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Runner
06-04-2009, 03:37 PM
High school literature? I read it two days ago. I like words. I'm a logophile.

I think it would be condescending to speak in words of five letters or fewer.

Note: "five letters or less" would have been incorrect grammer.

Texecutioner
06-04-2009, 03:42 PM
I'd rather have Gary Kubiak stumble through a few seasons that should have been playoff years if it means that we suddenly take off and become a 10-year (long term) team that is either in the playoffs, AFC championship games, divisional winner, etc.

Well that would be great if that's going to happen, but you seem more into the fact that it's already happened almost or that it's set in stone and it isn't. He could just as easily end up being a great coordinator that wasn't cut out for being a head coach. He's had two 8-8 seasons back to back so he's right there in the middle. This year is a put uo or shut up year for Kubes and he'll either make himself or break himself. 4 years is enough to see what kind of coach he is and can consistently be.


For example: Bowlen probably had to get rid of Shanahan because that era was just so over and done with for him. He goes out and grabs a name (McDaniels) because its obvious that a coach with the Patriots will better the Broncos. Except McDaniels is a freak just like Weis is, just like Mangini is. Bowlen went and grabbed a name. Yet sometimes a head coach just stumbles upon a great formula and has some weird breaks go his way (the Tom Brady effect, which only happened because Bledsoe got hurt). I would have expected Mangini to be honest with himself after his Jets tenure, and realize that he needs to lay off the freak juice a bit...but hell nah. He's back with a vengeance. Is THAT what we want if Kubiak can't get it done? A freak show?

And how was that any different that what Mcnair did when he grabbed Kubiak? It's totally the same thing. Kubiak was the "hot name" at the time in that off season and Mcnair bought in. He's looked like a coach that is building a team pretty well, but also has looked awful in certain games at managing those games.

And over all while you may call Mangini a freak up to this point as a HC, he's had more success than Kubes has had. He's made it to the post season once already and was one game away from the post season last year, but Farve played awful down the stretch of the last few games. I'm not a Mangini fan or anything, but I wanted to point that out.

The Jets management is a lot more demanding right now than what the Texans management is. If Kubes would have had the same 8-8 season with the Jets last season that he had with us, Kubes would have been fired the same way Mangini was and if Mangini was here I bet that Mangini would still be coaching here right now the same as Kubes currently is with the record that Mangini ended up with last season.


After the way I have seen the HC and GM gamble on a guy (Schaub) who started off weak and has come on strong--and not in the last game, mind you, but in the last 5 or 6 games in their totality, except the Oakland game which was actually a bad game for everyone--and having seen the trade down for Duane Brown and subsequent jackpot on Steve Slaton in the 3rd round, and seeing that Kubiak cut Richard Smith loose and is installing a d-coord who has the opposite philosophy of the guy before him. Having seen us grab some first round help for DeMeco, instead of trading down in a draft that was already a little weak to begin with. Well, that's how I define success.

Well funny that you mention Slaton, but what about all of the other misses that Kubes had as far as RB? You yourself called it "his last quarter in the slot machine" which I thought was a perfect way to put it. Slaton wasn't supposed to be any more than a 3rd down back for us.

And for every other coach in the NFL we could probably point out a few great players that were drafted to play there as well.



Success is not being the Detroit Lions. Success is not being Kyle Orton. The ultimate success would be Super Bowl. There's a lot of gray area between the Lions and a Super Bowl team.[/QUOTE]

GP
06-04-2009, 04:01 PM
Good questions/points, Texecutioner:

Maybe I'm being a homer here, but it does look like Kubiak is getting the hang of things recently. He's loosening up the playcalling for Kyle to be in charge of (like it should have been all along), he probably stuck with Ahman Green too long. But superior talent is always going to get out there at some point. I won't argue that he's messed up. I just don't think he's wrecked this team like some big name coordinator-to-head coaches have done.

