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dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 01:22 PM
I'm in general agreement with the boards and media that this team needs RB depth and help at safety. However, I don't get this almost universally held belief that it needs LB help- probably high in the draft.

I believe we have 6 LBs that belong on a winning team's 53 man roster:
DRyans- good to very good MLB
Bentley- primary backup LB- good enough to be primary backup on championship caliber team
Adibi- When he played, he looked very good. Health is a concern but I'd hardly call him Dan Morgan at this point. Has the potential to be an elite WLB.
Diles- The light went on for him in week 4. I think he's clearly a starting caliber OLB and the team expects him healthy for minicamp.
Chaun Thompson- Missing in action due to training camp injury. However, he doesn't have a history of injury problems and has the size and athleticism to rush the passer or play a traditional SLB. He's pretty young and had success as a player on a bad Cleveland team.
Coley- Excellent special teams player and a very sure tackler. He sure looked good in the preseason.

Though I agree that uncertainty exists regarding Adibi and Diles, I think the depth is very good as is the versatility and potential of the group. How can this be a greater need than our interior OLine? Myers and Briesel have low ceilings, Pitts will be a free agent, and White doesn't belong on a championship caliber team. Beyond that, Studdard is the primary backup and he's not athletic enought to caddy for Vince YOung, much less protect Matt Schuab. Am I the only person who saw the Cowboy preseason game last year when he imitated an overturned turtle for three quarters?

Someone explain to me why LB is such a major need for this team!- In other words, why is Adibi and Diles going to fail and why isn't Bentley, Coley, and Thompson quality depth?

Specnatz
03-09-2009, 01:26 PM
Most are saying LB because with the projections on where players are going to be drafted who else would be worthy of taking at 15, since you can't predict trades?

badboy
03-09-2009, 01:28 PM
I'm in general agreement with the boards and media that this team needs RB depth and help at safety. However, I don't get this almost universally held belief that it needs LB help- probably high in the draft.

I believe we have 6 LBs that belong on a winning team's 53 man roster:
DRyans- good to very good MLB
Bentley- primary backup LB- good enough to be primary backup on championship caliber team
Adibi- When he played, he looked very good. Health is a concern but I'd hardly call him Dan Morgan at this point. Has the potential to be an elite WLB.
Diles- The light went on for him in week 4. I think he's clearly a starting caliber OLB and the team expects him healthy for minicamp.
Chaun Thompson- Missing in action due to training camp injury. However, he doesn't have a history of injury problems and has the size and athleticism to rush the passer or play a traditional SLB. He's pretty young and had success as a player on a bad Cleveland team.
Coley- Excellent special teams player and a very sure tackler. He sure looked good in the preseason.

Though I agree that uncertainty exists regarding Adibi and Diles, I think the depth is very good as is the versatility and potential of the group. How can this be a greater need than our interior OLine? Myers and Briesel have low ceilings, Pitts will be a free agent, and White doesn't belong on a championship caliber team. Beyond that, Studdard is the primary backup and he's not athletic enought to caddy for Vince YOung, much less protect Matt Schuab. Am I the only person who saw the Cowboy preseason game last year when he imitated an overturned turtle for three quarters?

Someone explain to me why LB is such a major need for this team!- In other words, why is Adibi and Diles going to fail and why isn't Bentley, Coley, and Thompson quality depth?I happen to agree with you, but in my just posted mock I do select a OLB Marcus Freeman in the third round who should win a back up role. I do not know anything about Coley and little about Thompson.

pbat488
03-09-2009, 01:29 PM
I'm not gonna try to explain why LB is our primary need at this point in time when I don't think it is, I still think a true prime-time safety is our biggest need but without one in the draft I don't see it being fulfilled so it is shelved for now.

After safety, I agree with you on your OL assessment. You can never have too many solid linemen, and a Max Unger type who can play throughout the line is a guy I'm really targeting in this draft, but I just don't see it happening for us unless we have a trade situation in which we pick up a late 1st rounder or early 2nd. In the 4th or 5th I would also like to pick up another interior lineman, Studdard just can't cut it.

Polo
03-09-2009, 01:32 PM
I agree with you...

I'm starting to feel the LB pick less and less..


I don't know about O-line, but I am not o.k with our CB or SS situation going forward and trying to build a reputable defense...

Our most reliable corner is Dunta, and who's to say how he's progressed coming back from the leg injury + he never was a super excellent cover guy...After that we have Reeves who I can easily see getting beat/run over...Bennet...not reliable...Molden...Unknown...Even if a rookie doesn't end up a starter it'd be nice to get a highly rated player here to make the position more competitive...It'd be even better if they could win a starting role and add more playmaking to our secondary.

Also getting a highly rated SS would be nice too....But as of right now I can't imagine the Texans not placing CB as a priority...

Right now I'm hoping that Jenkins falls to us, or we trade down and pick up Smith.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 01:33 PM
I'm not gonna try to explain why LB is our primary need at this point in time when I don't think it is, I still think a true prime-time safety is our biggest need but without one in the draft I don't see it being fulfilled so it is shelved for now.

After safety, I agree with you on your OL assessment. You can never have too many solid linemen, and a Max Unger type who can play throughout the line is a guy I'm really targeting in this draft, but I just don't see it happening for us unless we have a trade situation in which we pick up a late 1st rounder or early 2nd. In the 4th or 5th I would also like to pick up another interior lineman, Studdard just can't cut it.

If we traded down 10 spots and took Unger in the first, I'd be freakin' ecstatic!! Then we'd have a second, two 3rds, two 4ths, and two 5ths to grab RBs, Safeties, a speed rusher, and whatever else we are in the mood for. That would be ideal!!

nunusguy
03-09-2009, 01:39 PM
Most are saying LB because with the projections on where players are going to be drafted who else would be worthy of taking at 15, since you can't predict trades?

The only LB (in the 4-3 scheme atleast) who's clearly worth the 15th pick is Curry, and of course he goes much higher.
After that its a question of whether Clay Matthews passes Brian Cushing (as the latter falls all the way out of the teens) and makes it all the way to a worthy pick at 15 ?
If Matthews can't become a mid-teen value by Draft Day and we remain there, we might end up taking just about any position including CB, OLT,
or WR ?

ChampionTexan
03-09-2009, 01:46 PM
I'm in general agreement with the boards and media that this team needs RB depth and help at safety. However, I don't get this almost universally held belief that it needs LB help- probably high in the draft.

I believe we have 6 LBs that belong on a winning team's 53 man roster:
DRyans- good to very good MLB
Bentley- primary backup LB- good enough to be primary backup on championship caliber team
Adibi- When he played, he looked very good. Health is a concern but I'd hardly call him Dan Morgan at this point. Has the potential to be an elite WLB.
Diles- The light went on for him in week 4. I think he's clearly a starting caliber OLB and the team expects him healthy for minicamp.
Chaun Thompson- Missing in action due to training camp injury. However, he doesn't have a history of injury problems and has the size and athleticism to rush the passer or play a traditional SLB. He's pretty young and had success as a player on a bad Cleveland team.
Coley- Excellent special teams player and a very sure tackler. He sure looked good in the preseason.

Though I agree that uncertainty exists regarding Adibi and Diles, I think the depth is very good as is the versatility and potential of the group. How can this be a greater need than our interior OLine? Myers and Briesel have low ceilings, Pitts will be a free agent, and White doesn't belong on a championship caliber team. Beyond that, Studdard is the primary backup and he's not athletic enought to caddy for Vince YOung, much less protect Matt Schuab. Am I the only person who saw the Cowboy preseason game last year when he imitated an overturned turtle for three quarters?

Someone explain to me why LB is such a major need for this team!- In other words, why is Adibi and Diles going to fail and why isn't Bentley, Coley, and Thompson quality depth?

Good post - I think it's a very valid observation.

I think many folks assume it's got to be defense, and look at LB as the deepest position at the point we're slated to pick.

I honestly think they'd like to get a DT, but also recognize Raji and Jerry are probably the only players at that position worth using a first round pick on.

The more I think about it, taking an RB or even a WR wouldn't absolutely shock me. I think they would much rather trade down (and I could even see them trading completely out of the first round if they got value), but since willing partners don't always materialize, I could see them going with a Maclin or a Moreno if things fall a certain way. They might not be thrilled with it (and I probably wouldn't be either), but if the value is that much better, I just don't think they'd settle for a lower rated player just because of the side of the ball he played on.

HOU-TEX
03-09-2009, 01:53 PM
Other than D-Ryans, which LB has proven anything on the field? Nobody really

Adibi - Was basically hurt or sick since camp. He looked good once he hit the field, but failed to stay on it. Is he durable enough to play in the NFL?

Diles - Another LB that was decent, but failed to finish healthy. IMO, he's too slow. I think he could be quality depth, but not a starter.

Bentley - He is quality depth. No problems with Bentley at all.

Thompson - Until he can stay on the field, STer at best.

Coley - He impressed me playing 3rd and 4th stringers in the last pre-season game.

IMO, how can we not address LB? To me, the LB position was and has been one of the most inconsistant positions on D.

Here's a snippet of an Alan Burge article about the LB corps. I think the Texans roster is explained nicely in this article.

Linebacker (6): Zach Diles, DeMeco Ryans, Xavier Adibi, Kevin Bentley, Kevis Coley, Chaun Thompson

This is the second of three glaring need areas for the Texans. Expect the Texans to draft at least one linebacker with one coming as early as the 15th pick overall (if they like Brian Cushing and he's there). The Texans took ten linebackers to camp last year so expect three or four new faces added to this group by summer.

http://www.examiner.com/x-778-Houston-Texans-Examiner~y2009m3d7-Time-for-a-Texans-roster-checkup

pbat488
03-09-2009, 02:01 PM
If we traded down 10 spots and took Unger in the first, I'd be freakin' ecstatic!! Then we'd have a second, two 3rds, two 4ths, and two 5ths to grab RBs, Safeties, a speed rusher, and whatever else we are in the mood for. That would be ideal!!

A trade situation somewhat like this has been bubbling inside my head and this just seemed like a good thread to post it in.. again. I posted it in another thread but I just think it would be an ideal situation for the Texans. Pretty much, it consists of us trading #15 and our 3rd rounder to the Lions for their 2nd rounder, #33, and their 2010 1st round pick. With the Lions such a work-in-progress, we can expect to have at least one pick within the top 10 next year (unless Schwartz is a miracle worker), and with that we can hopefully pick up either Eric Berry from Tennessee, or Taylor Mays from USC. We use #33 on Max Unger, and then Smith/Kubiak work their magic and pick up a couple of quality players in the later rounds.

Then in 2010, :trophy:.

Texecutioner
03-09-2009, 02:03 PM
I agree with Hou-Tex in this discussion. We have some decent guys who could start, but they aren't anything to feel great about other than Demeco. There are a few teams in this league that pretty much always have good defenses like the Ravens, Bears, Steelers, and the Bucs. All of those teams have had very good LB's consistently that have made a huge difference. If we could at least one more solid LB to go on the side of Demeco that could help rush the passer than it would help a lot. I've got no problem with us taking a LB in the first if we're getting the best player available with specific pick in the first. No problem at all.

Old School
03-09-2009, 02:16 PM
I didn't get to watch all the games last year but the ones I did I was tired of constantly watching our LB corp tackling people 4 or 5 yards downfield. I don't know if it was the scheme or talent but I want a LB that will shed a block and crush the RB AT the LOS. having said that, I wouldn't complain if they went after a safety. We helped ourselves in FA on the DL now it is time to get the rest of it in better shape.
The argument about a RB being found later in the draft cheap seems to be pretty acurate. We don't NEED a feature back, just a complimentary one and that shouldn't be too hard to find later on. I wouldn't consider one at this point in the first 2 rounds. Too many needs in the defense.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 02:17 PM
I agree with Hou-Tex in this discussion. We have some decent guys who could start, but they aren't anything to feel great about other than Demeco. There are a few teams in this league that pretty much always have good defenses like the Ravens, Bears, Steelers, and the Bucs. All of those teams have had very good LB's consistently that have made a huge difference. If we could at least one more solid LB to go on the side of Demeco that could help rush the passer than it would help a lot. I've got no problem with us taking a LB in the first if we're getting the best player available with specific pick in the first. No problem at all.



How much did Bart Scott show as a rookie- he certainly isn't more talented than Adibi. What about Foote, Farrior, Woodley, L Briggs... I don't believe any of those guys, other than perhaps Woodley, has more athleticism or a better college career than Adibi. If a team is drafting a rookie in the first round it is saying that the depth is insufficient and/or the player is more talented and more likely to succeed than what is on the roster. Why would their be a belief that Cushing is going to be a better WLB than Adibi? wouldn't both guys be talented players with some question marks? And, with the good depth we have, why is it a neccessary pick?

nero THE zero
03-09-2009, 02:20 PM
How much did Bart Scott show as a rookie- he certainly isn't more talented than Adibi. What about Foote, Farrior, Woodley, L Briggs... I don't believe any of those guys, other than perhaps Woodley, has more athleticism or a better college career than Adibi. If a team is drafting a rookie in the first round it is saying that the depth is insufficient and/or the player is more talented and more likely to succeed than what is on the roster. Why would their be a belief that Cushing is going to be a better WLB than Adibi? wouldn't both guys be talented players with some question marks? And, with the good depth we have, why is it a neccessary pick?

Adibi is like 220 lbs, had a tough time getting on the field, and then had a tough time staying on when he got on.

He showed some good speed, especially in his first game against the Colts. But it would be foolish to pass on a LB who you feel could be a true playmaker because of the one good game Adibi had.

Specnatz
03-09-2009, 02:20 PM
How much did Bart Scott show as a rookie- he certainly isn't more talented than Adibi. What about Foote, Farrior, Woodley, L Briggs... I don't believe any of those guys, other than perhaps Woodley, has more athleticism or a better college career than Adibi. If a team is drafting a rookie in the first round it is saying that the depth is insufficient and/or the player is more talented and more likely to succeed than what is on the roster. Why would their be a belief that Cushing is going to be a better WLB than Adibi? wouldn't both guys be talented players with some question marks? And, with the good depth we have, why is it a neccessary pick?

So who would you take at 15 (NO Trading)??

El Tejano
03-09-2009, 02:24 PM
I know. Doesn't everyone know that Jordan Scott is the guy we are going for. J/K. I don't want everyone to start calling me a troll.

Seriously though. I think you look at LB because you got to look at who would make the biggest impact for your team and is the best player. If you go back and look at what our team was like before Xavier Adibi played, we were pretty lethargic. Then, Adibi comes in with awesome game speed and we are a team with a decent defense and going on 4 game win streaks. Adibi gets hurt and the only thing you have to back him up with is Morlon Greenwood, and our defense gets whooped by Oakland.

After Adibi, what do we really have? To ask a better question - Is Adibi not going to get ill again or hurt this season?

Goldensilence
03-09-2009, 02:25 PM
I think the big thing is the speed, or lack of by Diles IMO. He just doesn't have the elite sideline to sideline speed I'd like to see in our LBers. Ryans is a shoe in and I think Adibi can become very good. First year and had no injury concerns in college that I can think of off the top of my head. REst of the guys I don't have a problem with. Great depth.

Very likely BJ Raji won't be there and unless you're good on taking Jerry a bit early i'm okay with the pick. Just is a complete bummer that 3 first rounders o nthe DL and only one, MW, has lived up the billing. I think the way Kollar has his line play will help a lot. I've said before TJ and Amobi aren't stand up tackles, they need to be disrupting gaps and getting into the backfield rather then tying up blockers.

I think a lot of people here are down on Moore but I think this past year wasn't really indicative of what he's capable of. I'd like to see his pro day workout. Realistically guy is probably going to be there in the second. Kubiak seems high on starting Wilson and Barber though.

