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TEXANS84
06-03-2009, 06:16 PM
Hmm...things could get interesting

With Falcons offensive lineman Tyson Clabo signing his restricted free agency tender, only one unsigned restricted free agent remains: Texans tight end Owen Daniels.

And if Daniels doesn’t accept his one-year, $2.792 million offer by June 15, things could get interesting.

After that date, the Texans acquire the option to reduce the tender to the greater of the minimum salary for a player of Daniels’ experience level or 110 percent of his 2008 pay.

Since he made $451,000 in 2008, the Texans would able to reduce the tender to the three-year veteran minimum of $520,000.

The Texans applied the highest possible tender to Daniels, which would have entitled the team to a first-round and a third-round draft pick if he had signed an offer sheet that the Texans had then opted not to match. He received no interest before the April deadline for pilfering restricted free agents, likely due to the fact that no one would ever give up that much in trade for a tight end.

Reducing the tender won’t be the best way to make their player happy, but it will be a good indication of how serious the Texans are about playing hardball with guys who want more money, like Daniels, cornerback Dunta Robinson, and linebacker DeMeco Ryans.

LINK (http://www.profootballtalk.com/category/rumor-mill/)

barrett
06-03-2009, 06:21 PM
I saw this. I was thinking there's no way he doesn't sign it. That seems crazy to me. He signs it right?

They probably don't want to sign everybody right away. they are allowed to have 8 extra guys in camp while the draftees are unsigned.

spurstexanstros
06-03-2009, 06:53 PM
I hope they sign he is great for this team.

bckey
06-04-2009, 01:43 AM
He doesn't stand to gain anything by not signing but stands to lose a lot if he doesn't. He'll sign.

barrett
06-04-2009, 04:47 AM
Winston and sports radio 610 talk about this actually. Winston says he's really shocked that Daniels is at OTA's. He respects him for his decision and says that it shows what kind of players Daniels is.

The interview goes on to a really nice discussion about the CBA. It's definitely worth a listen if you can spare the 20 or so minutes.

http://www.sportsradio610.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=3777422

kiwitexansfan
06-04-2009, 06:45 AM
I respect Ryans and Daniels for being at OTAs with their contract issues.

I still think Daniels signs a tender or an extension before the season starts.

Ryans I'm not sure about because I think he dropped off last year and they might want to see what he brings at the beginning of this season before committing long term to him.

That other guy, well needless to say there is less respect there and less concern about getting him signed.

Ckw
06-04-2009, 11:56 AM
Should we be getting a little frustrated with Rick Smith? I mean I don't blame him for the Dunta situation but there is no reason OD and Demeco should not be getting good deals. What's the problem?

DoCRoN
06-04-2009, 12:00 PM
There has to be a reason OD hasn't signed his tender. I'm not a "contract expert" by any means, but.... The only conclusion I can draw is that Smith and OD's agent are trying to work out a longer-term deal. If they don't, he'll undoubtedly sign the tender before the deadline.

This is pure speculation, but given all the facts listed above I can't think of any other reason why he hasn't signed it yet.

Thoughts?

Vinny
06-04-2009, 12:08 PM
Should we be getting a little frustrated with Rick Smith? I mean I don't blame him for the Dunta situation but there is no reason OD and Demeco should not be getting good deals. What's the problem?
only a couple of players with contract issues in early June. That's really a problem?

DiehardChris
06-04-2009, 12:10 PM
I still blame Kellen Winslow's stupid, ridiculous deal and the morons at Tampa who actually put pen to paper on it. I'm sure Owen and his agent had a much less ludicrous number in mind until they saw that and said "oh, wait - well, Owen has proven much more on and off the field than Winslow."

Sigh.

Ckw
06-04-2009, 12:21 PM
only a couple of players with contract issues in early June. That's really a problem?

When those couple of players are some of the best players on your team, it is a bit of a problem. But I what I said was a question so I personally have mixed emotions and was simply wondering what others on here thought about it.

The Pencil Neck
06-04-2009, 12:34 PM
When those couple of players are some of the best players on your team, it is a bit of a problem. But I what I said was a question so I personally have mixed emotions and was simply wondering what others on here thought about it.

I'm not worried about it.

Yet.

nunusguy
06-04-2009, 12:57 PM
I don't care what they paid Winslow, I don't see OD being worth more than 10-12 Million guaranteed to the Texans. He probably gets more than that, but I don't see it especially with ODs backup being a descent player and 2 more TEs drafted this year alone.

Texecutioner
06-04-2009, 01:07 PM
Well I love Owen Daniels and all, but let me propose this? (You guys are going to hate me)

Since everyone seems to think that Casey is going to be so good as a pass catching TE, what if the Texans dangled Daniels to possibly get a first rounder. Many teams out there use first round draft picks on a guy that they think will be a great TE, and with Daniels there is no ? there. You know what you're getting. If Casey can be similar to what Daniels is now, I think that it might be worth thinking about.

Anyone agree, or am I just crazy?

RipTraxx
06-04-2009, 01:15 PM
Since Dunta is our first "holdout"..im not worried about it.

Truth of the matter is we signed AJ to an extension a while back, and he's prolly worth (and COULD ask for) way more than what he's currently getting.

Spike
06-04-2009, 02:07 PM
Should we be getting a little frustrated with Rick Smith? I mean I don't blame him for the Dunta situation but there is no reason OD and Demeco should not be getting good deals. What's the problem?

I think it this is a fair question. Both of these guys are pro-bowl caliber players and leaders on the team. For a young franchise, I think it is important to keep these types of guys - who are one of few nationally recongized players on our team - and keep them happy.

All that being said, there is no telling what is going on behind the scenes. I would hope that these guys were advised to show up because real progress is being made. You would think that if the organization was taking an unreasonably slow pace in dealing with these contracts that these players wouldn't be at camp.

I have to believe that Rick Smith is going to do everything he can to keep both of these guys happy. Arguably (if the reports are true), everything was done to keep Dunta happy as well - there is just nothing you can do if the asking price is too high.

Double Barrel
06-04-2009, 02:17 PM
I think both of these guys (Daniels and Ryans) will be happy with their new deals by training camp. At least that's what I'm hoping for.

Texan_Bill
06-04-2009, 03:17 PM
only a couple of players with contract issues in early June. That's really a problem?
^^^This one.

I think both of these guys (Daniels and Ryans) will be happy with their new deals by training camp. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
^^^ And this one.

Sum it up perfectly.

Ckw
06-04-2009, 04:48 PM
^^^This one.


^^^ And this one.

Sum it up perfectly.

I hope you are right TB.

Ckw
06-04-2009, 04:49 PM
We might be able to get by without OD, especially if Casey can prove to be a good pass catching TE.

We will take a significant step back if we lose Demeco.

Texecutioner
06-04-2009, 04:59 PM
We might be able to get by without OD, especially if Casey can prove to be a good pass catching TE.

We will take a significant step back if we lose Demeco.

That was my thoughts if Casey can be good enough.

I asked the question earlier if anyone would consider it to be a good idea to trade OD for a possible 1st rounder, and no has answered yet. I guess everyone thought that was a horribly dumb question or something, but if Casey is the real deal I think that it would be smart.

Ckw
06-04-2009, 05:18 PM
That was my thoughts if Casey can be good enough.

I asked the question earlier if anyone would consider it to be a good idea to trade OD for a possible 1st rounder, and no has answered yet. I guess everyone thought that was a horribly dumb question or something, but if Casey is the real deal I think that it would be smart.

Sure but here is the thing: the TE position is vital in this offense. I really believe our WRs would have nowhere near the production they have had if you remove a good TE like OD from the equation. If Casey can replace him and keep up the production, then I am all for trading Owen. But that is a big IF.

TEXANS84
06-04-2009, 05:39 PM
We might be able to get by without OD, especially if Casey can prove to be a good pass catching TE.


That or Dreissen. Guy did great in goalline situations and wasn't scared to go across the middle. They tendered him at a head scratching high price, I thought they'd let him walk.
And then they drafted two more TE's, which doesn't make any sense.

I think they had a plan for Owen....I'm just looking at all the signs that are pointing to moving on.

Texecutioner
06-04-2009, 05:41 PM
Sure but here is the thing: the TE position is vital in this offense. I really believe our WRs would have nowhere near the production they have had if you remove a good TE like OD from the equation. If Casey can replace him and keep up the production, then I am all for trading Owen. But that is a big IF.

I agree with all of this, and that's why I said IF Casey can carry the load. If so, we won't be able to feed both guys that much, and if he can, why not try and get a 1st rounder for him? That would be pretty sweet for next year's draft.

Double Barrel
06-04-2009, 07:08 PM
While it's very tempting to look at a 1st round pick (if offered), I still go with working out a deal with a proven TE instead of hoping that Casey can be as good as OD. Sort of the bird in the hand is better than two in the bush kinda' logic, IMO.

V3rm0nt3r
06-04-2009, 08:11 PM
the Texans aren't about to trade this guy in hopes that a 5th round rookie is going to step up. OD went to the PRO BOWL this past year and you want to deal him for a draft pick? there is no way Casey could fill that much of a void. there are very few times when i scratch my head at so many posts in one thread on this board but this is ridiculous. OD was part of the three headed receiving monster that helped this team rank 3rd in the league in overall offense with AJ and Walter. he is probably the 2nd most dynamic receiving option on this team and you want to trade him for a MAYBE player. these posts are unforgivable. give him a long term contract. and sign the two leaders of this defense back. this team will go 6-10 at BEST without these players.

Texecutioner
06-04-2009, 08:35 PM
the Texans aren't about to trade this guy in hopes that a 5th round rookie is going to step up. OD went to the PRO BOWL this past year and you want to deal him for a draft pick?

I didn't say I wanted to trade him for a draft pick, I proposed the possible idea. You do realize that he may demand top TE money around the price that Winslow is getting and I for one would rather him walk for that kind of dough. So if the situation were to get to that I think trading him for a high pick would be the smartest thing to do if that may end up being the case. Hopefully it won't, but we did draft two TE's so we would have back ups to take his spot if we had to do that.


there is no way Casey could fill that much of a void.

You don't know what he can do. He hasn't played.




there are very few times when i scratch my head at so many posts in one thread on this board but this is ridiculous.

Well, you obviously haven't thought about the alternative of what Daniels might ask for with his extension, so it seems to me that you haven't thought this through. Once again, I never said we should do it, I just proposed the idea. If Daniels wants money anywhere close to Winslow it would actually be smart.

OD was part of the three headed receiving monster that helped this team rank 3rd in the league in overall offense with AJ and Walter.

We weren't the 3rd best offense in the league last year. That is incorrect.

he is probably the 2nd most dynamic receiving option on this team and you want to trade him for a MAYBE player. these posts are unforgivable.

This is where your post gets over the top. The NFL is a business and the Texans management have to do what's right for the team financially. If Daniels asks for to much money while we've got other TE's who might be pretty good which Casey probably will be then we could still get good production at the position for around the same low price that we've been paying Daniels. If Casey were to be really good and we were able to avoid paying all of that money to Daniels and get a high draft pick for him, then that would be a genius move by SMith.



give him a long term contract. and sign the two leaders of this defense back. this team will go 6-10 at BEST without these players.

Now this is where you went way over board. If Casey could produce a season where he gets around 500 to 600 yards receiving which is quite possible and a few TD's, and he's doing that for not even a Mill a season while Daniels will want like 5 Mill a season, then we'd have made out like a bandit.

Once again, I'm not suggesting that "we should" trade Daniels, but I'm thinking ahead and contemplating if he might possibly ask for a ton of money that our management won't pay. If we lose him and get nothing because he is asking for to much then that would be really stupid.

Mike Kerns
06-09-2009, 01:30 PM
I think I just pissed Owen Daniels off on Facebook. Whoops!

Owen Daniels: Decided not to show up for practice because of my contract situation. I would much rather bet there, but I'm not getting the fairness I was hoping for on the business end of things. I really hope we can agree on something soon.

about an hour ago · Comment · Like/Unlike

I replied:

Dude, come on. Two words: Demeco Ryans.

He immediately replied:

I appreciate the support from most of you. I can see how its hard for some people to understand, but you just have to stick up for yourself sometimes, bottom line.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/OwenDaniels?ref=nf

Sorry Owen. I love your game. But with the way the world is right now, the last thing I want to hear is Athletes whining about money and contracts. Just my opinion.

Texecutioner
06-09-2009, 01:36 PM
I think I just pissed Owen Daniels off on Facebook. Whoops!



I replied:



He immediately replied:



http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/OwenDaniels?ref=nf

Sorry Owen. I love your game. But with the way the world is right now, the last thing I want to hear is Athletes whining about money and contracts. Just my opinion.

Are you that James Austin guy on there?

Mike Kerns
06-09-2009, 01:51 PM
Are you that James Austin guy on there?

Nope.

Thorn
06-09-2009, 01:55 PM
Sorry Owen. I love your game. But with the way the world is right now, the last thing I want to hear is Athletes whining about money and contracts. Just my opinion.

My opinion as well, even before the current fiscal crisis.

DiehardChris
06-09-2009, 02:04 PM
If that's the real OD, sounds like you got yourself a scoop there! Nice job!

Texecutioner
06-09-2009, 02:09 PM
Nope.

Well that guy I mentioned is on there practically lecturing him on his facebook. Lol!

DiehardChris
06-09-2009, 02:14 PM
Well that guy I mentioned is on there practically lecturing him on his facebook. Lol!

Whoever that guy is doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

4Texans
06-09-2009, 02:24 PM
OD is a Holdout.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6466951.html

Texecutioner
06-09-2009, 02:27 PM
Whoever that guy is doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

Whether he does or not, he's looking pretty foolish trying to lecture and councel Owen Daniels on his myspace page. What an ass hat. Lol! If I were Daniels I would delete that guy pronto.

MeLoveTexans
06-09-2009, 02:38 PM
I am the Real OD's friend on facebook. i added him back in 2006. This was his status today. thought it was interesting

Owen Daniels unfairness on the texans side = me not showing up for practice. sometimes you just have to stick up for yourself.

ArlingtonTexan
06-09-2009, 02:50 PM
As a restricted free agent, Daniels has less leverage than does Dunta, but holding out of voluntary activities is one of the few things he can do that won't have a major impact on his pocket.

HOU-TEX
06-09-2009, 02:55 PM
Meh, as long as he signs his tender by the 15th, I'm good. That will leave plenty of time to get a deal finalized. He'll be at TC

Polo
06-09-2009, 03:03 PM
Texans will have a bunch of tough decisions to start making...

brakos82
06-09-2009, 03:06 PM
Meh, as long as he signs his tender by the 15th, I'm good. That will leave plenty of time to get a deal finalized. He'll be at TC
Exactly.

Mike Kerns
06-09-2009, 03:09 PM
Well that guy I mentioned is on there practically lecturing him on his facebook. Lol!

Was that the guy talking about "The Backbone of the NFL" or whatever? I didnt even finish reading it. It reminded me of some of the posters over on Clutchfans.

Texecutioner
06-09-2009, 03:13 PM
Was that the guy talking about "The Backbone of the NFL" or whatever? I didnt even finish reading it. It reminded me of some of the posters over on Clutchfans.

Yeah, he kept going on and on trying to reason like Daniels would really listen to what some random guy on facebook has to say. Lol!

Mike Kerns
06-09-2009, 03:16 PM
Yeah, he kept going on and on trying to reason like Daniels would really listen to what some random guy on facebook has to say. Lol!

The true definition of an Armchair GM. Like I said, theyre all over Clutchfans. Which is when my postings started going down over there.

Runner
06-09-2009, 03:18 PM
Trade him! He was never any good! The guys we drafted are obviously better! Make him prove it on the field!

or

None of the above. Business as usual in the NFL.

I'll go with the latter. It will be interesting to see if the team always takes a hard line with these situations, and how long they hold that line.

Texecutioner
06-09-2009, 03:21 PM
The true definition of an Armchair GM. Like I said, theyre all over Clutchfans. Which is when my postings started going down over there.

Now there is another guy on there lecturing him and another that is arguing with the other two. These guys are practically making a message board Texans Talk type of thing on his facebook page. It's ridiculous. Lol!

Mike Kerns
06-09-2009, 03:32 PM
Now there is another guy on there lecturing him and another that is arguing with the other two. These guys are practically making a message board Texans Talk type of thing on his facebook page. It's ridiculous. Lol!

I'm glad Facebook is blocked at my office (except during lunch hours) or, like a moth to the light, I would have to go look. What can I say? Seven years without a winning season has made me a glutton for punishment. :bat:

ArlingtonTexan
06-09-2009, 04:07 PM
Texans will have a bunch of tough decisions to start making...

Especially, as or (if) the texans continue to improve, not every player that the masses think is good is going to get re-signed. The better organizations have feel which player to keep and at how much. Overall, though while not comfortable when it is your team, all teams have issues with players and contracts at some point and the Texans are starting to have a couple.

Carr Bombed
06-09-2009, 04:15 PM
Sign Owen.....sign DeMeco.....franchise Dunta.

TEXANS84
06-09-2009, 04:31 PM
HOUSTON—You only need three words to describe Tuesday’s weather in Houston: “a real scorcher.”

“Add to that the possibility of some real high heat index numbers and also some very high UV index numbers,” Gomez said. “It’s going to feel like well over 100 degrees Tuesday afternoon.”
Contributing factor? (http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou090609_tnt_weather-houston-tuesday.62c0523e.html)

It would for me. That would be 9% of my decision not to show up for the rest of the week.

BeatDaTitans
06-09-2009, 04:47 PM
Just sign him please he is a valuble player on our team. I dont wanna hear this crap just sign for like 4 or 5 years and move on....Jesus!

Texecutioner
06-09-2009, 04:54 PM
Just sign him please he is a valuble player on our team. I dont wanna hear this crap just sign for like 4 or 5 years and move on....Jesus!

It isn't that simple. We don't know what kind of money he is asking for. If he is asking for top dollar TE money close to what Winslow got then that would be a really stupid deal and I'd have no problem either letting him walk, but would much rather the Texans trade him for a draft pick. He is a great TE, and all but he isn't worth the kind of money that Winslow got.

texanfan2002114
06-09-2009, 04:58 PM
This is what I posted on his facebook

"Hey OD!! I'm like many who have written on your wall in major support of you!! I've been a PSL holder for the Texans now for 7 years and finally see light at the end of the tunnel. Your one of the reasons why. We need you out there and I hope you guys can take care of your contract so you can get you azz on the field!! :-) Also you posted on May 31st that contracts talks "continue to be positive". Has there been a snag in contract talks or are you just trying to force Rick's hand for your June 15th deadline?"

Waiting for a response

Pantherstang84
06-09-2009, 06:02 PM
It isn't that simple. We don't know what kind of money he is asking for. If he is asking for top dollar TE money close to what Winslow got then that would be a really stupid deal and I'd have no problem either letting him walk, but would much rather the Texans trade him for a draft pick. He is a great TE, and all but he isn't worth the kind of money that Winslow got.

and just who gets to make that determination? You?

I would rather pay the Winslow type money to OD than to Winslow. If we trade away every player that wants more money then we will be in constant rebuilding mode. Who wants that?

Texecutioner
06-09-2009, 06:26 PM
and just who gets to make that determination? You?

That would be nice if it were so.