I think Mangini is being exposed as being a better coordinator than an HC.

I think Weiss is being exposed as being a better coordinator than an HC.

Particularly Weiss. He took over Willingham's team and had (IIRC) one very good season, followed by a consistent slide downward. That speaks highly of Willingham's ability to recruit and work with what he had, and Weiss' failure to do anything remotely near the same level. There's no way, if Weiss is a great head coach, that NOTRE DAME (with its notiriety and recruiting) can be that awful that fast. It reminds me of Jerry Jones firing Jimmy Johnson and then Barry Switzer came in and won a SB off Jimmy's leftovers.

I think its going to be a hard road for McDaniels, too. Tom Coughlin is a good example of a guy who was written off over and over, and lookie what happened. Sometimes the best move you make is the one you don't make.

I don't seem to remember Kubiak being the best HC prospect out there. I remember him being noted as being a good fit for Houston, but where was the bidding war on him? I remember Scott Linehan and Sean Payton being heralded as the guys who were going to have the fastest success.

And Kubiak grabbing Slaton after the trade down was a gamble. A gamble that worked. A gamble that proved how little I knew and how much those guys DO. I think we're all angry and asking for Kubiak to be on a hot seat had Steve Slaton NOT been on this team last season--Because that means our run game probably doesn't produce like it should under the ZBS scheme, which means v-e-r-y bad things for the Texans.

As far as the Jets being demanding, now more than ever, that's a given--When was their last SB appearance? They are in a drought. We've just started. That we're talking playoffs, so soon after beginning this franchise with Capers, Casserly, and David Carr, is a pretty good thing. IMO.

HOU-TEX
06-04-2009, 04:14 PM
:um:

thunderkyss
06-04-2009, 07:39 PM
And how was that any different that what Mcnair did when he grabbed Kubiak? It's totally the same thing. Kubiak was the "hot name" at the time in that off season and Mcnair bought in.

Was he?

Did any other team go after Kubiak?

I thought he was the hot name in Houston, as Vince Young was, as was Kolb, as was Derrick Johnson.

I could be wrong, but that was my recollection.

The Patriots were winners, winning what 4 of the last 6 super bowls, or something like that. Teams will pick apart that winning staff. I don't think Denver was in that same category when we got Kubes.

Texecutioner
06-04-2009, 07:44 PM
Was he?

Did any other team go after Kubiak?

I thought he was the hot name in Houston, as Vince Young was, as was Kolb, as was Derrick Johnson.

I could be wrong, but that was my recollection.

The Patriots were winners, winning what 4 of the last 6 super bowls, or something like that. Teams will pick apart that winning staff. I don't think Denver was in that same category when we got Kubes.

Kubiak was one of the hottest names if not the hottest names on the market in that off season that year. He had been mentioned the off season before that with a few teams, and that off season he was one of the hottest names out there. There were several teams talking to Kubes about hiring him. We were the ones that hired him because we gave him a lot of control, and with us being a new team and all I think the Texans were an attractive situation for a first time HC like him. I mean hell, if I were a coach I'd love to work for Mcnair.

Lucky
06-04-2009, 09:54 PM
To a fan, you should be happy if your team wins at least half its games...
No, you should be happy. You should define your own criteria for football bliss. I will define mine.


If you're a fan, you have to either accept the record they give you ...
Or as Bobby Knight might say, "Lay back and enjoy it."

...or you have to turn your back on the team.
Um, no. You're confusing the coaches and the players with the team. The team is the Houston Texans. My loyalty is to the team. Not a particular coach or even a particular player. And if I feel the coaches and players are screwing the pooch, I will let anyone within earshot know about it. That doesn't mean I'm turning my back on the team. Far from it. But it also doesn't mean I have to lay back and enjoy mediocrity. I won't.


I'd rather have Gary Kubiak stumble through a few seasons that should have been playoff years if it means that we suddenly take off...
Yeah, but it doesn't mean that. All it means is that the team stumbles through a few seasons.

