PDA

View Full Version : Texans will draft a RB in the 1st or 2nd


Polo
03-30-2009, 11:34 AM
I'm pretty convinced about that at this point, though my mind could change.

Based on some things that Kubiak has said, and how this team has acted in the past I don't see us escaping the first day without the second half of our RB duo in place.

-Kubiak says that he was pleasantly surprised that Slaton held up for as many games as he did and that he doesn't believe that Steve can be counted on to have that kind of iron man season every year.

-Kubes says he needs another starting caliber back

-Supposedly, Kubes wanted to trade up for Deangelo Williams the year we got Demeco

-We have not signed any veteran RB's in free agency

-Most other position have somewhat reliable depth

-Our biggest off-season additions so far have come on the defensive side of the ball; They said they wanted to improve that area of the defense and the first thing they did was fire the coach. They may feel like that alone makes us a much better unit. Greenwood and Weaver are no longer here. Assuming Antonio Smith is alive he should be better than Weaver, and Adibi as a rookie helped spark our defense more than Greenwood did in his entire tenure.


If we roll into the draft as is, I don't see our front office not placing another RB as a priority considering how much importance we've placed on that position in the past and our lack of reliable threats currently on the roster. Of course my mind changes all the time, but right now this is what I'm currently feeling. Thoughts ?

HOU-TEX
03-30-2009, 11:36 AM
Nope, 3rd round or later. :cool:

Maddict5
03-30-2009, 11:41 AM
yeah i think rashad jennings or andre brown in the 3rd/4th looks pretty likely. if wells, donald brown, green or mccoy slip to 48 then maybe

will742
03-30-2009, 11:43 AM
Andre Brown in the 3rd sounds about right.

Polo
03-30-2009, 11:43 AM
Nope, 3rd round or later. :cool:

If the Texans are serious about making their play-off push this year I think the likelihood of that happening as of right now is low.

Last year when we took Slaton in the third we had Ahman Green, Chris Taylor, Darius Walker and Chris Brown. I don't think that their intention was to rely on Slaton who was a third round pick.

We don't have all those bodies and vets who we know can atleast play on the proffesional level. I don't see how they could feel confident about any third round or later pick coming in and being 1b. Though it sounds good in theory, I just don't see that.

HoustonFrog
03-30-2009, 11:45 AM
This guy agrees with you Polo

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/03/nfp-three-round-mock-draft/

46. Houston: Shonn Greene, RB, Iowa

Gives the Texans a nice complement to RB Steve Slaton in the run game

Hervoyel
03-30-2009, 11:47 AM
I agree with HOU-TEX. I don't see a RB before the 3rd. I'm still wondering if we're going to try and grab a Denver cast off or surplus player with a late round pick. It seems like we'd have NFL film on those guys and that Kubiak could find out anything he wanted to know about them via the Shanny connection. Slaton's backup could come out of that pack and I'd be happy.

ChrisG
03-30-2009, 11:48 AM
i hope we do draft an rb 1st round just to stop these threads from popping up every year lol

Polo
03-30-2009, 11:53 AM
This guy agrees with you Polo

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/03/nfp-three-round-mock-draft/

I think that going after Benson when we went after Benson says a lot about the Texans view of the RB position. They don't want to take flyers on guys there when it comes to being an intergal part of the offense. They seem to want guys that have proven they could play in this leauge at a high level.

We could have gotten Benson before he went to the Bengals (during the season when we really didn't have anyone besides Steve), but they didn't really show major interest until after he went to Cincy and had some success...

I just don't see the Texans waiting too long to get that combo sured up when in the past they've shown that they want realiability there. Had we gotten Benson then I would have said we would get a back in the 4th or later...but without any other backs on the roster I'm not seeing it...

The Denver cast-offs are a possibility, but right now I just gotta process the info I'm given...and right now we are scarily thin there...

HOU-TEX
03-30-2009, 12:08 PM
I agree with HOU-TEX. I don't see a RB before the 3rd. I'm still wondering if we're going to try and grab a Denver cast off or surplus player with a late round pick. It seems like we'd have NFL film on those guys and that Kubiak could find out anything he wanted to know about them via the Shanny connection. Slaton's backup could come out of that pack and I'd be happy.

True, there's still a lot of FA acquisitions to be had as well. The Texans will bring in several more FA's and UDFA's before camp.

As far as the comment above about needing to draft a RB on the first day to be serious about the playoffs this season-------> :spit:

TimeKiller
03-30-2009, 12:10 PM
1st round...no, I just can't see them doing it. 2nd-7th okay and I think we may get out of there with 2 picks at RB but I honestly can't imagine them being any higher than 3rd rounders. 2nd as long as it's not Green.

Vinny
03-30-2009, 12:11 PM
I see almost zero chance we draft a back before the 3rd round myself. Not only am I tired of seeing a rotten defense, I think the team is a bit tired of having to score 30 points to win a game also.

pbat488
03-30-2009, 12:15 PM
I'm pretty convinced about that at this point, though my mind could change.

Based on some things that Kubiak has said, and how this team has acted in the past I don't see us escaping the first day without the second half of our RB duo in place.

-Kubiak says that he was pleasantly surprised that Slaton held up for as many games as he did and that he doesn't believe that Steve can be counted on to have that kind of iron man season every year.

-Kubes says he needs another starting caliber back

-Supposedly, Kubes wanted to trade up for Deangelo Williams the year we got Demeco

-We have not signed any veteran RB's in free agency

-Most other position have somewhat reliable depth

-Our biggest off-season additions so far have come on the defensive side of the ball; They said they wanted to improve that area of the defense and the first thing they did was fire the coach. They may feel like that alone makes us a much better unit. Greenwood and Weaver are no longer here. Assuming Antonio Smith is alive he should be better than Weaver, and Adibi as a rookie helped spark our defense more than Greenwood did in his entire tenure.


If we roll into the draft as is, I don't see our front office not placing another RB as a priority considering how much importance we've placed on that position in the past and our lack of reliable threats currently on the roster. Of course my mind changes all the time, but right now this is what I'm currently feeling. Thoughts ?

I just think given the zone-blocking system that we run, that it isn't a necessity to draft a back in the first two rounds. Sure, a highly skilled back that could excel in our system could be the next Clinton Portis (or Steve Slaton hopefully!), but what Denver proved is it doesn't depend so much on the player as it does on the system. With that said, I think it much more likely to focus the first two picks on the defensive side of the ball, and then in the 3rd or later go for a solid RB with good vision and football IQ, and hope he pans out like SS did for us last year.

76Texan
03-30-2009, 12:17 PM
They let Reggie Bush re-enter the draft? :stirpot:

disaacks3
03-30-2009, 12:21 PM
Nope, 3rd round or later. :cool:

I agree with HOU-TEX. I don't see a RB before the 3rd. I'm still wondering if we're going to try and grab a Denver cast off or surplus player with a late round pick. It seems like we'd have NFL film on those guys and that Kubiak could find out anything he wanted to know about them via the Shanny connection. Slaton's backup could come out of that pack and I'd be happy.

I see almost zero chance we draft a back before the 3rd round myself. Not only am I tired of seeing a rotten defense, I think the team is a bit tired of having to score 30 points to win a game also.

I'm with the pack on this one...drafting an RB prior to the 3rd is almost sacriligious for the ZBS scheme.

Polo
03-30-2009, 12:23 PM
As far as the comment above about needing to draft a RB on the first day to be serious about the playoffs this season-------> :spit:

I think it's terribly funny that anyone thinks that adding a 3rd round pick to our backfield will amount to much. Especially when Slaton wasn't supposed to be anything more than a reliever, change of pace, 3rd down back, returner...

I doubt the Texans have as much faith in third round picks becoming starter caliber RB's as most of you guys.

HoustonFrog
03-30-2009, 12:24 PM
As the guy had in the above mock I can see maybe a 2nd rounder if the right guy is there but I think they can get their guy with Gartrell Johnson in the mid to later rounds.

Polo
03-30-2009, 12:27 PM
I just think given the zone-blocking system that we run, that it isn't a necessity to draft a back in the first two rounds. Sure, a highly skilled back that could excel in our system could be the next Clinton Portis (or Steve Slaton hopefully!), but what Denver proved is it doesn't depend so much on the player as it does on the system. With that said, I think it much more likely to focus the first two picks on the defensive side of the ball, and then in the 3rd or later go for a solid RB with good vision and football IQ, and hope he pans out like SS did for us last year.

I think the 1b running back is too important to simply "hope" he pans out.

And I think that any RB will do in the ZBS is way overrated and Kubiak and Co. haven't even demonstrated that they feel this way in any shape or form so I'm not sure why it keeps getting repeated as if it's fact...

I don't see how anyone could still feel this way after we paid so much for Ahman and also brought in Chris Brown to be his back-up....Not sure why anyone thinks the Texans are going to hand the keys to late round picks when they've always seemed to have wanted to avoid that...

Tailgate
03-30-2009, 12:30 PM
I think most would agree a trade back in the first would be ideal if we could still land a Matthews. Now if that does happen, I think an extra pick in the draft could enable us to possibly look at a RB in the second if they are in love with a guy. Thats the only way I see it going down as of now.

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 12:40 PM
I think the 1b running back is too important to simply "hope" he pans out.

And I think that any RB will do in the ZBS is way overrated and Kubiak and Co. haven't even demonstrated that they feel this way in any shape or form so I'm not sure why it keeps getting repeated as if it's fact...

I don't see how anyone could still feel this way after we paid so much for Ahman and also brought in Chris Brown to be his back-up....Not sure why anyone thinks the Texans are going to hand the keys to late round picks when they've always seemed to have wanted to avoid that...

Great points in this thread Polo and I agree with just about everything you have said. I find it funny as well at how cocky some posters on this board have gotten with our running game just because we have Slaton and he worked out for us. NOt a lot of people around the league and experts expected Slaton to be that great in the NFL. Like GP pointed out in another thread in that Slaton was like Kubiak's last quarter in a slot machine. Lol! I thought that was a great analogy. People seem to foget how bad this offense was under Kubiak's philosophy of wanting to constantly pound the ball and you don't even have a good RB to do it. If we don't have a good running game next season we'll go nowhere.

What if Slaton gets hurt for a significant amount of time? Our offense will drop off a lot. The biggest reason why our offense was able to go up and down the field a lot more last season was because of the improved running attack from Slaton. In Kubiak's first two seasons our rushing game was awful behind his arrogance of the ZBS. He wasn't able to implement all of that well with those horrible backs we had and we suffered because of it. Last year we suffered from the red zone woes as well, and a stronger bruising back is pretty essential in short yardage situations. It's good to have both, and with the way that RB's get hurt so easily now days, you want to have two productive ones.

At first I wanted our first few picks to be mainly defense, but I think Wells would make our offense extremely dynamic and we could do so much with him and Slaton paired together. I also wouldn't mind getting Shonn Greene with a traded down first round pick or a second round pick but I doubt he'll be there with our 2nd rounder.

Hervoyel
03-30-2009, 12:57 PM
I'm with the pack on this one...drafting an RB prior to the 3rd is almost sacriligious for the ZBS scheme.


Don't get me wrong on this. If we had the luxury of being able to grab a monster back in the first round and he was there I'd be thrilled and I think Kubiak and Smith would do it too. I really do.

I just know that we have much bigger fish to fry than a first day RB. With our defense it would be a crime to use a first day pick on an offensive player unless he was a verifiable once in a lifetime player. I don't see that guy in this draft. If he's in there then he's a sleeper.

pbat488
03-30-2009, 12:58 PM
Great points in this thread Polo and I agree with just about everything you have said. I find it funny as well at how cocky some posters on this board have gotten with our running game just because we have Slaton and he worked out for us. NOt a lot of people around the league and experts expected Slaton to be that great in the NFL. Like GP pointed out in another thread in that Slaton was like Kubiak's last quarter in a slot machine. Lol! I thought that was a great analogy. People seem to foget how bad this offense was under Kubiak's philosophy of wanting to constantly pound the ball and you don't even have a good RB to do it. If we don't have a good running game next season we'll go nowhere.

What if Slaton gets hurt for a significant amount of time? Our offense will drop off a lot. The biggest reason why our offense was able to go up and down the field a lot more last season was because of the improved running attack from Slaton. In Kubiak's first two seasons our rushing game was awful behind his arrogance of the ZBS. He wasn't able to implement all of that well with those horrible backs we had and we suffered because of it. Last year we suffered from the red zone woes as well, and a stronger bruising back is pretty essential in short yardage situations. It's good to have both, and with the way that RB's get hurt so easily now days, you want to have two productive ones.

At first I wanted our first few picks to be mainly defense, but I think Wells would make our offense extremely dynamic and we could do so much with him and Slaton paired together. I also wouldn't mind getting Shonn Greene with a traded down first round pick or a second round pick but I doubt he'll be there with our 2nd rounder.

I understand your point that we lucked out on Slaton emerging as an absolute beast when he was supposed to be a 3rd down guy, but I don't think it's cocky to assume we can find a late round RB and he can also do big things. We have the same running attack Denver used for years and they made big time contributors out of Terrell Davis (6th I think), Olandis Gary, and Mike Anderson from Utah to name a few, and those three were taken in the 4th or later. While they might not of had the staying power we hope for, they produced in the system and right now as long as someone can produce and spell Slaton in some games, I would take that.

CloakNNNdagger
03-30-2009, 01:21 PM
Maneuvering a trade for Hillis with Broncs would answer the bell.

Also, I wouldn't have a problem going all out for Beanie Wells, at least in the second round, if he's still there. My question is how Wells does as a receiver and pass block, since his system really never relied on this aspect of his play, and when they did on the latter, he showed inconsistency. However, that can be coached up. What can't be coached is brute strength. Despite injury concerns, no one can question his toughness and willingness to play through pain. The standout of his play is his brute "locomotive" strength.........and his fearsome STIFF ARM weapon..................just watch this VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f718Ei0TAck).

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 01:24 PM
I understand your point that we lucked out on Slaton emerging as an absolute beast when he was supposed to be a 3rd down guy, but I don't think it's cocky to assume we can find a late round RB and he can also do big things. We have the same running attack Denver used for years and they made big time contributors out of Terrell Davis (6th I think), Olandis Gary, and Mike Anderson from Utah to name a few, and those three were taken in the 4th or later. While they might not of had the staying power we hope for, they produced in the system and right now as long as someone can produce and spell Slaton in some games, I would take that.

Good points and I can't really argue with that, but I don't think any team should fall into that philosophy that they can just easily pick some RB in any season they want and find a real productive one. It happens quite often, but it's not as easy as some people make it out to be. Denver did real well for a stretch of a few seasons and all but I liked their running game a lot better when Portis was there because he was still a lot more consistent and I think that it hurt Denver in the long run because they were just swapping RB's in and out every season. I really liked the Titans running game last year with White bruising away for long possessions and TD carries and Johnson making all sorts of plays like Slaton. Their running game was just as important as that top defense they had last year.

With a guy like Wells, the things we can do are just so much more because of the contrast between both guys sort of like how NY had with Jacobs and Bradshaw even though Bradshaw was 3rd string. People will see how good BRadshaw is this season since he'll be getting a lot more carries.

BigBull17
03-30-2009, 01:25 PM
I'm with the pack on this one...drafting an RB prior to the 3rd is almost sacriligious for the ZBS scheme.

And with as many holes as we have everywhere else.

HOU-TEX
03-30-2009, 01:27 PM
I think it's terribly funny that anyone thinks that adding a 3rd round pick to our backfield will amount to much. Especially when Slaton wasn't supposed to be anything more than a reliever, change of pace, 3rd down back, returner...

I doubt the Texans have as much faith in third round picks becoming starter caliber RB's as most of you guys.

Well, I find it terribly funny that anyone would think that we'd have to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick on a RB in order to contend for a playoff spot.

Considering the history of our Head Coach and Oline coach I think it's obvious they have had faith in 2nd day RB's.

I suppose we can agree to disagree, but I think your logic is flawed.

badboy
03-30-2009, 01:28 PM
I think Kubes has said he wants another back to take some of the load off Slaton. However, there are other needs that should be addressed first especially as many backs similar to Slaton should be available in lower rounds. The bad news imo only 3 "power backs" that can take load off Slaton and still score in Red Zone exist after Wells. Jennings 6'1" 231 but small college (real deal), Shonn Greene 5'1" 227 who worked his way back to 2nd round talk with pro day 40 @4.55 and Gartrell Johnson.

Others intriguing to me are Andre Brown as 4.49 combine and he is 6'0 224. He only ran for 700 yards but had 28 receptions for 305 yds. Broke foot in October and did little after. Not clear on his health now.

I watched Gartrell play and he runs like a dump truck & appears to have "football speed." 1500+yards 12 TDs 32 receptions for 300 yds. I really like this young man. But there are others to watch such as Javarris Williams 5'10" 223 and 4.52 40.

On my board barring a trade down, I have Cedric Peerman 5'10" 216( may have lost 5lbs)
4.45 combine in 5th round and follow up with Gartrell Johnson 5'10 219lbs in 6th.
On my trade down board I have Jennings with my 1st 3rd round as he is just too good to pass up. We have an extra 3rd coming to us in a trade down.

rmartin65
03-30-2009, 01:55 PM
But there are others to watch such as Javarris Williams 5'10" 223 and 4.52 40.


I have to stop this one. Williams looks good, but upon further review I do not like him. He has very stiff hips, and had the benefit of running behind one of the better FCS lines.

pbat488
03-30-2009, 02:26 PM
Good points and I can't really argue with that, but I don't think any team should fall into that philosophy that they can just easily pick some RB in any season they want and find a real productive one. It happens quite often, but it's not as easy as some people make it out to be. Denver did real well for a stretch of a few seasons and all but I liked their running game a lot better when Portis was there because he was still a lot more consistent and I think that it hurt Denver in the long run because they were just swapping RB's in and out every season. I really liked the Titans running game last year with White bruising away for long possessions and TD carries and Johnson making all sorts of plays like Slaton. Their running game was just as important as that top defense they had last year.

With a guy like Wells, the things we can do are just so much more because of the contrast between both guys sort of like how NY had with Jacobs and Bradshaw even though Bradshaw was 3rd string. People will see how good BRadshaw is this season since he'll be getting a lot more carries.

Yeah, that stuff is all true. I guess I just don't want them to select a RB in the first round at least when we have so many more holes on defense and it's just influencing my thought process about the whole thing.

Vinny
03-30-2009, 02:30 PM
I think that Wells/Slaton could end up as one of the finest tandems in the NFL if we picked BW, but we'd still have to score 30 points on a regular basis to beat teams...still a recipe for .500 if you ask me.

TimeKiller
03-30-2009, 02:39 PM
I think that Wells/Slaton could end up as one of the finest tandems in the NFL if we picked BW, but we'd still have to score 30 points on a regular basis to beat teams...still a recipe for .500 if you ask me.

I couldn't agree more.

bah007
03-30-2009, 02:42 PM
This is a very deep class for RBs. The deepest one in a while if you ask me.

We can still get a very good back in the 3rd or 4th this year.

We have bigger fish to fry than backup RB. That's why I think we wait a few rounds.

WolverineFan
03-30-2009, 02:43 PM
This is a very deep class for RBs. The deepest one in a while if you ask me.

We can still get a very good back in the 3rd or 4th this year.

We have bigger fish to fry than backup RB. That's why I think we wait a few rounds.

I agree. While I would be excited about the prospect of having a top notch RB paired up with Slaton, it would not really help us win more games. We NEED defensive help and we need to get it early, RB can wait until the 4th.

Ole Miss Texan
03-30-2009, 02:54 PM
I'd be a big fan of acquiring Peyton Hillis from the Broncos.

I don't really want a RB at #15. If we go RB in the 1st, I'd prefer we trade down a bit into the early 20's. I'd take Donald Brown over any other RB in this draft.

MojoMan
03-30-2009, 02:55 PM
I think it's terribly funny that anyone thinks that adding a 3rd round pick to our backfield will amount to much. Especially when Slaton wasn't supposed to be anything more than a reliever, change of pace, 3rd down back, returner...

I doubt the Texans have as much faith in third round picks becoming starter caliber RB's as most of you guys.

Getting a 1b Running back is a very high priority for the Houston Texans during the upcoming draft. However, it should be remembered that Slaton was a third round pick. As a result of this and that the 2009 appears to be a deep draft for RB's, the coaches are probably feeling pretty good about getting a solid 1b RB in the third round.

In my opinion, the Texans should draft a RB with their third round pick. That is the optimal place in this draft for the Texans to pick up an RB to compliment and compete with Steve Slaton.

Goatcheese
03-30-2009, 02:56 PM
I think that Wells/Slaton could end up as one of the finest tandems in the NFL if we picked BW, but we'd still have to score 30 points on a regular basis to beat teams...still a recipe for .500 if you ask me.

I don't think our defensive talent is as bad as everyone claims. They just had trouble with injuries in '08 that kept our starters either off the field completely, or greatly hampered.