Reeves and Dunta probably look to be the starters coming into TC this year. I don't know why by Bennett got in Smith or Hoke's doghouse last year after a solid rookie campaign. Not real sure what we got in Molden except a good STer. Hoping we stop the trend of small school prospects in the third. Jenkins is the only CB i'm ok with taking at 15 unfortunately I think his numbers and his draft status are going to rebound after his pro day. IMO by the time the draft rolls around the FO needs to have a feel on whether they intend to ink Dunta long term or not.

Couldn't agree more on our interior line but, who do you justify taking @15? Robinson looked sure fire during the college season to crack top 20. Not so sure now. Unger and Mack are good but 15 good? Would be great with any of those 3 on a trade down.

Maclin or Moreno might be possibilities. Maclin in goodbye Jones and you probably got a guy that's hard to keep off the field. Slaton is the #1 but man...how much better does this offense look if you have two backs rotating in and out that can kill you. I know it looked pretty damn good in Carolina last year. Tack that on with no one else really behind him and it might be a great value pick.

All things considered though we can run with the same OL for the most part, QB, Wrs 1-3, TEs, DEs,CB(for this year at least), and got a starting RB. I think we could run with our LB corps but I think best value for #15, BARRING A TRADE BACK, is a LB.

Again just my 2 cents.

Texecutioner
03-09-2009, 02:34 PM
How much did Bart Scott show as a rookie- he certainly isn't more talented than Adibi. What about Foote, Farrior, Woodley, L Briggs... I don't believe any of those guys, other than perhaps Woodley, has more athleticism or a better college career than Adibi. If a team is drafting a rookie in the first round it is saying that the depth is insufficient and/or the player is more talented and more likely to succeed than what is on the roster. Why would their be a belief that Cushing is going to be a better WLB than Adibi? wouldn't both guys be talented players with some question marks? And, with the good depth we have, why is it a neccessary pick?

You're never drafting any rookie with the hopes that he will be the guy to take your offense or defense to the top in his first season. You're drafting him to help you out in that first season and hope that he'll continue to improve year after year. You can't sit here and automatically say that no rookie LB in this draft that we could get wouldn't be better than Adibe or Diles. It's not like either one of those guys were pro bowlers. Both of them were good for depth and possible starters. Nothing guaranteeing them anything though.

If we could get a very good LB in the first round to pair with Demeco for many many years, I would have no problem with that at all. Having two very good LB's does a lot for any team. I want a great combo like Farrior/Porter or Farrior/Harrison or Lewis/Suggs or Urlacher/Briggs. Those LB's have been corner stones of great defenses year in and year out. That is something any good defense needs.

If Maleuaga is there at 15 I'd take him in a second. If Cushing is there I'd take him as well, although the steroid rumors do bother me a bit.

Ole Miss Texan
03-09-2009, 02:34 PM
Offensively, I'd look at Michael Oher if he slips or Jeremy Maclin if he's available.

Defensively, I think the BPA is going to come down to Peria Jerry or Brian Cushing. I wonder how they'll rate Vontae Davis and Alphonso Smith though. Could get a talented DE/OLB at this spot but I have no idea how to project them.

Polo
03-09-2009, 02:44 PM
How much did Bart Scott show as a rookie- he certainly isn't more talented than Adibi. What about Foote, Farrior, Woodley, L Briggs... I don't believe any of those guys, other than perhaps Woodley, has more athleticism or a better college career than Adibi. If a team is drafting a rookie in the first round it is saying that the depth is insufficient and/or the player is more talented and more likely to succeed than what is on the roster. Why would their be a belief that Cushing is going to be a better WLB than Adibi? wouldn't both guys be talented players with some question marks? And, with the good depth we have, why is it a neccessary pick?

I agree.

Saying the Texans have a bunch of question marks at linebacker is not giving credit to the rest of the defense. I feel more secure about our LB corps minus Greenwood than I do about the secondary.

The Pencil Neck
03-09-2009, 02:47 PM
There are a lot of different ways we can go in the draft.

Personally, I think Diles played well but I think we can upgrade that position. I think Adibi showed some flashes that he could be really good, but he's got to stay healthy. Bentley is a quality backup. So the only guy I'm really comfy with in our LB corp is Demeco. I would love to see us upgrade our LB corp.

But we could easily go some other way. We can take the position that the Diles/Bentley combo is good enough at the SAM and then just go for LB depth later in the draft that may develop into starters later.

It all comes down to why we sucked so hard and what sucked worst? What position or positions are going to improve our defense most? LB, S, DT, CB, DE? I think upgrading the LB can have the biggest impact both against the run and the pass. After that, maybe the DT but it depends on what Bush thinks he can get from TJ, Amobi, and Okam and how he wants to use them. Maybe safety after that although the coaches seem to be sold on Barber and Wilson.

kiwitexansfan
03-09-2009, 02:53 PM
I'm not either.

I'm clamouring for Inside OL and Safety help.

I'd be happy to get Unger in a trade down not sure about value at 15.

GP
03-09-2009, 02:59 PM
Most are saying LB because with the projections on where players are going to be drafted who else would be worthy of taking at 15, since you can't predict trades?

Couldn't have said it any better.

With what players will be left at the 15th pick, a lot of us are thinking that there will be a some truly "Round 1 talent" at LB.

I'm not anywhere near being sold on the DEs in this draft, at least not at pick 15. Not too crazy about the DBs, either.

LB looks like a position that is pretty deep this year in terms of getting a playmaker at the LB spot. Plus, a lot of the teams ahead of us are going to go QB, RB, WR, and OL due to the nature of the position those teams are in.

If Howard-Bey is there, though, I would say Howard-Bey all the way. That guy looks like Andre Johnson to me with how his body handles the routes, his hands and how he looks the ball into his hands, and his concentration through the whole play. But I bet he goes early.

GP
03-09-2009, 03:01 PM
Plus, I don't like the way Diles hurt his leg.

I know he could come back and not have any problems. But the way it was injured, in a seemingly uncharacteristic way, has me skiddish.

Then there's DeMeco who is revving up the contract comments he's recently made.

LB, this year, might be the smart way to go.

Texecutioner
03-09-2009, 03:02 PM
Couldn't have said it any better.

With what players will be left at the 15th pick, a lot of us are thinking that there will be a some truly "Round 1 talent" at LB.

I'm not anywhere near being sold on the DEs in this draft, at least not at pick 15. Not too crazy about the DBs, either.

LB looks like a position that is pretty deep this year in terms of getting a playmaker at the LB spot. Plus, a lot of the teams ahead of us are going to go QB, RB, WR, and OL due to the nature of the position those teams are in.

If Howard-Bey is there, though, I would say Howard-Bey all the way. That guy looks like Andre Johnson to me with how his body handles the routes, his hands and how he looks the ball into his hands, and his concentration through the whole play. But I bet he goes early.


I think WR would be the worst way to go. It is our absolute least need. Plus, we'd have to pay a hefty price for a WR with the 15th pick. Walter is fine and good for at least one more season and possibly two.

I agree with you on everything else for the most part though.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 03:07 PM
So who would you take at 15 (NO Trading)??

BPA! (other than QB): that would include someone like:

Michael Oher
Michael Jenkins
Vontae Davis
J. Maclin
Everette Brown
Unger
Chris Wells
Moreno

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 03:10 PM
I think WR would be the worst way to go. It is our absolute least need. Plus, we'd have to pay a hefty price for a WR with the 15th pick. Walter is fine and good for at least one more season and possibly two.

I agree with you on everything else for the most part though.

It wouldn't look so bad if AJ blew out his knee in the preseason. Things happen. It's a new era for the Texans. We aren't drafting to fill a competant need anymore. Now, IMO, the draft becomes about the future- which is unknown. The year before the NYGiants went to the superbowl, they had J. Tuck, Osi Umenyior, and Michael Strahan on the team. So, with their first round pick they took Matteus Kiwanuka.

HOU-TEX
03-09-2009, 03:11 PM
Re: Why is everyone calling for a LB?

After reading posts in this thread, I think we can ask the same question to the people calling for Oline. I do understand that G and C need to be addressed eventually, but on the first day? I don't think so.

IMO, every position on defense could use an upgrade and I think the strongest positions in the middle of the 1st round are LB, DB and possibly DT.

Offense: ranked #3 overall, ranked #4 in passing, ranked 13th in rushing. Other than having the same Oline working together again, I think another decent RB could give another little boost to our running game.

Defense: ranked #22 overall, ranked 17th in passing, ranked 23rd against the rush. Are we going to put the entire blame on Smith? I'm not. He was surely a large part of the problem, but not all of it.


My .02

Mr teX
03-09-2009, 03:17 PM
b/c it's looking more & more obvious that no matter what we do as far as moving up, down or staying put, there's going to be a stud Lb there for us. All the other need positions on defense, not so much. Plus, it's not like we're set there for years to come anyway. As much potential as our young Lb corps showed last year, outside of Meco, there are questions of health concerning Diles & Adibi.

We need to stay at 15 & go BPA on defense...unless a rare talent on offense like Crabtree or Smith slip to us....then it'll get tricky.

Ole Miss Texan
03-09-2009, 03:23 PM
I understand the notion of no offense at all. Generally I'd agree becaus I want us to build a stellar defense, that side has a lot of holes, and Kubiak (being the offensive minded coach that he is) can get more out of less from offensive players.

With that said, you can look at what some teams have done around the league the last couple years. The Colts (aren't they a pretty good passing team?) chose Anthony Gonzales late in the 1st when they had Wayne and Harrison. The Saints took Robert Meachem in the 1st round after being one of the top offensive teams in the league. The Steeler and Cowboys took 1st round RBs when they already had good RBs on their team, the Giants continuing to get good DL prospects, etc.

One theory in building a team is to build a super unit. Instead of filling the biggest need you have, build the strongest unit you can forcing other teams to gameplan against it. IE- build the DL up so strong and deep that the other teams' OL has to see it the entire game at full force, that can mask other deficiencies you have on the defense. Control what the other team does by forcing them to have extra people blocking.

We could see that this year at #15. Do we go the DL route again? Or does Kubiak try and find another playmaker on offense. So what if we're #3 on offense... why not continue to build that unit up stronger and make it nearly unstoppable.

The arguement, "We're not going to outscore Manning and the Colts" isn't just there because they got lucky. That could be the Texans in the near future. Pick up a guy like Maclin and continue to run 3 WR sets add in Slaton and Daniels and thats hard to stop.

We could be hearing "We're not going to outscore Schaub and the Texans" a lot from other teams. Just saying that's one philosophy.

Texanmike02
03-09-2009, 03:27 PM
One of the biggest problems with our defense is that we can't control blockers. I think you have to come out of this draft with a Haynesworth type player or a MLB who is better able to shed blockers and get to the point of attack. For all Ryans does well, he is below average in persuit with a blocker in front of him. I think you're either looking at a MLB or a DT to make this defense go. Either way, you want MLB or DT AND a SS or CB out of the first three rounds. You do that and you change the face of this defense almost over night.

Mike

Texan in Japan
03-09-2009, 03:49 PM
Great thread DM...a lot of good ideas and discussion...my 2 cents...

I think this is the deepest draft for quality LBs we had in a while. Besides Curry and USC 3, there is Laurinatis (sp), Stinum (sp), plus the tweeners Maybin, Brown and Orakpo. There may be another 1-2 I missed.

I agree we need more quality OL and S, but we also need impact players at LB. I'm not sold that Adibi or Diles can be an impact player.

However, I'm for taking the best deal we can get and moving back. If we could get Det's (#20), 3rd and 6th for our 1st and 3rd. That would give us a lot of leverage for further trades going into Day 2.

I like Unger and Mack, but also like Laurinatis...he's fallen off the scope, but has had a much better career than Matthews or Cushing. I also believe that a later round C/G pick may do just fine w/ our OL coaches.

eriadoc
03-09-2009, 03:56 PM
Adibi was a 225 lb. LB. I want a bit more bulk from the LB corps. IMO, the MLB can be a bit undersized, but I want the outside guys to be big and fast. 225 lbs. is for the SS.

Polo
03-09-2009, 03:59 PM
I'm pretty confident that Adibi will be the starter next year.

HOU-TEX
03-09-2009, 04:17 PM
I'm pretty confident that Adibi will be the starter next year.

I think most can agree with that.......but for how long? Can he remain healthy? Can Diles? Can Diles get get quicker?

Are we willing to pass up a quality LB if he's there at 15 (with no trade back) with so many unanswered questions at the position? I think not

Polo
03-09-2009, 04:23 PM
I think most can agree with that.......but for how long? Can he remain healthy? Can Diles? Can Diles get get quicker?

Are we willing to pass up a quality LB if he's there at 15 (with no trade back) with so many unanswered questions at the position? I think not

I think that maybe we should have taken Patrick Willis we we had the chance.


I don't see any of those kind of guys available where we should be picking, so I dunno. I'd much rather see a top rated corner at this point though...With D-Robs future past this season in the air, plus the lot of them already being unreliable I can't see us not adressing that position early.

3rdcoastcards
03-09-2009, 04:25 PM
We need OLBs because Diles had all of 8 starts and Adibi only played in 6 games...so we don't have much to go on as far as their bodies of work. In addition, Ryans is "only" 250 (but plays small)...Diles is 240...and Adibi is 224. With our smallish DTs (TJ is 303 and Okoye is 302) we don't have a big run stopper/space eater to keep the OL off of our LBs...which means they cant use their quickness to get to plays. It also explains why we need a run-stopping DT like BJ Raji (337 lbs), Ron Brace (334), Sammie Lee Hill (339), OR...get Frank Okam (342) going. Plus none of our OLBs are especially proficient at rushing the QB (Ryans has 6.5 career sacks...Diles 1...Adibi 0)...so a bigger OLB that's athletic and can rush the QB would help. I know that a lot of our def. problems were because of a non-aggressive style of play calling...but more athletic OLBs and a bigger DT would help...along with being more aggressive. Having said all that I don't necessarily like any of the OLB prospects at 15. I am the charter member of the Aaron Curry man-crush-fan club...but he wont be available. Mathews hasn't done it long enough...and Cushing's meteoric size gain scares the crap outta me.

Texecutioner
03-09-2009, 04:26 PM
It wouldn't look so bad if AJ blew out his knee in the preseason. Things happen. It's a new era for the Texans. We aren't drafting to fill a competant need anymore. Now, IMO, the draft becomes about the future- which is unknown. The year before the NYGiants went to the superbowl, they had J. Tuck, Osi Umenyior, and Michael Strahan on the team. So, with their first round pick they took Matteus Kiwanuka.

Well anyone of our players could go down. By using your rationalization I could say the same about Mario in which we would have absolutely no choice BUT to grab another DE in the first round or what if Shaub goes down for several games again? Then by that rationale, we might as well pick Stafford if he is there which wouldn't make any sense.



We are nowhere near being in the position where we can just AFFORD to draft whomever we want. I wish that were true. Lol!

We had a pretty good offense last season with the exception to the horrible red zone problems. The defense was the problem last season and teams were hanging a lot of points on us weekly. We have a lot of holes to fill right now and need to find a quality starter with our first pick for the defense. We still have a few problems in the secondary, even though this is a terrible draft for DB's and I wouldn't really want to use that first pick on the secondary, so to me that leaves us with the choice of grabbing a D lineman or a LB depending on who is there and how well we think they could help out this defense.

All we really NEED going into this season on offense is another RB to pair with Slaton. We have no choice but to address the defense.

badboy
03-09-2009, 04:29 PM
I didn't get to watch all the games last year but the ones I did I was tired of constantly watching our LB corp tackling people 4 or 5 yards downfield. I don't know if it was the scheme or talent but I want a LB that will shed a block and crush the RB AT the LOS. having said that, I wouldn't complain if they went after a safety. We helped ourselves in FA on the DL now it is time to get the rest of it in better shape.
The argument about a RB being found later in the draft cheap seems to be pretty acurate. We don't NEED a feature back, just a complimentary one and that shouldn't be too hard to find later on. I wouldn't consider one at this point in the first 2 rounds. Too many needs in the defense.Add a DT like Raji and the LB will not be tackling down field.

