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View Full Version : Michael Lombardi (CBSSports/NFLNET) wonders if Texans' Draft gets people fired ?


nunusguy
05-01-2009, 02:22 PM
HOUSTON: If I had to pick one draft that I was not excited about, this would be the one. But I might be too hard on my evaluation of Brian Cushing and Connor Barwin. I just don't see how these two players can help a slow, non-pass-rushing defense get better. Time will tell, but this is the kind of draft that the Texans' front office better have right or it might not improve their team in '09 -- and it might cost some people some jobs. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11683747
**************************************
1560 show - Lombardi show this morning Friday, May 1
http://thegame.podbean.com/category/john-and-lance-show/
*******************************************
I liked the Draft (I'd give it 'bout a B), but this guy didn't and asks if the decisions made could get Kubiak & Co canned by McNair.
"Thegame" link provided herein has a podcast of Lombardi's statements on 1560 this morning which elaborates the theme - basically says that Cushing is off the field on 3rd downs and Barwin, while athletic, may not be "disruptive".
He says the Texans have a tremendous offense, but still may lack that all-important pass-rusher to help Mario and their D.

WolverineFan
05-01-2009, 02:26 PM
All of the CBSsports writers are terrible. Do not pay attention to anything they write.

Blake
05-01-2009, 02:32 PM
He would pick ours as not exciting? Did he even see the Steelers draft?

Oh wait, I just looked at his analysis of the Steelers draft and he wrote this. "PITTSBURGH: Mike Tomlin is my favorite coach, for sure. We had him on the Network, and he had me pumped up to play. What was more impressive than his motivational talks were his understanding of player development and what his coaching staff must do to make these players help the Steelers. No matter who the Steelers picked, they had a great draft because Tomlin will demand it from the players."

What a bias dufus.

m5kwatts
05-01-2009, 02:54 PM
Lombardi is a former Raider personnel guy. Read with extreme skepticism.

drewmar74
05-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Lombardi is a former Raider personnel guy. Read with extreme skepticism.

:eek:

Damn fine point.

Porky
05-01-2009, 03:09 PM
Mike Mayock pimped our draft on the same network, and I trust Mayock ten times more than this blowhard. If he is so great, why was he canned as a GM multiple times and now has to bloviate on the NFL Network?

ArlingtonTexan
05-01-2009, 03:14 PM
As I read grades and evaluations, the difference between those who gave high grades versus lower ones is how much the writer liked Cushing (in particualr) and Barwin.

BTW, gotta love the ad hominem fallacy going in this thread.

Texaninlild
05-01-2009, 03:39 PM
So when does Michael Lombardi join the ranks of the unemployed? How do many of these folks get the job? Everything I have read on the draft has been positive with the exception of CBS.

Big Poundcake
05-01-2009, 03:43 PM
"I just don't see how these two players can help a slow, non-pass-rushing defense get better."

Uhhh.....what??? This guy can't see how a fast high motor LB and a freak blitzing DE/LB can help the defense??!!

Come on now....what?

Does he realize that the Texans picked DE Antonio Smith as well? This type of stuff does not compute.

cuppacoffee
05-01-2009, 03:51 PM
As I read grades and evaluations, the difference between those who gave high grades versus lower ones is how much the writer liked Cushing (in particualr) and Barwin.

BTW, gotta love the ad hominem fallacy going in this thread.


Proper responses to such a wishy washy draft opinion expressed by the writer.

"I just don't see how these two players can help a slow, non-pass-rushing defense get better. Time will tell, but this is the kind of draft that the Texans' front office better have right or it might not improve their team in '09 -- and it might cost some people some jobs."

ad hominem - attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.

The guy really didn't make any contentions, only gave his opinion, which doesn't seem to carry much weight with the threads' responders.

Maybe the way his opinion was discounted could be viewed as an attack on his character, but I didn't see it that way.

Where is the fallacy?


:coffee:

GP
05-01-2009, 03:52 PM
As I read grades and evaluations, the difference between those who gave high grades versus lower ones is how much the writer liked Cushing (in particualr) and Barwin.

BTW, gotta love the ad hominem fallacy going in this thread.

Sheesh. I had to look those two words up, just to understand you. Come on Arlington, bring it down from the top shelf where we can reach it. j/k

From wikipedia (for those of you in Rio Linda):

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.


A fallacy is an argument that is not logically sound. The truth of the conclusions of an argument does not determine whether the argument is a fallacy - it is the argument which is fallacious.

Fallacies can be categorized in a number of ways, including:

Formal (or Logical) fallacies versus Informal fallacies
A formal fallacy relies on an incorrect logical step. An informal fallacy does not rely on incorrect logical deduction.
Verbal fallacies
Verbal fallacies use some property of language to mislead. For example, ambiguity or verbosity.
Fallacies are also often concerned with causality, which is not strictly addressed by logic. They may also involve implicit (or unstated) assumptions.

Fallacies often exploit emotional triggers in the listener or interlocutor. For example, an argument may appeal to patriotism or family or may exploit an intellectual weakness of the listener. Fallacious arguments may also take advantage of social relationships between people. For example, citing support of important individuals to encourage listeners to agree with a conclusion.

Considered by themselves, fallacies can often seem obvious. However, arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure the logical argument - deliberately or not - making observing fallacies difficult. Also, the component parts of the fallacy may be spread over a large period of time

beerlover
05-01-2009, 04:04 PM
I would trust Lomardi over Casserly even Mayock, the reason why - all are equally passionate about the draft, but he seems to learn from his mistakes. Mayock tends to fall in love w/players too much. Casserly is past prime time & lives too much in the past.

Lomardi also mentioned he needs to do more work, as we all do so obviously the jury is going to out for at least a couple years. I will say this I feel better today about Cushing/Barwin than I did when the picks where made, all I could post without complete meltdown was a 1st day grade off the top of my steaming head a B-. If I could change that without even playing a down I would move it up to a solid B. If Cushing is great & Bawin makes some plays it could easily move up to a B+. Of course if both are off the chain, which we all hope its automatic A+. bottom line they addressed the defense just like everyone expected with a not so expected developmental high ceiling prospet (Barwin) & a true 1st rd. talent (Cushing). :texflag:

ArlingtonTexan
05-01-2009, 04:07 PM
Proper responses to such a wishy washy draft opinion expressed by the writer.

"I just don't see how these two players can help a slow, non-pass-rushing defense get better. Time will tell, but this is the kind of draft that the Texans' front office better have right or it might not improve their team in '09 -- and it might cost some people some jobs."

ad hominem - attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.

The guy really didn't make any contentions, only gave his opinion, which doesn't seem to carry much weight with the threads' responders.

Maybe the way his opinion was discounted could be viewed as an attack on his character, but I didn't see it that way.

Where is the fallacy?


:coffee:

Let me guess you did not sit through the entire thrity minute segemnt where explains why he held the opinion, but also compliments other selections of the Texans.

yes, you got what i considered the fallacy.

ArlingtonTexan
05-01-2009, 04:13 PM
Sheesh. I had to look those two words up, just to understand you. Come on Arlington, bring it down from the top shelf where we can reach it. j/k

From wikipedia (for those of you in Rio Linda):

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.


A fallacy is an argument that is not logically sound. The truth of the conclusions of an argument does not determine whether the argument is a fallacy - it is the argument which is fallacious.

Fallacies can be categorized in a number of ways, including:

Formal (or Logical) fallacies versus Informal fallacies
A formal fallacy relies on an incorrect logical step. An informal fallacy does not rely on incorrect logical deduction.
Verbal fallacies
Verbal fallacies use some property of language to mislead. For example, ambiguity or verbosity.
Fallacies are also often concerned with causality, which is not strictly addressed by logic. They may also involve implicit (or unstated) assumptions.

Fallacies often exploit emotional triggers in the listener or interlocutor. For example, an argument may appeal to patriotism or family or may exploit an intellectual weakness of the listener. Fallacious arguments may also take advantage of social relationships between people. For example, citing support of important individuals to encourage listeners to agree with a conclusion.

Considered by themselves, fallacies can often seem obvious. However, arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure the logical argument - deliberately or not - making observing fallacies difficult. Also, the component parts of the fallacy may be spread over a large period of time


:goodpost: I usually keep my work and on the board lives separate.

Porky
05-01-2009, 04:22 PM
Let me guess you did not sit through the entire thrity minute segemnt where explains why he held the opinion, but also compliments other selections of the Texans.

yes, you got what i considered the fallacy.

The draft consists of 7 rounds. The post said "if there is one DRAFT I am not excited about..." but then he goes on to say he liked some of the picks. Have I got that right?

The other thing is he doesn't get how a couple of highly athletic fast guys with backgrounds of rushing the passer will help us get faster, more athletic and help with the pass rush.