D-Rob clearly wasn't 100%
Diles looked like the real thing before breaking his leg
Adibi has a lot of potential, and was a guy I had a 2nd round grade on. I don't see any reason to give up on him
Okoye is just turning 22, and played well in the last quarter of the season once his ankle was better.
Ryans was slowed with nagging injuries
Williams had a shoulder injury part of the season

Pick the six best offensive players on our team, and knock them out or slow them down with injuries, then tell me we're still a good offense.

Right now we have:

RDE Williams
NT ????
DT Okoye
LDE Smith
WIL Adibi
MLB Ryans
SAM Diles
LCB Reeves
RCB D-Rob
FS Wilson
SS Ferguson

I think other than NT and SS that's a pretty solid unit with everybody on the field at once. The positions we need help at on defense don't have anybody that looks like the 15th pick.

The 2nd round is deep with a lot of good safety prospects that could step in and be impact players right away, which leaves us looking for a NT, and depth to sure up a unit who's health isn't.

Texans34Life
03-30-2009, 02:59 PM
I'm pretty convinced about that at this point, though my mind could change.

Based on some things that Kubiak has said, and how this team has acted in the past I don't see us escaping the first day without the second half of our RB duo in place.

-Kubiak says that he was pleasantly surprised that Slaton held up for as many games as he did and that he doesn't believe that Steve can be counted on to have that kind of iron man season every year.

-Kubes says he needs another starting caliber back

-Supposedly, Kubes wanted to trade up for Deangelo Williams the year we got Demeco

-We have not signed any veteran RB's in free agency

-Most other position have somewhat reliable depth

-Our biggest off-season additions so far have come on the defensive side of the ball; They said they wanted to improve that area of the defense and the first thing they did was fire the coach. They may feel like that alone makes us a much better unit. Greenwood and Weaver are no longer here. Assuming Antonio Smith is alive he should be better than Weaver, and Adibi as a rookie helped spark our defense more than Greenwood did in his entire tenure.


If we roll into the draft as is, I don't see our front office not placing another RB as a priority considering how much importance we've placed on that position in the past and our lack of reliable threats currently on the roster. Of course my mind changes all the time, but right now this is what I'm currently feeling. Thoughts ?

Looks like you're drinking Pat Kirwan's koolaid. There is no way Denver South is going for a RB in the 1st round.

ChampionTexan
03-30-2009, 03:00 PM
The OP referenced the fact that Kubiak was willing to trade up in '06 to draft DeAngelo Williams in round one. That's consistent with everything I've ever heard.

Two things in regard to that draft.


Kubiak was taking over a team who's two leading rushers the previous year were Dominick Williams/Davis, and Jonathan Wells. Williams/Davis was dealing with a knee injury, and Wells was average at best. Neither one played another down in the NFL after the '05 season.

Once he was unable to trade up and get Deangelo Williams, Kubiak waited until round 6 to take a back, making Wali Lundy the first RB drafted in the Kubiak era (with Slaton being the only other one).


Last year, with RB higher on most people's list of Texans needs than it currently is, the Texans passed on Rashard Mendenhall, Felix Jones and Chris Johnson in order to trade down to the 26th pick.

One thing that looks to be proven by Kubiak's track record, is that he's not afraid to pass on a RB if he doesn't think he'll fit here - regardless of conventional wisdom. That also probably means he woudn't be afraid to take one high if he's confident of the value, but that takes a pretty special back. My guess is we don't go RB until round 3, with round 4 being a better possibility than round 2.

Vinny
03-30-2009, 03:14 PM
I don't think our defensive talent is as bad as everyone claims. They just had trouble with injuries in '08 that kept our starters either off the field completely, or greatly hampered.
I think it was pretty bad since we were bad in three areas. Stopping the run, getting after the QB and had one of the weakest starting secondary of any team in the league. Our linebackers are smallish and our Tackles were pushed around all season. Dan Cody has a similar playing style as our other tackles too so he's no help. The End we picked up gets a ton of money to man the strong side and hasn't been known as a sackmaster. You are more optimistic than I am about our talent.

Polo
03-30-2009, 03:21 PM
Last year, with RB higher on most people's list of Texans needs than it currently is, the Texans passed on Rashard Mendenhall, Felix Jones and Chris Johnson in order to trade down to the 26th pick.


To me this is inaccurate.

Last year going into the draft we had Chris Brown, Ahman, Chris Taylor and Darius Walker...

Texans had a fair bit of money tied into that position with Ahman.

Slaton was picked as a supplement type player. After everyone got hurt he got his chance and killed it.

There is no way Kubes passes on those earlier backs if he didn't think that one of the guys currently on the roster would be able to carry the load.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 03:24 PM
This is a very deep class for RBs. The deepest one in a while if you ask me.

We can still get a very good back in the 3rd or 4th this year.

We have bigger fish to fry than backup RB. That's why I think we wait a few rounds.

While I agree we'll be able to get a back in the mid rounds, and that's where we will target one...(sorry Polo. RBs aren't like other positions, it's a cheap position and the talent difference between a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd rounder isn't that big and if we do draft a back in the mid rounds you shouldn't just disregard him because he's a 3rd rounder. Just look at the most successful backs in our history....D.D. and Steve Slaton. This team isn't even looking for a #1 back, just a 5-10 carry back......no 1st or 2nd round picks are going to be spent on a RB in this draft.)

....how can this be "the deepest RB class in a while". Last year's class was one of the deepest in the history of the NFL.

Vinny
03-30-2009, 03:26 PM
While I agree we'll be able to get a back in the mid rounds, how can this be "the deepest RB class in a while". Last year's class was one of the deepest in the history of the NFL.just further proof that you can get a back pretty much any year you want to reach down and make it a priority.

Polo
03-30-2009, 03:30 PM
I don't understand what hard to fathom about the Texans taking a 1st day RB.

What defensive player slated to be around when we're picking wows you to the point where you think they can come in and dramatically improve our defense? I'm not even convinced that there is a 1st round defensive player that we could pick that would come in a even start...

If you have a chance to get one of the top RB's and you know that you are going to need, and often use that player I don't see what's so outrageous about taking one early...

Polo
03-30-2009, 03:32 PM
D.D. and Steve Slaton. This team isn't even looking for a #1 back, just a 5-10 carry back....

Incorrect.

If you listen to Kubiaks comments on the subject then I think you'd rethink that statement.

He talks about how lucky they were that Steve held up for the whole season and he says that they want a starting caliber player for that position because he's not gonna expect for Slaton to do that again. And I think he even said that this 1b RB might play more than Slaton on some days depending on match-ups and how the games go...Says they don't want a back-up, but rather another starter...

If the Texans were just resigned to taking a mid round back, or some plug and play guy I highly doubt that they ever go after Benson. Why pay that guy when you can just get your own guy in the third or fourth...

And what defensive players that should be available where we pick just wow you guys ?

If RB is the BPA I don't see anyway we pass that guy considering our situation and what Kubes has said and what this franchise has done.

Kubes has never intended on just handing a late round pick a position in their rookie season, so I don't know why he'd start now. Unless there is someone back there that they really like I don't see that happening...

Goatcheese
03-30-2009, 03:33 PM
Looks like you're drinking Pat Kirwan's koolaid. There is no way Denver South is going for a RB in the 1st round.

Saying our defense is being dogged unfairly is drinking kool-aid? Kubiak is not Shanny. He does not have the same draft strategy, no matter how many, or how often fans parrot it.

The OP referenced the fact that Kubiak was willing to trade up in '06 to draft DeAngelo Williams in round one. That's consistent with everything I've ever heard.

Two things in regard to that draft.


Kubiak was taking over a team who's two leading rushers the previous year were Dominick Williams/Davis, and Jonathan Wells. Williams/Davis was dealing with a knee injury, and Wells was average at best. Neither one played another down in the NFL after the '05 season.

Once he was unable to trade up and get Deangelo Williams, Kubiak waited until round 6 to take a back, making Wali Lundy the first RB drafted in the Kubiak era (with Slaton being the only other one).


Last year, with RB higher on most people's list of Texans needs than it currently is, the Texans passed on Rashard Mendenhall, Felix Jones and Chris Johnson in order to trade down to the 26th pick.

One thing that looks to be proven by Kubiak's track record, is that he's not afraid to pass on a RB if he doesn't think he'll fit here - regardless of conventional wisdom. That also probably means he woudn't be afraid to take one high if he's confident of the value, but that takes a pretty special back. My guess is we don't go RB until round 3, with round 4 being a better possibility than round 2.

They didn't pass on any of those guys. They got a trade offer they liked, and none of those guys were there when we picked.

I think it was pretty bad since we were bad in three areas. Stopping the run, getting after the QB and had one of the weakest starting secondary of any team in the league. Our linebackers are smallish and our Tackles were pushed around all season. Dan Cody has a similar playing style as our other tackles too so he's no help. The End we picked up gets a ton of money to man the strong side and hasn't been known as a sackmaster. You are more optimistic than I am about our talent.

You seem to be missing where half the defense, the better half at that, missed a lot of time, or were hampered by injuries. If all of our returning starters are healthy, plus Smith, and a 2nd round safety I think it's a good unit, that's pretty much middle of the road. Obviously if you lose half your defensive starters for long stretches it's not going to be great.

They're switching from the terrible scheme they ran last year, that will put guys like Okoye in better position to play to their strengths. Bush wants to have a fast attacking defense that makes big plays. They're not going to stuff the run, and there's nobody at 15 that's going to change that. I see signs that they will be an average defense without spending 8 draft picks on defense.

What do you think our offense would have looked like if Schaub, Johnson, Winston, Walter, Daniels and Slaton had missed, or been slowed for 6-10 games each last season? I'm guessing somewhere around 30.

Texan4Ever
03-30-2009, 03:33 PM
I don't understand what hard to fathom about the Texans taking a 1st day RB.
What defensive player slated to be around when we're picking wows you to the point where you think they can come in and dramatically improve our defense? I'm not even convinced that there is a 1st round defensive player that we could pick that would come in a even start...

If you have a chance to get one of the top RB's and you know that you are going to need, and often use that player I don't see what's so outrageous about taking one early...



Its because our D ranked 22nd in the league and gives up more points then our offense can score at times.

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 03:40 PM
Its because our D ranked 22nd in the league and gives up more points then our offense can score at times.

Yes, but picking a RB in the first or the 2nd isn't exactly going to stop us from being able to get a ton of defensive talent. Let's just say if we did pickup a RB in the first round which I don't think we will, but we would still have the rest of the draft that we could pretty much devote to defense. It would only be one pick where we're getting a freaking stud obviously. We could still get some really good players in other rounds that could help us on D.

Polo
03-30-2009, 03:42 PM
Its because our D ranked 22nd in the league and gives up more points then our offense can score at times.

Using that logic we would have picked Reggie Bush over Mario Williams.

Afterall...How dare we take a DE when we had just picked up a high priced one in Free Agency and our offense was so terrible.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 03:43 PM
I don't understand what hard to fathom about the Texans taking a 1st day RB.

What defensive player slated to be around when we're picking wows you to the point where you think they can come in and dramatically improve our defense? I'm not even convinced that there is a 1st round defensive player that we could pick that would come in a even start...

If you have a chance to get one of the top RB's and you know that you are going to need, and often use that player I don't see what's so outrageous about taking one early...

Again...

RBs aren't like other positions, it's a cheap position and the talent difference between a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd rounder isn't that big and if we do draft a back in the mid rounds you shouldn't just disregard him because he's a 3rd rounder. Just look at the most successful backs in our history....D.D. and Steve Slaton. This team isn't even looking for a #1 back, just a 5-10 carry back.

There isn't even a flat out clear cut #1 back in this draft, while Wells is very talented he also has his faults. He's struggled with injuries last season and I know Ohio State fans that were upset with him, but regardless of that.

Like I said RBs aren't like other positions....the reason why Houston is going to draft defensive players early is, because almost always you have to draft defensive players early. Top quality defensive players are very hard to come by in the draft...they fly off the board like hot cakes and if you're going to get quality defensive players out of the draft you almost always have to get them in the first 3 rounds of the draft. Look at Xaiver Adibi last season...when healthy he was making plays sideline to sideline...we got him in the 4th, but the moment we took him Mike Mayock (possibly the best draft guru out there) instantly knew he was a still and said should've gone much earlier.

RBs aren't like this, every single year there are backs that come in and make a instant impact that are taken extremely low or not even drafted at all. It's all about value and you can go to the "dollar store" and pick up a capable back. Houston isn't looking for a star runner, they feel they already got that guy....their just looking for a support character, a side kick for Slaton. They can easily fill that role with a 4th rounder if they have to.

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 03:45 PM
Afterall...How dare we take a DE when we had just picked up a high priced one in Free Agency and our offense was so terrible.

Good point. We sure did.

Vinny
03-30-2009, 03:45 PM
You seem to be missing where half the defense, the better half at that, missed a lot of time, or were hampered by injuries. If all of our returning starters are healthy, plus Smith, and a 2nd round safety I think it's a good unit, that's pretty much middle of the road. Obviously if you lose half your defensive starters for long stretches it's not going to be great.

They're switching from the terrible scheme they ran last year, that will put guys like Okoye in better position to play to their strengths. Bush wants to have a fast attacking defense that makes big plays. They're not going to stuff the run, and there's nobody at 15 that's going to change that. I see signs that they will be an average defense without spending 8 draft picks on defense.

What do you think our offense would have looked like if Schaub, Johnson, Winston, Walter, Daniels and Slaton had missed, or been slowed for 6-10 games each last season? I'm guessing somewhere around 30.
I'm not overlooking anything. TJ and Okoye get pushed around quite a bit and being healthy doesn't change that. Drob didn't play well and may not ever play well again. All the rest of our DB's look like nickel backs. Our linebackers are still smallish and slowish outside of Adibi who stands at smallish without the slowish. Mario should be on the strong side and we SHOULD be looking for a linebacker a DB that has starting potential and an edge rusher...hopefully we find one like the Giants did with Tuck a few years ago. The defense has had long standing problems that have not been resolved since Kubiak has taken over and if he doesn't address them he will find himself as a highly sought after OC within a few years if he doesn't inject more talent into this defense.

badboy
03-30-2009, 03:45 PM
I think it's terribly funny that anyone thinks that adding a 3rd round pick to our backfield will amount to much. Especially when Slaton wasn't supposed to be anything more than a reliever, change of pace, 3rd down back, returner...

I doubt the Texans have as much faith in third round picks becoming starter caliber RB's as most of you guys.Actually many of the pre-season mocks had Slaton going in late first round. I was very against his selection in first two rounds but delighted when we got him with our 2nd pick in 3rd as part of Brown trade down. Don't forget DDW that was a 4th round I believe and did very well. Speaking of well, Johnathan Wells did ok for a while too.

I think your position is we need another strong candidate to ease Slaton attempts back. I am for that and if they select Wells in first, I won't scream as Smith thinks that is best move. I think many of us are saying that an Rb can be pcik up later with very good credentials to accomplish what you want.

badboy
03-30-2009, 03:46 PM
I have to stop this one. Williams looks good, but upon further review I do not like him. He has very stiff hips, and had the benefit of running behind one of the better FCS lines.But would you give a 6th or 7th if you do not get a back earlier?

Polo
03-30-2009, 03:48 PM
I'm just not seeing how the defensive players slated to be around when we pick add more value than a really good back-up RB would. I can't think of one defensive player that would come in and be a sure fire starter.

Atleast if you take a a back in the first round you know that they are starting caliber.

Someone please convince me that Clay Matthews would be a better pick than Beenie Wells. I am seriously listening. I want to be convinced.

Polo
03-30-2009, 03:50 PM
Again...



There isn't even a flat out clear cut #1 back in this draft, while Wells is very talented he also has his fualts. He's struggled with injuries last season and I know Ohio State fans were upset with him, but regardless of that.

Like I said RBs aren't like other positions....the reason why Houston is going to draft defensive players early is, because almost always you have to draft defensive players early. Top quality defensive players are very hard to come by in the draft...they fly off the board like hot cakes and if you're going to get quality defensive players out of the draft you almost always have to get them in the first 3 rounds of the draft. Look at Xaiver Adibi last season...when healthy he was making plays sideline to sideline...we got him in the 4th, but the moment we took him Mike Mayock (possibly the best draft guru out there) instantly new he was a still and should've gone much earlier.

RBs aren't like this, every single year there are backs that come in and make a instant impact that are taken extremely low or not even drafted at all. It's all about value and you can go to the "dollar store" and pick up a cabaple back. Houston isn't looking for a star runner, they feel they already got that guy....their just looking for a support character, a side kick for Slaton. They can easily fill that role with a 4th rounder if they have to.

I don't get into the value of positions talk and where they should be drafted. That stuff means nothing to me.

As our team is currently constructed, what defensive player that is slated to be around adds more value to our team than a starting caliber RB?

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 03:52 PM
I'm just not seeing how the defensive players slated to be around when we pick add more value than a really good back-up RB would. I can't think of one defensive player that would come in and be a sure fire starter.

Atleast if you take a a back in the first round you know that they are starting caliber.

Someone please convince me that Clay Matthews would be a better pick than Beenie Wells. I am seriously listening. I want to be convinced.

I will hate it if we take Mathews. He isn't anywhere near the calibur player at his position that Wells is at his.

Dapper
03-30-2009, 03:54 PM
excuse me, but isn't chris brown still on the payroll?

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 03:55 PM
Incorrect.

If you listen to Kubiaks comments on the subject then I think you'd rethink that statement.

He talks about how lucky they were that Steve held up for the whole season and he says that they want a starting caliber player for that position because he's not gonna expect for Slaton to do that again. And I think he even said that this 1b RB might play more than Slaton on some days depending on match-ups and how the games go...Says they don't want a back-up, but rather another starter...

If the Texans were just resigned to taking a mid round back, or some plug and play guy I highly doubt that they ever go after Benson. Why pay that guy when you can just get your own guy in the third or fourth...

First of all, the thing I think that's going on here is you're falling victim to the "Pre-draft smoke screen". Do you honestly think Kubiak is going to come out and say he's targeting a defensive player? Even though most teams pretty much already have them pegged to take one, nobody was happier than Kubiak and Smith than when they saw Todd McShay (who's a idiot BTW, Mayock is the best now) slot them to take Sanchez or Wells.

I've already seen and read those comments.....they're absolutely crap. Denver (which is now Kubiak and Gibbs) don't draft RBs high (I know Kubiak tried with DeAngelo Williams, but things were more desperate then), especially when they just had a 23 year old back who through up 1200+ yards rushing.

There is one golden rule to follow when leading up to the draft.....believe nothing you hear, so when you hear Kubiak talk about taking a RB early don't believe it.


And what defensive players that should be available where we pick just wow you guys?

One of the OLBers would be nice, but even if they don't decide to go defense, I don't even think a #2 RB is our biggest need on the offensive side of the ball.......A starting caliber center is. I'd like to see us draft one of those before RB.

If RB is the BPA I don't see anyway we pass that guy considering our situation and what Kubes has said and what this franchise has done.

Again read above (smoke screen) and what exactly "has this franchise done"? Last year we were WAY MORE desperate at the RB position and we waited all the way until the middle of the 3rd round to take one.

Kubes has never intended on just handing a late round pick a position in their rookie season, so I don't know why he'd start now.

Why not? Gibbs and Kubiak have done just that throughout their coaching careers???

dalemurphy
03-30-2009, 03:56 PM
I see almost zero chance we draft a back before the 3rd round myself. Not only am I tired of seeing a rotten defense, I think the team is a bit tired of having to score 30 points to win a game also.

But that reality has nothing to do with how we've allocated our draft picks. 5 of the last 6 first round picks have been on defense, Demeco was the 1st pick of the 2nd round, Antonio Smith and Anthony Weaver are the two largest FA contracts handed out over the past 4 seasons. Clearly, the reason our defense sucks is not because we're not spending high picks on it.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 03:57 PM
I don't get into the value of positions talk and where they should be drafted. That stuff means nothing to me.

As our team is currently constructed, what defensive player that is slated to be around adds more value to our team than a starting caliber RB?

Well since we already "HAVE A STARTING CALIBER RB" Just about any defensive player that upgrades a position on defense will have more value to this team than a top rated RB

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 03:58 PM
But that reality has nothing to do with how we've allocated our draft picks. 5 of the last 6 first round picks have been on defense, Demeco was the 1st pick of the 2nd round, Antonio Smith and Anthony Weaver are the two largest FA contracts handed out over the past 4 seasons. Clearly, the reason our defense sucks is not because we're not spending high picks on it.

Yes, this is true......coaching has a big factor in this as well, which is why we pretty much fired the entire staff. Hopefully that fixes that part of the problem.

Polo
03-30-2009, 03:59 PM
I'd rather solidify our offensive unit than to pick a defensive player that leaves me feeling kind of bleh...

This all comes down to one simple thing after I thought about it.

There really isn't a defensive player that I can think of (of course the team has more insight) that adds more value to our team as it is currently constructed than another starting caliber RB.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 04:01 PM
I'd rather solidify our offensive unit than to pick a defensive player that leaves me feeling kind of bleh...

This all comes down to one simple thing after I thought about it.

There really isn't a defensive player that I can think of (of course the team has more insight) that adds more value to our team as it is currently constructed than another starting caliber RB.