To be fair, the harshest critics of the Texans head coach are only upset with the results of the 2008 season. That, and keeping Richard Smith too long.

This is a big year for this franchise. The star player gets it. The head coach gets it. The owner gets it. That a portion of the fan base is in denial of the significance of the Texans 2009 season doesn't make it any less true.

The Pencil Neck
06-05-2009, 12:52 AM
Um, no. You're confusing the coaches and the players with the team. The team is the Houston Texans. My loyalty is to the team. Not a particular coach or even a particular player. And if I feel the coaches and players are screwing the pooch, I will let anyone within earshot know about it. That doesn't mean I'm turning my back on the team. Far from it. But it also doesn't mean I have to lay back and enjoy mediocrity. I won't.


I'm not confusing anything. We just have a different definition of terms.

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with the team's moves or not liking the players. But that's not what I consider "not accepting mediocrity." Not accepting something means that you're doing something to change it and bitching and moaning about what you don't like isn't doing anything to change it. And again, I'm not saying that people shouldn't ***** and moan. I'd be a hypocrite if I said that; I've done plenty of bitching and moaning about this team. But I don't see that as "not accepting mediocrity"; I see that as "pissed off that things aren't better."

To me, fans are in a powerless situation over the team that they're fanatic about. Their only way of not accepting something is to stop being a fan and withdraw their support. It's like when you're watching a game and during a pass or kick, you gyrate your body around trying to get some english on the ball to make it go the way you want it. You don't really have any power over that ball but that doesn't stop us from trying. The bitching and moaning about the team is a lot like that body english... it doesn't do anything but at least it makes you feel like you're doing SOMETHING. The only real power you have is to stop watching.

At the same time, I don't think that trying to look on the bright side or looking for some sort of silver lining is "accepting mediocrity" but I think several people here do. I consider that another way of trying to deal with bad times.

thunderkyss
06-05-2009, 06:08 AM
To be fair, the harshest critics of the Texans head coach are only upset with the results of the 2008 season. That, and keeping Richard Smith too long.


IMHO, I believe Richard Smith is just a scape goat. His conservative attitude was the same conservative attitude Kubiak displayed his first two seasons with the Texans.

In the preseason, we looked aggresive, but then we'd give up a big play or two in the regular season, and next thing you know we're playing prevent defense for the remainder of the year. Never mind that we'd give up big plays that way as well.

Our offense flourished when Kubiak took a step back, and allowed the offense to open up.

Our new defense doesn't really sound much different from our old defense. They're throwing the aggressive word around about as much as Richard Smith did a few years back.

We were already looking more "aggresive" when Dunta came back, & with Diles & Adibi on the field. Getting those two healthy again, adding Cushing, and better play from Atonio Smith, Amobi(??) Bullman, Okam, etc...... we're going to look better anyway, and I don't know that getting rid of Smith will have anything to do with that.

infantrycak
06-05-2009, 08:43 AM
IMHO, I believe Richard Smith is just a scape goat. His conservative attitude was the same conservative attitude Kubiak displayed his first two seasons with the Texans.

Our offense flourished when Kubiak took a step back, and allowed the offense to open up.

Well let's not overstate things. Shanny called one game. It isn't like the O was crap before that game or Shanny changed the playbook any. The O was dropping 400+ yards on Green Bay prior to Shanny being given the reins. On the D, what happened when Kubiak took back some control? - they got more aggressive. Kubiak ceded too much control to Smith and waited too long to dump him/control him more but that doesn't mean Smith's philosophy was Kubiak's.

GP
06-05-2009, 08:52 AM
This is a big year for this franchise. The star player gets it. The head coach gets it. The owner gets it. That a portion of the fan base is in denial of the significance of the Texans 2009 season doesn't make it any less true.

No, Lucky. We DO get it. LOL.