Have a got that summed up? If there is an ad hominen fallacy going on here, it's being perpertrated by Lombardi.

thunderkyss
05-01-2009, 04:23 PM
HOUSTON: If I had to pick one draft that I was not excited about, this would be the one. But I might be too hard on my evaluation of Brian Cushing and Connor Barwin. I just don't see how these two players can help a slow, non-pass-rushing defense get better. Time will tell, but this is the kind of draft that the Texans' front office better have right or it might not improve their team in '09 -- and it might cost some people some jobs. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11683747

I think, instead of bashing this guy, we should back up, and look at his statements objectively.

First of all, he says that he may be too harsh on his evaluation of Cush & Barwin. So right there, he's kind of apologizing before he even starts. He may think Cushing is overrated, he may think Connor Barwin doesn't fit in a 4-3 system.

Does that make sense?

This year, I've heard the talk, that a team has to be careful when drafting USC athletes, because they may have been able to hide their weaknesses with all the talent on that team. Prior to the draft, most people believed their three starting LBs would go before the 20th pick of the first round.
So he may have a point.

Now Barwin was projected as an OLB at the NFL level. Not many expected him to come to the NFL and play DE. If he were looked at as a DE, I doubt he would have been predicted to go as high as we picked him. So, I think he may have another point.

& looking at Cushings combine numbers, he isn't uncannily fast or quick. & Barwin played at Cincinnatti.... against who?

I am not saying dude is right, only that he makes valid points. Both Cushing & Barwin are gambles IMHO. I don't know if there were any better choices, but I don't believe either pick are sure things.

I don't trust Smithiak........ but I admit they hit more times than not in the draft, from top to bottom, so I believe the chances for these two to become stars are better than good.

Now I think he is way off base thinking these are make or break picks for Smithiak. I think we left a couple of wins on the field last year, and the year before, due to coaching flaws. Whether these two are who we thought they were or not, we will have a winning season, and Smithiak will manage our '10 draft. If they struck gold with these two, and it's very possible, we'll probably win our division, and Smithiak won't be able to start working on the draft as early as they may have become accustomed to.

Polo
05-01-2009, 04:24 PM
If there is an ad hominen fallacy going on here, it's being perpertrated by Lombardi.

Agreed.

ObsiWan
05-01-2009, 04:33 PM
So when does Michael Lombardi join the ranks of the unemployed? How do many of these folks get the job? Everything I have read on the draft has been positive with the exception of CBS.

Actually, the CBS Sports guys have been positive this year. I think Lombardi is alone in this.

Judge:
It's almost impossible to ace the NFL Draft, but each year someone comes close -- and this year that someone was the Houston Texans (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/HOU). Nearly everywhere they looked they found value with their choices, with pass rusher Connor Barwin in the second round and multi-purpose tight James Casey in the fifth two examples.

Prisco:

http://images.sportsline.com/images/nfl/features/helmets/HOU.gif (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/HOU)
Best pick: I really like third-round pick Antoine Caldwell, a center from Alabama. He will be their starter in a year.
Questionable move: Not getting a secondary player early in the draft. That was a definite need.

Second-day gem: Tight end James Casey, taken in the fifth round, is a good pass-catching tight end who can complement Owen Daniels.

Grade: B
I liked Brian Cushing in the first round and they added a lot of nice picks after that.

Rob Rang: (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/story/11683687)

Houston Texas (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/HOU): B-
The Texans focused on pass rushers, safeties and tight ends in the 2009 draft, devoting multiple selections to each over the weekend. Versatility was also key, as the Texans selected two of the more adaptable athletes of the draft in Connor Barwin and James Casey. Outside linebacker Brian Cushing should make the most immediate impact, though the athletic Barwin could take advantage of the blocking devoted to Houston's front four. New Mexico cornerback Glover Quinn could make the transition to free safety for the Texans. Considering the presence of Owen Daniels, it was a surprise to see the Texans take Casey, as well as Anthony Hill. With much of their pre-draft focus on adding a bigger running back to complement Steve Slaton, the lack of any help at this position could come back to haunt the Texans should the diminutive back struggle through a sophomore slump.

Hardcore Texan
05-01-2009, 04:34 PM
Who is this guy anyway? Never heard of him. Want to know something funny, I copied and pasted his name into the search window and searched cbssports.com for his info/bio/pic so I could get a picture of my next favorite asshat writer and this is what I found:

Your search - Michael Lombardi - did not match any documents.
No pages were found containing "Michael Lombardi".
Suggestions:

- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.

:spit:

Hardcore Texan
05-01-2009, 04:37 PM
Had to google him to figure out who he was.......that's who I was thinking, he's already an asshat, glad he picked our draft to suck that means we are destined for greatness.....:specnatz:

Polo
05-01-2009, 04:40 PM
This year, I've heard the talk, that a team has to be careful when drafting USC athletes, because they may have been able to hide their weaknesses with all the talent on that team.

I just wanted to comment on this.

I don't see how this argument makes sense.

If they have "all that talent on the team" why would you be suspect about taking on of their best players?

That'd essentially mean that the teams best player had his weaknesses hid by players that were more talented but didn't look as good??

I can see being suspect about fringe guys on a really talented team, but not one of the better players.

Polo
05-01-2009, 04:42 PM
I like the Barwin and Casey pick-ups because those are two guys that I wouldn't have wanted to see the Colts get. Hopefully its a double whammy.

Increase the talent on our team, and not let other teams get guys that fit their system perfectly.

m5kwatts
05-01-2009, 04:43 PM
I think a point that all experts have failed to emphasize with Cushing is his pedigree. The guy has excelled and won championships at every level of football from peewee to high school to college. He's been the best most talented player on every defense he's played on, so the "he's been surrounded by great talent" arguement doesn't work, it was the other guys benefitting from his presence. He's won MVPs in bowl games. He's been a standout leader on every team he's played on. Heck, he might be the safest pick in this draft. He's been around FOREVER, think about it he was a freshman on the '05 rose bowl team that lost to the Longhorns, he was too good to be redshirted on one of the best college football teams ever. The kid has been overscrutinized because he's been around for so long. There's not many football careers comparable to his at this point in my opinion and I can't wait to see the pro football part of it.

Mari-OWNED!
05-01-2009, 04:47 PM
Well Lombardi has been fired multiple times for being bad at evaluating talent, so that might just tell us something...

ArlingtonTexan
05-01-2009, 04:50 PM
I think, instead of bashing this guy, we should back up, and look at his statements objectively.

First of all, he says that he may be too harsh on his evaluation of Cush & Barwin. So right there, he's kind of apologizing before he even starts. He may think Cushing is overrated, he may think Connor Barwin doesn't fit in a 4-3 system.

Does that make sense?

This year, I've heard the talk, that a team has to be careful when drafting USC athletes, because they may have been able to hide their weaknesses with all the talent on that team. Prior to the draft, most people believed their three starting LBs would go before the 20th pick of the first round.
So he may have a point.

Now Barwin was projected as an OLB at the NFL level. Not many expected him to come to the NFL and play DE. If he were looked at as a DE, I doubt he would have been predicted to go as high as we picked him. So, I think he may have another point.

& looking at Cushings combine numbers, he isn't uncannily fast or quick. & Barwin played at Cincinnatti.... against who?

I am not saying dude is right, only that he makes valid points. Both Cushing & Barwin are gambles IMHO. I don't know if there were any better choices, but I don't believe either pick are sure things.

I don't trust Smithiak........ but I admit they hit more times than not in the draft, from top to bottom, so I believe the chances for these two to become stars are better than good.

Now I think he is way off base thinking these are make or break picks for Smithiak. I think we left a couple of wins on the field last year, and the year before, due to coaching flaws. Whether these two are who we thought they were or not, we will have a winning season, and Smithiak will manage our '10 draft. If they struck gold with these two, and it's very possible, we'll probably win our division, and Smithiak won't be able to start working on the draft as early as they may have become accustomed to.


This is what I was hoping to see more. there are plenty of flaws in what he said, but everyone was jumping who said it.

badboy
05-01-2009, 05:01 PM
Sheesh. I had to look those two words up, just to understand you. Come on Arlington, bring it down from the top shelf where we can reach it. j/k

From wikipedia (for those of you in Rio Linda):

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.


A fallacy is an argument that is not logically sound. The truth of the conclusions of an argument does not determine whether the argument is a fallacy - it is the argument which is fallacious.

Fallacies can be categorized in a number of ways, including:

Formal (or Logical) fallacies versus Informal fallacies
A formal fallacy relies on an incorrect logical step. An informal fallacy does not rely on incorrect logical deduction.
Verbal fallacies
Verbal fallacies use some property of language to mislead. For example, ambiguity or verbosity.
Fallacies are also often concerned with causality, which is not strictly addressed by logic. They may also involve implicit (or unstated) assumptions.

