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View Full Version : Why not a LB @ 15?


Goldensilence
03-16-2009, 01:06 PM
There are people on the board who think that given the entire scope of team needs,that we are not sure we are able to trade back again,and it is unlikely a top tier guy falls to 15 that we see best value for that slot being a linebacker. Now some are in disagreement over whether that is Matthews, Laurenitis, or Cushing but all feel it is a unit that can be upgraded and we'll see the earliest likely return on their play.

The point of this thread is simple if not one of those guys, then who at 15 presents the best value for our team? Make a good argument for your player.This is strictly 1st round value.

My arugment is for James Laurentitis. Cushing has lots of questions surrounding him and I'm not sure he'll bring the intensity I want to see out of my LB corps. I like Matthews and his bloodline but not a lot to judge for a one year body of work. I like Laurenitis' body of work and the kid likes to hit.

I do not see the value of going RB in the first while guys like Shonn Greene, and McCoy are likely to be available. I do see the need to not only get a guy behind Slaton but someone who can reliably split the load and more if needed.

I like the idea of getting Mack and we do need to upgrade over Myers but value is not there at 15. I like Duke Robinson as well but again not value there at 15. Unless we tag one of the T for a move to Guard don't see the value in taking a tackle here.

Pettigrew would be a luxury pick. Maclin would be interesting but again IMO luxury pick. Leach at FB enough said.

I'm expecting that Kollar will be able to get better production out of our current DT's with up dropping the read and react schtik from Smith. Jerry will likely get a look here. Another unit that could use an upgrade but I don't see the value here. I would like to see us add a pass rush specialist at DE but not at 15. Johnson would be an intriguing pick but with Smith signed it just doesn't seem likely.

Not many William Moore fans out there right now with Wilson in the fold doesn't seem like the pick they'll make. I am however a little nervous about another one year wonder ala Will Demps. Staff seems high on Barber @ SS but I think we could upgrade the spot. No SS worthy @ 15.

I would love to see Jenkins fall to us at 15 but doubt he makes it past N.O. who could use a big time CB. Other then that maybe Butler's stock rises like DRC or Dunta's come draft time. Unless we have no intentions of resigning Dunta I don't like the idea of a CB here.

Finally LB. Demeco is well...Demeco. I think if Adibi puts on a few pounds and works on his flexibility he could be a good starter. Injured his rookie year but didn't have issues in college. I like our depth at LB but the problem that others and I run into is Zac Diles. His injury is a concern to whether he'll be back on time but my concern is his lack of sideline to sideline speed. When Diles and Greenwood went down and Bentley and Adibi were inserted into the line up this defense got visibly better IMO. That and while not starting he makes good depth at LB.

Alright guys fire away.

RipTraxx
03-16-2009, 01:16 PM
With three of the top defensive players coming out of USC. All three being linebackers. Im gonna wait till their pro day. (april 1)

I DO like the idea of a LB so long as he can provide a rush and/or put is hand down as a DE.

as of RIGHT NOW...im going with Matthews.

TimeKiller
03-16-2009, 01:35 PM
I'd be fine with Laraunitis at 15, being a guy who has been bangin a drum or two for Matthews for a couple weeks...

RipTraxx
03-16-2009, 01:56 PM
I'd be fine with Laraunitis at 15, being a guy who has been bangin a drum or two for Matthews for a couple weeks...

With that 4.85 in kinda makes me wonder if hes just a product of the system type.

Goldensilence
03-16-2009, 02:24 PM
With that 4.85 in kinda makes me wonder if hes just a product of the system type.

I've seen it at 4.80

http://www.draftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/ilb/James-Laurinaitis.php

Might be a product type player but I'll agree the more I look at Matthews he has more upside but problem I still go back to is neither him or Cushing has the work of Body that Laurinaitis has compiled.

Texecutioner
03-16-2009, 02:34 PM
I've seen it at 4.80

http://www.draftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/ilb/James-Laurinaitis.php

Might be a product type but I'll agree the more I look at Matthews has more upside but problem I still go back to is neither him or Cushing has the work of Body that Laurinaitis has compiled.

I'd have no problem with Lauranitus. On another site, someone actually compared him to Demeco as far as being an under the radar kind of guy in this draft as far as the ELITE LB's sort of how Demeco was and said that Lauranitus could easily be a very good player for a franchise for many many years and I really agree with that. He is a hard worker and a true football player that loves to hit. I don't see how he would be bad for any team that could use a LB right now. People forget that last draft he would have been easily a top 10 pick as well.

I'd have no problem with Lauranitus personally.

TexansSeminole
03-16-2009, 03:30 PM
I'd have no problem with Lauranitus. On another site, someone actually compared him to Demeco as far as being an under the radar kind of guy in this draft as far as the ELITE LB's sort of how Demeco was and said that Lauranitus could easily be a very good player for a franchise for many many years and I really agree with that. He is a hard worker and a true football player that loves to hit. I don't see how he would be bad for any team that could use a LB right now. People forget that last draft he would have been easily a top 10 pick as well.

I'd have no problem with Lauranitus personally.

The problem with Lauranitius on the Texans is where do you put him. I'd like him as a MLB but from what I understand DeMeco is not going to be moving from the middle. Could he play SLB? Don't know if he is worth the 15 at SLB.

Ole Miss Texan
03-16-2009, 03:32 PM
Laurinaitis... He's not a guy I would move Demeco outside for so that means JL would be an outside LB for us. He's probably best suited for WLB. I'd rather get an upgrade at SLB and let Adibi develop into our WLB.

I'd taking Cushing and Matthews over Laurinaitis who should probably go to a 3-4 team anyways.

Polo
03-16-2009, 03:39 PM
I don't go by value so I don't really look at who's rated to go where.

If they pass up players that are more highly rated and decide to "reach" for a DB like they "reached" for Duane Brown and Mario Williams, I'd be cool with that...I'm hoping we go DB but I would not be upset at all with any of the LB's listed...

jdog
03-16-2009, 03:43 PM
Trade down for Sean Smith. We need secondary help more than anything except maybe defensive tackle, but I am sick of taking DT's in the first round. Smith is the best safety in the draft and should go late in the first round. Why not trade down, get more picks, and the best player in the draft for our greatest need? With the extra pick(s) from trading down, we can get a big DT or other defensive depth or some depth for the offensive line or a power runner.

Goldensilence
03-16-2009, 06:18 PM
Laurinaitis... He's not a guy I would move Demeco outside for so that means JL would be an outside LB for us. He's probably best suited for WLB. I'd rather get an upgrade at SLB and let Adibi develop into our WLB.

I'd taking Cushing and Matthews over Laurinaitis who should probably go to a 3-4 team anyways.

Personally I think he's like Demeco in the sense of line him up where he's needed. When we drafted Demeco we didn't expect him to be the mike to begin with but after Cowart go injured and he excelled rest is history.

Problem I keep coming up with is at 15 barring a trade down who else can you make a serious case for?

Question if Oher falls to us at 15 and we don't get a good trade back offer do you take him and move him or anyone else on the line inside?

Goldensilence
03-16-2009, 06:20 PM
Trade down for Sean Smith. We need secondary help more than anything except maybe defensive tackle, but I am sick of taking DT's in the first round. Smith is the best safety in the draft and should go late in the first round. Why not trade down, get more picks, and the best player in the draft for our greatest need? With the extra pick(s) from trading down, we can get a big DT or other defensive depth or some depth for the offensive line or a power runner.

This thread is not about trading down. It's about who can you justify taking a 15 considering team needs and value. That's all I am interested in after 10 pages of the Linebacker thread. If not taking one of those three linebackers at 15 who do you take?

jdog
03-16-2009, 07:19 PM
This thread is not about trading down. It's about who can you justify taking a 15 considering team needs and value. That's all I am interested in after 10 pages of the Linebacker thread. If not taking one of those three linebackers at 15 who do you take?

Okay, if any of the following people are available at 15, I say we draft them instead of Brian Cushing and any other LB would be a reach in my opinion:

Knowshon Moreno RB
Mark Sanchez QB
Chris Wells RB
Michael Oher OT
Vontae Davis CB
Malcolm Jenkins S
Rey Maualuga LB

With Adibi, Bentley, Diles, and Ryans, I don't know how you can say that LB is any greater of a need than RB, QB, OT, or CB, and the value for the LB's available at 15 isn't any greater than these other positions.

Goldensilence
03-17-2009, 12:55 AM
Okay, if any of the following people are available at 15, I say we draft them instead of Brian Cushing and any other LB would be a reach in my opinion:

Knowshon Moreno RB
Mark Sanchez QB
Chris Wells RB
Michael Oher OT
Vontae Davis CB
Malcolm Jenkins S
Rey Maualuga LB

With Adibi, Bentley, Diles, and Ryans, I don't know how you can say that LB is any greater of a need than RB, QB, OT, or CB, and the value for the LB's available at 15 isn't any greater than these other positions.