Gary Kubiak gets it most of all. The guy isn't sitting in his office right now, wringing his hands over 8-8 and sweating bullets about how he can survive and get an extra year in 2010.

He's going about his business, as all coaches should be doing.

What we don't get, as Pencil Neck has said very well is this: "There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with the team's moves or not liking the players. But that's not what I consider "not accepting mediocrity." Not accepting something means that you're doing something to change it and bitching and moaning about what you don't like isn't doing anything to change it. And again, I'm not saying that people shouldn't ***** and moan. I'd be a hypocrite if I said that; I've done plenty of bitching and moaning about this team. But I don't see that as "not accepting mediocrity"; I see that as "pissed off that things aren't better."

That sums it up, at least for me, as to what happened a few posts into this thread where things devolved into tagging and labeling of one another. It's as much "speculation" to say he's on a hot seat as it is to say that he's safe for 10 years. That's it whittled down to a nub, IMO.

Marcus
07-04-2009, 11:43 AM
So, after everything's been said and done . . . has it been established that he's on the hotseat, or not?

And how is this thread any different than the "Kubiak's future" thread? Isn't the same thing being discussed?

Runner
09-14-2009, 06:21 AM
Well, we have the start of a new season and one more game of evidence to look at. I still think Kubiak has some responsibility for the team on the field and that the win/loss record is important.

Has anything changed in the "slow, steady improvement/right way" or "good/great team with a bad record" theories?

GP
09-14-2009, 07:45 AM
Well, we have the start of a new season and one more game of evidence to look at. I still think Kubiak has some responsibility for the team on the field and that the win/loss record is important.

Has anything changed in the "slow, steady improvement/right way" or "good/great team with a bad record" theories?

Had we come out competitive, I'd say there's no hot seat.

But having witnessed this awful pattern, and thinking to myself "You don't open up the season, at home, vs. a rookie head coach and a rookie QB, like this, and get a pass."

Had we won or lost, but looked competitive, I wouldn't be leaning toward the rain cloud club. There's no way to spin things to just wave off what we're seeing.

Like I said in another thread: This is like watching the Kubiak version of David Carr's last season in Houston. The guy is just sinking in quicksand.

Second Honeymoon
09-14-2009, 08:02 AM
Had we come out competitive, I'd say there's no hot seat.

But having witnessed this awful pattern, and thinking to myself "You don't open up the season, at home, vs. a rookie head coach and a rookie QB, like this, and get a pass."

Had we won or lost, but looked competitive, I wouldn't be leaning toward the rain cloud club. There's no way to spin things to just wave off what we're seeing.

Like I said in another thread: This is like watching the Kubiak version of David Carr's last season in Houston. The guy is just sinking in quicksand.

yup and its nice to hear one of the Sunshine crowd grab some reality and go with it.

finally it seems the board's members have had enough of this abortion of a team and are ready for a real change. We need someone who will whoop some butt. Kubiak said he told the guys after the game that he was too blame for the loss. are you F-ING kidding me? You rip those losers a new ahole even if you are partially responsible.

This awwshucks good ole boy local 'legend' crap has got to go

screw kubiak and the stupid horse he rode in on...i knew the guy wasn't gonna do anything worth a crap when he was brought in and time has proven that to be true.

we need a guy with EXPERIENCE and a winning track record...oh and someone who can find a better DC than FB

Texan_Bill
09-14-2009, 08:05 AM
I think everyone from Rick Smith all the way down to guys on the practice squad should be on the hot seat, after that abomination yesterday!! :gun:

Specnatz
09-14-2009, 08:27 AM
screw kubiak and the stupid horse he rode in on...i knew the guy wasn't gonna do anything worth a crap when he was brought in and time has proven that to be true.

You say that about every damn player and coach so you are going to be right some of the time.