Wow, I didn't know Houston fielded a top notch defense last season..(there isn't one single layer of our defense that can't be upgraded through this draft). I do know they fielded a top notch offense though hmm.

badboy
03-30-2009, 04:03 PM
I'm just not seeing how the defensive players slated to be around when we pick add more value than a really good back-up RB would. I can't think of one defensive player that would come in and be a sure fire starter.
Atleast if you take a a back in the first round you know that they are starting caliber.

Someone please convince me that Clay Matthews would be a better pick than Beenie Wells. I am seriously listening. I want to be convinced.

No player is a sure fire stater until he is. Jenkins should be able to win a starter spot at either CB or FS (where I would have him). I think Ron Brace NT could beat out TJ; DE Robert Ayers could beat out our new FA DE. I think Delmas or Rashad Johnson FSs could possibly beat out Ferguson. I think CB Vontae Davis could beat out Dunta or Reeves. Could, I said.

Texans_Chick
03-30-2009, 04:04 PM
Well since we already "HAVE A STARTING CALIBER RB" Just about any defensive player that upgrades a position on defense will have more value to this team than a top rated RB

We were totally lucky that Steve Slaton got through the end of that season. Even so, there were game plans that they used to protect him when he was dinged up more than the coaches were letting on at first. Game plans where the Texans barely ran at all.

You can either have to protect your one good RB, or you can get a guy who can give Slaton a breather and replace him if he gets hurt enough he has to sit, which happens a lot in the league.

Getting a dependable running game clearly helps your offense and helps your defense by putting points on the board and keeping them off the damn field.

I'm currently thinking, linebacker in the first, running back in the second. Currently, the running backs I think will be available in the second are more intriguing from an immediate impact perspective than any of the defensive candidates. Lots of the CBs available seem like more of the same project types we are already developing on the roster.

Goatcheese
03-30-2009, 04:05 PM
I'm not overlooking anything. TJ and Okoye get pushed around quite a bit and being healthy doesn't change that.

In the new scheme they're not going to be asked to hold the line. They're going to be told to get through it and make a tackle.

Drob didn't play well and may not ever play well again. All the rest of our DB's look like nickel backs.

D-Rob remains a mystery, but I think he's going to come back at or near full potential. Reeves is a solid corner as long as he's protected over the top. Bennet and Molden have huge upside. Wilson played well at FS last year, and I think we're almost certain to snag one of the half dozen safeties that are graded in the 2nd/3rd round to play SS.

Our linebackers are still smallish and slowish outside of Adibi who stands at smallish without the slowish.

Yes, and none of the linebackers in this draft are any faster. Cushing is the same speed and weight as Diles, so all you're getting is height. Mathews is marginally faster, but can't cover to save his life. So who are you looking to draft that is going to change the defense?

Mario should be on the strong side and we SHOULD be looking for a linebacker a DB that has starting potential and an edge rusher...hopefully we find one like the Giants did with Tuck a few years ago.

Mario is a better pass rusher than anybody in this draft. There's no reason to change what's working for him.

I don't see any linebackers in this draft, save Curry and Laurinaitis who would be upgrades. If you want to go that route, I'm fine with it, but I don't want some crappy USC turd who can't play on third down.

I'm all for Jenkins at 15, or even a trade up infront of the Aints to grab him. I love the dude, and have him way above Wells on my wish list. I don't think he's getting out of the top 10 though. .06 seconds in gym shorts doesn't erase everything he did in college.


The defense has had long standing problems that have not been resolved since Kubiak has taken over and if he doesn't address them he will find himself as a highly sought after OC within a few years if he doesn't inject more talent into this defense.

The defense has talent. It just wasn't healthy last season. When your 6 best players miss a lot of time, or are slowed with injuries your defense is going to flat out suck.

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 04:08 PM
We were totally lucky that Steve Slaton got through the end of that season. Even so, there were game plans that they used to protect him when he was dinged up more than the coaches were letting on at first. Game plans where the Texans barely ran at all.

You can either have to protect your one good RB, or you can get a guy who can give Slaton a breather and replace him if he gets hurt enough he has to sit, which happens a lot in the league.

Getting a dependable running game clearly helps your offense and helps your defense by putting points on the board and keeping them off the damn field.

I'm currently thinking, linebacker in the first, running back in the second. Currently, the running backs I think will be available in the second are more intriguing from an immediate impact perspective than any of the defensive candidates. Lots of the CBs available seem like more of the same project types we are already developing on the roster.

Good post TC.


I think a lot of people are also forgetting that getting another RB is not just getting a back up to Slaton. It's getting a guy that would be really good and provide strengths at RB that Slaton doesn't completely have. We would be going after a guy who is bigger and stronger and better in short yard situations and that could be better for grinding out longer possessions on offense. It's not like we're just drafting a back up. We would be drafting a back up AND a guy who could bring something different to the table that Slaton currently doesn't have.

Ole Miss Texan
03-30-2009, 04:09 PM
I'd be careful when talking about how certain players are ranked (ie there is not a clear cut #1 RB in this class). All we have to care about is if there is a clear cut #1 back for the Texans. That we don't know... what draftniks think is fairly useless, what Kubiak/Smith think is important.

It will be interesting to see if a defensive players falls to us (I'd take Malcolm Jenkins). If the talent just isn't there at 15 on 'D' and we can't find a suitable trade down, I'd suspect they'd take an offensive player if he's rated that much higher than the defense.

I'd like Michael Oher, Donald Brown or maybe Jeremy Maclin. Problem with Maclin now though is that we'd be adding another expensive WR. I may not select him strictly due to the $'s tied up in the WR unit.

Polo
03-30-2009, 04:09 PM
No player is a sure fire stater until he is. Jenkins should be able to win a starter spot at either CB or FS (where I would have him). I think Ron Brace NT could beat out TJ; DE Robert Ayers could beat out our new FA DE. I think Delmas or Rashad Johnson FSs could possibly beat out Ferguson. I think CB Vontae Davis could beat out Dunta or Reeves. Could, I said.

If Jenkins or Orakpo fell to us then I'd take them.


The problem with all the defensive player talk is that Clay Matthews seems to be our most realistic option. Picking Matthews (even though he may not be BPA) because our defense was worse than our offense doesn't sit well with me.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 04:09 PM
We were totally lucky that Steve Slaton got through the end of that season. Even so, there were game plans that they used to protect him when he was dinged up more than the coaches were letting on at first. Game plans where the Texans barely ran at all.

You can either have to protect your one good RB, or you can get a guy who can give Slaton a breather and replace him if he gets hurt enough he has to sit, which happens a lot in the league.

Getting a dependable running game clearly helps your offense and helps your defense by putting points on the board and keeping them off the damn field.

I'm currently thinking, linebacker in the first, running back in the second. Currently, the running backs I think will be available in the second are more intriguing from an immediate impact perspective than any of the defensive candidates. Lots of the CBs available seem like more of the same project types we are already developing on the roster.

I'm not disregarding the running game and the overall positives it has on the team, I just don't see a huge difference between the backs that will be available in the 2nd round and the ones that will be available in the 3rd/4th rounds. In the end I don't this the FO sees a huge difference either. We should be able to find the kinda back we're looking for in the mid rounds.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 04:12 PM
If Jenkins or Orakpo fell to us then I'd take them.


The problem with all the defensive player talk is that Clay Matthews seems to be our most realistic option. Picking Matthews (even though he may not be BPA) because our defense was worse than our offense doesn't sit well with me.

How did this thinking work out in '06?

Also Clay Matthews is a hellava athlete/football player, he could be the "BPA" for this team, especially if he fills a big need.

Polo
03-30-2009, 04:13 PM
We
I'm currently thinking, linebacker in the first, running back in the second. Currently, the running backs I think will be available in the second are more intriguing from an immediate impact perspective than any of the defensive candidates.

I'm so right there with you...

I don't want to force defense because that unit was worse than our "3rd ranked" offense ...I think more thinking needs to/will go into the decision than that.

Especially considering the fact that whichever back we pick up to play with Slaton will see their fair share of carries throughout the season...

Polo
03-30-2009, 04:15 PM
How did this thinking work out in '06?

Ummm...It worked out great...

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 04:16 PM
Good post TC.


I think a lot of people are also forgetting that getting another RB is not just getting a back up to Slaton. It's getting a guy that would be really good and provide strengths at RB that Slaton doesn't completely have. We would be going after a guy who is bigger and stronger and better in short yard situations and that could be better for grinding out longer possessions on offense. It's not like we're just drafting a back up. We would be drafting a back up AND a guy who could bring something different to the table that Slaton currently doesn't have.

That same type of back you just described will be available in the 3rd round/4th round......That is what people have been saying throughout this entire thread. There is alot of quality "big backs" in this draft.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 04:17 PM
Ummm...It worked out great...

I know it did. In '06 we clearly drafted for what we needed on this team and to win within the division.

badboy
03-30-2009, 04:21 PM
1.Wells 2 Ron Brace NT 3. Laurentis LB 4a Canfield OG 4b David Bruton FS Notre Dame 6'2" 219 4.46 combine

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 04:21 PM
That same type of back you just described will be available in the 3rd round/4th round......That is what people have been saying throughout this entire thread.

YOu keep saying that but that is out of your own personal speculation. I don't see any guy that will be available in the 3rd or 4th round that will be even remotely as good as Wells or especially Moreno. I don't want Moreno though because he is to much like Slaton, but Wells is exactly what we need. I don't see anyone in the 3rd or 4th that I think will be as good as Greene either. Now, maybe I'm wrong and the best RB in the draft will go in the 5th round for all I know, but I don't think their is one guy that will be in those rounds that could help us as much as Wells could pairing him up with Slaton.

Polo
03-30-2009, 04:22 PM
I know it did. In '06 we clearly drafted for what we needed on this team and to win within the division.

Are you thinking about what you're saying?

In '06 people were mostly clamoring for D'Brick, Reggie Bush, and Vince because our offense sucked so much. Going into the draft we had made most of our key FA signings on defense even though offense is where we felt like we needed the most help. We had no RB, a complete question at QB, our O-line sucked and we had no recievers.

All that said, we went defense....With our first two picks....Remember all the people boo'ing?

I don't see how that helps your argument "defense was worse than offense, so that's what we must pick."

badboy
03-30-2009, 04:22 PM
If Jenkins or Orakpo fell to us then I'd take them.


The problem with all the defensive player talk is that Clay Matthews seems to be our most realistic option. Picking Matthews (even though he may not be BPA) because our defense was worse than our offense doesn't sit well with me.We agree on Matthews at #15. If we get him later, I will not scream but not our best choice.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 04:25 PM
YOu keep saying that but that is out of your own personal speculation. I don't see any guy that will be available in the 3rd or 4th round that will be even remotely as good as Wells or especially Moreno. I don't want Moreno though because he is to much like Slaton, but Wells is exactly what we need. I don't see anyone in the 3rd or 4th that I think will be as good as Greene either. Now, maybe I'm wrong and the best RB in the draft will go in the 5th round for all I know, but I don't think their is one guy that will be in those rounds that could help us as much as Wells could pairing him up with Slaton.

Well if you're hoping to get Wells or Moreno, than be prepared to be deeply disappointed, because while I'm willing to concede there is a wild card possibility that we spend as high as a second rounder one a RB that they just go bonkers over or fall in love with....this team is not spending a first rounder on one period.

Polo
03-30-2009, 04:27 PM
I honestly don't think we will get one of the first rd backs, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if we do.

Right now though, I'm definitely thinking atleast 2nd rd, with a possibility of Moreno or Wells in the first.

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 04:27 PM
What I would like to know is how in the hell did Clay freaking Mathews jump so high up on the Texans board to where they would want him over a guy like Lauranitus who was a beast in college for the last 3 years and a leader while Mathews was a freaking back up? That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 04:29 PM
Are you thinking about what you're saying?

In '06 people were mostly clamoring for D'Brick, Reggie Bush, and Vince because our offense sucked so much. Going into the draft we had made most of our key FA signings on defense even though offense is where we felt like we needed the most help. We had no RB, a complete question at QB, our O-line sucked and we had no recievers.

All that said, we went defense....With our first two picks....Remember all the people boo'ing?

I don't see how that helps your argument "defense was worse than offense, so that's what we must pick."

Well are you thinking about what you're saying, becuause your talking about how "Houston should take BPA" (how conveniently you forgot that) and how there isn't a defensive player that'll make that much of a difference over the "BPA" Wells...

Well in '06 Mario wasn't the perceived BPA.....Bush was, which is why people booed at draft time. Houston instead took what they felt was the bigger need and what would help the team more, franchise pass rusher.

OH btw Houston's defense was WORSE than the offense that year....just like this year. (granted not by much, but they ranked worse than the offense)

spurstexanstros
03-30-2009, 04:29 PM
I am telling ya Mike Goodson...second round

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 04:35 PM
What I would like to know is how in the hell did Clay freaking Mathews jump so high up on the Texans board to where they would want him over a guy like Lauranitus who was a beast in college for the last 3 years and a leader while Mathews was a freaking back up? That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

I laugh when people try to hold Mathews being a backup against him. Maybe the reason why scouts don't hold it against him is because they recognize Mathews played on the most dominant, deepest, and talented LB core in the country and he'd easily be a starter at just about any other school.

jppaul
03-30-2009, 04:38 PM
I am telling ya Mike Goodson...second round

Your kidding right?

Depending on who is available in the third we could go RB, and I think we will if the proper value is there otherwise, one of the 4ths.

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 04:38 PM
I laugh when people try to hold Mathews being a backup against him. Maybe the reason why scouts don't hold it against him is because they recognize Mathews played on the most dominant and talented LB core in the country and he'd easily be a starter at just about any other school.

Well that is a valid point, but that doesn't mean he is worth the 15th pick in the draft. He certainly is not.

The Pencil Neck
03-30-2009, 04:48 PM
At first, I didn't think there was any way that we didn't draft defense the first 3 rounds this year. But as time has gone on, I've changed my mind a bit.

And here's why...

At the 15th pick, the only player that really has value may end up being a running back. Our biggest problem was stopping the run and I don't think we're going to get anyone at 15 that's going to stop the run. If Jenkins falls to us, maybe we go that direction but there's a good possibility he's already gone by the time we're up.

So, at 15, we're stuck looking at a bunch of linebackers that are all flawed. And probably ALL of the top running backs, the best TE, and some good wideouts.

I think we can get linebackers, safeties, and d-linemen in the later rounds that can improve our defense. If we can trade back, so much the better. The more mid-round picks we can pick up, the better off we'll be. But if we do get stuck at 15, the best bang for our buck is probably going to be picking up either Beanie Wells or Knowshon Moreno.

And I'll be fine with that.

idymoe
03-30-2009, 04:49 PM
. Currently, the running backs I think will be available in the second are more intriguing from an immediate impact perspective than any of the defensive candidates.


I'm curious as to who is on your list. RB's that should be available in the 3rd round for Texans are Glen Coffee, James Davis, Cedric Peerman, Javon Ringer, Javaris Williams, and Cory Sheets. All I see in addition to those that should be available at 46 are Shonn Greene, Andre Brown and LeSean McCoy, and one of those could be there in the 3rd round. Of course, it does depend on whose scouting reports you give more weight to.

Defensively in the 2nd, the Texans may have available Sean Smith, Paul Kruger, Marcus Freeman, Jarron Gilbert, Ron Brace, Louis Delmas, D.J. Moore, Rashad Johnson, Patrick Chung and Fili Moala, as well as maybe an offensive center/guard like Eric Wood who I think would really upgrade the O-line. While it would be nice, I don't see taking a running back in the second round that would not be your feature back.

The Pencil Neck
03-30-2009, 04:53 PM
1.Wells 2 Ron Brace NT 3. Laurentis LB 4a Canfield OG 4b David Bruton FS Notre Dame 6'2" 219 4.46 combine


Laurinitis in the 3rd round?

Dude.

Not.

Gonna.

Happen.

spurstexanstros
03-30-2009, 05:03 PM
Your kidding right?

Depending on who is available in the third we could go RB, and I think we will if the proper value is there otherwise, one of the 4ths.

No I am not.. I like Goodson....he has the ability to hit the home run if he gets the screen pass and has the quicknes to work in the ZBS. I think he would go well with Slaton.

Ole Miss Texan
03-30-2009, 05:20 PM
What I would like to know is how in the hell did Clay freaking Mathews jump so high up on the Texans board to where they would want him over a guy like Lauranitus who was a beast in college for the last 3 years and a leader while Mathews was a freaking back up? That doesn't make any sense to me at all.
I've been on the Matthews bandwagon for a while now. My only concern would be if he were able to play SLB on this team or not. That's all that's really important to me. Character, work ethic, etc. all check out. The guy is a real football player and that's what I want. But can he be a SLB for the Texans? If he's another 3-4 LB then he just may not work out for us.

I'm not a big fan of Laurinaitis. He's a player I'd consider with our 2nd round pick, much like how many feel about Matthews. Again, the important thing for me is, "how will this player fit in on the Texans". I'm more concerned with a prospects ability to be effective in OUR system and less so of college stats.

I see Matthews as being a better pass rusher than Laurinaitis. Both are blue collar football player which I love. James may be better suited for a 3-4 defense as well. I think Matthews may fit this teams needs better.

Well are you thinking about what you're saying, becuause your talking about how "Houston should take BPA" (how conveniently you forgot that) and how there isn't a defensive player that'll make that much of a difference over the "BPA" Wells...

Well in '06 Mario wasn't the perceived BPA.....Bush was, which is why people booed at draft time. Houston instead took what they felt was the bigger need and what would help the team more, franchise pass rusher.

OH btw Houston's defense was WORSE than the offense that year....just like this year. (granted not by much, but they ranked worse than the offense)
The important thing to remember is that the Texans were on the clock, not the national media, draftniks and nfl fans. I definitely agree the Texans probably felt Mario filled a bigger need. I don't care what the PERCEIVED BPA was, but Mario was probably BPA on our board and thus we selected him.

bah007
03-30-2009, 05:38 PM
I am telling ya Mike Goodson...second round

lol

Goatcheese
03-30-2009, 05:39 PM
I've been on the Matthews bandwagon for a while now. My only concern would be if he were able to play SLB on this team or not. That's all that's really important to me. Character, work ethic, etc. all check out. The guy is a real football player and that's what I want. But can he be a SLB for the Texans? If he's another 3-4 LB then he just may not work out for us.

I'm not a big fan of Laurinaitis. He's a player I'd consider with our 2nd round pick, much like how many feel about Matthews. Again, the important thing for me is, "how will this player fit in on the Texans". I'm more concerned with a prospects ability to be effective in OUR system and less so of college stats.

I see Matthews as being a better pass rusher than Laurinaitis. Both are blue collar football player which I love. James may be better suited for a 3-4 defense as well. I think Matthews may fit this teams needs better.


The important thing to remember is that the Texans were on the clock, not the national media, draftniks and nfl fans. I definitely agree the Texans probably felt Mario filled a bigger need. I don't care what the PERCEIVED BPA was, but Mario was probably BPA on our board and thus we selected him.

I just can't see spending a first round pick on a linebacker who can't cover.

If the Texans feel like they have to go LB at 15 then I'd much rather have Laurinaitis who is good or great in almost every aspect of his game vs Mathews who is poor in coverage, ok in run support, and good as a blitzer.

The only knocks I have on JL is that he's not as physical as I'd like, and may have peaked. Fortunately the plateau he may have reached is that of a very good NFL starter.

MojoMan
03-30-2009, 05:47 PM
I hope the Texans find a way to trade down.

And then take a CB and an OLB with their first and second round picks, and a RB in the third.

Texan4Ever
03-30-2009, 05:58 PM
IMO, if the Texans aren't able to grab Rashad Jennings or if they don't draft a RB in the 1st Round (Which I don't think they will) I suggest Herb Donaldson from Western Illinois.

I know Western Illinois is a small program but Herb Donaldson packs a powerfull punch and has the size we need in a RB (5'11" 225-Lbs) not to mention he runs a 4.60 40-Yard Dash and can also ctach as well as block in the backfield.

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3n26z6Zr98

http://www.wiuathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=4963&DB_OEM_ID=12000&ATCLID=631513

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 06:01 PM
I hope the Texans find a way to trade down.

And then take a CB and an OLB with their first and second round picks, and a RB in the third.

I honestly don't think they will trade down this season nor do I think a lot of teams will be trading down either. I think a ton of teams will want to trade down, but with this draft not being all that deep in my opinion I don't see a lot of teams wanting to trade up for a lot of specific guys really.

I wouldn't mind us trading down, but I don't think we'll get a trade down with an extra 3rd rounder at all. Just my opinion and prediction.

mussop
03-30-2009, 06:06 PM
Important comments to consider when trying to figure this out.

Kubiak.
In a perfect game, maybe you could say (Slaton) gets 22 touches and the other gets 10 or 12. When you go after him, you have to pick somebody you think is capable of starting a few games.
For Steve to hold up for 15 games was amazing. Hopefully, thatll continue, but you have to be prepared just in case.

As far as where we might get that back, well, you dont know that until you evaluate the draft and set your board and see how many good ones you have rated to go in what round Kubiak said. if there are eight backs you really like, then you know youll probably have to go in the first three rounds to get one.If there are 15, then you might be able to wait until the fourth or fifth rounds.

