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View Full Version : Shanahan thinks the "wildcat" is stupid too


barrett
05-04-2009, 01:39 AM
Or rather, "good for giving the defense looks."

When we run Wildcat, itís more to give our defense a look, Shanahan says. I think there are a lot of other ways to get people the ball. ...The Wildcat takes a lot of commitment if youíre going to use it, and that takes away from what our offense really is.

From Chron article: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6405172.html

Such a relief to know that our OC is planning on winning games using real football plays instead of schemes drawn up on a vibrating football board.

Go Texans.

mexican_texan
05-04-2009, 01:43 AM
The Wildcat got compared to the shotgun, but I just don't see it being around much longer.

m5kwatts
05-04-2009, 01:47 AM
And by "giving the defense looks" I think he means giving the TEXANS defense looks in practice preparing for teams like the Dolphins. Besides, the Wildcat is for pathetic offenses that can't find yardage anywhere else other than direct snapping it to their runningback (usually their best offensive threat)

TexanSam
05-04-2009, 01:50 AM
I liked seeing teams use it at times last year but it seemed to get out of hand pretty quickly.

bah007
05-04-2009, 01:50 AM
The Wildcat is just a gimmick. It's not something you can build an offense around. It's just a nice toy that a team can go to a few times per game.

To be honest, I'm really not that interested in running it at all unless we are going to use it significantly. I would rather prepare Casey for a role as an H Back. I think that will turn out to be his best fit.

m5kwatts
05-04-2009, 02:10 AM
The Wildcat is just a gimmick. It's not something you can build an offense around. It's just a nice toy that a team can go to a few times per game.

To be honest, I'm really not that interested in running it at all unless we are going to use it significantly. I would rather prepare Casey for a role as an H Back. I think that will turn out to be his best fit.

I think an insider receiver is his best fit. A scout said before the combine that "his next block will be his first block" (as heard on Path to the Draft NFLN). Not the kind of thing you want said about an h-back or fullback. But blocking can be learned and I'm not on the Texans coaching staff so what does my opinion matter :tiphat:

Mari-OWNED!
05-04-2009, 02:44 AM
I don't think the Wildcat offense is stupid. You just need the right players to run that offense, which the Texans do not have IMO.

Remember the Oilers and the run-and-shoot? They had the right players to run the offense.

With the Dolphins drafting Pat White, I'd be REALLY scared of the possibilities it gives them now running the Wildcat, they're almost endless!

bah007
05-04-2009, 02:51 AM
I think an insider receiver is his best fit. A scout said before the combine that "his next block will be his first block" (as heard on Path to the Draft NFLN). Not the kind of thing you want said about an h-back or fullback. But blocking can be learned and I'm not on the Texans coaching staff so what does my opinion matter :tiphat:

I think Casey will play most often as a slot WR early in his career, but I think that with good coaching he can eventually evolve into an H Back.

RipTraxx
05-04-2009, 04:04 AM
At best the wildcat is a phase....

Why it throws most defenses off is that a lot of times the "QB" is running back that takes the snap and takes off. Screwing up the timing for most defensive players.

IMO football is all about timing...And when you veer away from the traditional Snap to the QB, hand off, or ur typical step drop, it takes a little getting used to.

Now that there has been a year of the wildcat being run in the pros, i am pretty sure that you will see the effectiveness go way down.

dalemurphy
05-04-2009, 07:23 AM
I don't think the Wildcat offense is stupid. You just need the right players to run that offense, which the Texans do not have IMO.

Remember the Oilers and the run-and-shoot? They had the right players to run the offense.

With the Dolphins drafting Pat White, I'd be REALLY scared of the possibilities it gives them now running the Wildcat, they're almost endless!

I remember the Oilers had a great offensive line, incredible talent and depth at RB, a lot of talent on defense and decided to waste all of that and run that stupid offense which prevented them from seriously contending for a championship.

When it's 3rd and goal at the one yard line and you line up with 4 WRs every single time because you don't have a FB or TE on your roster, I think that pretty well illustrates that the decision-makers really don't understand football. Or, when you have a 32 point lead in the second half of a football game in January in Buffalo and the only running play you can run is a draw play, I think that's a sign that you have a pretty silly offensive philosophy.

BigBull17
05-04-2009, 08:14 AM
As was said before, its a way for a sub par offense to trick a defense a few times. Toward the end of the year, it didn't do as well and teams exploited it. I don't think it does much this year, with teams having a whole off zseason to prepair for it.

alphajoker
05-04-2009, 08:22 AM
Maybe I overlooked it in the article, but where does it say that Shanahan thinks the "wildcat" is stupid?

gtexan02
05-04-2009, 08:25 AM
You guys are so funny to listen to. You sound like a bunch of old people complaining about this new fangled "rock and roll" music. Its not real music, after all.

How is the wild cat not real football? It follows all the rules. Its just innovative and based on tricking the defense. Are you against play action passes as well?