Second Honeymoon
09-14-2009, 09:30 AM
You say that about every damn player and coach so you are going to be right some of the time.

whatever, sunshine boy. did you get enough sunshine, yesterday? obviously not.

just because you have been all over Kubiak's jock since Day One doesn't mean you have to denegrate those that thought it was a bad hire from Day One.

contrary to your warped sense of reality, I have praised many players and even a few coaches over the years. just because I never liked the players and coaches that suck (carr, myers, bush, dick smith, weaver, and yes kubiak) isn't a reason to get your panties in a wad.

if lashing out at others makes you feel better, so be it. it doesn't change the fact that Kubiak is outcoached almost on a weekly basis and that the coaches, specifically his defensive co-ordinators, have all been massive failures and bad hires.

you would think you would show some humility after such a piss poor performance by Kubiak and his team/staff but noooooo....you have to try and denegrate another poster who has forgotten more about football than you will ever know.

but keep on beating the 'Kubiak Is A Good Head Coach' drum, spec. It just shows how out of touch with reality and how you seem to have no clue what it takes to be a head coach and what it takes to get a team prepared to play.

i will take the high road and not call you out for being wrong....again and again. oh wait i just did...sorry.

IlliniJen
09-14-2009, 09:39 AM
I have to disagree with your example of the Raiders. They are an aberration of a football team. Everything that's wrong with that team comes from one person: Al Davis. The coaches on that team are figureheads that do his bidding, and his constant string of bad decisions has set them back a decade or two. Hear me now and believe me later.

Long-term planning is great and all, but I don't accept a long-term plan of 8-8, 7-9 or 9-7 records. A long term plan has to include tangible improvement, which I do believe we have seen on the offensive side of the ball, save for one huge, glaring issue: red zone conversion. The play calling just wasn't effective. The team seemed to move the ball well except inside the 20, then they clenched up. And a couple TDs were left on the field (and wins) with perplexing 2nd/3rd and inches calls.

The other thing that I've felt has been lacking is a toughness or nastiness on this team that translates to me as a fan as a desire to win and an attitude to get there. Maybe the players will pick up this fumble and make the team their own, but it's not coming from the top down, IMHO.

Here's what I expect to see this year that may prove me wrong in my "fire Kubes!" stance:

1. Lil' Shanny fully taking over the reigns on offensive play calling. As I recall the last game or two last year, he was going solo and there was a tangible difference in the red zone. The team seemed to flow better and the calls weren't so conservative.

2. A more aggressive defense. We have the athletes to hopefully generate a pass rush and I would love to see more blitzing. If you're scared of the secondary getting burned by blitzing, as Smith seemed to be, then you're going to get burned regardless.

3. A favorable schedule. I've looked at the schedule and I think 10 wins is not only doable, but I expect more. It is NOT a tough schedule and we're going to see two different Colts and Titans teams this year. I think the loss of Dungy and Hanesworth (respectively) is huge.

Some dings that keep me on the "Fire Kubes" bandwagon (and there's plenty of room, only a couple of us are here, sitting grumpily with our arms crossed):

1. Team personality/attitude. If someone asked me to define the Texans, I couldn't easily do it. If I see Schaub get another cheap shot and those O linemen don't retaliate, I will got batshit crazy. As should Kubes/Oline coach.

2. Preparation. There are times when the team comes out flat after wins against teams they are better than. Remember the Raiders game last year? That was like watching an old person with no teeth eat a piece of dry toast.

3. In game decision making. I keep harping on this, but Kubes hasn't shown he's advancing through that learning curve. Giving Lil' Shanny the reigns may cloak his weakness in this area.

4. His RB albatross. For the life of me, this guy loves "rode hard, put up wet" over the hill, injury-prone cast off RBs. I'm hoping one of the FAs we picked up after the draft pan out (and that they just didn't see the talent there this year to waste a pick on), but the "plug in Running Back X into ZBS" hasn't worked. We got a gem in Slaton and I love the little spark plug, but we need some legitimate "bake" to Slaton's "shake."

