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View Full Version : Even with top 10 pick DT Okoye on roster, Chron says Texans may draft Peria Jerry


nunusguy
03-11-2009, 09:00 AM
Jerry is nasty and physical. He penetrates and obliterates. But he looks like Amobi Okoye. Jerry is almost 6-2 and 299. Okoye, who was a huge disappointment last season, is 6-2 and 302.

I donít know what Bush and Kollar think about having two tackles the same size. I believe the Texans prefer one of their tackles be a road grader who takes up a lot of space. Frank Okam would be the ideal road grader, but his engine needs a tuneup.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6304426.html

Kaiser Toro
03-11-2009, 09:06 AM
The most interesting part of that article was the 10 yard split data on Matthews

Matthews is usually 6-3, 245, but he lost five pounds before the combine so he would be quicker. He ran the 40 in 4.62 seconds. More importantly, he ran the first 10 yards in 1.49.

Scouts and coaches love to time the first 10 yards because itís an indication of a playerís explosiveness.

Florida receiver Percy Harvin was timed in 1.47. Maryland receiver Darrius Heyward-Bey, the fastest prospect at the draft with a 4.30 in the 40, ran the first 10 yards in 1.44.

Honoring Earl 34
03-11-2009, 09:09 AM
The most interesting part of that article was the 10 yard split data on Matthews

Yep ... not bad at all . I would take Matthews on bloodline and he's still going to get better .

ChampionTexan
03-11-2009, 10:23 AM
Jerry is nasty and physical. He penetrates and obliterates. But he looks like Amobi Okoye. Jerry is almost 6-2 and 299. Okoye, who was a huge disappointment last season, is 6-2 and 302.

I donít know what Bush and Kollar think about having two tackles the same size. I believe the Texans prefer one of their tackles be a road grader who takes up a lot of space. Frank Okam would be the ideal road grader, but his engine needs a tuneup.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6304426.html

Other than the drafting of Okam (in the 5th round), what makes you believe Bush, Kollar, or the Texans prefer a road grader at one of the DT positions?

El Tejano
03-11-2009, 10:41 AM
What I like about Clay 3 is that he's had to work for everything he's received. The article stated that his dad didn't even start him on his highschool team because he was too thin at safety. Yet, this kid still makes his way on to a supreme, NFL coached college team and eventually starts. That says alot to me. That means this kid doesn't have quit in him and is an acheiver.

Vinny
03-11-2009, 10:51 AM
Jerry is nasty and physical. He penetrates and obliterates. But he looks like Amobi Okoye. Jerry is almost 6-2 and 299. Okoye, who was a huge disappointment last season, is 6-2 and 302.

I don’t know what Bush and Kollar think about having two tackles the same size. I believe the Texans prefer one of their tackles be a road grader who takes up a lot of space. Frank Okam would be the ideal road grader, but his engine needs a tuneup.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6304426.html
Okoye has been a huge bust so far, top 10 or not (referencing the title not your commentary). Where did you hear the Texans wanted a 'road grader'? They have avoided players like this in the past and Okam didn't really get much experience last season.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2009, 11:00 AM
Hard to tell what your thoughts are and what was "quoted" from the article.

Good short write up by McClain. That split time by Matthews is incredible. I've been saying people need to focus more on the inital burst for a DE prospect than the full 40 time. How quick off the snap are they? That's what's important. I've been really high on Matthews for a while. Think he's probably a pick in the 20's. If he would be able to play SLB and DE effectively for us, I'd LOVE it.

I think Jerry will be a great DT. I've been on the Raji bandwagon as long as I can remember but his stock has increased tremendously over the months. I think Jerry is a top 20 talent and well worthy of the 15th pick, he would not be a reach. If he fits what Kollar and Bush want to do with the DL then I have no problem with that selection.

I just want us to go BPA with the 15th pick unless there is a good trade down scenario. Hopefully that pick is a defensive player that fills a need, we should have some options.

No question about the level of competition Jerry was facing... that's for sure.
Peria Jerry Highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQgnFw5fMaA)

El Tejano
03-11-2009, 11:01 AM
Okoye has been a huge bust so far, top 10 or not (referencing the title not your commentary). Where did you hear the Texans wanted a 'road grader'? They have avoided players like this in the past and Okam didn't really get much experience last season.

The road grader comment is from the article by John Mcclain, not the poster. John Mcclain thinks we want a road grader. I personally don't want to go DT at all round 1. DT's round 1 haven't necessarily shown any production and that is including our DT we got two years ago.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2009, 11:02 AM
Where did you hear the Texans wanted a 'road grader'? They have avoided players like this in the past and Okam didn't really get much experience last season.

see below

Donít count out Jerry
If the Texans donít take an outside linebacker like Matthews, perhaps they will go for a tackle like Jerry.

Jerry is nasty and physical. He penetrates and obliterates. But he looks like Amobi Okoye. Jerry is almost 6-2 and 299. Okoye, who was a huge disappointment last season, is 6-2 and 302.

I donít know what Bush and Kollar think about having two tackles the same size. I believe the Texans prefer one of their tackles be a road grader who takes up a lot of space. Frank Okam would be the ideal road grader, but his engine needs a tuneup.

Those were McClain's thoughts. I agree though... the Texans actions don't reflect this view. I hope we don't reach for a NT like Brace or Taylor who don't fit what we want in a 4-3 DT/NT.

HoustonFrog
03-11-2009, 11:06 AM
The road grader comment is from the article by John Mcclain, not the poster. John Mcclain thinks we want a road grader. I personally don't want to go DT at all round 1. DT's round 1 haven't necessarily shown any production and that is including our DT we got two years ago.

Well there you go then...explains it all. The man has trouble with actual on the field football knowledge. I'm sure he is repeating something he heard from someone who is the brother of a late cousin of one of the coaches.

As far as Matthews and the initial burst...I like that stat more than pure speed. Especially with guys whose success depends on beating their one on one matchup to the punch.

nero THE zero
03-11-2009, 11:08 AM
Okoye hasn't really given the Texans much reason not to draft to replace him. Plus, according to LZ, Jerry is much better at stopping the run than Okoye, which is something we need out of our DT.

And who's to say that Jerry is not to replace Travis Johnson, who only has 10 lbs. on Okoye and Jerry.