I personally like the wildcat because I like innovation. I hope coaches continue to try out new ways of moving the ball on offense and stopping it on defense. I hope our coaches are open minded enough to think outside the box. If you don't like other teams using it, find a way to stop it.

If the Texans had been the ones to start the NFL wildcat and it led us to the playoffs, Im sure many of you would be singing a different tune

I just personally think its fun to watch. Anything that makes opposing defenses waste time in practice is ok by me

TheIronDuke
05-04-2009, 08:32 AM
I have no problem if we run the Wildcat, I just don't want to see Jacoby being the one taking the snap ever again.

ObsiWan
05-04-2009, 08:39 AM
You guys are so funny to listen to. You sound like a bunch of old people complaining about this new fangled "rock and roll" music. Its not real music, after all.

How is the wild cat not real football? It follows all the rules. Its just innovative and based on tricking the defense. Are you against play action passes as well?

I personally like the wildcat because I like innovation. I hope coaches continue to try out new ways of moving the ball on offense and stopping it on defense. I hope our coaches are open minded enough to think outside the box. If you don't like other teams using it, find a way to stop it.

If the Texans had been the ones to start the NFL wildcat and it led us to the playoffs, Im sure many of you would be singing a different tune

Or like the early, early football folks talking about that newfangled forward pass thing. "It'll never last. Real football players RUN with the ball! DagNabbit!!"
LOL.

TimeKiller
05-04-2009, 08:50 AM
Kid Shanny better lighten up because they just drafted a guy who almost garauntees that we'll see some innovative play calling. Call it what you will, the next step in the evolution of wildcat is a guy who can throw and run...guys like James Casey. I don't think anybody expects it to be half the playbook but disregarding something that could be really, really effective if done properly because "it's a phase" or you just plain don't like it is STUPID.

His next block will be his first? Yeah, it'll also be the first time anyone asked him to do that instead of be the heart, soul, legs, arm and brain of the offense. And a safety on defense.

Honoring Earl 34
05-04-2009, 09:04 AM
I remember the Oilers had a great offensive line, incredible talent and depth at RB, a lot of talent on defense and decided to waste all of that and run that stupid offense which prevented them from seriously contending for a championship.

When it's 3rd and goal at the one yard line and you line up with 4 WRs every single time because you don't have a FB or TE on your roster, I think that pretty well illustrates that the decision-makers really don't understand football. Or, when you have a 32 point lead in the second half of a football game in January in Buffalo and the only running play you can run is a draw play, I think that's a sign that you have a pretty silly offensive philosophy.

I bet the Oilers are the only team in history with two HOF offensive linemen never to win a superbowl .

awtysst
05-04-2009, 09:05 AM
You guys are so funny to listen to. You sound like a bunch of old people complaining about this new fangled "rock and roll" music. Its not real music, after all.

How is the wild cat not real football? It follows all the rules. Its just innovative and based on tricking the defense. Are you against play action passes as well?

I personally like the wildcat because I like innovation. I hope coaches continue to try out new ways of moving the ball on offense and stopping it on defense. I hope our coaches are open minded enough to think outside the box. If you don't like other teams using it, find a way to stop it.

If the Texans had been the ones to start the NFL wildcat and it led us to the playoffs, Im sure many of you would be singing a different tune

I just personally think its fun to watch. Anything that makes opposing defenses waste time in practice is ok by me

Dad gum it! You kids don't get the way football is supposed to be. In my day we ran the single wing offense and we loved it! None of this new fangled forward pass stuff. We didn't need it...

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d158/sulficio/abe-simpson-grandpa_www-txt2pic-com.jpg

CloakNNNdagger
05-04-2009, 09:28 AM
The Wildcat, when first instroduced, caught everyone flat-footed every time. As time went on, it was less effective, but effective enough to be an overall advantage. It does not only need to be used by a team with so-called weaknesses. With a team like ours, it can prove to be a "keep the defense honest" encouragement. With some players on the team that have QB experience, with us running a modified spread offense, with a back like Slaton, with monster TE/HBs, our team can run this type of formation without a tremendous amount of time and effort being put into it (since it closely parallels plays we already run). Adding this to our repetoire will only keep defenses from pinning back their ears. And with the WRs we have, that carry the long bomb threat on every play, the Wildcat will drive the safeties crazy........something that occurs when even weak offense teams use it.

Polo
05-04-2009, 09:33 AM
The only way I'd want to see this team implement a Wild cat package is after these players and these coaches have been here for a while...Then we can try all that stuff...

But as of right now, I want to see them do a better job utilizing the scheme we already have in place...

I think that the wildcat can be effective but it's something that will take a lot of practicing..And that's the kicker...our ZBS already takes a lot of practice because of all the small details that go into making any given play successful...

I just think that at this point there isn't enough practice time to get new players up to speed with our scheme and try to implement a wildcat...If they want to use it every blue moon thats one thing...but to implement it as a regular package is a whole other challenge..