The Pencil Neck
03-09-2009, 04:33 PM
Add a DT like Raji and the LB will not be tackling down field.

So do we put together a deal to go up and get him? And if so, where does he have to drop to for us to make that decision.

Personally, I don't think he gets past the Packers although some have him falling further.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 04:39 PM
Well anyone of our players could go down. By using your rationalization I could say the same about Mario in which we would have absolutely no choice BUT to grab another DE in the first round or what if Shaub goes down for several games again? Then by that rationale, we might as well pick Stafford if he is there which wouldn't make any sense.



We are nowhere near being in the position where we can just AFFORD to draft whomever we want. I wish that were true. Lol!

We had a pretty good offense last season with the exception to the horrible red zone problems. The defense was the problem last season and teams were hanging a lot of points on us weekly. We have a lot of holes to fill right now and need to find a quality starter with our first pick for the defense. We still have a few problems in the secondary, even though this is a terrible draft for DB's and I wouldn't really want to use that first pick on the secondary, so to me that leaves us with the choice of grabbing a D lineman or a LB depending on who is there and how well we think they could help out this defense.

All we really NEED going into this season on offense is another RB to pair with Slaton. We have no choice but to address the defense.


Do you think we are a more talented offense than we are a defense? I don't. I think that our offense had stability, direction, and good coaching while our defense had none of that. More than personnel changes, the removal of Richard Smith will have a dramatic impact on the defense's productivity. I think Mario, Demeco, and Dunta are all probowl quality talents. I think that Okoye, A. Smith, Adibi, Diles, Bennett are all potentially quality NFL starters. We watched Okoye get 5 sacks in 6 games as a rookie and Bennett pick off 4INts as a rookie. Clearly those guys have the talent for NFL success. Diles was our best LB for many of those 8 games last season.

Meanwhile, on offense, we have very limited athletes like CMyers, Briesel, RMoats, D.Anderson all playing significant roles in a very productive offense. From the entire starting unit, ony AJ and Duane Brown were selected in the first round.

Specnatz
03-09-2009, 04:41 PM
It wouldn't look so bad if AJ blew out his knee in the preseason. Things happen. It's a new era for the Texans. We aren't drafting to fill a competant need anymore. Now, IMO, the draft becomes about the future- which is unknown. The year before the NYGiants went to the superbowl, they had J. Tuck, Osi Umenyior, and Michael Strahan on the team. So, with their first round pick they took Matteus Kiwanuka.

So with this logic should we draft Snachez if he is there?

Ole Miss Texan
03-09-2009, 04:41 PM
I think we can't afford to pass on whichever player they think will have the best pro career as a Texan. I don't care about college stats, how much playing time they've had, etc. How do they project onto THIS team and how are WE going to use them. Don't pass on a better player just to fill a hole. That's how you get a team full of mediocre talent.

The last thing I want us to do is reach for a guy and pass up better players. If we take a LB because he's the BPA that's great. Our team is FINALLY starting to have quality depth at various positions and I don't want that to stop. The more players you have at a position that are capable of giving you quality playing time, the better your team is. You can let the starters rest more throughout the game so they come back in full strength. You're not scared to pull them b/c you'll have a guy that goes in and won't get torched.

Ole Miss Texan
03-09-2009, 04:44 PM
So with this logic should we draft Snachez if he is there?

I know you were referring to what you quoted but Sanchez and Schaub won't be on the field together. An arguement for a RB or a WR is that you rotate them a lot more, use them together throughout the game/season. Obviously it's awful if your starting QB goes down (we know from experience) but you can have AJ and Maclin on the field together at the same time.

Sanchez would be sitting on the bench the whole time, other positions get to contribute on the field.

Hooston Texan
03-09-2009, 04:45 PM
What about Foote, Farrior, Woodley, L Briggs... I don't believe any of those guys, other than perhaps Woodley, has more athleticism or a better college career than Adibi.

Apropos of nothing, but James Farrior was a hugely successful college LB. He and Jamie Sharper were quite the tandem in UVA's mid-1990s heyday.

This is a good thread that, to me, animates the fact that our Texans are growing up before our eyes. We have no absolute must-must-draft positions (outside of depth at RB) that trump the BPA ideal. While it would be nice to improve our safeties, the value at 15 just isn't there. Same with DTs outside of Raji and DE's besides Orakpo/Brown. LB is just where the value is even though it is hard to get excited about any of them besides Curry.

Drafting BPA means that we can develop that player in practice without throwing him onto the field immediately as a starter like we've done with every other first round pick in our history. Since the signing price at #15 is fairly low compared to a top 10 pick, we can afford not to rush the player.

I like Diles and Adibi right now but haven't seen enough sustained from them to be certain that I'll like them for the next 3-4 years. If we need to go another directions, we'll need other options.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 04:51 PM
So with this logic should we draft Snachez if he is there?

Considering I specifically said, "with the exception of QB" in my post, that's a heck of an editing job you did there. There is never more than one QB on the field and they don't play ST, with the possible exception of field goal holder.

Meanwhile, the Texans will lineup with 4 WRs on the field at the same time quite often this year. Also, Wrs often play a very significant role in special teams- from returning kicks and punts to covering them. That's my answer to your ridiculous sarcastic retort without even getting into the uniqueness of the QB as the team leader. That would've been a clever debate tactic if you were 9 years old.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 04:55 PM
Apropos of nothing, but James Farrior was a hugely successful college LB. He and Jamie Sharper were quite the tandem in UVA's mid-1990s heyday.

This is a good thread that, to me, animates the fact that our Texans are growing up before our eyes. We have no absolute must-must-draft positions (outside of depth at RB) that trump the BPA ideal. While it would be nice to improve our safeties, the value at 15 just isn't there. Same with DTs outside of Raji and DE's besides Orakpo/Brown. LB is just where the value is even though it is hard to get excited about any of them besides Curry.

Drafting BPA means that we can develop that player in practice without throwing him onto the field immediately as a starter like we've done with every other first round pick in our history. Since the signing price at #15 is fairly low compared to a top 10 pick, we can afford not to rush the player.

I like Diles and Adibi right now but haven't seen enough sustained from them to be certain that I'll like them for the next 3-4 years. If we need to go another directions, we'll need other options.


I absolutely agree with you. If I sound like I'm betting the farm on Diles and Adibi being allpros then I've not communicated well. I'm just trying to illustrate that our LB corp right now has both talent and good depth. I understand that there are plenty of question marks regarding our OLBs, though Bentley's presence on the team really eases those concerns for me. I think we should come out of this draft with 1-2 LBs, I just don't see how our LB corp can be graded out as a higher priority than our secondary, our RBackfield, or our interior OLine.

TEXANRED
03-09-2009, 05:02 PM
I'm in general agreement with the boards and media that this team needs RB depth and help at safety. However, I don't get this almost universally held belief that it needs LB help- probably high in the draft.

I believe we have 6 LBs that belong on a winning team's 53 man roster:
DRyans- good to very good MLB
Bentley- primary backup LB- good enough to be primary backup on championship caliber team
Adibi- When he played, he looked very good. Health is a concern but I'd hardly call him Dan Morgan at this point. Has the potential to be an elite WLB.
Diles- The light went on for him in week 4. I think he's clearly a starting caliber OLB and the team expects him healthy for minicamp.
Chaun Thompson- Missing in action due to training camp injury. However, he doesn't have a history of injury problems and has the size and athleticism to rush the passer or play a traditional SLB. He's pretty young and had success as a player on a bad Cleveland team.
Coley- Excellent special teams player and a very sure tackler. He sure looked good in the preseason.

Though I agree that uncertainty exists regarding Adibi and Diles, I think the depth is very good as is the versatility and potential of the group. How can this be a greater need than our interior OLine? Myers and Briesel have low ceilings, Pitts will be a free agent, and White doesn't belong on a championship caliber team. Beyond that, Studdard is the primary backup and he's not athletic enought to caddy for Vince YOung, much less protect Matt Schuab. Am I the only person who saw the Cowboy preseason game last year when he imitated an overturned turtle for three quarters?

Someone explain to me why LB is such a major need for this team!- In other words, why is Adibi and Diles going to fail and why isn't Bentley, Coley, and Thompson quality depth?

Diles is not a starting caliber LB. Not at strong side. He is slow. He is a MLB playing out of position. There are a lot of Diles fans on this site so I know that is going to upset a few, however, he plays the run fine but is a liability in the passing game. That, and he was not much of a pass rushing threat either. Plus him coming off of a broken leg.

Adibi couldn't stay healthy. Not in OTA's, not in training camp, not during the pre-season, not during the regular season. I wouldn't feel good about going into the season depending on him.

Everyone else is a backup.

Cushing or Matthews is an instant upgrade. I am hoping for Matthews myself.

Texans_Chick
03-09-2009, 05:03 PM
I absolutely agree with you. If I sound like I'm betting the farm on Diles and Adibi being allpros then I've not communicated well. I'm just trying to illustrate that our LB corp right now has both talent and good depth. I understand that there are plenty of question marks regarding our OLBs, though Bentley's presence on the team really eases those concerns for me. I think we should come out of this draft with 1-2 LBs, I just don't see how our LB corp can be graded out as a higher priority than our secondary, our RBackfield, or our interior OLine.

Do you think the Texans outside linebackers are in the top quarter of the league?

The top half?

The top 3/4s?

Athleticism at the linebacker spot can really make a huge difference on your defense. It's a position that rookies can make an immediate impact. I do not like to rely on just changing around coaches and keeping the players and thinking that you will see a better result. Yes, coaching and scheme matters, but linebacker is NOT a position of depth or strength on this team. It is DeMeco Ryans and some career backups, a guy who can't keep weight on and a guy who broke his leg while running during practice. That doesn't give me confidence coming into the season.

The Texans can't get enough playmakers on defense. It's just a matter of identifying them.

Specnatz
03-09-2009, 05:08 PM
Considering I specifically said, "with the exception of QB" in my post, that's a heck of an editing job you did there. There is never more than one QB on the field and they don't play ST, with the possible exception of field goal holder.

Meanwhile, the Texans will lineup with 4 WRs on the field at the same time quite often this year. Also, Wrs often play a very significant role in special teams- from returning kicks and punts to covering them. That's my answer to your ridiculous sarcastic retort without even getting into the uniqueness of the QB as the team leader. That would've been a clever debate tactic if you were 9 years old.

I did not edit anything, I quoted you. Very rude to say I did.

I was being sarcastic because you just seem to forget all the woes we had on D. Why I am not sure. Also no one is saying not to address a WR or RB in the draft. It is just not the most pressing need for the team. Nor has anyone said to not look at OL, just at 16 the value is not there.

Texans_Chick
03-09-2009, 05:08 PM
I absolutely agree with you. If I sound like I'm betting the farm on Diles and Adibi being allpros then I've not communicated well. I'm just trying to illustrate that our LB corp right now has both talent and good depth. I understand that there are plenty of question marks regarding our OLBs, though Bentley's presence on the team really eases those concerns for me. I think we should come out of this draft with 1-2 LBs, I just don't see how our LB corp can be graded out as a higher priority than our secondary, our RBackfield, or our interior OLine.

Secondary-There may not be good value available at 15

RB-This isn't a great RB draft at the top of the draft. Do you really want to spend first round money on a guy who is going to be a complement to a third round back who will be making less money.

Interior OLine-I can see the case for an upgrade but if a great guy was available at 15, I'd prefer to get some other team to bite for a trade up. The Texans have been able to make do with their system on the Oline. The Texans have a clear system on offense and a coach who is proven to be able to coach up guys who haven't been drafted highly. The only plan that the Texans have so far on defense is to draft playmakers and hope they can make plays. Defense needs some help.

V3rm0nt3r
03-09-2009, 05:16 PM
great thread. before i say anything know that i'm not much of a BPA guy on the first day. second day i am a fan of value picks (like Adibi last year) but you need to fill needs first and foremost in the first round. and thats why i'm calling for Malcom Jenkins (if he's available at 15) Beanie Wells (if we insist on staying at 15 and Jenkins isn't available) Sean Smith (trade down) or Ron Brace (trade down and Smith isn't available).

Texecutioner
03-09-2009, 05:17 PM
Secondary-There may not be good value available at 15

RB-This isn't a great RB draft at the top of the draft. Do you really want to spend first round money on a guy who is going to be a complement to a third round back who will be making less money.

I terribly disagree here. I think Moreno is the best RB prospect to enter the draft since Adrian Peterson came out. Beanie Wells should for surely be a franchise RB that will be really good for many years. He would totally be the man to pair with Slaton more than anyone actually, but in no way do I want the Texans to draft a RB in the first round and I know that they won't any way.

The only plan that the Texans have so far on defense is to draft playmakers and hope they can make plays. Defense needs some help.

Agreed. We need play makers on the defensive side of the ball now. We are lacking there and really need to find some play makers.

Texecutioner
03-09-2009, 05:19 PM
So with this logic should we draft Snachez if he is there?

Same thing I was thinking.

We need to find some play makers on the defensive side of the ball in the first two rounds for sure.

GP
03-09-2009, 06:22 PM
This team has NOT been strong at linebacker. It's pretty much featured one guy (Sharper, and now Ryans) and like TC has said: career backups.

Throw in (a) injury issues and (b) possible contract issues with DeMeco, and introduce the potential to add a linebacker who has "Round 1" talent, and I am more than comfortable with taking a LB if he's a good one.

If DeMeco wants to continue his attitude, we've drafted a replacement LB. A lot of people were down on AJ Hawk, thinking the Packers sorta' wasted that pick. He has settled into that role nicely. He's not a bust.

As TC has said, I also do not like the DB prospects--At least not in terms of "Round 1 talent."

I actually hate drafting at 15. Are you getting a guy at value, someone who slid down (Amobi, for example) for some weird reason? Or are you reaching for a guy who was going to be there at the end of the round?

Picks 1-10 seem to produce players that you can identify as being a good selection. And then there's Charles Rogers.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 06:38 PM
Secondary-There may not be good value available at 15

RB-This isn't a great RB draft at the top of the draft. Do you really want to spend first round money on a guy who is going to be a complement to a third round back who will be making less money.

Interior OLine-I can see the case for an upgrade but if a great guy was available at 15, I'd prefer to get some other team to bite for a trade up. The Texans have been able to make do with their system on the Oline. The Texans have a clear system on offense and a coach who is proven to be able to coach up guys who haven't been drafted highly. The only plan that the Texans have so far on defense is to draft playmakers and hope they can make plays. Defense needs some help.



I would have some interest in Donald Brown, Moreno, or Wells in the first round... certainly more interest than I do Cushing or Matthews at the same spot.

Regarding the oline, you are using the assertion that we can do fine with lesser talent because of the "clear system and coach". My point is that our talent on defense may begin to show itself to be better than you expect now that we should have a "clear system" and better coaching on that side of the ball. Though difficult to compare, I'd feel pretty good arguing that our talent at LB is much better than our talent at C/G.

Regarding where our LBs relate to the rest of the league, I don't think I can know that yet. I think DRyans is clearly in the top 1/2 of the league as a starting LB. Though a fairly small sample, I think Diles proved to be a quality starter at the strong side. Based on Adibi's first season and his college career, I would rate Adibi ahead of Clay Matthews and Brian Cushing as a pro prospect. I think his ceiling is at least as high as those guys and he's already proven that he can play at that level when healthy. But, more to the point, Bentley and CThompson are very competant depth at the position and I think Coley is a luxury as an excellent ST player and a sixth LB.