Fallacies often exploit emotional triggers in the listener or interlocutor. For example, an argument may appeal to patriotism or family or may exploit an intellectual weakness of the listener. Fallacious arguments may also take advantage of social relationships between people. For example, citing support of important individuals to encourage listeners to agree with a conclusion.

Considered by themselves, fallacies can often seem obvious. However, arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure the logical argument - deliberately or not - making observing fallacies difficult. Also, the component parts of the fallacy may be spread over a large period of timeMan, I am glad you cleared that up. Ad is short for advertisement and hominey is a type of corn and fallacy has something to do with oral sex so I was wondering where this was going....

Anyway, Cushing said he and Demeco ain't coming out of no game.

TimeKiller
05-01-2009, 05:06 PM
Who is this guy to make such a statement about somebody else's job?

MojoMan
05-01-2009, 05:14 PM
If Connor Barwin and James Casey both turn out to be spectacular busts, I still do not believe that would, on its own, be enough to get Kubiak fired. However, these are two rather risky picks. If they work out well, then the Texans fron office is genius. If not, then both picks are speculative enough where this will not look good. Let's remember, both of these guys are effectively developmental players. Spending both a second and a fifth round pick on developmental players in the same draft is sticking your neck out a bit.

As an aside, I am happy with these two picks, but I do appreciate the risky nature of both of them.

thunderkyss
05-01-2009, 05:15 PM
I can see being suspect about fringe guys on a really talented team, but not one of the better players.



I think a point that all experts have failed to emphasize with Cushing is his pedigree. The guy has excelled and won championships at every level of football from peewee to high school to college. He's been the best most talented player on every defense he's played on, so the "he's been surrounded by great talent" arguement doesn't work, it was the other guys benefitting from his presence.

I'm not saying the guy is right, I'm just saying I can see where he is coming from. I see where you're coming from, and I already stated where I am at.

nunusguy
05-01-2009, 05:41 PM
I think, instead of bashing this guy, we should back up, and look at his statements objectively.

First of all, he says that he may be too harsh on his evaluation of Cush & Barwin. So right there, he's kind of apologizing before he even starts. He may think Cushing is overrated, he may think Connor Barwin doesn't fit in a 4-3 system.

Does that make sense?

This year, I've heard the talk, that a team has to be careful when drafting USC athletes, because they may have been able to hide their weaknesses with all the talent on that team. Prior to the draft, most people believed their three starting LBs would go before the 20th pick of the first round.
So he may have a point.

Now Barwin was projected as an OLB at the NFL level. Not many expected him to come to the NFL and play DE. If he were looked at as a DE, I doubt he would have been predicted to go as high as we picked him. So, I think he may have another point.

& looking at Cushings combine numbers, he isn't uncannily fast or quick. & Barwin played at Cincinnatti.... against who?

I am not saying dude is right, only that he makes valid points. Both Cushing & Barwin are gambles IMHO. I don't know if there were any better choices, but I don't believe either pick are sure things.

I don't trust Smithiak........ but I admit they hit more times than not in the draft, from top to bottom, so I believe the chances for these two to become stars are better than good.

Now I think he is way off base thinking these are make or break picks for Smithiak. I think we left a couple of wins on the field last year, and the year before, due to coaching flaws. Whether these two are who we thought they were or not, we will have a winning season, and Smithiak will manage our '10 draft. If they struck gold with these two, and it's very possible, we'll probably win our division, and Smithiak won't be able to start working on the draft as early as they may have become accustomed to.
Good stuff Thunderkyss. Actually damn good !
Couple things - I might have used my 5th round pick to move up a couple clicks to get Everette Brown ? Don't get me wrong, I really like Barwins tremendous upside, but he's risky and Brown has a more established resume as an edge-rusher. But Brown or Barwin or whoever, I'm glad we're stepping up and paying the price for a guy like this even though he's just situational, early on atleast.
And I wouldn't go quite that high for a SAM, maybe get one in a later round and use our #1 on the best DB on the Texans Board, but the Texans obviously chose to turn those priorities upside down. And I'm a little concerned about Cushing on passing situations, but we'll find out about all of that in due time. But the fact that he started for one of the elite programs in the country for 3 or 4 years (since he was a teenager), says a lot I think and was one of the primary reasons I preferred him over Matthews.
But I'm feeling pretty good about our Draft and really looking forward to seeing these guys out there in Texans unis.

beerlover
05-01-2009, 06:08 PM
Who is this guy to make such a statement about somebody else's job?

been there done that.

its time for the Texans defense to match the offensive production especially with all the high draft picks & investments that side of the ball. the pressure is on to now show something for it & make the playoffs. no more excuses thats why the picks have to be the right ones & pan out this go around :shades:

Specnatz
05-01-2009, 06:51 PM
the Texans' front office better have right or it might not improve their team in '09 -- and it might cost some people some jobs. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11683747
**************************************


Isn't this true about most teams drafts? Oh sure you have the Colts and patriots who could screw up a draft and it not be noticed. Raiders screw up the draft every year so no big deal there. Dallas and redskins have the owner draft so no one in the front office is going anywhere.

Anytime your picking in the top 15 you have to hit on most of your draft picks or you will be picking in the top 10 next year.

LonerATO
05-01-2009, 08:44 PM
Lombardi is a former Raider personnel guy. Read with extreme skepticism.

LOL great stuff and you wonder why he is pimping his ass off TV and his super lame website.

eriadoc
05-01-2009, 09:13 PM
I don't trust Smithiak........ but I admit they hit more times than not in the draft, from top to bottom, so I believe the chances for these two to become stars are better than good.

So I take it there's nothing they can do to make you trust them? I mean, if they've proven they can hit more often than not, I'll trust them. Now I may not trust them in FA, but as far as the draft is concerned, they keep taking players that the average fan doesn't know, and then they work out. So I trust 'em.

Lucky
05-01-2009, 09:15 PM
Mike Mayock pimped our draft on the same network, and I trust Mayock ten times more than this blowhard. If he is so great, why was he canned as a GM multiple times and now has to bloviate on the NFL Network?
If Mike Mayock is so great, how come he hasn't been hired as NFL GM several times? Or once, even?

Both Cushing & Barwin are gambles IMHO.
All the picks in this draft were gambles on some level. This was in my estimation, and those of many others, a very weak draft. There were no safe picks. I thought the Jets spending nearly their entire draft on Mark Sanchez was insane. Like Barwin, Sanchez had one successful season. Barwin was taken in the mid 2nd. Sanchez was taken at #5. Who was a bigger gamble?

Cushing is probably one of the safer picks in this draft and one of the safer picks Kubiak and Smith have made. He has the metrics and the experience. But in a normal draft, a linebacker with Cushing's numbers and resume could be found in the early 2nd round. This year, he's scooped up in the mid-1st. More a function of the caliber of draft than any gamble on the Texans part.

As far as jobs being in jeopardy, only the Sunshine Club could think that Kubiak and Smith could survive another non-winning season. But if that occurs, the 2009 draft can't take the entire blame. Players from Kuniak and Smith's prior drafts will have to underachieve for the Texans mediocrity to continue. Okoye, Brown, Jones...there would likely be a lot of picks of bygone drafts fail. And I would suggest it is the improvement of players from the previous drafts that will have much more impact on the immediate success of this franchise than the latest group will.

TEXANRED
05-01-2009, 09:32 PM
Sheesh. I had to look those two words up, just to understand you. Come on Arlington, bring it down from the top shelf where we can reach it. j/k

From wikipedia (for those of you in Rio Linda):

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.


A fallacy is an argument that is not logically sound. The truth of the conclusions of an argument does not determine whether the argument is a fallacy - it is the argument which is fallacious.

Fallacies can be categorized in a number of ways, including:

Formal (or Logical) fallacies versus Informal fallacies
A formal fallacy relies on an incorrect logical step. An informal fallacy does not rely on incorrect logical deduction.
Verbal fallacies
Verbal fallacies use some property of language to mislead. For example, ambiguity or verbosity.
Fallacies are also often concerned with causality, which is not strictly addressed by logic. They may also involve implicit (or unstated) assumptions.

Fallacies often exploit emotional triggers in the listener or interlocutor. For example, an argument may appeal to patriotism or family or may exploit an intellectual weakness of the listener. Fallacious arguments may also take advantage of social relationships between people. For example, citing support of important individuals to encourage listeners to agree with a conclusion.

Considered by themselves, fallacies can often seem obvious. However, arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure the logical argument - deliberately or not - making observing fallacies difficult. Also, the component parts of the fallacy may be spread over a large period of time

And here I always thought a Fallacy was a male memeber.

Specnatz
05-01-2009, 09:39 PM
If Mike Mayock is so great, how come he hasn't been hired as NFL GM several times? Or once, even?



