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Texan_Bill
05-06-2009, 11:27 AM
I'm at the point where I don't really care what happens and would really like to not see this thread everyday...

If they sign him...hooray...If they don't....hooray...

whatever....

/END Thread

BigBull17
05-06-2009, 11:28 AM
I'm at the point where I don't really care what happens and would really like to not see this thread everyday...

If they sign him...hooray...If they don't....hooray...

whatever....

Me too.

The Pencil Neck
05-06-2009, 12:00 PM
Me too.


Add me to the apathy list.

Runner
05-06-2009, 12:07 PM
And the pendulum starts to swing back toward reasonableness.

TheRealJoker
05-06-2009, 12:12 PM
I'm not very concerned about the Dunta situation, either he signs the FA tender or he sits. Judging by his performance last season coming off injury Fred Bennett or Antwan Molden wont be a huge dropoff if at all.

Dunta can prove us all however if he just shuts up and proves that he's 100% post injury. Maybe then he'll become the # 1 CB that we've always wanted him to be now that it seems we'll have someone other than Mario rushing the passer to give the CBs less time to cover?

Double Barrel
05-06-2009, 12:24 PM
And the pendulum starts to swing back toward reasonableness.

Well that's no fun! We've got several months to go before football season. Getting all reasonable on us just makes the time...go...slower. :shades:

Goldensilence
05-06-2009, 12:36 PM
I'm not very concerned about the Dunta situation, either he signs the FA tender or he sits. Judging by his performance last season coming off injury Fred Bennett or Antwan Molden wont be a huge dropoff if at all.

Dunta can prove us all however if he just shuts up and proves that he's 100% post injury. Maybe then he'll become the # 1 CB that we've always wanted him to be now that it seems we'll have someone other than Mario rushing the passer to give the CBs less time to cover?

I think that line summarizes my feelings on the matter. I think sign or sit I don't think the drop off is that huge unless he's fully recovered and dedicated to putting together a season like his rookie year.

I think Dunta is playing a pretty stupid game of chicken if you ask me. The team can't see him working in the offseason as it is, but as camps start to get closer he's risking making himself less NEEDED in the secondary which is why the team tagged him in the first place. There's a new secondary coach who from what I've gathered has a decent track record in Gibbs, you've got two young corners in Bennett and Molden. Bennett looked pretty good starting in his rookie year, but probably regressed under Hoke and Smith. Molden has the physical attributes, was a special teams ace last year, and was about to get playing time before his injury. As the offseason wears on what if one or both of those guys start to take off under Gibbs in this secondary? Dunta's leverage dimishes a lot. IMO it is in Dunta's best interest if he wants to stay with the team, to get the offer signed and in camp.

To me, if the offer was the ballpark of what was offered to Dunta and he balked. Says he wants out and I'm cool with that. I can understand how playing under Capers and dealing with Dick's Smith's attempt at running a defense could disenfranchise a guy. By his language looks like he wants out. I say let him continue to hold out, see what we've got with Bennett and Molden. See what the June cuts look like and start fielding trade offers for him. Unless a team is desperate I doubt we'd see a first rounder but a second is a possibility I think.

CloakNNNdagger
05-06-2009, 12:42 PM
Every time I return to this thread, I get dehydrated.


http://studiocsk.com/data/vomit.jpg

Texan_Bill
05-06-2009, 12:57 PM
Every time I return to this thread, I get dehydrated.


http://studiocsk.com/data/vomit.jpg

lol: Had to rep. you for that.

RTP2110
05-06-2009, 04:58 PM
I think Dunta is playing a pretty stupid game of chicken if you ask me. The team can't see him working in the offseason as it is, but as camps start to get closer he's risking making himself less NEEDED in the secondary which is why the team tagged him in the first place. There's a new secondary coach who from what I've gathered has a decent track record in Gibbs, you've got two young corners in Bennett and Molden. Bennett looked pretty good starting in his rookie year, but probably regressed under Hoke and Smith. Molden has the physical attributes, was a special teams ace last year, and was about to get playing time before his injury. As the offseason wears on what if one or both of those guys start to take off under Gibbs in this secondary? Dunta's leverage dimishes a lot. IMO it is in Dunta's best interest if he wants to stay with the team, to get the offer signed and in camp.


Good take. must spread rep

GP
05-06-2009, 05:29 PM
And the pendulum starts to swing back toward reasonableness.

Not so fast.

I still think Dunta is stupid.