It appears to me that even a reach for someone like Unger upgrades the talent level and depth of the team much more than Matthews or Cushing does. Certainly, Moreno at RB upgrades the team more. We can argue about whether Adibi can add weight and if Diles can be better than average. What can't be argued is that Slaton shouldn't be counted on for 400 carries and Ryan Moats has no business being his primary backup. I'd take Moreno if the team has him rated high and feed him the ball 200 times along with Slaton. Looking at the playoff teams from last season, many of them have multiple first day picks at HB and/or two guys with relatively high salaries:

Pittsburgh: Parker/Mendenhall
Tennessee: CJohnson/LWhite/CHenry (Tennessee was mocked for drafting CJohnson last year, if you remember, because he was the third first day RB in as many years. Everyone thought they should've taken someone like Limas Sweed instead. That's the kind of mistake that the good organizations don't make.
Miami- Ricky Williams/Ronnie Brown
Carolina- Deangelo Williams/Jonathan Stewart
Atlanta- Norwood/ Michael Turner
Minnesota- Chester Taylor/Adrian Peterson

I just don't see a problem with Slaton getting paid less than another guy he shares his carries with. If Slaton has another good season, the existance of another back on the team getting paid well will have little to do wtih his demand for another contract. He's going to demand one regardless and we'll be obliged to give it to him.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 06:47 PM
Same thing I was thinking.

We need to find some play makers on the defensive side of the ball in the first two rounds for sure.

We have plenty of athletes on defense and certainly have put money and picks on that side of the ball. I want our team to add talent to both sides of the ball. What I don't want to do is use the draft to pepper an area of weakness from the year before. Instead, I want to collect and develop talent across the board. When I look at our roster, RB, Safety, and OC/OG are the three glaring areas that lack any depth of talent.

If Adibi gets injured in week #2, then we have Dryans, Diles, and Bentley starting at LB. I believe we can win with those guys. If DRyans gets injured in week #4, I still think we can win with CThompson, Diles, and Bentley playing at LB.

However, if the offense loses CPitts and Briesel, do you think we can win games with CWhite, CMyers, and Studdard in the middle of our OLine? My God!, that's so disgusting to think about, I almost couldn't type it.

Or, if Slaton goes down injured, how do you feel about Ryan Moats and Cecil Sapp as our 1-2 punch at RB?

Or, if Eugene Wilson gets injured, do you feel good about Dominique Barber and Brandon Harrison as our starting safeties... By the way, we don't even have a 4th safety on the roster right now.

ArlingtonTexan
03-09-2009, 07:34 PM
Not convinced that everyone is calling for an OLB, but when looking at pick 15 in this draft I am not covinced that there is a "perfect" pick there for the Texans. Remember NFL team don't think BPA versus need, but really meld the two ideas in different shades of gray. There is a good argument to be made that the best combination on the board at 15 of talent and realistic need in at OLB. Not matter the position unless someone falls unexpectedly the pick will come under question from at least half of the fanbase. just setting up that way.

I would say the chatter amoung Texans fans have come from two places. Rick smith earlier in the off-season sayin that he likes the talent at OLB in the draft and "the General" repeating that the Texans will take an OLB in the draft over and over. Still, looking at the roster, given the FA signings and what's coming back, OLB is a need. While we have seen flashes of goodness from Adibi and diles, the idea the Texans maybe thinking about using a high draft choice on players who may have talent is actually a positive development.

Kaiser Toro
03-09-2009, 07:57 PM
Some of have already mentioned my observations of our current LB corps, but I will amplify them:

Diles - too slow sideline to sideline, and vertical speed is a question mark for him in a new pressure defense that will get up the field. A broken leg is not the best injury to come back from when speed is already an issue.

Adibi - I love his potential, love his speed. But I am not waiting on potential, draft another LB to really test his mettle.

Ryans - I feel he hasn't played up to his rookie year largely because of injury and the wear and tear of having no DT's keeping him clean. If we take a LB in the first or second I could see us making the tender next year that gives us only a 1st rounder in return.

Light DT's, banged up MLB and poor Safety play means a soft middle of the field. 8-8 here we come again, if we are lucky.

Thompson, Bentley, Coley, Diles and Adibi are all real nice back ups, even luxuries, but not take that to the bank starters for a playoff team. Adibi, however, could take it to that next level in my opinion, but have a feeling there is a mental disconnect somewhere.

If we do not draft a LB in the first four rounds I would be shocked.

I expect a LB, DE/DT, RB, CB/S and C/G to be selected with the first five picks, but in no particular order.

In summary, this team needs to get better players on defense and guys that want to be here. On offense we need guys who live in the end zone as we already know how to move it between the 20's. We must get stronger between the tackles and force our will on both sides of the ball.

GP
03-09-2009, 08:06 PM
We have plenty of athletes on defense and certainly have put money and picks on that side of the ball. I want our team to add talent to both sides of the ball. What I don't want to do is use the draft to pepper an area of weakness from the year before. Instead, I want to collect and develop talent across the board. When I look at our roster, RB, Safety, and OC/OG are the three glaring areas that lack any depth of talent.

If Adibi gets injured in week #2, then we have Dryans, Diles, and Bentley starting at LB. I believe we can win with those guys. If DRyans gets injured in week #4, I still think we can win with CThompson, Diles, and Bentley playing at LB.

However, if the offense loses CPitts and Briesel, do you think we can win games with CWhite, CMyers, and Studdard in the middle of our OLine? My God!, that's so disgusting to think about, I almost couldn't type it.

Or, if Slaton goes down injured, how do you feel about Ryan Moats and Cecil Sapp as our 1-2 punch at RB?

Or, if Eugene Wilson gets injured, do you feel good about Dominique Barber and Brandon Harrison as our starting safeties... By the way, we don't even have a 4th safety on the roster right now.

Dale:

This is where it comes off as you being married to your idea(s).

We know you don't think LB is as important of a need as it might appear to a large sector of the fans here. And that's OK.

We cannot ever predict the injuries that will happen, when they will occur, and to whom they will plague. Stuff happens. So we're not going to be able to have top-rate talent "two deep" at all 22 positions on the field. We're talking about Round 1...and there are 6 more rounds to grab that 4th safety that we need.

I think there's a pretty good chance that we might have the perfect crap storm if something happens to DeMeco (injury OR flying the nest at end of season) or to Diles or to Adibi, or to a couple of those guys. Heck, all three of those guys ARE playing injured to some degree: DeMeco's left shoulder, Diles' leg rehab, and whatever happens to grip Adibi on any particular day.

The draft is fluid. Things can change one or two picks ahead of us. Things could shift dramatically if the top 2 or 3 teams do the unexpected, and it alters the course of the rest of the round.

You make good points. So do others.

This sort of back and forth is what I amtalking about in my Pre-Draft Testosterone Wars thread. And I am not ragging on you, so please don't misjudge. I am merely saying that we are all on edge for the draft, and there'll be other similary-talked about issues all the way up until the kickoff of the regular season. Then we can gripe for the first 6 weeks as we try to figure out how Gary Kubiak managed to screw up the season again. LOL.

It. Has. Begun.

This is the Battle at Lexington thread of the Pre-Draft Testosterone Wars.

:hunter:

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 08:38 PM
Dale:

This is where it comes off as you being married to your idea(s).

We know you don't think LB is as important of a need as it might appear to a large sector of the fans here. And that's OK.

We cannot ever predict the injuries that will happen, when they will occur, and to whom they will plague. Stuff happens. So we're not going to be able to have top-rate talent "two deep" at all 22 positions on the field. We're talking about Round 1...and there are 6 more rounds to grab that 4th safety that we need.

I think there's a pretty good chance that we might have the perfect crap storm if something happens to DeMeco (injury OR flying the nest at end of season) or to Diles or to Adibi, or to a couple of those guys. Heck, all three of those guys ARE playing injured to some degree: DeMeco's left shoulder, Diles' leg rehab, and whatever happens to grip Adibi on any particular day.

The draft is fluid. Things can change one or two picks ahead of us. Things could shift dramatically if the top 2 or 3 teams do the unexpected, and it alters the course of the rest of the round.

You make good points. So do others.

This sort of back and forth is what I amtalking about in my Pre-Draft Testosterone Wars thread. And I am not ragging on you, so please don't misjudge. I am merely saying that we are all on edge for the draft, and there'll be other similary-talked about issues all the way up until the kickoff of the regular season. Then we can gripe for the first 6 weeks as we try to figure out how Gary Kubiak managed to screw up the season again. LOL.

It. Has. Begun.

This is the Battle at Lexington thread of the Pre-Draft Testosterone Wars.

:hunter:



I wouldn't be opposed to a LB going in the first round, it just better be because he's the highest rated player on the board and not because we need a LB. I had no problem with reaching a bit, arguably, for Brown last year because we did have a glaring need at LT and they just aren't available in free agency.

I'd like to come out of this draft with 1-2 lbs. I just don't see how anyone can have LB as anything more than our 4th priority, at this point.

Ole Miss Texan
03-09-2009, 08:38 PM
Let's look at this realistically. What players would be worthy/value at the 15th pick?

QB- Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman?
RB- Brown, Moreno, Wells, McCoy?
TE- Pettigrew?
WR- Maclin, Crabtree, Harvin, DHB, Hicks?
FB-None
LT- Oher, Monroe, Smith,Smith, Britton, Beatty?
OG- None
C- None
DE- Orakpo, Brown, Maybin, Johnson, Jackson, English, Ayers?
DT- Raji, Jerry
LB- Curry, Cushing, Maualuga, Matthews, Laurinaitis?
CB- Jenkins, Davis, Smith?
S- None

If you look at it by position and who "could" get selected in the mid first... cross of who you think will get taken top 10, etc. It's easier to try and figure what players/positions will be available. Then see where those match up with our needs. Then compare the most talented to those that are next best on our needs list.

Lucky
03-09-2009, 08:42 PM
I'm sorry to disagree with the sunshine squad (again), but there are still needs on this team. A pass rusher is a very definite need. A playmaker at safety is a need. Depth on the offensive line is a need. A complementary back to Slaton is a need. And yeah, linebacker is a need.

Probably too many needs to fill in one draft, which is why I hope the Texans aren't finished in free agency. The Texans don't have to force a pick in the 1st round because they have so many needs to choose from.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 08:45 PM
Let's look at this realistically. What players would be worthy/value at the 15th pick?

QB- Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman?
RB- Brown, Moreno, Wells, McCoy?
TE- Pettigrew?
WR- Maclin, Crabtree[/I], Harvin, DHB, Hicks?
FB-None
LT- Oher, Monroe, Smith,Smith, Britton, Beatty?
OG- None
C- None UNGER!
DE- Orakpo, Brown, Maybin, Johnson, Jackson, English, Ayers?
DT- Raji, Jerry
LB- [I]Curry, Cushing, Maualuga, Matthews, Laurinaitis?
CB- Jenkins, Davis, Smith?
S- None

If you look at it by position and who "could" get selected in the mid first... cross of who you think will get taken top 10, etc. It's easier to try and figure what players/positions will be available. Then see where those match up with our needs. Then compare the most talented to those that are next best on our needs list.

In bold are players I'd consider taking at #15. In italics are players that will most likely be gone. As far as OTs go, If we had a guy we considered elite slip to us, I'd take him and consider an eventual transition to guard for Winston.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 08:55 PM
I'm sorry to disagree with the sunshine squad (again), but there are still needs on this team. A pass rusher is a very definite need. A playmaker at safety is a need. Depth on the offensive line is a need. A complementary back to Slaton is a need. And yeah, linebacker is a need.

Probably too many needs to fill in one draft, which is why I hope the Texans aren't finished in free agency. The Texans don't have to force a pick in the 1st round because they have so many needs to choose from.

If we successfully filled every need to your satisfaction, we'd rate somewhere between the '92 Cowboys and '75 Steelers.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 09:03 PM
Needs in order of priority:

1. safety- a 6th rounder that played well on special teams is the defacto starting SS and our only backup is Brandon "I just got my nails done" Harrison.

2.RB- Ryan Moats, Chris Brown, and Cecil Sapp are the only backs other than Slaton on the roster. One has a bad back, one is a FB, and the other is just not any good.

3. C/G- We have two moderately talented journeyman types starting at C and RG... Then, our primary backup guard needs a spotter just to tie his own shoe (Studdard!)

4. Take your pick: DE, DT, LB, CB

I don't know how anyone can even dispute that LB is no higher than 4th. That being said, I do understand that the 4th priority could still get addressed in the first round, depending on how the talent falls and where we end up.

Kaiser Toro
03-09-2009, 09:04 PM
If we successfully filled every need to your satisfaction, we'd rate somewhere between the '92 Cowboys and '75 Steelers.

That is the goal.

TimeKiller
03-09-2009, 09:36 PM
Needs in order of priority:

1. safety- a 6th rounder that played well on special teams is the defacto starting SS and our only backup is Brandon "I just got my nails done" Harrison.

2.RB- Ryan Moats, Chris Brown, and Cecil Sapp are the only backs other than Slaton on the roster. One has a bad back, one is a FB, and the other is just not any good.

3. C/G- We have two moderately talented journeyman types starting at C and RG... Then, our primary backup guard needs a spotter just to tie his own shoe (Studdard!)

4. Take your pick: DE, DT, LB, CB

I don't know how anyone can even dispute that LB is no higher than 4th. That being said, I do understand that the 4th priority could still get addressed in the first round, depending on how the talent falls and where we end up.

Safety is totally #1 need, I don't think many would disagree. This draft barely gets a safety mentioned anywhere in the first round so that's out. Same for DT and DE unless somebody falls unexpectedly.

Backup RB is a need, not 2nd. We need a guy who can come in and be a solid 3 or 4 yards in between Slaton-time. Honestly, a 4-7 round guy will be fine for now, preferably a grinder.

Interior O-Line help would be great but certainly doesn't rank ahead of the Interior D-line need. Probably about even IMO.

CB or LB really is left defensively (where the most help is needed). What sucks about this draft is the gap between top 12ish/15ish players and the rest of the draft. Seems like a weak class, pretty much every position we pick for is reaching a bit. May as well fill a need, you know?

Big Lou
03-09-2009, 09:55 PM
Trade back, and then BDPA.

We need Defense, with this draft I think you can find a starter in round one and two. Trade back, and try to get another second or high third.

I'm not against LB's, but he better end up bieng a day one starter that is a freaking stud at the Pro Level, and can get after the QB when needed.Our LB's our undersized for a Defense Line that is about penetration. The LB's our going to need to be able to mop up when the RB's get past the first level. The LB's are going to take a beating through out the year so it's not bad having depth.

It's just too bad there isn't a 1st round kick ass Safety. Who knows maybe there is an under rated Safety in the draft like Demeco was underated at LB.

The Pencil Neck
03-09-2009, 10:23 PM
I'm sorry to disagree with the sunshine squad (again), but there are still needs on this team. A pass rusher is a very definite need. A playmaker at safety is a need. Depth on the offensive line is a need. A complementary back to Slaton is a need. And yeah, linebacker is a need.

Probably too many needs to fill in one draft, which is why I hope the Texans aren't finished in free agency. The Texans don't have to force a pick in the 1st round because they have so many needs to choose from.


But most of what you're saying we need aren't things that normally come from the first round of the draft. We'd have to be absolutely STOCKED at all positions before I'd be happy drafting someone for depth on the O-Line or as a complimentary running back.

I don't think there is a real playmaking safety in this draft except for maybe Jenkins and do you really want to spend a first on a guy that you're going to take a chance on by changing his position?

So that leaves a pass rusher or a linebacker. That means someone that a lot of the people on this board are going to consider a reach or a risk.

Big Lou
03-09-2009, 10:28 PM
LB's not a lock.

Due to the Defensive needs it all depends on who falls, because it happens every year.

If a DE, DT, or CB falls to 15 I think they'll take them. If there is LB there they really like they'll take'm. Also if no one wants to trade up, then that's a big factor as well.

Before everyone gets up in arms about the Texans strategy we'll have to see what happens from the Lions to the Saints before we'll know what they're gonna do.

On second thought we do need some fodder until late April!!!!!!!:wild:

The Pencil Neck
03-09-2009, 10:30 PM
Needs in order of priority:

1. safety- a 6th rounder that played well on special teams is the defacto starting SS and our only backup is Brandon "I just got my nails done" Harrison.