But Casserly has been a failed GM on more than one team does that make him better at personnel evaluations?

Silver Oak
05-01-2009, 09:46 PM
As far as jobs being in jeopardy, only the Sunshine Club could think that Kubiak and Smith could survive another non-winning season. But if that occurs, the 2009 draft can't take the entire blame. Players from Kuniak and Smith's prior drafts will have to underachieve for the Texans mediocrity to continue. Okoye, Brown, Jones...there would likely be a lot of picks of bygone drafts fail. And I would suggest it is the improvement of players from the previous drafts that will have much more impact on the immediate success of this franchise than the latest group will.

short of a 2-14 season, I don't see any changes to the FO or HC. Mr. McNair is committed to Rick Smith for the next 3-5 years...IMO, and Smith seems to like the job Kubiak is doing, so there might be some disappointed fans this next offseason if we don't get to the playoffs.

Lucky
05-01-2009, 09:46 PM
But Casserly has been a failed GM on more than one team does that make him better at personnel evaluations?
No. But his failures by themselves do not automatically make him worse than someone who has never had the responsibility of draft, like Mike Mayock. Or you. Or me. Or Porky.

Lucky
05-01-2009, 09:56 PM
short of a 2-14 season, I don't see any changes to the FO or HC.
I think you qualify for a full membership.

And I also believe you have the Kubiak/Smith relationship completely backwards. Smith works at Kubiak's bidding. Like Casserly & Capers, these two are tied at the hip and will sink or swim with each other.

One thing we both agree on is that there will be some disappointed fans if the Texans don't make the playoffs. There will be a disappointed owner, as well.

ObsiWan
05-01-2009, 10:25 PM
I think you qualify for a full membership.

And I also believe you have the Kubiak/Smith relationship completely backwards. Smith works at Kubiak's bidding. Like Casserly & Capers, these two are tied at the hip and will sink or swim with each other.

One thing we both agree on is that there will be some disappointed fans if the Texans don't make the playoffs. There will be a disappointed owner, as well.

That will be very true. But if we finish in second place in the division - with a winning record - yet still miss the playoffs (a la N.E. last year) Smithiak stays.

Sign me up for the "Sunshine Club" but, for '09, I don't think its "Playoffs or Bust", I think its "Winning Record or Bust".

Besides, who ya gonna bring in to replace them? And why would you upset the applecart when we're closer than we've ever been??

Now if we take giant steps backward, a la '05, then the curtain comes down on the Smithiak act. And rightfully so.

TEXANRED
05-01-2009, 10:35 PM
That will be very true. But if we finish in second place in the division - with a winning record - yet still miss the playoffs (a la N.E. last year) Smithiak stays.

Sign me up for the "Sunshine Club" but, for '09, I don't think its "Playoffs or Bust", I think its "Winning Record or Bust".

Besides, who ya gonna bring in to replace them? And why would you upset the applecart when we're closer than we've ever been??

Now if we take giant steps backward, a la '05, then the curtain comes down on the Smithiak act. And rightfully so.

Cowher Power Baby!!!!!!!!!!!

ObsiWan
05-01-2009, 11:43 PM
Cowher Power Baby!!!!!!!!!!!

Somehow I knew that would be the response.
I just don't get the attraction to him.
He seems over-rated to me.
throw out the 4-0 Super Bowl year (when I think it was more the team was trying to get an aging Bettis to finish his career on a high note than Cowher's coaching) and he's 8-9 in the post-season. The year after the Super Bowl win, he didn't even make the playoffs.
I don't get it.

awtysst
05-02-2009, 12:54 AM
Mike Mayock pimped our draft on the same network, and I trust Mayock ten times more than this blowhard. If he is so great, why was he canned as a GM multiple times and now has to bloviate on the NFL Network?

He was a former Radiers Personal guy. A Former RAIDERS Personal guy. He has no ability whatsoever to dioscern talent.

That said, who knows what will happen. i prefer to trust Gosselin, Mayock, and Awtysst.

Specnatz
05-02-2009, 01:29 AM
He was a former Radiers Personal guy. A Former RAIDERS Personal guy. He has no ability whatsoever to dioscern talent.

That said, who knows what will happen. i prefer to trust Gosselin, Mayock, and Awtysst.

You mean Al let someone else make the decisions? No one knows how good or how bad he is or was because of Al being a complete ...... well you know.

Silver Oak
05-02-2009, 08:31 AM
I think you qualify for a full membership.

And I also believe you have the Kubiak/Smith relationship completely backwards. Smith works at Kubiak's bidding. Like Casserly & Capers, these two are tied at the hip and will sink or swim with each other.

One thing we both agree on is that there will be some disappointed fans if the Texans don't make the playoffs. There will be a disappointed owner, as well.

if I qualify for the Sunshine membership, I'd like to offer you one to the Gloom and Doom club...free of charge.

there's been nothing but positive progress since Smith and Kubiak arrived here, and I find it hard to believe fans and the owner would call for firings if the team doesn't make it to the playoffs.

one thing we don't need is a change in systems in a knee jerk reaction.

sakebomb
05-02-2009, 09:00 AM
He would pick ours as not exciting? Did he even see the Steelers draft?

Oh wait, I just looked at his analysis of the Steelers draft and he wrote this. "PITTSBURGH: Mike Tomlin is my favorite coach, for sure. We had him on the Network, and he had me pumped up to play. What was more impressive than his motivational talks were his understanding of player development and what his coaching staff must do to make these players help the Steelers. No matter who the Steelers picked, they had a great draft because Tomlin will demand it from the players."

What a bias dufus.



Cool. I will send Tomlin a highlight package of me playing fantasy football, drinking beers at the bar, and watching my kids play baseball. According to this a$$ clown I will be an NFL star if all I do is listen to Tomlin. Sweet. :whip:

CloakNNNdagger
05-02-2009, 09:57 AM
As people are being divided into the Sunshine Club vs. the Gloom and Doom Club, with the underlying air of the unknown, it’s important to stop and think. When we start speaking of firing personel, or fear of firing personel because of changing the system, there is one very important principle to keep in mind..............THE PETER PRINCIPLE.........the theory that employees within an organization will advance to their highest level of competence and then be promoted to and remain at a level at which they are incompetent. Through our relatively short history, we have certainly seen this time and time again. Capers, Casserly, Smith, Carr and many other players (in transition from college to NFL, or from backup to starter, or post injury potential) just to name a few examples. It's going to happen in any organization. The trick is to recognize when the ineffective promotion has occurred..........or better yet and more difficult, before it occurs. The Texans have shown a tendency to hope and pray for "performance" or improvement in "performance" at different levels, that by the Peter Principle would have predicted the outcome far sooner than recognized or acted upon. Certainly, no one is advocating a potential "musical chairs" instability. Just don’t wear the blinders to avoid recognizing when established "stability" translates into repeated failure.

ObsiWan
05-02-2009, 11:42 AM
As people are being divided into the Sunshine Club vs. the Gloom and Doom Club, with the underlying air of the unknown, it’s important to stop and think. When we start speaking of firing personel, or fear of firing personel because of changing the system, there is one very important principle to keep in mind..............THE PETER PRINCIPLE.........the theory that employees within an organization will advance to their highest level of competence and then be promoted to and remain at a level at which they are incompetent. Through our relatively short history, we have certainly seen this time and time again. Capers, Casserly, Smith, Carr and many other players (in transition from college to NFL, or from backup to starter, or post injury potential) just to name a few examples. It's going to happen in any organization. The trick is to recognize when the ineffective promotion has occurred..........or better yet and more difficult, before it occurs. The Texans have shown a tendency to hope and pray for "performance" or improvement in "performance" at different levels, that by the Peter Principle would have predicted the outcome far sooner than recognized or acted upon. Certainly, no one is advocating a potential "musical chairs" instability. Just don’t wear the blinders to avoid recognizing when established "stability" translates into repeated failure.

unless the person responsible for making said recognition and taking the appropriate action has reached HIS Peter Principle. Given the time it took to purge Capers, Carr, & Co. one can't help but wonder....
:)

having said that, I still think it's too soon to pull the trigger on Smithiak, even if we don't make the playoffs.
We've come quite a ways. Maybe not as quickly as other teams. Although I maintain that any team you name that did a "miraculous short-term turnaround" either didn't face the competition we did (see the Falcons) in their division/schedule or already had a sound set of core players and had an off year from which they simply rebounded with a couple of new pieces (see the Ravens) or some combination of both scenarios (see Miami).

I just do not think its fair to let Smithiak build this team, as Dungy did in Tampa, then turn it over to some other yahoo and let him reap the benefits.

awtysst
05-02-2009, 12:19 PM
You mean Al let someone else make the decisions? No one knows how good or how bad he is or was because of Al being a complete ...... well you know.

