, but was able to hold ground and control him.I expected Rodgers to dominate him and I was pleasantly surprised to see Myers play so well.

76Texan
06-22-2009, 04:11 PM
I think the redzone stats are very misleading.

The Vikings with A.Peterson has a lower TD percentage in the redzone than the Texans. 43.2 to 45.9

The winless Detroit Lions ranked 5th in the league, at 61.3

Also, we had 8 turnovers (fumbles/Ints) in the redzone.
We also ran out the clock twice.

The problems in blocking included the TEs, the FB, and the receivers, besides all the linemen. It's kinda spread fairly uniform among all parties involved, no single player can be singled out, far as I can see.

Then we had a few penalties (and a bad snap,) making it harder to score a TD.

Another a bad snap on a FG attempt, a FG as time wound down (not enough time to go for a TD)