So put that in your sensible and rational pipe and smoke it (j/k). :aggressive:

Carr Bombed
05-06-2009, 06:04 PM
Franchise him and give him his little promise that you won't franchise him next year and he'll have to play his ass off for the big payday so if he does somebody will give him his gigantic contract (and Houston will make the playoffs if he has a career year)....if he plays like crap, he won't be that hard to resign.

Either way, Houston needs to find his replacement (which I already think is on the roster...I actually like our depth at CB)

Franchise him, force him to have a career year, then tell him to not let the door hit his ass on the way out. Then take the money we saved and sign the players that are out there on the field (DeMeco and Owen).

BigBull17
05-06-2009, 06:48 PM
Franchise him and give him his little promise that you won't franchise him next year and he'll have to play his ass off for the big payday so if he does somebody will give him his gigantic contract (and Houston will make the playoffs if he has a career year)....if he plays like crap, he won't be that hard to resign.

Either way, Houston needs to find his replacement (which I already think is on the roster...I actually like our depth at CB)

Franchise him, force him to have a career year, then tell him to not let the door hit his ass on the way out. Then take the money we saved and sign the players that are out there on the field (DeMeco and Owen).

:goodpost:I do too. Must spread rep yada yada yada.

Blake
05-06-2009, 07:21 PM
:worthless:


http://assets.houstontexans.com/assets/player_news/2635.jpg

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/money_stack.jpg

steelbtexan
05-06-2009, 08:35 PM
Franchise him and give him his little promise that you won't franchise him next year and he'll have to play his ass off for the big payday so if he does somebody will give him his gigantic contract (and Houston will make the playoffs if he has a career year)....if he plays like crap, he won't be that hard to resign.

Either way, Houston needs to find his replacement (which I already think is on the roster...I actually like our depth at CB)

Franchise him, force him to have a career year, then tell him to not let the door hit his ass on the way out. Then take the money we saved and sign the players that are out there on the field (DeMeco and Owen).

Spot on


If Dunta has a big year franchise him again and trade him for draft picks.

If he has a year that jusfies top 5 CB money we should be able to get a pick or two for him if Dunta refuses to re-sign.

RTP2110
05-06-2009, 11:16 PM
Wait a minute. This all started when Dunta claimed he was lied to by Rick Smith about not using the franchise tag. Now he's saying he will come back when Rick Smith makes him a promise about not using the franchise tag???

Lucky
05-06-2009, 11:28 PM
Wait a minute. This all started when Dunta claimed he was lied to by Rick Smith about not using the franchise tag. Now he's saying he will come back when Rick Smith makes him a promise about not using the franchise tag???
No, Dunta said he would sign the Texans franchise offer sheet if it included a restriction that they could not use the tag on Robinson in 2010. He also suggested a contract where if he meet certain unnamed incentives, the franchise tag could not be exercised. Robinson isn't asking for a promise. He wants it in writing.

barrett
05-07-2009, 02:57 AM
I promise to be tired of this situation. I'll give you that in writing if you wish.

The Pencil Neck
05-07-2009, 10:12 AM
Wait a minute. This all started when Dunta claimed he was lied to by Rick Smith about not using the franchise tag. Now he's saying he will come back when Rick Smith makes him a promise about not using the franchise tag???

You can get that put into the contract. It's been done before.

Goldensilence
05-07-2009, 11:05 AM
You can get that put into the contract. It's been done before.

Isn't that what happened with Haynesworth? Made the pro-bowl this year and the Titans couldn't exercise the tag on him?

The Pencil Neck
05-07-2009, 12:18 PM
Isn't that what happened with Haynesworth? Made the pro-bowl this year and the Titans couldn't exercise the tag on him?

Exactly.

CloakNNNdagger
05-07-2009, 12:35 PM
The question that I would throw out: Of players who have been slapped with a franchise tag (which are usually caused because they don't want to be part of the team, or know through previous communications or dealings that their expected $$$$$ won't be met for longer term contract renewal), how many EVER later end up on that same team with a long-term renewed contract. Trying to think back, I would believe it's a small minority.

Lucky
05-16-2009, 06:28 PM
actually agreeing to the waiver is the short sighted move. we all know dunta isnt going to wait till week 10 to sign.
I agree that that's unlikely. What I disagree with is the notion of franchising Dunta a 2nd season. He would get an automatic 20% raise in 2010, making his salary almost $12 million. If the Texans wanted to pay Robinson $22 million guaranteed over just 2 seasons, I'm pretty sure they could have reached terms way before it got to this point. Franchising Robinson is not an option for 2010. So why not just give him the deal in writing, get the guy in camp, and get ready for a very important 2009 season?