No no. He didn't make decisions. He simply looked at talent and presented his recommendations to the exaltwd one. Big Al ALWAYS has the final word.

steelbtexan
05-02-2009, 01:28 PM
GP all I can say is WOW

The LB corps of Cushing, Ryans and Adibi will be the best set of LB's the Texans have ever had.

Barwin is going to be a pleasant suprise (atleast 7 sacks). Mario is going to benefit from Cushing & Barwin the most. I believe Mario will have 18 sacks this year.

The best pick in this years draft is Caldwell. He and Hill are going to improve an all ready effective running game. I'm glad they took Caldwell and Hill istead of reaching for a RB.

If you cant find a stud RB the best way to improve the running game is to beef up the OL. The Caldwell and Hill selections help accomplish this.

I cant wait for the season to start.

disaacks3
05-02-2009, 02:09 PM
GP all I can say is WOW

The LB corps of Cushing, Ryans and Adibi will be the best set of LB's the Texans have ever had.

Barwin is going to be a pleasant suprise (atleast 7 sacks). Mario is going to benefit from Cushing & Barwin the most. I believe Mario will have 18 sacks this year.

The best pick in this years draft is Caldwell. He and Hill are going to improve an all ready effective running game. I'm glad they took Caldwell and Hill istead of reaching for a RB.

If you cant find a stud RB the best way to improve the running game is to beef up the OL. The Caldwell and Hill selections help accomplish this.

I cant wait for the season to start. I hope you're right. I LOVE this Texans draft overall, but we did take some risks.

If Cushing goes down in TC or in an early season game with an injury (let's not even think about a positive steroids test) - we took a risk and rolled snake eyes. OTOH - I think if he stays healthy, the guy will be an absolute beast for us. If he, Ryans AND Adibi all stay healthy - those third and long conversions on reverses, sweeps, screens, etc. will quickly become a thing of the past.

Barwin - Spectacular athlete, but will his versatility at the collegiate level translate into him never quite finding a niche at the Professional one? Time will tell.

Caldwell - I just don't see a downside that we could have foreseen with this pick. You don't play 4 years at 'Bama (graduating in three) w/o having something seriously RIGHT. (see DeMeco Ryans)

Beyond Rd. three - it's ALL a crapshoot IMHO.

TimeKiller
05-02-2009, 02:16 PM
I think it would have to be a disaster of a year to see Kubiak and Smith especially go. Smith has made the team financially stable if nothing else. McNair will keep him around for sewing up the holes in his wallet. I really think Kubiak has done a good job making this team respectable and I don't think we should have our foot on his throat the first time a cloud goes by. Kubiak is a good coach and we're lucky to have him. That said, if the cloud that goes by is a 5 win season I'll be upset too.

edo783
05-02-2009, 03:18 PM
IMO, if there is a another 8-8 season, or heaven forbid a losing one, it will depend on how we got there. If there weren't some serious key injuries or something of the like, I could see POSSIBLY losing Kubes, but still kind of doubt it. Even a 9-7 season says he and Rick are safe for another year, as Bob would see it as positive progress. Now would they be on the hot seat the next year, yea I think so.

Lucky
05-02-2009, 05:42 PM
We've come quite a ways. Maybe not as quickly as other teams. Although I maintain that any team you name that did a "miraculous short-term turnaround" either didn't face the competition we did (see the Falcons) in their division/schedule or already had a sound set of core players and had an off year from which they simply rebounded with a couple of new pieces (see the Ravens) or some combination of both scenarios (see Miami).
Every team in the Falcon's division (NFC South) finished .500 or better. 11 of their 16 games were against teams .500 or better. And they finished 11-5 with a rookie QB and a rookie head coach. The "new pieces" the Ravens went into 2008 with were a rookie QB and a rookie head coach. Miami went from 1-15 to 11-5 with a rookie head coach and a QB picked up just prior to the start of the season. To minimize what these franchises accomplished in 2008 is incomprehensible. These teams overachieved. The Texans underachieved. I usually point to the coaching staff to explain why a team plays above or below its talent level.

I just do not think its fair to let Smithiak build this team, as Dungy did in Tampa, then turn it over to some other yahoo and let him reap the benefits.
Dungy took the Bucs to the playoffs in his 2nd year as head coach, and 4 of his last 5 years in Tampa. Kubiak is heading into season 4, without a single playoff game. To compare Kubiak's work to what Dungy achieved with the Bucs is laughable.

I don't think we should have our foot on his throat the first time a cloud goes by.We're talking about the possibility of 4 seasons without a playoff berth. 4 years is not sudden. Kubiak's already survived the cloud of an 0-4 and 3-7 start. How many clouds will he get from the Sunshine Club?

Even a 9-7 season says he and Rick are safe for another year, as Bob would see it as positive progress. Now would they be on the hot seat the next year, yea I think so.
Here's the problem with that scenario. Kubiak is in year 4 of his 5 year contract. McNair won't send Kubiak out in 2010 with a lame duck contract. So does McNair extend Kubiak without the Texans reaching the playoffs? I don't think so. That's why 2009 is a make or break year.

if I qualify for the Sunshine membership, I'd like to offer you one to the Gloom and Doom club...free of charge.
I'm not gloomy about the 2009 season, in the least. I don't see a reason why the Texans can't make a run at their 1st AFC South title, with a wild card spot as a consolation prize. I don't see any excuses for that not happening. The Texans have the triplets on offense. A Pro Bowl TE. A solid o-line (finally). The best all around DE in the NFL. A star MLB. Tons of young defensive talent. And a new defensive coordinator. I expect an outstanding season.

But if that glorious season doesn't transpire, then yes, I expect changes at the top. The very top. And there's nothing kneejerk about axing a head coach who doesn't take his team to the playoffs in 4 seasons. In fact, there are only 3 coaches over the past 20 years who have kept their job after beginning their tenure with 4 non-playoff seasons. Jeff Fisher, Norv Turner, and David Shula. Fisher took Tennessee to the Super Bowl in year 5. Turner didn't get the Skins into the playoffs until year 6, and was fired year 7 mid-season. Shula got the boot during his 5th year.

But, there's no reason to talk about firing Kubiak before we find out what the Texans will become in 2009. Just as there's no reason to talk about keeping him on until he's proven that he can win. All I want is a winning team. If it is with Gary Kubiak at the helm, great. If not, McNair has to find a coach that can get this team over the hump.

CloakNNNdagger
05-02-2009, 06:41 PM
I'm not gloomy about the 2009 season, in the least. I don't see a reason why the Texans can't make a run at their 1st AFC South title, with a wild card spot as a consolation prize. I don't see any excuses for that not happening. The Texans have the triplets on offense. A Pro Bowl TE. A solid o-line (finally). The best all around DE in the NFL. A star MLB. Tons of young defensive talent. And a new defensive coordinator. I expect an outstanding season.

But if that glorious season doesn't transpire, then yes, I expect changes at the top. The very top. And there's nothing kneejerk about axing a head coach who doesn't take his team to the playoffs in 4 seasons. In fact, there are only 3 coaches over the past 20 years who have kept their job after beginning their tenure with 4 non-playoff seasons. Jeff Fisher, Norv Turner, and David Shula. Fisher took Tennessee to the Super Bowl in year 5. Turner didn't get the Skins into the playoffs until year 6, and was fired year 7 mid-season. Shula got the boot during his 5th year.

But, there's no reason to talk about firing Kubiak before we find out what the Texans will become in 2009. Just as there's no reason to talk about keeping him on until he's proven that he can win. All I want is a winning team. If it is with Gary Kubiak at the helm, great. If not, McNair has to find a coach that can get this team over the hump.


Must spread the rep!

I, too, have very high hopes for 2009. Although, if after 4 more years, this team is still unable to see its first playoff appearance................well, that's why I posted the Peter Principle piece above.

Corollary to the Peter Principle: "There is no stigma attached to recognizing a bad decision in time to install a better one." --Laurence J. Peter

GP
05-02-2009, 07:56 PM
GP all I can say is WOW

The LB corps of Cushing, Ryans and Adibi will be the best set of LB's the Texans have ever had.

Barwin is going to be a pleasant suprise (atleast 7 sacks). Mario is going to benefit from Cushing & Barwin the most. I believe Mario will have 18 sacks this year.

The best pick in this years draft is Caldwell. He and Hill are going to improve an all ready effective running game. I'm glad they took Caldwell and Hill istead of reaching for a RB.

If you cant find a stud RB the best way to improve the running game is to beef up the OL. The Caldwell and Hill selections help accomplish this.

I cant wait for the season to start.

Just curious: What did I say, to make you say "GP all I can say is wow..."? I haven't been on the boards since Friday, so I am a bit clueless as to what all has been going on since I posted yesterday.