Ultimately, if we were to draft Jerry I wouldn't look at it as replacing Okoye specifically, as much as I would look at it as adding a DT we think could be an effective one; because we really lack any consistently effective DT outside of Deljuan.

Vinny
03-11-2009, 11:10 AM
no matter how you slice it, we need both tackles to play like they belong in the league. There were times when Okoye just didn't look like a NFL player last season. It wouldn't shock me to see us go DT with the first pick despite us making at least one bad DT pick and perhaps two bad DT picks the last few years. If this team can't get any better at the run then they won't get teams in 3rd and longs much either.

nunusguy
03-11-2009, 11:11 AM
Okoye has been a huge bust so far, top 10 or not (referencing the title not your commentary). Where did you hear the Texans wanted a 'road grader'? They have avoided players like this in the past and Okam didn't really get much experience last season.
The V-Man is on the scene ! It would seem you honor us less and less frequently with your presence lately ?
You'll have to ask one John McClain about the "road grader" remark as the statement is embedded within his Chronicle article which is found herein. But it sounds to me as if McClain got his offensive & defensive lineman metaphors mixed up ?

TimeKiller
03-11-2009, 11:36 AM
Say no to round 1 DT's. Haven't we learned a lesson or are we calling our 2 round 1 DT's busts now? Okoye has another year to prove what he is, the sack machine rookie or the flopping fish-omore. TJ needs a contract, so I expect him to get up for the season. DelJuan was DelAwesome. Okam needs to show something good or bad so the Texans can make a decision with him. A Smith is said to move inside on passing downs, Bulman can too...I just think our starters need to produce in the new system because our depth chart at DT top to bottom will be set if they do.

Texan4Ever
03-11-2009, 11:40 AM
Jerry would be a horrible pick for the Texans. We already have Travis Johnson and Okoye and we need a big, beefy guy to eat up space next to those guys. Jerry wouldn't help one bit.

If you look at teams that run a 4-3 D, they have a beffy DT. For example, the Bengals have Domata Peko who weighs around 330-lbs, Carolina has Makke Kemoateu who weighs around 340-lbs and the Jags have Henderson at 335-lbs. My point is we need a space-eater to free up space for Okoye or whomever to rush the defender and disrupt the QB.

Jackie Chiles
03-11-2009, 11:42 AM
no matter how you slice it, we need both tackles to play like they belong in the league. There were times when Okoye just didn't look like a NFL player last season. It wouldn't shock me to see us go DT with the first pick despite us making at least one bad DT pick and perhaps two bad DT picks the last few years. If this team can't get any better at the run then they won't get teams in 3rd and longs much either.

Gotta agree with this 100%. If I had my pick today I would want us to draft Peria Jerry. I'd let him play next to Okoye and hope they both create havoc and if Amobi can't improve we have our 3-tech in Jerry. Jerry is 25 so he should be able to step in immediately and not be overwhelmed. It just seems, to me, that he is going to be a pretty darn good player at an important position that we happen to need an upgrade at. I doubt he turns into a superstar but he can be a very good d-lineman for us and if Antonio Smith works out we would go from having 1 good linemen to 3 in one off season.

Jackie Chiles
03-11-2009, 11:44 AM
Jerry would be a horrible pick for the Texans. We already have Travis Johnson and Okoye and we need a big, beefy guy to eat up space next to those guys. Jerry wouldn't help one bit.

If you look at teams that run a 4-3 D, they have a beffy DT. For example, the Bengals have Domata Peko who weighs around 330-lbs, Carolina has Makke Kemoateu who weighs around 340-lbs and the Jags have Henderson at 335-lbs. My point is we need a space-eater to free up space for Okoye or whomever to rush the defender and disrupt the QB.

The Eagles line is smaller than ours and they are a top unit against the run. I think it has to do more with talent and scheme than size. I'm sure there are other teams that don't have elite size that are waaaay better against the run than we are but the Eagles just popped into my head immediately. We also now have two DEs that are going to be good against the run, one of the being huge for a DE and the other one pretty darn big.

Errant Hothy
03-11-2009, 11:45 AM
At the start of next season Okoye will be about the averge age on an NFL rookie. We all knew that drafting somebody that young woulf equate into a project, which is what he is. I woulnd't call him a bust just yet.

Is TJ a bust? In the eyes of the fans certainly, but listening to the coaching staff tells a different story.

Has either lived up to where they were picked? Not really, but DTs rarely do. DT is the only position that might challenge QB for difficulty to grade, and the bust ratio might slightly be higher for 1st round DTs then 1st round QBs. I would no longer draft a DT in the first round, no mater what team, no mater that teams need, no mated how well the prostect grades out.

Here's to hoping that a new mind set on the D, and a new D-line coach irons out the issues with Okoye. 4.5 sacks in your first month of live games in the NFL is was a great flash of potential.

Second Honeymoon
03-11-2009, 12:02 PM
I'd have no problem if they drafted Peria. This is pretty much a make or break move for Okoye and if he contines to be unimpressive, you at least have a prospect in Peria to fill the void. If Okoye plays well, then you have a battery of DTs that could potentially be elite. If they feel he can make the jump to the NFL and is a safe pick, make the move. If they have any reservations or feel he is a long term prospect, then they should probably draft someone else. I didn't watch that much SEC football this year due to Little League commitments so I really can't tell you much about Peria other than the fact that Zeirlein mentioned him as a Texans possibility back in January.

I don't know if Maleauga is going to be someone they covet even if he falls to them at #15. Cushing doesn't seem to be someone they are realy high on probably due to his injury and him not having a lot of experience/film. I don't know if Everette Brown is even someone they covet. This should be a very wierd draft and with McNabb and Cutler both potentially being traded pre-draft, there could be a lot of movement. One way or another, there are going to be some terrific football players at #15 and even beyond. Here is to hoping they make the prudent move and continue to acquire top talent through the draft...with a continued focus on defensive draft picks.

RipTraxx
03-11-2009, 12:11 PM
I read/heard somewhere (could have been here) that 1st round DTs have the HIGHEST number of bust then any other position....so im not really looking for another high-round DT. I'd rather have a bunch of guys that i can rotate and keep fresh.