HJam72
05-04-2009, 09:37 AM
wild-cat-run-n-shoot :mcnugget:

Nah, we'll let the Titans do it. :)

Polo
05-04-2009, 09:46 AM
WEST COAST wildcat run-n-shoot....

Get it right...

nunusguy
05-04-2009, 09:47 AM
Such a relief to know that our OC is planning on winning games using real football plays instead of schemes drawn up on a vibrating football board.

I dunno, but I'm wondering if some want the Texans to base their offense on the Single-Wing ? "Three yards and a cloud of dust" anybody ?
Dang Barrett, lighten-up a little bit would you ?

beerlover
05-04-2009, 10:02 AM
I'm looking forward to Tebow, I mean Casey to run some new fangled offensive sets that ultimate NFL Sunday moment :vinny:

Porky
05-04-2009, 10:11 AM
I think Barrett mis-charaterized what little Shanny said. Having said that, the hint is that we wouldn't be using it much if at all. That could change, as Casey is ideally suited for such a role. I certainly wouldn't want to use it as much as the Fins but I wouldn't mind seeing it here and there, just like I like seeing a reverse, a double reverse, a flea flicker, et al here and there.

nunusguy
05-04-2009, 10:25 AM
I'm looking forward to Tebow, I mean Casey to run some new fangled offensive sets that ultimate NFL Sunday moment :vinny:

I dunno, but I think Tebow is good for about 2 or 3 quarters of his college-type style before they carry him off of the field in an NFL preseason game ?

beerlover
05-04-2009, 11:03 AM
I dunno, but I think Tebow is good for about 2 or 3 quarters of his college-type style before they carry him off of the field in an NFL preseason game ?

let me re-phrase that, I'm looking forward to seeing what Casey can do in "Shanahan styled" creative offensive set's. :tiphat:

the wildcat is a gimmick name for an offensive package lacking pieces for a traditional offensive set, catching the defense out of position in mis-matches. Texans want to do it the old fashioned way & earn it.

Tim Tebow - 6030 238 James Casey - 6030 246

BigBull17
05-04-2009, 11:39 AM
I may be crazy, but I think if you take Tebow and completly design your offense around him, he'll do ok. He won't be the best QB, but he isn't a buster. He is a hard worker and completly driven to be the best possible. He is also thick enough that he should be able to take a lick or twwo.

pbat488
05-04-2009, 11:42 AM
At best the wildcat is a phase....

Why it throws most defenses off is that a lot of times the "QB" is running back that takes the snap and takes off. Screwing up the timing for most defensive players.

IMO football is all about timing...And when you veer away from the traditional Snap to the QB, hand off, or ur typical step drop, it takes a little getting used to.

Now that there has been a year of the wildcat being run in the pros, i am pretty sure that you will see the effectiveness go way down.

It throws defenses off because they usually have a man advantage over the offense due to the quarterback usually staying put in the backfield. In a Wildcat formation, defenses lose that advantage because every player on defense has to match with a player on offense. Goes from 11-10 in regards of defense to offense in normal offensive sets, to 11-11 in Wildcat running plays.

Polo
05-04-2009, 11:55 AM
It throws defenses off because they usually have a man advantage over the offense due to the quarterback usually staying put in the backfield. In a Wildcat formation, defenses lose that advantage because every player on defense has to match with a player on offense. Goes from 11-10 in regards of defense to offense in normal offensive sets, to 11-11 in Wildcat running plays.

I dunno about that...

On one hand you do have to worry about the running skills of the person taking the snap, but on the other hand you don't really have to worry about them picking your defense apart...

I think that the wildcat was as effective as it was because of the players that ran it, and the fact that it was something new to a lot of players so they were a little hesitant in defending it...

Schematically, I think it has its ups and downs just like most other systems...

The key for any style of offense (or defense for that matter) is having talented players...

Give me enough talent, and I'll let the players draw up plays in the dirt before each snap if they want to...

Hooston Texan
05-04-2009, 11:58 AM
It throws defenses off because they usually have a man advantage over the offense due to the quarterback usually staying put in the backfield. In a Wildcat formation, defenses lose that advantage because every player on defense has to match with a player on offense. Goes from 11-10 in regards of defense to offense in normal offensive sets, to 11-11 in Wildcat running plays.

True in theory, except that in most Wildcat plays, the "real" QB is split out wide. They can't put the QB on the sideline without eliminating the surprise element. (To me, the best way to discourage the Wildcat is to line up your meanest, nastiest hitting machine opposite the flanked-out QB and tell him to do his worst, regardless of what happens elsewhere on the play. I guarantee you that it won't take many plays before either the offense has to telegraph the formation with a substitution or they just abandon it altogether.)

Now, if Dogfighter gets back in the league or VY tries to salvage his career as a Wildcat QB, you might see some teams commit to the concept on more than just as an occasional trick play. But if we don't have the pieces, I see no need to force it into our playbook.