I would rather pay the Winslow type money to OD than to Winslow. If we trade away every player that wants more money then we will be in constant rebuilding mode. Who wants that?

It's not a comparison of who is better out of Winslow and Daniels. It's about is Daniels worth that kind of money, and the answer is no. That is to much money to be paying any TE. Just because the Bucs over paid their guy doesn't mean that we should pony up the cash and pay an insane amount of dollars just to keep our guy at TE, especially after the Texans just drafted two TE's with different types of skill sets that may do just fine for the same type of cheap money that we have been able to pay Daniels the last 3 seasons.

You need to read though. I never once said that I wanted to trade Daniels. I said that it would be a smart move IF he is going to demand top TE money like what Winslow got. Only if that is the case do I want to trade him.If we kept him one more season and he walks, then that would have been foolish for not trading him and getting some value for him.

It really just all depends on what he is asking for. I don't want the team to be all conservative at other positions of need to find a high calibur player because we invested all of our cash into the TE position with Daniels when we had Casey and the other guy there as well who could play for a lot cheaper. We still have to think about other positions.

GP
06-09-2009, 06:28 PM
I think I just pissed Owen Daniels off on Facebook. Whoops!



I replied:



He immediately replied:



http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/OwenDaniels?ref=nf

Sorry Owen. I love your game. But with the way the world is right now, the last thing I want to hear is Athletes whining about money and contracts. Just my opinion.

Good for you, Frak.

When will these rich players learn to lay low when they hold out, and spare us the "Gee golly, you fans know how it is...gotta' stick up for myself so I can bank a few more mill...."

Hold out, be absent, but shut the hell up already.

:goodpost:

Goldensilence
06-09-2009, 06:29 PM
and just who gets to make that determination? You?

I would rather pay the Winslow type money to OD than to Winslow. If we trade away every player that wants more money then we will be in constant rebuilding mode. Who wants that?

Good teams decide who is worth it versus who is asking for too much. That's why teams like the Patriots and Eagles don't mind letting top tier players walk but aren't always in rebuilding mode.

Two examples: Jeremiah Trotter and Deion Branch.

I keep up with the Eagles as my Fav NFC team and I remember the contract dispute that Trotter had with the Eagles. They let him walk to Washington where he struggled and eventually asked for his job back after getting cut after two bad years.

I remember the trade that sent a 1st rounder from the Seahawks to the Pats for Deion Branch. I laughed at the trade because there was no way he was worth that first rounder. Branch played great for the Pats but, I've seen a lot of players leave and struggle outside of N.E.

Not saying OD is not worth a fair contract but at the same time he works really well within this offense and that should be kept in mind as he entertains holding out more. He simply might not work well within another offense, and that's not indictative of the time or work he puts in. He's worked hard on being a good all around TE and he does deserve to get a pay raise for sure. I just hope he's judicial on what asking for Winslow Jr. money.

Pay DeMeco and OD, then see if we can get a good offer for Dunta.

Texecutioner
06-09-2009, 06:37 PM
Good teams decide who is worth it versus who is asking for too much. That's why teams like the Patriots and Eagles don't mind letting top tier players walk but aren't always in rebuilding mode.

Two examples: Jeremiah Trotter and Deion Branch.

I keep up with the Eagles as my Fav NFC team and I remember the contract dispute that Trotter had with the Eagles. They let him walk to Washington where he struggled and eventually asked for his job back after getting cut after two bad years.

Excellent example. The Eagles front office doesn't get near the credit they deserve for how well they handle their players. That Trotter move and how they got him back was pretty shrewd. They let him go and then he came crawling right back for a lot cheaper and played great for them when he acme back as well. I have a lot of respect for the Eagles management and how they handle things.

OD is a great TE for us, but we could possibly put in another guy like Casey who could do very well in this system as well. I'm not saying that I want to gamble on doing that, but if Daniels wants to handicapp us at other positions because we have to pay him to much money, then trade him and get some value and let's get Casey going. We still have plenty of other holes to fill and can't tie ourselves down because our TE wants a ridiculous contract like Winslow got where he is way over paid.

TimeKiller
06-09-2009, 07:13 PM
Hmm I'm betting this wasn't a surprise to Kubiak at all, probably even discussed.

Hey, he showed a lot more faith in the Office than 23 did by showing up for 2 weeks. He's a hell of a TE and a huge part of this team but no way is he tops in the league and if he's asking for tops money I'm passing. I have complete faith that the FO signs him to a reasonable, multi-year, incentive-laden, top-5 status contract before the season starts.

As much as people talk about teams taking the next step and making the playoffs I think most disregard the FO in saying it. Between these 3 contracts they will prove who they are as off-field managers just as teams like New England, Indianapolis and Pittsburgh have great teams AND FO's. I think we all see the on field stuff and have plenty of reason to be optimistic about the players and coaches and such but by the team taking that first step the office inevitably must follow. Keeping them with good contract negotiations will allow the team to build on the success we've seen since 2-14. They've built, now sustain and build again. That's how juggernauts are formed.

CloakNNNdagger
06-09-2009, 07:31 PM
It isn't that simple. We don't know what kind of money he is asking for. If he is asking for top dollar TE money close to what Winslow got then that would be a really stupid deal and I'd have no problem either letting him walk, but would much rather the Texans trade him for a draft pick. He is a great TE, and all but he isn't worth the kind of money that Winslow got.

Winslow isn't worth the kind of money that Winslow got.............

Runner
06-09-2009, 08:18 PM
It was short-sighted of OD to do any of the team workouts without a signed tender or new contract. He was assuming all the risk by showing up. He's shown the team his willingness to put out; the ball is in the team's court now.

I'd like to be able to say I'm surprised that a post has already been made suggesting an unproven rookie could fill OD's slot in "the system". I'm not. The dude is surprisingly easy to replace after being touted as a top five tight end for so long. I guess he's also "spouting off" to the press now because he gave his side of the story. It is a short distance from high character to spoiled athlete around here.

m5kwatts
06-09-2009, 08:47 PM
Is it just me or are back-to-back 8-8 seasons not enough to have this many whiny holdouts? I love Owen and Dunta but this is the kind of behavior thats warranted after a 10-6 or 11-5 season, not back to back 8-8's. The holdout pill would be a lot easier for fans to swallow if we were coming off of a gigantic season.

It just seems like these guys are counting their chickens before they hatch so to speak. Dunta and Owen--How about we go get it done and win some playoff games before you throw your hissy fits? If we end up going 7-9 or something because of these tantrums being a distraction then nobody's getting any money.

Mari-OWNED!
06-09-2009, 08:52 PM
I was pretty shocked to hear this news. Not sure what to think really. I just hope we give new contracts to Owen Daniels and DeMeco Ryans respectively.

Anyone else get the feeling like a lot of players on the Texans do not like GM Rick Smith?

Also if you hate this news, after this season Kevin Walter becomes a free agent... If he has another season like he did in 2008, we might have problems paying him the $$$ to keep him a Texan.

m5kwatts
06-09-2009, 09:01 PM
I was pretty shocked to hear this news. Not sure what to think really. I just hope we give new contracts to Owen Daniels and DeMeco Ryans respectively.

Anyone else get the feeling like a lot of players on the Texans do not like GM Rick Smith?

Also if you hate this news, after this season Kevin Walter becomes a free agent... If he has another season like he did in 2008, we might have problems paying him the $$$ to keep him a Texan.

I do get the feeling they dislike his handling of contract negotiations--which is dumb because its not his money he's dealing with--its Mr. McNair's his boss--but of course Dunta's agent didn't explain that to him before he blasted Rick

I anticipate Walter being in the 800-1000 yard range and 8-10 TD range again which of course could pave the way for a big pay day (or a franchising) when he's free next year---Pitts also is a FA and if the offense goes as it should he'll be in for a payday--and you can bet Brisiel and his people will be looking at whatever Pitts gets and ask for similar money as well as Schaub's deal will need to be revisited whether for a raise or for a restructuring

It could get messy all I hope is this drives them to be the best they can be in 09--I don't care if every player on the roster holds out next year if we win a Super Bowl

disaacks3
06-09-2009, 09:06 PM
It was short-sighted of OD to do any of the team workouts without a signed tender or new contract. He was assuming all the risk by showing up. He's shown the team his willingness to put out; the ball is in the team's court now.

I'd like to be able to say I'm surprised that a post has already been made suggesting an unproven rookie could fill OD's slot in "the system". I'm not. The dude is surprisingly easy to replace after being touted as a top five tight end for so long. I guess he's also "spouting off" to the press now because he gave his side of the story. It is a short distance from high character to spoiled athlete around here. Alright, let's not get carried away. DeMeco deserves his $$$ too and he's "on-board". OD will get his payday, but if he's holding out for Winslow $ (which should NEVER have been a realistic offer to ANY TE) he's kidding himself. He hasn't threatened (yet) to hold out "into" the season, so I have little issue with this for a vet who already knows his place in the system.

Dunta is another case altogether...and YES, I do consider his case to be spoiled athlete syndrome when you factor the nearly 10 mil he'll be making this year while coming off an injury AND not playing all that great at the end of last year to begin with. There's also the issue of a new DC and he needs the reps as bad (or worse) than any guy on the defense.

Runner
06-09-2009, 09:24 PM
Alright, let's not get carried away. DeMeco deserves his $$$ too and he's "on-board". OD will get his payday, but if he's holding out for Winslow $ (which should NEVER have been a realistic offer to ANY TE) he's kidding himself. He hasn't threatened (yet) to hold out "into" the season, so I have little issue with this for a vet who already knows his place in the system.

Dunta is another case altogether...and YES, I do consider his case to be spoiled athlete syndrome when you factor the nearly 10 mil he'll be making this year while coming off an injury AND not playing all that great at the end of last year to begin with. There's also the issue of a new DC and he needs the reps as bad (or worse) than any guy on the defense.


Who, besides "fans" making posts said he was looking for Winslow money? When fans make those assumptions just to have something to complain about, they seem far whinier than than the players. As soon as a player doesn't salute the Texans flag the tergiversation starts. As soon as he signs he'll be a great guy again, so I guess it evens out.

Lucky
06-09-2009, 09:32 PM
DeMeco deserves his $$$ too and he's "on-board". OD will get his payday, but if he's holding out for Winslow $ (which should NEVER have been a realistic offer to ANY TE) he's kidding himself.

Dunta is another case altogether...
DeMeco is under contract. Daniels is not. Neither is Robinson. Daniels and Robinson are not "holding out". They just haven't signed their tenders, yet. Which is their prerogative. When the Texans tagged these players, they did so with the knowledge that they might not have Daniels and Robinson's services for minicamps and possibly even training camp.

I'm not suggesting that the Texans should cave in to these players' contract demands. I don't even know what they are (nor does anyone else who posts here). I'm just saying that the Texans organization shares equal "blame" for Daniels and Robinson non-participation in team activities. Actually, there is no fault for either side. That's just the system that currently exists.

devo-x
06-09-2009, 10:14 PM
Another new word that I have not heard before "tergiversation" :thinking:

buddyboy
06-09-2009, 11:20 PM
It was short-sighted of OD to do any of the team workouts without a signed tender or new contract. He was assuming all the risk by showing up. He's shown the team his willingness to put out; the ball is in the team's court now.

I'd like to be able to say I'm surprised that a post has already been made suggesting an unproven rookie could fill OD's slot in "the system". I'm not. The dude is surprisingly easy to replace after being touted as a top five tight end for so long. I guess he's also "spouting off" to the press now because he gave his side of the story. It is a short distance from high character to spoiled athlete around here.

I really don't think OD would be as easy to replace as people make him out to be. For a while people were saying that Dreessen was as good as OD and would be able to take his spot...I'm not convinced. OD has proven himself in our system, and for that simple fact ALONE he is deserving of a contract, not something crazy, but maybe more than what the Texans offered him initially.

beerlover
06-10-2009, 03:18 AM
Both sides of the equation will come to a mutual agreement that fits into the collective bargining agreement.

I've always been in favor of paying for production, so if you produce you get paid.

Rick Smith should significantly increase the offer IF he meets certain benchmarks, like playoffs, top 5 TE in the league statisticly etc... & pay him as such.....same goes for DeMeco & Dunta @ their positions.

I think its just more of a wait & see attitude during uncertain times & people with idle time during off-season. :cool:

Specnatz
06-10-2009, 05:56 AM
It was short-sighted of OD to do any of the team workouts without a signed tender or new contract. He was assuming all the risk by showing up. He's shown the team his willingness to put out; the ball is in the team's court now.

I'd like to be able to say I'm surprised that a post has already been made suggesting an unproven rookie could fill OD's slot in "the system". I'm not. The dude is surprisingly easy to replace after being touted as a top five tight end for so long. I guess he's also "spouting off" to the press now because he gave his side of the story. It is a short distance from high character to spoiled athlete around here.

DeMeco is under contract. Daniels is not. Neither is Robinson. Daniels and Robinson are not "holding out". They just haven't signed their tenders, yet. Which is their prerogative. When the Texans tagged these players, they did so with the knowledge that they might not have Daniels and Robinson's services for minicamps and possibly even training camp.

I'm not suggesting that the Texans should cave in to these players' contract demands. I don't even know what they are (nor does anyone else who posts here). I'm just saying that the Texans organization shares equal "blame" for Daniels and Robinson non-participation in team activities. Actually, there is no fault for either side. That's just the system that currently exists.

The only reason OD is not under contract is because he did not sign his RFA high end qualifying offer, an offer which no player in the history of the league no player has ever turned down. He has yet to sign it because he wants a long term deal. Oh by the way because their is no CBA he would still be a RFA next year as well.

Why not sign the deal and work for a long term deal at the same time. The team still has to work out deals with draft picks as well. The timing seems odd. Especially, when the team is trying to work so many contracts at the same time.

threetoedpete
06-10-2009, 07:04 AM
Winslow isn't worth the kind of money that Winslow got.............

He's definitely a far cry from the father. So is Mike Brown....kinda makes you wonder about the two.

Well those of us scratching our heads about the back to back TE picks last month don't have to wonder anymore. I think the "why" is in our face. Look each one of these guys is a private independent contractor. Easy for us to say this is fair money do the deal. Times are hard....you're being pig headed. You're not being loyal. But it's Owen Daniel's body. It's his money. It's his decision. It's his situation. And these guys pass through this gate maybe one or two times in their careers. I remember being a younker and thinking how obscene Erick Dickerson was asking for the amount of money he was asking for. Looking back... it wasn't obscene at all. He was grossly under paid.

I think it's pretty funny thinking that a rookie.....no matter how good you believe he will be in the future, could possibly fill the whole that the loss of O.D. will represent to the Texans in 2009. We knew they were going to have to make a choice on a couple of our more productive players. It was inevitable. Can't pay everyone day one money.... franchise tag money. And on this team....Andre Johnson and Mario Williams dip their bread in Bob's gravy boat first.

I don't think O.D. is Shannon Sharp or Ozzie Newsome. But I also don't believe there is a rookie a live that will be able to replicate what O.D. brings to the table for this offense. No way. So both sides are dug in and we will see what happens. But there is no bad guy here. Both sides are correct from their points of view. Just like when they tazzered Weary. Two sides with their necks bowed out.....and neither side smart enough to make a compromise and defuse the situation. O.D. wants to be paid fairly...long term. The Texans do not won't to over pay for a TE.

Two things are for certain: If it's Kubiak who's got his neck bowed this pi$$ing contest is already over. You're not going to out dig in an Aggie. And obviously, our capologist knows what the hell he's doing. We're not busting the franchise's cap for one guy no matter how good he is. Or thinks he is.


My solution would be give him his million and promise not to franchise him next year. Both sides get what they want. O.D. gets his walking players and a long term deal in 2010 in an uncapped year from whomever. The Texans get congruency for 2009. The risk is on O.D.'s plate for sure. But if he's chasing the money....never going to have a better opportunity than an once a generation uncapped year to find the golden ring. And as we've seen with the Winslow deal....when it comes to the owners there is a never ending source of a suckers who'll bite the big one and over pay for a guy. And the players deserve every penny of it. I wish O.D. well what ever happens. He truly represents a good blue collar NFL, hard working soldier.

CloakNNNdagger
06-10-2009, 07:43 AM
I suspect that the multiple TE draft picks of 2009 was in anticipation of what the ludicrous Winslow contract would bring to the Daniels negotiations.

Hooston Texan
06-10-2009, 07:48 AM
My solution would be give him his million and promise not to franchise him next year. Both sides get what they want. O.D. gets his walking players and a long term deal in 2010 in an uncapped year from whomever. The Texans get congruency for 2009. The risk is on O.D.'s plate for sure. But if he's chasing the money....never going to have a better opportunity than an once a generation uncapped year to find the golden ring. And as we've seen with the Winslow deal....when it comes to the owners there is a never ending source of a suckers who'll bite the big one and over pay for a guy. And the players deserve every penny of it. I wish O.D. well what ever happens. He truly represents a NFL good, hard working soldier.

If 2010 is an uncapped year, that means, in all likelihood, that there is no new CBA. In that case, Daniels won't be a UFA. He'll have to wait until after his 6th season (2011) to be unrestricted. Now, I suppose the Texans could promise not to slap a tender on him next off-season, but that's a pretty steep concession to a player whose rights you still control for another two years.

Mike Kerns
06-10-2009, 08:01 AM
On the sportsflash on the radio, Kubiak made it sound like he didnt give a damn. He said something to the effect of "All that did was give reps to James Casey and Anthony Hill. They got a lot better today."

If Casey is all he is being hyped to be, OD should be worried about competing, not whining.

eriadoc
06-10-2009, 08:30 AM
Sorry Owen. I love your game. But with the way the world is right now, the last thing I want to hear is Athletes whining about money and contracts. Just my opinion.

Question for the board:

When do we get to complain about ownership whining about money and contracts? The team rakes in far more money than any player, they continually raise prices on tickets, parking, concessions, and miscellaneous stuff (PSL transfer fee, anyone?), and yet fans seem to complain about the players risking their bodies trying to get as much as they can. I don't know, it seems pretty f&^%ed up, if you ask me. The players should try for every bit of money they can get - the owners are. In this case, that's Rick Smith acting as agent for the owner.

Goatcheese
06-10-2009, 08:38 AM
Question for the board:

When do we get to complain about ownership whining about money and contracts? The team rakes in far more money than any player, they continually raise prices on tickets, parking, concessions, and miscellaneous stuff (PSL transfer fee, anyone?), and yet fans seem to complain about the players risking their bodies trying to get as much as they can. I don't know, it seems pretty f&^%ed up, if you ask me. The players should try for every bit of money they can get - the owners are. In this case, that's Rick Smith acting as agent for the owner.

When they're consistently leaving $10+ million in cap space. The Texans are usually right at the cap with just $3-5 million in wiggle room for mid season moves, added contract incentives, cap forwarding, etc.

If there were no salary cap Bob is the type of owner who would happily buy a championship.

Thorn
06-10-2009, 08:40 AM
As a nation, we pay more and care more about professional sports than we do educating our children. When teachers make more money and have better facilities and smaller classes than is the case today, then maybe I'll care about cry baby professional sports players.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but the salaries of professional sports players compared to other necessary jobs in our society makes me sick. It shows our twisted priorities as a society.

eriadoc
06-10-2009, 08:46 AM
As a nation, we pay more and care more about professional sports than we do educating our children. When teachers make more money and have better facilities and smaller classes than is the case today, then maybe I'll care about cry baby professional sports players.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but the salaries of professional sports players compared to other necessary jobs in our society makes me sick. It shows our twisted priorities as a society.