Then again, the definition of bust vary from person to person but still.

pbat488
03-11-2009, 01:04 PM
I read/heard somewhere (could have been here) that 1st round DTs have the HIGHEST number of bust then any other position....so im not really looking for another high-round DT. I'd rather have a bunch of guys that i can rotate and keep fresh.


Then again, the definition of bust vary from person to person but still.

DT is the only position that might challenge QB for difficulty to grade, and the bust ratio might slightly be higher for 1st round DTs then 1st round QBs.

You might have read it here about 15 minutes before you posted..

RipTraxx
03-11-2009, 01:19 PM
You might have read it here about 15 minutes before you posted..

Ha!!!

Good thing i put the disclaimer i guess.

Still dont want Jerry tho.

ChampionTexan
03-11-2009, 01:32 PM
Jerry would be a horrible pick for the Texans. We already have Travis Johnson and Okoye and we need a big, beefy guy to eat up space next to those guys. Jerry wouldn't help one bit.

If you look at teams that run a 4-3 D, they have a beffy DT. For example, the Bengals have Domata Peko who weighs around 330-lbs, Carolina has Makke Kemoateu who weighs around 340-lbs and the Jags have Henderson at 335-lbs. My point is we need a space-eater to free up space for Okoye or whomever to rush the defender and disrupt the QB.

Of the top 5 rated 4-3 defenses last year (Philly, Washington, New York Giants, Minnesota and Tennessee), the largest starting interior lineman was Haynesworth at 320 pounds. Even the Williams' in Minny go only 311 and 317.

A little larger than Okoye and Travis Johnson but testimony to the fact that you don't absolutely have to have the 330+ pound road-graders at DT to run a very successful 4-3 defense.

nero THE zero
03-11-2009, 01:39 PM
Of the top 5 rated 4-3 defenses last year (Philly, Washington, New York Giants, Minnesota and Tennessee), the largest starting interior lineman was Haynesworth at 320 pounds. Even the Williams' in Minny go only 311 and 317.

A little larger than Okoye and Travis Johnson but testimony to the fact that you don't absolutely have to have the 330+ pound road-graders at DT to run a very successful 4-3 defense.

Yea, Pat Williams goes 317lbs and the government was behind 9/11. Give me a break.

Our scheme supposedly puts a premium on athleticism all along the line. So, a guy too big or unathletic would be an ill fit. But, perpetrating myths like Pat Williams weighs less than 320lbs. doesn't help that case any.

BSofA04
03-11-2009, 01:43 PM
Of the top 5 rated 4-3 defenses last year (Philly, Washington, New York Giants, Minnesota and Tennessee), the largest starting interior lineman was Haynesworth at 320 pounds. Even the Williams' in Minny go only 311 and 317.

A little larger than Okoye and Travis Johnson but testimony to the fact that you don't absolutely have to have the 330+ pound road-graders at DT to run a very successful 4-3 defense.
I find it hard to believe that Fat Albert is 320lbs. Seems closer to the 330-340 range. Just like I have a hard time believing Amobi Okoye's playing weight is 302 lbs. But unlike Haynesworth, Amobi's probably only 285-290 lbs.

Mr teX
03-11-2009, 01:50 PM
i didn't like the okoye pick, nor the TJ pick...& i wouldn't like this 1 if it came to fruition. I just think 4-3 DT's are a dime a dozen & 3rd round is the absolute earliest they should be taken; 3-4 DT's are a different story.

who cares if Okam doesn't have a motor like a john randle! he doesn't need to run anywhere! All he needs to do is hold ground in the middle with an occasional slide left or right & take up 2 blockers Gilbert Brown style. Stick his wide ass in the rotation & let him rotate with robinson/bulman. If okoye doesn't step his game up, start rotating bulman in with him & robinson will rotate with Okam....TJ can go look for a job with another team. problem solved.

ChampionTexan
03-11-2009, 02:16 PM
Yea, Pat Williams goes 317lbs and the government was behind 9/11. Give me a break.

Our scheme supposedly puts a premium on athleticism all along the line. So, a guy too big or unathletic would be an ill fit. But, perpetrating myths like Pat Williams weighs less than 320lbs. doesn't help that case any.

Just going off of NFL.com and the Vikings official roster! ;)

Texans_Chick
03-11-2009, 03:24 PM
Yea, Pat Williams goes 317lbs and the government was behind 9/11. Give me a break.

Our scheme supposedly puts a premium on athleticism all along the line. So, a guy too big or unathletic would be an ill fit. But, perpetrating myths like Pat Williams weighs less than 320lbs. doesn't help that case any.

Haha.

I'm not sure that article added much factual information about our Texans. What they want in a lineman. Did have the nice bit about Matthews.

Best run stopping 4-3s have at least one athletic wideload DT. (Haha on those weights for Haynesworth and the Williams).

Given our salary cap allocation to the defensive line, I don't see throwing good money after bad by getting another rookie in the middle who is the same sizes as the guys already there and play the same sort of position.

As many positive things as you have read about Jerry in this draft, you can read 10 times as many about Okoye in his draft.

Errant Hothy
03-11-2009, 03:27 PM
Haha.

I'm not sure that article added much factual information about our Texans. What they want in a lineman. Did have the nice bit about Matthews.

Best run stopping 4-3s have at least one athletic wideload DT. (Haha on those weights for Haynesworth and the Williams).

Given our salary cap allocation to the defensive line, I don't see throwing good money after bad by getting another rookie in the middle who is the same sizes as the guys already there and play the same sort of position.

As many positive things as you have read about Jerry in this draft, you can read 10 times as many about Okoye in his draft.

Yup, and Okoye has 2 years expeirence on Jerry; and he's 2-3 years younger then Jerry.

I think this is the year the Okoye starts to make an impact.

MojoMan
03-11-2009, 03:34 PM
I don't believe this will happen. It is a slow time for NFL news and John McClain needs to write about something. Notice he did not actually predict that Jerry would be selected.

If the Texans select Jerry in the first round, they will have three first round DT's on their roster. The Texan's coaching staff is apparently happy with Travis Johnson and his play. He may not be a pro-bowler, but he is solid. Okoye is coming off of a typical sophomore slump season. And let's not forget, Okoye is not yet 22 years old. The coaches are not going to give up on Okoye this quickly. As I am sure most of you recall, he was outstanding in his rookie year. With a solid offseason, Okoye can be that player again and even be better than that player.

Unless the Texans trade either Johnson or Okoye, they will not select Jerry with their first round pick. The team has other, more pressing needs than another first round DT.

Polo
03-11-2009, 03:48 PM
4-3 DT's that take a majority of the snaps aren't normally space eaters.

And I doubt our DT's will play the same next year...

If we are going to an attack type defense then the big huge guys that don't move that well are left without a niche...

Look at the Tampa Bay 2002 championship roster...Warren Sapp was the biggest guy on the line @ a little over 300 lbs.

I could very much see the Texans getting this guy.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2009, 04:24 PM
I don't view Travis Johnson as a "should be" starting DT on this team. If y'all do, fine, so be it. But I think you're kidding yourselves. I think he provides quality depth. Are the coaches becoming happier with him and will this "new scheme" benefit him? I really really hope so. With that said, I think he provides great back up depth. We're going to be rotating the DL... all the DL players around quite a bit. We need good players to alternate in and out.

I'm not about to give up on Okoye and neither will the coaches... fans shouldn't either. From most of the comments I've heard from Kubiak/Smith, they're pleased with the progress that Amobi has shown. I fully expect him to have a better year this season and an even better the following year.

Amobi + TJ as our starting DTs? You're kidding me. If we really want to have a dominant defensive line, we can't be satisfied with this. And having Robinson, Bulman and Okam as the primary back ups.

I say add another high motor potentially special DT and add a true pass rusher for passing downs. Relegate TJ to back up and alternate these guys frequently and constantly.

A really good DL is when they're going 100% at every snap. This staff, this CURRENT staff has committed to winning in the trenches. With the Mario and Amobi selections, they've commited to getting after Peyton and every other QB in the league. You don't quit now because you're scared. Amobi was not a mistake. He's getting better, we knew and they knew he was a work in progress. He's developing and with more talent and more rotations, he's going to be a stud.

I'm not clamoring for the pick of Peria Jerry. Would I be happy with it? sure. What I am a proponent of is building up the DL to be a monster unit. I want fans of other NFL teams to be using the Texans as an example of a DL they'd like to have. How dominant we are and how we set the bar for having an elite D-Line.

Polo
03-11-2009, 04:26 PM
If we get the Jerry kid I have a hard time believing he'd start.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2009, 04:39 PM
If we get the Jerry kid I have a hard time believing he'd start.
I'm having a hard time seeing many of these potential picks at 15 starting. WR, RB, DE, OLB, CB, S??

With that said, I didn't think Duane Brown would start until at least 4 games in and probably closer to mid season. They threw the rookie into the fire and made him learn from experience. I wasn't sure that was the best idea... but am I really going to argue with Kubiak and Gibbs!!?? haha

J-Russ
03-11-2009, 05:07 PM
I'm having a hard time seeing many of these potential picks at 15 starting. WR, RB, DE, OLB, CB, S??

With that said, I didn't think Duane Brown would start until at least 4 games in and probably closer to mid season. They threw the rookie into the fire and made him learn from experience. I wasn't sure that was the best idea... but am I really going to argue with Kubiak and Gibbs!!?? haha

They started him from day one because Salaam was just terrible. Why give the old guy rep if hes going to do the same if not worst then a rookie LT? If he was actually decent then we might of handle Brown's growth differently.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2009, 05:12 PM
They started him from day one because Salaam was just terrible. Why give the old guy rep if hes going to do the same if not worst then a rookie LT? If he was actually decent then we might of handle Brown's growth differently.
True. I thought Salaam did decently the year prior. I think his play fell dramatically from the '07 season to the '08 season. All I had to go off of during the summer was that Salaam hadn't regressed any. I was a fan of the D. Brown pick, I just knew he was raw and would probably need grooming.

I think you're spot on in the sense it was more of Salaam's play regressing than Brown truly being "ready" to start day 1 at LT. Hard for me to see an available DE, CB, S, etc. to beat out any guys for a start. There's a case for Jerry to beat out TJ. A LB to beat out Diles (injury comeback?), doubt Reeves/Dunta get beat out. If we want a starter on Day 1 the best bet is Jerry or an OLB. I just think the term "starter" is overused. We just need a guy that gets a lot of snaps... that's what's important.

TimeKiller
03-11-2009, 05:32 PM
I'd like to know exactly how many guys everyone intends to have rotating in and out at DT? Especially if Okoye turns back into ManChild! You would want him out there almost every snap like Mario.

Okoye, Johnson, Robinson, Bulman, Smith on passing downs, Okam maybe? That's already 6 guys sharing 3 D-Line spots, most likely 1 as long as Okoye and Smith aren't gassed or being ridiculously paced. Not that I wouldn't welcome an impact guy at DT but if Jerry came out on fire in his rookie year you would want him playing most of the snaps too...so that kind of makes the D-line carousel idea useless. We have great depth guys I think so I'm fine with D-line carousel and would totally welcome one of the smaller DE/passrush specialty guys as well.

kiwitexansfan
03-11-2009, 06:01 PM
I'm happy with TJ, Okoye and Okam and the others who can play there.

Okam and Okoye are both still pups who should be improving.

If the best player available at 15 is a DT, I can live with one being taken. Great teams have great lines, can't be too good there.

Goatcheese
03-11-2009, 06:17 PM
I like Jerry, but I think he's near, or may have already reached his peak potential. He's probably not going to develope a much bigger body. I don't know if you want to spend that high of a pick on a guy who will be 25 before he plays his first NFL snap. I could see this as a good pick for the Texans. If they're serious about having an attacking defense he will certainly give us that.

I also like Baker out of Hampton. He's a boom or bust type of talent, but I think his ceiling is very high. He's almost as fast/quick as Okoye, but 30 lbs heavier. He is alot like everybody's favorite DT prospect BJ Raji, but alittle more raw, and hasn't been developed with a proper strength program. He's not going to be an instant starter like Jerry would, and is a bigger risk of being a bust though. The Texans could probably pick him up in the 4th, or maybe reach in the 3rd.

TheRealJoker
03-11-2009, 07:08 PM
Jerry is a low ceiling/high floor type player. I have a hard time grasping the concept of making a "safe pick" on DT when rookie DTs almost always have a substantial learning curve. This is a playoffs or bust year for Kubes and I think he'd rather use that pick on a playmaker with a higher ceiling at a position where rookies have historically had success....like OLB :)

mussop
03-11-2009, 07:24 PM
never mind!

PHAROAH
03-12-2009, 05:45 AM
I hope we don't take a DT in the first when we have more pressing needs at other positions

El Tejano
03-12-2009, 07:39 AM
I saw this guys highlights. He seems pretty disruptive, but I think he's a reach at 15 only because he isn't anything special. I wont get mad if we draft him but I'm kind of ready to make that position happen through a different round or FA. I'm getting tired of investing that much money in DTs.

Hagar
03-12-2009, 10:17 AM
Its crossed my mind that they may go after Perry.

Its moot at this point because most of the good DT free agents have been signed, but why wouldn't the bring in a know commodity like Rocky Benard instead of rolling the dice on another draft pick. D-line has been a problem since the start of this team and given the importance they put on the position, you'd think they'd fixed it by now.

El Tejano
03-12-2009, 10:24 AM
Its crossed my mind that they may go after Perry.

Its moot at this point because most of the good DT free agents have been signed, but why wouldn't the bring in a know commodity like Rocky Benard instead of rolling the dice on another draft pick. D-line has been a problem since the start of this team and given the importance they put on the position, you'd think they'd fixed it by now.

I'm assuming your talking about before Bernard signed with NYG?
I can also see that this draft is pretty deep in DT talent.

nunusguy
03-12-2009, 10:37 AM
Anybody else hear LZ on 1560 this morning ? If so you heard him join the "Texans may draft Jerry" club. He didn't predict it, but you know he knows some real NLF Insiders (his Dad is of course is the Steelers OLine coach), and he said a scout he knows says it could happen because Jerry
right now is a better player than Okoye, who is of course a major disappointment.
LZ basically said (in so many words), you gotta cut your losses and if you can win/get in the playoffs and beyond with guys like Jerry who can play you draft them so you can realize your goal.

El Tejano
03-12-2009, 10:41 AM
I'm just trippin on how we would replace Okoye before TJ. Or am I not understanding what LZ said?

GP
03-12-2009, 10:53 AM
For me, this season is Okoye's year to show that he's an NFL dlineman.

I compare it to the trial year with David Carr and Kubiak. After that season, you saw that David was just not going to get it.

With a new style of defense, so to speak, and with the coaching changes, and with help for the defense in the draft, this is the year that I feel he has got to show that he belongs on the line.

I do not fault the Texans for drafting him. In fact, that was a smart gamble rather than the reach for Babin by the previous regime.

It is definitely time for him to show that he can solidify his draft position. If not, then we took a 2nd rounder in the middle of the 1st round...which I think might have been some of the draft guru analysis when the pick occurred. The draftniks aren't always wrong.

El Tejano
03-12-2009, 10:56 AM
Well if you think about it, this is would be Okoye's rookie season. Hopefully that trip with Mario to The ProBowl, lit a fire under him and he improves. I would think that since TJ was one of Casserly's boys, he would be the odd man out.

Mr teX
03-12-2009, 10:57 AM
I'm just trippin on how we would replace Okoye before TJ. Or am I not understanding what LZ said?

That's what i don't understand. TJ has shown zilch in regard to where he was picked & has had far more time & coaching to do it. If they're giving up on Okoye this early, I'd have to start seriously considering Kubiak's competence as a head coach.

Goldensilence
03-12-2009, 11:06 AM
IF they chose Jerry I'll go along but I don't see the value in it honestly. I might sound like a broken record but Smith like everything else on the defense misused his DT's. They aren't stand up guys but more gap disrupting DTs. I hope the DT's are much better used this coming year and I do think the stars might be lining up for a great year by Okoye. I think the early success of his rookie season got to him as well.

I still see a big IF to drafting Jerry but I don't see it happening. There's a lot better value to drafting Matthews as opposed to him.

nunusguy
03-12-2009, 11:19 AM
I'm just trippin on how we would replace Okoye before TJ. Or am I not understanding what LZ said?

LZ also mentioned TJ but basically said that TJ will just never realize his promise of being a first-round pick, in other words they've already written him off not so much as a bust but somebody who was drafted way too high.
Of course Kubiak/Smith didn't draft TJ. But LZ didn't say or even suggest they'd keep TJ but not Okoye, whether or not they were to draft Jerry.
Personally I don't think they draft Perry this year if given the choice primarily because of wanting to give Okoye one more year. However IMO TJ is totally expendable.

Ole Miss Texan
03-12-2009, 11:44 AM
I'd have serious doubts about our coaching staff if they've given up on Okoye already. Of course they know all the behind the scenes stuff, but I'd either have doubts of them writing him off so soon or doubts about taking such a risky player so high in the first place. Would a 2 year gamble really be okay with them? I doubt it.

I don't think Okoye really has much to do with it. I think it has to do with the DL as a whole. They want every D-linement to 1st get in the backfield and then chase the ball carrier. I think. LOL, now that I write that, maybe that's just what the philosophy I wanted whatever new DL coach to have. :)

I think Jerry has more mature pass rush moves than Okoye or TJ. I think he'd be a starter in place of TJ. I think Jerry's run defense is underrated due to the fact most people just write it off and say he's a great pass rusher. I think he's above average in this department while not excellent, he has to improve his run D still.

I wouldn't be surprised by the pick at 15 and wouldn't think it was a reach. I think he'll be higher rated by our staff than Matthews. I have a feeling they would rather draft another player at another position, but if it comes down to staying at 15 and Jerry's their highest rated player then I see no reason why the wouldn't draft him. Again, I think this pick wouldn't say anything about giving up on Okoye. I think it'd say just the opposite actually. That we're surrounding the DL with as many playmakers as possible.

Polo
03-12-2009, 11:47 AM
Smoke screen.

Mr. White
03-12-2009, 11:52 AM
I think TJ is a prime example of a guy that's been kept around because of where he was drafted and the money he makes (even though we've been told that none of that would matter under Kubiak.) It's time to cut bait on Travis Johnson. Period.

Amobi Okoye should spell his name Am0bi Ok0ye because there's zero in the middle. Zero is exactly what he's shown in his 2 years here. I don't get the logic for the excuse about his age. His contract still expires in 3 years (give or take.) I hope he turns it around, but history isn't a good indicator.

I guess you could say I'm all for taking Jerry if he's at 15.

Polo
03-12-2009, 11:54 AM
Travis isn't a great player or anything like that, but he gets sold way too short sometiems...

I believe that this season he will change some peoples opinions of him...

Ole Miss Texan
03-12-2009, 11:57 AM
I think Travis Johnson is only making $1 million this season. Someone please verify if that's correct or not.

If so, I don't think he's being overpaid. Make any jokes you want... but worst case, I see Johnson as being an above average back up DT that would provide quality depth. He's a FA next season? Keep him this year, extend his contract if you want him but for what he's worth. He'll probably try to get more elsewhere.

I think it's too risky to cut him (if he's making $1M) and find someone else comprable for less money.

Errant Hothy
03-12-2009, 12:18 PM
I think Travis Johnson is only making $1 million this season. Someone please verify if that's correct or not.

If so, I don't think he's being overpaid. Make any jokes you want... but worst case, I see Johnson as being an above average back up DT that would provide quality depth. He's a FA next season? Keep him this year, extend his contract if you want him but for what he's worth. He'll probably try to get more elsewhere.

I think it's too risky to cut him (if he's making $1M) and find someone else comprable for less money.

TJ's cap hit is 2.2 million

Okoye's is 2.5

source: http://www.inthebullseye.com/cap.html

badboy
03-12-2009, 12:19 PM
I hope we don't take a DT in the first when we have more pressing needs at other positionsPlease explain your view. SMith and Kubes have identified priority needs as defensive end opposite Mario to take off the pressure (addressed by FA Smith and hopefully a draft pick); a running back to increase scoring in red zone (has not been addressed) and stopping the running game of the opponent. None of the LB mentioned as possible at #15 convinces me the run game will be shut down. Adding a corner or FS (I do want one later rounds to counter passing game) will not help against run. A DT like Raji or Brace should do just that and both can collapse the pocket.

badboy
03-12-2009, 12:22 PM
Peria added to TJ, Okoye,Okam and DelJuan Robinson helps stop the run exactly how? Now if he replaces one of these guys ,ok but still does not fix the problem that we can't stop the runner.

El Tejano
03-12-2009, 12:29 PM
Smoke screen.

AAAAHHHH!!! I was waiting for the smoke screen answer. You sir, have earned yourself the title of First Smoke Screen Response of the 09 season!:fans::whip::specnatz:

nunusguy
03-12-2009, 12:55 PM
I think Jerry has more mature pass rush moves than Okoye or TJ. I think he'd be a starter in place of TJ. I think Jerry's run defense is underrated due to the fact most people just write it off and say he's a great pass rusher. I think he's above average in this department while not excellent, he has to improve his run D still.

I wouldn't be surprised by the pick at 15 and wouldn't think it was a reach. I think he'll be higher rated by our staff than Matthews. I have a feeling they would rather draft another player at another position, but if it comes down to staying at 15 and Jerry's their highest rated player then I see no reason why the wouldn't draft him. Again, I think this pick wouldn't say anything about giving up on Okoye.
FWIW, I'm pretty sure that TJ like C.Matthews at USC was only a 1-year starter at FSU, though most don't seem to think that's a potential caveat ?
I dunno (but you may O-M ?), if they could start both Okoye & Jerry as their primary DTs ? Both are of course socalled 1-gapper, 3-technique types and maybe Bush/Kohler would want that kind of DT tandem on the field together ? Of course TJ is of that same genre himself and three is definitely a crowd.
But Jerry is the best interior DLineman I saw play all year and I like him even better than Raji after the way that Eric Wood handled Raji in the Senior-Bowl game.
Oh, and LZ did say Jerry's defense against the run was underrated.

Polo
03-12-2009, 01:25 PM
AAAAHHHH!!! I was waiting for the smoke screen answer. You sir, have earned yourself the title of First Smoke Screen Response of the 09 season!:fans::whip::specnatz:

:takeabow:

Jackie Chiles
03-12-2009, 02:43 PM
Jerry would be a big upgrade against the run compared to TJ. The last two seasons he has had 14 and 18 tackles for a loss in the SEC. I know those stats don't tell the whole story but TJ had 1 TFL this season. I mean Deljuan Robinson showed more in 1 single game than TJ has in his career so far. If we don't draft Jerry I would hope that Robinson gets a legitimate chance to unseat TJ as a starter.

El Tejano
03-12-2009, 02:49 PM
Jerry would be a big upgrade against the run compared to TJ. The last two seasons he has had 14 and 18 tackles for a loss in the SEC. I know those stats don't tell the whole story but TJ had 1 TFL this season. I mean Deljuan Robinson showed more in 1 single game than TJ has in his career so far. If we don't draft Jerry I would hope that Robinson gets a legitimate chance to unseat TJ as a starter.

I agree with this statement.

Errant Hothy
03-12-2009, 02:54 PM
Jerry would be a big upgrade against the run compared to TJ. The last two seasons he has had 14 and 18 tackles for a loss in the SEC. I know those stats don't tell the whole story but TJ had 1 TFL this season. I mean Deljuan Robinson showed more in 1 single game than TJ has in his career so far. If we don't draft Jerry I would hope that Robinson gets a legitimate chance to unseat TJ as a starter.

Yeah! Cause we all know that college stats translate exactly to NFL stats. Right?

Signed,

David Carr

Joking aside: TJ had 17.5 TFLs his last year at FSU ('04), and and 13.5 in ('02) as only an 8 game starter. He playes as a reserve for most of '03 and still picked up 3 TFLs.

Only Ron Simmons (44, 1977-80) and Darnell Dockett (65, 2000-03) had more stops for losses in a career at Florida State that Travis' 43.5.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2005draft/Johnson,Travis-DT-Florida%20State.htm

Jackie Chiles
03-12-2009, 03:09 PM
Yeah! Cause we all know that college stats translate exactly to NFL stats. Right?

