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Runner
06-10-2009, 08:36 AM
The Texans are involved in some slow moving contract negotiations right now. While every case is different, are there patterns. Some things that come to mind are:

- the players are turning down good offers due to greed.
- the team is taking a hard line approach; the player has been franchised/has been tendered/is under contract and is easily replaceable so there is nothing to talk about.
- the front office has some analysis paralysis; fear of making a costly blunder stops them from making medium to high offers to medium to high performers.
- this is strictly business as usual in the NFL and there is nothing to discuss.

I'm sure that as with most topics there is no black and white answer, and that reality is a combination of these and other factors. Anyone have any thoughtful opinions on the issue?

eriadoc
06-10-2009, 08:57 AM
The Texans are involved in some slow moving contract negotiations right now. While every case is different, are there patterns. Some things that come to mind are:

- the players are turning down good offers due to greed.
- the team is taking a hard line approach; the player has been franchised/has been tendered/is under contract and is easily replaceable so there is nothing to talk about.
- the front office has some analysis paralysis; fear of making a costly blunder stops them from making medium to high offers to medium to high performers.
- this is strictly business as usual in the NFL and there is nothing to discuss.

I'm sure that as with most topics there is no black and white answer, and that reality is a combination of these and other factors. Anyone have any thoughtful opinions on the issue?

I probably don't have any thoughtful opinions, but I'll state my worthless one nonetheless.

As you say, it's a combination of things, but I really think the team is trying to set itself up to conduct business like the Eagles, Pats, Steelers, etc. That's probably a good thing for the long-term health of the franchise. However, they haven't had to deal with success until now, and even that's pretty meager. So they haven't really had to deal with trying to keep their homegrown players under contract and happy, and now they're working their way through it. Frankly, I think they're stumbling through it. Both sides are always going to strive to get the better end of the negotiations, but I think ownership doesn't have a solid baseline in mind that they should operate from. They're still learning.

J. Sean Wonton
06-10-2009, 09:07 AM
We will make fair offers. If a player wants more, we will fight because 1) we made a fair offer and 2) we don't want copycats.

Kaiser Toro
06-10-2009, 09:08 AM
I would say uncertainty with the CBA, the agents/players have a higher opinion of their value, and the agents are trying to leverage the Texans potential (as in - you need our player to take the next step). Uncertainty and growing pains is my opinion.

I could live without all three if need be. We have more depth than ever, but there are still few players that I would feel the need to lock up. Ryans has lost a step, Robinson is damaged goods and we can always find a pass catching TE for this offense that cannot get into the end zone.

Runner
06-10-2009, 09:17 AM
I would say uncertainty with the CBA, the agents/players have a higher opinion of their value, and the agents are trying to leverage the Texans potential (as in - you need our player to take the next step). Uncertainty and growing pains is my opinion.

I could live without all three if need be. We have more depth than ever, but there are still few players that I would feel the need to lock up. Ryans has lost a step, Robinson is damaged goods and we can always find a pass catching TE for this offense that cannot get into the end zone.


I'm not sure how replaceable OD is if the Texans want to take the next step. He has a solid base in the offense with yards and catches, but needs to add red zone effectiveness. A new tight end has to start from a lower level to reach the same "next step". He seems worth a 4-5 year deal with a decent guarantee to me. Of course, we don't know if the Texans offered him a fair deal or if he's demanded an unfair deal or ...

J. Sean Wonton
06-10-2009, 09:17 AM
I would say uncertainty with the CBA, the agents/players have a higher opinion of their value, and the agents are trying to leverage the Texans potential (as in - you need our player to take the next step). Uncertainty and growing pains is my opinion.

I could live without all three if need be. We have more depth than ever, but there are still few players that I would feel the need to lock up. Ryans has lost a step, Robinson is damaged goods and we can always find a pass catching TE for this offense that cannot get into the end zone.

All of KT's points in that first sentence are excellent, but I think the bolded portion explains a lot.

ArlingtonTexan
06-10-2009, 09:20 AM
The biggest issue is that the Texans have more leverage than the players. Ryans is under contract. Daniels while technically not under contract, as RFA has no option, but to sign his tender 1 year tender at almost 3 million or not play. Dunta with the franchise tag really is similiar to Daniels, either sign the 1 year nearly 10 million tender or do not play. Especially, with the rules of the uncapped year, the players are all trying to get the long term deal because the club will be able to place all of them in the same situation next off-season. From the Texans purest business standpoint, they are under no rush or even obligation to get a long term deal done with any of them.