GP
05-04-2009, 12:05 PM
I think Miami is committed to it. Pat White is why. And if they can find a way to put Pat White back there with Pennington and Ronnie Brown or Ricky Williams, it does provide a bit of a problem for defenses.

If someone would just scream around the edge, as a blitzer, and absolutely destroy Pennington (even if he didn't get the snap) I think that would end the Wildcat, at least during that particular game. Take the ejection, take the games suspended for harming a defenseless player.

If you kill the run option by destroying the QB as he pitches the ball to the RB, do the same thing against the Wildcat. And what about the 99.9% chance of giving up the big play just to smash the QB? Meh. As long as you put the QB on the bench, you'll have that offensive coordinator putting the backup QB under the center on the next series. Congrats! You just got a quick 6. Does your QB know what city he's in?

I know that's harsh, but it is what it is. Buddy Ryan would definitely approve of that line of thinking. I miss that mean old SOB.

BigBull17
05-04-2009, 12:13 PM
I think Miami is committed to it. Pat White is why. And if they can find a way to put Pat White back there with Pennington and Ronnie Brown or Ricky Williams, it does provide a bit of a problem for defenses.

If someone would just scream around the edge, as a blitzer, and absolutely destroy Pennington (even if he didn't get the snap) I think that would end the Wildcat, at least during that particular game. Take the ejection, take the games suspended for harming a defenseless player.

If you kill the run option by destroying the QB as he pitches the ball to the RB, do the same thing against the Wildcat. And what about the 99.9% chance of giving up the big play just to smash the QB? Meh. As long as you put the QB on the bench, you'll have that offensive coordinator putting the backup QB under the center on the next series. Congrats! You just got a quick 6. Does your QB know what city he's in?

I know that's harsh, but it is what it is. Buddy Ryan would definitely approve of that line of thinking. I miss that mean old SOB.

I never understood how Pennington never got touched. Not punishing QB's is the unwritten rule, and I think thats dumb.

76Texan
05-04-2009, 12:20 PM
I never understood how Pennington never got touched. Not punishing QB's is the unwritten rule, and I think thats dumb.

Actually, in the wildcat, the pass is at the lowest as far as option goes.
Sure, I like the way some teams defend it by putting a DB there to take away that option. But the QB wouldn't go downfield unless he caught the DB napping so you really can't go head hunting on him.

Vinny
05-04-2009, 12:22 PM
I think Miami is committed to it. Pat White is why. And if they can find a way to put Pat White back there with Pennington and Ronnie Brown or Ricky Williams, it does provide a bit of a problem for defenses.
I think it is obvious that Miami is committed to the wildcat. No way you take Pat White in the 2nd round otherwise.

76Texan
05-04-2009, 12:25 PM
I dunno about that...

On one hand you do have to worry about the running skills of the person taking the snap, but on the other hand you don't really have to worry about them picking your defense apart...

I think that the wildcat was as effective as it was because of the players that ran it, and the fact that it was something new to a lot of players so they were a little hesitant in defending it...

Schematically, I think it has its ups and downs just like most other systems...

The key for any style of offense (or defense for that matter) is having talented players...

Give me enough talent, and I'll let the players draw up plays in the dirt before each snap if they want to...I agree with many things you said.

Personally, I can understand if our coaches don't want to commit about 10% of the plays and practice time on the wildcat.

We were working on our O-line last year, and it may be wise to concentrate on expanding the blocking schemes to bring it to the next level. So we can perform better in the redzone. That should be priority one.

Maybe we can try the wildcat later when we solve the redzone riddle.
Maybe we'll do it next year.

GP
05-04-2009, 12:27 PM
I think it is obvious that Miami is committed to the wildcat. No way you take Pat White in the 2nd round otherwise.

Yeah, they have that coach from Arkansas...they used it fairly well last season...and they used a 2nd round pick on a guy who can throw and run.

Not too hard to add it all up. I think other teams will use it sparingly, but I think Miami is going to use it even more than they ever did last season. And I think it has a good chance of blowing up in their faces, too.

If they are smart with it, I think it works. If they use it as the main source of productivity...last season will be their best season, and Sporano and his gang will become a joke over the next few seasons. Our tendency is to over-indulge in the things that we do well, and I think the great season the Dolphins had last year will give them a false sense of security.

Sometimes a team just has a goofy year, and I think Miami experienced that last year. Looking at their record, there wasn't much stiff competition outside of the Patriots and maybe 1 or 2 other teams. They couldn't even beat us, for crying out loud (and our defense was RIPE for the picking).

76Texan
05-04-2009, 12:39 PM
I definitely don't think the Wildcat is a gimmick, 'cause obviously, the Phins are commited to it.

The idea is to put your best players on the field, whether at a skill position, or to utilize your blockers to their potential.