I get that, but why exclude the owners? They can be as capitalistic as they want and rake in money hand over fist, but the players can't?

eriadoc
06-10-2009, 08:48 AM
When they're consistently leaving $10+ million in cap space. The Texans are usually right at the cap with just $3-5 million in wiggle room for mid season moves, added contract incentives, cap forwarding, etc.

The afternoon guys on SR610 said on air that last season the Texans were 18th in the NFL in payroll, at about $109 million. They were 4th in terms of making money.

Thorn
06-10-2009, 08:59 AM
I get that, but why exclude the owners? They can be as capitalistic as they want and rake in money hand over fist, but the players can't?

I include owners, agents, players, fans who buy season tickets and merchandise, cable companies and product manufactures who buy commercial time on NFL broadcasts. All are guilty. That’s right, even me.

As I said, I put the blame on society as a whole for this situation. When we value a wide receiver or a quarterback more than a school teacher or a fireman, something is wrong.

eriadoc
06-10-2009, 09:08 AM
I include owners, agents, players, fans who buy season tickets and merchandise, cable companies and product manufactures who buy commercial time on NFL broadcasts. All are guilty. That’s right, even me.

As I said, I put the blame on society as a whole for this situation. When we value a wide receiver or a quarterback more than a school teacher or a fireman, something is wrong.

Well, you won't get any argument from me on that, as it's really the underlying reason why I don't fault the players any more than I do the owners. The money is there, and it's going to be divided, so if I were a player, I'd be fighting for my share as well.

The fact that the money is there in the first place is the underlying problem, but not something that the players or owners have any responsibility to fix, IMO. They sell a product and people have the option to not buy.

Thorn
06-10-2009, 09:11 AM
Well, you won't get any argument from me on that, as it's really the underlying reason why I don't fault the players any more than I do the owners. The money is there, and it's going to be divided, so if I were a player, I'd be fighting for my share as well.

The fact that the money is there in the first place is the underlying problem, but not something that the players or owners have any responsibility to fix, IMO. They sell a product and people have the option to not buy.

It's just one of those things that irratate me, but it's not like anything can be done, and it's certainly not going to keep me from watching the NFL, or hoping OD comes back into the fold.

It just pisses me off, that's all.

bigbrewster2000
06-10-2009, 10:07 AM
Another new word that I have not heard before "tergiversation" :thinking:

Yeah me either. I had to look it up. Websters definition

Main Entry: ter·gi·ver·sa·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌtər-ˌji-vər-ˈsā-shən, -ˌgi-; ˌtər-ji-(ˌ)vər-\
Function: noun
Date: 1570
1 : evasion of straightforward action or clear-cut statement : equivocation
2 : desertion of a cause, position, party, or faith

Thanks again runner for expanding our vocabulary. :)

dalemurphy
06-10-2009, 10:12 AM
It's just one of those things that irratate me, but it's not like anything can be done, and it's certainly not going to keep me from watching the NFL, or hoping OD comes back into the fold.

It just pisses me off, that's all.


There are plenty of football players who don't get paid well.. They just aren't in the NFL. Similarly, go find salaries of teachers at some of the elite private schools in the country and I think you'll be impressed with what they make. It's pretty silly to compare the salaries of millions of school teachers with the salaries of elite football players.

Clearly, you either don't understand or you resent capitalism. That's okay, though. That is a popular perspective these days.

HOU-TEX
06-10-2009, 10:17 AM
I don't understand why some of y'all are getting so bent out of shape. OD and Dunta will eventually sign their tenders and play for the Texans this season. There's really not much doubt in my mind that the Texans eventually reach a long term deal with OD and D-Ryans. Until then, they can either sign their tender's and play while deals are being worked out, or they sit home for the 09 season.

Practically every team in the NFL have been going through these situations for years. We have our first one and it's "X player needs to quit whining", "it's the Texans FO's fault" or "we can trade/cut player X because we have a rookie". Good grief

I, for one, don't give a frog's fat ass what OD, D-Ryans and Dunta get paid. It ain't my money. The only thing we fans should really care about is how it affects the cap. There are ways of giving certain players large deals with it still being cap friendly, no?

For those saying Dreessen, Casey or whoever could step in for OD, give me a freakin break. Hell, just last week everyone was saying pay OD and D-Ryans. Now OD holds out of freaking OTA's and he's being whiney and can move on without him.

My.02. Not that they're worth a damn

Pantherstang84
06-10-2009, 10:24 AM
I don't understand why some of y'all are getting so bent out of shape. OD and Dunta will eventually sign their tenders and play for the Texans this season. There's really not much doubt in my mind that the Texans eventually reach a long term deal with OD and D-Ryans. Until then, they can either sign their tender's and play while deals are being worked out, or they sit home for the 09 season.
Practically every team in the NFL have been going through these situations for years. We have our first one and it's "X player needs to quit whining", "it's the Texans FO's fault" or "we can trade/cut player X because we have a rookie". Good grief
I, for one, don't give a frog's fat ass what OD, D-Ryans and Dunta get paid. It ain't my money. The only thing we fans should really care about is how it affects the cap. There are ways of giving certain players large deals with it still being cap friendly, no?
For those saying Dreessen, Casey or whoever could step in for OD, give me a freakin break. Hell, just last week everyone was saying pay OD and D-Ryans. Now OD holds out of freaking OTA's and he's being whiney and can move on without him.

My.02. Not that they're worth a damn

Well sign me up for the pay OD, and Ryans camp. My beef with the DR situation is not necessarily that he is holding out. It is just that he has been a titty baby about the whole thing from the beginning. However, he hasn't been doing too much crying to Solomon lately. Maybe he is learning to just zip his trap and let his agent do the talking. That would go a long way with the fans.

GP
06-10-2009, 10:37 AM
Two things are for certain: If it's Kubiak who's got his neck bowed this pi$$ing contest is already over. You're not going to out dig in an Aggie. And obviously, our capologist knows what the hell he's doing. We're not busting the franchise's cap for one guy no matter how good he is. Or thinks he is.

Owen Daniels will have no problem bolting the Texans and running over to the next team that will pay him what he wants. So he has no allegiance to this team, nor does any other fan favorite on this or any other team.

Therefore, I could give a rat's patooty if he gets his coin from us. If it's not friendly to the cap, and we can get draft pick (or a player) compensation for Daniels...then there's no use in paying him top TE money.

Can the two rookies replicate what OD has? Probably not. It'd have to be a rare sort of thing--Like what Daniels did when we drafted him and he came out of the gates running.

The guy has high stock right now. He's only going to get older and start breaking down at some point, even though he's still relatively young right now. Another 3 or 4 years doesn't do anybody any good.

I don't see the Texans over-spending for a TE. Maybe they would for a QB, or a RB, or a WR, or Mario Williams. But not for TE.

His trade value vs. long-term value is what's being considered, IMO.

Polo
06-10-2009, 10:40 AM
I include owners, agents, players, fans who buy season tickets and merchandise, cable companies and product manufactures who buy commercial time on NFL broadcasts. All are guilty. That’s right, even me.

As I said, I put the blame on society as a whole for this situation. When we value a wide receiver or a quarterback more than a school teacher or a fireman, something is wrong.

What about strippers and prostitutes?

Many of them make more money than teachers...I'm pretty sure some here have spent money on one or both...

Personally, I don't blame anyone...If someone is willing to pay you, make your money...

HOU-TEX
06-10-2009, 10:42 AM
Well sign me up for the pay OD, and Ryans camp. My beef with the DR situation is not necessarily that he is holding out. It is just that he has been a titty baby about the whole thing from the beginning. However, he hasn't been doing too much crying to Solomon lately. Maybe he is learning to just zip his trap and let his agent do the talking. That would go a long way with the fans.

I agree on Dunta. He would've been better suited to keep quiet.

Can somebody copy and paste the "Quotes from Day 12" from HT.com and PM them to me? I'm still having problems opening links from the site.

Thank you

Polo
06-10-2009, 10:49 AM
I agree on Dunta. He would've been better suited to keep quiet.

Can somebody copy and paste the "Quotes from Day 12" from HT.com and PM them to me? I'm still having problems opening links from the site.

Thank you


(on TE Owen Daniels missing practice) “We’re obviously in the middle of a negotiation, and he is well within his rights to not come because these activities are voluntary. We’re wishing he were here like he was last week continuing to work with his teammates and we understand that. These things have a way of working themselves out. “


"We’re obviously in the middle of a negotiation, and he is well within his rights to not come because these activities are voluntary." - Rick Smith(on if he is bothered that there could be a trend of the team not being able to sign core players) “No, it doesn’t bother me at all. I think what’s important for us, number one, in this particular negotiation, is the reason why we’re talking is we feel like Owen is an important part of this football team. We talk about our philosophy in terms of building; you’re trying to take care of those young core players. We are doing that. And when you do that and when you negotiate, there’s a lot of variables that are in play and what you try to do is you try to come up with an agreement than benefits both sides. We’re in the process of doing that; that’s where we are. Sometimes those things are easier than other times. We’ve got a locker room full of players, so we know how to get deals done. So that doesn’t concern me.”

Head coach Gary Kubiak

(on TE Owen Daniels missing practice) "It's a voluntary workout and he's made a decision not to be here. If you've been in this league long enough, those things go on. It's part of the business. But it doesn't stop practice. We had a very good practice today. It doesn't stop when we have to be ready for a game in the fall. We just have to get back to work. There were more reps for Joel, and Anthony and Casey, so those three guys got better today."

Offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan

(on how he feels going into his second year as offensive coordinator) “It’s a little more fun being in my second year; not everything’s my first time. I’ve done it before, I know what to expect.”

(on if things have changed since last year) “It’s not much. You’ve got to stay on top of football; you’ve got to keep adjusting. But we get to return our starters, all eleven guys. We had a pretty good year last year, so we’re just trying to get better and a little more detailed.”

(on if he will be calling all of the plays) “Yeah, definitely. That’s what I expect my job to be.”

QB Matt Schaub

(on his relationship with Shanahan) “We are the same age, so you can relate well to one another as far as life goes. That helps us bond and be able to talk to one another one on one, and not like coach to player but like man to man, and be able to understand things and what we want out of the offense.”

(on the progress over the last three weeks) “Every day, we’re getting better and we’re coming together. We have a lot of you guys that are coming on board and they’re picking things up. We taught at a pretty slow pace this year—one install for every two days—but it helps us really. Everyone gets on the same page and we didn’t have the mental errors that you usually see early in OTAs, especially from young guys. It’s a way to come out and shake the rust off and get back in the swing of football.”

(on how he approaches the last week of OTAs) “We will just continue with what we’ve been doing - keep gelling together and keep meshing and hashing things out so when we get to camp, we’re full speed ahead and we don’t have to repeat things and relearn things. We’re full speed ahead and ready to go.”

(on how much farther along he feels this year than at this point last year) “So much further. You mention coming in healthy off last season, whereas last year I had that shoulder surgery and I was rehabbing that. I just feel more comfortable and confident in what I’m doing and what the coaches expect since last year. I just understand the offense that much more. We know what we want to do; we know what we’re good at.”

(on if he feels more sturdy this year) “I think so. You don’t know; it’s hard to tell until you get hit, but I feel strong in there and that was one thing I wanted to build up was my strength, getting stronger, and I think I did that.”

(on if feeling stronger has improved his confidence) “I think so, internally, you just feel that much more comfortable to stand in there an extra half-second to deliver that pass down the field and not be so quick to try and get out of the pocket.”

(on what new wrinkles we’ll see in the offense this year) “I’d like to say more quarterback runs, but I don’t know if that’s going to happen. No (laughs). You know, we know what we do well. We’re not going to try and deviate, we’re not going to try and reinvent the wheel. Our offense is what made us successful last year, so we’re just going to keep doing those things.”


HT.com

TEXANRED
06-10-2009, 11:07 AM
A TE's bread and butter and ability to make a pay check is what he is able to do in red zone situations. We finished in the 20's in points scored last year. IIRC correctly he finished with two or three TD's last year? We were in the Red a lot and he just hasnt shined at any point in his short career by scoring points. OD's success is due to the system he plays in. Dressen can do the same thing he can.

We went out in the draft and got ourselves a blocking TE and OD's replacement in Casey. TE is very, very deep on this team.

HOU-TEX
06-10-2009, 11:07 AM
HT.com

Thanks, man. Gotta spread the rep

HOU-TEX
06-10-2009, 11:15 AM
A TE's bread and butter and ability to make a pay check is what he is able to do in red zone situations. We finished in the 20's in points scored last year. IIRC correctly he finished with two or three TD's last year? We were in the Red a lot and he just hasnt shined at any point in his short career by scoring points. OD's success is due to the system he plays in. Dressen can do the same thing he can.

We went out in the draft and got ourselves a blocking TE and OD's replacement in Casey. TE is very, very deep on this team.

It's OD's fault we aren't scoring in the redzone? He can't throw himself the ball. Let's start by improving the run game and decreasing the amount of TO's in the redzone before we start placing blame on OD.

I'm sorry, but Dreessen doesn't even compare to OD. He'll be lucky to make the team next year if Casey proves he's ready.

OD is one of our core players. He isn't going anywhere.

dalemurphy
06-10-2009, 11:47 AM
Well sign me up for the pay OD, and Ryans camp. My beef with the DR situation is not necessarily that he is holding out. It is just that he has been a titty baby about the whole thing from the beginning. However, he hasn't been doing too much crying to Solomon lately. Maybe he is learning to just zip his trap and let his agent do the talking. That would go a long way with the fans.

Not that simple... what about Pitts, Walter, DRob, R.Butler... not to mention Slaton will be do a renegotiation soon, Bennett will be a RFA after the season, along with Diles and Jacoby Jones.

The organization has to handle this season very carefully. Because the '06 off-season was so good, what happens with that group of players will determine how successfully the franchise moves forward. Giving too much to those guys means trouble in the near future.

Texecutioner
06-10-2009, 12:06 PM
Winslow isn't worth the kind of money that Winslow got.............

Never said he was once. But the fact is that he got that deal, and that MIGHT cause Daniels to say "Hey, I think I'm better than him and I want that kind of cash too." If so, then I'll pass especially when the Texans just drafted a very good blocking TE and a multi dimensional pass catching utility type of TE.

The Texans are a conservative team, so if we were to pay Daniels chunks of cash, you can forget about them spending that extra money on other players on the defense like we really need them to right now. I'd rather that money go towards our offensive line right now or some holes that need to be filled on the defense. I'm not saying that we shouldn't give OD a nice pay raise because we should, but we've got a lot of depth at the TE position right now, and we might be able to still get quality production there.

Double Barrel
06-10-2009, 12:18 PM
I really don't think OD would be as easy to replace as people make him out to be. For a while people were saying that Dreessen was as good as OD and would be able to take his spot...I'm not convinced. OD has proven himself in our system, and for that simple fact ALONE he is deserving of a contract, not something crazy, but maybe more than what the Texans offered him initially.

I agree. I don't think OD is as easy to replace as many think, but that's just my opinion.

As a nation, we pay more and care more about professional sports than we do educating our children. When teachers make more money and have better facilities and smaller classes than is the case today, then maybe I'll care about cry baby professional sports players.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but the salaries of professional sports players compared to other necessary jobs in our society makes me sick. It shows our twisted priorities as a society.

I get that, but why exclude the owners? They can be as capitalistic as they want and rake in money hand over fist, but the players can't?

And don't forget, ALL of them make this kind of money because they get to play in taxpayer-funded stadiums. What other industry has cities building the facilities that let's them make this kind of money? Think of the jobs created if the city/county were willing to build a manufacturing center for IBM or other companies.

This country's obsession with entertainment is scary.

Hooston Texan
06-10-2009, 12:23 PM
Not that simple... what about Pitts, Walter, DRob, R.Butler... not to mention Slaton will be do a renegotiation soon, Bennett will be a RFA after the season, along with Diles and Jacoby Jones.

The organization has to handle this season very carefully. Because the '06 off-season was so good, what happens with that group of players will determine how successfully the franchise moves forward. Giving too much to those guys means trouble in the near future.

This is really a first for this organization. Other than AJ and pehaps Pitts--oh, yeah, and Carr--this is really the first time the team has had a player who, at the end of his rookie deal, was clearly in position to demand a hefty raise, and now we've got a number of those guys. This is what happens.

I'm not too worried about our TE productivity in Owen's absence. We will certainly take a step back, but that step isn't so big as to justify a Winslow contract. Forgive my plugging the Schaub bandwagon, but Matt made a number of tight ends--not just Heath Miller--look very good at Virginia. Patrick Estes and Kase Luzar never did a thing in the pro's, but they were quite productive when Matt was their QB. Another way to look at it: Daniels was far less productive in Sage's starts.

Daniels is clearly a plus tight-end, but the cupboard is hardly bare at the position. I'd hate for him to go--his jump move to set up the winning FG in Lambeau was brilliant--but we now have some hard choices to make.

Runner
06-10-2009, 01:02 PM
Can someone point me to the source of OD asking for Winslow type money? Barring that, can we stop implying that he did just to make him look bad and the team look smart?

I know, the answer is no to both.

I think it is just as likely that the team is resisting a fair long term offer since he can't go anywhere else for two years anyway. They have a big stick with the CBA issue, why not use it?

ArlingtonTexan
06-10-2009, 01:09 PM
And don't forget, ALL of them make this kind of money because they get to play in taxpayer-funded stadiums. What other industry has cities building the facilities that let's them make this kind of money? Think of the jobs created if the city/county were willing to build a manufacturing center for IBM or other companies.

This country's obsession with entertainment is scary.

Cities and counties make deals with large corporations all the time. Tax breaks, land and other perks are given as incentives to bring factories or corporate headquarters to a location is routine fare. They are not as public discussed and obvious as stadiums, but far from unusual.

DiehardChris
06-10-2009, 01:14 PM
Can someone point me to the source of OD asking for Winslow type money? Barring that, can we stop implying that he did just to make him look bad and the team look smart?

I know, the answer is no to both.

I think it is just as likely that the team is resisting a fair long term offer since he can't go anywhere else for two years anyway. They have a big stick with the CBA issue, why not use it?

There's no source. We've always said IF IF IF he's asking for Winslow money.

The problem is - his stats are BETTER than Winslow's, except for TDs, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to speculate that Owen's looking for a comparable contract.

What other reason would there be for a restricted FA to still be unsigned at this point? He's the ONLY unsigned RFA in the entire league.

Runner
06-10-2009, 01:23 PM
There's no source. We've always said IF IF IF he's asking for Winslow money.

The problem is - his stats are BETTER than Winslow's, except for TDs, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to speculate that Owen's looking for a comparable contract.

What other reason would there be for a restricted FA to still be unsigned at this point? He's the ONLY unsigned RFA in the entire league.



I know if if if. That's why I said "implying.