This IMO is a good tell on how they aproach the draft. If so then some of McNairs comments could have some answers hidden in them we are looking for.

Texans owner Bob McNair:
We filled our big need, and that was getting a defensive end. I think that is really going to take a lot of pressure off of Mario (Williams) on the other side. And I think it will help (Antonio) Smith be a better player because he's going to be playing opposite of Mario. That will help our pass rush; theres not doubt about that. We still would like to get a little more help inside. We signed another defensive tackle (Shaun Cody). In the draft, we'll be looking at linebackers; there are a lot of linebackers available. We ought to be able to get another good linebacker. We would like to strengthen our defensive secondary some more, too. Mainly, the defense is what well be looking for, but at the same time we need to have a big, strong running back to complement Steve Slaton

We would love to see some of the highly rated players fall down to us. You never know will can happen. One of the good things about it, though, there is more depth in the linebacking corps this year than there has been in other year, and we need some more help there. There is a very good possibility that there will be an impact player available. I think also there are some good defensive backs out there, too. We'll be looking at that. I think we will be able to get that impact player; I hope we will in that first pick.

We were able to trade down and we picked up another pick. If we can do that, we certainly would. There is a possibility with the depth at some of the positions that we might be able to do that and still get the player that we want.

Now reread this post but only the bolded. Lots of gems there.


To me its obvious what we are going to do.

CloakNNNdagger
03-30-2009, 06:24 PM
Well since we already "HAVE A STARTING CALIBER RB" Just about any defensive player that upgrades a position on defense will have more value to this team than a top rated RB

If we use Slaton as he was used last year, by the end of the season we are likely to NOT HAVE A STARTING CALIBER RB. He can be expected to consistently do just so much. Most of today's successfull teams run a 2 tag team RB system. Maybe each owns his individual strengths, but their value to the "whole" is usually "equal." How many RBs go down in the NFL through the course of a season? Today, it is almost mandatory that a team has TWO high caliber RBs. Even so, one is likely to limp on the way to the playoffs.

Texecutioner
03-30-2009, 06:26 PM
If we use Slaton as he was used last year, by the end of the season we are likely to NOT HAVE A STARTING CALIBER RB. He can be expected to consistently do just so much. Most of today's successfull teams run a 2 tag team RB system. Maybe each owns his individual strengths, but their value to the "whole" is usually "equal." How many RBs go down in the NFL through the course of a season. Today, it is almost mandatory that a team has TWO high caliber RBs. Even so, one is likely to limp on the way to the playoffs.

Totally agreed. Good post Dagger.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 07:41 PM
If we use Slaton as he was used last year, by the end of the season we are likely to NOT HAVE A STARTING CALIBER RB. He can be expected to consistently do just so much. Most of today's successfull teams run a 2 tag team RB system. Maybe each owns his individual strengths, but their value to the "whole" is usually "equal." How many RBs go down in the NFL through the course of a season? Today, it is almost mandatory that a team has TWO high caliber RBs. Even so, one is likely to limp on the way to the playoffs.

Again.....when have I ever said Houston didn't need another quality runner? I don't believe I ever said that. (regardless if we have a #2 guy, Slaton is still going to be the "starter") I said we don't have to draft one in the first or even second round to fill that hole, that's all I've ever said in this thread. I don't believe anybody in this thread has ever said "we don't need another back and it's all on Slaton's shoulders". If they have, please pull it up. The only thing people are arguing about is "what to spend and where to find" that back (that everybody already agrees that we need).

MojoMan
03-30-2009, 07:53 PM
Every year, so far without exception, there has been a large group of fans who want to use the Texan's first round pick on an offensive skill player. Regardless of the teams other needs, every year. That obviously includes this year, as proven by this thread.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 08:12 PM
If we use Slaton as he was used last year, by the end of the season we are likely to NOT HAVE A STARTING CALIBER RB. He can be expected to consistently do just so much. Most of today's successfull teams run a 2 tag team RB system.

Oh BTW here's what Kubiak said on what he expects next year if Houston gets that other runner...

"Obviously, finding a complement to Steve [Slaton] is important. We went the Cedric Benson route [in free agency] and it didn't work out. It's a little nerve wracking, but you can't force something. At least we know we have a good, young one in Slaton. Hopefully, something good will happen there, but, obviously, we have to improve there."

A bigger back should help the Texans in the red zone -- where they ranked 26th in the league in TD production -- and in short-yardage situations, where they need to convert better in crucial spots and would like to limit the pounding on Slaton.

The 5-foot-9 Slaton was listed at 203 last season.

"Obviously, a bigger, more physical guy from a short-yardage and red zone standpoint would make sense," Kubiak said. "But at the same time, I expect Steve to continue to step forward and get better. He ran hard, broke tackles and moved the pile. But, ideally, we'd still like to have a larger back."

Kubiak said in a perfect world, the lead back would get 22 touches, the second guy about 10 or 12.

Where to find the second guy?

"Well, you don't know that until you evaluate the draft and set your board and see how many good ones you have rated to go in what round," Kubiak said. "Then you try to figure out who ahead of you wants one, too. If there are eight backs you really like, then you know you'll probably have to go in the first three rounds to get one. If there are 15, then you might be able to wait until the fourth or fifth rounds."

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/0-8-137/Big-back-possibilities-for-the-Texans.html

So assuming Slaton is the "lead back", which I think is fair to assume....Kubiak expects around 20 touches a game (carries and catches).

Do you know what Slaton's average "touches" were last season?... He only averaged 19.9 touches per game, so Kubiak was already protecting him.

Now lets look at another small quick back who ran in the two "tag team" back system... Chris Johnson, guess what his average "touches" were last season?.... 19.6, right there with Slaton even though he had another "pounder/starting caliber" back with him to take carries.

I think it's pretty obvious Kubiak already had a "touch" count on Slaton and was trying to protect him last season. Just because we pick up another back, it doesn't mean Slaton is going to get less carries....it just means we're going to run the ball more, which is something Kubiak has always preached and said he wanted to do since he's gotten here.....he just hasn't had the backs to do it.

Number19
03-30-2009, 08:15 PM
Our offense was statistically successful last season. But do you remember how often Slaton was stopped dead at the line of scrimmage or for minus yardage. One thing the team can do to improve the running game, and save some hard knocks on our RB's, is to strengthen the middle of the line.

If Jonathan Luigs falls to us in the 3rd round, we shouldn't hesitate to take him.

I'd then take RB in the 4th and the one I have my eye on is Gatrell Johnson. Badboy, you have Johnson down for the 6th round. I wouldn't be certain he would stay on the board that long. I think he's a riser and I'm worried he may slip into the 3rd and not fall to us in the next round.

I currently have : 1st : Mathews; 2nd : CB Coye Francis; 3rd : Luigs and 4th : Johnson.

With our free agent signings, this addresses everyone of our needs except safety.

threetoedpete
03-30-2009, 09:49 PM
Nope, 3rd round or later. :cool:

Agreed. There will be good players for what Kubes wants to do in the third through fifth rounds. Unless they've changed their collective opinion on Slaton...that he can't handle seventeen touches per game no need to over draft a back up running back. Actually I believe it would be very foolish. Bang the defense early and often I say.

I wanna see Slaton have his shot at his six mill a year contract. ok ? He's earned at least the try at the first round contract. Paying some rookie who's never done anything for us with Slaton's money has no appeal to me. I think it's rather obscene actually.

Lucky
03-30-2009, 10:02 PM
This is a very deep class for RBs. The deepest one in a while if you ask me.
There's no way this class compares to '08. Three rookies finished among the top 10 in rushing. And that's not including McFadden, Stewart, Rice, Choice, Hightower, or Kevin Smith. It will likely go down as a historic draft for RBs.

Where 1000 yard rushers were drafted since 2000:
7th Round - 1
6th Round - 2
5th Round - 1
4th Round - 4
3rd Round - 6
2nd Round - 9
1st Round - 17

I'm not saying that a 1000 yards is the bottom line for a RB. Jones-Drew has never rushed for 1000 yards in a season, and he's certainly an impact back. Michael Pittman has been a productive reserve RB for years, never a 1000 yard rusher. What I am saying is that, obviously, the better players are more likely to be drafted sooner rather than later. And if a team goes into a draft expecting to find a RB that will produce soon, they shouldn't wait too long.

Not only have the Texans stated their desire for a RB, they have pigeon-holed themselves by looking for a "bigger, more physical guy". There are only so many of these big backs in a draft. We can say the Texans should wait until the ____ round to draft a RB. But, when the Texans pull the trigger will be determined by how the draft plays out. So forget Chris Wells, he will go in the first. Andre Brown, Shonne Greene, and Rashad Jennings may not last until pick #77. The Texans may very well need to use their 2nd round selection on a RB. Or use their 4th from the Rosencopter trade to move up into the late 2nd, early 3rd round area.

threetoedpete
03-30-2009, 10:07 PM
I don't think our defensive talent is as bad as everyone claims. They just had trouble with injuries in '08 that kept our starters either off the field completely, or greatly hampered.

D-Rob clearly wasn't 100%


Yes it was. They are what they posted in '08. They were eleven to fifteen sacks short. And ten to fifteen turn overs short of being a good mediocre team. Unless the o-line jells in to one of the all time best....something I've seen no one on here project this off season BTW.....the o-line cannot protect the defense. That's not I don't think or I don't believe...that's a fact old Hoss. Detroit...Minnesota....Green Bay....Oakland.....Cleveland.

Now they may improve in the red zone....Shaub might make all sixteen games.
Gambling on last years promising rookies....hopping it all comes out fine in the end....because you want them to draft a front line college star to entertain you....is not going to get them the division crown. You draft to make the defense close to the middle of the pack.....You draft someone who'll elevate the sack bar for '09. And if you're lucky with the first three of four picks....a top twelve defense. Prey you don't have too many o-line injuries.....and have a chance at your first division title.

And guess what ?...that's exactly what they are going to do

....Whether you understand. Whether you think it. Whether you believe it or not.

Carr Bombed
03-30-2009, 11:09 PM
There's no way this class compares to '08. Three rookies finished among the top 10 in rushing. And that's not including McFadden, Stewart, Rice, Choice, Hightower, or Kevin Smith. It will likely go down as a historic draft for RBs.

Where 1000 yard rushers were drafted since 2000:
7th Round - 1
6th Round - 2
5th Round - 1
4th Round - 4
3rd Round - 6
2nd Round - 9
1st Round - 17

I'm not saying that a 1000 yards is the bottom line for a RB. Jones-Drew has never rushed for 1000 yards in a season, and he's certainly an impact back. Michael Pittman has been a productive reserve RB for years, never a 1000 yard rusher. What I am saying is that, obviously, the better players are more likely to be drafted sooner rather than later. And if a team goes into a draft expecting to find a RB that will produce soon, they shouldn't wait too long.

Not only have the Texans stated their desire for a RB, they have pigeon-holed themselves by looking for a "bigger, more physical guy". There are only so many of these big backs in a draft. We can say the Texans should wait until the ____ round to draft a RB. But, when the Texans pull the trigger will be determined by how the draft plays out. So forget Chris Wells, he will go in the first. Andre Brown, Shonne Greene, and Rashad Jennings may not last until pick #77. The Texans may very well need to use their 2nd round selection on a RB. Or use their 4th from the Rosencopter trade to move up into the late 2nd, early 3rd round area.

So where did you get those stats?, because I can name 4, 4th rounds RBs off the top of my head and I really don't think I'm that good to nail the only 4 since 2000.

Rudi Johnson
Mike Anderson
Domanick Davis
and
Brandon Jacobs...

Also another reason why later round picks don't put up 1,000 yard seasons is because they're mainly drafted to be backups.....which is essentially what we're looking for. The ones that do end up being 1,000 yard backs usually have to wait to get their opportunity through injury or someone trades for them (ala Michael Turner "5th rounder" and heck...even Steve Slaton) I'm also extremely curious to see the ones that barely miss the cut like Marion Barber, another 4th rounder...

Spled
03-30-2009, 11:52 PM
Check out Beanie Wells dropping dudes with a stiff arm - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f718Ei0TAck&feature=related

Carr Bombed
03-31-2009, 12:15 AM
Check out Beanie Wells dropping dudes with a stiff arm - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f718Ei0TAck&feature=related

Awesome...but all of these backs have youtube highlight videos, they're being drafted in the league for a reason....they have talent. Ron Dayne was one of the most devastating college runners in NCAA history. I remembered this site was bombarded with Reggie Bush highlight videos. (epic videos, I might add) I'm just saying you have to keep these things in perspective. All the RBs taken next month have skill and have made fools out of plenty of people they've played against.

beerlover
03-31-2009, 01:22 AM
its not hard to imagine that Knowshon Moreno would be bpa @ #15. however the 2nd rd. pick is hard to tell. Wells, Brown (#2 & #3) will be gone. McCoy is too similar to Steve & Rashad Jennings/Shonn Green may be a little early thus not bpa. 3rd rd. those already mentioned are gone then your left with "can Andre Brown stay healthy" 4th, 5th 6th & 7th rd. picks.

I would not mind hitting RB in 1st then again in 7th & be done with it.

Carr Bombed
03-31-2009, 01:42 AM
its not hard to imagine that Knowshon Moreno would be bpa @ #15. however the 2nd rd. pick is hard to tell. Wells, Brown (#2 & #3) will be gone. McCoy is too similar to Steve & Rashad Jennings/Shonn Green may be a little early thus not bpa. 3rd rd. those already mentioned are gone then your left with "can Andre Brown stay healthy" 4th, 5th 6th & 7th rd. picks.

I would not mind hitting RB in 1st then again in 7th & be done with it.

How is Moreno going to be the best player available at #15 when he isn't expected to be taken off the board until the end of the first round and Wells might be there at 15?

Goatcheese
03-31-2009, 05:24 AM
Yes it was. They are what they posted in '08. They were eleven to fifteen sacks short. And ten to fifteen turn overs short of being a good mediocre team. Unless the o-line jells in to one of the all time best....something I've seen no one on here project this off season BTW.....the o-line cannot protect the defense. That's not I don't think or I don't believe...that's a fact old Hoss. Detroit...Minnesota....Green Bay....Oakland.....Cleveland.

Now they may improve in the red zone....Shaub might make all sixteen games.
Gambling on last years promising rookies....hopping it all comes out fine in the end....because you want them to draft a front line college star to entertain you....is not going to get them the division crown. You draft to make the defense close to the middle of the pack.....You draft someone who'll elevate the sack bar for '09. And if you're lucky with the first three of four picks....a top twelve defense. Prey you don't have too many o-line injuries.....and have a chance at your first division title.

And guess what ?...that's exactly what they are going to do

....Whether you understand. Whether you think it. Whether you believe it or not.

Apparently reading comprehension isn't your biggest strength, so I'm going to break it down for you in big, red, bold letters.

The Texans 6 best defenders were injured last year.

Read it again.

The Texans 6 best defenders were injured last year.

Let it sink in.

The Texans 6 best defenders were injured last year.

Now stop. Take a minute to think about that. If your six best defenders are injured, might it affect how well your defense plays?

I'm going to go ahead and answer that for you: Yes. Having half your defense injured for much of the season is going to make your defense perform poorly.

I know. I'm crazy with my unconventional thinking.

How can having your best players sitting on the sideline effect the defense you ask? It's quite simple: They're not on the field.

D-Rob missed the first 6 weeks, and wasn't 100% the entire year. Hmm, so our best guy in the secondary missed a lot of time, and wasn't playing as well as he can. Might that have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

Okoye missed a few weeks, and was slowed most of the season with injuries. Might our best DT missing time, and being slowed with injuries have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

Diles lead the team in tackles through the first half of '08 before breaking his leg. Might our leading tackler missing half the season have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

Adibi showed flashes of being a good player in his 5 starts. Might having that young athletic player there for 16 games have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

Ryans was nagged with injuries almost the entire year. Might Ryans getting healthy have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

Williams is one of the best defenders in all of football, but had a shoulder injury that hampered his play for part of last season. Might having him 100% have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

How many games did we have Williams, Ryans, Robinson, Adibi, Diles, and Okoye start together?

Answer: ZERO

Those guys combined to miss nearly 30 games. If you put all of those guys on the field, healthy for 16 games, with Smith, Wilson, and a 2nd round safety it's going to be a pretty solid defense. They still need to find a solution at #1 CB, and NT but unless Jenkins slips that's not something that looks like an option to fix in round 1.

We also have the added benefit of firing Dick Smith. That should bump our defensive rankings by a lot.

If you all think a 4th rounder can fix our 13th ranked rushing attack, then why do you seem to think the 17th ranked passing defense needs so much more? You should be raving just as much against anyone who suggests drafting a CB or safety in the first 3 rounds.

You seem to have the mistaken belief that we only have one draft pick. New flash, we have EIGHT. Some of those are going to be spent on defense, and some of those players are going to win spots as starters or in a rotation.

How good would the offense be without Schaub, Andre, Walters, Slaton, Winston, and Daniels? Not very good.

That's not I don't think or I don't believe...that's a fact old Hoss.
....Whether you understand. Whether you think it. Whether you believe it or not.

dalemurphy
03-31-2009, 06:01 AM
Apparently reading comprehension isn't your biggest strength, so I'm going to break it down for you in big, red, bold letters.

The Texans 6 best defenders were injured last year.

Read it again.

The Texans 6 best defenders were injured last year.

Let it sink in.

The Texans 6 best defenders were injured last year.

Now stop. Take a minute to think about that. If your six best defenders are injured, might it affect how well your defense plays?

I'm going to go ahead and answer that for you: Yes. Having half your defense injured for much of the season is going to make your defense perform poorly.

I know. I'm crazy with my unconventional thinking.

How can having your best players sitting on the sideline effect the defense you ask? It's quite simple: They're not on the field.

D-Rob missed the first 6 weeks, and wasn't 100% the entire year. Hmm, so our best guy in the secondary missed a lot of time, and wasn't playing as well as he can. Might that have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

Okoye missed a few weeks, and was slowed most of the season with injuries. Might our best DT missing time, and being slowed with injuries have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

Diles lead the team in tackles through the first half of '08 before breaking his leg. Might our leading tackler missing half the season have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

Adibi showed flashes of being a good player in his 5 starts. Might having that young athletic player there for 16 games have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

Ryans was nagged with injuries almost the entire year. Might Ryans getting healthy have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

Williams is one of the best defenders in all of football, but had a shoulder injury that hampered his play for part of last season. Might having him 100% have an impact on how well the defense plays? Let me answer that for you: Yes

How many games did we have Williams, Ryans, Robinson, Adibi, Diles, and Okoye start together?

Answer: ZERO

Those guys combined to miss nearly 30 games. If you put all of those guys on the field, healthy for 16 games, with Smith, Wilson, and a 2nd round safety it's going to be a pretty solid defense. They still need to find a solution at #1 CB, and NT but unless Jenkins slips that's not something that looks like an option to fix in round 1.

We also have the added benefit of firing Dick Smith. That should bump our defensive rankings by a lot.

If you all think a 4th rounder can fix our 13th ranked rushing attack, then why do you seem to think the 17th ranked passing defense needs so much more? You should be raving just as much against anyone who suggests drafting a CB or safety in the first 3 rounds.

You seem to have the mistaken belief that we only have one draft pick. New flash, we have EIGHT. Some of those are going to be spent on defense, and some of those players are going to win spots as starters or in a rotation.

How good would the offense be without Schaub, Andre, Walters, Slaton, Winston, and Daniels? Not very good.


I agree with much of what you're saying. However, I wouldn't count on our 6 best defenders being on the field at 100% this season. It's football and that rarely happens. If you look at last season's elite defenses, they each had to overcome plenty of injury issues:

1. Tennessee- KVB missed a ton of time and was hampered by a groin. Haynesworth had a knee and a bad hammy.

2. Baltimore- had a ton of CB injuries and Ed Reed was hobbled for the first 1/2 of the season.

3. NE- Rodney Harrison destroyed his knee. Seymour had injuries as well.


While we need to add some talent to the defense, I agree that talent isn't what has held it back. I'm very excited to see how the new coaching affects it and I expect a dramatic difference. My guess is that the defense will struggle by giving up some big plays early in the season but I think we can count on the defense making a lot more plays all season.

Regarding the draft, if only one thing is accomplished in the draft, it clearly better be that we improve the talent and depth at the RB position. We can't have the entire season dependant upon the health of a 205lb, 2nd year RB.

Lucky
03-31-2009, 06:21 AM
So where did you get those stats?, because I can name 4, 4th rounds RBs off the top of my head and I really don't think I'm that good to nail the only 4 since 2000.

Rudi Johnson
Mike Anderson
Domanick Davis
and
Brandon Jacobs...

I'm also extremely curious to see the ones that barely miss the cut like Marion Barber, another 4th rounder...
Youn can sort through lists of drafted RBs, at pro football reference (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/draft/draft_query.cgi?pos=RB&round_1=4&round_2=4&tm=all&year_1=2000&year_2=2008&conference=any&type=). Actually, it's only 3 from the 4th round. I mistakenly included Barber. Mike Anderson was a 6th Round pick.