Basically, both sides are acting in their best interests. This is business as usual.

nero THE zero
06-10-2009, 09:27 AM
I'm not sure how replaceable OD is if the Texans want to take the next step. He has a solid base in the offense with yards and catches, but needs to add red zone effectiveness. A new tight end has to start from a lower level to reach the same "next step". He seems worth a 4-5 year deal with a decent guarantee to me. Of course, we don't know if the Texans offered him a fair deal or if he's demanded an unfair deal or ...

I'm not saying that I necessarily think OD is expendable. But, it wouldn't be a "new tight end" taking his place. Joel Dreesen signed an unexpectedly high contract in February. He performed well last season, better than OD in the red zone, IMO, and would be able to fill in admirably (though probably not to OD full potential.)

I think there's substance to the idea that the TE is a product of this offense. The vertical nature of our passing game often leaves the middle open to exploit. Obviously the TE has to be able to carry out the task, and OD has a great football IQ, but he's not exceptionally big nor is he exceptionally fast.

He'll obviously be with the Texans this season, and maybe for a couple more after that, depending on what happens with the CBA. But, in his particular case, I'd be real careful of the value I place on him.

cland
06-10-2009, 09:40 AM
I like hearing that Rick Smith is hard to work with... Just imagine the other option: 'Man, I can't believe he gave us this deal!' At the same time I'm glad Daniels got his unsigned butt off the practice field, that's one nasty slip from his own financial crisis.

I think it's way too early to say the Texans' are stumbling, slow-paced, or hard-lining guys on contract negotiations. It's also too early to say the players are being greedy, don't want to play for the team, or are just in it for a buck.

What we're seeing here is completely normal negotiating tactics. The team uses it's (CBA-negotiated) strategies: RFA tenders, Franchise tender, and ultimately the contract value that's offered. The players are in turn using their leverage: not signing the tenders, not showing up for OTAs/camp, and (eventually) the possibility of playing for another team.

There's a long time before the start of camp and the season, and I expect that most of these contract issues will get worked out by then. If they don't, then it will be time to start criticizing the FO and Players.

dalemurphy
06-10-2009, 09:44 AM
I would say uncertainty with the CBA, the agents/players have a higher opinion of their value, and the agents are trying to leverage the Texans potential (as in - you need our player to take the next step). Uncertainty and growing pains is my opinion.

I could live without all three if need be. We have more depth than ever, but there are still few players that I would feel the need to lock up. Ryans has lost a step, Robinson is damaged goods and we can always find a pass catching TE for this offense that cannot get into the end zone.

Agreed. All of our 2006 guys will eventually be compelled to settle for what we offer them otherwise they risk being RFA until 2012. I am concerned why there hasn't been more movement on players like Pitts and KWalter though. Walter should be a fairly simply extension and I don't know if they've even begun negotiations.

Runner
06-10-2009, 09:51 AM
I agree the CBA issues are big contributors, especially for those who have to go through RFA double jeopardy. The relatively weak NFL players union strikes again.

Texecutioner
06-10-2009, 11:53 AM
I'm not sure how replaceable OD is if the Texans want to take the next step. He has a solid base in the offense with yards and catches, but needs to add red zone effectiveness. A new tight end has to start from a lower level to reach the same "next step". He seems worth a 4-5 year deal with a decent guarantee to me. Of course, we don't know if the Texans offered him a fair deal or if he's demanded an unfair deal or ...

I think OD might be the most expendable out of the 3 actually. It has been shown time and time again that rookie TE's can come in and be very productive in the passing game right away if they're good players. Daniels did real well as a rookie,but Carr was still here and it held his numbers down but he played really well.

I want to sign Daniels really really bad, but it depends on what he is demanding.