So we have MS, AJ, Slaton, KW, OD
Then we have Leach and the 5 linemen.

Going to the wildcat really doesn't bring anything extra to the table for us.

Only when we have another really good player that we want to bring in to give one of those guys a breather should we do it.
And then it takes a lot of planning to incorporate the plays into our scheme. When? How?
In the early course of the game.
When we have a lead.
When we're behind.
Tons of things to consider before implementing it.

texicantone
05-04-2009, 12:39 PM
The Wildcat is fun to watch, but not is not going to lead a team to the Super Bowl. I believe Casey is going to turn into a much better Frank Wychek and possibly be as threatening in the passing game as Dallas Clark.

76Texan
05-04-2009, 12:41 PM
WEST COAST wildcat run-n-shoot....

Get it right...
Back to the WILD WILD WEST... COAST!

76Texan
05-04-2009, 12:44 PM
I dunno about that...

On one hand you do have to worry about the running skills of the person taking the snap, but on the other hand you don't really have to worry about them picking your defense apart...


Pat White!

He really has improved his passing game.

HOU-TEX
05-04-2009, 12:46 PM
I wonder if Dominique Barber think's the wildcat is stupid. :backsout:

Polo
05-04-2009, 01:22 PM
Pat White!

He really has improved his passing game.

To me, if you put Pat White in there then it just becomes the spread and he'd essentially be running the same offense he ran in college with a little more trickery to it...

Texan_Bill
05-04-2009, 01:37 PM
Remember the Oilers and the run-and-shoot? They had the right players to run the offense.

I remember the run and shoot being more effective under Glanville and called it the "Red Gun". The Oilers mostly ran a conventional offense and went to the "Red Gun" based on match-ups, change of pace, "catch-up" and situational situations. When Pardee went to the R and S full time, other teams eventually caught up and figured it out.

I see the same thing for the wildcat, it's the offense d' jour.

Vinny
05-04-2009, 01:42 PM
The Wildcat is fun to watch, but not is not going to lead a team to the Super Bowl. I believe Casey is going to turn into a much better Frank Wychek and possibly be as threatening in the passing game as Dallas Clark.He is Frank Wycheck with some RAC skills.

BigBull17
05-04-2009, 02:03 PM
I wonder if Dominique Barber think's the wildcat is stupid. :backsout:

That was Brandon Harrison watching the Full Back streak by for the TD.

HOU-TEX
05-04-2009, 02:23 PM
That was Brandon Harrison watching the Full Back streak by for the TD.

Ah, you are correct. Thanks.

BigBull17
05-04-2009, 02:26 PM
Ah, you are correct. Thanks.

Yeah, Harrison doesn't think its stupid. I think for some teams, its a good idea. I wouldn'y build my offense around running it. If you fall behind early, good luck. It doesn't seem like a come from behind offense.

GP
05-04-2009, 02:34 PM
To me, if you put Pat White in there then it just becomes the spread and he'd essentially be running the same offense he ran in college with a little more trickery to it...

What does it become when you have Pat White, Pennington and one of the running backs all in the backfield together? It could be a matchup nightmare.

Pennington can't do anything but pass. So the addition of Pat White creates confusion at the snap: Pat White is not a running back who can throw. He's a quarterback who can run.

Don't get me wrong: I don't think it will ultimately become something the Dolphins can use 80 or 90 or 100% of the time. But I do think they drafted Pat White for the Wild Cat, and as a backup to Pennington. So for their system, Pat White was a great fit in round 2.

I guess with Pat, Chad and Ronnie in the backfield...you have two white guys and a brown guy.

m5kwatts
05-04-2009, 02:45 PM
That was Brandon Harrison watching the Full Back streak by for the TD.

As hard a time as people give Reeves (which I think is unfair) Harrison was to blame for all those deep balls this year.....remember Yamon Figurs....or Greg Jennings...or Johnnie Lee Higgins... or Devin Hester... all those guys burned him deep badly and I'm sure I've left a few out

CloakNNNdagger
05-04-2009, 02:53 PM
I think Miami is committed to it. Pat White is why. And if they can find a way to put Pat White back there with Pennington and Ronnie Brown or Ricky Williams, it does provide a bit of a problem for defenses.

If someone would just scream around the edge, as a blitzer, and absolutely destroy Pennington (even if he didn't get the snap) I think that would end the Wildcat, at least during that particular game. Take the ejection, take the games suspended for harming a defenseless player.

If you kill the run option by destroying the QB as he pitches the ball to the RB, do the same thing against the Wildcat. And what about the 99.9% chance of giving up the big play just to smash the QB? Meh. As long as you put the QB on the bench, you'll have that offensive coordinator putting the backup QB under the center on the next series. Congrats! You just got a quick 6. Does your QB know what city he's in?

I know that's harsh, but it is what it is. Buddy Ryan would definitely approve of that line of thinking. I miss that mean old SOB.