My point is, do you think any of those teams drafted these backs late and said, "OK, we're set at RB". Most of these guys were taken as BPA. Davis was drafted to be a 3rd down back and returner. Again, if a team goes into a draft with the expectation of finding a RB that will have to produce immediately, they're not likely to find the back in the later portions of the draft. The number of RBs drafted in rounds 4-7 that produce anything as a rookie are much smaller.

Goatcheese
03-31-2009, 07:32 AM
I agree with much of what you're saying. However, I wouldn't count on our 6 best defenders being on the field at 100% this season. It's football and that rarely happens. If you look at last season's elite defenses, they each had to overcome plenty of injury issues:

1. Tennessee- KVB missed a ton of time and was hampered by a groin. Haynesworth had a knee and a bad hammy.

2. Baltimore- had a ton of CB injuries and Ed Reed was hobbled for the first 1/2 of the season.

3. NE- Rodney Harrison destroyed his knee. Seymour had injuries as well.


While we need to add some talent to the defense, I agree that talent isn't what has held it back. I'm very excited to see how the new coaching affects it and I expect a dramatic difference. My guess is that the defense will struggle by giving up some big plays early in the season but I think we can count on the defense making a lot more plays all season.

Regarding the draft, if only one thing is accomplished in the draft, it clearly better be that we improve the talent and depth at the RB position. We can't have the entire season dependent upon the health of a 205lb, 2nd year RB.

True, but do we need to draft a first rounder to be depth, and never see the field unless the starter goes down?

A first round pick needs to either be a starter, or at least a guy who gets a lot of playing time. Like a nickle corner who could be a future #1, RB who gets 1/3-1/2 of the carries, or a dominating pass rushing DE who comes in 20-30 snaps a game.

I only see a few defenders who fit in that description and might be available for us to pick. Jenkins, Alphonso Smith, Maybin, and maybe if we're feeling spunky Michael Johnson.

The only linebacker I could make an argument for would be Laurinaitis. He's produced at a high level for a long time without question. I'm not convinced that Cushing or Mathews are appreciably better than Diles and Adibi. Drafting one of them would be like drafting Sanchez just incase Schaub goes down. Most people would laugh at that idea, but they're advocating the same thing for our linebackers.

TimeKiller
03-31-2009, 07:52 AM
The only linebacker I could make an argument for would be Laurinaitis. He's produced at a high level for a long time without question. I'm not convinced that Cushing or Mathews are appreciably better than Diles and Adibi. Drafting one of them would be like drafting Sanchez just incase Schaub goes down. Most people would laugh at that idea, but they're advocating the same thing for our linebackers.

MMM....except that Schaub has proven to be an NFL caliber starter and then some. He just hasn't proven durability. Adibi nor Diles have that. Sanchez wouldn't start, Cushing, Matthews, and Laraunitis would all start somewhere on our D

Polo
03-31-2009, 08:51 AM
I'm not sold on one single defensive player from this draft coming in and starting for us.

Besides that, I don't see LB as one of our major needs. I'd be perfectly fine with adding a 3rd round LB and a FA (maybe Cato June) to the group we currently have and rolling with that.

Our DB's are much worse off IMHO. We don't have much at either safety position, and all of our corners have something suspect about their games. I think at this point I'd rather get a really good interior O-lineman in the 1st before we go OLB.

Polo
03-31-2009, 08:53 AM
Youn can sort through lists of drafted RBs, at pro football reference (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/draft/draft_query.cgi?pos=RB&round_1=4&round_2=4&tm=all&year_1=2000&year_2=2008&conference=any&type=). Actually, it's only 3 from the 4th round. I mistakenly included Barber. Mike Anderson was a 6th Round pick.

My point is, do you think any of those teams drafted these backs late and said, "OK, we're set at RB". Most of these guys were taken as BPA. Davis was drafted to be a 3rd down back and returner. Again, if a team goes into a draft with the expectation of finding a RB that will have to produce immediately, they're not likely to find the back in the later portions of the draft. The number of RBs drafted in rounds 4-7 that produce anything as a rookie are much smaller.

Good post

beerlover
03-31-2009, 09:06 AM
How is Moreno going to be the best player available at #15 when he isn't expected to be taken off the board until the end of the first round and Wells might be there at 15?

who says he isn't expected to be taken off the board until the end of 1st rd?

general consensus suggests he is a Top 10 prospect in this draft, its a function of team needs more than anything if he is still available when it's Texans turn @ the podium. other than Adrian Peterson or Reggie Bush at least to me he is the highest rated RB to come out of College in years. He is a special player. A younger stronger version of Clinton Portis :specnatz:

HOU-TEX
03-31-2009, 09:46 AM
I hope the Texans find a way to trade down.

And then take a CB and an OLB with their first and second round picks, and a RB in the third.

This would be my perfect scenerio as well.

If there was a chance in heck we take a RB in the 1st, I'd want Moreno.

*Sigh* I wish the draft would hurry up and get here. :gun:

Blake
03-31-2009, 09:53 AM
Every year, so far without exception, there has been a large group of fans who want to use the Texan's first round pick on an offensive skill player. Regardless of the teams other needs, every year. That obviously includes this year, as proven by this thread.

I agree overall with your statement here. But I still think the Texans should take their BPA when the #15 pick comes up regardless off what side of the ball they are on.

Was David Carr really ranked higher than Julius Peppers on the Texans draft board, or did they lock themselves into needing an offensive player?

Was Travis Johnson + a 3rd rounder higher on their draft board than Jammal Brown or did they want a defensive lineman so bad that they ignored BPA from the equation?

I would rather them take a running back that they feel is worth the 15th pick even in a ZB scheme rather than reach for a linebacker that they feel is worth a late round 1 selection.

CloakNNNdagger
03-31-2009, 10:09 AM
Oh BTW here's what Kubiak said on what he expects next year if Houston gets that other runner...


http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/0-8-137/Big-back-possibilities-for-the-Texans.html

So assuming Slaton is the "lead back", which I think is fair to assume....Kubiak expects around 20 touches a game (carries and catches).

Do you know what Slaton's average "touches" were last season?... He only averaged 19.9 touches per game, so Kubiak was already protecting him.

Now lets look at another small quick back who ran in the two "tag team" back system... Chris Johnson, guess what his average "touches" were last season?.... 19.6, right there with Slaton even though he had another "pounder/starting caliber" back with him to take carries.

I think it's pretty obvious Kubiak already had a "touch" count on Slaton and was trying to protect him last season. Just because we pick up another back, it doesn't mean Slaton is going to get less carries....it just means we're going to run the ball more, which is something Kubiak has always preached and said he wanted to do since he's gotten here.....he just hasn't had the backs to do it.


Kubiak's "perfect scenario" :

Kubiak said in a perfect world, the lead back would get 22 touches, the second guy about 10 or 12.

would imply a total of 32 to 34 touches per game. Only four 2008 NFL teams put up those numbers..........Patriots (32.1), Vikings (32.4), Falcons (35) and Ravens (37). The Texans put up 27.0 touches per game. That would say to me that Slaton was stuck with carrying all but 7 of the remaining carries per game............and instead of having help from that much needed "complimentary bruising back," he was in there bruising his own back against stacked up defenses..............again, I repeat that if he is called on to take on last year's responsibilities "alone," he will be in this league "N__F__L."

beerlover
03-31-2009, 10:22 AM
waiting for the Clinton Portis wasn't selected until the 2nd rd. comeback but haven't we rehashed that angle repeatedly over the years post 2002 "the Texans should have selected him" threads? he turned out to be a steal & the Texans (old Charlie Casserly regime) passed. teams thought they could address RB later then too I guess, of course in Portis case he played @ Miami & could have been overshadowed by all their great talent, then he refused to workout @ the combine & took poor advise from his agent not to promote his image. there is no doubt today that he was worth a high 1st rd. pick, just check out that 2002 draft starting with the Texans selecting David Carr-

1 David Carr Texans QB Fresno State
2 Julius Peppers Panthers DE North Carolina
3 Joey Harrington Lions QB Oregon
4 Mike Williams Bills T Texas
5 Quentin Jammer Chargers DB Texas
6 Ryan Sims Chiefs DT North Carolina
7 Bryant McKinnie Vikings T Miami (FL)
8 Roy Williams Cowboys DB Oklahoma
9 John Henderson Jaguars DT Tennessee
10 Levi Jones Bengals T Arizona State
11 Dwight Freeney Colts DE Syracuse
12 Wendell Bryant Cardinals DT Wisconsin
13 Donte Stallworth Saints WR Tennessee
14 Jeremy Shockey Giants TE Miami (FL)
15 Albert Haynesworth Titans DT Tennessee
16 William Green Browns RB Boston College
17 Phillip Buchanon Raiders DB Miami (FL)
18 T.J. Duckett Falcons RB Michigan State
19 Ashley Lelie Broncos WR Hawaii
20 Javon Walker Packers WR Florida State
21 Dan Graham Patriots TE Colorado
22 Bryan Thomas Jets DE Alabama-Birmingham
23 Napoleon Harris Raiders LB Northwestern
24 Ed Reed Ravens DB Miami (FL)
25 Charles Grant Saints DE Georgia
26 Lito Sheppard Eagles DB Florida
27 Mike Rumph 49ers DB Miami (FL)
28 Jerramy Stevens Seahawks TE Washington
29 Marc Colombo Bears T Boston College
30 Kendall Simmons Steelers G Auburn
31 Robert Thomas Rams LB UCLA
32 Patrick Ramsey Redskins QB Tulane


highlighted 15 players who busted or dissapointed while Portis is Regarded as one of the NFL’s most talented running backs this decade, Clinton Portis has rushed for 9,202 career yards and 72 rushing touchdowns in his seven NFL seasons. He totaled over 1,000 yards rushing in a single season for the sixth time in his career (fourth time with the Redskins) in 2008. Portis had a season-best 175 yards on 27 carries and one TD vs. Cleveland (10/19) last year. Entering the 2009 season, he ranks second all-time in club history in rushing yards (6,103). Portis's list of accomplishments include being named the 2002 NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year and selected to the 2003 and 2008 Pro Bowls.

Moreno is all that & more. if the Texans select him Schaub would have as talented backfied as any in the National Football League & automatically addressing depth @ must have position representing commitment to establishing the running game to balance play action in passing attack.

Carr Bombed
03-31-2009, 10:24 AM
Kubiak's "perfect scenario" :



would imply a total of 32 to 34 touches per game. Only the top two 2008 NFL rushing teams put up those numbers..........#1 Vikings (34) and the #2 Giants (32). The Texans put up 24.5 touches per game. That would say to me that Slaton was stuck with carrying all but less than 5 of the remaining carries per game............and instead of having help from that much needed "complimentary bruising back," he was in there bruising his own back against stacked up defenses..............again, I repeat that if he is called on to take on last year's responsibilities "alone," he will be in this league "N__F__L."

When Denver had two quality runners they had no problem putting up those kinda rushing stats (they were like a top 5 rushing team for 5 or 6 years straight)......so while it's the "perfect scenario" if Kubiak gets that other "starting caliber back" that everyone wants him to get, he (and Gibbs) isn't going to have a problem reaching that "perfect scenario" and Slaton is still going to get his "19.9" touches a game. I don't see where getting this other back saves him from the touches he received last year, since Kubiak saved him last year from a large amount of touches, except for the fact that he won't handle as many goal line/short situation touches.

Polo
03-31-2009, 10:28 AM
When Denver had two quality runners they had no problem putting up those kinda rushing stats (they were like a top 5 rushing team for 5 or 6 years straight)......so while it's the "perfect scenario" if Kubiak gets that other "starting caliber back" that everyone wants him to get, he (and Gibbs) isn't going to have a problem reaching that "perfect scenario" and Slaton is still going to get his "19.9" touches a game. I don't see where getting this other back saves him from the touches he received last year, since Kubiak saved him last year from a large amount of touches, except for the fact that he won't handle as many goal line/short situation touches.

Are you really arguing that adding another quality RB wouldn't help keep Slaton healthier/fresh ?

Carr Bombed
03-31-2009, 10:40 AM
Are you really arguing that adding another quality RB wouldn't help keep Slaton healthier/fresh ?

No I'm arguing he's still going to get his "touches" and I even provided a example of how another back very similar to Slaton got his touches even when running with another runner (and Fisher has come out and said he wants to even expand CJ's role in the offense). Plus Kubiak even said with another back he's still going to get those touches. People are just choosing to ignore it.

The guy didn't get used as much as people are trying to make out, Kubiak protected him last season. Everybody is afraid he's going to be like D.D., but Davis already suffered from knee injuries in college.....he was already damaged goods and his knees were ticking time bombs when he got here. Slaton has a uncanny ability to make people miss and rarely takes a flush hit, that's how he stayed healthy last season....that and luck, which every player needs.

Texecutioner
03-31-2009, 10:44 AM
waiting for the Clinton Portis wasn't selected until the 2nd rd. comeback but haven't we rehashed that angle repeatedly over the years post 2002 "the Texans should have selected him" threads? he turned out to be a steal & the Texans (old Charlie Casserly regime) passed. teams thought they could address RB later then too I guess, of course in Portis case he played @ Miami & could have been overshadowed by all their great talent, then he refused to workout @ the combine & took poor advise from his agent not to promote his image. there is no doubt today that he was worth a high 1st rd. pick, just check out that 2002 draft starting with the Texans selecting David Carr-



highlighted 15 players who busted or dissapointed while Portis is

Moreno is all that & more. if the Texans select him Schaub would have as talented backfied as any in the National Football League & automatically addressing depth @ must have position representing commitment to establishing the running game to balance play action in passing attack.

I like Moreno better than any RB since Adrian Peterson. Moreno is going to be a big time RB for a lot of years. Him and Slaton would automatically become the best duo in the league for sure. And I'm pretty sure that Moreno will be better than Slaton in the long run as well. With those two backs, you almost wouldn't know who to give the most carries to.

I would rather have Wells though, because Wells is that bigger stronger back that would be great for the Red Zone and short yardage plays while Slaton would be the nice burner and HR hitter.

badboy
03-31-2009, 10:54 AM
I am telling ya Mike Goodson...second roundYou sound like an Aggie backer. Goodson is maybe a 4th, probably a 5th. His per carry avg dropped last season from 6.7 to 4.7 per Walters. He is fast but not much history of being effective.

Polo
03-31-2009, 11:04 AM
The guy didn't get used as much as people are trying to make out, Kubiak protected him last season.


It's not how often Slaton was used for me, it is 'the way he was used'. I don't want Slaton to be our pounder. I don't want him carrying the ball a bunch of times in a row. I'd rather more his 'touches' come in space rather than mostly running him up the gut. Screens, Flare outs, outside zone stuff...ect...

If you are not arguing that adding another back will keep him healthier then we have no issue.

badboy
03-31-2009, 11:05 AM
Laurinitis in the 3rd round?

Dude.

Not.

Gonna.

Happen.Check out Walters as the guy is slipping. I don't have him near my board but he is a projected 2-3 round. If he is there at 3rd and strange things can happen, I gotta go for him.
http://www.walterfootball.com/draft2009ILB.php
Probably like Raji, Orakpo being there @ 15.

badboy
03-31-2009, 11:09 AM
IMO, if the Texans aren't able to grab Rashad Jennings or if they don't draft a RB in the 1st Round (Which I don't think they will) I suggest Herb Donaldson from Western Illinois.

I know Western Illinois is a small program but Herb Donaldson packs a powerfull punch and has the size we need in a RB (5'11" 225-Lbs) not to mention he runs a 4.60 40-Yard Dash and can also ctach as well as block in the backfield.

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3n26z6Zr98

http://www.wiuathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=4963&DB_OEM_ID=12000&ATCLID=631513Donald is ranked #23 RB as a 7th round to FA. He can show up as a FA to look at.

HOU-TEX
03-31-2009, 11:13 AM
It's not how often Slaton was used for me, it is 'the way he was used'. I don't want Slaton to be our pounder. I don't want him carrying the ball a bunch of times in a row. I'd rather more his 'touches' come in space rather than mostly running him up the gut. Screens, Flare outs, outside zone stuff...ect...

If you are not arguing that adding another back will keep him healthier then we have no issue.

I think everyone realizes we're in need of another quality RB. What round in the draft to make the RB pick is where the differing opinions arise. I think it will be the second day when we run a RB's name up to the podium.

badboy
03-31-2009, 11:14 AM
Our offense was statistically successful last season. But do you remember how often Slaton was stopped dead at the line of scrimmage or for minus yardage. One thing the team can do to improve the running game, and save some hard knocks on our RB's, is to strengthen the middle of the line.

If Jonathan Luigs falls to us in the 3rd round, we shouldn't hesitate to take him.

I'd then take RB in the 4th and the one I have my eye on is Gatrell Johnson. Badboy, you have Johnson down for the 6th round. I wouldn't be certain he would stay on the board that long. I think he's a riser and I'm worried he may slip into the 3rd and not fall to us in the next round.

I currently have : 1st : Mathews; 2nd : CB Coye Francis; 3rd : Luigs and 4th : Johnson.

With our free agent signings, this addresses everyone of our needs except safety.Hmm, teams can stop our RB but we can't stop theirs. It is a quandry. Seems we need a big old NT to stop theirs and a strong RB with a bit of speed to score more. Our ground conversions in RZ for points wasn't very good. Yet, folks are wanting CBs, Lbs and safeties on 1st day. Hmmm.

Ole Miss Texan
03-31-2009, 11:22 AM
If you look at Kubiak's comments regarding the RBs as a whole, I think drafting one earlier than later could be warranted.

He discusses in a perfect world, the lead back would get 22 touches per game and the second guy 10-12. He also stated that he wants a RB that has the ability to go in and start some games. I don't necessarily think he's looking for a #2 runningback. I get the idea our RBs, hypothetically, would be a 1a and 1b. He wants both guys to have the ability to start and have the 22 touches per game. Keep in mind, touches refer to carries and receptions.

While I've been against a 1st round RB, this is a year I could actually see one taken. In my perfect world, we wouldn't... but I wouldn't throw a hissy fit if it happened. I don't think Slaton will be the 16 game starter with 22 touches per game. I think he and the new RB will both get their share of starts and touches. The depth chart is fluid and can change on a daily basis.

If one back is having a better week in practice while the other is struggling... said back will start. just my humble opinion. I'm still getting back to wanting to trade down and take the RB, LB or DB.

Polo
03-31-2009, 11:24 AM
Right now I'm looking at:

1) Wells/Moreno

2) Laurinitis/Sean Smith/Alphonso Smith/Chung

3)Michael Hamlin/Gerald Mcrath

In bold would be my first choice, and then so on...

If this happened in any of the combinations I'd be really happy.

Polo
03-31-2009, 11:30 AM
I think everyone realizes we're in need of another quality RB. What round in the draft to make the RB pick is where the differing opinions arise.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

If you know we need another "quality" RB why would you risk waiting until the later rounds to get one when you know that it's something you "need" ?

.

HOU-TEX
03-31-2009, 11:38 AM
This doesn't make any sense to me.

If you know we need another "quality" RB why would you risk waiting until the later rounds to get one when you know that it's something you "need" ?

.

Bigger needs are on defense. Plus, a second day RB could easily come in to this system and produce right away versus the odds of a 2nd day defensive player coming in and producing at the same level.

badboy
03-31-2009, 11:43 AM
If you look at Kubiak's comments regarding the RBs as a whole, I think drafting one earlier than later could be warranted.

He discusses in a perfect world, the lead back would get 22 touches per game and the second guy 10-12. He also stated that he wants a RB that has the ability to go in and start some games. I don't necessarily think he's looking for a #2 runningback. I get the idea our RBs, hypothetically, would be a 1a and 1b. He wants both guys to have the ability to start and have the 22 touches per game. Keep in mind, touches refer to carries and receptions.

While I've been against a 1st round RB, this is a year I could actually see one taken. In my perfect world, we wouldn't... but I wouldn't throw a hissy fit if it happened. I don't think Slaton will be the 16 game starter with 22 touches per game. I think he and the new RB will both get their share of starts and touches. The depth chart is fluid and can change on a daily basis.

If one back is having a better week in practice while the other is struggling... said back will start. just my humble opinion. I'm still getting back to wanting to trade down and take the RB, LB or DB.I agree. Also, could see a heavier rotation of backs, depending on whom is on roster. Having a strong back that can block such as a Jennings or Gartrell Johnson and Slaton in back field same time is intriguing.

Polo
03-31-2009, 11:46 AM
Plus, a second day RB could easily come in to this system and produce right away versus the odds of a 2nd day defensive player coming in and producing at the same level.

I don't think Kubiak, the Old Denver Coaching staff or any ZBS team really feels that way.

Why would Kubiak sign Ahman Green, Chris Brown and then take Slaton in the third if he felt like just any 'ol back from later rounds would do?

Why would ATL sign Michael Turner for all that money?

Why did Denver go after Travis Henry and take Portis in the 2nd?

No one is taking late round picks that they expect to play intergal roles with their teams on regular downs. If they happen to excede expectations, great.