I think Ryans is the most important guy to lock up. He stays healthy on the field even when he's hurt, and is a leader as well. We need to keep the quality guys on our defense. We simply can't afford to lose our defensive players that can play well for a long time and many years. Dunta has acted like a spoiled brat and turned down a great offer and has shown to be the most injury prone out of all of them, so I think Ryans is the most important guy to sign, and OD and Dunta become a toss up depending on what both of them want and what we have behind them. If Casey shows that he's really really good right out of the gate, then I'd have no problem trading Daniels to save the money in order so we could have a low cost productive TE just like Daniels has been the last few years. We could easily get at least a 2nd rounder for him and maybe even a first rounder perhaps. It just depends on how much money he thinks he should get. And this is a put up or shut up year for Dunta. He had better be performing lights out this season after acting like such a baby. If not, he can to walking after this season, and he had better show up at camp very soon.

steelbtexan
06-10-2009, 11:54 AM
Forget Dunta until he proves he's 100%.

Pay DR & OD

The time has come to pay up Uncle BOB.

The honeymoon is over BOB you are going to have to start paying out vet. money.

I know it's hard to open your checkbook but you can do it.

steelbtexan
06-10-2009, 11:56 AM
The biggest issue is that the Texans have more leverage than the players. Ryans is under contract. Daniels while technically not under contract, as RFA has no option, but to sign his tender 1 year tender at almost 3 million or not play. Dunta with the franchise tag really is similiar to Daniels, either sign the 1 year nearly 10 million tender or do not play. Especially, with the rules of the uncapped year, the players are all trying to get the long term deal because the club will be able to place all of them in the same situation next off-season. From the Texans purest business standpoint, they are under no rush or even obligation to get a long term deal done with any of them.

Basically, both sides are acting in their best interests. This is business as usual.

Spot On

nero THE zero
06-10-2009, 12:05 PM
McNair being cheap has to be one of the biggest myths in the history of Houston sports.

eriadoc
06-10-2009, 12:41 PM
I think OD might be the most expendable out of the 3 actually. It has been shown time and time again that rookie TE's can come in and be very productive in the passing game right away if they're good players. Daniels did real well as a rookie,but Carr was still here and it held his numbers down but he played really well.

I want to sign Daniels really really bad, but it depends on what he is demanding.

I think Ryans is the most important guy to lock up. He stays healthy on the field even when he's hurt, and is a leader as well. We need to keep the quality guys on our defense. We simply can't afford to lose our defensive players that can play well for a long time and many years. Dunta has acted like a spoiled brat and turned down a great offer and has shown to be the most injury prone out of all of them, so I think Ryans is the most important guy to sign, and OD and Dunta become a toss up depending on what both of them want and what we have behind them. If Casey shows that he's really really good right out of the gate, then I'd have no problem trading Daniels to save the money in order so we could have a low cost productive TE just like Daniels has been the last few years. We could easily get at least a 2nd rounder for him and maybe even a first rounder perhaps. It just depends on how much money he thinks he should get. And this is a put up or shut up year for Dunta. He had better be performing lights out this season after acting like such a baby. If not, he can to walking after this season, and he had better show up at camp very soon.

LOL, I always wondered how BS rumors like these get started, and I guess now I see how. Dunta Robinson played in the first 57 straight games of his career. In the 57th game, he got taken out in an accident that can happen to any NFL player. Most NFL players that blow out their ACL miss a year and a half. NFL players that blow out multiple ligaments and rip the hamstring from the bone might be expected to take a little longer. Robinson came back and played in 11 games last year. So if anything, he rushed back too soon.

People can bellyache about his contract situation all they want, but it's just flat inaccurate to say he's injury prone. And there's no questioning the guy's toughness.

eriadoc
06-10-2009, 12:42 PM
McNair being cheap has to be one of the biggest myths in the history of Houston sports.

I don't think it's a myth, because I haven't heard too many people say he's cheap. I have heard tons of people say he's spent money unwisely, and given some of the contracts that have been handed out, that's hard to argue.

Texan JBZ
06-10-2009, 01:04 PM
The primary problem that is going on with these contract negotiations with the Texans is that other poorly run franchises are setting the precedent that players want to follow, and the better run franchises are refusing to concede. And they shouldn't. For example, look at Dunta's situation. Nate Clements signed for a ton of money that he has yet to show that he's worth, Nnamdi signed for QB-type money, the Colts overpaid for Hayden (although it was more reasonable than the others), and what Dan Snyder gave DeAngelo Hall is completely laughable. Yet, these teams are responsible for making players believe they are worth money that better run teams are simply not going to pay them.