Here's my thoughts on the recent posts in this thread:

If you guys look back at my posts during the middle of the regular season, I was pretty fired up about the crappy situation of our team. I was rep'ing Buffi and SecondHoneymoon on their posts regarding Kubiak. I even went so far as to say that if Kubiak somehow pulled an 8-8 season out of his ass, he would earn Houdini status...because he would have officially have escaped from handcuffs, shackles, and a straightjacket while being submerged in a wardrobe chest under water.

And it happened.

Look, I had stuck with David Carr until the half-way point of his last season here--And then it was obvious to even a small child that Kubiak would be better off sending the guy packing at the end of the season. At that point, I decided that the next guy at the controls better be a football god. So when Schaub hobbled through the '07 season, and was a little rusty in the first part of the '08 season, I was firmly entrenched with the idea of firing everybody but Rick Smith at the end of the year if we didn't have a miracle run to somehow salvage some dignity out of the deal.

I had gone from thinking Kubiak would be THE coach, to thinking the guy's goose was cooked, and now I've gone back to the idea that there is something "there" that is going to produce long-term stability.

Kubiak can't get a permanent pass for turning a 2-14 team around, hoisting it out of the depths of despair and into somewhat respectable status. But I also don't think that this is a make-or-break year, either. Had we spiraled out of control last season, failing to close out the year with that win streak, then I would say that he's on the hot seat THIS season. But that Green Bay game had a distinctly Broncos & Elway'ish feeling to it, with Kubiak in the role of Dan Reeves...getting the job done with a gritty, clutch QB effort by Schaub.

I'm not ready to throw it all away yet just because we might not make the playoffs. The anxiety of wondering if the new Texans coach (after Capers was fired) was going to end up just duplicating and compounding the Capers/Casserly errors was enough for me. Kubiak and Smith are doing a good job of keeping this team stable, and I know that stable is not enough. But I don't think the owner looks at it like we do. He struggled to even fire Capers in the first place, refusing to gut the coaching the staff during the 2-14 season when any sane owner would have done just that.

I don't "love" Kubiak. He pisses me off with his game management, but there was a report at the end of the season that disclosed Kubiak had a revelation that he needs to be a head coach and not the offensive coordinator (he admitted that his head coaching efforts were hindered by his slavish attitude to the o-coord role he had been so good at). I attribute THAT epiphany by Kubiak as one of the things that will make this team better in '09.

Whoever said that this was the year of no excuses...is correct. But whoever said "it's HOW we get losses, if we have a bad season" is also correct. I think that both of those statements can be held in tension with one another.

I don't buy the idea that McNair would not allow Kubiak to go into a final season without an extension. There's no precedence for that line of reasoning. He allowed Capers to fight through to the bitter end. He allowed Carr to fight through to the bitter end, even extending the guy $8 mill just to see if he could be salvaged. Now he was a head coach how has also adopted this same logic: Giving Domanick Davis to the last minute to decide if he could make it back to the field and play again, allowing Richard Smith to fight to the bitter end despite what should have easily been a mid-season firing, and continuing to build the defense through the draft regardless of what gems on offense he could have picked up in the first round the past several drafts he's managed.

Just my .02

Wolf
05-02-2009, 08:11 PM
guess I will be part of the sunshine club this offseason(see avatar)

feel free to join, water is nice

thunderkyss
05-02-2009, 09:02 PM
Dungy took the Bucs to the playoffs in his 2nd year as head coach, and 4 of his last 5 years in Tampa. Kubiak is heading into season 4, without a single playoff game. To compare Kubiak's work to what Dungy achieved with the Bucs is laughable.

We're talking about the possibility of 4 seasons without a playoff berth. 4 years is not sudden. Kubiak's already survived the cloud of an 0-4 and 3-7 start. How many clouds will he get from the Sunshine Club?



I'm not gloomy about the 2009 season, in the least. I don't see a reason why the Texans can't make a run at their 1st AFC South title, with a wild card spot as a consolation prize.

So even if we go 10-6 and miss the play-offs, Kubiak should be fired?

Predicting play-off appearances is really a tough thing to do. We have no idea how this is going to shake out. We can go 15-1, and not win our division, or 14-2, and theoretically still miss the play-offs. That's all I'm saying.

Success........ can't mean Play-offs or bust.

Other than that, a very good post.

mussop
05-03-2009, 12:46 AM
I tend to side with Lucky and Thunderkiss here. Im ok with the draft and think it could workout. But there are questions about Barwin that worry me. No one knows if he will answer those questions or not. The guy is more of a gamble than you would like for our second round pick. I meen really is he that much better of a prospect (for the price) than Sidbury who went in the 4th? There measurables were pretty close. Im hoping like everyone else here that he blows up and becomes the next Freeney but Im not going to get upset just becasue someone says theres a chance he wont work out

TimeKiller
05-03-2009, 11:36 AM
We're talking about the possibility of 4 seasons without a playoff berth. 4 years is not sudden. Kubiak's already survived the cloud of an 0-4 and 3-7 start. How many clouds will he get from the Sunshine Club?

4 seasons of steady improvement too. I guess you're lumping me in as a "Sunshine Club" member because I didn't jump on your bandwagon of complaining about something just to complain about something club. Whatever. I guess I remember how topping out at 7 wins felt a little better than you do. I know, 8 isn't much but saying that team had a trial or a tribulation last year would be pretty accurate. If you want to go uber-literal and say that Ike was the cloud for Kubiak that's fine with me but I'm not going to question Kubiak's job when he's done nothing to lose it, ESPECIALLY when his next season is barely underway. I'll make it clear though, I expect a 10 win season and if that includes a playoff berth, gravy. No, we don't have Captain-Instant-Team (Parcells) running our show but we've got somebody who has competently built the team into something worth watching.

GP
05-03-2009, 12:38 PM
4 seasons of steady improvement too. I guess you're lumping me in as a "Sunshine Club" member because I didn't jump on your bandwagon of complaining about something just to complain about something club. Whatever. I guess I remember how topping out at 7 wins felt a little better than you do. I know, 8 isn't much but saying that team had a trial or a tribulation last year would be pretty accurate. If you want to go uber-literal and say that Ike was the cloud for Kubiak that's fine with me but I'm not going to question Kubiak's job when he's done nothing to lose it, ESPECIALLY when his next season is barely underway. I'll make it clear though, I expect a 10 win season and if that includes a playoff berth, gravy. No, we don't have Captain-Instant-Team (Parcells) running our show but we've got somebody who has competently built the team into something worth watching.

Rep your way. Count me in on the sunshine club.

I think some of the real issues going on here, is from a sense of anxiety about how we will do when it's time to kick the ball for the regular season opener.

Nobody wants to get pumped up (yet) only to have it crashing down upon us. IMO, we have some posters who are intentionally keeping their hopes held down...out of self-preservation. And that's not a bad thing, btw. If it helps someone cope with a possible bad season, so be it. I tend to drift that way myself. It's not pessimism, per say, but rather a clinging to realism while others are shooting for the stars with their hopes and dreams for how it will all turn out.

This hobby can become a bit routine: Sept. finds us all thinking we can start strong and progress, but then we get bogged down with stupid losses and subpar play and coaching, only to finish with a few wins, whicih takes to the of-season where we beg for someone to be fired, then the build-up to the draft, then the draft, then mini-camps and TC and preseason, and then here we go...all over again in September.

I have no problem with the idea of "intentional injections of realism," but taking it to its next theoritical step of saying "we have to do x or y or z in order for Kubiak to remain" is a bit much, a bit premature, IMO.

In my mind, the guy has done a better job than most other coaches who have had to take over a 2-14 team that had severe problems on offense. I bet there are a handful of fans of other teams that wish they were in the same state-of-being as the Texans are right now.

Pantherstang84
05-03-2009, 01:39 PM
guess I will be part of the sunshine club this offseason(see avatar)

feel free to join, water is nice

Mind if I copy your avatar? We can make it the official avatar of the Sunshine Club.

Honoring Earl 34
05-03-2009, 02:07 PM
Mind if I copy your avatar? We can make it the official avatar of the Sunshine Club.

Here's y'all a theme song .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eONhto0x_nI&feature=related

Lucky
05-03-2009, 02:23 PM
We can go 15-1, and not win our division, or 14-2, and theoretically still miss the play-offs. That's all I'm saying.
I think you would have to prove the theory that a 14-2 team could possibly miss the playoffs. That would mean that 5 teams in the AFC would have to have a 14-2 or better regular season record. I know it has never happened. One 11-5 team has missed the playoffs since 1986. That this freak occurrence happened last season makes it fresh on everyone's mind.