I presented another plausible reason at the end of the post you quoted.

disaacks3
06-10-2009, 01:35 PM
Who, besides "fans" making posts said he was looking for Winslow money? When fans make those assumptions just to have something to complain about, they seem far whinier than than the players. As soon as a player doesn't salute the Texans flag the tergiversation starts. As soon as he signs he'll be a great guy again, so I guess it evens out.
Alan Herman, one of OD's agents said: a barometer in these negotiations will be the contract extension tight end Kellen Winslow received from the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Link (http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/sports/090407_daniels_texans_contract)

But I guess Herman's just a disgruntled fan too? :rolleyes:

For the record, that was back in APRIL...

Exactly who is making assumptions about WHOM again?

Goatcheese
06-10-2009, 01:38 PM
The afternoon guys on SR610 said on air that last season the Texans were 18th in the NFL in payroll, at about $109 million. They were 4th in terms of making money.

Key term: Salary cap

2008 Cap: $114,521,131
Texans: $111,227,844
Texans cap space: $3,293,287

Runner
06-10-2009, 01:50 PM
Alan Herman, one of OD's agents said: Link (http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/sports/090407_daniels_texans_contract)

But I guess Herman's just a disgruntled fan too? :rolleyes:

For the record, that was back in APRIL...

Exactly who is making assumptions about WHOM again?

That is interesting.

And no, I don't think he's a disgruntled fan. I'm not one to keep twisting things so I can ignore new evidence and prove I'm smart because I can't change an opinion.

And yes, I still think posters make lots of assumptions to support their world view. I doubt everyone but me had seen that quote.

There is still a great deal of uncertainty to me if he would ask for as much as Winslow, or if being a reasonable person he might know that is out of reach but still ask for more than the Texans want to pay.

TEXANRED
06-10-2009, 02:27 PM
It's OD's fault we aren't scoring in the redzone? He can't throw himself the ball. Let's start by improving the run game and decreasing the amount of TO's in the redzone before we start placing blame on OD.

I'm sorry, but Dreessen doesn't even compare to OD. He'll be lucky to make the team next year if Casey proves he's ready.

OD is one of our core players. He isn't going anywhere.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree. OD benifits from a pass happy offense and having the best WR in the NFL playing next to him. OD is open cus the defense rolls to AJ.

And there where no lack of pass attempts in the RZ last year. A lack of getting open maybe......

eriadoc
06-10-2009, 02:27 PM
Key term: Salary cap

2008 Cap: $114,521,131
Texans: $111,227,844
Texans cap space: $3,293,287

So where were the 17 teams that spent more on payroll last year, and how does that compare?

hookinreds
06-10-2009, 03:22 PM
The Texans better lock OD in before the Chargers sign Gates to an extension...that's when you will really see the $$$ flying out the door. Winslow's salary will look like bus fare compared to what Gates will pull.

TimeKiller
06-10-2009, 03:50 PM
and if OD thinks he's even on the same terrain as Gates he's out his damn mind. Who is the great reciever to draw attention away from Gates again? Rivers is a good QB but it takes more than that unless you have freak talent like Gates, which OD does not in a million bazillion years have.

Good teams don't overpay. and if OD wanted a deal done by now it would be done. At least he has the self respect to not cry about it....

Goatcheese
06-11-2009, 06:02 AM
So where were the 17 teams that spent more on payroll last year, and how does that compare?

They probably spent more on coaches, and didn't have $10-15 million in dead money on the cap.

PhilpW
06-11-2009, 08:22 AM
Check out where OD is on the list of TE salaries for 2008.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=134

Texans_Chick
06-11-2009, 10:17 AM
There's no source. We've always said IF IF IF he's asking for Winslow money.

The problem is - his stats are BETTER than Winslow's, except for TDs, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to speculate that Owen's looking for a comparable contract.

What other reason would there be for a restricted FA to still be unsigned at this point? He's the ONLY unsigned RFA in the entire league.

The problem isn't him asking for Winslow money. We don't know what he asked for, but at the time the Winslow deal went down, OD's agent talked about the Winslow deal in the context of OD's negotiation:

Discussing Owen Daniels contract extension talks (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/04/discussing_owen_daniels_contract_extension_1.html)


"Herman (OD's agent) said a barometer in these negotiations will be the contract extension tight end Kellen Winslow received from the Tampa Bay Buccaneers."


The problem is that Winslow's money affects everyone's money. Winslow played like crap last year and has a huge injury history, so if Winslow gets that sort of money, the expectations for all good TEs change.

The Winslow contract complicates all negotiations because the Texans would prefer not to be as monumentally stupid as Tampa Bay.

Marcus
06-11-2009, 11:20 AM
The Winslow contract complicates all negotiations because the Texans would prefer not to be as monumentally stupid as Tampa Bay.

:thumbup

If Charlie Casserly was still running this circus, both Dunta and OD would be signed to long term contracts by now . . . to the detriment of the team via salary cap and a boatload of dead money.

The Texans now, I say now, are not any different from the 31 other teams. Everyone one of them are having the same issues at this time of year. This team didn't used to be that way, and the end result showed.

Now, if in fact OD's agent wants Winslow money, I think Smith should deal him for a draft pick and be done with it. And as far as Dunta goes, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's dealt before traning camp starts.

Runner
06-11-2009, 11:29 AM
Check out where OD is on the list of TE salaries for 2008.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=134

Another interesting post. Only a couple of spots below Billy Miller, ordered by cap hit.

The tender changes things for this year though. Total guranteed money carries more weight than a single season's salary too, I imagine.

ubecool454
06-11-2009, 11:46 AM
Should we be getting a little frustrated with Rick Smith? I mean I don't blame him for the Dunta situation but there is no reason OD and Demeco should not be getting good deals. What's the problem?

There is no problem....camp hasn't started yet and Demeco will be taken care of...Dunta may as well show up for camp and be ready to play because he is tagged and coming off a major injury he should understand the teams position...As much as I like OD he may be the most expendable of the three...I can't recall the source but I had heard the Bills want OD pretty bad...and we are pretty stacked at TE. If the Bills want to give up a first rounder for OD and pay him the bucks he wants...its a no brainer.

ArlingtonTexan
06-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Another interesting post. Only a couple of spots below Billy Miller, ordered by cap hit.

The tender changes things for this year though. Total guranteed money carries more weight than a single season's salary too, I imagine.

Really, by definition any mid to late round draft pick who performs well is going to be underpaid. don't think anyone is denying he should be paid more, exactly how much is the tough question Smith and OD agent are trying to figure out.

Battle Red Flash
06-11-2009, 12:00 PM
:thumbup

If Charlie Casserly was still running this circus, both Dunta and OD would be signed to long term contracts by now . . . to the detriment of the team via salary cap and a boatload of dead money.

The Texans now, I say now, are not any different from the 31 other teams. Everyone one of them are having the same issues at this time of year. This team didn't used to be that way, and the end result showed.

Now, if in fact OD's agent wants Winslow money, I think Smith should deal him for a draft pick and be done with it. And as far as Dunta goes, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's dealt before traning camp starts.

I totally agee with this. Rick Smith is just thinking of the future. (And we all need to calm down, it's only OTA's. No one's missed any training camp yet) New England operates this way. If they can't sign a vet for good money, they let him go.

Texecutioner
06-11-2009, 12:16 PM
:thumbup

If Charlie Casserly was still running this circus, both Dunta and OD would be signed to long term contracts by now . . . to the detriment of the team via salary cap and a boatload of dead money.

The Texans now, I say now, are not any different from the 31 other teams. Everyone one of them are having the same issues at this time of year. This team didn't used to be that way, and the end result showed.

Now, if in fact OD's agent wants Winslow money, I think Smith should deal him for a draft pick and be done with it. And as far as Dunta goes, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's dealt before traning camp starts.

THat's what I've been saying. If he wants those top dollars, then I've got no problem getting a first rounder for him or a 2nd and a 3rd or something. Next year's draft will be really really deep. We've got a lot of depth at the TE position, and I think we would be just fine actually.

NitroGSXR
06-11-2009, 12:35 PM
I include owners, agents, players, fans who buy season tickets and merchandise, cable companies and product manufactures who buy commercial time on NFL broadcasts. All are guilty. That’s right, even me.

As I said, I put the blame on society as a whole for this situation. When we value a wide receiver or a quarterback more than a school teacher or a fireman, something is wrong.
Why?

As far as I'm concerned... my tickets cost $35 each per game. I get tremendous value for my $35 dollars. 2 and a half days worth of slampacked fun squeezed out of $35 dollars.

I spend the day before the game shopping for and packing up gameday/tailgate necessities, loading up my minivan, laying out my schedule for gameday, reading up on player news... On gameday, I spend the morning getting pumped up the closer I get to Reliant, cooking, enjoying the various tailgates on my trek to the seats, getting to my seats early to guage the type of fans in my section, watching the game, enjoying the tailgates on my way back to our car, unloading and cleaning our stuff getting it ready for the next game... Waking up the next morning ready to praise or diss my Houston Texans among my coworkers and friends. The best part is that I do all of this with my 7 year old son. That's a pretty good value for 2 and a half excitement jam packed days. As a result of my decision to plunk away $35, I've grown and I found TexansTalk and spend so much time meeting decent and honorable people I'd be proud to call my friends. Man, I love the Houston Texans and sure am glad they're here for me to throw away $35 on. I don't know about you but I really think I've gotten tremendous value out of my $35.

How my $35 dollars translates into hundreds of millions of dollars is beyond my understanding. What I DO understand.... I'm pretty happy with what I get out of my $35 dollars. Schlitterbahn or Texans game? The choice is pretty easy for my family. It's just what we enjoy doing as a family! Does this make me a bad fan who's contributing to the outrageous salaries? I can't agree with that logic. I've got to spend $35 on something afterall.

Basically, Owen Daniels' and Dunta Robinson's beef with the front office isn't going to stop me from spending $35 a ticket. I'm real happy with the product they put out. I'll let Smith finish up his job before I comment on it. As far as I'm concerned, he's not finished. Lots to do before we field a team of 53 players. Even then, we've got the trade deadlines.

GP
06-11-2009, 01:15 PM
THat's what I've been saying. If he wants those top dollars, then I've got no problem getting a first rounder for him or a 2nd and a 3rd or something. Next year's draft will be really really deep. We've got a lot of depth at the TE position, and I think we would be just fine actually.

Agreed.

There's something about the idea of overpaying a TE (any TE!) when we might be able to transform that TE into extra draft picks...high-value draft picks.

It's a win-win-win: 1st win was grabbing Daniels in the first place and having him turn out like he did, 2nd win would be getting tremendous draft trade value for him, and the 3rd win is that some team out there pays him what he wants.

Win-wins are good. Win-win-wins are better.

Thorn
06-11-2009, 01:24 PM
Why?

As far as I'm concerned... my tickets cost $35 each per game. I get tremendous value for my $35 dollars. 2 and a half days worth of slampacked fun squeezed out of $35 dollars.

I spend the day before the game shopping for and packing up gameday/tailgate necessities, loading up my minivan, laying out my schedule for gameday, reading up on player news... On gameday, I spend the morning getting pumped up the closer I get to Reliant, cooking, enjoying the various tailgates on my trek to the seats, getting to my seats early to guage the type of fans in my section, watching the game, enjoying the tailgates on my way back to our car, unloading and cleaning our stuff getting it ready for the next game... Waking up the next morning ready to praise or diss my Houston Texans among my coworkers and friends. The best part is that I do all of this with my 7 year old son. That's a pretty good value for 2 and a half excitement jam packed days. As a result of my decision to plunk away $35, I've grown and I found TexansTalk and spend so much time meeting decent and honorable people I'd be proud to call my friends. Man, I love the Houston Texans and sure am glad they're here for me to throw away $35 on. I don't know about you but I really think I've gotten tremendous value out of my $35.

How my $35 dollars translates into hundreds of millions of dollars is beyond my understanding. What I DO understand.... I'm pretty happy with what I get out of my $35 dollars. Schlitterbahn or Texans game? The choice is pretty easy for my family. It's just what we enjoy doing as a family! Does this make me a bad fan who's contributing to the outrageous salaries? I can't agree with that logic. I've got to spend $35 on something afterall.

Basically, Owen Daniels' and Dunta Robinson's beef with the front office isn't going to stop me from spending $35 a ticket. I'm real happy with the product they put out. I'll let Smith finish up his job before I comment on it. As far as I'm concerned, he's not finished. Lots to do before we field a team of 53 players. Even then, we've got the trade deadlines.

I wasn’t complaining about anyone in particular, just the situation itself bothers me. I suppose my complaint isn’t just about football salaries and sports, but the priority that we place on things. It just seems to me that when you take a rich sports player or a famous actor or musician’s yearly salary, you could probably build a new elementary school and staff it for a year.

It’s not that anything will ever be done about it, and I’m not sure it’s worth complaining about. It’s kind of like living in Houston and bitching about the humidity. It’s just something that never ceases to irritate me when I think about it.

And it gets even more irratating when the economy is in the shitter like it is now, and sports players want more millions. There is something wrong with this picture.

Runner
06-11-2009, 01:33 PM
THat's what I've been saying. If he wants those top dollars, then I've got no problem getting a first rounder for him or a 2nd and a 3rd or something. Next year's draft will be really really deep. We've got a lot of depth at the TE position, and I think we would be just fine actually.

Why would a team give up a high draft pick(s) for a guy who is a product of the system and can be replaced by a fourth round rookie?

This is not a serious question.

Texecutioner
06-11-2009, 01:42 PM
Why would a team give up a high draft pick(s) for a guy who is a product of the system and can be replaced by a fourth round rookie?

Who says that he's just a product of a system? You? Well even if that were true, that doesn't mean every team thinks that. The bottom line is that he is highly touted as one of the top TE's right now and his value is very high. Teams use #1 draft picks for TE's all of the time that they expect to have his similar production and with a proven player like him, teams would be more willing to use a #1 draft pick on a proven player vs. non proven player with potential.

If not a #1 draft pick, possibly a 2nd and a 3rd perhaps. All it takes is one team and there are plenty of teams that could use a player like Owen Daniels that doesn't have any question marks.

Jackie Chiles
06-11-2009, 01:47 PM
:thumbup

If Charlie Casserly was still running this circus, both Dunta and OD would be signed to long term contracts by now . . . to the detriment of the team via salary cap and a boatload of dead money.

The Texans now, I say now, are not any different from the 31 other teams. Everyone one of them are having the same issues at this time of year. This team didn't used to be that way, and the end result showed.

Now, if in fact OD's agent wants Winslow money, I think Smith should deal him for a draft pick and be done with it. And as far as Dunta goes, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's dealt before traning camp starts.

I agree with the first two paragraphs here, the last one not so much. Dunta cannot be traded until he actually signs the franchise tag, same reason there has been zero progress for Peppers wanting to get out of Carolina. Even if we could trade him I don't think we would be exploring that option. Would it help us in the future? Probably. Being able to get future draft picks for him (or OD for that matter) would help us in the future if we make the decision not to keep these guys. Problem is we have to win this season and both of these guys will help us do that. I have been a big supporter of having Dunta play this one year for us and then trading him, and that would be ideal but it is probably a pipe dream. We are either going to pony up and resign him or this tag is a one year rental to help us get our first winning season/playoff appearance. I think the Texan's organization as a whole sees the light at the end of that tunnel and they know we have to knock that monkey off our back this year.

ArlingtonTexan
06-11-2009, 02:11 PM
Who says that he's just a product of a system? You? Well even if that were true, that doesn't mean every team thinks that. The bottom line is that he is highly touted as one of the top TE's right now and his value is very high. Teams use #1 draft picks for TE's all of the time that they expect to have his similar production and with a proven player like him, teams would be more willing to use a #1 draft pick on a proven player vs. non proven player with potential.

If not a #1 draft pick, possibly a 2nd and a 3rd perhaps. All it takes is one team and there are plenty of teams that could use a player like Owen Daniels that doesn't have any question marks.

Last Trades involving name TEs

Shockey (2nd and 5th)
Winslow (2nd and 5th)
Gonzalez (2nd 2010)

Runner
06-11-2009, 02:20 PM
Who says that he's just a product of a system? You? Well even if that were true, that doesn't mean every team thinks that. The bottom line is that he is highly touted as one of the top TE's right now and his value is very high. Teams use #1 draft picks for TE's all of the time that they expect to have his similar production and with a proven player like him, teams would be more willing to use a #1 draft pick on a proven player vs. non proven player with potential.

If not a #1 draft pick, possibly a 2nd and a 3rd perhaps. All it takes is one team and there are plenty of teams that could use a player like Owen Daniels that doesn't have any question marks.

No, it is definitely not me. That was just a comment about him being widely touted as a "top 5 tight end" since last season, until he wanted more money. That simple statement has now defined him as a "product of the system" almost as widely. Yes, I know I'm personifying message board group think instead of looking at it as myriad individual opinions, but I'm sure those opinions have overlapped within single posters.

I think he's a talented player that a smart team would try to keep if they are trying to progress. I'd like to think that he doesn't over value himself AND that the Texans are negotiating in good faith. However, I have my doubts that either of these statements is entirely true.

Texecutioner
06-11-2009, 02:32 PM
Last Trades involving name TEs

Shockey (2nd and 5th)
Winslow (2nd and 5th)
Gonzalez (2nd 2010)

Shockey didn't have the value that Daniels does. It was widely known that he had become a locker room cancer type and was constantly bitching without any reason to do so. Plus his numbers had been going down every season practically, and he has yet to have any season as good as his rookie season.

Winslow has had some major surgeries and many problems with his organization as well. He is known for being a TE that doesn't block either. I don't think his trade value is what Daniels could be.

Gonzo is a HOF and one of the best of all time, but he's got one to two years left at best, so he is not anywhere near comparable to what the value of a 4th year player like Daniels is.

I actually think that these examples you just presented make a stronger case that he could possibly be had for a 1st rounder because he should have more value than any of these other guys. He is younger than all of these guys and hasn't had any injury issues like the others and catches passes well and blocks well and has a good attitude. None of these examples have a better package than what Daniels does on paper.

eriadoc
06-11-2009, 02:42 PM
Agreed.

There's something about the idea of overpaying a TE (any TE!) when we might be able to transform that TE into extra draft picks...high-value draft picks.

It's a win-win-win: 1st win was grabbing Daniels in the first place and having him turn out like he did, 2nd win would be getting tremendous draft trade value for him, and the 3rd win is that some team out there pays him what he wants.

Win-wins are good. Win-win-wins are better.

That's like trading in a winning lottery ticket for another lottery ticket. That makes no sense. Draft picks aren't worth jack if you don't turn them into something. They already turned a 4th rounder into something and now you want to trade that something in for another chance at the lottery? WTH?

ubecool454
06-11-2009, 03:21 PM
I wasn’t complaining about anyone in particular, just the situation itself bothers me. I suppose my complaint isn’t just about football salaries and sports, but the priority that we place on things. It just seems to me that when you take a rich sports player or a famous actor or musician’s yearly salary, you could probably build a new elementary school and staff it for a year.

It’s not that anything will ever be done about it, and I’m not sure it’s worth complaining about. It’s kind of like living in Houston and bitching about the humidity. It’s just something that never ceases to irritate me when I think about it.

And it gets even more irratating when the economy is in the shitter like it is now, and sports players want more millions. There is something wrong with this picture.

Welcome to the NFL. We have never had this problem before as far as disgruntled players and contract problems. Most teams go thru this all the time so I guess we have really made it to the big time.