Look at OD's situation. The Broncos gave Daniel Graham a bad contract, and Winslow is basically stealing from the Bucs right now. But these types of deals make OD and his agent look at the market and say that if these players who are not on his same level are getting these types of contracts, then he should too. But the Texans are being smarter, just like the Pats, Eagles, Panthers, and Steelers who refuse to let bad contracts hamstring their success. I like what the Texans are doing. Who says that James Casey can't be the same or even better than OD? Nobody knows. I do know this. The Falcons gave up a second rounder for Tony Gonzalez who is at the end of his career. If Owen was so valuable, then certainly a team would be willing to give up a first round pick for him when he still has 8-10 solid years of production left. Same with Dunta.

Players should try to get as much as they can as soon as they can, because NFL careers are very short compared to other pro sports. But they can't be upset that these franchises are doing what they have to do in order to keep their business successful and thriving. Following the lead of the Raiders, 49ers, Redskins, and Cowboys can prove to be disastrous.

nero THE zero
06-10-2009, 01:05 PM
I don't think it's a myth, because I haven't heard too many people say he's cheap.

You must not listen to sports talk radio or read this message board then.

Texecutioner
06-10-2009, 01:07 PM
People can bellyache about his contract situation all they want, but it's just flat inaccurate to say he's injury prone. And there's no questioning the guy's toughness.

I didn't say in a blanket statement that he was injury prone.

I said that he was the most injury prone out of the three Eriadoc, and that has been the case with the recent history of the 3. Maybe he's played more seasons and all, but in the last 3 years he's been more injury prone than the other two.

cland
06-10-2009, 01:14 PM
Good points, Texan JBZ. If I'm Bob McNair my reply to the players/fans is this: "I will squeeze and pay out every dollar of the cap, on a regular play-off contender." Strapping your cap to a .500 team means you don't have any room to get better.

:redtowel: = :money:

DiehardChris
06-10-2009, 01:16 PM
Bob McNair isn't nearly cheap. Give me a break. Drayton McClane is cheap.

ArlingtonTexan
06-10-2009, 01:23 PM
Bob McNair isn't nearly cheap. Give me a break. Drayton McClane is cheap.

Actually, more penny wise and pound foolish. Not investing more in minor leagues and player development forces him to overspend on a Tejada, which means he has less money on fairly reasonable $100 million budget to spread around to multiple players... but this stuff belongs in another thread.

badboy
06-10-2009, 01:24 PM
I am ok with all three remaining or leaving. I think the team is much stronger and deeper in talent. I agree that Dunta should sign what was offered and be at TC. He could be surprised at the level our corners will play this year, with or without him. Same for OD. Dreesen looked good & James Casey is versatile. I am as big a fan of Ryans as anyone but KT hit it on the head with his post. Ryans has taken a lot of punishment.

Spike
06-10-2009, 01:49 PM
I have mixed feelings regarding this topic.

I was extremely disappointed to read the comments from OD's agent. I think it is a poor reflection of Rick Smith and the organziation that we are just not being responsive. This is the quickest way to deteriorate relationships. I undertsand if the Texans view ODs situation (as a restricted free agent) making it less of a priority - but that should be communicated. Communication appears to be the main sticking point with Dunta as well - Smith should have never said that he would not franchise him.

In defense of Rick Smith and the organization, I think that there is just some bad luck with having three popular players have contracts coming up at the same time with the CBA expiring. I
- It is not unreasonable that the Texans chose to tag Robinsoon. Notwithstanding that a fair, long term agreement was put on the table, committing to pay him $10M next year is within the rules of the game.
- OD's situation is similar. All other RFAs have signed their deals - so I don't think you can blame the Texans for not anticipating that this would not be enough at this time.

eriadoc
06-10-2009, 02:22 PM
I didn't say in a blanket statement that he was injury prone.

I said that he was the most injury prone out of the three Eriadoc, and that has been the case with the recent history of the 3. Maybe he's played more seasons and all, but in the last 3 years he's been more injury prone than the other two.

