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Ibar_Harry
01-22-2005, 04:16 PM
But next year will be year 4 for David and all he has been doing is laying on the ground soaking up the sky through the roof of Reliant. :thud: I wonder if that is getting just a little bit old. With all of the talk of no upgrade to the O-line I wonder if he might be thinking about moving on? Hasn't been a real satisfying experience in Texas. I have stated many times that we have a lot more to do next year to make it a successful one and I have a feeling its just not in the cards. I don't think changes will happen until the stadium begins to take on the empty look like the last game of the season. That didn't bother them, because the seats were already paid for. Its true the NFL is always a delicate balance, but quite frankly we had a lot of pluses going for us this year and we wound up with a lot of negatives. I will say till I'm blue in the face that injuries a year ago have set this team back at least 2-3 years. The biggest problem is not that injuries occurred is how we reacted to those injuries. We have simply not recognized the limitations of the players involved and moved on to shore up those positions. I think age has been a big factor in some of those injuries and the players probably will never fully recover. Glenn is one of those. I think he's on the down side, because of injuries, age and changes in the defensive rules. Now, don't misunderstand. I'm not saying Glenn isn't any good, but rather he has peeked and he's on the downside with people like Coleman, Payne, Wiegert and Walker. If the plan was to have a group of experience and inexperienced contenders, I think the plan is down the drain. At this point I will say I'm pessimistic, but I will reserve judgement until free agency. If we make no substantial moves in the FA market, then I would say kiss next year off. Is Casserly putting up smoke screens? McNair said they were going to protect David. How does that happen without some new personnel? Seems to me there are a number of contradictory statments being made.

MIGHTYTEX
01-22-2005, 04:29 PM
"McNair said they were going to protect David. How does that happen without some new personnel?"

Give the O-line personal one more year. They were set-back this year in 2 ways. First was cause they had players playing in new positions and I think the most visible and real reason is cause of the new zone blocking zone. If you look at the stats from year 1 to year 2 the O-Line improved and would most likely have improved this year as well, but with adding Wade, Wand and moving Pitts inside is enough to cause some inconsisentency for a few weeks cause of having to learn to play next to new people. Now you add in a new blocking scheme and that means that they for the most part through caution to the wind last year in part hoping that it will pay off in this up coming year.

astrofan
01-22-2005, 05:43 PM
we've got BJ
let Carr go play in Green Bay or Oakland or somewhere else
Carr has said he wants to retire early and I believe him
BJ will hold us until the kid from Ennis (http://texastech.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/harrell_graham00.html) is ready to go
12,532 yards and 167 touchdowns...

Carr Bombed
01-22-2005, 06:39 PM
yeah we also have banks and ragone :listening did you see the numbers the red raiders put up this year. BJ is a product of the system he played in and is comming off a major knee injury and is unproven as a nfl qb. That move would pretty much destroy this franchise. We would turn into the dallas cowboys- always searching for the franchise qb.

astrofan
01-22-2005, 07:13 PM
did you see the numbers the red raiders put up this year.

yes I did, and they sucked
59 TDs vs. 32 TDs
nice try

LiveForTheGame
01-22-2005, 07:16 PM
yeah we also have banks and ragone :listening did you see the numbers the red raiders put up this year. BJ is a product of the system he played in and is comming off a major knee injury and is unproven as a nfl qb. That move would pretty much destroy this franchise. We would turn into the dallas cowboys- always searching for the franchise qb.

BJ and the team he was playing with set records all over the NCAA and school record books. You can't say it's the system when one season is so much more dominant than the rest. The kid is good, but as you said he is an unproven NFL Qb. Once he's healthy we'll see the truth

astrofan
01-22-2005, 07:41 PM
just what is a "product of a system"?
you hear this all the time from horn and aggie fans

is it LaDainian or Peyton or Cedric Benson?
how about Farve or Culpepper or McNair?

I am curious is to what would define a guy as "not a product of a system"
I know small schools play either six-on-six or seven-on-seven
but it seems in american football (11-on-11) that everybody is the product of the system

Pflugerville was awesome this year. Was it the "system" or because they had one of the baddest players in the country playing quarterback?

maybe you don't know what it means and just repeat little catchphrases you hear. if anyone can define "product of a system" in a negative light (and without using Tech in the answer), please respond.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
01-22-2005, 07:45 PM
Denver RBs = product of the system

astrofan
01-22-2005, 07:51 PM
Denver RBs = product of the system

I see...
system=offensive line

well I guess that clears it up

texans
01-22-2005, 09:11 PM
50 pass atemps a game=huge numbers

astrofan
01-22-2005, 09:42 PM
well, at least we can take Cedric Bong-san off the top of the big board
after all, university of austin runs it more than 50 times a game
must be the system
thanks for clearing that up

D-ReK
01-22-2005, 10:07 PM
If you need an example of a system QB, look no further than Danny Weurfell (SP?) or any other Florida QB during the Spurrier years...Most were marginal talents with bloated stats based on the coach's "system", or scheme of play-calling...

That being said, I wouldn't say Symons was a "product of Tech's system" because he clearly played better than Kingsbury and Cumbie...When records are broken that handily, you can't credit "the system" for all of it...

However, I am somewhat skeptical that Symons can be the QB that leads this team to prominence...It's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it...

gg no re
01-22-2005, 10:34 PM
What NCAA record? The only one Symons broke is passing yards, and as everyone knows, passing yards=nil, null, and void, especially when we're talking about 50-60 attempts a game.

That's like taking today's Emmitt Smith, rush him 40 times a game @ 3.3 ypc for 2112 yards over 16 games, and proclaim him to be the greatest 2,000 yard rusher ever.

Symons isn't capable of being starter quality..... no other QB out of the Big 12 other than Chris Simms and Kordell Stewart has become NFL starter quality.

D-ReK
01-22-2005, 10:52 PM
If your reply was directed at me, I was talking more about school records, not NCAA records...

But here is Symons' list of records from his HoustonTexans.Com (http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster_detail.php?PRKey=98) profile...

started for the first time as a senior and set NCAA single-season records for passing yards (5,833), most games with 400 yards in total offense (9), most yards in total offense (5,976), most passing yards per game (448.79), and most yards in total offense per game (459.69)…ranks fifth on school’s career record list with 6,378 passing yards…completed 529 of 822 attempts with 59 TDs and 25 INTs…only Kliff Kingsbury (95, 1999-2002) had more career TD tosses…gained 6,586 yards in total offense to rank fourth in school annals…threw an astounding 52 TDs as a senior…

Carr Bombed
01-22-2005, 11:52 PM
yes I did, and they sucked
59 TDs vs. 32 TDs
nice try


I'm not talking about tds I'm talking about the philosophy or system as in passing atempts. I wasn't arguing who was the better qb at TT so you can go ahead and threw your little stats out the window NICE TRY though. I liked the draft pick of BJ as a solid backup, but theres a reason why he fell so low in the draft. He was put in a system that allowed him to put up gaudy numbers and he's comming off a major knee injury. I'm sorry call me stupid but that does not sound like someone that I want to hand the keys to my franchise over to.

oh and by the way someone putting up 32 td drives in their first full year of college ball does not suck. agian NICE TRY

Grid
01-23-2005, 01:13 AM
it all boils down to "whats more impressive".. a QB with a buttload of passing touchdowns in a run dominant offense.. or a QB with a buttload of passing touchdowns in a pass dominant offense? that is where the "product of the system" comes into play.

It doesnt mean that BJ is a bust.. as some people are trying to imply.. all it means is that you cannot judge his talent based on his stats or even necessarily his play on the field. You have to put him in the game, on an NFL level, and see what he does when he isnt being given every opportunity to succeed.

I know what ive got in David Carr.. and I want to keep that. BJ can ride the pine and learn the ropes.. ill be happy to have someone that at least has potential behind carr.. but I wouldnt even put a nickle on him being a better QB.. there is just absolutely no way to tell.

Ibar_Harry
01-23-2005, 03:22 AM
I don't care who the QB is right now, because he will be flat on his Bxx a good percentage of the time. The O-line has been less than great. Manning would be a basket case if he were playing for Houston. That's how bad the O-line is. David really does a lot when you consider what he's playing behind. I'm not certain how others would perform in the same position, but I think everyone would have a lot of trouble. Am I saying David is great, no! I'm saying we know David has talent, but I think we have only seen glimpses of what he can do. Will David be a Manning? Probably not, as Manning is a very gifted person. But David could be a whole lot better than we are seeing right now. I continue to worry about the management of this team and continue to say the the talents of AJ and DC are being wasted by the coaching staff.

Vinny
01-23-2005, 11:04 AM
Ibar, all you ever do is bash the team and it sure gets old. I wish some of you Carr-only-fan fresno guys wouldn't troll us so hard. We are on pace to do big things and all you can do is complain about a style of football you will see in todays Championship game. Over and over its the same bashing, and for the last 3 years....same thing. Very old stuff by now.

astrofan
01-23-2005, 11:22 AM
as Spike Dykes would say: the most popular player on the team is always the backup quarterback

speaking of coach Spike, he would be a good advisor for the Texans. After all, how many coaches in history have produced multiple Doak Walker winners?
He did play for Rice so hopefully he has a little H-Town loyalty

the only negative thing is his five years at university of austin

Marcus
01-23-2005, 12:27 PM
Ibar, I agree with Vinny . . . I'm absolutely sick to death of your negative rants. You've never said one single positive thing about this team ever since you got on this MB. Granted, you're entitled to an opinion just like anyone else, but some objectivity would be nice once in awhile. And you are schitzophrenic when it comes to criticizing. On one hand you say that offensive line is the reason why Carr is not coming along, and then on the other, it's all about the management again. It's just a constant, while at the same time, inconsistant broken record.

I just wish you would quit being a fan of the Houston Texans, and consider switching allegiance to the Washington Redskins or the Cleveland Browns. They both have a management style a lot more suitable to your tastes.

:mad: :twocents:

Texan Gal 312
01-23-2005, 01:02 PM
Ibar, all you ever do is bash the team and it sure gets old. I wish some of you Carr-only-fan fresno guys wouldn't troll us so hard. We are on pace to do big things and all you can do is complain about a style of football you will see in todays Championship game. Over and over its the same bashing, and for the last 3 years....same thing. Very old stuff by now.

AMEN ! And AstroFan :rofl: If you are serious all I can say is I am glad you are not a Texas Alumni.

astrofan
01-23-2005, 01:31 PM
AMEN ! And AstroFan :rofl: If you are serious all I can say is I am glad you are not a Texas Alumni.

I am a huge Leach fan as well and he spent a year in Norman, so I have learned to forgive and forget. Everybody has some youthful indescretions of some magnitude. My Mom even went to school at university of austin.

Bassin Texan fan
01-23-2005, 04:46 PM
ibar you sound like you where a" bud adams" :whew fan as well

Honoring Earl 34
01-23-2005, 05:05 PM
:howdy: Buds loosing his coaches because he did not sigh an extention for them. I believe Carr will make some Pro Bowls. Thats relative to the Texans going two rounds into the playoffs and beyond. QBs get to much credit and to much blame.

Ibar_Harry
01-25-2005, 03:13 AM
Ibar, all you ever do is bash the team and it sure gets old. I wish some of you Carr-only-fan fresno guys wouldn't troll us so hard. We are on pace to do big things and all you can do is complain about a style of football you will see in todays Championship game. Over and over its the same bashing, and for the last 3 years....same thing. Very old stuff by now.

At least I give reasons for what I believe. I see no facts in what you are saying. I have said repeatidly that injuries have decimated the management's plans and I don't think that is unfair at all. Did they plan for that to happen, NO! But it's reality and I think its had a substantial affect on this season. Was Carr once again flat on his back more this season than last. The answer to that is yes. I just keep saying that management says on the one hand they are going to fix it and on the other hand they are not. It is a fact that this will be Carr's 4th year and he's not getting any younger. You can only take a beating so long, before it begins to affect you. You are openly critical of Carr, well, may be the beatings he's taking our having an affect. I do not call what I'm saying bashing when I'm really stating it the way it is. When someone disagrees with you, you immediately call them a basher. I have stated I don't think we will make dramatic improvement unless we make moves in the FA market. Well if we don't, then next season will tell us who was right and who was wrong or may be it will be somewhere in between. I will also say that many of us were very optomistic at the end of the second season. It looked like we were making great strides given the very large number of injuries the club had sustained. In my opinion, sorry, I do not think we made very much if any progress this year in many respects. Did we have some good things happen, certainly. DROB was certainly a plus and Babin seemed to come along well. AJ had a good year, but disappeared towards the end. Did any other receiver have an outstanding year? Gaffny had some success, but he disappeared at times too. The one consistant player on this ball club, JJ, always seems to be in the replacement mode by a lot of people. Why? How good was this year's kicking game when compared to last year? Did injuries affect that? Yes, they did. Will our kicking game be back on schedule next year or do we need some replacements here also? I think if you really take the rose colored glasses off, you might realisticly see there are some needs on this ball club and I don't think they can be filled by existing personnel or the draft. Again, is that bashing?

Vinny
01-25-2005, 03:24 AM
I don't wear rose colored glasses Harry. I'm not sure what you base some of your comments on because they always seem to be out of left field. Carry on....I'll be here to read you hammering the team for a long while, so have at it. I feel compelled to answer some of this stuff and it’s a bad habit. If you understood a little more football it wouldn't be so bad since you call for everyone's head on a regular basis. When you broke down and ranted about how Capers makes poor coaching decisions because we should have went for it inside the 20 yard line (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=67709&postcount=42) on a 4th and 2 (with 4:12 left in the game) instead of going up three scores (we were up 14-0 at the time) in the Jaguar game, I just pretty much stopped responding to you because its useless arguing with that little logic and simple understanding of what it takes to win football games. I see your posts and want to add some balance, but really, I just need to forgetaboutit. This one is my bad. I know better.

utahmark
01-25-2005, 07:12 AM
product of the system. david klinger/andre ware.

TexansTrueFan
01-25-2005, 10:26 AM
Carr isnt going any where. And who knows maybe the front office knows what they are talking about and the o-line will magically give carr some protection next season. We improved by 2 games this season and have seen improvment every year. So this will be our fourth year and with 9 wins we may see a wild card spot next season, i dont think things are looking so bad for us. We have a young quality RB, and good accurate QB who can scramble and make things happen, 3 very good YOUNG WR, and a lot of young blood in the Secondary of the Defense. So why are yall thinking so negativly ? I have not yet been dissapointed with the Texans, i mean look we could have the cardnials instead :shocked, be proud of our team (this is a team on the rise)

Dime
01-25-2005, 11:28 AM
What NCAA record? The only one Symons broke is passing yards, and as everyone knows, passing yards=nil, null, and void, especially when we're talking about 50-60 attempts a game.

That's like taking today's Emmitt Smith, rush him 40 times a game @ 3.3 ypc for 2112 yards over 16 games, and proclaim him to be the greatest 2,000 yard rusher ever.

Symons isn't capable of being starter quality..... no other QB out of the Big 12 other than Chris Simms and Kordell Stewart has become NFL starter quality.

Really... I thought Kurt Warner was out of the big 12, and since he was passed over in the draft, but is one of the staples we have a QB Veterns, I dont think you should talk about anyone not being able to do anything unless the show nothing on a NFL field a few times.

TexansTrueFan
01-25-2005, 11:48 AM
i think B.J could be a good back-up for us. Did he play in the pre-season or was he injuried ?

Dime
01-25-2005, 05:28 PM
i think B.J could be a good back-up for us. Did he play in the pre-season or was he injuried ?

He was Injured.

Ibar_Harry
01-26-2005, 07:21 PM
Vinny we can agree to disagree and post and enjoy the differences. My point when I started this thread was if we don't do anything in FA I feel we will be at best at the same spot as this year or worse. I don't believe that we can fill the remaining needs through the draft and injuries and age will take their toll on this team this coming year. You obviously feel differently about it, but why? For example, how will Bruener fit in next year? I think most will say he really didn't add much to this year's team. I think they had far more expectations for him than he showed. Did Wade really impress? Did Smith really impress? My impression was that people thought these additions would have far more impact than they did. In fact I think the rookies out performed the FA's as far as impact and expectations are concerned. We can see the upside with respect to the draftees, but I'm not so certain about the big bucks FA's we signed last year.

infantrycak
01-26-2005, 10:13 PM
Vinny we can agree to disagree and post and enjoy the differences. My point when I started this thread was if we don't do anything in FA I feel we will be at best at the same spot as this year or worse. I don't believe that we can fill the remaining needs through the draft and injuries and age will take their toll on this team this coming year. You obviously feel differently about it, but why? For example, how will Bruener fit in next year? I think most will say he really didn't add much to this year's team. I think they had far more expectations for him than he showed. Did Wade really impress? Did Smith really impress? My impression was that people thought these additions would have far more impact than they did. In fact I think the rookies out performed the FA's as far as impact and expectations are concerned. We can see the upside with respect to the draftees, but I'm not so certain about the big bucks FA's we signed last year.

Ibar, first IMO no one minds you expressing your opinion. The problem IMO is that you inject the same opinion into every post/thread.

That said, I will give a stab at responding to above. 1st you demonstrated the problem with your position in the conflict presented in your post above. Only FA's will solve things according to you--the draft won't fix things, but at the same time the FA's the Texans signed last year essentially didn't do anything and the draftees did. Well so which way is it? Are you really advocating that the Texans do what you say didn't work last year?

If you expected more from the FA's (and by the way, the characterizing most or everyone as being in agreement with your position thing is annoying) maybe those were unrealistic expectations on your part. Like it or not, but one fact in the cap NFL is everything can't be solved with FA's--no team can be built by buying the top 2-3 FA's each year and just filling scrubs around them--ask the Skins (for a contrary example see the Patriots, a team built almost entirely through the draft). Smith (who improved dramatically as he got used to the system) and Wade were were the #1 and #2 FA's last year at their positions--what would you have had the Texans do? Smith and Wade will both be very solid pieces of the team for quite a while barring injury. Bruener did what he had a reputation for, blocked--did you expect him to be Heap or Gonzalez as well?

Ibar_Harry
01-27-2005, 02:59 AM
For whatever its worth I think the number of draftees available to us will not let us fill all of the holes we have and the experienced older players are on the downside of the curve. I think we might agree on the fact that the BJ draft has hurt us expectation wise and cost us a valueable player. Again that's hind sight, but all I'm saying is we unfortunately didn't get all that we wanted from that pick, as well as, Hollings. We use to have a poster who seemed to have extensive medical knowledge and he felt that BJ would never play, because of the type of injury he sustained and the probability of it healing to the point he could play. The gentleman has been dead on so far. Again we have sustained a whole series of unplanned injuries which I think will result in us having to revamp our plans.

Now as far as being optomistic or pessimistic. Lets start with the end of last season. We had sustained a lot of injuries, but our reserves had held their own against the Colts and Patriots and we were quite proud of their performances as well as the coaches. I think we all felt at that point in time that we had a lot to look forward to this year. It looked like everything was coming together and we should be a whole lot stronger when the injured players returned to form and it looked like we had a good nucleus of reserves. We were looking forward to the draft and felt if we picked up a couple of good players we could be looking at a playoff contender certainly based on the last few games at the end of the season. DD was on all 4 cylinders, AJ, and Carr had looked good, although Carr had of course suffered and injury to his shoulder.

If you look at where we left off last year and where we began this year, I think you will say their was a big drop off. I feel we never reached the point where we left off with the previous year's team. Yes, the record was better, but our schedule was a lot weaker than the previous year. What seemed like proven reserves vanished, key injured personnel didn't heal as fast as expected, and the coaching staff didn't seem to have the majic of the previous year. In other words, for whatever reason, we lost the team chemistry we had the previous year and never go it back.

In some ways the only consistant player the entire year was JJ and he got injured near the end. JJ has certainly taken his shots from the fans, but there is not question about his hands and his ability to catch the ball. He seems to give us good field position for the most part even though he doesn't seem to be a big return threat.

I think everyone will agree that the last game of the season against the Browns was an abombination to say the least. A lot of people were very bothered by the performance of the team against the Browns. I think that game was a bigger indicator than most of you think. For 1 we were once again vulnerable to a good passing QB who had any protection at all. Our secondary was eaten alive. Our defense not only disappeared, but so did our offense. In some ways I would call our game against the Vikings as being one of our best and showed what we can do. However, the Vikes are not a defensive power house and any team who had a defense hurt us. When the defensive team can use 4 rushers and tie up a great deal of your offensive players and still get to the QB you have a problem. Again the KC win was against a team with a poor defense. So was the win against Oakland.

To make a long story short, I simply do not believe we can stand pat and improve next year. We must make moves to change the chemistry and skill level of this ball club if we are going to improve. In a few weeks we will see what happens when the FA market opens up. I'm wondering how many we will loose to FA and what impact that will have on things. If what Cassely is saying is not a smoke screen, then I think next season will be very long and unfullfilling. I truely hope its NOT........................

fresno8
01-27-2005, 03:32 AM
I tend to agree w/ Ibar on the line issues and at times the coaches. Ibar seems negative in a lot of posts, but our line has been terrible. You really can't say much positive about the line. I do like how Vinny keeps things positive and how he see's the long term direction for this team. Going 7-9 this year was good and I was happy w/ the season and am just dying to see what we do in the draft and F/A. However a lot of our losses were bad this year and we do need some "suttle" changes to get more consistent and to the next level. I like Vinny's pick of Baas and how he traded down to do it. I think if we could get Baas, sign an elite LT and keep our other lineman in tact the line will really solidyify and we'll see how our offense goes from there and how the coaches call the plays. I'd like to see us grab a CB or D-lineman in the 2nd and a lineman (O or D)in the 3rd plus a WR. Then we could possilbly land Grisby in the 4th or (3rd if we traded down and picked up an extra 3rd) at MLB or a diamond in the rough MLB in the 4th (got faith in Cass and scouts). I think we don't need much in F/A. I hope we go hard after top talent only at LT(Jones/Pace) and MLB(Hartwell/Bell) and address the rest through the draft. This team is defiantely going in the right direction and even when we rant we just want to see the best for the Texans. I hope our fans keep in perspective we're still young and building a lasting team not a 1 year wonder.

ccdude730
01-27-2005, 04:01 AM
i dont think LT is an issue for us. if we go after one through FA i will be shocked.

with that said i agree with those who feel somewhat "conservative" about the issue of free agency. i can see us MAYBE picking up a LB in hartwell or bell. but as for other positions such as LT, WR, TE i wont believe it until i see it.

bruener came in and did what he was called in to do. block! all those pitches and runs to the outside were because of bruener. i think he was a great addition to the team. as for miller, he is a former WR who can beat almost any LB - when used correctly, he can be a weapon. im hopeful (call me silly) about joppru and his rehabilitation.

wand got beaten several times. especially against INDY, but that was understood he would struggle. i see his game step WAY up next season.

i wouldnt be too shocked to see them try to bring in a guy who can replace bradfords speed on the outside. a little more consistancy in catching the ball and getting open would do great. its just a matter of bringing in a high dollar FA which i doubt.

offense was strong at the beginning of the season (DD had a few problems as did the blocking) and then it hit a wall. complete opposite of the defense which started slow and finished incredibly.

wildcard spot for the texans next season? well im a hopeful person...we can do it.