By no means take my "Kubes isn't doing a great job yet" stance as me wanting the team to not win in order to prove me right. I want this team to win, as my five Texans jerseys and worn-out Texans ballcap will atest. I want them to win, and I honestly think they can if Kubes improves in a couple key areas. And there's enough talent on this team to succeed in spite of him now. I'm just not sold on the "he's a good guy, we need to give him a chance" philosophy that keeps us stuck in neutral for a good year or two more than we need. Not every coaching change is a "wipe the slate clean and rebuild" situation, and turnarounds come quicker now than ever before.

Just win, baby.

I wish I could give myself rep.

Double Barrel
09-14-2009, 10:43 AM
Funny zombie thread to read in hindsight. Forecast for Texans fans: cloudy and a slight chance of rain. No sunshine today, folks!

Runner
12-27-2010, 09:00 PM
Bump

Dammit Lucky!

My turn to bump this thread. It's been a zombie before.

With all the "I told you so" posts popping up, I thought it would be interesting to see what was told a year ago...

Thorn
12-27-2010, 09:37 PM
The Texans are a much better team under Kubiac, I just don't see where anyone can argue that particular fact.


What a moron. Why does anybody listen to this guy? :lol:

FirstTexansFan
12-27-2010, 09:39 PM
What a moron. Why does anybody listen to this guy? :lol:

Don't kick yourself, go back and read some of my Pro-Carr posts, it's a wonder I wasn't required to be neutered :)

JB
12-27-2010, 09:43 PM
What a moron. Why does anybody listen to this guy? :lol:

You have to admit that this 5-11 team is much better than that 7-9 team of Capers


Wait...what? :kubepalm:

scourge
12-27-2010, 09:51 PM
What a moron. Why does anybody listen to this guy? :lol:

Because you never know the crazy **** that will be said by a "Dirty Old Man" who seems to be drunk more often than not when posting... :)

brakos82
12-27-2010, 09:52 PM
What a moron. Why does anybody listen to this guy? :lol:

I dunno, I say he should kiss my ass!

CloakNNNdagger
12-27-2010, 09:57 PM
I dunno, I say he should kiss my ass!

Maybe doing that's what made him crazy in the first place.:)

FirstTexansFan
12-27-2010, 10:07 PM
Maybe doing that's what made him crazy in the first place.:)

Kissing Brakos butt will give you HIV.. (His Infectious Vista)

JB
12-27-2010, 10:14 PM
Kissing Brakos butt will give you HIV.. (His Infectious Vista)

:spit:

brakos82
12-27-2010, 10:16 PM
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb23/brakos82/vlcsnap-2010-09-20-14h25m34s75-1.png

Revolution
12-27-2010, 10:20 PM
What a moron. Why does anybody listen to this guy? :lol:

Must spread rep! LOL!

ThaShark316
12-27-2010, 10:23 PM
Kissing Brakos butt will give you HIV.. (His Infectious Vista)

I'm f'n dying lmaoooooooooo

Lucky
12-27-2010, 11:10 PM
Arizona won't get to the play-offs in 2009. Neither will the Saints, or the Jets. I think we will.
Sorry to bring this up TK, but I found you going 0-fer-4 on your 2009 playoff predictions rather amusing. As an update the 8 teams who have failed to make the playoffs in the 5 years Kubiak has been on the job:

Buffalo
Cleveland
Oakland
Detroit
San Francisco
Denver
St. Louis (that could change on Sunday)
And...
Your Houston Texans.

drs23
12-28-2010, 12:04 PM
Sorry to bring this up TK, but I found you going 0-fer-4 on your 2009 playoff predictions rather amusing. As an update the 8 teams who have failed to make the playoffs in the 5 years Kubiak has been on the job:

Buffalo
Cleveland
Oakland
Detroit
San Francisco
Denver
St. Louis (that could change on Sunday)
And...
Your Houston Texans.

OUCH! :roast: