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nero THE zero
03-25-2009, 02:46 PM
I know Brisiel seems to be a favorite whipping boy around here, but that criticism is turning out to be undeserved.

LZ has been on the Brisiel bandwagon for a while, calling him one of our best linemen. From a comment in his blog:
http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2009/03/shaun_codys_just_a_guy.html#comments
Daniels, Brisiel and Winston are more than just guys. Kevin Walter might be as well. Pitts is better than many guards around the league although I personally don't think he's better than Brisiel.

Further, Brisiel received a nice little bonus from the league:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6339048.html
Brisiel hits jackpot — Texans right guard Mike Brisiel, who played every play of every game last season, is getting an additional $304,063 through the NFL’s performance-based pay distribution.

The bonus is a welcome addition for Brisiel, who earned $376,720 last season.

It’s a complicated formula the league uses to calculate performance by players based on their salary level. Brisiel was one of 25 players to get a bonus. San Diego offensive tackle Jeromey Clary got the most ($405,859).

The interior of our line could surely use some work, but the people looking to replace Brisiel might be looking in the wrong direction.

Spike
03-25-2009, 02:54 PM
I might be wrong, but I don't think that the bonus is related to the quality of the performance. I get the impression it is based on snaps/ or some other measure of time on the field - so if a lower salary player plays a lot, there is a metric for obtaining a bonus. I don't think that they have guys at the NFL front office who are making subjective determinations on which guys deserve more money.

I don't think anyone here has argued that Brisiel is not better than anyone else we have on the roster - which is clearly why he is on the field so much. The argument is that team can use an upgrade at this position.

Carr Bombed
03-25-2009, 02:58 PM
My beef has never been with Brisiel, it's always been with our crappy overmatched center (and by crappy, I mean shitty, I still remember the Steelers tackling Slaton by throwing Myers into the backfield and through Slaton)....that's where the problem in the line lies.

HOU-TEX
03-25-2009, 03:04 PM
Good for Brisiel.

He did get better the second half of the season, but I will admit that I thought he was just as bad as Meyers the first half of the season. I still believe that too.

Hopefully he continues to improve. Meyers on the other hand........?

Polo
03-25-2009, 03:05 PM
I don't understand why Briesel and Myers don't get the same pass Matt Schaub gets. For the record, I like all of them.

But folks argue that they wouldn't get rid of Schaub because he was the QB for the 3rd ranked offense in the leauge...Well...Briesel and Myers started more games than Matt and they helped us have a really good year running the ball. If ZBS normally have certain type of players along the o-line that are better fits than others, how do you know you're not cutting off your finger to get rid of the wart?

Yes they have their defenciencies, but so does Schaub....I've seen Matt look just as bad or worse than these guys on several occasions......I don't get folks acting like these guys didn't belong on the field last year...

m5kwatts
03-25-2009, 03:10 PM
The Brisiel whining is ignorant and unfounded. Why do people complain about the offense so much? Dear God the O is fine its our D we should be whining about.

Carr Bombed
03-25-2009, 03:12 PM
I don't understand why Briesel and Myers don't get the same pass Matt Schaub gets. For the record, I like all of them.

But folks argue that they wouldn't get rid of Schaub because he was the QB for the 3rd ranked offense in the leauge...Well...Briesel and Myers started more games than Matt and they helped us have a really good year running the ball. If ZBS normally have certain type of players along the o-line that are better fits than others, how do you know you're not cutting off your finger to get rid of the wart?

Yes they have their defenciencies, but so does Schaub...I don't get folks acting like these guys didn't belong on the field last year...

Anytime we got in "tough running" situations...like on the goal line. Myers got absolutely manhandled (and he's a big reason why Brisiel got a bad rap on this board). Yes, hes athletic enough to get off the ball and make blocks in space/middle of the field, but when it was time to hold the line Myers was a absolute failure. Also Schaub and Myers aren't comparable...there were alot of time Schaub and Rosenfels had to throw from a dirty pocket, because people were pushing Myers in their face.

Myers is not a starting center (he's a very, very good backup/pinch starter though)..he was the reason why Slaton met people in the backfield on many occasions.

Polo
03-25-2009, 03:12 PM
The Brisiel whining is ignorant and unfounded. Why do people complain about the offense so much? Dear God the O is fine its our D we should be whining about.

I just can't take you seriously when you're not chopped and screwed...

Polo
03-25-2009, 03:17 PM
Anytime we got in "tough running" situations...like on the goal line. Myers got manhandled. Yes, hes athletic enough to get off the ball and make blocks in space, but when it was time to hold the line Myers was a absolute failure. Also Schaub and Myers aren't comparable.

Myers is not a starting center..he was the reason why Slaton met people in the backfield on many occasions.

Why aren't Myer and Schaub comparable ?

And the ZBS as a whole is not known for excelling in "tough running situations"...When the field gets shorter, the advantage of the smaller linemen outquicking the defensive players is somewhat lost....

If you bring in a lineman that excels in short yardage situations, how do you know we won't lose a little of what we do in between the 20's ? I'm not saying that Briesel is the oh, so perfect fit and that no one can be better than him, but I don't get why Matt Schaub gets a pass for his terrible moments while playing in the third ranked offense, but Briesel doesn't when he was way more consistent for us...

Plus, it's not like it's out of the realm of possibility that these guys get better...They don't have a whole lot of snaps under their belts....Getting blown up a few times by stronger dudes is really nothing...I just didn't see it as something that greatly interfered or hampered our offense, but I dunno....

Not sure why the two can't be compared other than because you said it?

Carr Bombed
03-25-2009, 03:27 PM
Why aren't Myer and Schaub comparable ?

Well for one, they play completely different positions and two, I already said why (maybe you caught me in between a post edit???....go back and read above for you answer.)

And the ZBS as a whole is not known for excelling in "tough running situations"...When the field gets shorter, the advantage of the smaller linemen outquicking the defensive players is somewhat lost...

ZBS lineman are known for getting exposed when they have to throw alot, which is why many Denver fans have told us to beware if we get down by double digits. This line shoud atleast be good in goal line situations.....they were in Denver? As far as Denver goes, something is up when they're willing to dump a "promising starting center" for a 6th round pick when their starter was on his last leg. That's all you need to know about what that "ZBS" team thought about Myers.

If you bring in a lineman that excels in short yardage situations, how do you know we won't lose a little of what we do in between the 20's ? I'm not saying that Briesel is the oh, so perfect fit and that no one can be better than him, but I don't get why Matt Schaub gets a pass for his terrible moments while playing in the third ranked offense, but Briesel doesn't...

Not sure why the two can't be compared other than because you said it?

I never said anything about Briesel, I like him. My beef is with Myers and Myers alone....and like I said multiple times now, in no shape or form is a QB comparable to a lineman. I was tough on Schaub early on last season, but he IMPROVED as the season went on. Myers did not, Myers was OVERMATCHED from beginning to end, and he needs to be replaced. His position is actually my "wild card" in this upcoming draft (so don't freak out Texan fans when we take a center early in this draft). I could see us spending one of our first day picks on a center to fix this problem and while people may ***** and moan about it, I hope they do (Texans FO). This team needs muscle and junk in the trunk up the middle....Slaton got manhandled, because Myers couldn't tote the line and hold his man or the middle of the line.

Polo
03-25-2009, 03:38 PM
:ok:

mexican_texan
03-25-2009, 03:48 PM
Briesel is a good Guard. I don't think we could find better guard combinations than what we have now. Briesel gets beat sometimes, but he's still a relatively young player. He's only been a starter for what, 2 years?

Myers, though, is the weakness of the line...I don't think he's our long-term solution.

TheRealJoker
03-25-2009, 04:03 PM
The draft has a lot of talent in the interior OL this season. Its not that Myers or Brisiel are such a glaring weakness they need to be replaced. Its just that the value will be in getting one of these stud OG/Centers rather than another CB who isn't any more talented than what we've got on the roster already.


Its very likely we can pick up a guy in the 3rd/4th round that will be starting at either C/RG by the middle of next season. That isn't an indictment of Brisiel or Myers, its just an excellent opportunity to further strengthen our team and an opportunity to have some real depth for the first time in franchise history on the OL.

HOU-TEX
03-25-2009, 04:20 PM
I've been looking through pictures of the Rosencopter game (Colts), courtesy of Bullpen photos, of course. Awesome pictures as usual.

Granted, these are only pictures and don't tell the entire story, but they are darn close.

In the first half, I've got Myers being beat twice, Pitts once, Brown twice and Brisiel once. When Brisiel was beat he had the back of his legs taken out, but I counted it anyway because he was pushed back far enough to get folded backwards. Daniels and Dresson were both left 1 on 1 with Freeney on different occasions. Why? I don't know.