GP
06-11-2009, 03:58 PM
That's like trading in a winning lottery ticket for another lottery ticket. That makes no sense. Draft picks aren't worth jack if you don't turn them into something. They already turned a 4th rounder into something and now you want to trade that something in for another chance at the lottery? WTH?

It makes sense once your 4th-round TE wants to be paid a lot more money.

It all goes back to the win-win-win: Has he earned more money? Yes. Has he earned Winslow money? No, and neither has Winslow. Our front office has to determine who gets big money and who has to play at, or perhaps a little above, what they are really worth. Fans here are wondering if he wants just a little bit more money or if he wants crazy stupid lottery money.

As a team-first fan, I want the contract dollars to be juuuuust right. Not too hot and not too cold. As a fan, I don't want us spending a lot of money on a TE. If he wants a lot, we need to help him find a team who can pay it.

Meanwhile, we'll grab a high draft pick or two, however that scale works out, but the fact remains that players sometimes price themselves out of the range of a team's vision for what that player is worth.

There's a whole different way of handling these things with Rick Smith at the controls. Someone else said that it's better than the Casserly way of doing contracts. I agree with those thoughts.

So we'll wait and see. OD fits the TE role very well here. I hope he's retained. But it's not the end of the offense if he leaves.

NitroGSXR
06-11-2009, 04:25 PM
I wasn’t complaining about anyone in particular, just the situation itself bothers me. I suppose my complaint isn’t just about football salaries and sports, but the priority that we place on things. It just seems to me that when you take a rich sports player or a famous actor or musician’s yearly salary, you could probably build a new elementary school and staff it for a year.

It’s not that anything will ever be done about it, and I’m not sure it’s worth complaining about. It’s kind of like living in Houston and bitching about the humidity. It’s just something that never ceases to irritate me when I think about it.

And it gets even more irratating when the economy is in the shitter like it is now, and sports players want more millions. There is something wrong with this picture.
Absolutely but if they put on a good product, why shouldn't they reap the benefits from it? I guess that's a whole different discussion right there. I just didn't want someone looking down at me as a fan for buying season tickets. This issue is a whole lot bigger than a $35 ticket. A lot bigger.

Thorn
06-11-2009, 04:38 PM
Absolutely but if they put on a good product, why shouldn't they reap the benefits from it? I guess that's a whole different discussion right there. I just didn't want someone looking down at me as a fan for buying season tickets. This issue is a whole lot bigger than a $35 ticket. A lot bigger.


Yeah, and that's why I included myself in my rant. I used to be an Oiler season ticket holder. And a Gambler season ticket holder as well. LOL

Goldensilence
06-12-2009, 02:14 AM
It makes sense once your 4th-round TE wants to be paid a lot more money.

It all goes back to the win-win-win: Has he earned more money? Yes. Has he earned Winslow money? No, and neither has Winslow. Our front office has to determine who gets big money and who has to play at, or perhaps a little above, what they are really worth. Fans here are wondering if he wants just a little bit more money or if he wants crazy stupid lottery money.

As a team-first fan, I want the contract dollars to be juuuuust right. Not too hot and not too cold. As a fan, I don't want us spending a lot of money on a TE. If he wants a lot, we need to help him find a team who can pay it.

Meanwhile, we'll grab a high draft pick or two, however that scale works out, but the fact remains that players sometimes price themselves out of the range of a team's vision for what that player is worth.

There's a whole different way of handling these things with Rick Smith at the controls. Someone else said that it's better than the Casserly way of doing contracts. I agree with those thoughts.

So we'll wait and see. OD fits the TE role very well here. I hope he's retained. But it's not the end of the offense if he leaves.

Bolded part sums up my feelings. Great guy, great team player, hope to see the team act on good faith as well after he showed at OTAs. I want him to be rewarded for sure for really making himself into one of the better TEs league-wide. Just don't want to shell out Winslow type money and at the same time he's not a complete integral part of the offense like Tony Gonzo or Gates has been.

We've already overpaid for one guy this off-season anyway.

Double Barrel
06-12-2009, 11:39 AM
Bolded part sums up my feelings. Great guy, great team player, hope to see the team act on good faith as well after he showed at OTAs. I want him to be rewarded for sure for really making himself into one of the better TEs league-wide. Just don't want to shell out Winslow type money and at the same time he's not a complete integral part of the offense like Tony Gonzo or Gates has been.

We've already overpaid for one guy this off-season anyway.

With 70 receptions for 862 yards, I'd say OD is a pretty big part of our offense (more receptions and yards than Gates had last season, btw).

Unfortunately, the Winslow deal sets the new standard for TE contracts. If we are not willing to meet that standard, we will never have a consistently great TE and will be forced to rely on unproven young talent and hope for the best. The Winslow standard is going to screw a lot of teams up, IMO, but that's just business in the NFL.

disaacks3
06-12-2009, 11:48 AM
I'm not so sure that we can easily replace (much less upgrade) for OD, but the RFA tag that would dictate a 1st AND a 3rd for him would be worth a try if it came to that. The Texans aren't offering him chump change, and has already been said numerous times, NO TE is worth (at least IMHO) Winslow $$.

Long story short - I want OD back and I hope he and the F.O. can get their differences ironed out before training camp.

:texflag:

Polo
06-12-2009, 12:03 PM
I hope the team does not give in to any of the players...

I think it all comes down to "where do you want your big money spent"?

And I'm sorry, but for me, it isn't on Owen Daniels or D-Rob...I do hope the players realize that everyone can't get a max deal or super fat contract...

I'm not mad at the players for wanting to make their money, but at the same time I want the Texans to let these guys walk if they demand too much....

Goldensilence
06-12-2009, 12:05 PM
With 70 receptions for 862 yards, I'd say OD is a pretty big part of our offense (more receptions and yards than Gates had last season, btw).

Unfortunately, the Winslow deal sets the new standard for TE contracts. If we are not willing to meet that standard, we will never have a consistently great TE and will be forced to rely on unproven young talent and hope for the best. The Winslow standard is going to screw a lot of teams up, IMO, but that's just business in the NFL.

I guess I should've said a focal point of our passing game like Gates and Gonzo have been. The Winslow deal screwed a lot of teams for a standard. TB ownership is off the deep end. I hope we retain OD and I feel condfident both sides can work out a deal that is suitable to both sides.

dalemurphy
06-12-2009, 12:35 PM
The problem is that OD's production is among the elite TEs but he is not the kind of athlete that demands special attention. He doesn't have the size, speed, or athleticism to create consistent matchup problems for defenses. None of that says that he isn't valuable or that he's easily replaceable. However, a successful organization can't create an environment for players to succeed in and then pay them all as if they are elite talents. If we were to do that, we'd be consistently cycling in and out of cap hell.

The Pencil Neck
06-12-2009, 12:42 PM
The problem is that OD's production is among the elite TEs but he is not the kind of athlete that demands special attention. He doesn't have the size, speed, or athleticism to create consistent matchup problems for defenses. None of that says that he isn't valuable or that he's easily replaceable. However, a successful organization can't create an environment for players to succeed in and then pay them all as if they are elite talents. If we were to do that, we'd be consistently cycling in and out of cap hell.

I think that's what happens with the Eagles. So many of their defensive players look so great in that Eagle D and then go somewhere else and stink up the joint. Then when/ikf they get back to the Eagles (like Trotter), they usually start playing well again.

Like you said, the Eagles don't usually pay those guys because they know that a lot of their success is because of the system.

I don't know if that's the case with OD. I know that Dreessen has looked good in spot duty. But I don't think this is an issue, yet. OD wants a long term deal and I want him to have a long term deal. But he's still basically under contract.

I think they're going to work it out.

Runner
06-12-2009, 12:54 PM
The problem is that OD's production is among the elite TEs but he is not the kind of athlete that demands special attention. He doesn't have the size, speed, or athleticism to create consistent matchup problems for defenses. None of that says that he isn't valuable or that he's easily replaceable. However, a successful organization can't create an environment for players to succeed in and then pay them all as if they are elite talents. If we were to do that, we'd be consistently cycling in and out of cap hell.

On the other hand, it is hard for a team to get above average if they consistently get rid of above average performers.

There is a large amount of room between the Texans tender with no long term guarantee and Winslow's high end contract. There is room for negotiation of a fair offer that doesn't break the bank. Both sides have to be interested in finding it.

sbalderrama
06-12-2009, 01:31 PM
The problem is that OD's production is among the elite TEs but he is not the kind of athlete that demands special attention. He doesn't have the size, speed, or athleticism to create consistent matchup problems for defenses. None of that says that he isn't valuable or that he's easily replaceable. However, a successful organization can't create an environment for players to succeed in and then pay them all as if they are elite talents. If we were to do that, we'd be consistently cycling in and out of cap hell.

I'm sure DC's around the league are all saying, "yeah, Owen has outstanding production, but we will ignore him because even with all that production he really isn't a matchup problem for us."

dalemurphy
06-12-2009, 02:08 PM
I'm sure DC's around the league are all saying, "yeah, Owen has outstanding production, but we will ignore him because even with all that production he really isn't a matchup problem for us."

sarcasm aside, that is exactly what they are doing when they role coverage towards AJ and focus on stopping Slaton, biting hard on playaction- thereby leaving OD singled up on a LB.

I really like OD and wasn't diminishing his accomplishments. I love that he has become a solid blocker, gets open, makes almost every catch and has become pretty good after the catch. That being said, show me tape of OD being double-teamed by a LB and S or show me where he regularly beats a CB or cover safety in man situations... there aren't many. The Texans simply can't pay OD like an elite TE. It will lead to too many problems down the road, IMO.

Goatcheese
06-12-2009, 02:21 PM
sarcasm aside, that is exactly what they are doing when they role coverage towards AJ and focus on stopping Slaton, biting hard on play- thereby leaving OD singled up on a LB.

I really like OD and wasn't diminishing his accomplishments. I love that he has become a solid blocker, gets open, makes almost every catch and has become pretty good after the catch. That being said, show me tape of OD being double-teamed by a LB and S or show me where he regularly beats a CB or cover safety in man situations... there aren't many. The Texans simply can't pay OD like an elite TE. It will lead to too many problems down the road, IMO.

The Texans are going to have to pay OD like a top 5 TE because that's what he is. There are only 3 guys that I would clearly say are better. Gonzo, Gates, and Witten. OD is arguably the best of the tier 2 TEs active in the league right now. Of course as a tier 2 TE he needs to forget about the Winslow contract and his hope of being the highest paid TE in the NFL.

Joe Texan
06-12-2009, 02:58 PM
whatever they think he is worth they better pay his ass

Honoring Earl 34
06-12-2009, 03:04 PM
whatever they think he is worth they better pay his ass

I'm thinking that two things play into this .

1. The Winslow deal .

2. They think they can plug in Casey next year for less .

Wolf
06-12-2009, 03:34 PM
I'm thinking that two things play into this .

1. The Winslow deal .

2. They think they can plug in Casey next year for less .

exactly I have mixed feeling on it, but I think it is mainly due the unknown future and how we drafted .. we have only 3 drafts with this regime ..and while i have confidence in them, I still have doubts (I am a natural pessimist) .. I hate the patriots but seems situations like this, patriots find ways of getting teams to bite and their system is plug and play baby. plug and play..

Now I would like OD to stay here.

Now I am starting to over analyze, seems the Texans planned for this, we drafted 2 TE's this year, if they will pan out will be the issue and obviously their development determines what we do with OD

I know, I know captain obvious reporting for duty

dalemurphy
06-12-2009, 03:50 PM
exactly I have mixed feeling on it, but I think it is mainly due the unknown future and how we drafted .. we have only 3 drafts with this regime ..and while i have confidence in them, I still have doubts (I am a natural pessimist) .. I hate the patriots but seems situations like this, patriots find ways of getting teams to bite and their system is plug and play baby. plug and play..

Now I would like OD to stay here.

Now I am starting to over analyze, seems the Texans planned for this, we drafted 2 TE's this year, if they will pan out will be the issue and obviously their development determines what we do with OD

I know, I know captain obvious reporting for duty

In the end, I think OD's agent realized this last OTA was their last shot to pressure the Texans. Starting Monday, the Texans can rescind their RFA tender and offer him a 10% raise over last season's tiny salary. At that point, he has no options other than to eventually sign that deal. In addition to that, because of the collective bargaining situation, there is also a significant risk that he won't be able to hit UFA next year, either. I expect him to sign his RFA tender and report to camp on Monday.

noxiousdog
06-12-2009, 03:53 PM
I'd rather have KWalter re-signed

This can't be understated. OD may be a fantastic tight end. But at the end of the day, he's still a tight end.

Kevin Walter had more yards and more touchdowns than did Daniels.

You don't pay your 5th most productive skill player silly money.

Texecutioner
06-12-2009, 03:59 PM
DRob
Pitts
KWalter
DRyans
ODaniels
KBentley
R.Butler

are all scheduled to be UFA after the season. It simply isn't realistic to expect the Texans to sign them all... certainly to sign them all and without conflict, especially given the collective bargaining climate.

I know you wear funny stuff on your head and are a popular tailgater but you sure make a lot of oversimplified statements on the boards that give the impression that you don't really know much about the game you are so passionate about.

I hope they reach agreement with OD as well. But, I certainly don't want the front office to sign him, regardless of what it takes to do so... I'd rather have KWalter re-signed, work with the combination of Dressen, Hill, and Casey at TE, and be able to extend Slaton and get guys like Butler and Bentley re-signed... Rather than, pay up for OD and be unable to take care of other players.

Exactly. We have to think about the scope of the entire team before we go all in at the TE position. We have to many other important pieces to think about other than a position that we have pretty good depth at currently. We also still have a few holes on defense like at Safety and could use a better CB and possibly a better DT if Okoye doesn't revert back to his rookie form or better and Okam and Johnson are still average players at best. We could possibly address this with a draft pick that we could possibly get for Daniels and just might still have high quality production at TE with Casey.

I think everyone wants to keep Daniels, but if the price is to high, we have to think about the entire team first.

dalemurphy
06-12-2009, 04:05 PM
This can't be understated. OD may be a fantastic tight end. But at the end of the day, he's still a tight end.

Kevin Walter had more yards and more touchdowns than did Daniels.

You don't pay your 5th most productive skill player silly money.

Again, and sorry to belabor the point, but KWalter will be an UFA regardless of what happens with the collective bargaining agreement this year, and he may be a UFA when there is no salary cap.

On the other hand, if a new agreement isn't reached, then OD will be a RFA again next year and in 2011, and only be guaranteed a 10% raise off of his current salary. Considering that he was only a 4th round pick, at some point, he's going to be compelled to take a reasonable offer in order to secure his millions.

NFL teams have more leverage this year with 3 year players than they've had since the beginning of NFL free agency. The players and agents are all balking right now, but as the season gets closer, these guys are going to be forced into taking less than top dollar deals.

Lucky
06-14-2009, 11:00 AM
Check out where OD is on the list of TE salaries for 2008.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=134
Thanks for the link.

Lance Zierlein has some interesting things to say regarding the Daniels/Texans contract negotiations in his blog at the Chronic (http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2009/06/in_the_case_of_owen_daniels_vs.html).

I think many readers are missing out on one point. While Winslow's contract isn't something that OD is going to get or even deserves, it is a barometer that EVERY TEAM AND AGENT IN THE LEAGUE now have to be aware of and possibly work off of.

Let's say that everyone wants Daniels to take the same deal Chris Cooley took in 2007 because they think that is more fair since he plays on Cooley's level. What happens if Daniels agrees to that deal, but behind the scenes, Cooley is in the process of re-doing his deal with the Redskins because the Skins recognize that Cooley's market value has changed thanks to Dallas Clark's deal and Winslow's deal? Then, OD's contract would be really outdated.

This same thing happened with Jason Peters. His agent agreed to a bad deal too early in advance and his contract was outdated within a year and he was pissed about it. Eventually it because a big issue for the Bills and they had to deal Peters (probably the top LT in the league) to the Eagles. Agents have to work off of recent contracts or they will get fired, period.For inquiring minds that did know know the details of Winslow's contract extension, they are available at Rotoworld (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=2772).

Signed a six-year, $36.1 million contract. The deal contains $20.1 million guaranteed, including his 2009 and 2010 salaries. Winslow's 2011 base salary is guaranteed for injury, but not for skill. Another $7 million is available through incentives.
2009: $5.17 million,
2010: $6.725 million,
2011: $8.29 million,
2012-2014: Under Contract,
2015: Free AgentSo Winslow gets $20.1 million over the initial 2 years of the contract ($11.9mil in salary, $8.2mil in bonus). That sounds outrageous. But you need to remember that the Bucs were $30something million under the cap, and needed to spend $$$ just to get above the salary cap floor (that like the cap, won't exist in 2010 as the CBA currently stands).

But did Winslow's deal really raise the bar on TE contracts? Dallas Clark received a similar deal in 2008 from the Colts.

2008: $11 million bonus, $605K salary
2009: Another bonus of $8.2 million, $3.3 million salary
2010: $4 million
2011: $4.2 million
2012: $4.53 million
2013: $5.33 million
2014: Free Agent

Clark will actually get more $$$ over the first 2 years of the contract than Winslow will earn. Take into account the extension Antonio Gates will get this offseason, and that Jason Witten will look to redo his deal, and it's apparent that TEs are beginning to get paid. It's now a glamor position. The cost for TEs have exploded, and are only going to rise.

Many will say that Daniels will have to come down on his price, because he could be a RFA for 2 more seasons. That's not realistic. Eventually, the NFL and the NFLPA will come to an agreement. As the players begin to understand how damaging an uncapped (and non-floored) year could be to their pocketbooks, a deal will likely be reached. Quite possibly prior to the dreaded 2010 offseason. Daniels could become an unrestricted free agent by next year. And with the monster deals TEs are receiving, franchising him would not be cheap. The Texans are in a very difficult position in terms of allocating resources for personnel and developing a reputation of rewarding their own players.

The Pencil Neck
06-14-2009, 12:26 PM
I've tried to stay out of these contract negotiation threads as much as possible other than to say that I'm not too worried and that everything will work out. One way or another. I expect OD and Demeco to get long term deals and I expect Dunta to have to play this year franchised to prove he's really back.

But all of this stuff is just normal contract negotiations. Both sides are trying to get the best deal for them. That's their jobs. I don't hold that against anyone, especially the players. There's an old saying, you don't get paid what you deserve, you get paid what you negotiate. Everybody's got to try to get the best deal they can. There's no sin in that.

The player's agents have to have an idea of what their players are worth on the open market and they've got to work with the players to come up with a basic minimum contract they'll sign for. Then they've got to try to get as much as they can but if they can't get more than that minimum, they've got to look at withholding their services.

For us fans, we want our players to be all about the team. We're all about the team. But in contract negotations, if you're all about the team, the team will use you and spit you out.

On the flip side, the team can't just cave in to player's demands or the team will end up in cap hell, paying too much for marginal players with a ton of dead money and unable to improve because there's no room. The team has to do what's best for the team and sometimes that means paying guys to stay and sometimes that means ditching guys (one way or another) and moving on.

So, let's let this just all work itself out and see what we've got when things get closer to being real.

WWJD
06-14-2009, 05:10 PM
He signed the tender offer.