What about going 10-6 and missing the playoffs? Well, it depends on how they arrive at 10-6. Look back at last season, and the Texans were eliminated from the playoffs after a week 10 dismantling at Reliant by Baltimore. What if the Texans had gone 7-0 the rest of the way? They didn't, but what if? Would that have made 2008 a good season? If they win the rest of their games after elimination in 2009, will that be enough to warrant a contract extension to Kubiak?

Everyone talks about how tough a schedule the Texans had in 2008. They played 7 games versus teams that drafted in the top 10 last weekend. A 5-2 record when facing the gimmes. The Texans went 2-6 versus playoff teams in 2008. Just as they did in 2007. After going 1-6 against playoff teams in '06. That's not steady improvement. That's stuck in the same mediocre muck.

There's only one measuring stick for improvement in 2009. Beat the good teams. And if you win your share of games against the good teams, and make the gimmes, you're in the playoffs 99% of the time. If that happens, Kubiak gets the contract extension and is the Texans head coach for the forseeable future. Let's talk about the 1% possibility if/when it ever happens.

threetoedpete
05-03-2009, 02:23 PM
Lombardi is a former Raider personnel guy. Read with extreme skepticism.

Further, this is the guy that banged the speed Wr over Crabtree. Visit the Raider's boards and see how that one is going over. Look, our guys have had two extraordinarily good draft classes. My pick, I pick Mathews. But they weren't going to move Mario nor Demeco Ryan. They said that over and over again. What we don't know yet is if or when Coner Barwin will be able to stand up. What is not in question now, is if the Texans get one or two LBs banged up they can cover the loss with two very talented players. It's very rare that you can put two talented guys on a squad with this much upside. These dynamic numbers. Mathews was such a reach.....Green Bay moved back up into the first round and took him. When we bring five now....we should be able to get there. And in seven years, we have never been able to say that with confidence before.

Thorn
05-03-2009, 02:27 PM
4 seasons of steady improvement too. I guess you're lumping me in as a "Sunshine Club" member because I didn't jump on your bandwagon of complaining about something just to complain about something club. Whatever. I guess I remember how topping out at 7 wins felt a little better than you do. I know, 8 isn't much but saying that team had a trial or a tribulation last year would be pretty accurate. If you want to go uber-literal and say that Ike was the cloud for Kubiak that's fine with me but I'm not going to question Kubiak's job when he's done nothing to lose it, ESPECIALLY when his next season is barely underway. I'll make it clear though, I expect a 10 win season and if that includes a playoff berth, gravy. No, we don't have Captain-Instant-Team (Parcells) running our show but we've got somebody who has competently built the team into something worth watching.


We've got a football team, which we didn't have for a while. We have a owner that's 1000 times better than the one that left town. We are neither Detroit or Oakland. We've got some exiciting players on the team, including a few all pros, and just had a pretty decent draft. And we are still a young team.

So, I think I'll join the Sunshine Club also. :)

Lucky
05-03-2009, 02:40 PM
So, I think I'll join the Sunshine Club also. :)
This is a good avatar for you guys.

http://fc01.deviantart.com/images3/i/2004/109/c/4/Smiley_Sunshine_Club_ID.jpg

Someone with photoshop skills can work with this.

threetoedpete
05-03-2009, 02:45 PM
unless the person responsible for making said recognition and taking the appropriate action has reached HIS Peter Principle. Given the time it took to purge Capers, Carr, & Co. one can't help but wonder....
:)

having said that, I still think it's too soon to pull the trigger on Smithiak, even if we don't make the playoffs.
We've come quite a ways. Maybe not as quickly as other teams. Although I maintain that any team you name that did a "miraculous short-term turnaround" either didn't face the competition we did (see the Falcons) in their division/schedule or already had a sound set of core players and had an off year from which they simply rebounded with a couple of new pieces (see the Ravens) or some combination of both scenarios (see Miami).

I just do not think its fair to let Smithiak build this team, as Dungy did in Tampa, then turn it over to some other yahoo and let him reap the benefits.

Agreed. What is not in doubt.....we run the Denver WCO. And any new guy brought in will purge the offensive personnel.....including Andre Johnson (sell high) and bring in his style of guys in. Out side of key injuries, Okoye is the lynch pin in all of this. He makes any leap at all this season they will look like Geniuses. If he doesn't....they are all on a short rope. Outside of QB the DT spot is the hardest to draft high. And everyone gambles on them. Find a guy who is strong enough to collapse a pocket and hold the point under a double team block....but quick enough to beat a guard on the rush , that there is a rare bird. Most end up eating themselves out of the position and become one dimensional.

And when you post you want Bill Cowher...understand 80% of our current o-lineman do not fit and we're re building the o-line again.

Lucky
05-03-2009, 02:56 PM
The Sunshine Club's Ten Commandments



Thou shalt not use Coach Kubiak's name in vain.
Thou shalt not worship head coaches other than Coach Kubiak (even Bill Cowher).
Honor your father and mother. And Coach Kubiak.
Thou shalt not not bear false witness against Coach Kubiak.
Or tell the truth, if it happens to make Coach Kubiak look bad.
Thou shalt celebrate Texans first downs.
Thou shalt blame all Texans losses on the evil minions Sage Rosenfels and Richard Smith.
Thou shalt believe that going from 8-8 to 8-8 indicates improvement.
Thou shalt proclaim to the heavens, “The Texans have the #3 offense!”.
Thou shalt not covet the playoffs.

Fox
05-03-2009, 03:31 PM
The Sunshine Club's Ten Commandments



Thou shalt not use Coach Kubiak's name in vain.
Thou shalt not worship head coaches other than Coach Kubiak (even Bill Cowher).
Honor your father and mother. And Coach Kubiak.
Thou shalt not not bear false witness against Coach Kubiak.
Or tell the truth, if it happens to make Coach Kubiak look bad.
Thou shalt celebrate Texans first downs.
Thou shalt blame all Texans losses on the evil minions Sage Rosenfels and Richard Smith.
Thou shalt believe that going from 8-8 to 8-8 indicates improvement.
Thou shalt proclaim to the heavens, “The Texans have the #3 offense!”.
Thou shalt not covet the playoffs.


So it is written, and so shall it be. el oh el.

ObsiWan
05-03-2009, 04:26 PM
quote=Lucky;1176807] Beat the good teams. And if you win your share of games against the good teams, and make the gimmes, you're in the playoffs 99% of the time. If that happens, Kubiak gets the contract extension and is the Texans head coach for the forseeable future. Let's talk about the 1% possibility if/when it ever happens.

We're in violent agreement.
It just that we Sunshine Club members don't have our finger on the Kubiak Eject button like some folks seem to.

and you may be right about the lame duck scenario. Makes good sense for McNair to cut bait at the end of this year if he's not planning to extend Kubiak's contract. I just maintain that the Kubiak Go/Stay decision point is whether we have a winning season and not necessarily making the playoffs.

TimeKiller
05-03-2009, 04:47 PM
This Sunshine Club is crap. You want change? Like a different DC? You got it. A defense heavy draft. A F/A signing. Not over valuing players and making them play for contracts even when they are crowd favorites? Done. Done. Done. I don't care how big the steps are as long as they are steps in the right direction.

OH WAIT I know

how 'bout we take the guy who is most responsible for this team currently being a decent team for the first time and discuss his job when he has done only a 95% good job. Oh, don't forget to label the people that aren't as twisted in the pantaloons.

Ole Miss Texan
05-03-2009, 04:57 PM
The way I see it, this team is light years ahead of the one Kubiak inherited. The Texans finally have a good team, quality starters, quality depth and quality coaches. Now maybe that alone doesn't get Kubiak a contract extension but it's not going to get him fired. If I've learned anything these past 6 years its that even if we have a losing record this year, McNair isn't going to fire Kubiak or Rick Smith. He is going to let Kubiak finish up his 5 year contract. McNair is going to let him coach the next season to see if it was a one year fluke or if it's a bigger problem than 1 year. There's absolutely no reason to have a "sky is falling" mentality and make a knee jerk reaction over a bad season. If you really want to look at the short term picture of the team... I think it would be easy to argue keeping Kubiak would give the Texans the best shot of making the playoffs the following season, not getting frantic and trying to find a replacement for him.

Lucky
05-03-2009, 05:08 PM
You want change?
All I want is to win. Just win, baby.

GP
05-03-2009, 06:05 PM
The Sunshine Club's Ten Commandments



Thou shalt not use Coach Kubiak's name in vain.
Thou shalt not worship head coaches other than Coach Kubiak (even Bill Cowher).
Honor your father and mother. And Coach Kubiak.
Thou shalt not not bear false witness against Coach Kubiak.
Or tell the truth, if it happens to make Coach Kubiak look bad.
Thou shalt celebrate Texans first downs.
Thou shalt blame all Texans losses on the evil minions Sage Rosenfels and Richard Smith.
Thou shalt believe that going from 8-8 to 8-8 indicates improvement.
Thou shalt proclaim to the heavens, “The Texans have the #3 offense!”.
Thou shalt not covet the playoffs.