These are only personal observations so no need for bashing

Ole Miss Texan
03-25-2009, 04:34 PM
Brisiel got a performance bonus because he played a certain percentage of our snaps. That shows that he beat out the other players for the RG spot. Thinking Brisiel should be our starting RG strictly because of this bonus would be like if Ephraim Salaam got a bonus for playing a % of snaps in '07 and us saying we shouldn't address the LT position.

I like Brisiel and Myers. I think both have a place on this team and fully support that. I think they'll continue to improve as they all play together in this system. But that's the extent of it. I think the C/RG position can be upgraded and if we have a position to do so, I would welcome that. I'm not saying cut them, I'm saying they would be great back ups if we were to get better players. I'm fully aware of our offensive yardage statistics and that our defense has a lot of needs. But you have to look at every position each season and see how you can make the team better. I think it would be a mistake to neglect a bigger need with a superior talent- be that C/G, DT, OLB, CB, S, etc.

In anycase, we've got to get better depth on the OL. Be that from a better C/G and making Myers/Brisiel depth or finding better depth behind them. Some people want Wells at RB in the 1st round. If that's how it goes, he becomes our #1 RB and our primary RB while Slaton becomes the backup and splits carries with Wells. That's my opinion anyways. Same goes for the OL, choose a new starter or get some depth behind the current. Pick you poison.

TimeKiller
03-25-2009, 04:46 PM
Good for Brisiel but that doesn't make him untouchable. I'm upgrading Myers first though, then probably G and C/G depth. There's no way the Texans make it out of this draft without at least 1 interior lineman because as fortunate as they were to have no injuries on the line there are no guarantees for the future. I think Butler is fine T depth but Studdard is a bad joke and honestly I don't even think Brisiel has a backup. Chris White still around? We wouldn't have to try very hard to get an upgrade there.

nero THE zero
03-25-2009, 04:57 PM
Brisiel got a performance bonus because he played a certain percentage of our snaps. That shows that he beat out the other players for the RG spot. Thinking Brisiel should be our starting RG strictly because of this bonus would be like if Ephraim Salaam got a bonus for playing a % of snaps in '07 and us saying we shouldn't address the LT position.


Do you have a link that states that Brisiel's bonus was strictly based on snap percentages? The article states, "Itís a complicated formula the league uses to calculate performance by players based on their salary level." If it was as simple as number of snaps, I don't know why McClain wouldn't have said so. I also don't know why it would be called the "performance-based pay distribution" if it had to do wholly with snaps and nothing with performance.

badboy
03-25-2009, 05:18 PM
My beef has never been with Brisiel, it's always been with our crappy overmatched center (and by crappy, I mean shitty, I still remember the Steelers tackling Slaton by throwing Myers into the backfield and through Slaton)....that's where the problem in the line lies.You might not care, but Chris Myer's dad participates in this MB. Have an opinion but I doubt you want someone to write your son is "shitty".

Ole Miss Texan
03-25-2009, 05:24 PM
Do you have a link that states that Brisiel's bonus was strictly based on snap percentages? The article states, "Itís a complicated formula the league uses to calculate performance by players based on their salary level." If it was as simple as number of snaps, I don't know why McClain wouldn't have said so. I also don't know why it would be called the "performance-based pay distribution" if it had to do wholly with snaps and nothing with performance.

Well, no, that's a good point. When it comes to skilled positions such as QB, it's usually a little easier (for the casual fan) to be able to follow certain performance incentives and/or requirements. Some may be top 5 in league for TD passes, passer rating, yards, etc. Sometimes there are addition, specific, incentives such as a passer rating of at least 95, completion % of at least 59.99, average yards per pass, at least 1,801 passing yards, at least 25 Tds, etc. Other positions such as DE you can measure tackles, sacks, etc. much easier than OL.

I think thats the formula may be "complicated" and have no idea how they measure that. I think a large part has to do with salary and # of snaps played. This is usually a good indicator that a player may be contributing at a higher level than expected. In that sense, I suspect that's a large part of the bonus. In cases such as the Texans, it could be just because he's the best of the bunch. May not be all that good but there's nobody else to start. Of course if he was that bad a team would do its best to replace him somehow. Do I think that's completely the case with Brisiel? No, but partly. It'd be unfair to just say it was him or studdard so he gets the nod but doesn't deserve any bonus. I completely agree he played at a level above MY expectations. I think the staff sees something in him to let him get that playing time and develop as a player. I think he was the best option we had last year and in thinking of the OL as a whole going forward. I think he's got a good chance to develop into a solid starter for us for a long time.

In anycase, I think it's well deserved.

Ole Miss Texan
03-25-2009, 05:29 PM
My beef has never been with Brisiel, it's always been with our crappy overmatched center (and by crappy, I mean shitty, I still remember the Steelers tackling Slaton by throwing Myers into the backfield and through Slaton)....that's where the problem in the line lies.

I think we could use an upgrade at C and RG, as I've mentioned previously. But I do think Myers and Brisiel both can be solid contributers on the team. I LOVED the trade with Denver getting Myers for what a 6th rd pick? I think that was a steal on our part.

I wonder though, how Myers would be as a Guard, I think that's what he played at in Denver. Could be wrong though. I think both Myers and Brisiel improved over the course of the season and should continue to during the offseason. I think they and the entire OL counting Brown and Winston should be better next year. With that said, the OL and DL are the two areas where I'm always looking to upgrade. I want to have completely dominant Lines. That's why most of my thinking is that if Myers and Brisiel who are capable of starting for our team for the full season are our backups... that would mean we would have one sick OL!

Carr Bombed
03-25-2009, 05:38 PM
You might not care, but Chris Myer's dad participates in this MB. Have an opinion but I doubt you want someone to write your son is "shitty".

David Carr's brother wrote on these boards too (BTW, I ran into David Carr's cousin at home depot...she's a cashier in Webster and she hates y'all....and me too, because she caught me talking about him :) awkward) I have the upmost respect for these families, but it's not going to stop me from speaking the truth or giving my opinion. His son was very subpar in the run game and if he hates what I typed, he can always take comfort in knowing his son is set for life and I'm sure he is too. Myers needs to step up or he's going to be replaced...(that's the nature of the beast...sorry "Mr. Myers")...simple as that. There's a saying "with much is given...much is expected", and the Myers family is given very very much.

TimeKiller
03-25-2009, 05:42 PM
Boohoo. His dad is probably well aware that he was manhandled a bit too often to get much praise.

Kaiser Toro
03-25-2009, 07:18 PM
I am not a big fan of Brisiel, but sure am glad any time someone earns a bonus. To be one of 25 ain't too shabby.

mussop
03-25-2009, 11:19 PM
Observe this. *Warning this could cause serious depression if you are a Texans fan.Link (http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80c24cbe&campaign=ec0009) And this.

The Texans got the ball back with 1:57 left at their own 10, but Rosenfels was sacked twice to end any chance of tying it. Jared Allen reached out from around his blocker and yanked him to the turf with one hand on third down, and Kevin Williams finished him off on fourth down. The Vikings had five sacks in all.

"That's how you kill a 2-minute drive," Allen said.

TimeKiller
03-26-2009, 08:29 AM
If one of the best (if not the top) D-lines in the game can't stop us at least once...well, I guess they wouldn't be one of the best then.

mussop
03-26-2009, 10:36 AM
If one of the best (if not the top) D-lines in the game can't stop us at least once...well, I guess they wouldn't be one of the best then.

Once? They might as well of lined up in our backfield half the game.

barrett
03-26-2009, 12:14 PM
I was in the camp that Brisiel was playing poorly as well, but after reviewing the first half of the season through the Vikings game he's looked very solid actually. In fact, it's Winston that has shown more issues than Brisiel. Mostly in pass protection. Brisiel isn't dominant but he's consistent on both run and pass blocking. I'm curious to watch the last half and find out what develops.

76Texan
03-26-2009, 02:40 PM
IMO, determining a lineman's worth is very tricky.
On the O-line, what people remember the most is when a play blows off in the lineman's face. It negates a few good plays where his name wasn't mentioned at all.

Regarding our O-line, I've mentioned after the season that I wasn't sure who our best one was. Only that probably Pitts, then Winston, then who knows what. But most likely, Brisiel is at the bottom of the chain. And that wasn't a knock on him.

Let's look at it this way. VALUE!
Pitts was a high pick and a veteran. His performance was worth that.
Winston was a good choice in the third. His performance was worth that.
Brown was a rookie first rounder. His performace was at least up to par.
IMO, it was worth it.
Myers costs us only a low pick. His performance was well worth that and more.
Brisiel costs us practically nothing. His performance was bonus. So I'm glad the guy got the extra dough.

Then let's look at it another way. Where's the weakest link?!?
Brisiel.
We are one of those teams that leave the tackles on an island a bit more than others.
Especially against good defensive teams. For example, late in the season, the Ravens, the Tacks, the Bears.
You will see that we run much less behind Brisiel.
Our point of attack had changed in the second half of the season against good defensive teams. We hardly run off-RG against these teams. When we did, most likely we have double-teaming.

And when we set out for a pass that requires a bit more time to develop, you can find Brisiel and Myers in pair as well.

If you go back and watch those games, you will see that Brisiel was the weakest link overall.

Myers was a good guard for the Broncos. I was very surprised they let him go (but hey, it was a small gift to Jr.)

He did improve as a center under Gibbs' tutelage.
It's not so much that I want an upgrade at C.
I figure that Myers had performed really well at G for the Broncos with his athleticism. (No, he didn't finish all the blocks like Sr. proudly pronounced. But yeah, he was a good guard.) His forte is out in space in running plays, and to take on the rushing LB in blitzing situation; if there was none, he would switch over to help either the G or C. And he's pretty smart about recognizing those situations. You hardly see him standing around doing nothing. And also, he didn't do too shabby a few times he took on Haynesworth.

pbat488
03-26-2009, 04:27 PM
My beef has never been with Brisiel, it's always been with our crappy overmatched center (and by crappy, I mean shitty, I still remember the Steelers tackling Slaton by throwing Myers into the backfield and through Slaton)....that's where the problem in the line lies.

Gonna be great seeing the AFC East's NTs against our interior OL next year... :brickwall:

badboy
03-26-2009, 05:10 PM
David Carr's brother wrote on these boards too (BTW, I ran into David Carr's cousin at home depot...she's a cashier in Webster and she hates y'all....and me too, because she caught me talking about him :) awkward) I have the upmost respect for these families, but it's not going to stop me from speaking the truth or giving my opinion. His son was very subpar in the run game and if he hates what I typed, he can always take comfort in knowing his son is set for life and I'm sure he is too. Myers needs to step up or he's going to be replaced...(that's the nature of the beast...sorry "Mr. Myers")...simple as that. There's a saying "with much is given...much is expected", and the Myers family is given very very much.As I said state your thoughts as you did in this post without using the adjective. thanks

threetoedpete
03-27-2009, 12:38 PM
So dose this make me the only one in here who called it correctly on Briseils preformance the last six games ? I am sure they gave him a bumb because he sucked there Old Miss. Brisiel is not the problem.

Ole Miss Texan
03-27-2009, 12:42 PM
So dose this make me the only one in here who called it correctly on Briseils preformance the last six games ? I am sure they gave him a bumb because he sucked there Old Miss. Brisiel is not the problem.
Eh?

threetoedpete
03-27-2009, 01:39 PM
Eh?


Thinking Brisiel should be our starting RG strictly because of this bonus would be like if Ephraim Salaam got a bonus for playing a % of snaps in '07 and us saying we shouldn't address the LT position.



Eh ?

Ole Miss Texan
03-27-2009, 02:06 PM
Thinking Brisiel should be our starting RG strictly because of this bonus would be like if Ephraim Salaam got a bonus for playing a % of snaps in '07 and us saying we shouldn't address the LT position.
Eh ?
The fact that I like Brisiel and want him on this team is well documented on these boards and in this thread. This specific quote just means be careful how you interpret things. In my opinion, the OL has to improve for us to be considered an elite offense. If the staff thinks Brisiel is the future for us at RG, so be it. I'll drink the punch and will want him to continue to improve. In that case, we've got to get much better depth behind him. The point is, with the $'s Brisiel is making and the bonus he got... doesn't spell STARTER. He's the answer at RG only if the staff thinks he's the best player for the position and they decide not to upgrade that starting spot.
So dose this make me the only one in here who called it correctly on Briseils preformance the last six games ? I am sure they gave him a bumb because he sucked there Old Miss. Brisiel is not the problem.
I'm not sure what this means. Is it supposed to be bump? Are you meaning they gave him a bump in some money? If so, I never said Brisiel sucks there. I'm on record saying the bonus was well deserved so I don't know where you're going with that unless your saying because he got a $300K bonus he is hands down 100% the starting RG of our future and we shouldn't even think about addressing that position.

But this doesn't mean I can't be critical of the way our entior was consistently exploited throughout the season. I think Myers and Brisiel both improved during the season, but they were far from convincing me they are going to be 10 year starters for our OL. OL has to improve, period. Be that Myers and Brisiel are given the time to develop and gel- get us quality depth behind them. If we were to get a great prospect like Eric Wood at C or Michael Oher at G, I'm happy with that route too. Assuming the rook beats out our current starter, hypothetically our starting 5 would be better than last year... that would also mean our depth behind them would be better than last year. You upgrade two spots with one pick. It's just whichever course they want to take- my suspicion is we'll see same starting 5 as last year, barring injury.