Signed,

David Carr

Joking aside: TJ had 17.5 TFLs his last year at FSU ('04), and and 13.5 in ('02) as only an 8 game starter. He playes as a reserve for most of '03 and still picked up 3 TFLs.



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2005draft/Johnson,Travis-DT-Florida%20State.htm

Jerry is a better prospect than TJ was. The big knock on TJ was that he really hadn't shown up before his senior season and his work ethic was questionable. So far it looks like those flags were warranted. I also specifically said after listing his stats that they do not tell the entire story but they certainly are a factor. Good production against good competition for two years in a row. Just because it didn't pan out for a player like TJ or a one year wonder like Carr doesn't mean production should be thrown out the window.

Errant Hothy
03-12-2009, 03:24 PM
Jerry is a better prospect than TJ was. The big knock on TJ was that he really hadn't shown up before his senior season and his work ethic was questionable. So far it looks like those flags were warranted. I also specifically said after listing his stats that they do not tell the entire story but they certainly are a factor. Good production against good competition for two years in a row. Just because it didn't pan out for a player like TJ or a one year wonder like Carr doesn't mean production should be thrown out the window.

13.5 TFLs as an 8 game starter is indeed "showing up", but you are correct that there were some flags about TJ's consitency. College production can be useful for some positions, and others not so much. QB and DT being the best 2 examples of where college production can be really misleading. Past drafts are littered with busts at those 2 positions, a fair number bigger ones then either TJ or David Carr. Does the name Dewayne Robertson ring a bell?

Jackie Chiles
03-12-2009, 03:38 PM
13.5 TFLs as an 8 game starter is indeed "showing up", but you are correct that there were some flags about TJ's consitency. College production can be useful for some positions, and others not so much. QB and DT being the best 2 examples of where college production can be really misleading. Past drafts are littered with busts at those 2 positions, a fair number bigger ones then either TJ or David Carr. Does the name Dewayne Robertson ring a bell?

Oh yeah, I remember him. He went in the same draft as some guy named Kevin Williams.

I can understand your point about the DT position being difficult to project but it is critical to the success of a defense and the reward outweighs the risk IMO. Saying that DT has a higher bust rate than other positions might be true and it might just be perception, I would have to see some good evidence on that to really sell me on it. I can think of a ton of busts at other positions like WR, DE, RB etc. All drafts are littered with busts, its just the nature of the game. Just because we got burned with TJ doesn't mean we couldn't strike gold with Jerry. I am also still optimistic on Amobi but I don't see how having one more talented DT could ever hurt.

Errant Hothy
03-12-2009, 03:43 PM
Oh yeah, I remember him. He went in the same draft as some guy named Kevin Williams.

I can understand your point about the DT position being difficult to project but it is critical to the success of a defense and the reward outweighs the risk IMO. Saying that DT has a higher bust rate than other positions might be true and it might just be perception, I would have to see some good evidence on that to really sell me on it. I can think of a ton of busts at other positions like WR, DE, RB etc. All drafts are littered with busts, its just the nature of the game. Just because we got burned with TJ doesn't mean we couldn't strike gold with Jerry. I am also still optimistic on Amobi but I don't see how having one more talented DT could ever hurt.

I'm not anywhere near convinced that adding a 3rd 1st round DT to a defense that only has 1 1st round DE, 0 1st round LBs, 1 1st round CB and 0 1st round S is the smartest way to improve the overall effectiveness of the unit. Espically when Kubiak has repeatedly stated that TJ did everything the team asked of him, and Amobi is still younger then all of the DTs in this draft.

bigbrewster2000
03-12-2009, 03:49 PM
Oh yeah, I remember him. He went in the same draft as some guy named Kevin Williams.

I can understand your point about the DT position being difficult to project but it is critical to the success of a defense and the reward outweighs the risk IMO. Saying that DT has a higher bust rate than other positions might be true and it might just be perception, I would have to see some good evidence on that to really sell me on it. I can think of a ton of busts at other positions like WR, DE, RB etc. All drafts are littered with busts, its just the nature of the game. Just because we got burned with TJ doesn't mean we couldn't strike gold with Jerry. I am also still optimistic on Amobi but I don't see how having one more talented DT could ever hurt.

I personally think we will see alot more production from both TJ and Amobi Okoye. They both looked better at the end of the season when they werent doing all that read and rweact bull crap. We will see. I think that we will pick a LB in the 1st. JMO

Jackie Chiles
03-12-2009, 04:06 PM
I'm not anywhere near convinced that adding a 3rd 1st round DT to a defense that only has 1 1st round DE, 0 1st round LBs, 1 1st round CB and 0 1st round S is the smartest way to improve the overall effectiveness of the unit. Espically when Kubiak has repeatedly stated that TJ did everything the team asked of him, and Amobi is still younger then all of the DTs in this draft.

Kubiak has also said that we need to get Mario more help and when we do his career will really take off. I'm sure he had nice things to say about Weaver last year if anyone asked him. I don't think the FO will be get gun-shy when it comes to drafting on the line but as long as the first round pick goes to a player on defense that I don't believe is a big reach I will be ecstatic.

As far as the overall effectiveness of the unit it has to start with stopping the run. Interior DL play is one of the keys to that and has also been one of our most glaring weaknesses despite all the 1st rounders spent on the position. Getting a DT that could help against the run and collapse the pocket during passing situations would help us a lot. Getting an OLB who can be a force against the run, cover well and blitz well would help. Getting a stud safety would help (but is there one in this draft?).

Texanmike02
03-16-2009, 04:10 PM
I don't understand the disappointment in Okoye. Have we forgotten he was 21 last year. Anyone who's played even a pickup game, after say, 25 or so... can tell you about man strength. There's something that a "man" gets. Throw bench press out, throw mesurables out... I personally think its leverage that they start to understand better. You may diss the Texans for picking him at 10. That I am willing to hear. But this is a boy playing a mans game. Imagine an 8th grader playing on the varsity squad. Now, imagine an 8th grader playing on a state champion squad. That's what we're asking of him. He's not playing the run of the mill vets, he's going against the best 32 centers (or guards) in the world every week.

I'm not normally one to defend players who just play bad, but in this case I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. Look at a lot of DTs. Takes them a while to be physically able to compete with the real men in the league.