Just keep working on a longer term contract...got to be some middle ground somewhere.

JCTexan
06-14-2009, 05:44 PM
He signed the tender offer.


Yep:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6478391.html

Pro Bowl tight end Owen Daniels has signed his one-year, $2.79-million tender with the Texans, but his agents, Alan Herman and David Butz, will continue negotiations on a multiyear contract they hope will make him one of the NFL’s highest-paid players at his position.

Daniels, a third-year restricted free agent who caught a career-high 70 passes for 862 yards last season, skipped the last week of organized team activities because he’s been unhappy that a new deal hasn’t been reached.

Those familiar with the negotiations said the Texans made a new offer last week that would rank Daniels second among the league’s highest-paid tight ends. Figures were not available.

The three most important parts of a contract are guaranteed money, income over the first three years and average per year. The total value of a contract isn’t as important because players usually get extensions before they expire.

Tampa Bay’s Kellen Winslow ($20.1 million) is first among tight ends in guarantees. After he was traded from Cleveland to the Buccaneers this year, he signed a six-year, $36.1-million contract.

Indianapolis’ Dallas Clark ($27 million) receives the most money over the first three years of his contract. He signed a six-year, $36-million deal last year.

Atlanta’s Tony Gonzalez ($7 million per year) leads in average per year because of the five-year, $35-million extension he signed with Kansas City two years ago.

Daniels hasn’t been available since he skipped the OTAs, but he did comment on his contract situation on the first day of the offseason program.

“I’d be a little upset,” Daniels said in May about the possibility of playing for the one-year, $2.79-million tender. “I think I’ve earned more than a one-year (contract). I see myself being here for a long time. I don’t want to be anywhere else, but every player wants security.”

CloakNNNdagger
06-14-2009, 06:59 PM
Yep:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6478391.html

With the type of contract Owens is expecting to be worked out based on already ridiculously unjustifiable levels out there, I wouldn't rule out a trade in his future.

GP
06-14-2009, 08:10 PM
I think everyone wants to keep Daniels, but if the price is too high, we have to think about the entire team first.

That's where I am at.

He's a Tight End.

I like how he can get Schaub out of a jam when the blitz is on. But I'm not sure that he gets a big payday for that.

A reasonable payday is OK, but not anywhere near the same contract that Winslow got.

NitroGSXR
06-14-2009, 08:17 PM
Maybe this is a dumb question to many of you but it'd be dumber not to ask.

Now that he has signed his tender... if him and the team come to a long term deal, what bexomes of the tender that he signed? Will they rip that up and pay him for the season despite him already earning paychecks? Like back pay? Or does a new contract begin on the day it's signed?

Hope I made sense? I think I just confused myself...

Jackie Chiles
06-14-2009, 08:25 PM
That's where I am at.

He's a Tight End.

I like how he can get Schaub out of a jam when the blitz is on. But I'm not sure that he gets a big payday for that.

A reasonable payday is OK, but not anywhere near the same contract that Winslow got.

I don't know if I agree with not giving him a big payday because of the position he plays. I think its ok to spend, maybe even overspend, for talent and OD is a talent. I would rather overpay for a talented TE than overpay for an average (for example) LT just because that position is valued more highly. We will get into trouble if we pay average players big money like we have in the past, I have no problem giving talented players nice contracts.

Another reason I would pay him is because I highly doubt OD has hit his ceiling yet, he will continue to mature as a blocker and as our offense continues to evolve he will make more plays. If we make him the 2nd highest paid TE today he will probably be the 5th or so highest paid in 2-3 years. He is a core guy on offense IMO.

Ckw
06-14-2009, 09:05 PM
Those familiar with the negotiations said the Texans made a new offer last week that would rank Daniels second among the league’s highest-paid tight ends. Figures were not available.

Did anyone else catch this quote from the link above?!? He turned down an offer to be the 2nd highest paid TE in the NFL?!? I really hope this isn't true otherwise I am really going to be wondering about some of our players, but especially OD and Dunta.

This is a team that has never had a WINNING season. 8-8 the past two years shouldn't get your players paid like the best players in the league, outside of Mario Williams and Andre Johnson. I really hope this is an inaccurate quote otherwise OD is nuts.

dtran04
06-14-2009, 09:23 PM
PFT talk says that OD is represented by same group as Dunta. Makes alot more sense now. There's alot of hurt feelings and egos at hand with the agents along with Rick Smith.

Buffi2
06-14-2009, 09:36 PM
PFT talk says that OD is represented by same group as Dunta. Makes alot more sense now. There's alot of hurt feelings and egos at hand with the agents along with Rick Smith.

My first thought here is that OD and Dunta need to find another agent. This group isn't helping themselves, the players, or the Texans. The sitting out part is just bad advice for everyone. It seems to me you play, practice and if you don't get the contract you want - you are ready to go play for someone who will pay you what you think you are worth.

I am glad OD signed. I feel better now.

Honoring Earl 34
06-14-2009, 10:38 PM
Did anyone else catch this quote from the link above?!? He turned down an offer to be the 2nd highest paid TE in the NFL?!? I really hope this isn't true otherwise I am really going to be wondering about some of our players, but especially OD and Dunta.

This is a team that has never had a WINNING season. 8-8 the past two years shouldn't get your players paid like the best players in the league, outside of Mario Williams and Andre Johnson. I really hope this is an inaccurate quote otherwise OD is nuts.

If he and Dunta have the same agent , then they are trying to play the Texans . I think Dunta was offered the same deal as Chris Gamble and he didn't take it . Now OD is turning down being the second highest paid TE in the leauge . I'm betting they rue the day they hired their agents .

CloakNNNdagger
06-14-2009, 10:52 PM
Maybe this is a dumb question to many of you but it'd be dumber not to ask.

Now that he has signed his tender... if him and the team come to a long term deal, what bexomes of the tender that he signed? Will they rip that up and pay him for the season despite him already earning paychecks? Like back pay? Or does a new contract begin on the day it's signed?

Hope I made sense? I think I just confused myself...

NOt a dumb question at all. If OD signs a new contract, his old contract is torn up. The terms of the new contract, determined by both parties, would determine what period of time the new contract would encompass (possibly retro to the signing if agreed upon).

NitroGSXR
06-14-2009, 11:04 PM
NOt a dumb question at all. If OD signs a new contract, his old contract is torn up. The terms of the new contract, determined by both parties, would determine what period of time the new contract would encompass (possibly retro to the signing if agreed upon).

Thank you for responding.

The reason why I ask this is because I've never noticed contracts beginning on specific days but rather specific seasons. I say this because of fantasy sports and their contract standards. When one looks up contracts they're pretty much done by seasons. I never considered those who reneogitate their contracts such as the one the Andre Johnson did a couple years ago and with the fact that Owen Daniels signed his tender despite intent on continuing talks on a long term.

Really an interesting subject to me. Seems to me that contracts in the NFL are more of a permission slip to play ball. They're not worth the dollars they ink in there (outside of guaranteed dollars). Fascinating way of doing business if you ask me.

alphajoker
06-14-2009, 11:16 PM
Per the Chron:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6478391.html

JCTexan
06-14-2009, 11:28 PM
Per the Chron:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6478391.html

Guess you didn't see my post earlier?

El Tejano
06-14-2009, 11:28 PM
This is good to know. The team can get him back on the field and now the agents and FO can do the negotiating. This shows that OD really wants to be here.

NitroGSXR
06-14-2009, 11:45 PM
NOt a dumb question at all. If OD signs a new contract, his old contract is torn up. The terms of the new contract, determined by both parties, would determine what period of time the new contract would encompass (possibly retro to the signing if agreed upon).

Thank you for responding.

The reason why I ask this is because I've never noticed contracts beginning on specific days but rather specific seasons. I say this because of fantasy sports and their contract standards. When one looks up contracts they're pretty much done by seasons. I never considered those who reneogitate their contracts such as the one the Andre Johnson did to help the Texans a couple years ago and with the fact that Owen Daniels signed his tender despite intent on continuing talks on a long term contract with mega dollars. Then we have McNabb's contract being inflated in exchange of an extension.

Really an interesting subject to me. Seems to me that contracts in the NFL are more of a permission slip to play ball. They're not worth the dollars they ink in there (outside of guaranteed dollars). Fascinating way of doing business if you ask me. Why even do with contracts? Just issue them all permission slips.

edo783
06-14-2009, 11:46 PM
This is good to know. The team can get him back on the field and now the agents and FO can do the negotiating. This shows that OD really wants to be here.

Not really. It does show that he didn't want his offer to drop to something like 500K, which it could have if he didn't sign by the 15th. The good thing here is that it buys more time to work out a deal. The bad news is that both he and Dunta are represented by the same group, which now starts to make sense as to why they are acting like they are. I suspect that their representation thinks they have the Texans in some sort of hard spot with what seems to be two of their top player being represented by them, so they are trying to jerk the Texans around. There also seems to be some sort of pissing contest going on between the agent group and GM Smith. Based on what has been purported in the press both guys were offered MORE than fair deals for their positions and level of play. These agents are screwy if they think either of them is worth the most money of anyone in the league at their respective positions.

TimeKiller
06-15-2009, 12:05 AM
Wow, denied 2nd highest in the league? C'mon now. This is getting stupid.

Ckw
06-15-2009, 12:11 AM
Wow, denied 2nd highest in the league? C'mon now. This is getting stupid.

My thoughts exactly. I really hope this isn't true.

GP
06-15-2009, 12:51 AM
I don't know if I agree with not giving him a big payday because of the position he plays. I think its ok to spend, maybe even overspend, for talent and OD is a talent. I would rather overpay for a talented TE than overpay for an average (for example) LT just because that position is valued more highly. We will get into trouble if we pay average players big money like we have in the past, I have no problem giving talented players nice contracts.

Another reason I would pay him is because I highly doubt OD has hit his ceiling yet, he will continue to mature as a blocker and as our offense continues to evolve he will make more plays. If we make him the 2nd highest paid TE today he will probably be the 5th or so highest paid in 2-3 years. He is a core guy on offense IMO.

So if reports are accurate...he turned down #2 money.

Is he worth that? Is that a good investment of dollars for the position of TE?

Not to rag you too hard, but just putting a thought out there for you. I don't think he's #2 money, and I am concerned for his ability to reason and remain rational IF he indeed turned it down.

That would make TWO Texans holdouts, represented by the same agent group, doing the same stupid thing. That's IF reports are true, btw.

Jackie Chiles
06-15-2009, 01:24 AM
So if reports are accurate...he turned down #2 money.

Is he worth that? Is that a good investment of dollars for the position of TE?

Not to rag you too hard, but just putting a thought out there for you. I don't think he's #2 money, and I am concerned for his ability to reason and remain rational IF he indeed turned it down.

That would make TWO Texans holdouts, represented by the same agent group, doing the same stupid thing. That's IF reports are true, btw.

The Chron article never specifically states that his representation flat turned that deal down. For all we know that offer could still be on the table and the sides are hammering out specifics that they don't like.

As far as paying him #2 money I have no problem with it. Winslow's deal is obviously going to be higher but if he gets this reported deal he will be the 2nd highest paid TE in football for maybe a season. Numerous TEs are in line for some extensions/raises. As far as OD's place among those TEs I would say obviously Winslow will be higher paid, Gates should be, Witten, and thats about it. Cooley and Clark are right about at his level and Gonzalez is probably better now but I doubt he will be for much longer so his contract isn't quite as relevant. The longer we hold off on OD's deal the more he is going to be paid because one or two of those guys are going to get their raise which is going to push up their salary as a position. I can see your point of view about not paying a TE that kind of money but I guess I just value him more.

barrett
06-15-2009, 01:43 AM
What concerns me about all of this mess is that the Texans "reportedly" offered the kind of money that they did. If it's true, then I have to question that logic. I recognize that D-Rob is of greater value to the Texans than he would be to many teams in the league so I expect him to receive an offer that would be higher than he may be perceived to be worth but not the kind of offer he was "reportedly" offered, and not this year. Not when you have the luxury of the franchise tag to evaluate his play post injury.

Secondly, the supposed offer to make Owen Daniels the 2nd highest paid TE in the NFL would be a terrible mistake when we talk about value.

I continue my "wait and see" until there are more facts and less "reportedly".

barrett
06-15-2009, 01:57 AM
Are the rules the same for the franchise tag as they are with the RFA tender as it pertains to deadlines? Does Dunta have to sign his by a certain date before the teams options change?

dalemurphy
06-15-2009, 02:09 AM
Are the rules the same for the franchise tag as they are with the RFA tender as it pertains to deadlines? Does Dunta have to sign his by a certain date before the teams options change?

No, there is no real deadline to sign the franchise tag. The Texans could rescind the offer at any point- even a month ago... Here's the difference: since Dunta has 4+ years of service, he would become a UFA. Since OD has less than 4 years of service, he is the exclusive right of the Texans unless they cut him. Aside from the RFA tender, which they had a right to remove if unsigned starting tomorrow, the Texans only obligation in order to keep OD another year is to offer him a 10% raise from his '08 salary.

dalemurphy
06-15-2009, 02:13 AM
The Chron article never specifically states that his representation flat turned that deal down. For all we know that offer could still be on the table and the sides are hammering out specifics that they don't like.

As far as paying him #2 money I have no problem with it. Winslow's deal is obviously going to be higher but if he gets this reported deal he will be the 2nd highest paid TE in football for maybe a season. Numerous TEs are in line for some extensions/raises. As far as OD's place among those TEs I would say obviously Winslow will be higher paid, Gates should be, Witten, and thats about it. Cooley and Clark are right about at his level and Gonzalez is probably better now but I doubt he will be for much longer so his contract isn't quite as relevant. The longer we hold off on OD's deal the more he is going to be paid because one or two of those guys are going to get their raise which is going to push up their salary as a position. I can see your point of view about not paying a TE that kind of money but I guess I just value him more.

The Texans have total control of this situation with OD. Predictably, he signed his RFA tender. Soon enough, he will feel compelled to sign the first reasonable long term deal he gets or risk not seeing UFA until after the 2011 season... which may not even happen if a new agreement isn't reached. With Demeco, OD, and Butler the Texans only have to be as generous as they want to. Those guys have to take a decent deal. It will happen!

Runner
06-15-2009, 08:38 AM
I don't know if I agree with not giving him a big payday because of the position he plays. I think its ok to spend, maybe even overspend, for talent and OD is a talent. I would rather overpay for a talented TE than overpay for an average (for example) LT just because that position is valued more highly. We will get into trouble if we pay average players big money like we have in the past, I have no problem giving talented players nice contracts.

Another reason I would pay him is because I highly doubt OD has hit his ceiling yet, he will continue to mature as a blocker and as our offense continues to evolve he will make more plays. If we make him the 2nd highest paid TE today he will probably be the 5th or so highest paid in 2-3 years. He is a core guy on offense IMO.


It appears the Texans agree with you. They seem to value OD higher than many of the fans do. Even though he is "just a tight end", with that offer they don't act like they could just plug in the next player and get the results they want. I'm happy to see the team values its few Pro Bowlers. It seems they will count on them in its quest to improve. Go figure.

CloakNNNdagger
06-15-2009, 08:56 AM
I don't believe that this link by LZ (http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2009/06/in_the_case_of_owen_daniels_vs.html) has been posted.


I've noticed that more and more Texans fans are starting to worry about Owen Daniels and his status with the Texans. After all, Daniels has decided to stay away from practice because he is unhappy with how the contract negotiations are going and now Daniels, DeMeco Ryans and Dunta Robinson are now unhappy with their contract situations.

Daniels agents, Alan Herman and Dave Butz, aren't known as agents who hold clients out or as unreasonable negotiators. They are obviously very unhappy with the manner in which the Texans are coming up with Daniels' contract value:

We haven't even gotten to the point of talking numbers that contemporary tight ends are getting. It's frustrating we aren't there. We are talking about things that happened years ago. I mean, many years ago.

I'll translate that for you. The Texans are coming up with numbers based on contracts that were done two or three years ago and that isn't going to cut it if you want to sign Daniels to a long-term deal.


Agents holding 2 seemingly "desireable" players on the same team, negotiating for new contracts at the same time are more likely to try to "play games" and "link" negotiations and play "hard ball."

CloakNNNdagger
06-15-2009, 09:15 AM
PFT talk says that OD is represented by same group as Dunta. Makes alot more sense now. There's alot of hurt feelings and egos at hand with the agents along with Rick Smith.

LINK (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/06/14/texans-dont-plan-to-negotiate-with-daniels/)


Texans Don’t Plan To Negotiate With Daniels

Although agents Alan Herman and Dave Butz reportedly hope to continue to negotiate with the Texans on a long-term deal for tight end Owen Daniels, a league source tells us that the team’s current plan is to allow Daniels to play out the 2009 season under his one-year, $2.79 million salary, before taking up the issue of a multi-year contract.

Per the source, Daniels wants to be the highest-paid tight end in the sport. To get there, he’d need a deal that averages more than Dallas Clark’s $6.9 million annual package from the Colts.

And while John McClain of the Houston Chronicle reports that the Texans already have offered a contract that would make Daniels the league’s second highest-paid tight end (the current No. 2, Kellen Winslow of Tampa, averages $6.5 million), we’re told that the Texans’ best offer would put Daniels at No. 4, between Tony Gonzalez’s $6.25 million average and Daniel Graham’s $6 million average.

Rounding out the top eight are Jeremy Shockey ($5.1 million), Chris Cooley ($4.8 million), Jason Witten ($4.6 million), and Antonio Gates ($4.4 million).

The team’s hard line with Daniels arises in part, we’re told, from the fact that he is represented by the same firm that has cornerback Dunta Robinson, the team’s unsigned franchise player — and that the Texans are irritated with the manner in which both players have been handled this offseason.

Though it’s possible that the Texans will reverse course on their willingness to sign Daniels to a long-term deal if he decides to take the best offer that has been on the table, the current position (as we understand it) is that the Texans won’t be making Daniels the highest-paid tight end in the game.

Though he has been a solid player during his first three NFL seasons, does he really merit $7 million per year?

Mike Kerns
06-15-2009, 10:08 AM
I'll translate that for you. The Texans are coming up with numbers based on contracts that were done two or three years ago and that isn't going to cut it if you want to sign Daniels to a long-term deal.

It isnt the same world economically that it was two or three years ago.

The Pencil Neck
06-15-2009, 10:21 AM
It isnt the same world economically that it was two or three years ago.

I think what they're really saying is that the Texans are ignoring the Winslow contract because it's ridiculous.

GP
06-15-2009, 11:05 AM
McClain: Is he really worth $7 million per year?

HELL NO, he isn't worth 7 mill a year. Period.

Give me draft picks or give me death.

dalemurphy
06-15-2009, 11:24 AM
I don't believe that this link by LZ (http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2009/06/in_the_case_of_owen_daniels_vs.html) has been posted.





Agents holding 2 seemingly "desireable" players on the same team, negotiating for new contracts at the same time are more likely to try to "play games" and "link" negotiations and play "hard ball."


That game won't work out very well for OD. He has no bargaining power and will eventually have to take what the Texans offer him. The only way he doesn't get signed to an extension is if he gets seriously injured or if the Texans find that Casey or Dressen or Hill is the better player. These agents are going to end up costing OD a great deal if he isn't careful.