2.RB- Ryan Moats, Chris Brown, and Cecil Sapp are the only backs other than Slaton on the roster. One has a bad back, one is a FB, and the other is just not any good.

3. C/G- We have two moderately talented journeyman types starting at C and RG... Then, our primary backup guard needs a spotter just to tie his own shoe (Studdard!)

4. Take your pick: DE, DT, LB, CB

I don't know how anyone can even dispute that LB is no higher than 4th. That being said, I do understand that the 4th priority could still get addressed in the first round, depending on how the talent falls and where we end up.

We have one of the worst defenses in the league and you think we have no real needs on that side of the ball outside of a safety? I don't see how you can argue that.

Sure, the needs on the offensive side of the ball are painfully obvious. But they are needs that can be filled, and probably filled quite well, later in the draft. And obviously, I consider LB a much higher need because I have no faith that any of these guys other than Demeco is ever going to see the field again. And we've seen that when Adibi played how much better our defense looked. If we improve our LB's, it could translate into a huge improvement in all phases of our defense.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 10:30 PM
But most of what you're saying we need aren't things that normally come from the first round of the draft. We'd have to be absolutely STOCKED at all positions before I'd be happy drafting someone for depth on the O-Line or as a complimentary running back.

I don't think there is a real playmaking safety in this draft except for maybe Jenkins and do you really want to spend a first on a guy that you're going to take a chance on by changing his position?

So that leaves a pass rusher or a linebacker. That means someone that a lot of the people on this board are going to consider a reach or a risk.

Drafting Oline wouldn't be just depth since Myers and Briesel are very limited athletes. They'd be competition and potential upgrades.

As for RB, considering that even if Slaton is healthy for 16 games, we still need someone else to touch the ball 200 times from the backfield. I think a player that involved is worthy of a first round pick. Look around the league!!

By the way, other than A.Curry, there are no LBs likely to get drafted in the first round who have proven to be successful 3 down backers. Cushing, Matthews, Laurinitis, Maliluga... all have some questions. And, if we get a pure pass rusher like Maybin, Johnson, Orakpo, Brown... those guys won't be 3 down DEs either.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 10:37 PM
We have one of the worst defenses in the league and you think we have no real needs on that side of the ball outside of a safety? I don't see how you can argue that.

Sure, the needs on the offensive side of the ball are painfully obvious. But they are needs that can be filled, and probably filled quite well, later in the draft. And obviously, I consider LB a much higher need because I have no faith that any of these guys other than Demeco is ever going to see the field again. And we've seen that when Adibi played how much better our defense looked. If we improve our LB's, it could translate into a huge improvement in all phases of our defense.

What is your problem with Bentley? By the way, the LB class is very deep this year. Why can't LB be filled later in the draft. Why won't Adibi and Diles see the field again. According to the coaching staff, Adibi is healthy and Diles will be 100% for minicamp. I think we could use a lot of things of defense. I'd like a speed rushing DE. I'd like a run stuffing DT. I'd like a playmaking safety and a team can always get better at CB. I don't think we are maxed out with talent on any position on defense. I just fail to see how LB is more glaring a need than some others. While Adibi is a wild card as to what kind of player he'll be, I'm very comfortable with our depth at LB. Simply put, if Adibi misses the entire season, I think we can still have a good defense with Bentley starting in his place. How am I wrong about that? On the other hand, if Eugene Wilson gets injured, what the heck do we do at safety? If Pitts goes down and Studdard trots onto the field, our season is over!!

Lucky
03-09-2009, 10:44 PM
So that leaves a pass rusher or a linebacker. That means someone that a lot of the people on this board are going to consider a reach or a risk.
This is a weak draft, as far as 1st round talent is concerned. A lot of teams will be "reaching". I would be more concerned if the Texans had a top 10 pick, and had to find a player who could live up to the contract.

If available, I would have no problem with the Texans selecting Malcolm Jenkins. And there should be plenty of pass rushers, linebackers, or even pass rushing linebackers available when the Texans select at #15. I'm not a big fan of Andre Smith as a LT, but he could be a dominant guard in this system. I mean, does anyone believe the Texans will go injury free on the offensive line for a second straight season? Kubiak and Smith should have little problem filling a need with value, relative to this class.

Specnatz
03-09-2009, 11:29 PM
I'm sorry to disagree with the sunshine squad (again), but there are still needs on this team. A pass rusher is a very definite need. A playmaker at safety is a need. Depth on the offensive line is a need. A complementary back to Slaton is a need. And yeah, linebacker is a need.

Probably too many needs to fill in one draft, which is why I hope the Texans aren't finished in free agency. The Texans don't have to force a pick in the 1st round because they have so many needs to choose from.

Who is this sunshine squad? If you had seen my mock you would see that I notice these areas.

Dale was talking about round one. Geez!!!!!!

Kaiser Toro
03-09-2009, 11:36 PM
Dale was talking about round one. Geez!!!!!!

Spec, easy with the sextuple exclamation of Geez, the member's inital post in this thread is not talking about round one. :)

I'm in general agreement with the boards and media that this team needs RB depth and help at safety. However, I don't get this almost universally held belief that it needs LB help- probably high in the draft.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 11:37 PM
Who is this sunshine squad? If you had seen my mock you would see that I notice these areas.

Dale was talking about round one. Geez!!!!!!

I know... I happen to like the depth at LB while being very worried about RB, OL, and safety and that somehow makes me a shiny, happy fan.

I don't think you can find a fan more concerned with the center and guard position on this team nor anyone screaming that we need at least 2 more quality RBs on the roster.

What happened to all those guys with pink soap? If Richard Smith was so bad, as many thought, doesn't that assertion by definition mean that he was getting much less out of the talent on the defense than was available. Now that he's been replaced, the idea that much of the defense's problems were his is silly homerism. It seems that a lot of fans simply choose to take a pessimistic position until success hits them in the face.

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 11:39 PM
Spec, easy with the sextuple exclamation of Geez, the member's inital post in this thread is not talking about round one. :)

What I'm saying is that the LB position shouldn't be seen as anything more than the 4th priority for the draft, after:

RB, Safety, and interior OL.... that doesn't mean that we shouldn't take a LB in the first if he's the BPA. By the same token though, I'd say that about WR, RB, and CB.

Big Lou
03-09-2009, 11:50 PM
I know... I happen to like the depth at LB while being very worried about RB, OL, and safety and that somehow makes me a shiny, happy fan.

I don't think you can find a fan more concerned with the center and guard position on this team nor anyone screaming that we need at least 2 more quality RBs on the roster.

What happened to all those guys with pink soap? If Richard Smith was so bad, as many thought, doesn't that assertion by definition mean that he was getting much less out of the talent on the defense than was available. Now that he's been replaced, the idea that much of the defense's problems were his is silly homerism. It seems that a lot of fans simply choose to take a pessimistic position until success hits them in the face.



I agree with the thought that Bush should be expected to get more out of what we have. I think this will be a very heavy Defensive Draft, and since Gibbs got what he wanted last year with Brown and Slaton, I think Bush will get what he wants as will Kollar.

With all of that said I think that the Texans can afford to and will invest several second day picks on Offense. I see a RB and OG/C bieng taken in the 4th. With another project very late in the draft. I also really think that Kubiak will take a QB in the 5th. I really could see him end up with McGee. He may see himself in the kid.

Bottom line the Defense better have improved with out one position change with the change of coaches. They were 22nd in total yards allowed. They need to move to around 14-18 in total defense before changing anything on the roster or they won't be making the playoffs again.

I'm drinking the Koolaid and I feel that Bush will get it done. Is it football season yet.........

Kaiser Toro
03-09-2009, 11:52 PM
I know... I happen to like the depth at LB while being very worried about RB, OL, and safety and that somehow makes me a shiny, happy fan.

I don't think you can find a fan more concerned with the center and guard position on this team nor anyone screaming that we need at least 2 more quality RBs on the roster.

What happened to all those guys with pink soap? If Richard Smith was so bad, as many thought, doesn't that assertion by definition mean that he was getting much less out of the talent on the defense than was available. Now that he's been replaced, the idea that much of the defense's problems were his is silly homerism. It seems that a lot of fans simply choose to take a pessimistic position until success hits them in the face.

That is certainly a narrative that one can offer. Or one could offer that our current LB corps is mostly signed through 2010, Adibi is 2011, and that we hope they progress and remain healthy. You mentioned it in a previous post, but do you believe a word that comes from our team on the health of the Texan players?

2009 - Ryans, Thompson
2010 - Bentley, Diles, Coley

dalemurphy
03-09-2009, 11:58 PM
That is certainly a narrative that one can offer. Or one could offer that our current LB corps is mostly signed through 2010, Adibi is 2011, and that we hope they progress and remain healthy. You mentioned it in a previous post, but do you believe a word that comes from our team on the health of the Texan players?

2009 - Ryans, Thompson
2010 - Bentley, Diles, Coley

I think I can discern when Kubiak is blowing smoke about injuries now. That being said, it really pisses me off the way he handles it. So, I'm working off the assumption that Diles and Adibi are healthy. Obviously, I would expect the organization to know better. If there are health concerns with those two then it obviously becomes a greater priority.

Since you brought up contracts. If 2010 is uncapped then DRyans won't be eligible for FA until 2012. And, I believe Diles and Coley's opportunity to reach UFA may be delayed further as well. Just something to keep an eye on . What an interesting season this is going to be for a number of reasons!

Kaiser Toro
03-10-2009, 12:04 AM
I think I can discern when Kubiak is blowing smoke about injuries now. That being said, it really pisses me off the way he handles it. So, I'm working off the assumption that Diles and Adibi are healthy. Obviously, I would expect the organization to know better. If there are health concerns with those two then it obviously becomes a greater priority.

Since you brought up contracts. If 2010 is uncapped then DRyans won't be eligible for FA until 2012. And, I believe Diles and Coley's opportunity to reach UFA may be delayed further as well. Just something to keep an eye on . What an interesting season this is going to be for a number of reasons!

Yes, that is one to way interpret the result of these contracts expiring, the other is are they good or healthy enough to re-sign, even with out the protection of IF in regards to an uncapped year? I personally do not think so and is another reason why we would need to fill that gap early in the draft.

You are looking for reasons why LB early, and they are all over the place.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 12:23 AM
Yes, that is one to way interpret the result of these contracts expiring, the other is are they good or healthy enough to re-sign, even with out the protection of IF in regards to an uncapped year? I personally do not think so and is another reason why we would need to fill that gap early in the draft.

You are looking for reasons why LB early, and they are all over the place.

Look at the contracts for my priority positions.

1. RB: Slaton 2011, Moats 2009, and CBrown 2009 (nobody else exists)
2. S: EWilson 2011, DBarber 2010, BHarrison 2009 (nobody else exists)
3. C/G: Pitts 2009, Myers 2010, Briesel 2009, Studdard-who cares!, CWhite 2009

Kaiser Toro
03-10-2009, 12:30 AM
Look at the contracts for my priority positions.

1. RB: Slaton 2011, Moats 2009, and CBrown 2009 (nobody else exists)
2. S: EWilson 2011, DBarber 2010, BHarrison 2009 (nobody else exists)
3. C/G: Pitts 2009, Myers 2010, Briesel 2009, Studdard-who cares!, CWhite 2009

This is why I believe that we need to address all of those positions in the first four rounds, but have not started a thread about everyone and their calling for a LB.

The unfortunate thing is that we have not addressed DE in FA, although some are saying we have. ;)

The Pencil Neck
03-10-2009, 12:57 AM
Drafting Oline wouldn't be just depth since Myers and Briesel are very limited athletes. They'd be competition and potential upgrades.


I was referring to Lucky's comment that we need O-Line depth. Even if we get a starter, we'd be fixing something that isn't the most broken.


As for RB, considering that even if Slaton is healthy for 16 games, we still need someone else to touch the ball 200 times from the backfield. I think a player that involved is worthy of a first round pick. Look around the league!!


I think there are going to be plenty of good RB's later in the draft that will perform more than admirably and I expect this coaching staff to be able to identify them.


By the way, other than A.Curry, there are no LBs likely to get drafted in the first round who have proven to be successful 3 down backers. Cushing, Matthews, Laurinitis, Maliluga... all have some questions. And, if we get a pure pass rusher like Maybin, Johnson, Orakpo, Brown... those guys won't be 3 down DEs either.

Like I said, anyone we pick at 15 is almost definitely going to be considered a reach by some if not most of the people on this board. I think that upgrading our LB corp is a good way to improve the whole defense.

The Pencil Neck
03-10-2009, 01:04 AM
What is your problem with Bentley? By the way, the LB class is very deep this year. Why can't LB be filled later in the draft. Why won't Adibi and Diles see the field again. According to the coaching staff, Adibi is healthy and Diles will be 100% for minicamp.


I think Bentley is a good backup. And right now, I think he's a better SAM than Diles.

I've heard that guys were healthy from this coaching staff before. And sometimes they were, and sometimes they weren't. I like Adibi. I think he could be a really good LB. But he had nothing but health issues all last year. I don't feel comfortable that's going to change.

Diles broke his leg running. That worries me.


I think we could use a lot of things of defense. I'd like a speed rushing DE. I'd like a run stuffing DT. I'd like a playmaking safety and a team can always get better at CB. I don't think we are maxed out with talent on any position on defense. I just fail to see how LB is more glaring a need than some others. While Adibi is a wild card as to what kind of player he'll be, I'm very comfortable with our depth at LB. Simply put, if Adibi misses the entire season, I think we can still have a good defense with Bentley starting in his place. How am I wrong about that? On the other hand, if Eugene Wilson gets injured, what the heck do we do at safety? If Pitts goes down and Studdard trots onto the field, our season is over!!

The thing is... at 15, what's available to us? Probably not a safety that's not a huge reach. Probably not a DE that's not a huge reach. Probably not a DT that's not a huge reach.

Maybe a corner.

Probably a LB.

And that's why everyone is calling for a LB. That's probably going to be the best defensive player available at the time we draft. And that's probably what we're going to draft.

threetoedpete
03-10-2009, 03:23 AM
Offensively, I'd look at Michael Oher if he slips or Jeremy Maclin if he's available.

Defensively, I think the BPA is going to come down to Peria Jerry or Brian Cushing. I wonder how they'll rate Vontae Davis and Alphonso Smith though. Could get a talented DE/OLB at this spot but I have no idea how to project them.

I saw where Oher switched agents....do you hear any cross talk as to why he switched ?


Well they could do anything. Got seven weeks to go. Kubes might fall in love with an offensive weapon. They may fall in love with Michael Johnson. They may fall in love with Orackpo....

If Ayers is there and he's the style of DE they want , I do not see how the signing of a four sack a year safe guard guy precludes them for taking Ayers. Not Robert Ayers fault every one had him under rated at the beginning of the process. But if you do that....unless you take a Jacoby Jones Prospect with great numbers.....you got Will guys and you got SAM guys....but not guys who can do both at a very high level.

I think Cushing is as close as you can get to a guy who can cover both sore spots at OLB just in case one of them can't go in September. I don't know what a high priority The staff place on that. What I know is what they looked like with out Dilles or Adibi in the line up. There was a considerable drop off. Not just at linebackers, but the drop off was like a virus infecting the whole defensive squad.

GP
03-10-2009, 09:31 AM
If I'm picking a Safety...it's going to be he's the BEST safety prospect out there. He's a lock. He's a stud.

I'm not going to sift through several mediocre Safeties and pick the best one out of the bunch. It's arguable that Jenkins is a "sure-fire stud" as an NFL Safety. So...outside of Jenkins, who is there at 15 that we get as a Safety?

Dale: The first four rounds have been considerably better for Smithiak than it was for Capers/Casselry. If you have those four spots as our highest four priorities, then I would say you're pretty on-target. It's just the issue of which of those four spots, at pick 15, offers the highest talent value.

Pete: Oher isn't going to be at pick 15. He's a big body, with good footwork, long reach, and is easily a Top 10 guy.