Jackie Chiles
05-16-2009, 06:54 PM
I agree that that's unlikely. What I disagree with is the notion of franchising Dunta a 2nd season. He would get an automatic 20% raise in 2010, making his salary almost $12 million. If the Texans wanted to pay Robinson $22 million guaranteed over just 2 seasons, I'm pretty sure they could have reached terms way before it got to this point. Franchising Robinson is not an option for 2010. So why not just give him the deal in writing, get the guy in camp, and get ready for a very important 2009 season?

For one it sets a bad precedent. I would also hope that if this is Dunta's last season in Houston we would be able to trade him for a draft pick instead of letting him walk and once we agree not to re-tag him this possibility disappears. Now if DeMeco or Daniels still haven't gotten extensions I think they would probably get tagged before we re-tag Dunta making my second point irrelevant.

Lucky
05-16-2009, 09:36 PM
For one it sets a bad precedent. I would also hope that if this is Dunta's last season in Houston we would be able to trade him for a draft pick instead of letting him walk and once we agree not to re-tag him this possibility disappears.
Bad precedent? The bad precedent was using the tag in the first place. And with a new CBA in the future, I seriously doubt the franchise tag will exist in its current form, if at all.

As far as using a tagged Dunta as trade bait, that's not going to happen. Guys who are tagged and traded play QB or D-line. Who is going to give a high draft pick to the Texans and give Dunta a big contract? It didn't happen this season, why would it happen in 2010?

Polo
05-16-2009, 09:57 PM
I agree that that's unlikely. What I disagree with is the notion of franchising Dunta a 2nd season. He would get an automatic 20% raise in 2010, making his salary almost $12 million. If the Texans wanted to pay Robinson $22 million guaranteed over just 2 seasons, I'm pretty sure they could have reached terms way before it got to this point. Franchising Robinson is not an option for 2010. So why not just give him the deal in writing, get the guy in camp, and get ready for a very important 2009 season?

Maybe I missed something, but why isn't the franchinse tag an option?

Because of the CBA?


And....If it's assumed that the franchise tag won't exist or won't be the same in '10, why is Dunta asking to have it in writing that he won't be tagged again?

Lucky
05-16-2009, 10:12 PM
Maybe I missed something, but why isn't the franchinse tag an option?
$12 million will be the cost of placing a franchise tag on Dunta in 2010. If they were going to spend $22 million in guaranteed money on Robinson over two years, they could have re-signed him this offseason. It's not going to happen, so why not give Dunta the written assurance it won't happen? Show some good faith, and the Texans stand a better chance of re-signing Robinson to a long term deal. If they want to do that.

Who knows what's in store for the next CBA? But, neither the owners or the players are happy with the franchise tag in its current form. The ability to tag a player for more than one year is likely to go away. One alternative for the franchise tag would be to force teams to match the the average of the top 5 contracts in it's entirety. Including years of the contracts and guaranteed money.

CloakNNNdagger
05-16-2009, 10:57 PM
$12 million will be the cost of placing a franchise tag on Dunta in 2010. If they were going to spend $22 million in guaranteed money on Robinson over two years, they could have re-signed him this offseason. It's not going to happen, so why not give Dunta the written assurance it won't happen? Show some good faith, and the Texans stand a better chance of re-signing Robinson to a long term deal. If they want to do that.

Who knows what's in store for the next CBA? But, neither the owners or the players are happy with the franchise tag in its current form. The ability to tag a player for more than one year is likely to go away. One alternative for the franchise tag would be to force teams to match the the average of the top 5 contracts in it's entirety. Including years of the contracts and guaranteed money.

Boy, that would surely turn the tag into one heck of a short list.............and any holdouts would be a ***** of a dilemna.

kiwitexansfan
05-17-2009, 03:43 AM
Maybe I missed something, but why isn't the franchinse tag an option?

Because of the CBA?


And....If it's assumed that the franchise tag won't exist or won't be the same in '10, why is Dunta asking to have it in writing that he won't be tagged again?

The uncapped year gives teams even more tags than what currrently exist and if it goes past that there won't be a league because the owners will close the doors on the players and no one will get paid.

Jackie Chiles
05-17-2009, 05:21 AM
Bad precedent? The bad precedent was using the tag in the first place. And with a new CBA in the future, I seriously doubt the franchise tag will exist in its current form, if at all.