I think that believing that late round RB's can just be plugged into this system is overrated. Especially in a year where there aren't a lot of of them that overly impress.

Thorn
03-31-2009, 11:46 AM
Right now we have Chris Brown (worthless) Moats (untested) and Slaton on the official roster. If anything happens to Slaton, we are in deep do-do. I can see them taking a RB in the 2nd round. I still think the 1st round will be for a safety, CB, or LB though.

beerlover
03-31-2009, 11:53 AM
this will mark Gary Kubiak's 4th draft w/Texans.
2006 drafted Wali Lundy 7th rd.
2007 did not address RB in draft
2008 drafted Steve Slaton in 3rd
2009 yet to be dertermined


doesn't take a NASA rocket scientist to figure out productivity rises directly proportional to talent :shades:

El Tejano
03-31-2009, 12:09 PM
This guy agrees with you Polo

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/03/nfp-three-round-mock-draft/

I could in no way be upset with this kind of pick.

El Tejano
03-31-2009, 12:24 PM
Last year when we took Slaton in the third we had Ahman Green, Chris Taylor, Darius Walker and Chris Brown. I don't think that their intention was to rely on Slaton who was a third round pick.



What you have said here may have more to it than you think. When was Chris Brown acquired? Before or after the draft?

If before, then that kind of gives a look at how the Texans draft. If they are putting alot of bodies at one position they can now go with the BPA in the later part of the draft at need positions. If this is true, you could see us drafting a DE or DT sometime in the 3rd or later.

If Chris Brown was acquired after the draft, that might show how they would get the best player on their board and add for need with what's left in FA.

El Tejano
03-31-2009, 12:58 PM
[QUOTE=pbat488;1150756]We have the same running attack Denver used for years and they made big time contributors out of Terrell Davis (6th I think), Olandis Gary, and Mike Anderson from Utah to name a few, and those three were taken in the 4th or later. QUOTE]

Out of curiosity, how long did it take for those guys to see the field?

76Texan
03-31-2009, 03:44 PM
Right now we have Chris Brown (worthless) Moats (untested) and Slaton on the official roster. If anything happens to Slaton, we are in deep do-do. I can see them taking a RB in the 2nd round. I still think the 1st round will be for a safety, CB, or LB though.
Moats is a decent back. He doesn't have Slaton's speed, but he has a good initial burst (4.49-40). He's not a game breaker, but he's good enough to be as a 3rd RB.
The one knock is his fumbling problem. His last 2 years in college (Louisian Tech) he had 16 fumbles.
In 05 with the Eagles, he had 3 fumbles in 59 touches.
Since then he hasn't fumbled in 51 touches.

I'd rather have a RB in the third or later.
There should still be one or two of them available.

Ole Miss Texan
03-31-2009, 03:49 PM
How do you guys feel about Houston native and Texas alum Chris Ogbonnaya? Most likely a later round pick. I could see him as possibly taking Moats place (not that we're necessarily trying to replace him). Worth a shot or not?

6'0 ft 220 lbs.

pbat488
03-31-2009, 04:25 PM
We have the same running attack Denver used for years and they made big time contributors out of Terrell Davis (6th I think), Olandis Gary, and Mike Anderson from Utah to name a few, and those three were taken in the 4th or later.

Out of curiosity, how long did it take for those guys to see the field?

Well, I know TD was drafted in the 6th round and was like the 5th string back at the starting of training camp and ended up as the starter for the regular season. Mike Anderson was also a 6th or 7th rounder and became the starter his rookie year. Olandis was a mid-round pick and became a starter after TD started having knee problems in '99.

All 3 had big impacts their rookie year, and Anderson was ROY.

Polo
03-31-2009, 04:27 PM
Hopefully we aren't banking on that to happen.

76Texan
03-31-2009, 04:30 PM
How do you guys feel about Houston native and Texas alum Chris Ogbonnaya? Most likely a later round pick. I could see him as possibly taking Moats place (not that we're necessarily trying to replace him). Worth a shot or not?

6'0 ft 220 lbs.

I haven't seen enough of him, but I notice in one game he was tackle by the ankles a few times too easily.

Doesn't look to have the quickness to get to the hole quick enough for our offense.

But he looks good out of the backfield though.

Kaiser Toro
03-31-2009, 06:53 PM
How do you guys feel about Houston native and Texas alum Chris Ogbonnaya? Most likely a later round pick. I could see him as possibly taking Moats place (not that we're necessarily trying to replace him). Worth a shot or not?

6'0 ft 220 lbs.

Would not mind him coming in as a UDFA.

TexansSeminole
03-31-2009, 07:05 PM
How do you guys feel about Houston native and Texas alum Chris Ogbonnaya? Most likely a later round pick. I could see him as possibly taking Moats place (not that we're necessarily trying to replace him). Worth a shot or not?

6'0 ft 220 lbs.

That's the guy from Elkins High right? If so, he put me on my ass in high school football.

CloakNNNdagger
03-31-2009, 07:23 PM
Familiar scenario?????

Third-down fun for Broncos' swing set (http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_11999033)


Back home at Dove Valley, running backs signed up in Lawrence Welk rhythm.

A one (Correll Buckhalter), and a two (J.J. Arrington), and a three (LaMont Jordan).

Out in the Broncos' audience, head scratching intensified. What exactly were they doing at running back?

The Broncos went through seven running backs last season because of injuries. The number seemed high until it became evident the Broncos' new administration of Josh McDaniels and Brian Xanders never met a free-agent running back they didn't like.

Buckhalter, Arrington and Jordan, all situational-type backs last season and for most of their careers, were plucked from the market. And the Broncos would have signed another backup running back, Derrick Ward, had they not run out of money.

Why so many rotational-type backs, after a season in which the team went through too many backs? In this case, misdirection leads to comprehension. The tendency is to look first for a No. 1 tailback. The 20-25 carry workhorse.

The offense McDaniels brought with him from New England concentrates on the back end of a tailback committee, the role reserved for third down. Or put another way, the down where drives are either killed or sustained. "One of the most difficult positions to play in this league anymore is the third-down back because of all the crazy looks you get from the defense and the blitzing that goes on," McDaniels said at the NFL owners meetings. "That's how you protect your quarterback against all these crazy looks that are going on, and they're just going to get crazier."


Any back who comes off an injury one year is automatically labeled a question mark the next. This leads to another reason why the Broncos went back crazy in free agency.

"I think we're all finding out each year how important it is to have multiple backs," McDaniels said. "Denver found out last year. We found out the same year. We were playing with BenJarvus Green-Ellis for three, four games there in the middle of the year as our starter. Originally, he was on our practice squad. So we've all found out that at that position, you better have as many as you can because that position gets hit on every play."

Ole Miss Texan
03-31-2009, 08:16 PM
Would not mind him coming in as a UDFA.
I think I've got fairly similar thoughts as most here. I could see him being a late rounder or undrafted. I'm thinking of the depth we've got now at RB plus the assumption we select a guy to split carries with Slaton... he'd most likely be on the practice squad. With another injury to Chris Brown or poor play by Moats, he essentially could get activated. Playing in TX, esp. his hometown may sound good for him if he's undrafted.

That's the guy from Elkins High right? If so, he put me on my ass in high school football.

Strake Jesuit... but I be he still put you on your ass. :neener:

The1ApplePie
03-31-2009, 08:23 PM
Go BPA. There are plenty of good defenders but they will all be gone by 15

All the DEs are one-trick ponies that probably won't see the field for the first two downs (Maybin, Brown, etc). Clay can rush the passer but thats it.

I'd rather have a complete player in the first, no matter what the position

bah007
03-31-2009, 10:42 PM
Ogbonnaya gives great value as a pass blocker and receiver out of the backfield.

I would have absolutely no problem bringing that guy in as a UDFA.

He is one of those guys that just does whatever he can to help his team. Played WR, LB, S, FB, and HB at different times while he was at Texas.

The1ApplePie
03-31-2009, 11:10 PM
Familiar scenario?????

With McDaniels spread offense every RB is basically a 3rd down back. Any Rb on the Denver roster that cannot catch will be gone (possibly to the Texans). If it wasn't for the Cutler boondogle, I would also say with 100% certainty that the Broncos would trade down in the first to take Percy Harvin

jppaul
04-01-2009, 10:46 PM
No I am not.. I like Goodson....he has the ability to hit the home run if he gets the screen pass and has the quicknes to work in the ZBS. I think he would go well with Slaton.

Maybe he would go well with Slaton, but there is the issue of value. Why buy a 90 Chrysler LeBaron for 25,000 when you can buy one for $ 450?

Although I will admit that without a doubt, there is not a slicker ride out there than a Cherry Red LeBaron Convertible with faded paint, and a windshield perfectly engineered to allow the wind to caress the bald spot of your average mid-life crisis burdened chicken hawk.

Anyway you get my point.:whip:

Polo
04-05-2009, 01:54 PM
ahem.....

So anybody wanna re-think their stance on this?

jppaul
04-05-2009, 07:16 PM
Nope I am good unless one of the first round backs falls to the second. For instance I would take Donald Brown if he fell to our place in the second.

HOU-TEX
04-06-2009, 10:36 AM
ahem.....

So anybody wanna re-think their stance on this?

Nope, I'm good. :)

Ole Miss Texan
04-06-2009, 10:48 AM
With the offseason additions, we've filled some needs/depth. I think we're going into the draft in a good position to select the best players available.

I can see RB being selected anywhere from 1st thru 4th rounds, due to our 'need' for another RB and the talent in this class. Good but not exceptional.

Donald Brown is still my hands down favorite RB in the draft. I think he provides us with a guy similar to Slaton (not quite the same long speed) but he's quick and I think has a little more power. I think they are very similar and Kubiak would be able to really use both of them as starters.

I also want to let you know I'm coming around on Beanie Wells. I still don't want him or another RB at 15- but if that's how the board sets up for us, I can't get that upset. Brown > Wells though imo.

Sure we can address RB later in the draft (which is something I usually would rather do). It's just a matter of how the board is set up when it's our pick at 15. We do know Kubiak has said he wants someone to compliment Steve (would prefer a bigger guy) but this RB obviously has to fit this teams scheme. He's also going to be a RB that isn't a true #2 backup... he's a guy that will get a decent number of carries each game and will most likely be used as a starter in some cases, giving Steve extra rest.

People who are against a RB in rounds 1 or 2, usually provide the reasoning that the guy is strictly going to be a backup to Slaton. I don't think that's the case. I think the two RBs will be used interchangeably, thus arises the need for a RB you can count on to start. I would rather pay the guy 3rd round money than 1st round money, that's for sure though. Steve's going to get a pay day in a year or two. We'll see if Kubiak/Smith keep him on the team at that point or not. All I know is if we get one of the early RBs, I think our RB committee would be one of the best in the league.

painekiller
04-06-2009, 12:40 PM
Donald Brown is still my hands down favorite RB in the draft. I think he provides us with a guy similar to Slaton (not quite the same long speed) but he's quick and I think has a little more power. I think they are very similar and Kubiak would be able to really use both of them as starters.



I have been a big supporter of Brown and Matthews, so this hard for me. I watched the Indy game again yesterday and Diles looked real good at SAM. That was only his 4th game as a starter.

So I am again going to start the Brown in the 1st banter. Because Kubiak and company seem to be talking about everything else in the 1st I see a trade down or two and Donald Brown as our RB who shares the load with Slaton.

Then a guy like Javarris Williams later in the draft to cement the position. Three young studs at RB and this team is set for a few years until they start to break down.

Polo
04-06-2009, 12:54 PM
Then a guy like Javarris Williams later in the draft to cement the position. Three young studs at RB and this team is set for a few years until they start to break down.

That's what I'm hoping for as well..

Well, not those players...but I want us to draft a back in the first or second and then take another one in the 5th,6th or 7th...

WolverineFan
04-06-2009, 01:27 PM
That's what I'm hoping for as well..

Well, not those players...but I want us to draft a back in the first or second and then take another one in the 5th,6th or 7th...

So you want to take 2 RB's in the draft including one on the first day of the draft? So what do you plan on doing about the defense?

rollinstone18
04-06-2009, 01:47 PM
I wouldn't be oppossed to drafting Wells or Moreno even if we can't trade back. Both are good value at 15, perhaps a bit of a reach but no more of a reach than Cushing or Matthews. A back that can run inside, consistently pick up 3rd and short and punch it in on the goaline will help our defense. And if Slaton goes down and misses a few weeks, we'd still have a top shelf back.

Still, I think the plan should be to target Jenkins. Even if we have to trade up ahead of New Orleans.

Polo
04-06-2009, 01:49 PM
So you want to take 2 RB's in the draft including one on the first day of the draft? So what do you plan on doing about the defense?

Beides the other 6 picks we have, I have no clue.

threetoedpete
04-06-2009, 01:55 PM
besides the other 6 picks we have, I have no clue.

http://ourlads.com/2009nflmockdraft.cfm?MockDraftID=6
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80f974f3&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

It'd have to be a very special back for them to pull the trigger on one that early.

This crew has never done it. They believe Steve is a front line seventeen touches a game back.....there will only be one, and only one, in the end making first round elite back money.

threetoedpete
04-06-2009, 01:58 PM
I see almost zero chance we draft a back before the 3rd round myself. Not only am I tired of seeing a rotten defense, I think the team is a bit tired of having to score 30 points to win a game also.

Or...having a seventeen point lead with eight eight teen left in the game....over a team you've only defeated once in twelve tries....only to watch the lead melt away into oblivion ?

Polo
04-06-2009, 02:08 PM
Or...having a seventeen point lead with eight eight teen left in the game....over a team you've only defeated once in twelve tries....only to watch the lead melt away into oblivion ?

That sounds like something a dependable running game can cure.

Polo
04-06-2009, 02:13 PM
http://ourlads.com/2009nflmockdraft.cfm?MockDraftID=6
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80f974f3&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

It'd have to be a very special back for them to pull the trigger on one that early.

This crew has never done it. They believe Steve is a front line seventeen touches a game back.....there will only be one, and only one, in the end making first round elite back money.

I agree with you there...And that is why I initially thought there was no way they'd pick a back before the third...

Simply because they wouldn't want to pay a rookie more than they are paying Steve. But the more I thought about it the more I realized that is silly. Since Kubiak has gotten here he's tried to get the best players on the field. Not too many times where I thought a back-up should have been playing over a starter...To me that means that while Kubiak likes certain players, he doesn't really put any of them over whats best for the team..

Goldensilence
04-06-2009, 02:29 PM
I agree with you there...And that is why I initially thought there was no way they'd pick a back before the third...

Simply because they wouldn't want to pay a rookie more than they are paying Steve. But the more I thought about it the more I realized that is silly. Since Kubiak has gotten here he's tried to get the best players on the field. Not too many times where I thought a back-up should have been playing over a starter...To me that means that while Kubiak likes certain players, he doesn't really put any of them over whats best for the team..

Good points. The other thing I keep in mind is how much better this offense looks with a not only a viable running game but, an explosive one. Even when it was Ron Dayne Kubiak is dedicated to the running game and passing from it. We take a huge step back offensively if Slaton( I'm not even religious but i pray he doesn't) go down, who takes up the carries? We can hope Brown is healthy enough to go, and as much as i like Moats(even since he was with the Eagles) he's not a guy who can carry the load. That's what concerns me the most regarding drafting a RB.

If we want to keep a top 5 offense I think the staff needs to think hard about where and who they draft at RB.

Polo
04-06-2009, 02:35 PM
We take a huge step back offensively if Slaton( I'm not even religious but i pray he doesn't) go down, who takes up the carries?

Yep...

As of right now, we are more thin at RB than we were at this time last year...

I am not ruling out the Texans waiting until the third to grab a back and I wouldn't be upset if that's where they decided to go...But If they did wait until the third I'd definitely want another one sometime after that...

threetoedpete
04-06-2009, 02:38 PM
Those guys combined to miss nearly 30 games. If you put all of those guys on the field, healthy for 16 games, with Smith, Wilson, and a 2nd round safety

This all assumes that even when you have them all back.....they will approach the middle of the pack and make all sixteen games.....something just judging by their free agent signings they are not prepared to do. Every indication so far....the hiring of Kollar, the singing of the defensive depth, suggests that they will put their money early on the defensive side of the ball. And the last thing they are going to do is draft a RB high..on the first day. They are set up to hold the model Gibbs has been using ...like forever. Now if Slaton was dinged and they were uncertain what his status was for September, you'd have a case. But he isn't and you don't. The reason they lost the rosencopter game, wasn't Rosencopter....the reason they lost the rosencoter game, as with all the other seven...they had no speed in the front seven on defense and they could not defend the edges on third, fourth and short. They had no speed on the outside.....and when they sent five and six....with Dilles and Adibi there ....no one got there. The colts loaded the box....and shut down the attempt to run out the clock. Beaner Wells or No beaner Wells, Knowshown Moreno no Moreno,Donald Brown no Donald Brown , the results would of been the same with nine guys in the box. Once the OC quit throwing on first down to set up the run, the game was lost. Now you are suggesting that we live with the two injuries of Dilles and Adibi...and try to luck this thing out. We've done this before and it hasn't worked out for us. I can't remember a time it did work out for us when we gambled that way. And I can't believe now....for what ever reason you believe it will work out of us now in '09. You're crying for DB, a better safety.......well there he is sitting at fifteen....all 240 pounds of him running a 4.6 forty, with great hands....elite TE hands. If he's there and they pass him by....take the big power o back believing he can grind it out behind a ZBS blocking o-line at the end of a game.....we'll deserve what we're fixing to receive.

Can't argue against Moreno or Donald Brown....they are both great backs....Our problem isn't a front line back. It's protecting the QB and becoming quicker on the outside on defense....allowing our young DBs to make more Plays. And they both do not fit the model that this staff has used for fifteen years. Brown fits one cut and go.....but unless he slips to 46...Possible sure.....probable....not a chance.

threetoedpete
04-06-2009, 03:01 PM
That sounds like something a dependable running game can cure.

Well Polo....they dominated the game from the start of the second quarter....until the eight eighteen mark of the forth quarter... running the ball....I'm just trying to figure out how anyone of the highly rated backs from this class...under your arguments, would of changed the results of that game as well as the other games where we struggled on defense, like in Oakland. Now they could redraft the o line and switch to a power o game like the Giants, Steelers, and Dallas uses. No chance.

My point is there is only a hand full of guys who have the chance to come in on defense and make the defense have a significant jump in production. And you and cheese heads argument is that with a front line back....behind this o line....we will be able to protect the defense....which you both are assuming ...everyone will be there and at 100% by September.... and with the system and the coaching switch....we will get better. Sorta like HWSNBN in reverse ? And what I'm saying do not gamble....draft defense play makers. Then you will not have to worry about protecting anything. Give the new guy better weapons above and beyond what the last guy had ? Then you don't have to gamble on anything. The second day backs will be fine.

So Texans Chick....If we're that concerned about injuries....under your scenario, shouldn't the move be trade two high picks and draft the best QB we can get our hands on ? That is what you saying with Slaton. I didn't say it. Kubiak said it. Steve Slaton is a twenty touches per game front line RB. I got it.

And more importantly....as long as that Aggie has his neck bowed and he believes it....there's not a chance in hades we'll draft a RB in the first.

Polo
04-06-2009, 03:32 PM
Well Polo....they dominated the game from the start of the second quarter....until the eight eighteen mark of the forth quarter... running the ball....I'm just trying to figure out how anyone of the highly rated backs from this class...under your arguments, would of changed the results of that game as well as the other games where we struggled on defense, like in Oakland. Now they could redraft the o line and switch to a power o game like the Giants, Steelers, and Dallas uses. No chance.

My point is there is only a hand full of guys who have the chance to come in on defense and make the defense have a significant jump in production. And you and cheese heads argument is that with a front line back....behind this o line....we will be able to protect the defense....which you both are assuming ...everyone will be there and at 100% by September.... and with the system and the coaching switch....we will get better. Sorta like HWSNBN in reverse ? And what I'm saying do not gamble....draft defense play makers. Then you will not have to worry about protecting anything. Give the new guy better weapons above and beyond what the last guy had ? Then you don't have to gamble on anything. The second day backs will be fine.

So Texans Chick....If we're that concerned about injuries....under your scenario, shouldn't the move be trade two high picks and draft the best QB we can get our hands on ? That is what you saying with Slaton. I didn't say it. Kubiak said it. Steve Slaton is a twenty touches per game front line RB. I got it.

And more importantly....as long as that Aggie has his neck bowed and he believes it....there's not a chance in hades we'll draft a RB in the first.


I don't think our defense will be better because of the co-ordinator switch. I didn't really have a problem with Smith although I felt like an upgrade would be beneficial. I think our defense will be better for one reason....No Morlon. I didn't care for Weaver either, but Morlon really sucked @ WLB...

And I actually can see what you mean about picking talent on defense and hoping that trumps possibly bad coaching...But there is no guarantee that the defensive player you draft will produce any more than the coach you hire...

What I have seen though is that the Texans have replace almost the entire defensive staff. They've signed two LB's, a starting DE and they've resigned some safeties...If they thought that the coaching last year was a big problem, then they may infact like a lot of the players over there...who knows...