So while the sunshine crowd was away getting the 10 commandments, you were busy gathering people up and building a golden calf, weren't you Lucky? j/k

Thorn
05-03-2009, 07:02 PM
The Sunshine Club's Ten Commandments



Thou shalt not use Coach Kubiak's name in vain.
Thou shalt not worship head coaches other than Coach Kubiak (even Bill Cowher).
Honor your father and mother. And Coach Kubiak.
Thou shalt not not bear false witness against Coach Kubiak.
Or tell the truth, if it happens to make Coach Kubiak look bad.
Thou shalt celebrate Texans first downs.
Thou shalt blame all Texans losses on the evil minions Sage Rosenfels and Richard Smith.
Thou shalt believe that going from 8-8 to 8-8 indicates improvement.
Thou shalt proclaim to the heavens, “The Texans have the #3 offense!”.
Thou shalt not covet the playoffs.



In the beginning, Bud Adams created the Oilers. And the team was with form, and not void, and light was upon the face of Houston AFL fans as Adams brought them the first two ALF championships.

Then Adams said, let there be darkness upon the face of the franchise. And there was no more championships.

Then Adams said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the humid heat, and the Oilers moved into the Dome. Adams called the Dome heaven, NFL players called it playing on concrete.

And the Dome brought forth excitement with Pastorini, Burrough, White Shoes, Campbell, and Moon. But still no championship was upon the faces of the fans.

And Adams said, let there be a divide amongst the fans, Houston, and myself. And Adams set forth unreasonable demands which were met. And Adams said, let us further widen the divide and moved the Oilers to the land of Inbreds.

And darkness was once again upon the face of Houston fans. And in the sixth year of darkness, the Texans began.

I'll have more from my twisted biblical epic later, supper is calling. :)

Lucky
05-03-2009, 07:08 PM
So while the sunshine crowd was away getting the 10 commandments, you were busy gathering people up and building a golden calf, weren't you Lucky? j/k
Not into the golden calf thing. But, I'd love some silver pigskin.

http://www.ghavo.com/wp-content/uploads/lombardi-trophy.jpg

Second Honeymoon
05-03-2009, 07:29 PM
no need to pile on Lucky for being objective and not being content with mediocrity. the fact is that in the NFL, you gotta win or you will be replaced. kubiak has yet to win. the next time they play well in a big game will the be the first time. i dont think its out of the realm of possibility that Kubiak is fired if we take a step back this year. It's not like we have been making huge strides as a team anyway. we were 7-9 in kubes first year and 8-8 in the two following seasons. does that sort of performance demand some sort of loyalty or reverence? any rational person would think not.

plus lets all remember that its Kubiak's fault that Richard Smith even had his job the last two years. Most coaches would have canned Smith after his first year of horrible defensive schemes. Kubiak not only didn't do that but he also let him follow that bad year with two more before he was literally forced to fire the scrub. that isn't loyalty, its called stupidity.

NFL careers and rosters are such that you can't sit around and wait for a coach to catch lightning in a bottle. is 4 years not enough time to turn a team into at least a winning team? personally, it doesn't take 4 years to build a winner as long as the organization is committed to making the tough decisions and spending some money on personnel. It can be done in one season and happens every year.

The organization has to drop the Care Bear attitude and realize that you gotta pay money to win and sometimes you have to get rid of guys when they suck and not act like things are just going to magically change (see Carr and Richard Smith). That means sparing no expense on a head coach and sparing no expense in attracting top free agents to come to our team and help us win.

This past draft tells me all I need to know. Drafting projects, injury/drug risks, tweeners, and track stars is no way to improve your team in 2009. Oher, William Moore, and Caldwell would have been a great first 3 rounds....but nooooooo, we have to take the guy who takes steroids (fact: dude was busted in high school so its not just rumors Brian) and a guy that looks to be special teams player in the early 2nd Round when William Moore was there at a position of need and at a value spot. I like Connor but Moore would help us 'Moore' next year and most assurably is more of a 'sure thing'. Who knows, maybe this draft works out in the end but we need to start drafting people who can help us win today not 2 or 3 years from now.

Oher was easily the most talented guy left on the board at #15 and we could have really helped our OL position. Just because we spent a 1st Round pick on Brown doesn't mean the Tackle position is solidified. The guy was pretty average if you ask me but what do I know. I guess allowing a sack a game is good in some peoples books and means the position is locked up...and yes I am looking at you Rick Smith.

Lucky, I salute you. We all love our Texans but some of us don't live in a world of sunshine, lollipops and unicorns. Some of us live in reality where coaches are paid to win and fired for losing. I am sick of us only winning games once we are eliminated from the playoffs and against the Miami's and Oakland's of the world. Can we please beat someone with something to play for? Can we please win when we have something to play for? If not, Kubiak should be fired. He just may not have enough friends who are quality defensive coaching talent. Just to get a coach outside of Kubiak's circle of friends we had to pay the highest salary in the league for a defensive line coach. Ranting now, but Lucky you rock.

Hopefully the Texans can catch lightning in a bottle and start playing with some more fire and emotion and stop flatlining so damn much.

GP
05-03-2009, 07:38 PM
Not into the golden calf thing. But, I'd love some silver pigskin.

http://www.ghavo.com/wp-content/uploads/lombardi-trophy.jpg

LOL. Niiiice one.

HJam72
05-03-2009, 08:18 PM
The Sunshine Club's Ten Commandments



Thou shalt not use Coach Kubiak's name in vain.
Thou shalt not worship head coaches other than Coach Kubiak (even Bill Cowher).
Honor your father and mother. And Coach Kubiak.
Thou shalt not not bear false witness against Coach Kubiak.
Or tell the truth, if it happens to make Coach Kubiak look bad.
Thou shalt celebrate Texans first downs.
Thou shalt blame all Texans losses on the evil minions Sage Rosenfels and Richard Smith.
Thou shalt believe that going from 8-8 to 8-8 indicates improvement.
Thou shalt proclaim to the heavens, “The Texans have the #3 offense!”.
Thou shalt not covet the playoffs.



Kubiash, darn it, that's good stuff!

Nah, it ain't working for me. :thinking:

swtbound07
05-03-2009, 09:18 PM
There is a decent chance this guy is right. I'm less than optimistic and thrilled also. Count me as optimistic, as all fans are, but extremely skeptical of the liquid running down my back that Kubiak and company are informing me is rain.

Wolf
05-03-2009, 10:35 PM
My name is wolf and I am a offseason sunshine club member

I like to be positive to see how the team approves in the offseason. All I can go on is scouting reports. I like to be upbeat until I get to actually see how the coaches coach these new people. On the field is the only way know. Now come august and if we are sitting at 1-3 again and playing crappy defense still.. I will be yelling at the TV and I HATE this word but the GD word has come out a few times during a game.

As far as the 10 commandments of the Sunshine Club .. I don't buy into it them.

Kubiac has ticked me off with some of his challenges when somehow everybody knows BUT him (or whoever tells him to throw the red flag out) on if the play has any potential to be overturned. Sometimes I think he throws it out there because he thinks it is basketball and a technical foul sometimes livens up the team .. Well it doesn't.. and you burned a timeout that could have been saved.


I celebrate some of the first downs.. but dammit.. I want some red zone TD's!

one of my game day smilies
http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/56642/2/istockphoto_56642_smiley_12.jpg


Panther, you can use the avatar for the offseason LOL
(I can't find where I got it from)

TimeKiller
05-04-2009, 09:14 AM
All I want is to win. Just win, baby.

shenanigans!!!

You want the Texans to win? And since his first day who has done nothing but improve this team in EVERY sense, including win column?

Texans_Chick
05-04-2009, 10:41 AM
Seems to me that whether the two top draft picks perform right away is less of an issue to the security of Kubiak compared to his choice to get Frank Bush running his defense. It's a nice draft soundbite but misses the mark.

Capers didn't get canned because Babin and Buchanon and whatever bad personnel move were poor performers for the team. He got canned because the team was a rancid pile of goo on both sides of the ball. The coaching was awful.

Every team hits and misses with draft picks. McNair knows that. It is not realistic to think that you will have a draft like 2006 every year.

So, basically, I think Lombardi's analysis hits the wrong target. Kubiak needs a lot of players to perform well on defense. They need to improve in just about every important defensive metric. The defensive coaching needs to be of the sort that does not stink of rancid good.

Looking at the choices the Texans made, they were not unreasonable and they were good value for the place they were chosen. They were not stupid choices on their face. Now whether they work out has a lot to do with how fast they progress, whether the new defensive scheme is worth anything, and whether they have good fortune not to get an injury that sets them back.