Heck yes it sets a bad precedent, franchise tag or not. We are going to have contract disputes in the future just like everyone else but as a franchise I would much rather see someone like DeMeco get what he wants because he is making the choice to still be a part of the team. Reward him so the next time someone thinks sitting out and throwing a fit will benefit them Rick Smith can point to these two guys and how DeMeco got a nice extension and Dunta did not help his cause by holding out.

As far as using a tagged Dunta as trade bait, that's not going to happen. Guys who are tagged and traded play QB or D-line. Who is going to give a high draft pick to the Texans and give Dunta a big contract? It didn't happen this season, why would it happen in 2010?

No, it didn't happen this season but I don't know if the Texans saw that as much of an option. By the time we tagged him the draft was approaching and I don't think they were prepared to part with him in Frank Bush's first year as DC. As well as that he cannot be traded until he actually signs the tender, probably the same reason that Peppers did not get moved. That fact is more of a stumbling block than assuming that only QBs and DLmen are traded under the franchise tag. Corners have value and people are willing to trade for them.

Jackie Chiles
05-17-2009, 05:33 AM
$12 million will be the cost of placing a franchise tag on Dunta in 2010. If they were going to spend $22 million in guaranteed money on Robinson over two years, they could have re-signed him this offseason. It's not going to happen, so why not give Dunta the written assurance it won't happen? Show some good faith, and the Texans stand a better chance of re-signing Robinson to a long term deal. If they want to do that.

Even at $12 million the franchise tag should be an option, it is very valuable to only have a 1 year obligation to a player. Long term contracts, although they are cheaper on a per year basis, can get messy if/when production declines or the team wants to bring in another shiny new FA. A one year contract is clean and easy to get rid of. Where is that money going to go if not to Dunta? If it is holding up other extensions or prevents us from going after a big FA then we can cut him loose but every year teams have space under the cap, sometimes significant space, and if the only detriment is to Mr. Mcnair's wallet I have no problem with it.

You say that we stand a better chance of re-signing him long term if we make this move but I guarantee the instant we say we won't tag him next season he and his agent set their mind to at least test the FA market. Look at the Titans last year, they thought they had a legit shot at signing Haynesworth before he hit FA when in reality they were completely wasting their time. Now they are left with their thumb up their butt looking to prove tampering because that is the only compensation they could get for losing the best DT in the league.

Look, we can go that route and likely lose Dunta without compensation next season and it is not going to be the end of the world. He is a good corner and a feisty competitor but we have been quietly stockpiling some depth there and we could further address the position in next year's draft. Who knows, maybe being involved in all the offseason activities and TC will help Dunta have a career year next season, helping us reach the playoffs, I just don't think that that benefit is enough to justify caving in to his demands (mostly because I think he will have a similar year regardless of his offseason activities).

Maddict5
05-17-2009, 09:23 AM
I agree that that's unlikely. What I disagree with is the notion of franchising Dunta a 2nd season. He would get an automatic 20% raise in 2010, making his salary almost $12 million. If the Texans wanted to pay Robinson $22 million guaranteed over just 2 seasons, I'm pretty sure they could have reached terms way before it got to this point. Franchising Robinson is not an option for 2010. So why not just give him the deal in writing, get the guy in camp, and get ready for a very important 2009 season?

i agree its not the most cap efficient.. however using the 2010 tag on him is an option if he wont otherwise come back.. its expensive but we can take the hit

thunderkyss
05-17-2009, 11:09 AM
So, can we summarize why Dunta didn't sign the Chris Gamble type deal? Was there not enough money? Was there not enough years? Was there some provision he needed to see?

I can't remember where we were.

Runner
05-17-2009, 12:58 PM
So, can we summarize why Dunta didn't sign the Chris Gamble type deal? Was there not enough money? Was there not enough years? Was there some provision he needed to see?

I can't remember where we were.

I think where we were was that the "Chris Gamble type deal" came from one source that hasn't been confirmed by anyone. That source reported few details, so most of the specific information about the deal is based on assumptions of what a Gamble deal (if it in fact existed) would be like.

So, Dunta didn't sign because:

A) He's greedy and stupid and over-values his worth.

B) The deal wasn't that great, if it existed.

kiwitexansfan
05-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Everytime I see this thread I just want to say

"BOO!!"

DiehardChris
05-17-2009, 07:23 PM
It bothers me that he "outlined his terms to return" right before draft day.

edo783
05-17-2009, 10:03 PM
I will go with "A" because if it wasn't close to what was reported both he and his agent would have been sniveling big time in the press about "We been so disrespected by them offering....". The fact that they haven't said squat speaks volumes IMO.

Texans_Chick
05-17-2009, 10:25 PM
It bothers me that he "outlined his terms to return" right before draft day.