If you are going to take Kubiak at face value like you are with the Slaton 22 carry thing, then why not take him at face value when he talks about the defense...He's pretty much said Diles is the starter at SLB and Adibi and June will compete at Will...

That could very well be a smoke screen, but couldn't saying Slaton is his "front-line" 22 carry a game back be one as well?

dalemurphy
04-06-2009, 03:37 PM
Well Polo....they dominated the game from the start of the second quarter....until the eight eighteen mark of the forth quater... running the ball....I'm just trying to figure out how anyone of the highly rated backs would of changed the results of that game as well as the other games where we struggled on defense, like in Oakland. Now they could redraft the o line and switch to a power o game like the Giants, Steelers, and Dallas uses. No chance.

My point is there is only a hand full of guys who have the chance to come in on defense and make the defense have a significant jump in production. And you and cheese heads argument is that with a front line back....behind this o line....we will be able to protect the defense....which you both are assuming ...everyone will be there and at 100% by September.... and with the system and the coaching switch....we will get better. Sorta like HWSNBN in reverse ? And what I'm saying do not gamble....draft defense play makers. Then you will not have to worry about protecting anything. Give the new guy better weapons above and beyond what the last guy had ? Then you don't have to gamble on anything. The second day backs will be fine.

So Texans Chick....If we're that concerned about injuries....under your scenario, shouldn't the move be trade two high picks and draft the best QB we can get our hands on ? That is what you saying with Slaton. I didn't say it. Kubiak said it. Steve Slaton is a twenty touches per game front line RB. I got it.

And more importantly....as long as that Aggie has his neck bowed and he believes it....there's not a chance in hades we'll draft a RB in the first.


5 of our past 6 first round picks have been on the defense. The two highest dollar free agents have been on defense. Demeco was the first pick of the second round. Jacques Reeves was our highest paid FA acquisition last year. Antonio Smith was our highest paid FA acquisition this year. Clearly, the reason why our defense has struggled so much is not because of a lack of resources going into the personnel.

Now, that doesn't mean that we should ignore the defensive personnel to get better. What I think it does mean is that our problem on defense hasn't primarily been the lack of talent. As fans, I think it is extremely difficult for us to accurately assess individual players ability that have been playing in our system. It's difficult because it's hard to know the details of how much impact poor coaching and gameplanning has had on their performance. Clearly, though, we can say, as a general rule, the poor coaching has led to some of the players underforming. Well, the organization has now addressed the coaching on defense.

I think the prudent thing to do in the draft is to:
1. take the best players available that fit our system
2. draft players at positions where we don't have adequate talent/depth.

From my limited perspective, it appears to me that the one position on the team where we have the least amount of talent/depth is at RB, followed closely by interior Oline, and then safety. So, what does that mean we should do in the draft?

1. We need to exit the draft with a RB that we are confident will contribute this season and compliment Steve Slaton.
2. We need another RB with enough ability to serve as a ST player and a guy that can step in and get 12 carries in a week where Slaton and our primary backup is banged up.
3. There are some excellent C prospects in the 2nd-4th rounds... many of them could also play guard. It makes a lot of sense to purpose to get one of these guys to backup Briesel and Myers and eventually be able to push one of those players for playing time... or, be able to take over for Pitts if we don't re-sign him next year.
4. Right now, Brandon Harrison is the primary FS backup and our top two SS are a 6th rounder from last season with questionable speed and a guy approaching his mid 30s. We need to come out of the draft with an athletic playmaker who is ready to see significant playing time by 2010.
5. We need defensive playmakers. If they see a difference maker on the board at any defensive position other than MLB, he should seriously be considered.

Where I disagree with you and others, is the idea that because our defense was bad last year, we have to take a defensive player in the first round. To me that is a very simplistic and unthoughtful rule to follow. I think there are many variables that should go into a decision for any draft pick. Certainly, though, they need to come out of the draft confident that the talent level on defense has been improved.

threetoedpete
04-06-2009, 03:58 PM
From my limited perspective, it appears to me that the one position on the team where we have the least amount of talent/depth is at RB, followed closely by interior Oline, and then safety. So, what does that mean we should do in the draft?

And I agree with that....what we are arguing about here is where you place the risk. Polo and cheese are saying send the draft capitol on the guy getting 10 to twelve touches a game.....Texan Chick is saying it's only a matter of time untill Steve Slaton is injured. And I'm saying ...what makes sense to me....is spend the draft capitol, the high draft capitol, on the guys who have the best chance to make this defense as close to the middle of the pack as we can get. All of them have a bust factor. No Matter where you draft them. I just believe with our staffs history...it is much more likely they can find a running back who can fit in the second day....than it will be that they will find defense play makers. I do not see the point of drafting second day guys who'll struggle in the first place to make a roster spot ...much less start for us.

I have no problem with Dilles except for the freak nature of the injury. Adibi is reported up twenty pounds. Until I see it on the field.....you fix the deficiencies on the edge on the front seven....first above all else. It killed us all year long. And MJD and Chirs Johnson are both still in the division. I draft to defeat that first....above all else. Because if we do not sweep two of three division foes....we can't win the division. And unless we win the division , they aren't going to the dance.

El Tejano
04-06-2009, 03:59 PM
Or...having a seventeen point lead with eight eight teen left in the game....over a team you've only defeated once in twelve tries....only to watch the lead melt away into oblivion ?

No joke with like 4 something left in that game our defense had Indy 4th and 7 at the 15 yard line and we give up the TD. The one thing the announcer did say was " Houston has to feel good about getting pressure from the front 4 and being able to drop everyone back in coverage." Of course it was a TE who scored the TD. Wanna guess whose man? Let's just say if Adibi was there, this game would've been won.

threetoedpete
04-06-2009, 04:12 PM
5 of our past 6 first round picks have been on the defense. The two highest dollar free agents have been on defense. Demeco was the first pick of the second round. Jacques Reeves was our highest paid FA acquisition last year. Antonio Smith was our highest paid FA acquisition this year. Clearly, the reason why our defense has struggled so much is not because of a lack of resources going into the personnel.


So are you saying now...with what we know.....you believe that Babins and Travis Johnson were elite players. Not only you...I see this argument all over the web. Can we now agree that Babin was an out right bust and that T.J. was a guy who got drafted at least twenty picks too High ? I'm sorry this argument is old and misleading. And when you factor in the first two picks, an out right lie.

The only two players which panned out the first two drafts we A.J. and Pitts....both offensive players.

And what is simplistic Dale is watching the defense for a year....reading the year end stats....and trying to make an argument for an offensive player. Except for the green zone and short yardage,....the offense is fine.

What is not fine is the number of times we were were attacked on fourth ond one and third and one and they didn't have the speed on defense on the outside to defeat that. They attacked the edges on us Dale....not the middle. And....if you do not address this...you're going to get to relive all over again in 2009.

Kaiser Toro
04-06-2009, 04:21 PM
5 of our past 6 first round picks have been on the defense. The two highest dollar free agents have been on defense. Demeco was the first pick of the second round. Jacques Reeves was our highest paid FA acquisition last year. Antonio Smith was our highest paid FA acquisition this year. Clearly, the reason why our defense has struggled so much is not because of a lack of resources going into the personnel.

Now, that doesn't mean that we should ignore the defensive personnel to get better. What I think it does mean is that our problem on defense hasn't primarily been the lack of talent. As fans, I think it is extremely difficult for us to accurately assess individual players ability that have been playing in our system. It's difficult because it's hard to know the details of how much impact poor coaching and gameplanning has had on their performance. Clearly, though, we can say, as a general rule, the poor coaching has led to some of the players underforming. Well, the organization has now addressed the coaching on defense.

I think the prudent thing to do in the draft is to:
1. take the best players available that fit our system
2. draft players at positions where we don't have adequate talent/depth.

From my limited perspective, it appears to me that the one position on the team where we have the least amount of talent/depth is at RB, followed closely by interior Oline, and then safety. So, what does that mean we should do in the draft?

1. We need to exit the draft with a RB that we are confident will contribute this season and compliment Steve Slaton.
2. We need another RB with enough ability to serve as a ST player and a guy that can step in and get 12 carries in a week where Slaton and our primary backup is banged up.
3. There are some excellent C prospects in the 2nd-4th rounds... many of them could also play guard. It makes a lot of sense to purpose to get one of these guys to backup Briesel and Myers and eventually be able to push one of those players for playing time... or, be able to take over for Pitts if we don't re-sign him next year.
4. Right now, Brandon Harrison is the primary FS backup and our top two SS are a 6th rounder from last season with questionable speed and a guy approaching his mid 30s. We need to come out of the draft with an athletic playmaker who is ready to see significant playing time by 2010.
5. We need defensive playmakers. If they see a difference maker on the board at any defensive position other than MLB, he should seriously be considered.

Where I disagree with you and others, is the idea that because our defense was bad last year, we have to take a defensive player in the first round. To me that is a very simplistic and unthoughtful rule to follow. I think there are many variables that should go into a decision for any draft pick. Certainly, though, they need to come out of the draft confident that the talent level on defense has been improved.

Our defense was bad last year? How about our defense has never been good in our franchise's history. Moreover, in our short history we went from a 3-4 to a 4-3 and are going on DC #3 while having to deal with Casserly in charge and Greer's team scouting talent. Bush is as unproven a commodity as any of our defensive players drafted early or acquired via FA.

I concur with your opinion on needs and rationale. However, your consistent narrative on the defense being fine based on spend and draft picks is interesting, yet directionally askew.

If the first pick is on offense I hope it is Unger, Pettigrew, Moreno or an OT that drops. But as I have opined I do not see Robinson and/or Ryans back with us next year, and therefore believe that we will be looking at a playmaker on D.

dalemurphy
04-06-2009, 04:24 PM
So are you saying now...with what we know.....you believe that Babins and Travis Johnson were elite players. Not only you...I see this argument all over the web. Can we now agree that Babin was an out right bust and that T.J. was a guy who got drafted at least twenty picks to High ? I'm sorry this argument is old and misleading. And when you factor in the first two picks, an out right lie.

The only two players which panned out the first two drafts we A.J. and Pitts....both offensive players.

Exactly. So, there is a danger in being determined to draft a player at a certain position simply because that side of the ball was poor the year before. And, Babin and TJ prove the fallacy of your argument. Drafting a defensive player in the first round doesn't mean that he will improve the defense. I believe that draft picks are too important to an organization to add risk to them by pre-determining what position or what side of the ball a particular pick will address. Instead, the organization needs to take a holistic view of the draft and make sure it comes out of the draft with players it feels good about, particularly at the positions where we need the most help... Why on earth do I care if we get a LB in the 1st or the 4th round if he is someone that will make the team better?

dalemurphy
04-06-2009, 04:30 PM
However, your consistent narrative on the defense being fine based on spend and draft picks is interesting, yet directionally askew.

.

That's not my argument. My argument is that the reason the defense is bad is not because the organization has not spent adequate resources on the defensive personnel.

If the defense's poor play is not a result of the organization neglecting players in the early rounds of the draft, then I think it's a fallacy to assert that the solution to the defense's poor play is to continue the same trend in the draft (drafting defensive players in the 1st round).

WolverineFan
04-06-2009, 04:39 PM
Beides the other 6 picks we have, I have no clue.

6 picks means nothing if you don't use them for the right reason. We could have three 1st round picks, but if we used them all on offense it would do nothing to help out the team. Yea we would have an explosive offense, but our defense would still suck.

We need a CB or LB in the 1st round and a CB or LB in the 2nd round. We need immediate impact players on defense and drafting a RB on the 1st day would seriously hinder that. You can find good defenders later in the draft, but they will most likely not start. I'm all for getting depth late in the draft, but we need to get some impact guys on the defensive side of the ball early.

I actually like WalterFootball's scenario where we trade our 1st rd pick (#15) & 2nd rd pick (#46) to the Eagles for their two 1st's (#21 & #28). That way we could take a LB like Matthews and a CB like Butler or Smith in the 1st round. Immediate impact.

dalemurphy
04-06-2009, 04:54 PM
6 picks means nothing if you don't use them for the right reason. We could have three 1st round picks, but if we used them all on offense it would do nothing to help out the team. Yea we would have an explosive offense, but our defense would still suck.

I am assuming you're going for hyperbole here. Because this is a ridiculous statement. Our offense committed too many turnovers and we were 17th in the NFL in points scored. Not only that, we were very fortunate that our starting RB, starting WRs, entire starting OL, starting TE played all 16 games. That will not happen again. We are going to have injuries. Not only that, but even healthy, we didn't score that many points. Drafting an elite RB, drafting the best C/G in the draft, and adding a weapon like Maclin would certainly help this team.

All that being said, I want the team to draft a defensive player if he's the top guy on their board. I think your expectations are pretty silly if you expect any CB in this draft to immediate take over and upgrade the defense. Reeves and Dunta Robinson are better CBs at this point in their careers than any CB in this draft will be as a rookie.

And again, it would be poor management on the part of Rick Smith if he were to pre-determine what position he was going to draft in round one and round two. And it would be even more ridiculous if he pre-determined not to draft anyone on offense on the first day no matter who was there. If you can't see that, then clearly you've pre-determined to ignore reason.

Texecutioner
04-06-2009, 04:59 PM
I am assuming you're going for hyperbole here. Because this is a ridiculous statement. Our offense committed too many turnovers and we were 17th in the NFL in points scored. Not only that, we were very fortunate that our starting RB, starting WRs, entire starting OL, starting TE played all 16 games. That will not happen again. We are going to have injuries. Not only that, but even healthy, we didn't score that many points. Drafting an elite RB, drafting the best C/G in the draft, and adding a weapon like Maclin would certainly help this team.

All that being said, I want the team to draft a defensive player if he's the top guy on their board. I think your expectations are pretty silly if you expect any CB in this draft to immediate take over and upgrade the defense. Reeves and Dunta Robinson are better CBs at this point in their careers than any CB in this draft will be as a rookie.

And again, it would be poor management on the part of Rick Smith if he were to pre-determine what position he was going to draft in round one and round two. And it would be even more ridiculous if he pre-determined not to draft anyone on offense on the first day no matter who was there. If you can't see that, then clearly you've pre-determined to ignore reason.

Good post Dale Murphy. Very good analysis.

WolverineFan
04-06-2009, 05:08 PM
I am assuming you're going for hyperbole here. Because this is a ridiculous statement. Our offense committed too many turnovers and we were 17th in the NFL in points scored. Not only that, we were very fortunate that our starting RB, starting WRs, entire starting OL, starting TE played all 16 games. That will not happen again. We are going to have injuries. Not only that, but even healthy, we didn't score that many points. Drafting an elite RB, drafting the best C/G in the draft, and adding a weapon like Maclin would certainly help this team.

All that being said, I want the team to draft a defensive player if he's the top guy on their board. I think your expectations are pretty silly if you expect any CB in this draft to immediate take over and upgrade the defense. Reeves and Dunta Robinson are better CBs at this point in their careers than any CB in this draft will be as a rookie.

And again, it would be poor management on the part of Rick Smith if he were to pre-determine what position he was going to draft in round one and round two. And it would be even more ridiculous if he pre-determined not to draft anyone on offense on the first day no matter who was there. If you can't see that, then clearly you've pre-determined to ignore reason.

I was merely trying to prove a point. I forgot who mentioned it, but somebody was talking about drafting 2 RB's in the draft and I asked him what about the defense and his repsonse was we have 6 other picks. I was merely pointing out to him that just because we will have 6 leftover picks does not mean we can fix our defense with those picks.

WolverineFan
04-06-2009, 05:14 PM
All that being said, I want the team to draft a defensive player if he's the top guy on their board. I think your expectations are pretty silly if you expect any CB in this draft to immediate take over and upgrade the defense. Reeves and Dunta Robinson are better CBs at this point in their careers than any CB in this draft will be as a rookie.

And again, it would be poor management on the part of Rick Smith if he were to pre-determine what position he was going to draft in round one and round two. And it would be even more ridiculous if he pre-determined not to draft anyone on offense on the first day no matter who was there. If you can't see that, then clearly you've pre-determined to ignore reason.

Malcolm Jenkins would walk in and take Reeves starting job no problem. Reeves is more suited to being a nickel CB. He has excellent coverage skills, but very poor ball skills. He always sticks to his man, but rarely knocks down a pass.

As for me determined to ignore reason that is not the case. It is my philosophy that you need to go into the draft with a plan and if I were the Texans GM my plan would be to leave the first day of the draft with a CB and a LB.

However that does not mean that those are the only 2 positions that I care about. If we took a CB in round 1 and there were no good LB's in round 2 I would not reach for a 3rd round prospect. I would go BPA at a position of need. If it is a RB or an offensive lineman so be it, but my main priorites are CB and strongside LB.

dalemurphy
04-06-2009, 06:04 PM
Malcolm Jenkins would walk in and take Reeves starting job no problem. Reeves is more suited to being a nickel CB. He has excellent coverage skills, but very poor ball skills. He always sticks to his man, but rarely knocks down a pass.

As for me determined to ignore reason that is not the case. It is my philosophy that you need to go into the draft with a plan and if I were the Texans GM my plan would be to leave the first day of the draft with a CB and a LB.

However that does not mean that those are the only 2 positions that I care about. If we took a CB in round 1 and there were no good LB's in round 2 I would not reach for a 3rd round prospect. I would go BPA at a position of need. If it is a RB or an offensive lineman so be it, but my main priorites are CB and strongside LB.

Perhaps that's true but a lot of NFL people think he doesn't have the speed to play CB in a system like ours. People, experts included, get so enamored with college football players as they enter the NFL. And, so often, they end up dead wrong about them. I think, with very few exceptions, that it is unrealistic to assume any college player can come in and be an above average NFL starter early in his career.

Looking at 2007's 1st round, I count 12-14 quality NFL starters out of 32. So, it seems a stretch to think that the Texans can draft in the middle or later part of the 1st round, limiting their choices to the defensive side of the ball, and get a player that immediately upgrades their starting defense. Of course it could happen, and I hope it does. I think the Texans should do one of two things when they're selecting in the first 3 rounds:
1. take the BPA, period!- that will limit mistakes and allow for a premium amount of talent to be on the roster and/or
2. Move into position to get good value for a player/players at a position with poor depth. With this method, perhaps the Texans don't draft a guy that wins the starting job his first year or two but he immediately improves the depth of the team and has upside that could make him a good NFL starter down the road. For example, I like the idea of the Texans drafting someone like Eric Wood in the second round. And, while perhaps he doesn't win a starting job over Briesel or CMyers, he has a chance to be very good in a couple years. In the meantime, when Briesel goes down with an ankle injury in week #4, instead of replacing him with Kasey Studdard we replace him with Eric Wood- and everyone is breathing a sigh of relief, especially Matt Schaub! This is the genesis for the argument to take a RB early. Our depth at RB is non-existent! And, not only are RBs prone to injury but the primary backup should be in the game for close to 30% of the snaps. On the other hand, if we draft a CB in the first round, that player will have very little positive impact on the team unless we are ravaged by injury or if the pick is a home run (see #1)... If the guy is a home run, in theory, he would be the BPA on our board. Our CB situation is very interesting. We have 4 players under 28 years old, with a lot of athleticism, and all of them should be ascending players. So, I don't take a CB unless he is BPA. LB is similar in this respect. DRyans, Adibi, and Diles are all 26 yrs old or young, they all have at least flashed on the field and are ascending players. Behind them we have some quality depth. So, I don't take a LB unless he's BPA. If you want to immediately improve the team, then you address the positions that lack depth: OC/OG, RB, Safety... does that make sense?


2007 First round
1(1) Oakland JaMarcus Russell QB LSU

2(2) Detroit Calvin Johnson WR Georgia Tech

3(3) Cleveland Joe Thomas OT Wisconsin

4(4) Tampa Bay Gaines Adams DE Clemson

5(5) Arizona Levi Brown OT Penn State

6(6) Washington LaRon Landry DB LSU

7(7) Minnesota Adrian Peterson RB Oklahoma

8(8) Atlanta (from Houston) Jamaal Anderson DE Arkansas

9(9) Miami Ted Ginn, Jr. WR Ohio State

10(10) Houston (from Atlanta) Amobi Okoye DT Louisville

11(11) San Francisco Patrick Willis LB Mississippi

12(12) Buffalo Marshawn Lynch RB California

13(13) St. Louis Adam Carriker DE Nebraska

14(14) NY Jets (from Carolina) Darrelle Revis DB Pittsburgh

15(15) Pittsburgh Lawrence Timmons LB Florida State

16(16) Green Bay Justin Harrell DT Tennessee

17(17) Denver (from Jacksonville) Jarvis Moss DE Florida

18(18) Cincinnati Leon Hall DB Michigan

19(19) Tennessee Michael Griffin DB Texas

20(20) NY Giants Aaron Ross DB Texas

21(21) Jacksonville (from Denver) Reggie Nelson DB Florida

22(22) Cleveland (from Dallas) Brady Quinn QB Notre Dame

23(23) Kansas City Dwayne Bowe WR LSU

24(24) New England (from Seattle) Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (FL)

25(25) Carolina (from N.Y. Jets) Jon Beason LB Miami (FL)

26(26) Dallas (from Philadelphia) Anthony Spencer LB Purdue

27(27) New Orleans Robert Meachem WR Tennessee

28(28) San Francisco (from New England) Joe Staley OT Central Michigan

29(29) Baltimore Ben Grubbs OG Auburn

30(30) San Diego Craig Davis WR LSU

31(31) Chicago Greg Olsen TE Miami (FL)

32(32) Indianapolis Anthony Gonzalez WR Ohio State

The1ApplePie
04-06-2009, 08:06 PM
I am of the belief that we should follow the Colts model. We build the offense to elite status, then get just enough defense to get by. Using a ton of high picks to try and turn the defense into something it will never be is pointless. The Texans will not be a No. 1 defense + power run team.