GP
06-15-2009, 11:33 AM
That game won't work out very well for OD. He has no bargaining power and will eventually have to take what the Texans offer him. The only way he doesn't get signed to an extension is if he gets seriously injured or if the Texans find that Casey or Dressen or Hill is the better player. These agents are going to end up costing OD a great deal if he isn't careful.

Which is what's so mind-boggling to me.

If I were the Texans FO, I'd be "irritated", as well, if I handed what is reportedly a generous offer to OD and it was not accepted.

Obviously, there might be some areas of the contract that need to be ironed out which is why it isn't signed yet. But if he plans on being a hardcore holdout...then he might have to play somewhere else when the dust settles.

Good post, Dale. Rep your way.

nunusguy
06-15-2009, 11:40 AM
I think OD is getting bad advice and/or is a fool.
At 240 something (and only 6'3"), he can't play for a lot of NFL teams because he's an undersized NFL TE, but fits well in Kubiaks system.
And he was a substitute pro-bowl player who got lucky when players cancelled and made his first apperance in the game and even managemend to catch a TD pass. We aren't talking about a perennial pro-bowler here like Gonzales or Schocky or Gates. OD is atleast one notch down from that level.
And his backup is pretty descent, with even better size. Then there's 2 TEs drafted this year - wakeup Owen. If you have an injury this fall and one of these other TEs steps up and has a real good day, your leverage is gone.

Runner
06-15-2009, 11:53 AM
I think OD is getting bad advice and/or is a fool.
At 240 something (and only 6'3"), he can't play for a lot of NFL teams because he's an undersized NFL TE, but fits well in Kubiaks system.
And he was a substitute pro-bowl player who got lucky when players cancelled and made his first apperance in the game and even managemend to catch a TD pass. We aren't talking about a perennial pro-bowler here like Gonzales or Schocky or Gates. OD is atleast one notch down from that level.
And his backup is pretty descent, with even better size. Then there's 2 TEs drafted this year - wakeup Owen. If you have an injury this fall and one of these other TEs steps up and has a real good day, your leverage is gone.

You list some reasons why OD isn't worth the $6M or so he's been offered. Let's ignore for a minute that the report of his "second highest salary for a TE" isn't clear to what that means (total value, next year's salary, guarantees???)


This is a question for the group. Many people think that OD isn't worth near the money being offered. Many in the same group think "Smithiak" don't make mistakes in this area. Which is right? Daniels is not worth it or Smith is throwing money away with that offer?

disaacks3
06-15-2009, 11:55 AM
Wow - the link Cloak put on here earlier brings this issue into much clearer relief. OD / His Agents are trying to get north of 6mil /yr for total compensation? We love you man, but that kinda pushing it.

HoustonFrog
06-15-2009, 11:58 AM
I think OD is getting bad advice and/or is a fool.
At 240 something (and only 6'3"), he can't play for a lot of NFL teams because he's an undersized NFL TE, but fits well in Kubiaks system.
And he was a substitute pro-bowl player who got lucky when players cancelled and made his first apperance in the game and even managemend to catch a TD pass. We aren't talking about a perennial pro-bowler here like Gonzales or Schocky or Gates. OD is atleast one notch down from that level.
And his backup is pretty descent, with even better size. Then there's 2 TEs drafted this year - wakeup Owen. If you have an injury this fall and one of these other TEs steps up and has a real good day, your leverage is gone.

This doesn't happen often but I agree completely if it is #2(assuming that it means the 2nd best TE)money that OD is asking for. In my book he isn't complete enough..yet..for that type of cash. If he skipped out on what was offered i'm not sure what to say. He is a top 5-10 so I think he or his agents are making a silly stand.

As for Runners question...I'm assuming, also..that Smithiak offered that thinking the TE landscape will again change quickly and once others get their money down the line, his contract will fall in place. Take LZs example that a guy like Cooley would then ask to get his contract reupped after seeing ODs. But the problem with that is that then you are constantly betting high on a perceived future value. I think it was too high but if it was turned down I wouldn't budge.

Texecutioner
06-15-2009, 12:03 PM
I think OD is getting bad advice and/or is a fool.
At 240 something (and only 6'3"), he can't play for a lot of NFL teams because he's an undersized NFL TE, but fits well in Kubiaks system.
And he was a substitute pro-bowl player who got lucky when players cancelled and made his first apperance in the game and even managemend to catch a TD pass. We aren't talking about a perennial pro-bowler here like Gonzales or Schocky or Gates. OD is atleast one notch down from that level.
And his backup is pretty descent, with even better size. Then there's 2 TEs drafted this year - wakeup Owen. If you have an injury this fall and one of these other TEs steps up and has a real good day, your leverage is gone.

I agree with everything you said here other than putting SHockey on a list that Daniels isn't better than. Shockey is an ass hat that's a team cancer. He hasn't ever had a season as good as his rookie season. He was a disappointment in the easiest offense in the league last year. He's been over rated for years now. Daniels is a much better player than Shockey.

dalemurphy
06-15-2009, 12:03 PM
You list some reasons why OD isn't worth the $6M or so he's been offered. Let's ignore for a minute that the report of his "second highest salary for a TE" isn't clear to what that means (total value, next year's salary, guarantees???)


This is a question for the group. Many people think that OD isn't worth near the money being offered. Many in the same group think "Smithiak" don't make mistakes in this area. Which is right? Daniels is not worth it or Smith is throwing money away with that offer?

Obviously, it depends on the structure of the deal. My only concern with any contract is that the organization has a plan on how to maintain salary cap health and a team that can consistently compete. If they structure a deal that pays OD exceedingly well but it fits into the cap structure in a way that allows other deals to get done, then I'm happy for OD.

Time is on the side of the organization this season, and though I do get nervous as deals don't get done, it appears Smith and company realize the strength of their bargaining position as the uncapped year looms. So, this off-season, patience is virtuous for them. Meanwhile, players and agents are very nervous about the uncertainty ahead, and are pushing as hard as they can now because things are going to get exceedingly more difficult for them over the next few months and, perhaps the next couple years.

Texecutioner
06-15-2009, 12:08 PM
LINK (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/06/14/texans-dont-plan-to-negotiate-with-daniels/)

If this is the stance of Daniels and his agent, then I say that we start shopping him now and get some draft picks and tell Casey get ready. Don't want to have to do it Daniels, but you're not worth that kind of money and we loved you as a Texan and wish you all the luck in the world.

The only problem though is that a lot of other teams may be reluctant to trade for the guy if he wants that kind of money from them as well.

Mike Kerns
06-15-2009, 12:16 PM
I think what they're really saying is that the Texans are ignoring the Winslow contract because it's ridiculous.

As they should. If he wants that type of money, I say see ya. Thats bigger than Tony Gonzalez in his prime money right there. I like OD, but give me a break.

Next offseason is going to be something...

Honoring Earl 34
06-15-2009, 12:17 PM
The funny thing is if we were New England , we'd be called frugal and managing our cap . Since we're the Texans , we are cheap or dumb .

edo783
06-15-2009, 12:21 PM
Obviously, it depends on the structure of the deal. My only concern with any contract is that the organization has a plan on how to maintain salary cap health and a team that can consistently compete.

That's my concern also. IMO, the offers to both Dunta and OD seem more than a bit out of whack for the level of the player and would have very negative effects on our cap when it comes to signing the likes of Mario, because he WILL get paid and some very serious coin at that. If we suck out dollars from our cap for a couple of medium level players we may not be able to secure the real stars like AJ and Mario and any others that pop up when the time comes.

Mr. White
06-15-2009, 12:27 PM
Rounding out the top eight are Jeremy Shockey ($5.1 million), Chris Cooley ($4.8 million), Jason Witten ($4.6 million), and Antonio Gates ($4.4 million).


There's a pretty good reason why Owen Daniels isn't making more than these guys...because they're better than him. Those guys are elite and OD just isn't there yet.

Kinda like Dunta. These guys want elite pay but haven't shown elite results.

TimeKiller
06-15-2009, 12:35 PM
There's a pretty good reason why Owen Daniels isn't making more than these guys...because they're better than him. Those guys are elite and OD just isn't there yet.

Kinda like Dunta. These guys want elite pay but haven't shown elite results.

I guess the reason now is that he won't sign. He's been offered more.

If this team continues to get better this is only going to help. Players will see that the team is in charge of the team, not agents and will deal more willingly. If the team slips back under .500 ball they'll crumble under the weight of trying to keep good players on a bad team with ridiculous contracts like Winslow's.

Demeco is still going to get a better contract than either OD or Dunta. Probably because he isn't trying to put himself in between the team and it's goals.

Runner
06-15-2009, 12:37 PM
I'm starting to like these what if games.

I know that McCain mentioned $7M, so that sets the base for reality, but what if...

The Texans have structured a five year, $30M deal that includes a $10M roster bonus and $4M salary for the final year of the contract. OD, his agents, and the Texans would all know that there is no intention of paying off the fifth year; they'd just have him for four of his prime years and let him walk. That five year/$30M contract just went to four years/$16M. The beauty is that it make OD the bad guy when it is leaked to the press.*

I doubt the above scenario is anywhere near reality, but there are many ways that OD could legitimately reject what looks like a generous offer from the details leaked.


*I'm waiting for all the posts deploring the Texans for whining to the press.

HOU-TEX
06-15-2009, 12:38 PM
There's a pretty good reason why Owen Daniels isn't making more than these guys...because they're better than him. Those guys are elite and OD just isn't there yet.

Kinda like Dunta. These guys want elite pay but haven't shown elite results.

I don't think they're that better than OD. They've just been doing it longer and have been consistantly good. OD's getting there and I hope both parties can come to an agreement so he can remain a Texan for a long time.

Shockey doesn't deserve to be mentioned with elite TE's.

GP
06-15-2009, 12:38 PM
Obviously, it depends on the structure of the deal. My only concern with any contract is that the organization has a plan on how to maintain salary cap health and a team that can consistently compete. If they structure a deal that pays OD exceedingly well but it fits into the cap structure in a way that allows other deals to get done, then I'm happy for OD.

Time is on the side of the organization this season, and though I do get nervous as deals don't get done, it appears Smith and company realize the strength of their bargaining position as the uncapped year looms. So, this off-season, patience is virtuous for them. Meanwhile, players and agents are very nervous about the uncertainty ahead, and are pushing as hard as they can now because things are going to get exceedingly more difficult for them over the next few months and, perhaps the next couple years.

The structure is the only thing that I can think is holding it up.

Maybe it's based on OD having to produce some big numbers in a lot of categories, making it hard to reach the full amount of the annual dollars?

If he was handed $6 mill a year, and turned it down...then WOW.

Rep to Honoring Earl 34...you nailed it: The Patriots would be doing a smart thing, but the Texans just don't know a "good" deal when they see one. Which is irritating because it's sort of like they're saying, on Dunta and OD's value to the team, "These two guys are going to slip away and you can't reload and replace them." Which might have been true 4 years ago, but this team is inching closer and closer to being able to re-stock a player or two without much difficulty. I think we're there on offense, and defense is almost there.

Runner
06-15-2009, 12:45 PM
That's my concern also. IMO, the offers to both Dunta and OD seem more than a bit out of whack for the level of the player and would have very negative effects on our cap when it comes to signing the likes of Mario, because he WILL get paid and some very serious coin at that. If we suck out dollars from our cap for a couple of medium level players we may not be able to secure the real stars like AJ and Mario and any others that pop up when the time comes.

So just two people have answered (thanks!) and both think Smith is offering too much money to the hold-outs in his first two challenging negotiations. If true, that doesn't bode well for the future.

I choose to think that Dunta was never offered that huge guaranteed money, that Daniels wouldn't be over compensated with the deal that is on the table, and therefore Smith isn't all that bad.

Mr. White
06-15-2009, 12:51 PM
I don't think they're that better than OD. They've just been doing it longer and have been consistantly good. OD's getting there and I hope both parties can come to an agreement so he can remain a Texan for a long time.

Shockey doesn't deserve to be mentioned with elite TE's.

I guess where I come out on OD is this....he's a damn good TE but he hasn't done anything to warrant the top pay in the league. He doesn't block as well as Cooley, Witten, and Shockey and he isn't the pass-catcher that Gates is.

badboy
06-15-2009, 12:52 PM
I think Demeco has his investment guru on standby for his contract making him the #2 paid LB in NFL.

nunusguy
06-15-2009, 12:55 PM
This is a question for the group. Many people think that OD isn't worth near the money being offered. Many in the same group think "Smithiak" don't make mistakes in this area. Which is right? Daniels is not worth it or Smith is throwing money away with that offer?

Some positions are of a universilly high value thru out the NFL like QB, OLT, and edge-rushers (be they 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DEs). For examples look at what the Texans paid (in draft picks or FA compensation) to the players they have at those positions.
On the other hand, some positions have a relative or variable value that is team-system dependant. The Texans presently have a 3rd and 4th round pick invested in their starters at RB & TE respectively.

Runner
06-15-2009, 12:59 PM
The funny thing is if we were New England , we'd be called frugal and managing our cap . Since we're the Texans , we are cheap or dumb .

It's disingenuous to compare the Texans to the Patriots, IMO. They would be a better comparison to a frugal average team.

Wolf
06-15-2009, 01:04 PM
AJ's quick blog (http://www.examiner.com/x-778-Houston-Texans-Examiner~y2009m6d14-Daniels-signs-tender?cid=exrss-Houston-Texans-Examiner) about it

dalemurphy
06-15-2009, 01:06 PM
I guess where I come out on OD is this....he's a damn good TE but he hasn't done anything to warrant the top pay in the league. He doesn't block as well as Cooley, Witten, and Shockey and he isn't the pass-catcher that Gates is.


I would rather have OD than Cooley. Neither are explosive athletes but I think OD is a better one. I think OD has an opportunity to be every bit the player that Jason Witten has become. Their career paths and talents are very similar. Witten was a 3rd rounder with good but not great athleticism but limited size and blocking ability coming out of Tennessee. He worked on his strength and blocking a great deal in order to become the player he is now. OD is on the same path. His blocking improved a great deal last year and I think he became an asset as a blocker. (watch the GB game)... he handled LBs and Kampman one on one a number of times.

My problem with paying OD top dollar is that he lacks the special abilities of Tony G., A. Gates... those players create tremendous problems for defenses. OD, IMO, does not require the same kind of attention. As long as he is in an offense with AJ, he will be open a lot, catch everything thrown to him, and be an asset blocking as well. However, if AJ is injured, OD can't create the problems for a defense that free up secondary receivers and our running game. Elite money for skill position players should be reserved for those athletes that free up the field for the rest of the players, not for the guys that execute when their opportunities are created by scheme or by the presence of a special player like AJ.

beerlover
06-15-2009, 01:10 PM
I would rather have OD than Cooley. Neither are explosive athletes but I think OD is a better one. I think OD has an opportunity to be every bit the player that Jason Witten has become. Their career paths and talents are very similar. Witten was a 3rd rounder with good but not great athleticism but limited size and blocking ability coming out of Tennessee. He worked on his strength and blocking a great deal in order to become the player he is now. OD is on the same path. His blocking improved a great deal last year and I think he became an asset as a blocker. (watch the GB game)... he handled LBs and Kampman one on one a number of times.

My problem with paying OD top dollar is that he lacks the special abilities of Tony G., A. Gates... those players create tremendous problems for defenses. OD, IMO, does not require the same kind of attention. As long as he is in an offense with AJ, he will be open a lot, catch everything thrown to him, and be an asset blocking as well. However, if AJ is injured, OD can't create the problems for a defense that free up secondary receivers and our running game. Elite money for skill position players should be reserved for those athletes that free up the field for the rest of the players, not for the guys that execute when their opportunities are created by scheme or by the presence of a special player like AJ.

I agree. really solid post :goodpost:

disaacks3
06-15-2009, 01:11 PM
This is a question for the group. Many people think that OD isn't worth near the money being offered. Many in the same group think "Smithiak" don't make mistakes in this area. Which is right? Daniels is not worth it or Smith is throwing money away with that offer?

I think BOTH are true, but...

Smithiak is projecting the higher "future" numbers being offered to TE's, so they can justify what appears to be an overpay this year as it might appear much more agreeable 1-3 yrs. down the road to get him locked up now.

In other words - no he really isn't worth that kind of $ NOW, but that number MIGHT appear reasonable in 2-3 years...by then OD will only be in year 3 of a 5-7 year deal.

Honoring Earl 34
06-15-2009, 01:18 PM
It's disingenuous to compare the Texans to the Patriots, IMO. They would be a better comparison to a frugal average team.

It's not a comparison , it's a statement about status . Bill has enough status where nobody questions his moves because the perception is , he can't do wrong .

Kaiser Toro
06-15-2009, 02:08 PM
This signing is good news for the Texans as we may have the best TE roster in our history should Hill work out as the blocking TE. Casey can catch the ball in open space, which is what OD does very well between the 20's. Give Casey a year of reps in practice and I am certain he can be a terrific pass catching TE in this offense.

Daniels is a Texan next year and the TE position is now set for 2009, that is the news.

Texans_Chick
06-15-2009, 02:56 PM
My take on the PFT report, with some Big Lebowski thrown in.

It's my believe that The Big Lebowski speaks to all world events, both large and small.

Latest Owen Daniels gossip is a bummer, man (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/06/latest_owen_daniels_gossip_is_1.html)

In other words, I'm trying to talk about this stuff without people getting overly serious about it. :cool:

CloakNNNdagger
06-15-2009, 03:07 PM
This signing is good news for the Texans as we may have the best TE roster in our history should Hill work out as the blocking TE. Casey can catch the ball in open space, which is what OD does very well between the 20's. Give Casey a year of reps in practice and I am certain he can be a terrific pass catching TE in this offense.

Daniels is a Texan next year and the TE position is now set for 2009, that is the news.

But, just released:


Daniels skips first day of minicamp


HOUSTON -- Texans tight end Owen Daniels signed his restricted free-agent tender Sunday but was not at the first day of the team's mandatory three-day minicamp Monday.



Daniels is in line for a fine of almost $10,000 for missing the mandatory session while under contract. A player cannot be fined further than that for missing additional days and it's unclear if Daniels intends to skip all three days.



"We're happy that he elected to come in and sign his tender and be a part of the football team again; a little disappointed that he's not here today," general manager Rick Smith said. "We've talked about this process and how complicated it is. At some point I am sure Owen will rejoin his teammates and be back and playing productive football."

Texans_Chick
06-15-2009, 03:19 PM
But, just released:

Yeah, I added that to my blog post. What I think is interesting is that Smith publicly playing really nice--still talking about working a deal.

I don't like the direction of this negotiation at all. I think they are going to work out a deal and it will be at a number that I will not like.

texanskan
06-15-2009, 03:32 PM
I think Daniels is a guy we need to let walk after this season.

I believe Casey can be a guy who will be able to step in to his role for a fraction of the price.

The best teams can only have a few untouchables and OD is not one of them. I say play this season out and then we can see where Casey/Dreason are and then make a decision.

my .02

CloakNNNdagger
06-15-2009, 03:36 PM
Yeah, I added that to my blog post. What I think is interesting is that Smith publicly playing really nice--still talking about working a deal.

I don't like the direction of this negotiation at all. I think they are going to work out a deal and it will be at a number that I will not like.