Sanchez is a viable pick because? Starting QB and a signed basckup.

Wells and Moreno will be there likely but again I think we can find better value in the second or third round.

Jenkins is not a lock to be moved to safety. Even then i'm not convinced he gets past N.O. who needs a play maker at CB. Davis will be there but he's inconsistent.

I doubt Rey gets past Denver unless Cutler does get traded, and Stafford falls to them. IF Rey does fall it's a no brainer.

IF Oher does fall to us at 15 where do you play him? RT? LT? Move him inside? Move one of those 2 inside?

jdog
03-17-2009, 11:04 AM
Sanchez is a viable pick because? Starting QB and a signed basckup.

Sanchez is a franchise qb that probably needs a year or so on the sideline. Let Schaub play this year and prove he is the guy. I'm not sold as of yet. He has yet to play a full season. Our backup is the backup from an 0-16 team. I'm sure he will workout as a backup, but I don't think he is the future either. Sanchez, learning from Kubiak, would be the future franchise qb. I don't think our qb situation is a done deal, and the first round is for these kinds of guys in my opinion.


Wells and Moreno will be there likely but again I think we can find better value in the second or third round.

You might be right, but you can make the same argument for linebackers. We've had success with picking linebackers in later rounds. As far as Wells and Moreno, they are game changing backs. Wells is an ideal power back, and we can't make Slaton a work horse between the tackles kind of guy and expect him to last. He'll be DD in a couple of years. Plus, we have that red zone problem which a guy like Wells could solve for us. Moreno is supposed to be a complete back, and it wouldn't hurt to have two great backs. We can agree that RB is a valuable position and we're one injury away from being in a terrible position of need there. As far as linebackers, which guy at 15 is going to be a game changer and make us win more games that we can't find in round 2 or 3?

Jenkins is not a lock to be moved to safety. Even then i'm not convinced he gets past N.O. who needs a play maker at CB. Davis will be there but he's inconsistent.

I think secondary is our greatest need. It's possible that Jenkins could fall to us, so you admit that we should take him? Also, Davis might be inconsistent, but he would be an upgrade at CB for us. Which linebacker at 15 would have a perfect game? None.

I doubt Rey gets past Denver unless Cutler does get traded, and Stafford falls to them. IF Rey does fall it's a no brainer.

Yeah, and this doesn't counter your suggestion of linebacker so forget this one. :headhurts:

IF Oher does fall to us at 15 where do you play him? RT? LT? Move him inside? Move one of those 2 inside?

I'd leave this up to Alex Gibbs. It's a good problem to have. If Adibi and Diles are healthy, where do you put our new linebacker? He's going to compete for a starting spot. I'm just being a devil's advocate to your question of who to pick other than a linebacker.

Polo
03-17-2009, 11:14 AM
If we get a linebacker they need to be exteremely good IMO...They need to have playmaking ability...

I don't see them trying to replace Adibi, and it makes no sense to replace Dile with Laurinitis IMO...Honestly, I'd rather have Bentley come in and play SLB over Laurinitis.

badboy
03-17-2009, 01:07 PM
If Jenkins falls and he might, he's my guy. Could possibly be a starter at FS or CB before season out. Some forget he was #1 DB last season before returning to school and # 1 CB prior to a "slow" time @ combine. I realy hope we do not end up @ 15 without Raji or Jenkins available. My only other pick would be CB Vontae Davis. There would be a place for him and lots of upside. If Wells is selected, I will not moan but think it will be risky

threetoedpete
03-17-2009, 02:49 PM
Ok hot shot.....
Sanchez is a franchise qb that probably needs a year or so on the sideline. Let Schaub play this year and prove he is the guy. I'm not sold as of yet. He has yet to play a full season. Our backup is the backup from an 0-16 team. I'm sure he will workout as a backup, but I don't think he is the future either. Sanchez, learning from Kubiak, would be the future franchise qb. I don't think our qb situation is a done deal, and the first round is for these kinds of guys in my opinion.


List for us all the Jr QBs who came out with only sixteen games under there belts and led there teams into the playoffs after being drafted in the first round ? Sanchez will get drafted high becuase there is a hole at the position because there were so many....with more up side ....who decided to return to school. Don't confsue a supply and demand need with talent. If the others come out both Mathews and Sanchez are end of the first round second day guys. And any team taking either one in '09 is rolling the dice with them big time.

threetoedpete
03-17-2009, 02:59 PM
If Raji Falls or Jerry is there...they'll think about it. Jenkins does nothing for this club in '09. Under your scenario....I move back and Take Barwin.

And just who are all of these later round LB gems we've found outside of dilles ? adibi by my definition is a mid round pick. Look they just signed Antonio. They aren't moving Mario. The only way you get a front line guy who can come in and make the Back seven quicker..and the front seven beter...is taking a highly athletic guy at the OLB. You may not like that. They may not do that....but that seems to fit what they say the are going to do in '09.

jdog
03-17-2009, 06:01 PM
Ok hot shot.....


List for us all the Jr QBs who came out with only sixteen games under there belts and led there teams into the playoffs after being drafted in the first round ? Sanchez will get drafted high becuase there is a whole at the position because there were so many....with more up side ....who decided to return to school. Don't confsue a supply and demand need with talent. If the others come out both Mathews and Sanchez are end of the first round second day guys. And any team taking either one in '09 is rolling the dice with them big time.

That's a pretty specific criteria for comparison. Do these examples all need to be named Bob too?

I already said that he will probably need a year on the sideline. I admit he is similar to Matthews in that he is more talent than experience, but many people are suggesting we take Matthews. I'm asking why not Sanchez in response to Goldensilence's thread on why not take a LB at 15. Also, any player drafted in the first round ends up having to deal with a lot of pressure, and is also going to have a lot of risk associated with them.

I don't think I'm confusing supply and demand with talent either. The only knock against Sanchez that I know of is that he only started for one year, but look at what he accomplished in that year. If those guys that you refer to were in this draft, yeah, it would lower Stafford and Sanchez, but only because it would be one heck of a great draft for quarterbacks.

I don't think there's an OLB for us that isn't more of a late 1st round or early second round guy that we would be reaching to get at 15. If Matthews is someone that we really think will become a dominant, game changing force on our defense, then I am all for drafting him. I would prefer to draft a defensive player in the first round, but I think at 15 it's a reach. That's why I initially suggested trading down.

Keep in mind the point of this thread. So, you're saying that OLB is the best value for our team at 15? We're not talking about what the Texans WILL do because we really don't know and that kind of ruins the point of the thread. If we were talking about what will the Texans do, I'd say trade down and draft an OLB or DB.

76Texan
03-17-2009, 06:38 PM
After watching the USC/Oregon game last year and the rematch this year, plus the USC/Oregon St game this yr, I'd say there should be a lot of concern drafting a LB at #15!

threetoedpete
03-18-2009, 12:40 AM
It was a widly inacurate statement. that's all I know about it. and that number would be zero.

Goldensilence
03-18-2009, 01:33 AM
Sanchez is a franchise qb that probably needs a year or so on the sideline. Let Schaub play this year and prove he is the guy. I'm not sold as of yet. He has yet to play a full season. Our backup is the backup from an 0-16 team. I'm sure he will workout as a backup, but I don't think he is the future either. Sanchez, learning from Kubiak, would be the future franchise qb. I don't think our qb situation is a done deal, and the first round is for these kinds of guys in my opinion.

I don't think Sanchez is a franchise QB. With successive NFL QB flops in Leinart and John David Booty I'd be hesistant as a GM to take him. If Schaub doesn't make the cut there will be much better QB prospects next year or I'd take Nate Davis in the third.


You might be right, but you can make the same argument for linebackers. We've had success with picking linebackers in later rounds. As far as Wells and Moreno, they are game changing backs. Wells is an ideal power back, and we can't make Slaton a work horse between the tackles kind of guy and expect him to last. He'll be DD in a couple of years. Plus, we have that red zone problem which a guy like Wells could solve for us. Moreno is supposed to be a complete back, and it wouldn't hurt to have two great backs. We can agree that RB is a valuable position and we're one injury away from being in a terrible position of need there. As far as linebackers, which guy at 15 is going to be a game changer and make us win more games that we can't find in round 2 or 3?

Not disagreeing that either are legit game breakers for what they are I just feel for each of those you get better value in Shonn Green, Lesean McCoy, or even later nabbing guys like Javon Ringer, PJ Hill or Gartrell.


I think secondary is our greatest need. It's possible that Jenkins could fall to us, so you admit that we should take him? Also, Davis might be inconsistent, but he would be an upgrade at CB for us. Which linebacker at 15 would have a perfect game? None.

I don't think our secondary is terrible if Dunta is back 100% and we can get Bennett to play like his rookie season and IF Reeves can keep improving on his head turning technique. Molden is a big questions mark. Jenkins could possibly fall I've been open about that I just don't see him falling past N.O. who would probably take him b/c they need secondary help worse. Davis might be an upgrade but would you feel he is a good enough upgrade to repalce Dunta?

Nice Strawman with a linebacker having a perfect game.


Yeah, and this doesn't counter your suggestion of linebacker so forget this one. :headhurts:

I don't see him making it past Denver. If he does this one should be a slam dunk. Just don't see it happening though.



I'd leave this up to Alex Gibbs. It's a good problem to have. If Adibi and Diles are healthy, where do you put our new linebacker? He's going to compete for a starting spot. I'm just being a devil's advocate to your question of who to pick other than a linebacker.

Take Diles spot. Just doesn't have the sideline to sideline speed I want our lb corps to have. I like Diles but I see him being maxed out at LB. Barring someone falling like you and I have suggested or a trade down(I'm sure both of us prefer that scenario) Up and down the line I think Lb is best value.

Luigi
03-18-2009, 03:42 AM
Laurinaitis is just another in a long line of failed ohio state linebackers. I wouldn't draft Florida WR's, Michigan RB's, or Ohio State LB's. It's like those schools go out of their way to make over-hyped prospects at those positions.

Maualuga, if he falls to us, maybe; but demeco would have to move to SLB for him. Ryans/Maualuga/Adibi would be an awesome linebacking unit. I think corner is our most pressing need in the first round and there is a lot of talent at corner this year.

jdog
03-18-2009, 10:05 AM
I don't think Sanchez is a franchise QB. With successive NFL QB flops in Leinart and John David Booty I'd be hesistant as a GM to take him. If Schaub doesn't make the cut there will be much better QB prospects next year or I'd take Nate Davis in the third.

Okay, granted. You and threetoedpete have sufficiently beaten me and Sanchez and squashed our silly little dreams. :thumbup

Not disagreeing that either are legit game breakers for what they are I just feel for each of those you get better value in Shonn Green, Lesean McCoy, or even later nabbing guys like Javon Ringer, PJ Hill or Gartrell.

Okay, granted, but only because Slaton is truly a beast. It's like pushing for drafting a middle linebacker when we have Ryans. :thumbup

I don't think our secondary is terrible if Dunta is back 100% and we can get Bennett to play like his rookie season and IF Reeves can keep improving on his head turning technique. Molden is a big questions mark. Jenkins could possibly fall I've been open about that I just don't see him falling past N.O. who would probably take him b/c they need secondary help worse. Davis might be an upgrade but would you feel he is a good enough upgrade to repalce Dunta?

I think this might be the one area worth challenging the idea of drafting a linebacker. If Jenkins falls, I think we draft him.

If Davis is there, which is very likely, I think this is something worth talking about more. Dunta is currently unhappy, franchised, and not at 100%. I like Robinson, Bennett, Reeves, and Molden, but all four together are not seeming to get it done. We don't have a lockdown guy and definitely not two working together. I guess the question is can Davis be that guy. It sounds like no one thinks so.

Nice Strawman with a linebacker having a perfect game.

We're comparing possible LB's at 15 with possible DB's at 15. You made the argument that Davis is inconsistent. Does this mean that sometimes he's great, and sometimes he's horrible? Yeah, it's a straw man if you aren't suggesting that Davis has to always play great. :thinking:

Take Diles spot. Just doesn't have the sideline to sideline speed I want our lb corps to have. I like Diles but I see him being maxed out at LB. Barring someone falling like you and I have suggested or a trade down(I'm sure both of us prefer that scenario) Up and down the line I think Lb is best value.

Let's narrow this down to Matthews, Cushing or Ryans at SLB (with Maualuga at MLB) versus Jenkins or Davis. Sideline to sideline speed is good, but it seems our main problem is either getting to the passer, stopping the secondary from getting beat, and stopping the run in the middle. I think improvement at SLB helps us get to the passer and helps stop the run more. So, I'm sold (although Robinson and Jenkins might be better against run than any current DB combination it wouldn't keep our secondary from getting beat). :thumbup