A major risk with the Wildcat offense is that it leaves the regular quarterback vulnerable, especiallybeing split out as a receiver. In one game on several occasions, Baltimore cornerback Frank Walker jammed Pennington hard at the line of scrimmage, once knocking him on his butt.

76Texan
05-04-2009, 02:59 PM
To me, if you put Pat White in there then it just becomes the spread and he'd essentially be running the same offense he ran in college with a little more trickery to it...

To me, when the Dolphins put Pat White in there, they will have two legitimate QBs and two legitimate RBs on the field at the same time.

That's not trickery. That's a legitimate concern for any defense!

Goldensilence
05-04-2009, 03:05 PM
To me, when the Dolphins put Pat White in there, they will have two legitimate QBs and two legitimate RBs on the field at the same time.

That's not trickery. That's a legitimate concern for any defense!

I'm curious about the Pat White selection in the second for the 'phins. Is is to add a wrinkle to the Wildcat formation or is it more a look at what the current staff thinks of Henne and Beck. That organization has to be kicking itself over the Ginn Jr. selection.

BigBull17
05-04-2009, 03:09 PM
As hard a time as people give Reeves (which I think is unfair) Harrison was to blame for all those deep balls this year.....remember Yamon Figurs....or Greg Jennings...or Johnnie Lee Higgins... or Devin Hester... all those guys burned him deep badly and I'm sure I've left a few out

Reeves made some mistakes, but I think he was our best DB last year and kind of a bright spot. If he keeps it up, we're in good shape.

76Texan
05-04-2009, 03:16 PM
A major risk with the Wildcat offense is that it leaves the regular quarterback vulnerable, especiallybeing split out as a receiver. In one game on several occasions, Baltimore cornerback Frank Walker jammed Pennington hard at the line of scrimmage, once knocking him on his butt.

That can't be right CNND!

What I saw in that game the Dolphins were in the wildcat 6 times.
4 in the first atr, 1 each in the 3rd and 4th. Pennington wasn't involved in any play and he was standing tall each time. He can't be considered a receiver in any of those plays either.

Second Honeymoon
05-04-2009, 03:30 PM
And by "giving the defense looks" I think he means giving the TEXANS defense looks in practice preparing for teams like the Dolphins. Besides, the Wildcat is for pathetic offenses that can't find yardage anywhere else other than direct snapping it to their runningback (usually their best offensive threat)

this post wins the prize. shanny isn't a believer but he understands that he needs to understand it and be able to reproduce it in practice to help the team properly and thoroughly prepare. great post watts.

i am not a huge fan of the wildcat either and I doubt we use it much moving forward but I think Casey's future is as on 3rd down and short and goal line helping the rushing attack. If that means giving a wildcat-like look, so be it, as long as it works. Shanny/Kubes have shown some deficiency on 3rd and Short and in the 'Green Zone. Maybe they drafted Casey just to be special teams ace?....

Polo
05-04-2009, 03:41 PM
What does it become when you have Pat White, Pennington and one of the running backs all in the backfield together? It could be a matchup nightmare.

Pennington can't do anything but pass. So the addition of Pat White creates confusion at the snap: Pat White is not a running back who can throw. He's a quarterback who can run.


I think that removing Ricky from the equation makes the offense less effective....

Pat White can run the ball, but he is limited in what he can do...He is not going to take a handoff and run in between the tackles so that means that you will need to get him the ball in space or he'll need to be taking snaps for him to really pose a threat...

Pennington basically is no threat outside of a trick play. (meaning, I'm not worried about Pat White or whoever is taking the snap and directly throwing it to Pennington...Not gonna happen)

Ronnie Brown IMHO, isn't as much of a threat if he isn't taking the snaps directly...

To me the wildcat is all about having two high quality RB's in the backfield....So I dunno....It'll be interesting to see how they use PW....

Polo
05-04-2009, 03:46 PM
To me, when the Dolphins put Pat White in there, they will have two legitimate QBs and two legitimate RBs on the field at the same time.

That's not trickery. That's a legitimate concern for any defense!

See, as of right now I don't see Pat White as a legitimate anything...

I wouldn't call him a legit RB because I don't see him being able to fill a legit RB role right now...I don't see him as a legit QB for the same reason...

I think he could probably do either one, but he'd need to focus specifically on the required skill sets...

If Pat White were that good he'd have been a first rounder....Heck if he were considered good enough to be a legit QB & RB he'd have gone top ten....Right now, the only offense that Pat White seems like he can make an impact in his first year is the Dolphins...

CloakNNNdagger
05-04-2009, 03:47 PM
That can't be right CNND!

What I saw in that game the Dolphins were in the wildcat 6 times.
4 in the first atr, 1 each in the 3rd and 4th. Pennington wasn't involved in any play and he was standing tall each time. He can't be considered a receiver in any of those plays either.