This is much ado about nothing.

Practically, looking at what players are likely to be gone before we pick at 15...it appears that LB will offer 2 or 3 guys who are strong "Round 1 talent" guys. As long as we keep drafting solid, fundamentally strong football players where they should be drafted, I don't care if we take a LB, a Safety, or a Punter. Well, maybe not a Punter at pick 15. Not when you have a 4th-down converting machine like Matt Turk!

bckey
03-10-2009, 09:38 AM
If we traded down 10 spots and took Unger in the first, I'd be freakin' ecstatic!! Then we'd have a second, two 3rds, two 4ths, and two 5ths to grab RBs, Safeties, a speed rusher, and whatever else we are in the mood for. That would be ideal!!

I'd take Alex Mack over Unger. I've been wanting this guy in a trade down. He is a beast. If we stay at 15 because we can't find a trading partner then it will probably be LB or CB.

beerlover
03-10-2009, 09:45 AM
I'm in general agreement with the boards and media that this team needs RB depth and help at safety. However, I don't get this almost universally held belief that it needs LB help- probably high in the draft. Someone explain to me why LB is such a major need for this team!- In other words, why is Adibi and Diles going to fail and why isn't Bentley, Coley, and Thompson quality depth?

Because the Texans linebackers scare nobody. Even DeMeco http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=5092 a great wrap up tackler is not known for bringing a physical presence (1 sack). Diles high motor overachiever coming off a broken leg lacks length, speed & is less than ideal size to play SLB (1 sack). Adibi is off the field more than on, health related, injurys & scheme, is a slimed down coverage WLB who has yet to show he can hold up against the run (0 sacks) back-up's Devin Bentley & Chaun Thompson ea. w/one sack, thats a mind boggling 4 sacks out of the entire group for last season & you "don't get this almost universally held belief that it needs LB help"? God help you man.

Frankly Frank, I don't get why the Texans changed to a 4-3 but surely this scheme is not as pathetic as it seems, & don't call me Shirley. Please address this early & often in the draft. Give me some of those Steeler type LB's who can press, sack the QB & generate intimidation themeselves. I'm sick & tired of watching the Steelers have all the fun. :doot:

Its not that hard to identify players who can help improve a defense rapidly starting with the LB position, just look @ what the Steelers did in the 2007 draft - 1st rd. pick #15 Lawrence Timmons 2nd rd. #46 LaMarr Woodley (same picks the Texans have 09) thats 16 1/2 sacks between the two, throw in James Harrison (16) thats 32 1/2 sacks. heck even James Farrior had as many sacks as the entire Texans LB's. pathetic & your satisfied w/Texans production, that they do not need to upgrade group as a whole :mcnugget:

dsorc
03-10-2009, 09:55 AM
How much did Bart Scott show as a rookie- he certainly isn't more talented than Adibi. What about Foote, Farrior, Woodley, L Briggs... I don't believe any of those guys, other than perhaps Woodley, has more athleticism or a better college career than Adibi. If a team is drafting a rookie in the first round it is saying that the depth is insufficient and/or the player is more talented and more likely to succeed than what is on the roster. Why would their be a belief that Cushing is going to be a better WLB than Adibi? wouldn't both guys be talented players with some question marks? And, with the good depth we have, why is it a neccessary pick?
Personally, I think that if we draft a LB it won't be to replace Adibi but to play opposite him. Let Adibi and Diles compete for the WLB spot and get a true SLB opposite them. Adibi and Diles both showed promise last year at times but neither is a sure thing and both have injury concerns. Nothing wrong with hedging our bets here. What's the worst that can happen really? If both Diles and Adibi are healthy and as good as we fans want them to be we should have a nice 3 man rotation on the outside that will keep everybody fresh and aggressive. We have some good depth but we don't have much top of the line talent at the position. And outside of Chaun Thompson we don't have any natural SLBs. (Diles is more of a MLB or WLB)

There is only one other spot where I feel we absolutely need a starter and that's SS. OG/C can be improved but the starters there are at least adequate. The rest of our draft is going to address primarily depth which is a very good thing and something this FO deserves credit for. Draft will probably go SS, SLB and OG/C early and BPA the rest of the way.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 10:41 AM
Because the Texans linebackers scare nobody. Even DeMeco http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=5092 a great wrap up tackler is not known for bringing a physical presence (1 sack). Diles high motor overachiever coming off a broken leg lacks length, speed & is less than ideal size to play SLB (1 sack). Adibi is off the field more than on, health related, injurys & scheme, is a slimed down coverage WLB who has yet to show he can hold up against the run (0 sacks) back-up's Devin Bentley & Chaun Thompson ea. w/one sack, thats a mind boggling 4 sacks out of the entire group for last season & you "don't get this almost universally held belief that it needs LB help"? God help you man.

Frankly Frank, I don't get why the Texans changed to a 4-3 but surely this scheme is not as pathetic as it seems, & don't call me Shirley. Please address this early & often in the draft. Give me some of those Steeler type LB's who can press, sack the QB & generate intimidation themeselves. I'm sick & tired of watching the Steelers have all the fun. :doot:

Its not that hard to identify players who can help improve a defense rapidly starting with the LB position, just look @ what the Steelers did in the 2007 draft - 1st rd. pick #15 Lawrence Timmons 2nd rd. #46 LaMarr Woodley (same picks the Texans have 09) thats 16 1/2 sacks between the two, throw in James Harrison (16) thats 32 1/2 sacks. heck even James Farrior had as many sacks as the entire Texans LB's. pathetic & your satisfied w/Texans production, that they do not need to upgrade group as a whole :mcnugget:

That's pretty disingenuous to compare Pittsburgh LBs to Houston. None of those guys you mentioned would play LB for us. And to compare sack totals between a 3-4 and a 4-3 team at LB is particularly ridiculous.

Traditionally, good 4-3 defenses need Lbs that can chase and tackle- that's about it. The concentration of money and playmakers on most 4-3 defenses is the DL and the secondary.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what Brian Cushing has in common with Lamar Woodley or James Harrison.

El Tejano
03-10-2009, 10:42 AM
Because the Texans linebackers scare nobody. Even DeMeco http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=5092 a great wrap up tackler is not known for bringing a physical presence (1 sack). Diles high motor overachiever coming off a broken leg lacks length, speed & is less than ideal size to play SLB (1 sack). Adibi is off the field more than on, health related, injurys & scheme, is a slimed down coverage WLB who has yet to show he can hold up against the run (0 sacks) back-up's Devin Bentley & Chaun Thompson ea. w/one sack, thats a mind boggling 4 sacks out of the entire group for last season & you "don't get this almost universally held belief that it needs LB help"? God help you man.

Frankly Frank, I don't get why the Texans changed to a 4-3 but surely this scheme is not as pathetic as it seems, & don't call me Shirley. Please address this early & often in the draft. Give me some of those Steeler type LB's who can press, sack the QB & generate intimidation themeselves. I'm sick & tired of watching the Steelers have all the fun. :doot:

Its not that hard to identify players who can help improve a defense rapidly starting with the LB position, just look @ what the Steelers did in the 2007 draft - 1st rd. pick #15 Lawrence Timmons 2nd rd. #46 LaMarr Woodley (same picks the Texans have 09) thats 16 1/2 sacks between the two, throw in James Harrison (16) thats 32 1/2 sacks. heck even James Farrior had as many sacks as the entire Texans LB's. pathetic & your satisfied w/Texans production, that they do not need to upgrade group as a whole :mcnugget:

Amen. Our rivals, the Titans, have these kind of LBs and they enjoyed some success. It wasn't their defense that lossed in the playoffs.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 10:51 AM
Amen. Our rivals, the Titans, have these kind of LBs and they enjoyed some success. It wasn't their defense that lossed in the playoffs.

Huh?, name the amazing Titan LBs and how about including the round they were drafted in. Also, perhaps you can look at how they produced as rookies and first year starters so that you can do a side by side comparison with Adibi and Diles... don't forget to include Demeco Ryans.

beerlover
03-10-2009, 11:07 AM
That's pretty disingenuous to compare Pittsburgh LBs to Houston. None of those guys you mentioned would play LB for us. And to compare sack totals between a 3-4 and a 4-3 team at LB is particularly ridiculous.

Traditionally, good 4-3 defenses need Lbs that can chase and tackle- that's about it. The concentration of money and playmakers on most 4-3 defenses is the DL and the secondary.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what Brian Cushing has in common with Lamar Woodley or James Harrison.


the premise none of those LB's could play for the Texans is ridiculous.

Also I doubt Frank Bush plays a traditional 4-3 but he needs playmakers to do it.

for your information I'm not on the Cushing bandwagon either but the big thing going for him was he played some @ DE so he does have pass rushing skills that does translate to Woodley or Harrison, although I'm much higher on English or Sintim (SAM).

I don't care the Steelers play a 3-4 the fact is they addressed need @ LB position early in the 07 draft that transferred to a SB in just two years.

BigBull17
03-10-2009, 11:20 AM
That's pretty disingenuous to compare Pittsburgh LBs to Houston. None of those guys you mentioned would play LB for us. And to compare sack totals between a 3-4 and a 4-3 team at LB is particularly ridiculous.

Traditionally, good 4-3 defenses need Lbs that can chase and tackle- that's about it. The concentration of money and playmakers on most 4-3 defenses is the DL and the secondary.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what Brian Cushing has in common with Lamar Woodley or James Harrison.

While its not totally fair to compare 3-4 LB's to 4-3 Lb's, the fact that we have 4 sacks as a whole unit is very pathetic. VERY. Its hard to be that inept at rushing the passer. When you watch them blitz, it makes you want to cry because you know they have no chance at doing anything. Its even worse when you think about our starting LB's returning 2 sacks in a 16 game season. 2!!!!

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 11:20 AM
the premise none of those LB's could play for the Texans is ridiculous.

Also I doubt Frank Bush plays a traditional 4-3 but he needs playmakers to do it.

for your information I'm not on the Cushing bandwagon either but the big thing going for him was he played some @ DE so he does have pass rushing skills that does translate to Woodley or Harrison, although I'm much higher on English or Sintim (SAM).

I don't care the Steelers play a 3-4 the fact is they addressed need @ LB position early in the 07 draft that transferred to a SB in just two years.


English can't play for us either. You don't seem to comprehend that the OLB in a 3-4 has basically nothing to do with any LB position in a 4-3 defense. Also, it's silly to compare sacks as a measuring stick for their success. First, the goal of our 4-3 is for the Dl to make the plays. Second, I'll grant you that Richard Smith was a fool and our defense was hideous last year while Pittsburgh's was awesome. That being said, I don't think the primary reason for the disparity between the two defenses was the LB play. I tend to think it was Dick Labeau vs. Richard Smtih.

Most great 403 defenses only pick up a few sacks per season from their LBs. All four Steeler LBs will rush the QB much more than any Texan LB will... it's just a difference in schemes. Perhaps you're in love with 3-4 defenses but that won't change the fact that we won't have one.

Texans_Chick
03-10-2009, 11:32 AM
Needs in order of priority:

1. safety- a 6th rounder that played well on special teams is the defacto starting SS and our only backup is Brandon "I just got my nails done" Harrison.

2.RB- Ryan Moats, Chris Brown, and Cecil Sapp are the only backs other than Slaton on the roster. One has a bad back, one is a FB, and the other is just not any good.

3. C/G- We have two moderately talented journeyman types starting at C and RG... Then, our primary backup guard needs a spotter just to tie his own shoe (Studdard!)

4. Take your pick: DE, DT, LB, CB

I don't know how anyone can even dispute that LB is no higher than 4th. That being said, I do understand that the 4th priority could still get addressed in the first round, depending on how the talent falls and where we end up.

Okay, the problem I have with your assessment of priorities is that it ignores the reality of salary cap economics and value.

You have to look at how money has already been distributed on the team, what is make-do function and what is not.

Safety is not a position you typically draft in the first round moneywise--unless you have a guaranteed lock guy you can draft. Would I love to finally see solid safety play from the Texans? Yes. Do I think there is a safety in this draft who could be an impact player for the Texans? I dunno but it sure would be nice. I think think all the defensive play for the Texans has sucked--getting an impact player in linebacker is likely going to make a bigger difference than getting an impact player at safety.

Backup running back though a need is not something you want to pay a lot of salary cap money to so yes the Texans are going to get a free agent and a draft pick, but it would blow me away if it were higher than the third round.

C/G- I think you are a little harsh on Briesel based on where he came from. I've talked to a number of people who do analysis of line work who actually were pretty happy with his play. Would I like an upgrade at Center? Would I like to see more depth Sure. But the offense has already demonstrated that they can make-do with what they have. The defense is a catastrophe of gigantic proportions--we have no idea whether this staff can turn it around because they haven't been able to show much to demonstrate that they can.

DE-Do you really want to spend even more first round money at DE?

DT-This is a crap DT draft at the top.

CB-You can never get enough quality CBs in the AFC South but maybe there isn't good value where the Texans would be drafting.

I would like an upgrade at just about every position on the field but you have to pick and choose what you can do based on salary cap and triage of what is your most crucial issues and whether this draft is a one that can fix that issue.

Mr. White
03-10-2009, 11:36 AM
Because the Texans linebackers scare nobody. Even DeMeco http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=5092 a great wrap up tackler is not known for bringing a physical presence (1 sack). Diles high motor overachiever coming off a broken leg lacks length, speed & is less than ideal size to play SLB (1 sack). Adibi is off the field more than on, health related, injurys & scheme, is a slimed down coverage WLB who has yet to show he can hold up against the run (0 sacks) back-up's Devin Bentley & Chaun Thompson ea. w/one sack, thats a mind boggling 4 sacks out of the entire group for last season & you "don't get this almost universally held belief that it needs LB help"? God help you man.


I think it's not that simple. Until we get a real D-Line, everyone is gonna suffer.

TJ and Amobi play on skates. I consider them 2 more offensive linemen because the LB's have to figure out how to get around these 2 guys if they want to make a play. I'm sure that hasn't helped much with the LB injury situation either, considering they keep getting driven into the LB's knees by opposing offensive lines.

Count me in with Dale.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 11:43 AM
Okay, the problem I have with your assessment of priorities is that it ignores the reality of salary cap economics and value.

You have to look at how money has already been distributed on the team, what is make-do function and what is not.



Look at the NY Giants. Two years ago, with Strahan, Tuck, Osi Umenyiora all under contract the Giants spent their first round pick on Kiwanuka... By the way, they won the superbowl the following season.

The Giants this season, spent more money on Chris Canty and Rocky Benard, add them to the above mentioned group of DEs and to Brandon Toefield and Fred Robbins.

I would argue that if you have a lot of money invested in a bad player, it's irrelavent what position he plays. Simply put, he's dead money. That bad contract or wasted draftpick is going to adversely affect the team as a whole and can't/shouldn't be isolated to one segment of the team. So, we have about $8 million under this year's cap tied up into TJ and Weaver. That sucks but it doesn't change the fact that we still need to improve at DT. And, if the philosophy of the team is to build from the line of scrimmage and then out from there, as an organization I may make a calculated gamble that I can patch together adecent unit at LB or at CB and focus on finally solving our issues on the DL.

BigBull17
03-10-2009, 11:45 AM
Okay, the problem I have with your assessment of priorities is that it ignores the reality of salary cap economics and value.

You have to look at how money has already been distributed on the team, what is make-do function and what is not.

Safety is not a position you typically draft in the first round moneywise--unless you have a guaranteed lock guy you can draft. Would I love to finally see solid safety play from the Texans? Yes. Do I think there is a safety in this draft who could be an impact player for the Texans? I dunno but it sure would be nice. I think think all the defensive play for the Texans has sucked--getting an impact player in linebacker is likely going to make a bigger difference than getting an impact player at safety.

Backup running back though a need is not something you want to pay a lot of salary cap money to so yes the Texans are going to get a free agent and a draft pick, but it would blow me away if it were higher than the third round.