That was the Chron headline.

There was never a quote from him saying that is what he needed to come back to the team.

If an article says that a "player outlines terms to return," that's a pretty big thing and I want to read the quote from the player. No offense to the reporting, but sometimes things get overblown.

In the interview with Randy McIlvoy and Brooke Bentley, he never said any of that stuff.

PapaL
05-25-2009, 04:03 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=4202976


Q: What's going on with Dunta Robinson and his contract issues with the Texans, and should I worry?

J. in Houston

A: Robinson has skipped voluntary work in Houston in the hopes of landing a long-term deal. He's coming off a major knee injury, so he has faced the fear of his career being over. Top cornerbacks make $10 million a year, and I'm sure Robinson is worried that he must still prove himself if he just gets a one-year offer. When you are rated as highly as Robinson among cornerbacks, you are hoping to cash in for the guaranteed long-term money. A one-year offer in the $9 million range doesn't compare to a $50 million or $60 million deal that has $20 million in guarantees. In the end, I think he will get that long-term deal. You should worry if he doesn't show up at training camp. That's where contract problems start to really hurt a team.

Big Lou
06-12-2009, 10:40 AM
Let me preface by saying prior to this little contract dispute I loved Dunta. He can hit like a guy 30 lbs. heavier than he is and is never afraid to stick some body no matter who it is. He was a Team Leader and all around awesome player. To come back from his injury like he did is amazing,, you couldn't ask for a better player........ Until now. I totally understand him wanting to take care of his family, but I think the offer the Texans put out last was more than fair. It's not the Texans fault that he was injured that is just part of the game.

If Dunta thinks that the offer the Texans put out there wasn't good enough and he thinks he can do better than let's just find out. First I would tell Dunta and his agent that last thing that I want to do is lose Dunta as part of the orginization, but let's find out what the market is for D Rob.

My offer (If I were Rick Smith):

Let Dunta and his agent talk to teams about a trade. Depending on the team interested the offer would have to be a 2nd and a 5th for teams that would probably draft in 2010 in the bottom 16, and a 2nd and a 4th for teams probably drafting in the top 16. Now the hitch is that the money offered by this team has to be comparable as far as duration, and has to be substantially more than the Texans offer. If no team meets these obligations then that means the Texans offer is more than likley close to market value for a guy coming of an injury of the nature of Dunta's. Therefore Dunta has to swallow if pride and sign the last best offer the Texans put on the table.

I think Dunta needs to see that the Texans aren't insane and they have a good offer on the table, more than likely better than anything out there. I love(d) D Rob and everything about him, but he needs to look at the big picture here.

Polo
06-12-2009, 11:07 AM
Let me preface by saying prior to this little contract dispute I loved Dunta. He can hit like a guy 30 lbs. heavier than he is and is never afraid to stick some body no matter who it is. He was a Team Leader and all around awesome player. To come back from his injury like he did is amazing,, you couldn't ask for a better player........ Until now. I totally understand him wanting to take care of his family, but I think the offer the Texans put out last was more than fair. It's not the Texans fault that he was injured that is just part of the game.

If Dunta thinks that the offer the Texans put out there wasn't good enough and he thinks he can do better than let's just find out. First I would tell Dunta and his agent that last thing that I want to do is lose Dunta as part of the orginization, but let's find out what the market is for D Rob.

My offer (If I were Rick Smith):

Let Dunta and his agent talk to teams about a trade. Depending on the team interested the offer would have to be a 2nd and a 5th for teams that would probably draft in 2010 in the bottom 16, and a 2nd and a 4th for teams probably drafting in the top 16. Now the hitch is that the money offered by this team has to be comparable as far as duration, and has to be substantially more than the Texans offer. If no team meets these obligations then that means the Texans offer is more than likley close to market value for a guy coming of an injury of the nature of Dunta's. Therefore Dunta has to swallow if pride and sign the last best offer the Texans put on the table.

I think Dunta needs to see that the Texans aren't insane and they have a good offer on the table, more than likely better than anything out there. I love(d) D Rob and everything about him, but he needs to look at the big picture here.

I would imagine that they have already put feelers out to determine what his market value is...Otherwise Dunta has a very poor agent...

I don't think the Texans franchise him if they felt like they could get him on the cheap...All it takes is one team willing to drastically overpay to drive the bargain...

cland
06-12-2009, 12:45 PM
Big Lou, I think your plan hinges on the fact that teams wouldn't want to give up the draft choices, and I don't think that's the case. I think a team would snap him up at that cost.

Dunta was drafted #10 overall... He proved he was worth it, and he's entering the prime years of his career. I also think he showed enough last year to ease worries about the knee/leg.

Think about the trade value of that #10. To trade down to a 2nd and 4th/5th wouldn't nearly be enough, you'd have to add a later first at least.

badboy
06-12-2009, 01:27 PM
I think the Teaxans are very happy with the CBs on roster. If DR comes back or is gone with team getting picks, the coach is satisfied. If I were Dunta, I'd play for this season @ $10 million show all what he can do and hope he get better offer next year from team. That may not happen or he could be franchised again. I do not see that happening unless Bennett, Reeves or Molden are not what is needed.

CloakNNNdagger
06-12-2009, 02:19 PM
Big Lou, I think your plan hinges on the fact that teams wouldn't want to give up the draft choices, and I don't think that's the case. I think a team would snap him up at that cost.

Dunta was drafted #10 overall... He proved he was worth it, and he's entering the prime years of his career. I also think he showed enough last year to ease worries about the knee/leg.

Think about the trade value of that #10. To trade down to a 2nd and 4th/5th wouldn't nearly be enough, you'd have to add a later first at least.

Huh????????

disaacks3
06-12-2009, 02:24 PM
Huh????????
Glad it's not just me... :confused:

I had PLENTY of worries about it (the leg) BEFORE all this hue & cry over the contractural stuff.

cland
06-12-2009, 05:29 PM
What I saw last year was a guy getting off a successful ACL surgery. His play looked a little tentative, a little unsure of the knee. That is perfectly normal, and is why people say it takes more than a year to be fully back from an ACL tear. He played in 11 games which is enough to convince me, and I expect him to play pro-bowl type CB next year. I'm of the opinion that some GM(s) will agree.

hot pickle
06-12-2009, 05:56 PM
i remember a td that he allowed against oakland and it looked like he didnt even try ... i loved dunta but he played his cards all wrong on this one.. he doesnt wanna play for houston anymore and it almost looks like it shows with his play on the field.. i dunno if i even want him back at this point

CloakNNNdagger
06-12-2009, 06:05 PM
What I saw last year was a guy getting off a successful ACL surgery. His play looked a little tentative, a little unsure of the knee. That is perfectly normal, and is why people say it takes more than a year to be fully back from an ACL tear. He played in 11 games which is enough to convince me, and I expect him to play pro-bowl type CB next year. I'm of the opinion that some GM(s) will agree.

He never played ProBowl caliber football. Furthermore, preinjury, he played on Texans Ds that would have made any average CB look like ProBowl material in comparison. You are correct about this year being his do or die ACL recovery. But there is absolutely no guarantee that what you saw last year is not the max level at which can or will ever performed. He has done nothing to PROVE himself worthy of a Texans long-term expensive contract. And unless there are dumb as hell GMs out there (and they are drying up quickly in this economy) that would chance that game, a one year jackpot will just have to do. If Dunta doesn't understand that, then he would be well served to seek employment as a "consultant" to one of those leftover dumb as hell GMs. Where is Casserly when you need him?

cland
06-12-2009, 06:11 PM
He never played ProBowl caliber football. Furthermore, preinjury, he played on Texans Ds that would have made any average CB look like ProBowl material in comparison. You are correct about this year being his do or die ACL recovery. But there is absolutely no guarantee that what you saw last year is not the max level at which can or will ever performed. He has done nothing to PROVE himself worthy of a Texans long-term expensive contract. And unless there are dumb as hell GMs out there (and they are drying up quickly in this economy) that would chance that game, a one year jackpot will just have to do. If Dunta doesn't understand that, then he would be well served to seek employment as a "consultant" to one of those leftover dumb as hell GMs. Where is Casserly when you need him?
How do you justify the $23 million dollar contract the Texans' reportedly offered to him? The Texans' have 11 post-injury games on film, and plenty of doctors/trainers/coaches to evaluate the footage.

Lucky
06-12-2009, 07:03 PM
If Dunta thinks that the offer the Texans put out there wasn't good enough and he thinks he can do better than let's just find out.
I was about to respond, when I realized that I had already covered this ground in another thread. Is there a need for a new Dunta thread? I don't think so. So...welcome to the "Dunta outlines terms" thread.

barrett
06-12-2009, 08:29 PM
What I saw last year was a guy getting off a successful ACL surgery. His play looked a little tentative, a little unsure of the knee. That is perfectly normal, and is why people say it takes more than a year to be fully back from an ACL tear. He played in 11 games which is enough to convince me, and I expect him to play pro-bowl type CB next year. I'm of the opinion that some GM(s) will agree.

Would you be willing to risk 23 million dollars based on what you expect? Are you that sure? Pretend you're not a fan playing with Texans Monopoly money. Pretend your job depends on it. I'm suprised they offered him that much. I think the franchise tag is the ONLY reasonable offer for a player in Dunta's position.

cland
06-12-2009, 11:49 PM
Right, the point of the post was to defer to the Texans' staff. My thought being that the Texans' FO must be convinced the leg's going to be fine if they offered him a 23 million dollar contract.

Runner
06-13-2009, 12:10 AM
Right, the point of the post was to defer to the Texans' staff. My thought being that the Texans' FO must be convinced the leg's going to be fine if they offered him a 23 million dollar contract.

Just remember that the $23M offer is just a rumor right now, although I think the franchise offer is easily worth signing.

mexican_texan
06-13-2009, 12:32 AM
Just remember that the $23M offer is just a rumor right now, although I think the franchise offer is easily worth signing.
Who was it that reported those figures? If it was McClain, I think it was more assumption than actual fact.

Runner
06-13-2009, 12:41 AM
Who was it that reported those figures? If it was McClain, I think it was more assumption than actual fact.


It was an unconfirmed report by McCain. It seems too high when compared to Smith's savvy, so I question its veracity.

CloakNNNdagger
06-13-2009, 08:04 AM
There has never been a confirmation of the $23 million contract or the terms of such a contract. I doubt seriously that in light of his known level performance and other questions, such a contract exists. Furthermore, if a new CBA is not reached, and Dunta bombs out or gets reinjured in 2009, I believe it would have significant $$$ loss to the Texans should they wish to release him. The guaranteed monies would need to be addressed all in one year........2010. Even with a new CBA, it would be another longer term cap drain.

infantrycak
06-13-2009, 08:52 AM
There has never been a confirmation of the $23 million contract or the terms of such a contract. I doubt seriously that in light of his known level performance and other questions, such a contract exists. Furthermore, if a new CBA is not reached, and Dunta bombs out or gets reinjured in 2009, I believe it would have significant $$$ loss to the Texans should they wish to release him. The guaranteed monies would need to be addressed all in one year........2010. Even with a new CBA, it would be another longer term cap drain.

There are nuances being missed in this thread. Players for years have wanted guaranteed money and wisely so. Traditionally in the cap era that has come almost exclusively in the form of signing bonus. The Texans have been one of the prime movers of change in that regard and it has gone largely unnoticed. Mario Williams for instance received zero signing bonus. His first year he received a $2.65 mil roster bonus plus his salary. Jacques Reeves is another example. He had $8 mil guaranteed but only $4 mil came as signing bonus, then they guaranteed his first year salary and part of the 2nd year. They are providing the players guaranteed money by doing what is not traditional - guaranteeing some of the yearly salaries. Could be they offered Dunta $5 mil signing bonus with guaranteed salaries the 1st two years to get to $23 mil when Dunta wanted a $18 mil signing bonus and $5 mil guaranteed first year salary.

Cap wise it is a different risk division. Pay Dunta an $18 mil signing bonus and he has a career ending injury you have to account for all the signing bonus in that year or the next. Guarantee the same amount over 2-3 years as salary and you still have dead money but can time it out as you choose. Agents and players are going to have to learn to adapt to a new dynamic and frankly they should accept that guaranteed salaries may be progress. I am waiting for the first guy with a guaranteed salary from team X getting cut and then receiving a salary from team X plus a new salary from team Y who they sign with after getting cut.

Lucky
06-13-2009, 09:03 AM
Cap wise it is a different risk division. Pay Dunta an $18 mil signing bonus and he has a career ending injury you have to account for all the signing bonus in that year or the next. Guarantee the same amount over 2-3 years as salary and you still have dead money but can time it out as you choose.
I don't know if there's a big difference between the signing bonus, and the guaranteed salaries. If Dunta were given a large signing bonus and was subsequently injured, the Texans could carry him on IR without taking a big cap hit in a given year. As the Broncos did with Terrell Davis.

Still, your point that the collective we (Texans fans) don't really know the nuances of the contract offered to Dunta, nor what he has requested, is absolutely valid. We're making stuff up, then passing judgement based on the stuff we just made up.

In other words, business as usual here at Texanstalk. :)

infantrycak
06-13-2009, 09:10 AM
I don't know if there's a big difference between the signing bonus, and the guaranteed salaries. If Dunta were given a large signing bonus and was subsequently injured, the Texans could carry him on IR without taking a big cap hit in a given year. As the Broncos did with Terrell Davis.

Still, your point that the collective we (Texans fans) don't really know the nuances of the contract offered to Dunta, nor what he has requested, is absolutely valid. We're making stuff up, then passing judgement based on the stuff we just made up.

In other words, business as usual here at Texanstalk. :)

I don't know the specifics of the TD situation but it sounds like they did it out of hope, self interest on cap implications or kindness and not guarantee.

This is a funny kind of debate in a way. Players have been saying for years they need to get huge signing bonuses because they could be injured or hurt at any time. It appears the Texans are one of a few teams pushing a response of fine we'll guarantee X number of years even if you get cut or injured. Looks like the players/agents are reacting with, crap we don't really want that, we want the money up front. Not taking a side here, just observing the interesting negotiation.

barrett
06-13-2009, 09:19 AM
Four of the most well thought out, interesting posts I've seen on this forum in a long time. Great points all. Pleasure to read.

Interesting, refreshing angle to this tired, tired story. I think it's always important to keep in mind that as fans, we don't have much, if any information and we base many strong opinions on speculation.

Texans_Chick
06-13-2009, 02:09 PM
Check out what Jerome Solomon says in his blog comments (http://blogs.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2009/06/owen_and_dunta_are_not_holdout.html) relating to Dunta:


"Dunta did not turn down top-five, as in top five cornerbacks in the league, money. That's just absolutely inaccurate."


I have read that Dunta was offered a "Gamble" type deal. Gamble's "guaranteed money" was split over two seasons. Was the same true with Dunta's offer?

---------------------------------------------------------
I don't know about the structure of the guaranteed money, but the average of the contract is below what Dunta wants.


Dunta hasn't turned down top five money. Check the facts. Remember when your mother put those vegetables in front of you and you waited to eat them last, hoping she would come back with a better offer? You didn't turn them down, you just let her know you would prefer a better offer. Chocolate cake maybe? Right now, the vegetables are still on the table and the Texans haven't put enough cake out to make Dunta eat anything. ... I am curious as to how looking out for one's interest in this cases is selfish AND stupid. That's just not possible. But I guess if you consider negotiating a wage is selfish, and that's such a bad thing, then you would think it is stupid to NOT accept the first offer a company puts on the table. ... Steven's guide on how to be a smart businessman: 1. Don't look out for your best interest, always think of what's best for the company you're negotiating with. 2. Accept the first offer.

Runner
06-13-2009, 02:42 PM
Good quotes TC.

Cooler heads tried to explain that a lot of venom was being directed at Dunta based on assumptions and little information. Beliefs are harder to refute than knowledge though. These quotes seem to line up more with what is known than the original report. Many knew Dunta to be eogtistical and greedy for turning down such a generous offer. It makes more sense that such an offer didn't exist. If he was whining in the press as much as was complained about, you'd think he'd have said that. The fact is he hasn't been in the press much.

edo783
06-13-2009, 03:18 PM
The reason I think there was a valid 5-6 year deal at the ~23 million mark is that neither Dunta nor his agent have come out and said it wasn't made. If the offer was substantially less than what has been reported, I am pretty sure they would have no problem coming out and saying NO it wasn't. Now more to I-Caks point, they may not like how it is structured. I'm not sure what the difference it makes if you get you get the 23 mill in signing bonus or guaranteed over 2-3 years. I suppose it is a bit like winning the lottery and taking the money in cash instead of the 25 year payout. To me, I think a 2-3 year payout wouldn't be a bad thing, should help on taxes. Maybe he just wants to buy a really big house, who knows.

Runner
06-13-2009, 03:25 PM
I think neither Dunta nor the Texans have said much because neither are negotiating in the press.

infantrycak
06-13-2009, 07:33 PM
Check out what Jerome Solomon says in his blog comments (http://blogs.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2009/06/owen_and_dunta_are_not_holdout.html) relating to Dunta:

Interesting issue here totally separate from Dunta, but he is the example. What is journalistic integrity in this instance? We now have three Chronicle reporters acting like they know what happened and yet reporting very divergent things. Should they be talking to each other, reconfirming their sources, should there be a step back until they can get consistency or is each reporter totally independent, etc.? McClain has made a flat out statement that Solomon has a flat out statement to contradict and then their is MsJustice who out of his sphincter and ignorance of his compatriots info denied what McClain said as well. Rambling, but seems like they should come up with A story rather than what now appears to be lawn darts.