Mike

Sal Rosenberg
03-16-2009, 05:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQgnFw5fMaA

I would love to draft this guy especially if we get an extra pick out of it.

thunderkyss
03-16-2009, 05:40 PM
Jerry would be a big upgrade against the run compared to TJ. The last two seasons he has had 14 and 18 tackles for a loss in the SEC. I know those stats don't tell the whole story but TJ had 1 TFL this season. I mean Deljuan Robinson showed more in 1 single game than TJ has in his career so far. If we don't draft Jerry I would hope that Robinson gets a legitimate chance to unseat TJ as a starter.

In my opinion, Deljuan is pushing for Okoye's spot, since they are playing the same position. TJ is playing another position alltogether.

He was drafted to play a 3-4 DE. What ever made someone think he could is beyound me. IMHO, a 3-4 DE should look like Chris Canty, Igor Olshansky(sp), Brett Keisel, or Mario Williams. 6-5 or so, about 300 lbs, and thick. Not fat.... thick.

& we had Robaire Smith on the other side... tsk, tsk, tsk.

I would so much rather acquire a real NT, and let Deljuan & TJ share the load.

But I think Deljuan played so well in '07, he earned a spot in the regular rotation. They can't demote Okoye to third string, and TJ has also earned the right to be on the field.

Believe it or not, he's the best thing we got out there, at DT.

But I would think it would be a mistake, to draft another player in the TJ, Okoye, Deljaun mold.

& if they do, it's time to cut bait. I think TJ is the best we've got, but I would understand, if they let him go, to keep Okoye(their #1 pick) & Deljuan(the bargain).

TimeKiller
03-16-2009, 06:53 PM
The best we have in production and potential is Okoye, I don't know how that can be disputed.

painekiller
03-17-2009, 01:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQgnFw5fMaA

I would love to draft this guy especially if we get an extra pick out of it.

I'd rather have this kid, Ziggy Hood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fiWgAZf0v4)

Goatcheese
03-17-2009, 03:35 AM
Okoye had a bunch of QB pressures, and near sacks last season. It's not like he was invisible. Tommie Harris didn't exactly set the league on fire with 6.5 sacks in his first two seasons combined.

Hmm, what Texans 2nd year DT has 6.5 career sacks despite playing hindered by injuries his second season, and starting 6 fewer games than Harris?

TimeKiller
03-17-2009, 07:21 AM
Okoye?

Ziggy Hood looks explosive coming up the middle and very slippery.

El Tejano
03-17-2009, 07:59 AM
I just think if we want to address DL with a DT, it can be done in the second round. Roy Miller.

Errant Hothy
03-17-2009, 08:09 AM
I just think if we want to address DL with a DT, it can be done in the second round. Roy Miller.

You might be able to grab Miller later then that, like by a round or two.

awtysst
03-17-2009, 09:31 AM
I just think if we want to address DL with a DT, it can be done in the second round. Roy Miller.

Actually you could get Roy in the 6th or 5th(if you really want to be sure to get him) No need to burn a second on him.

El Tejano
03-17-2009, 11:47 AM
You might be able to grab Miller later then that, like by a round or two.

Ok. Let's do that then.

El Tejano
03-17-2009, 11:48 AM
Actually you could get Roy in the 6th or 5th(if you really want to be sure to get him) No need to burn a second on him.

Sounds good to me.

badboy
03-17-2009, 12:50 PM
Okoye, Tj ,Del Juan and Okam did very little to stop the run last season. Jerry to add zip imo. Either get a grader you think can play(Raji if there or Brace in round 1 in trade down or 2nd if you think he'll be there) or stop talking about stopping the run. Our LB corps is not set up to stop the RB. Ryans is getting beat up.

El Tejano
03-17-2009, 12:54 PM
Okoye, Tj ,Del Juan and Okam did very little to stop the run last season. Jerry to add zip imo. Either get a grader you think can play(Raji if there or Brace in round 1 in trade down or 2nd if you think he'll be there) or stop talking about stopping the run. Our LB corps is not set up to stop the RB. Ryans is getting beat up.

Correct. However, DelJuan did more than any of them to stop the run.

threetoedpete
03-18-2009, 01:06 AM
Other than the drafting of Okam (in the 5th round), what makes you believe Bush, Kollar, or the Texans prefer a road grader at one of the DT positions?

the amount of stops they got on third and short and fourth and short in '09?

http://www.chron.com/databases/texansplaybook.html?appSession=445766422681043

not saying...just saying

badboy
03-18-2009, 11:18 AM
Correct. However, DelJuan did more than any of them to stop the run.Yep., but not enough imo to say problem solved or Smith and Kubes would not have kept bringing up stopping the run as a priority off season issue.

To me getting another LB @ #15 is like signing a center fielder to back up the 2nd basement who can not stop a grounder. You may have to do it but it ain't the best way.

Ole Miss Texan
03-18-2009, 11:36 AM
Yep., but not enough imo to say problem solved or Smith and Kubes would not have kept bringing up stopping the run as a priority off season issue.

To me getting another LB @ #15 is like signing a center fielder to back up the 2nd basement who can not stop a grounder. You may have to do it but it ain't the best way.

Haha, that's actually kind of a good analogy... interesting!

I still wonder about Kollar's DL ideas. What are his views on what the DL should be doing to stop the run? All I've heard is he wants all 4 DL to get in the backfield... is this every down or just passing downs?

Depending on what he/Bush want the DL to do, it will say a lot as to what the LBs need to do. If the DL is getting in the backfield on everydown, then the LBs, by default, should be expected to stop the run.

badboy
03-18-2009, 02:11 PM
Haha, that's actually kind of a good analogy... interesting!

I still wonder about Kollar's DL ideas. What are his views on what the DL should be doing to stop the run? All I've heard is he wants all 4 DL to get in the backfield... is this every down or just passing downs?

Depending on what he/Bush want the DL to do, it will say a lot as to what the LBs need to do. If the DL is getting in the backfield on everydown, then the LBs, by default, should be expected to stop the run.Rather curious that no one has come out and said exactly what D. is going to look like, just get to the passer. Guess it makes the draft even more mysterious.
guess we have to be satisfied with how well last 2 drafts have worked out.