C/G- I think you are a little harsh on Briesel based on where he came from. I've talked to a number of people who do analysis of line work who actually were pretty happy with his play. Would I like an upgrade at Center? Would I like to see more depth Sure. But the offense has already demonstrated that they can make-do with what they have. The defense is a catastrophe of gigantic proportions--we have no idea whether this staff can turn it around because they haven't been able to show much to demonstrate that they can.

DE-Do you really want to spend even more first round money at DE?

DT-This is a crap DT draft at the top.

CB-You can never get enough quality CBs in the AFC South but maybe there isn't good value where the Texans would be drafting.

I would like an upgrade at just about every position on the field but you have to pick and choose what you can do based on salary cap and triage of what is your most crucial issues and whether this draft is a one that can fix that issue.

Great points all around. I'm not a fan of the Dlinemen in this draft. A big run stuffer would be nice, but that comes in the later half of the draft.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 11:53 AM
While its not totally fair to compare 3-4 LB's to 4-3 Lb's, the fact that we have 4 sacks as a whole unit is very pathetic. VERY. Its hard to be that inept at rushing the passer. When you watch them blitz, it makes you want to cry because you know they have no chance at doing anything. Its even worse when you think about our starting LB's returning 2 sacks in a 16 game season. 2!!!!

Count the number of blitzes. Lawrence Taylor is getting through a season in his prime with more than 2 sacks if he's never called on to blitz.

By the way, I agree that the defense was pathetic and that the LBs need to make more plays. HOwever, I happen to believe that the staff changes will allow that to happen. Everyone was so gungho about blaming Richard Smith for the putrid defense but now that he's gone, nobody wants to acknowledge that the defense had more talent than was displayed last year.

I think we have 5 LBs on the roster right now that are good enough to play in the NFL and not be exposed. I simply don't see that kind of quality depth on much of the rest of the roster. So, even if you think Diles is a below average starter, the existence of Bentley and Thompson and the tape of Diles last year making a fair amount of plays mitigates against spending the team's top resources on that position... not while Kasey Studdard, Ryan Moats, and Brandon Harrison are primary backups- which means we should plan on seeing them all on the field for an extensive period of time. Who wants that?

Goldensilence
03-10-2009, 11:55 AM
I think it's not that simple. Until we get a real D-Line, everyone is gonna suffer.

TJ and Amobi play on skates. I consider them 2 more offensive linemen because the LB's have to figure out how to get around these 2 guys if they want to make a play. I'm sure that hasn't helped much with the LB injury situation either, considering they keep getting driven into the LB's knees by opposing offensive lines.

Count me in with Dale.

I think the problem with TJ and Amobi has been what they have been asked to do. It has gone against their strengths which is their quickness and ability to get in the backfield. Instead they were asked to play the role of standup tackles and to add to the cluster**** was bad Lber play outside of DeMeco Ryans.

A lot of people are going to point to better defensive play with Dunta's return which I don't agrue against. We had to be more comfortable with his presence in the secondary. I think once Bentley and Adibi were inserted into the lineup we immediately upgraded the team speed. I don't mind if we're a bit undersized long as the team makes up for it with speed and gang tackling. If they can fly I'm good. Being aggressive is a pretty nebulous statement, what I'm hoping for is something along the lines of fly to the ball, gang tackle, and try to force fumbles.

Dale I think what people are still trying to reinterate a thousand times over is looking at the 15 spot barring us getting lucky and someone top tier slipping to us what are our options at 15? It'd be great getting another trade back but there's no guarantee of it. LB is a position that could use an upgrade. Much as I like Adibi couldn't stay healthy this year but then again it was jsut his rookie campaign. I'm not against Diles but he lacks sideline to sideline speed while he might not be terrible I see his seeing being a better Morlon Greenwood. Best value for this team if we stay at 15 is linebacker whehter that is Cushing, taking Matthews or Laurenitis a little early. Of those 3 IMO Laurentitis has the least amount of questions and plays with great intensity which again IMO is something the defense could use.

Specnatz
03-10-2009, 12:25 PM
Look at the NY Giants. Two years ago, with Strahan, Tuck, Osi Umenyiora all under contract the Giants spent their first round pick on Kiwanuka... By the way, they won the superbowl the following season.

The Giants this season, spent more money on Chris Canty and Rocky Benard, add them to the above mentioned group of DEs and to Brandon Toefield and Fred Robbins.

I would argue that if you have a lot of money invested in a bad player, it's irrelavent what position he plays. Simply put, he's dead money. That bad contract or wasted draftpick is going to adversely affect the team as a whole and can't/shouldn't be isolated to one segment of the team. So, we have about $8 million under this year's cap tied up into TJ and Weaver. That sucks but it doesn't change the fact that we still need to improve at DT. And, if the philosophy of the team is to build from the line of scrimmage and then out from there, as an organization I may make a calculated gamble that I can patch together adecent unit at LB or at CB and focus on finally solving our issues on the DL.

You do realize that they drafted Kiwanuka to play LB and that he was moved to DE lst year because of the retirement of Strahan and the injury to Osi. So that kinda blows your argument up with in regards to him.



By the way, I agree that the defense was pathetic and that the LBs need to make more plays. HOwever, I happen to believe that the staff changes will allow that to happen. Everyone was so gungho about blaming Richard Smith for the putrid defense but now that he's gone, nobody wants to acknowledge that the defense had more talent than was displayed last year.

I think we have 5 LBs on the roster right now that are good enough to play in the NFL and not be exposed. I simply don't see that kind of quality depth on much of the rest of the roster. So, even if you think Diles is a below average starter, the existence of Bentley and Thompson and the tape of Diles last year making a fair amount of plays mitigates against spending the team's top resources on that position... not while Kasey Studdard, Ryan Moats, and Brandon Harrison are primary backups- which means we should plan on seeing them all on the field for an extensive period of time. Who wants that?

Just because people want upgrades at a position you do not then we are not acknowledging talent, Hugh? People blamed Smith for his schemes and dropping a DE into coverage all the time and not trying to cover up some of the lack of talent and letting a player get repeatedly torched, ala Faggins one on one with no safety help over the top.


So you want good enough not anything better than that?

beerlover
03-10-2009, 12:42 PM
English can't play for us either. You don't seem to comprehend that the OLB in a 3-4 has basically nothing to do with any LB position in a 4-3 defense. Also, it's silly to compare sacks as a measuring stick for their success. First, the goal of our 4-3 is for the Dl to make the plays. Second, I'll grant you that Richard Smith was a fool and our defense was hideous last year while Pittsburgh's was awesome. That being said, I don't think the primary reason for the disparity between the two defenses was the LB play. I tend to think it was Dick Labeau vs. Richard Smtih.

Most great 403 defenses only pick up a few sacks per season from their LBs. All four Steeler LBs will rush the QB much more than any Texan LB will... it's just a difference in schemes. Perhaps you're in love with 3-4 defenses but that won't change the fact that we won't have one.

"fail to comprehend the differences in defensive schemes" I doubt that. expect more production regardless of scheme, you betcha. Did we all suddenly forget our history lesson on the 3-4 defense with Dom Capers? doubt that too, so don't come in here with blanket statements indicting fans that they don't understand the scheme, or the personel your the one who asked the question I'm just one to respond back who totaly disagrees with both your assertion that LB is OK & that a pass rush is not to be expected just because Frank Bush runs a 4-3.

mess with bull get the horn thats my new motto :logo:

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 12:52 PM
"fail to comprehend the differences in defensive schemes" I doubt that. expect more production regardless of scheme, you betcha. Did we all suddenly forget our history lesson on the 3-4 defense with Dom Capers? doubt that too, so don't come in here with blanket statements indicting fans that they don't understand the scheme, or the personel your the one who asked the question I'm just one to respond back who totaly disagrees with both your assertion that LB is OK & that a pass rush is not to be expected just because Frank Bush runs a 4-3.

mess with bull get the horn thats my new motto :logo:

If you are using sacks as a measuring stick when comparing outside linebackers in a 3-4 to those in a 4-3, you either don't get it or you are intentionally trying to mislead those that don't get it in order to "win" an argument. Obviously, sacks aren't the way to measure production at the LB position in a 4-3- certainly not in a Richard Smith- bend and then break defense.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 12:57 PM
You do realize that they drafted Kiwanuka to play LB and that he was moved to DE lst year because of the retirement of Strahan and the injury to Osi. So that kinda blows your argument up with in regards to him.




Just because people want upgrades at a position you do not then we are not acknowledging talent, Hugh? People blamed Smith for his schemes and dropping a DE into coverage all the time and not trying to cover up some of the lack of talent and letting a player get repeatedly torched, ala Faggins one on one with no safety help over the top.


So you want good enough not anything better than that?


you are totally misrepresenting me. I would love for the team to get better at LB. My point is that we better make sure safety, rb, and center/guard positions get addressed in the draft or our season will be ruined! If we miss on a LB in the draft or don't take one, I think we can still have an excellent season. That's all I'm saying- We can win with Diles, Adibi, Bentley, CThompson, Coley. We can not win if Kasey Studdard starts 8 games and we can't win if BHarrison ends up starting at safety. And, not only will we struggle to win but we will jeopardize Steve Slaton's career, if we don't upgrade over Ryan Moats at RB.

HoustonFrog
03-10-2009, 01:15 PM
I haven't read the other pages..have been out of town and gone from here...but my main reason is I honestly think you can extend the career of DeMeco by adding a true thumper at MLB and moving him outside. Many people dispute this by saying that DeMeco isn't fast enough to then rush and get to the QB but I think that is a false assumption and his football skills are superior enough to be able to situationally get there. He can be freed up from the larger guys inside who are wearing on a smaller body. Not only this but it seems that LB is always one of the safer immediate impact positions for the first round. Guys like Willis and others have stepped up. Yes there are busts but for the most part they add a dimension to the defense. The Texans seem to have a small group and I always would like to add to it. I just think when you look at the 1st round D at 15 or lower, LB will be your impact position where you might reach at D-line or safety or DB. In fact I'd say you coukld go WR/KR or LB and still get a talent. Its the ability to not reach for a specific need and just add playmakers.

Specnatz
03-10-2009, 01:15 PM
you are totally misrepresenting me. I would love for the team to get better at LB. My point is that we better make sure safety, rb, and center/guard positions get addressed in the draft or our season will be ruined! If we miss on a LB in the draft or don't take one, I think we can still have an excellent season. That's all I'm saying- We can win with Diles, Adibi, Bentley, CThompson, Coley. We can not win if Kasey Studdard starts 8 games and we can't win if BHarrison ends up starting at safety. And, not only will we struggle to win but we will jeopardize Steve Slaton's career, if we don't upgrade over Ryan Moats at RB.

We do have 8 draft picks, and with only having two RBs on the roster (I will not count Chris Brown), chances are we will have more than that by the time OTA start. We also only have 3 Safeties on the roster, 2 SS and 1 FS, so there is a safe bet that will change as well.

RB will be done just not in the first two rounds because only a team that is loaded would draft a back-up RB in the first. Meaning a team that is drafting in the bottom of the first, like the Steelers.

BigBull17
03-10-2009, 01:16 PM
you are totally misrepresenting me. I would love for the team to get better at LB. My point is that we better make sure safety, rb, and center/guard positions get addressed in the draft or our season will be ruined! If we miss on a LB in the draft or don't take one, I think we can still have an excellent season. That's all I'm saying- We can win with Diles, Adibi, Bentley, CThompson, Coley. We can not win if Kasey Studdard starts 8 games and we can't win if BHarrison ends up starting at safety. And, not only will we struggle to win but we will jeopardize Steve Slaton's career, if we don't upgrade over Ryan Moats at RB.

Even on their worst days, our C/G position is better than out LB's. Our oline started 16 games, and was 3rd in total yards with two turn over machines at QB. Hmm. Slaton is a 1000+ rusher, who can block ok and is great out of the back field. WIlson and Fergison were ok, and Barber showed alot considering he was a 6th round pick. Dline has alot of money tied up in it, and 3 of our starters are a lock, due to money/talent. Everything is too unproven at Line Backer. One guy plays in 8 games and misses time with injuries, the other misses toward the end of the season with a broken leg. The other guys are jorneymen back-up's. We need a little more talent in out LB's, so Diles and Adibi can be WLB/back ups.

The Pencil Neck
03-10-2009, 01:19 PM
you are totally misrepresenting me. I would love for the team to get better at LB. My point is that we better make sure safety, rb, and center/guard positions get addressed in the draft or our season will be ruined! If we miss on a LB in the draft or don't take one, I think we can still have an excellent season. That's all I'm saying- We can win with Diles, Adibi, Bentley, CThompson, Coley. We can not win if Kasey Studdard starts 8 games and we can't win if BHarrison ends up starting at safety. And, not only will we struggle to win but we will jeopardize Steve Slaton's career, if we don't upgrade over Ryan Moats at RB.

So basically, there's no reason for the discussion to continue.

I fully expect most of those positions to be addressed in the draft. Just not in the first round. I think most of the people in the discussion feel the same way.

With the first pick, they're going to go after whatever position has the greatest value depending on the picks available. And that's probably going to be LB unless they can trade down. But later on, I fully expect them to pick up an interior lineman, a complimentary running back, a rush de, and a safety.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 01:43 PM
Even on their worst days, our C/G position is better than out LB's. Our oline started 16 games, and was 3rd in total yards with two turn over machines at QB. Hmm. Slaton is a 1000+ rusher, who can block ok and is great out of the back field. WIlson and Fergison were ok, and Barber showed alot considering he was a 6th round pick. Dline has alot of money tied up in it, and 3 of our starters are a lock, due to money/talent. Everything is too unproven at Line Backer. One guy plays in 8 games and misses time with injuries, the other misses toward the end of the season with a broken leg. The other guys are jorneymen back-up's. We need a little more talent in out LB's, so Diles and Adibi can be WLB/back ups.

When Pitts gets injured and is replaced by Studdard, remember that statement. Because, as the roster stands now, losing Pitts will quickly cost us Matt Schaub and Orlavsky as well. Studdard may be the worst Olineman being employed in the NFL since Jimmy Herndon. It's simply ignorant to say that we have more talent at C/G than we do at LB. There is just no way that's true. OF the 5 interior olinemen (Pitts, Myers, Briesel, Studdard, White), only Pitts was acquired for more than a 6th round pick. Meanwhile, Demeco Ryans, Xavier Adibi, Bentley, and C.Thompson were all drafted in the first four rounds and are clearly very good athletes.

Specnatz
03-10-2009, 01:59 PM
When Pitts gets injured and is replaced by Studdard, remember that statement. Because, as the roster stands now, losing Pitts will quickly cost us Matt Schaub and Orlavsky as well. Studdard may be the worst Olineman being employed in the NFL since Jimmy Herndon. It's simply ignorant to say that we have more talent at C/G than we do at LB. There is just no way that's true. OF the 5 interior olinemen (Pitts, Myers, Briesel, Studdard, White), only Pitts was acquired for more than a 6th round pick. Meanwhile, Demeco Ryans, Xavier Adibi, Bentley, and C.Thompson were all drafted in the first four rounds and are clearly very good athletes.

Why does it matter what round they were drafted in? Just because a player was drafted in a certain round does not mean he is a starter or the other way around. Prime example ... TJ.

I think you are putting to much emphasis into that.

wags
03-10-2009, 02:00 PM
Studdard may be the worst Olineman being employed in the NFL since Jimmy Herndon.

Man, that's a kick in the nutsack!!

BigBull17
03-10-2009, 02:10 PM
When Pitts gets injured and is replaced by Studdard, remember that statement. Because, as the roster stands now, losing Pitts will quickly cost us Matt Schaub and Orlavsky as well. Studdard may be the worst Olineman being employed in the NFL since Jimmy Herndon. It's simply ignorant to say that we have more talent at C/G than we do at LB. There is just no way that's true. OF the 5 interior olinemen (Pitts, Myers, Briesel, Studdard, White), only Pitts was acquired for more than a 6th round pick. Meanwhile, Demeco Ryans, Xavier Adibi, Bentley, and C.Thompson were all drafted in the first four rounds and are clearly very good athletes.