No, he hasn't. He's missed 12 games over the past two seasons, all contiguous, due to a football accident. He didn't miss any of that time because he's injury prone. He didn't miss any time prior to that at all. People aren't prone to having their knees blown out in a football accident anymore than Harry Williams was prone to having his neck broken on special teams. Guys that are constantly coming up with hamstring injuries, sprained ankles, or tweaked groins can be called "injury prone".

And on top of that, your time frame is all off. Three seasons ago he played a full season, just as he did the first two years of his career.

Vinny
06-10-2009, 03:15 PM
wake me up when its at least July...perhaps I'll have a comment then. Back to the deep freeze.

TimeKiller
06-10-2009, 04:19 PM
As I see it right now the chips are mostly on the Texans' side for all 3 deals. Actually the only chip I see for the players is attendance.

I like the fact that the players don't like Rick Smith's ways. Who ever walked into their bosses office and said I want a 400% raise and got it? I think it's pretty shiesty to criticize him for trying to do his job though, he certainly has never come out and said anything like, "Man remember the time OD fumbled the ball like 4 times in 1 season and almost got himself benched?" or "Who do you know that looks at 23 mil and scoffs?"

Big Bob will have to pay up to keep some players but I'm sure he will expect something for it. He's always been the hands-off, stand in the back until the press gets to me and then I'll just have something nice to say type. What a shocking blow it might be to hear the man come with a little fire in an interview and call out Dunta! "Maybe he ought to make a probowl before demanding that much money to begin with" would certainly sting.

steelbtexan
06-10-2009, 10:39 PM
The Texans have the upper hand in the negociations.

Uncle Bob willl use this to his advantage and cut the best deal possible with DR.

I dont think he will do this with OD because they drafted Hill and Casey in the event things went down like this (OD holding out)

This is how Uncle BoB does business. Not that I think it is a bad way to do business.

Texecutioner
06-10-2009, 10:51 PM
No, he hasn't. He's missed 12 games over the past two seasons, all contiguous, due to a football accident. He didn't miss any of that time because he's injury prone. He didn't miss any time prior to that at all. People aren't prone to having their knees blown out in a football accident anymore than Harry Williams was prone to having his neck broken on special teams. Guys that are constantly coming up with hamstring injuries, sprained ankles, or tweaked groins can be called "injury prone".

Okay, fair enough. THese are good points and you're right that doesn't make him injury prone either I guess. But he still has had a major surgery and he is older than the other two. I think that Demeco and Daniels are both better at their positions than Dunta is, and the two of them don't seem to be acting all whiney like Dunta is. Demeco is a little, but not near the degree that Dunta is.

And on top of that, your time frame is all off. Three seasons ago he played a full season, just as he did the first two years of his career.

What was I off about? I thought that I just mentioned the last two seasons.

JCTexan
06-10-2009, 11:07 PM
I don't think it's a myth, because I haven't heard too many people say he's cheap. I have heard tons of people say he's spent money unwisely, and given some of the contracts that have been handed out, that's hard to argue.

Isn't that the GM's job, though? The owner spends the money, but the GM is the guy who decides who the money goes to. Mcnair has no fault in the contracts of any of the players, he just pays for them. I'm pretty sure that's how the NFL is anyway...

eriadoc
06-10-2009, 11:36 PM
Okay, fair enough. THese are good points and you're right that doesn't make him injury prone either I guess. But he still has had a major surgery and he is older than the other two. I think that Demeco and Daniels are both better at their positions than Dunta is, and the two of them don't seem to be acting all whiney like Dunta is. Demeco is a little, but not near the degree that Dunta is.

I don't disagree about Dunta being whiny. Well, I wouldn't say whiny; I just think he's overrated himself, especially given the severity of the injury.

Isn't that the GM's job, though? The owner spends the money, but the GM is the guy who decides who the money goes to. Mcnair has no fault in the contracts of any of the players, he just pays for them. I'm pretty sure that's how the NFL is anyway...

McNair spent money very unwisely when he hired Casserly, LOL. Anyway, I don't think he's cheap.

Texan JBZ
06-10-2009, 11:41 PM
I was extremely disappointed to read the comments from OD's agent. I think it is a poor reflection of Rick Smith and the organziation that we are just not being responsive. This is the quickest way to deteriorate relationships. I undertsand if the Texans view ODs situation (as a restricted free agent) making it less of a priority - but that should be communicated. Communication appears to be the main sticking point with Dunta as well - Smith should have never said that he would not franchise him.