Defensive coordinator Rex Ryan had cornerback Frank Walker jam Pennington, "Into the Gatorade," says Ravens coach John Harbaugh. That dissuaded Miami from exposing its quarterback to further Wildcat contact.
USA TODAY (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2008-12-08-wildcat-cover_N.htm)

76Texan
05-04-2009, 04:14 PM
I remember the run and shoot being more effective under Glanville and called it the "Red Gun". The Oilers mostly ran a conventional offense and went to the "Red Gun" based on match-ups, change of pace, "catch-up" and situational situations. When Pardee went to the R and S full time, other teams eventually caught up and figured it out.

I see the same thing for the wildcat, it's the offense d' jour.

The Lions with Sanders in those 3 years running the R&S was only 2nd to the Bears in rushing TD scored (by one).

Put Sanders on the Oilers team, hmmmmmmmmm!

That Bills game, it took 3 referees' calls and a lot of mistakes by our guys (most notably Moon and Jackson) to give them that win.

It had nothing to do with the run and shoot scheme, at least in that particular game! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif
:specnatz:

76Texan
05-04-2009, 04:22 PM
Defensive coordinator Rex Ryan had cornerback Frank Walker jam Pennington, "Into the Gatorade," says Ravens coach John Harbaugh. That dissuaded Miami from exposing its quarterback to further Wildcat contact.
USA TODAY (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2008-12-08-wildcat-cover_N.htm)

What they say and what actually happened was two different matters.
I have the game tape I can show you.

I was wrong, it was 4 plays in the 2nd qtr

NFL.com 2nd qtr

1-10-MIA 48 (14:20) Direct snap to 23 Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 23-R.Brown left guard to MIA 47 for -1 yards (94-J.Bannan).
2-11-MIA 47 (13:41) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) PENALTY on MIA-68-I.Ndukwe, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at MIA 47 - No Play.

1-10-MIA 40 (10:14) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 34-R.Williams right tackle to MIA 45 for 5 yards (94-J.Bannan).
2-5-MIA 45 (9:37) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 23-R.Brown left tackle to MIA 45 for no gain (91-M.Douglas).

3rd qtr
2-2-BAL 4 (5:45) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 23-R.Brown right tackle to BAL 7 for -3 yards (28-T.Zbikowski).

4th qtr
3-10-BAL 22 (4:55) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 38-P.Cobbs left end to BAL 19 for 3 yards (41-F.Walker).

I can describe each play later.

midgetonadonkey
05-04-2009, 04:23 PM
I think more teams should use the swinging gate formation.

76Texan
05-04-2009, 04:26 PM
See, as of right now I don't see Pat White as a legitimate anything...

I wouldn't call him a legit RB because I don't see him being able to fill a legit RB role right now...I don't see him as a legit QB for the same reason...

I think he could probably do either one, but he'd need to focus specifically on the required skill sets...

If Pat White were that good he'd have been a first rounder....Heck if he were considered good enough to be a legit QB & RB he'd have gone top ten....Right now, the only offense that Pat White seems like he can make an impact in his first year is the Dolphins...

A legit does not have to be a franchise QB or RB!

Polo
05-04-2009, 04:26 PM
I think more teams should use the swinging gate formation.

LOL...

Why?

I never actually understood what that accomplished???

midgetonadonkey
05-04-2009, 04:39 PM
LOL...

Why?

I never actually understood what that accomplished???

Because it will throw off defenses. It may be so ridiculous it's brilliant.

CloakNNNdagger
05-04-2009, 04:41 PM
What they say and what actually happened was two different matters.
I have the game tape I can show you.

I was wrong, it was 4 plays in the 2nd qtr

NFL.com 2nd qtr

1-10-MIA 48 (14:20) Direct snap to 23 Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 23-R.Brown left guard to MIA 47 for -1 yards (94-J.Bannan).
2-11-MIA 47 (13:41) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) PENALTY on MIA-68-I.Ndukwe, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at MIA 47 - No Play.

1-10-MIA 40 (10:14) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 34-R.Williams right tackle to MIA 45 for 5 yards (94-J.Bannan).
2-5-MIA 45 (9:37) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 23-R.Brown left tackle to MIA 45 for no gain (91-M.Douglas).

3rd qtr
2-2-BAL 4 (5:45) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 23-R.Brown right tackle to BAL 7 for -3 yards (28-T.Zbikowski).

4th qtr
3-10-BAL 22 (4:55) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 38-P.Cobbs left end to BAL 19 for 3 yards (41-F.Walker).

I can describe each play later.

I don't know what the discrepancy is, but a similar account was given on Bal.scout.com, with a direct quote from Walker to that effect.

Vinny
05-04-2009, 05:00 PM
I think more teams should use the swinging gate formation.we have a great forum. When you get to a point when a guy named midetonadonkey brings up the swinging gate formation in a wildcat thread....I think we've made it.

thunderkyss
05-04-2009, 05:06 PM
I'm looking forward to Tebow, I mean Casey to run some new fangled offensive sets that ultimate NFL Sunday moment :vinny:

This is what I'm talking about.