I'm not sold on Harvin but a guy like Maclin could do wonders to open up the offense. If Maclin, Matthews, and Cush are all three there at 15, Maclin is BPA by a significant margin

The Pencil Neck
04-06-2009, 09:37 PM
I am of the belief that we should follow the Colts model. We build the offense to elite status, then get just enough defense to get by. Using a ton of high picks to try and turn the defense into something it will never be is pointless. The Texans will not be a No. 1 defense + power run team.

I'm not sold on Harvin but a guy like Maclin could do wonders to open up the offense. If Maclin, Matthews, and Cush are all three there at 15, Maclin is BPA by a significant margin

You really think that Maclin is going to drop to 15?

TexansSeminole
04-06-2009, 09:45 PM
You really think that Maclin is going to drop to 15?

I think it is possible. Depends on how many of these tackles and defensive end/linebackers come off the board. If Oher, Monroe, Smith (1 and 2), Orakpo, and Brown are all off the board by 15, Maclin could be the guy to fall. Add Maybin in there and the possibly only increases.

TexansSeminole
04-06-2009, 09:50 PM
Malcolm Jenkins would walk in and take Reeves starting job no problem. Reeves is more suited to being a nickel CB. He has excellent coverage skills, but very poor ball skills. He always sticks to his man, but rarely knocks down a pass.

As for me determined to ignore reason that is not the case. It is my philosophy that you need to go into the draft with a plan and if I were the Texans GM my plan would be to leave the first day of the draft with a CB and a LB.

However that does not mean that those are the only 2 positions that I care about. If we took a CB in round 1 and there were no good LB's in round 2 I would not reach for a 3rd round prospect. I would go BPA at a position of need. If it is a RB or an offensive lineman so be it, but my main priorites are CB and strongside LB.


I'm not sure I agree with that. Reeves is much faster than Jenkins and while he did give up some long plays last year he broke alot of passes up as well. I think he is more suited for deep routes and man coverage than Jenkins. Jenkins is a guy I'd like to see play nickel his rookie year and sit in the flats on cover 3 and cover 2. He can break on passes when he is facing the quarterback and he is a good tackler.

Despite my ideas for Jenkins, I haven't been interested in a first round cornerback unless we were going to get rid of Dunta. I think Molden still needs to be tested and I still think Bennett and Reeves can develop into quality starters. Bennett was a quality starter in the end of his rookie year and during some stretches of his sopohmore year, he just needs to be more consistent.

Polo
04-07-2009, 08:50 AM
If the first pick is on offense I hope it is Unger, Pettigrew, Moreno or an OT that drops. But as I have opined I do not see Robinson and/or Ryans back with us next year, and therefore believe that we will be looking at a playmaker on D.

I can see that.

But I still kinda disagree. If there is no defensive "playmaker" available when they are up to pick, then it makes no sense to grab a guy just because he plays defense...It really all depends on how the Texans rate these guys...

Besides that, Kubiak doesn't really have the luxury to worry about "next year"...If he doesn't do something "this year" HE might not be around...He needs to pick a young guy that can immediately come in and make an impact as he himself has said repeatedly.

I'm in no way shape or form against drafting a defensive player in the first or second round...I'm not even against drafting d players in the first AND second round...I'm just not convinced that's where the best value is for our team.

El Tejano
04-07-2009, 09:29 AM
I think a CB, unless he has the superior talent like Deion Sanders did, is worth taking in the first because it takes about 3 years to develop. It would be different if we had a Pro Bowl CB on the roster but DRob is the closest we have to that. We drafted him in the first but Aaron Glenn was there to show the ropes and really that was the best season Dunta's had with us.

Polo
04-07-2009, 09:35 AM
6 picks means nothing if you don't use them for the right reason. We could have three 1st round picks, but if we used them all on offense it would do nothing to help out the team. Yea we would have an explosive offense, but our defense would still suck.

We need a CB or LB in the 1st round and a CB or LB in the 2nd round. We need immediate impact players on defense and drafting a RB on the 1st day would seriously hinder that. You can find good defenders later in the draft, but they will most likely not start. I'm all for getting depth late in the draft, but we need to get some impact guys on the defensive side of the ball early.

I actually like WalterFootball's scenario where we trade our 1st rd pick (#15) & 2nd rd pick (#46) to the Eagles for their two 1st's (#21 & #28). That way we could take a LB like Matthews and a CB like Butler or Smith in the 1st round. Immediate impact.

Well using that logic, I guess the Colts should never had picked Joseph Addai or Gonzo...

And I'm not sure why you think all these guys are gonna come in and start...I don't see one sure fire starter on either side of the ball from where I'm sitting...And if Kubiak is looking to start a bunch of new guys and rookies on defense, then he isn't expecting to do much IMO.

Ole Miss Texan
04-07-2009, 10:11 AM
Each season, hypothetically, it should be tougher and tougher for a rookie to start. We've got a lot of players (rookies and young guys) to start because we drafted wisely, they fit the bill of what the coaches wanted and there was a previous lack of talent at that position respective to the direction the coaches wanted to go in. So looking back to the '06 draft, where we've got 4 starters, it can be an unfair comparison to expect each draft to have a similar kind of result. It's also unfair to think that the front office can fill all of our holes in an offseason. It's an ongoing process and that's why you select BPA (and hope that fits with the need positions). If you strictly draft to fill holes, you will reach on lesser talent and you'll end up having a mediocre team all over.

I'm not sure how many true "starters" we'll get... but I fully believe we'll get a good number of players from this draft who will contibute on this team. They'll get the snaps and be an important part of our success even if they're not starters their rookie season.

badboy
04-07-2009, 12:13 PM
I'm not sure I agree with that. Reeves is much faster than Jenkins and while he did give up some long plays last year he broke alot of passes up as well. I think he is more suited for deep routes and man coverage than Jenkins. Jenkins is a guy I'd like to see play nickel his rookie year and sit in the flats on cover 3 and cover 2. He can break on passes when he is facing the quarterback and he is a good tackler.

Despite my ideas for Jenkins, I haven't been interested in a first round cornerback unless we were going to get rid of Dunta. I think Molden still needs to be tested and I still think Bennett and Reeves can develop into quality starters. Bennett was a quality starter in the end of his rookie year and during some stretches of his sopohmore year, he just needs to be more consistent.It is possible that Jenkins could beat out Reeves but I am with you on this one. I think Reeves in his 2nd season with Texans will be more confident and relaxed. I am expecting a very good year for him. I would take Jenkins at #15 (barring my man Raji being there) as Jenkins can play FS and CB. I would move Wilson to back up CB to take Faggins former spot and allow Molden to get minutes without pressure. Moldin may be the replacement for Dunta and I'm sure I'll get some boos for that. I am really excited about our CBs and see a FS in draft, expectations of Moldin and Barber strengthening the D.

dalemurphy
04-07-2009, 11:48 PM
Thanks to John McClain, I can quickly some up what has many of us so frustrated with this LB in the first round talk.... From today's chat, I'm going to post 2 of his responses, both within 10 minutes of each other.

The first question asked him, "any chance the Texans take BPA after signing Cato June?"

McClain: " They'll take the best player available at a need position. June was cut by the Bucs remember. I don't see him starting over Adidi unless Adibi's injured. Which could happen."

second question: "If Beanie Wells falls to them, any chance the Texans take him or trade down?"

McClain: "They wont take a back in the first round..."


Okay, that's crazy! McClain is saying that RB isn't a need position. What planet am I on that a team could be content with Ryan Moats getting 10 carries a game and have no backupa? What's even more humorous is that I could also show you many McClain quotes that state the Texans want to keep Slaton's touches under 20 per game. Add to that, I could show you quotes from McClain to the effect that the Texans want to average over 30 rushes per game. So, you do the math! McClain is also adamant that the Texans won't take a RB in the second round.

My suggestion is that he, and anyone else that agrees with him, rewatch the Chicago game. Watch the offense suck up the joint when Slaton was pulled from the game and Moats was in the game. Then, watch the offense with Slaton in the game... Then, come back to this message board and explain to me how RB isn't a need. Realize also, that if the Texans rush the ball 30 times a game (very conservative estimate, by the way), that would equate to 480 carries. I would like someone to tell me how many of those carries to they expect Slaton to handle and what the heck is the team to do if he gets injured!?

Texecutioner
04-08-2009, 12:00 AM
Thanks to John McClain, I can quickly some up what has many of us so frustrated with this LB in the first round talk.... From today's chat, I'm going to post 2 of his responses, both within 10 minutes of each other.

The first question asked him, "any chance the Texans take BPA after signing Cato June?"

McClain: " They'll take the best player available at a need position. June was cut by the Bucs remember. I don't see him starting over Adidi unless Adibi's injured. Which could happen."

second question: "If Beanie Wells falls to them, any chance the Texans take him or trade down?"

McClain: "They wont take a back in the first round..."


Okay, that's crazy! McClain is saying that RB isn't a need position. What planet am I on that a team could be content with Ryan Moats getting 10 carries a game and have no backupa? What's even more humorous is that I could also show you many McClain quotes that state the Texans want to keep Slaton's touches under 20 per game. Add to that, I could show you quotes from McClain to the effect that the Texans want to average over 30 rushes per game. So, you do the math! McClain is also adamant that the Texans won't take a RB in the second round.

My suggestion is that he, and anyone else that agrees with him, rewatch the Chicago game. Watch the offense suck up the joint when Slaton was pulled from the game and Moats was in the game. Then, watch the offense with Slaton in the game... Then, come back to this message board and explain to me how RB isn't a need. Realize also, that if the Texans rush the ball 30 times a game (very conservative estimate, by the way), that would equate to 480 carries. I would like someone to tell me how many of those carries to they expect Slaton to handle and what the heck is the team to do if he gets injured!?

I'm all for BPA really. It is looking more and more to me like the BPA will be an offensive player at this point and Wells or Moreno should both be there. I would rather have Wells since he would be a bruiser to Slaton's quickness. If we couldn't get Wells with our 15th pick I wouldn't mind them going after Shonn Greene with a late 1st round pick either or unless he ends up being there with their 2nd pick but I doubt he falls that far. Then use the rest of the draft on defense practically. We will need another RB for sure. I would hate to go back to the awful running game we had before Slaton got here.

mussop
04-08-2009, 12:17 AM
Thanks to John McClain, I can quickly some up what has many of us so frustrated with this LB in the first round talk.... From today's chat, I'm going to post 2 of his responses, both within 10 minutes of each other.

The first question asked him, "any chance the Texans take BPA after signing Cato June?"

McClain: " They'll take the best player available at a need position. June was cut by the Bucs remember. I don't see him starting over Adidi unless Adibi's injured. Which could happen."

second question: "If Beanie Wells falls to them, any chance the Texans take him or trade down?"

McClain: "They wont take a back in the first round..."


Okay, that's crazy! McClain is saying that RB isn't a need position. What planet am I on that a team could be content with Ryan Moats getting 10 carries a game and have no backupa? What's even more humorous is that I could also show you many McClain quotes that state the Texans want to keep Slaton's touches under 20 per game. Add to that, I could show you quotes from McClain to the effect that the Texans want to average over 30 rushes per game. So, you do the math! McClain is also adamant that the Texans won't take a RB in the second round.

My suggestion is that he, and anyone else that agrees with him, rewatch the Chicago game. Watch the offense suck up the joint when Slaton was pulled from the game and Moats was in the game. Then, watch the offense with Slaton in the game... Then, come back to this message board and explain to me how RB isn't a need. Realize also, that if the Texans rush the ball 30 times a game (very conservative estimate, by the way), that would equate to 480 carries. I would like someone to tell me how many of those carries to they expect Slaton to handle and what the heck is the team to do if he gets injured!?

Maybe they are saying that because they dont want anyone to know they really do want a RB.

dalemurphy
04-08-2009, 12:44 AM
Maybe they are saying that because they dont want anyone to know they really do want a RB.

I have to believe that. It would be devastating to my faith and trust in Smithiak if there draft plan was simply to stay put and take a LB and to dismiss any thoughts of taking a RB before the 3rd round. If that's what is going on, then give me Charlie freakin' Casserly back!

WolverineFan
04-08-2009, 11:28 AM
dalemurphy you are always putting good info out there so I'm not here to disagree with you. I'm a defensive guy so all I'm saying is I would much rather prefer a top defensive prospect in the 1st than an offensive one. If Jenkins and Matthews are gone then I'm okay with an offensive guy, but defense is my priority.

BigBull17
04-08-2009, 11:34 AM
I have to believe that. It would be devastating to my faith and trust in Smithiak if there draft plan was simply to stay put and take a LB and to dismiss any thoughts of taking a RB before the 3rd round. If that's what is going on, then give me Charlie freakin' Casserly back!

...No...Just no...

BigBull17
04-08-2009, 11:39 AM
I'm all for BPA really. It is looking more and more to me like the BPA will be an offensive player at this point and Wells or Moreno should both be there. I would rather have Wells since he would be a bruiser to Slaton's quickness. If we couldn't get Wells with our 15th pick I wouldn't mind them going after Shonn Greene with a late 1st round pick either or unless he ends up being there with their 2nd pick but I doubt he falls that far. Then use the rest of the draft on defense practically. We will need another RB for sure. I would hate to go back to the awful running game we had before Slaton got here.

I could accept Moreno or Donald Brown, but there is no way in this beautiful green earth I'd ever want that poon Beanie Wells on my team. None what so ever.

El Tejano
04-08-2009, 12:14 PM
then give me Charlie freakin' Casserly back!

:shocked I never thought I'd see anyone put that in a post.

I agree with the idea that they haven't ruled out taking a back in the early rounds though.

Texecutioner
04-08-2009, 12:33 PM
I could accept Moreno or Donald Brown, but there is no way in this beautiful green earth I'd ever want that poon Beanie Wells on my team. None what so ever.

I don't know what poon is.

And why don't you explain what your deal is with Wells and why you hate the guy? He is exactly the type of RB that the Texans need right now.

WesmanTexanfan
04-08-2009, 12:33 PM
I think we go for gold in the 3rd again.

HOU-TEX
04-08-2009, 01:14 PM
I don't know what poon is.

And why don't you explain what your deal is with Wells and why you hate the guy? He is exactly the type of RB that the Texans need right now.

Puh C

BigBull17
04-08-2009, 02:06 PM
I don't know what poon is.

And why don't you explain what your deal is with Wells and why you hate the guy? He is exactly the type of RB that the Texans need right now.

Means he's a wussy. He missed the 2nd half of a bowl game with some mystery injury. He just seems soft for a bruiser.

badboy
04-08-2009, 03:56 PM
Power back available after first round include; Shonn Greene, Rashad Jennings, Cedric Peerman, Andre Brown, Javarris Williams and Gartrell Johnson.

bah007
04-08-2009, 04:33 PM
Power back available after first round include; Shonn Greene, Rashad Jennings, Cedric Peerman, Andre Brown, Javarris Williams and Gartrell Johnson.

I wouldn't include Peerman in that group. He does weight between 210-215 but he relies on his quickness.

Peerman will try to run around you before he tries to go through you. I wouldn't consider him to be a "power" back.

infantrycak
04-08-2009, 08:15 PM
Power back available after first round include; Shonn Greene, Rashad Jennings, Cedric Peerman, Andre Brown, Javarris Williams and Gartrell Johnson.

I wouldn't include Peerman in that group. He does weight between 210-215 but he relies on his quickness.

Peerman will try to run around you before he tries to go through you. I wouldn't consider him to be a "power" back.

And while fans came drool over their ideal "power back" compliment to Slaton, that doesn't mean Kubiak and Gibbs are going to put power over one cut and go. Nor should they.

bah007
04-09-2009, 11:14 AM
And while fans came drool over their ideal "power back" compliment to Slaton, that doesn't mean Kubiak and Gibbs are going to put power over one cut and go. Nor should they.

Agreed.

I've probably been the most outspoken on this board about taking the best back available for our system instead of drafting a less talented back just because he is bigger.

badboy
04-09-2009, 01:40 PM
I wouldn't include Peerman in that group. He does weight between 210-215 but he relies on his quickness.

Peerman will try to run around you before he tries to go through you. I wouldn't consider him to be a "power" back.He weighed 216 and ran 4.45 but Walters has him at 211. He can easily go 220. I agree that he will runa around a tackler but can power also. I am hoping for a Jennings or Greene earlier and then Peerman as a quicker back to emulate Slaton.

TexansSeminole
04-09-2009, 01:53 PM
Agreed.

I've probably been the most outspoken on this board about taking the best back available for our system instead of drafting a less talented back just because he is bigger.

I've expressed my interest in this philosophy over just picking a power back as well on this board.

We do need a goal line guy, but we also need just another running back who can be "the guy" for a couple games, maybe even a season if something happens to Slaton.

El Tejano
04-09-2009, 02:31 PM
And while fans came drool over their ideal "power back" compliment to Slaton, that doesn't mean Kubiak and Gibbs are going to put power over one cut and go. Nor should they.

Ah okay. Glenn Coffee!

The1ApplePie
04-09-2009, 09:58 PM
Outside Raji, Orakpo, and Curry, there really aren't defensive players that grab your attention

Take a playmaker, whatever side of the ball.

CloakNNNdagger
04-10-2009, 02:21 PM
Cal fullback Will Ta’ufo’ou (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/04/10/cal-fullback-on-the-move/) ..................5'11,” 253-pound bruising blocker.................Ta’ufo’ou never fumbled in four seasons and wasn’t tackled for a loss........

Added running backs coach Ron Gould: “Will is the toughest player I have ever coached.”

Ta’ufo’ou was a standout high school running back who developed into a fullback at the collegiate level, where he blocked for Marshawn Lynch and J.J. Arrington.

“I have really come to appreciate blocking,” said Ta’ufo’ou, who graduated from Cal with honors. ”The feeling of getting a good clean block, pancake them or pop their helmet off, whatever, a big hit, something that’s going to change the play.”

Can you image this bruiser in there with Leach in the Red zone and on short yardage plays? Consideration could be given to revert him back to his original RB position to use him interchangeably with FB. [Read this article on the bruiser][/U] ("http://www.calbears.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/092908aap.html"[U)

Polo
04-13-2009, 12:25 PM
Further reasoning for the Texans taking a back in the first two rounds:

You don't know if the later round guys THAT YOU LIKE will be available when you pick.

Lets just imagine that the Texans really do believe that a fourth or third round rated RB would be the perfect compliment/assistant starter.

Well, unless they like a lot of other prospect in that range, is it really that safe to bank on one or two guys being around when you make those later picks? You'd almost have to have the perfect storm, reach or trade up.

If we are to assume that the Texans will wait until later rounds to fill a position of need then we are assuming that they like a lot of backs in the later rounds and I just don't see that as likely. That's taking a pretty big risk to get an extremely important position filled, because if the few backs that you like from later rounds are gone when you pick then you are forced to pick a guy that you didn't really care for...

I do think that they will draft one early, and if there is another back in the later rounds that they really like, I think they may take another...

Also, I think all of this defense talk is a good smoke screen. RB is a really important position for us to look at in the draft, but it has not been given much credence. If the Texans really do like one of those first or second round backs, then the more people that think there is no way we take one there the better. Please delete this thread.

mussop
04-13-2009, 12:32 PM
Can you image this bruiser in there with Leach in the Red zone and on short yardage plays? Consideration could be given to revert him back to his original RB position to use him interchangeably with FB. [Read this article on the bruiser][/U] ("http://www.calbears.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/092908aap.html"[U)

Nice find.

SteveSlaton20
04-13-2009, 05:42 PM
This guy agrees with you Polo

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/03/nfp-three-round-mock-draft/

Steven McGee getting pick in the forth round?

LOL

Blake
04-15-2009, 01:06 PM
Question. If Bennie Wells and Knowshon Moreno were considered top 5 prospects, would people miraculously want a RB to drop to #15 so we could take them?

It just seems to me that sometimes we want what we cant have.

I would be happy taking a stud RB like Moreno, but there really is less than a 5% chance we do that.

El Tejano
04-15-2009, 02:18 PM
I'm just thinking that there aren't no other real prospects that are better or worth it aside from those guys if they fall that far to 15.

Polo
04-15-2009, 02:22 PM
Question. If Bennie Wells and Knowshon Moreno were considered top 5 prospects, would people miraculously want a RB to drop to #15 so we could take them?

I don't get your question.

TexansSeminole
04-15-2009, 02:45 PM
K. Moreno in the first round is my favorite scenario.