OD's agent is going to try and slant things in his player's favor. That's his job. You can only take what agents say with a grain of salt. Most agents are undercover lawyers anyway.

And everyone wants to put some sort of blame on Rick Smith. It's not Rick Smith's fault at all. This is what I've heard about DeMeco and Dunta. DeMeco was reportedly offered an extension that would have made him one the top 5 MLBs in the NFL. He and his agent turned it down. DeMeco all of a sudden fires his agent and hires a new one. Rick Smith 1 - Player 0. Dunta was reportedly offered $23 million guaranteed, so his total contract would have probably been in the $40-45 million range over 6-7 years with options. That's a deal comparable to Kelvin Hayden, Chris Gamble, and Corey Webster - players on Dunta's level. He wasn't going to get Asante Samuel or Nate Clements type money coming back from that injury and he should have known that coming in. I'm pretty sure that Rick Smith told Dunta he would not franchise him because - get this -he had no plans of franchising him. He probably thought in his mind that the deal they were prepared to offer Dunta was more than fair considering his position. He was probably shocked as hell when he turned it down. I was! So Rick Smith does what he should have done in the situation and franchises Dunta. If Dunta is so valuable and such an elite CB, then all a team has to give up is a 1st rounder to sign him. Didn't happen, so Dunta throws a hissyfit and makes himself look like an ass. Rick Smith 2 - Players 0. With OD, he was offered the max tender for an URFA. If a team wants to sign him, they have to give up some draft picks. Detroit had 2 first round draft picks and used one of them on a TE (Brandon Pettigrew). If OD's stock is so high, then why no offer from a team like Detroit for a bonafide all-star player? And then dumbass Tampa Bay steps in and signs Kellen Winslow Jr. to an absurd deal. No other GM besides the one in Tampa Bay would have given up so much to a troublesome player like Winslow. So it makes negotiations on Rick Smith with OD and his agent because Tampa has the precedent that they want the Texans to follow. Rick Smith refuses, and he should. OD is a great player, but I'd be upset with the Texans if they sign him to a Winslow type deal. That's outrageous. So I'm pretty sure Rick Smith has been working hard on negotiations with OD and his agent, but he refuses to fall into the same trap the Bucs did. Rick Smith 3 - Player 0.

Bottom line: it's not Rick Smith's fault that these players and their agents are overvaluing themselves. That's their issue.

Texecutioner
06-10-2009, 11:47 PM
OD's agent is going to try and slant things in his player's favor. That's his job. You can only take what agents say with a grain of salt. Most agents are undercover lawyers anyway.

Aint that the truth. That's all they really are. Lol!

steelbtexan
06-11-2009, 12:18 AM
Apparently Ryans agrees with you because he fired his agent.

distant_texans_fan
06-11-2009, 03:38 AM
Anyone know of the link to Sports Radio 610's talk with Eric Winston? I came across the link yesterday and listened to some of it, but my gf closed the window when I got up to grab dinner. (She thinks football is evil)

He was talking about OD and his contract situation. It was a great discussion.

eriadoc
06-11-2009, 09:01 AM
Anyone know of the link to Sports Radio 610's talk with Eric Winston? I came across the link yesterday and listened to some of it, but my gf closed the window when I got up to grab dinner. (She thinks football is evil)

He was talking about OD and his contract situation. It was a great discussion.

First of all, here you go (http://www.sportsradio610.com/pages/151267.php). Second, get out now, while she's still just a GF. I'm not saying football > women, but football is definitely > women who hate football.

Malloy
06-11-2009, 09:36 AM
First of all, here you go (http://www.sportsradio610.com/pages/151267.php). Second, get out now, while she's still just a GF. I'm not saying football > women, but football is definitely > women who hate football.

Eriadoc is right, if you cant talk her into wearing Texans apparel just once in a while, you better start looking for your next ex ;)

steelbtexan
06-11-2009, 10:10 AM
Eriadoc is right, if you cant talk her into wearing Texans apparel just once in a while, you better start looking for your next ex ;)

Quoted for truth