I'm not a fan of "The Wildcat", I'd rather not see it again. But it looks like the league is moving that way.

For one, this RBC thing. If you're already going to have two/three quality RBs on your team.... why not get them all on the field at the same time?

Secondly, You're QBs coming out of college, are getting more & more athletic. Matt Jones, Vince Young, Pat White, Tim Tebow...... and really there are more that have come and gone in the league. But they QBs that can throw, are getting more mobile, and the mobile QBs are getting more accurate..... It's only a matter of time these guys get "too talented" not to put on the field.

third, all the players are getting more and more talented. RBs that can play WR, WR that are dangerous in space, TEs that do everything... the possibilities are limitless for a creative OC with a huge set.

& fourth, it's about time we got a new wrinkle. Someone already mentioned it. The Reverse, the flea flicker, the double reverse, the direct snap.... the NFL has already "accounted" for them.

I don't think we'll see 3 downs of Wildcat formation...... I don't think it'll be as prolific as the shotgun, the run & shoot, the spread...... but you never know.

HOU-TEX
05-04-2009, 05:10 PM
we have a great forum. When you get to a point when a guy named midetonadonkey brings up the swinging gate formation in a wildcat thread....I think we've made it.

LMAO! I think he needs to be directed to the "Explain your User Name" thread.

Wolf
05-04-2009, 05:11 PM
we have a great forum. When you get to a point when a guy named midetonadonkey brings up the swinging gate formation in a wildcat thread....I think we've made it.

has the thread jump the shark?


if so /end thread

Wolf
05-04-2009, 05:15 PM
this is what CND is seeing
taming the wildcat (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2009/01/Taming_the_Wildcat.aspx)

miami newspaper print
blitzing to stop the wildcat?
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/football/pro/dolphins/sfl-wildcat1019,0,7689923.story

76Texan
05-04-2009, 05:24 PM
I don't know what the discrepancy is, but a similar account was given on Bal.scout.com, with a direct quote from Walker to that effect.

1-10-MIA 48 (14:20) Direct snap to 23 Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 23-R.Brown left guard to MIA 47 for -1 yards (94-J.Bannan).

Pennington (on the right side) actually gave a push to the DB who defended him. He was towering over that guy!

2-11-MIA 47 (13:41) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) PENALTY on MIA-68-I.Ndukwe, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at MIA 47 - No Play.
Pennington went to the other side, again, he was towering over the DB.
A courtesy chuck as in how do you do!

1-10-MIA 40 (10:14) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 34-R.Williams right tackle to MIA 45 for 5 yards (94-J.Bannan).

Pennington back to the right side.
Actually, the DB was napping. A quick flip pass to Pennington would most likely result in a TD. Depending on whether the safety can comes fast enough to support.


2-5-MIA 45 (9:37) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 23-R.Brown left tackle to MIA 45 for no gain (91-M.Douglas).

To the left side, both him and the DB just stood around.

3rd qtr
2-2-BAL 4 (5:45) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 23-R.Brown right tackle to BAL 7 for -3 yards (28-T.Zbikowski).

On the right side. All alone, actually.
It's difficult to get the ball to him, unless it's Pat White back there.
But no, NOBODY has remotedly threatened to touch him so far in the wildcat formation.

4th qtr
3-10-BAL 22 (4:55) Direct snap to 23 - Brown, Ronnie. (Shotgun) 38-P.Cobbs left end to BAL 19 for 3 yards (41-F.Walker).

On the left side.
He actually tried to make contact, but nobody wanted to engage him!

76Texan
05-04-2009, 05:28 PM
this is what CND is seeing
taming the wildcat (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2009/01/Taming_the_Wildcat.aspx)

miami newspaper print
blitzing to stop the wildcat?
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/football/pro/dolphins/sfl-wildcat1019,0,7689923.story

There's no magic to it.
When you can penetrate the LOS in more than one place, you stand a very good chance to stop an offense, no matter what scheme they are in.

(especially when you can also take away the screen pass.)

ObsiWan
05-04-2009, 07:09 PM
I think that removing Ricky from the equation makes the offense less effective....

Pat White can run the ball, but he is limited in what he can do...He is not going to take a handoff and run in between the tackles so that means that you will need to get him the ball in space or he'll need to be taking snaps for him to really pose a threat...

Pennington basically is no threat outside of a trick play. (meaning, I'm not worried about Pat White or whoever is taking the snap and directly throwing it to Pennington...Not gonna happen)

Ronnie Brown IMHO, isn't as much of a threat if he isn't taking the snaps directly...

To me the wildcat is all about having two high quality RB's in the backfield....So I dunno....It'll be interesting to see how they use PW....

A better mix - as far as keeping the defense guessing - would be Ronnie Brown, Ricky Williams, and Pat White.