I don't see he and his agents doing OD any negotiation or PR favors by missing this OTA.

WesmanTexanfan
06-15-2009, 04:19 PM
With the way we draft, I dont think we should pay him.....

GP
06-15-2009, 04:40 PM
I don't see he and his agents doing OD any negotiation or PR favors by missing this OTA.

Agreed.

He obviously showed up to sign the short-term contract, so that he didn't have to run the risk of the Texans re-offering a lower amount. Yet he won't go ahead and just BE there for the sake of showing people that he's focused and ready to go. Instead, it smells of more posturing by OD and his agents.

With no certain numbers and details of the deal, it's hard to get a read on what's going on.

And if Smith is trying to sign OD with the mindset of beating the new contracts that other star TEs will sign, by overspending "today" in order to save on tomorrow's increased cost, then is OD upset because he knows as soon as he signs his long-term deal he's soon to be eclipsed by other TEs?

In short: Is OD trying to re-raise Smith?

HOU-TEX
06-15-2009, 04:53 PM
This was posted by Keith over on Inthebullseye. I'm not sure where he got the quote from.

Update from Owen a little over an hour ago seems to counter the PFT story:

Quote by OD
We're still working really hard to get something done. Hopefully we can make it happen soon.

http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11877#post11877

HoustonFrog
06-15-2009, 05:27 PM
So just two people have answered (thanks!) and both think Smith is offering too much money to the hold-outs in his first two challenging negotiations. If true, that doesn't bode well for the future.

I choose to think that Dunta was never offered that huge guaranteed money, that Daniels wouldn't be over compensated with the deal that is on the table, and therefore Smith isn't all that bad.

I think 3...I answered in a second part of mine a page earlier ;)

CloakNNNdagger
06-15-2009, 05:52 PM
Just wanted to throw one more point in. This can't be excused by "worry of injury during an unimportant" session (OTA) since the vets will not be seeing the field for this 3 day OTA.......only the weight room.

See Video on HOUSTON.COM (with Brooke Bentley) (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=5339)

Austrian
06-15-2009, 05:55 PM
This was posted by Keith over on Inthebullseye. I'm not sure where he got the quote from.



http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11877#post11877

He said that on his facebook fanpage.

HOU-TEX
06-15-2009, 05:58 PM
He said that on his facebook fanpage.

OK thanks. Any other tidbits on the page?

Austrian
06-15-2009, 06:17 PM
OK thanks. Any other tidbits on the page?

No, just that.

GP
06-15-2009, 06:40 PM
Kuharsky has a great update on the situation.

Here it is: Kuharsky's lengthy blog entry on today's espn.com (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/0-10-75/Might-hovering-contract-issues-distract-Texans-.html)

Nicely done.

Fox
06-15-2009, 06:56 PM
Kuharsky has a great update on the situation.

Here it is: Kuharsky's lengthy blog entry on today's espn.com (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/0-10-75/Might-hovering-contract-issues-distract-Texans-.html)

Nicely done.

Really interesting piece. Particularly intrigued with Demeco's candor. These guys are going to pro-bowls and they want to be paid like it. Either we pay or someone else will. Hopefully Rick can work out something fair without paying out ridiculous cash. This is one of those deals where if we don't sign them we look cheap, and if we do people are going to inevitably rake the FO over the coals for paying too much.

Texecutioner
06-15-2009, 07:13 PM
Really interesting piece. Particularly intrigued with Demeco's candor. These guys are going to pro-bowls and they want to be paid like it. Either we pay or someone else will. Hopefully Rick can work out something fair without paying out ridiculous cash. This is one of those deals where if we don't sign them we look cheap, and if we do people are going to inevitably rake the FO over the coals for paying too much.

I think Demeco is by far the most important out of all 3. He's the most irreplacable if you ask me and we need more guys on defense right now.

Dunta was already rewarded with a very sweet offer and he declined, so we haven't been cheap with him at all and the money we're paying him this season is more than he deserves.

I don't remember who I was arguing with about the Winslow deal causing Daniels to want close to the kind of money, but I was clearly wrong on that one. I knew it was possible, but I didn't expect him to demand it.

I just wish Demeco and Dunta would STFU!

CloakNNNdagger
06-15-2009, 07:13 PM
Kuharsky has a great update on the situation.

Here it is: Kuharsky's lengthy blog entry on today's espn.com (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/0-10-75/Might-hovering-contract-issues-distract-Texans-.html)

Nicely done.


I have a very hard time with a quote by Winston about the situation:

"It's not just the money. Your life's on hold. I know Owen has found a piece of land that he wants to build a house on and be here in Houston and he can't, he doesn't know where he's going to be. One year is great, I'm sure he's not complaining about the money. It's more that your life is just on e hold, you don't know what you're going to do. I think that's an aspect people don't' take into consideration. He's stuck kind of, he's on hold another year, that's another year of insecurity and not being able to really settle in."

In light of all the money he did receive upon signing the tender, and the probability of an unaccepted sizeable (but not enough) proposed long term contract........let me see, how many Americans have lost their savings, jobs, their homes, their security. How many have no idea if they will have any savings left, a job, a home, or security tomorrow. I'm sorry, but I personally have difficult accepting that line of reasoning. I know some of you will throw tomatoes at me, but at least that will supply me the security of a steady stream of food to put on my family's table.:texflag:

Number19
06-15-2009, 07:20 PM
...As I said, I put the blame on society as a whole for this situation. When we value a wide receiver or a quarterback more than a school teacher or a fireman, something is wrong.
...It's just one of those things that irratate me, but it's not like anything can be done, and it's certainly not going to keep me from watching the NFL, or hoping OD comes back into the fold.

It just pisses me off, that's all...School teachers and firemen are government employees whose salaries are paid for by tax dollars. If you think this bad, wait until you're forced to pay for national health care.

ArlingtonTexan
06-15-2009, 07:53 PM
I have a very hard time with a quote by Winston about the situation:



In light of all the money he did receive upon signing the tender, and the probability of an unaccepted sizeable (but not enough) proposed long term contract........let me see, how many Americans have lost their savings, jobs, their homes, their security. How many have no idea if they will have any savings left, a job, a home, or security tomorrow. I'm sorry, but I personally have difficult accepting that line of reasoning. I know some of you will throw tomatoes at me, but at least that will supply me the security of a steady stream of food to put on my family's table.:texflag:

The problem with the quote is that it is a lie. I am cool with the guys holding out for all they can, but if it is security and knowing you will be in Houston are at the top of the priority list then the Texans have offered that. If you want to be compensated with a contract that say you are one of the players in the game, it is best not to say anything because we know that real issue is money.

infantrycak
06-15-2009, 07:58 PM
Wow, what an a-hole. On NFL Network they just mentioned OD signing his tender offer and one of the ex-players said "who?"

Runner
06-15-2009, 08:05 PM
What is Schaub's roster bonus for next season - $10M? If he has an injury free year and puts up real numbers like his projections, it could get ugly. A top QB like that could want $20M in guarantees plus a hefty yearly salary. These squabbles are just warm-ups.

Back to our regularly scheduled program...

Runner
06-15-2009, 08:07 PM
Wow, what an a-hole. On NFL Network they just mentioned OD signing his tender offer and one of the ex-players said "who?"

Sounds like the ex-player isn't very good as an analyst. Doesn't know the business.

GP
06-15-2009, 08:07 PM
The problem with the quote is that it is a lie. I am cool with the guys holding out for all they can, but if it is security and knowing you will be in Houston are at the top of the priority list then the Texans have offered that. If you want to be compensated with a contract that say you are one of the players in the game, it is best not to say anything because we know that real issue is money.

Uh oh. Someone might be telling us the ugly truth on this situation.

I was thinking the same thing. It's a tad bit "smug" for an NFL player who is going to get a nice contract, regardless of its final amount(s), to claim that he's undergoing some emotional distress because he doesn't know if he's going to be playing in Houston or not.

If you want to play in Houston, you'll sign a contract that bumps your annual pay a significant amount from what it once was...yet you'll also refrain from making incredible coin when there will be MORE Texans players who will need some cap space to get their roll on, as well.

We've got a few players on our team who will make excellent politicians once their playing days are over.

Runner
06-15-2009, 08:12 PM
Really interesting piece. Particularly intrigued with Demeco's candor. These guys are going to pro-bowls and they want to be paid like it. Either we pay or someone else will. Hopefully Rick can work out something fair without paying out ridiculous cash. This is one of those deals where if we don't sign them we look cheap, and if we do people are going to inevitably rake the FO over the coals for paying too much.

I'm not sure how good of an example Andre's contract extension is. I think that there was some arm twisting done in those negotiations.

I never have figured out why the Texans extended Winston so quickly. They must really like what they see with him. I'm not sure he is that much better at his position than Demeco is at his.

nunusguy
06-15-2009, 08:42 PM
For doing something he loves to do, OD is going to get more money in one
football season than most of us get in a lifetime of working our butts off
but doing something that's much less enjoybable to us. And he can get a hellva lot more if he settles for 13, 14, or 15 million guaranteed instead of holding out for several million more. I would only hope to have his problems.

Texans_Chick
06-15-2009, 08:54 PM
Chronicle article (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6479538.html)

Everybody must be reading PFT. They want to keep negotiations quiet:

“I’ve read reports in the media about the contract and they are not accurate,” Herman said. “We didn’t have anything to do with those reports. I’m hoping we can have professional dialogue with Rick to get this done. I think the key to getting something done is not to go over the details in the media.

“As long as we keep it on a high level, there’s a chance to get something done. I’m kind of optimistic.”

Smith also reiterated Monday that he wants to keep the negotiations private. He said he is still interested in coming to an agreement on a long-term deal with Daniels, but he did not want to disclose any details about the current talks.

“We think Owen Daniels is one of the top tight ends in football,” Smith said. “And we think that he is a very important piece of our football team and our organization, and we’re going to try to put a deal together that’s reflective of that.

“Our situation is that Owen is a big part of what we’re trying to do. I want to get a long-term deal. I’m very motivated to get that done. That has not changed.”

Runner
06-15-2009, 08:55 PM
For doing something he loves to do, OD is going to get more money in one
football season than most of us get in a lifetime of working our butts off
but doing something that's much less enjoybable to us. And he can get a hellva lot more if he settles for 13, 14, or 15 million guaranteed instead of holding out for several million more. I would only hope to have his problems.


Well, it is hard to feel sorry for the players in his situation. Then again, maybe I'll feel sorry for the team once billionaire Bob pays us back for the stadium. His yearly beer sales are probably more than many schools' yearly budgets too. I think Kubiak and Smith make more than firemen.

If one chooses to look at things from that viewpoint, it isn't just the players that are spoiled and overpaid. Think of it as capitalism in action.

Heck, I know a lot of regular people making more than school teachers and firemen. None of them have tried to make less than they can or have given any back.

Fox
06-15-2009, 09:24 PM
What is Schaub's roster bonus for next season - $10M? If he has an injury free year and puts up real numbers like his projections, it could get ugly. A top QB like that could want $20M in guarantees plus a hefty yearly salary. These squabbles are just warm-ups.

Back to our regularly scheduled program...

From where I'm sitting I'm good with this scenario. Give me a healthy, productive season out of Schaub (and some playoffs) and I'll think about the financial consequences later. :shades:

Fox
06-15-2009, 09:27 PM
Think of it as capitalism in action.

Heck, I know a lot of regular people making more than school teachers and firemen. None of them have tried to make less than they can or have given any back.

This. Gotta look out for #1, IMO. I'm not looking to make less in a tough economy, I'm looking to preserve as much income as I can.

Xetuoh1836
06-15-2009, 09:45 PM
Chronicle article (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6479538.html)

Everybody must be reading PFT. They want to keep negotiations quiet:

Sorry Steph. The orginal report came from Jabba "Pancakes" McClain. He confirmed it again on 610AM this morning.

"The best way to keep a secret between three people, is if two of them are dead..."
~Ben Franklin~

nunusguy
06-15-2009, 10:50 PM
Well, it is hard to feel sorry for the players in his situation. Then again, maybe I'll feel sorry for the team once billionaire Bob pays us back for the stadium. His yearly beer sales are probably more than many schools' yearly budgets too. I think Kubiak and Smith make more than firemen.

If one chooses to look at things from that viewpoint, it isn't just the players that are spoiled and overpaid. Think of it as capitalism in action.

Heck, I know a lot of regular people making more than school teachers and firemen. None of them have tried to make less than they can or have given any back.
Without people like "billionaire Bob" there is no Houston Texans, there is no NFL. We are all beneficiaries of McNairs efforts. Without him we aren't even having this conversation.
And Daniels is the biggest beneficiary of all. Without McNair he's just playin football in college for the fun of it, then a working stiff with a 5 figure income at some fortune 500 company with his baccalaureate degree. But with McNair he's gonna be worth tens of millions as a pro in the NFL. And all he ever did was play football. Like I said the first time, I wish I could have had Daniels problems.

Runner
06-15-2009, 11:20 PM
Without people like "billionaire Bob" there is no Houston Texans, there is no NFL. We are all beneficiaries of McNairs efforts. Without him we aren't even having this conversation.
And Daniels is the biggest beneficiary of all. Without McNair he's just playin football in college for the fun of it, then a working stiff with a 5 figure income at some fortune 500 company with his baccalaureate degree. But with McNair he's gonna be worth tens of millions as a pro in the NFL. And all he ever did was play football. Like I said the first time, I wish I could have had Daniels problems.

This sums up as well as anything I've seen why the big business gets a pass on things and the benefit of every doubt. Not that I agree with it. I've seen too many sports teams do crappy things to players and fans alike.

NitroGSXR
06-15-2009, 11:43 PM
Without people like "billionaire Bob" there is no Houston Texans, there is no NFL. We are all beneficiaries of McNairs efforts. Without him we aren't even having this conversation.
And Daniels is the biggest beneficiary of all. Without McNair he's just playin football in college for the fun of it, then a working stiff with a 5 figure income at some fortune 500 company with his baccalaureate degree. But with McNair he's gonna be worth tens of millions as a pro in the NFL. And all he ever did was play football. Like I said the first time, I wish I could have had Daniels problems.

I've been upset with how the fans have been dealing with the holdouts od Ryans, daniels, and Robinson's disputes with their contracts more than the disputes themselves. This post is exactly WHY. I tried posting in Steph's blog today but my post was misunderstood. I just couldn't put it in the right words. Outstanding post. It's got nothing to do with us. It's between the Texans and McNair. This is the way they do business. I'm pretty happy we've got a football team at an affordable price. How they have gone from a simple high school generating revenue to mass marketing making billions of dollars is more of a TV/adverising thing.

I guess I'm trying to say that your post (relevant/not relevant to where you stand on the matter because I don't know how you feel about it) your post described me to a t. The bleep I care about their millions. It's got nothing to do with the salary cap. I trust in management to make the decisions. I may or may not like them but I won't berate or alienate a player for trying to get as much as they can. Someone's getting that money. Why are we alienating a player for fighting with his boss for money he's going to get anyway? What do we care that if McNair or the players gets the millions. It's the kind of business they're in. Lucky bastards and more power to them for that. It's easy to forget about how much McNair is making from this thereby creating the salary cap and so on and on. It's easy to get lost and resentful for the squabbling of millions of dollars. TexansChick said it best. It's disgusting hearing about their spat over millions. It's hard for us to be objective when we're struggling to make our next meal. All I know is that I'm happy with what I get out of my $35 ticket. This money thing doesn't have much to do with what I get from my $35. Blame the networks or whatever for generating so much money out of this.

GP
06-16-2009, 09:22 AM
Without people like "billionaire Bob" there is no Houston Texans, there is no NFL. We are all beneficiaries of McNairs efforts. Without him we aren't even having this conversation.
And Daniels is the biggest beneficiary of all. Without McNair he's just playin football in college for the fun of it, then a working stiff with a 5 figure income at some fortune 500 company with his baccalaureate degree. But with McNair he's gonna be worth tens of millions as a pro in the NFL. And all he ever did was play football. Like I said the first time, I wish I could have had Daniels problems.

We can all share in this, too.

Without us to watch the games, buy the products, etc., McNair doesn't pursue a franchise for Houston. And even if we didn't have a franchise...we'd be watching some NFL team, buying their stuff and buying Sunday Ticket.

There's no single person to blame. We're all connected to it.

In fact, the demand is outweighing the supply. So if anything, the consumer (the fan) has more of the responsibility than anybody. Because millions of fans will watch, it entrenches the owners & players in terms of what they can do and why they are able to escape culpability.

If 75% fewer fans watched football, there wouldn't be high salaries. Of course, there wouldn't be football either.

The issue with OD comes down to hoping the Texans FO doesn't throw the bank at him because there are 31 other teams he can get excessive money from. It satisfies OD's need to be paid what he wants, and it keeps us from having too much invested in him. Because we're going to have a QB and a RB to "help out" fairly soon. They can't all get what they want.

HOU-TEX
06-16-2009, 09:51 AM
Wow, what an a-hole. On NFL Network they just mentioned OD signing his tender offer and one of the ex-players said "who?"

Solomon Wilcots said it. Even though I think he was being facetious, it was definitely a random gut shot.

NitroGSXR
06-16-2009, 12:25 PM
We can all share in this, too.

Without us to watch the games, buy the products, etc., McNair doesn't pursue a franchise for Houston. And even if we didn't have a franchise...we'd be watching some NFL team, buying their stuff and buying Sunday Ticket.

There's no single person to blame. We're all connected to it.

In fact, the demand is outweighing the supply. So if anything, the consumer (the fan) has more of the responsibility than anybody. Because millions of fans will watch, it entrenches the owners & players in terms of what they can do and why they are able to escape culpability.

If 75% fewer fans watched football, there wouldn't be high salaries. Of course, there wouldn't be football either.

The issue with OD comes down to hoping the Texans FO doesn't throw the bank at him because there are 31 other teams he can get excessive money from. It satisfies OD's need to be paid what he wants, and it keeps us from having too much invested in him. Because we're going to have a QB and a RB to "help out" fairly soon. They can't all get what they want.
But that's kind of trying to put the some of the blame on us for it. The money is there. If they took away the NFL, we'd be watching what they put on the television then the actors get the millions and what not. The money is there. It's just the way it is.

badboy
06-16-2009, 01:12 PM
I'm not sure how good of an example Andre's contract extension is. I think that there was some arm twisting done in those negotiations.

I never have figured out why the Texans extended Winston so quickly. They must really like what they see with him. I'm not sure he is that much better at his position than Demeco is at his.I think it may have been because we did not have much behind Winston compared with who we have behind Demeco.

badboy
06-16-2009, 01:18 PM
Hey Eric! Good to see you step up for the players who went above their contract and went to Pro Bowl or what ever. What is your opinion on those like Okam and Travis Johnson who have not lived up to their deals? I am sure you believe those players should "reward" the owner by refunding some cash?

Dunta can buy his Houston property out of the $10 million & if he is real good and gets franchised again he should get another hefty $10 -12 million next season. By then his skill set may be diminishing and I know you don't want Mr McNair to be paying DR on a longtime contract when the CB may not be earning the $.

Runner
06-16-2009, 01:27 PM
I think it may have been because we did not have much behind Winston compared with who we have behind Demeco.


That could very well be part of the puzzle.