I'm not oblivious to the fact that we need more depth at OG/C, but our linebacker's are neck in neck. Claiming Bently and Thompson were hign draft picks is irrelevent. They were busts who didnt pan out. They are special teamers who can give you a half here, a game there. Diles and Adibi are very unproven, considering they have less than one full season under their belts. Its ignorant to assume they can be healthy for a whole year when they havent.

GP
03-10-2009, 03:05 PM
you are totally misrepresenting me. I would love for the team to get better at LB. My point is that we better make sure safety, rb, and center/guard positions get addressed in the draft or our season will be ruined! If we miss on a LB in the draft or don't take one, I think we can still have an excellent season. That's all I'm saying- We can win with Diles, Adibi, Bentley, CThompson, Coley. We can not win if Kasey Studdard starts 8 games and we can't win if BHarrison ends up starting at safety. And, not only will we struggle to win but we will jeopardize Steve Slaton's career, if we don't upgrade over Ryan Moats at RB.

You've done a good job of making sure everyone knows that, Dale.

You're getting hung up on ROUND ONE. The reasons why so many people are thinking LB in ROUND ONE is because of the nature of ROUND ONE. This has been made clear by lots of other people. Outside of Andre Johnson, I don't know of any other Texans ROUND ONE draft picks that have been easily spotted from a mile away (Excluding Carr and Mario who were locked up pre-draft). So a good deal of us, here, are going to be thrilled or neutral or puzzled or extremely angry with what we do in ROUND ONE.

I think I can see which one of those attitudes you're going to display if Smithiak doesn't adhere to what you think is the top priority. If you expect a Safety or DB our first pick...you might need a chair and a deflector shield between your remote and the TV.

There are EIGHT draft picks, and not all of them can be a first rounder, OK? Rounds 1-4 give us a great chance at finding talent AND necessary position help all at the same time.

You seem to be focusing on converting people to your ideas, and there are some parts of your ideas that are easily in-line with everyone else's ideas. But there is a sense of fatalism in the tone of your argument. "Our season will be ruined!" Come on, Dale...that's a job for Gary Kubiak and he usually takes care of that within the first 6 weeks of each season.

Relax a little. We hear what you're saying.

As long as the guy we get is a guy with obvious TALENT, and not some Jabroni we've over-reached for, I don't give a crap what we get. Odds, however, are pointing to a LB. And yet again: It only takes one or two teams ahead of us to completely blow up ANY scenario that even Smithiak has prepared to follow.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 03:11 PM
Why does it matter what round they were drafted in? Just because a player was drafted in a certain round does not mean he is a starter or the other way around. Prime example ... TJ.

I think you are putting to much emphasis into that.

It's a good indicator of talent- not production but talent. I'm trying to figure out how to show someone that C. Thompson and Adibi are more talented than Kasey Studdard and Mike Briesel... It's so ridiculoous that I'm a bit befuddled how to do it.

For some reason, the fact that we had zero injuries on the oline last year has this fan base confident that trend will continue indefinitely.

Specnatz
03-10-2009, 03:19 PM
It's a good indicator of talent- not production but talent. I'm trying to figure out how to show someone that C. Thompson and Adibi are more talented than Kasey Studdard and Mike Briesel... It's so ridiculoous that I'm a bit befuddled how to do it.

For some reason, the fact that we had zero injuries on the oline last year has this fan base confident that trend will continue indefinitely.

You are being very Moriarty with injuries though. You have brought it up about a few positions.

Petey Faggins talented?

GP
03-10-2009, 03:20 PM
It's a good indicator of talent- not production but talent. I'm trying to figure out how to show someone that C. Thompson and Adibi are more talented than Kasey Studdard and Mike Briesel... It's so ridiculoous that I'm a bit befuddled how to do it.

For some reason, the fact that we had zero injuries on the oline last year has this fan base confident that trend will continue indefinitely.

All four of those guys, IMO, are on an equal playing field in terms of what they mean to this team. Easily replaceable, but are kept because they fit for now and have good, reasonable attitudes about their roles here.

With our shaky defensive backfield, and a d-line that's struggling to get adequate pressure on a QB (frequently), it's not grasping at straws to say that this team needs talent in the middle of the defense: To help the line, and to help the backfield.

We've gone down this road so many times, Dale, that it is quite frankly befuddling everyone else why you cannot see the opposite side of the coin here.

Truth be told: As Rick Smith has said..."We're a ways away, several years of draft classes, from being where we need to be."

It ain't all going to come together after one draft class. We need help in a lot of areas, and there's only one ROUND ONE pick every year for us. It would not be surprising if Smithiak took something other than what any of us are expecting them to take.

Can we stop this now?

nunusguy
03-10-2009, 03:37 PM
John McClain finished a "chat-session" earlier this afternoon and everybody over there was gah gah eyed over USC backer Clay Matthews, including McClain himself. Fact is a lot of people have Matthews right up there with his
Trojan LB teammates Rey-Reey & Cushing ?
OK, here's my question: if Matthews is that good, how come he started for the Trojan D only in his senior year while the other 2 LBs started multi-years, actually both for 3 years if I'm not mistaken ?

TexanAddict
03-10-2009, 04:00 PM
John McClain finished a "chat-session" earlier this afternoon and everybody over there was gah gah eyed over USC backer Clay Matthews, including McClain himself. Fact is a lot of people have Matthews right up there with his
Trojan LB teammates Rey-Reey & Cushing ?
OK, here's my question: if Matthews is that good, how come he started for the Trojan D only in his senior year while the other 2 LBs started multi-years, actually both for 3 years if I'm not mistaken ?

The reason McClain is drooling over this kid is because he has totally lost touch with the current landscape of the NFL and his only connections are old Oilers/Titans buddies. If we were to draft Clay Matthews this would give McClain the ability to write article after article...comparing Clay to his father and uncle (Bruce), and what's it like playing on the team that your uncle is now a coach of, and hey Bruce what's it like coaching your nephew, hey, let's relive some more of the Oiler's glory days...and so on.

Ole Miss Texan
03-10-2009, 04:29 PM
Well you do realize USC consistently produces very good talent, especially at the LB position. Matthews walked onto the football team in 2004. During his career at USC he had to battle with Lofa Tatupu, Oscar Lua, Keith Rivers, Rey Maualuga and Brian Cushing.

Some players develop at different paces. Matthews, to me, seems like a guy that has had to work hard over the years and finally got his shot late in 2007 and during 2008. He made the most of it. Now he's entering the NFL and could potentially be developing more.

The number of starts a guy has had during college isn't usually that important to me. What is important is what kind of experience they have. That comes from starts, reserve roles, special teams and just actual playing time on the field.

Who cares if he couldn't start in place of Keith Rivers, Lofa Tatupu, Rey Rey or Cushing. If he's at the level they are now and "just getting there" by some peoples thoughts, maybe he has more upside heading into the pros.

GP
03-10-2009, 04:32 PM
The reason McClain is drooling over this kid is because he has totally lost touch with the current landscape of the NFL and his only connections are old Oilers/Titans buddies. If we were to draft Clay Matthews this would give McClain the ability to write article after article...comparing Clay to his father and uncle (Bruce), and what's it like playing on the team that your uncle is now a coach of, and hey Bruce what's it like coaching your nephew, hey, let's relive some more of the Oiler's glory days...and so on.

LOL.

So true.

Good impersonation, even though was just text.

leebigeztx
03-10-2009, 05:26 PM
I like Barwin because he was a ex te so he'll be good in coverage and if you want to blitz him as a joker or flex as a 3-4, he can come off the edge. His versitility is one of the main reasons why I think the texans should draft the guy late 1st if they move down. He's in the Chris Gocong/Julian Peterson/Mathuis Kiwi mold. A tall,rangy, athletic slm/de.

mussop
03-10-2009, 06:32 PM
I was going to start a similar thread a few days ago. Never got to it. I really dont care what position we draft as long as the value is good. I dont give a flying patooty about how much we have invested in a certain position or if the player plays a position of need. As long as the player can come in and contribute relative to where we take him then we are going to be improving our team.

Trade downs arent as easy as some people think. If we cant trade down and there is a no value at a need position it would be stupid to reach. At this stage in this teams development we CANNOT afford to reach. Its funny how people here decide certain positions are a weakness and start this nonsense of drafting each round based on biggest need first. There are only so many core players on this team. Schaub, Johnson, Mario, Ryans, Slaton and OD are the only ones who we should not be looking to upgrade.

In the first and second round we need someone who will come in and either start or contribute at a high level. If we accomplish that I will be happy no matter what position he plays.

ArlingtonTexan
03-10-2009, 06:50 PM
:goodpost: Someone who pretty much gets the draft. thank you.

I was going to start a similar thread a few days ago. Never got to it. I really dont care what position we draft as long as the value is good. I dont give a flying patooty about how much we have invested in a certain position or if the player plays a position of need. As long as the player can come in and contribute relative to where we take him then we are going to be improving our team.

Trade downs arent as easy as some people think. If we cant trade down and there is a no value at a need position it would be stupid to reach. At this stage in this teams development we CANNOT afford to reach. Its funny how people here decide certain positions are a weakness and start this nonsense of drafting each round based on biggest need first. There are only so many core players on this team. Schaub, Johnson, Mario, Ryans, Slaton and OD are the only ones who we should not be looking to upgrade.

In the first and second round we need someone who will come in and either start or contribute at a high level. If we accomplish that I will be happy no matter what position he plays.

ChampionTexan
03-10-2009, 06:52 PM
Well you do realize USC consistently produces very good talent, especially at the LB position. Matthews walked onto the football team in 2004. During his career at USC he had to battle with Lofa Tatupu, Oscar Lua, Keith Rivers, Rey Maualuga and Brian Cushing.

Some players develop at different paces. Matthews, to me, seems like a guy that has had to work hard over the years and finally got his shot late in 2007 and during 2008. He made the most of it. Now he's entering the NFL and could potentially be developing more.

The number of starts a guy has had during college isn't usually that important to me. What is important is what kind of experience they have. That comes from starts, reserve roles, special teams and just actual playing time on the field.

Who cares if he couldn't start in place of Keith Rivers, Lofa Tatupu, Rey Rey or Cushing. If he's at the level they are now and "just getting there" by some peoples thoughts, maybe he has more upside heading into the pros.

He also weighed 166 pounds when he walked on, so you could say he literally had to grow into being a starter.

HoustonFrog
03-10-2009, 07:18 PM
I was going to start a similar thread a few days ago. Never got to it. I really dont care what position we draft as long as the value is good. I dont give a flying patooty about how much we have invested in a certain position or if the player plays a position of need. As long as the player can come in and contribute relative to where we take him then we are going to be improving our team.

Trade downs arent as easy as some people think. If we cant trade down and there is a no value at a need position it would be stupid to reach. At this stage in this teams development we CANNOT afford to reach. Its funny how people here decide certain positions are a weakness and start this nonsense of drafting each round based on biggest need first. There are only so many core players on this team. Schaub, Johnson, Mario, Ryans, Slaton and OD are the only ones who we should not be looking to upgrade.

In the first and second round we need someone who will come in and either start or contribute at a high level. If we accomplish that I will be happy no matter what position he plays.

Well said. I expressed similar sentiments the page before. You take the best bet, no matter position. From where we pick, LB may well be it because of depth in this draft. LBs also tend to fair well in adjusting to the game and adding a presence. But if the best guy is a WR/KR or a DT, take the best guy and stop reaching. "Potential" is a dirty word.

nunusguy
03-10-2009, 07:22 PM
Who cares if he couldn't start in place of Keith Rivers, Lofa Tatupu, Rey Rey or Cushing. If he's at the level they are now and "just getting there" by some peoples thoughts, maybe he has more upside heading into the pros.

I dunno but I think it's a fair and relevant question to ask why Matthews couldn't crack the starting lineup until his senior year while all of that time the other 2 USC LBs were good enough even as sophomores & juniors to play and start and star. In other words if not for the attrition of Trojan LBs by Matthews senior year would he still be watching from the sidelines ?

TimeKiller
03-10-2009, 07:32 PM
I dunno but I think it's a fair and relevant question to ask why Matthews couldn't crack the starting lineup until his senior year while all of that time the other 2 USC LBs were good enough even as sophomores & juniors to play and start and star. In other words if not for the attrition of Trojan LBs by Matthews senior year would he still be watching from the sidelines ?

I don't see how well they played 2 or 3 years ago is relevant in a discussion of how good they are now. I want the best guy now, preferably the best guy later too but that's all speculation.

nunusguy
03-10-2009, 07:48 PM
I don't see how well they played 2 or 3 years ago is relevant in a discussion of how good they are now. I want the best guy now, preferably the best guy later too but that's all speculation.
Let me put it another way, had the guys who'd been keeping Matthews off
of the field because they were better than him not graduated by his senior
year, perhaps Matthews would still be on the sidelines. In other words maybe
Matthews never really played his way into a starting job (never got better),
his competition at USC just graduated/completed their eligibility.

TimeKiller
03-10-2009, 07:58 PM
Let me put it another way, had the guys who'd been keeping Matthews off
of the field because they were better than him not graduated by his senior
year, perhaps Matthews would still be on the sidelines. In other words maybe
Matthews never really played his way into a starting job (never got better),
his competition at USC just graduated/completed their eligibility.

Well, I'm not much for college football outside of few games here and there and the draft but hasn't USC had one of the elite defenses in college football for a couple years? I'd say the competition was pretty much similar if so.

If that were the case though, I'd say a lot more people would be okeeday about getting him in the 5th or 6th round like the other USC LBer who's name I can't remember but is still good enough as a backup to be drafted in the NFL.

Ole Miss Texan
03-10-2009, 08:02 PM
I dunno but I think it's a fair and relevant question to ask why Matthews couldn't crack the starting lineup until his senior year while all of that time the other 2 USC LBs were good enough even as sophomores & juniors to play and start and star. In other words if not for the attrition of Trojan LBs by Matthews senior year would he still be watching from the sidelines ?
I'll agree to an extent. It is a question that should be asked (definitely not ignored) but I don't think it's that big of deal. Matthews pretty much played in every game for the last 4 years. Given, mostly on special teams but it's not like he was just handing out water on the sidelines. I also don't think he really fully developed into the athlete he is until recently. As ChampionTexan said about his weight. I knew he was light but not that small!

Mark Sanchez is being talked about as a top 10 pick. He only got a few starts his junior year because John David Booty got injured. Once Booty recoverd, Sanchez immediately became a back up again. He didn't become the full time starter until his senior season when Booty had graduated. How's this guy gonna be a top 10 pick if he couldn't even beat out John David Booty!?

threetoedpete
03-10-2009, 08:05 PM
BPA! (other than QB): that would include someone like:

Michael Oher
Michael Jenkins
Vontae Davis
J. Maclin
Everette Brown
Unger
Chris Wells
Moreno
http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2009/03/what_texans_starter_would_you_1.html


Michael Oher: Would love to have him....Start him at guard work him out to a tackle as he got settled in...Not a bad pick. But then....what do you do with Pitts who had arguably his best season in terms of getting out ahead of plays and making blocks on the second level ? Or do you start him at the other guard RG....a position he hasn't played before ? Also it is very bad draft philosophy to redraft positions in back to back drafts. Duane Brown is our Left tackle. As long as he is healthy, he's your starter.

Malcome Jenkins. Safest pick on the board. If he bust out as a CB he has the numbers which suggest he'll be a top five safety after three years. I believe however, they have their safeties. They have their corners. And they will draft one.....you won't see him on the Field as a starter....baring a series of injuries....meaning multiple and they're dang desperate....untill the sixth game....Why....that has been their pattern the last three years. They don't like rushing young DBs into the war. They would do the same thing with Jenkins.


Davis At the fifteen ?....nope.

Macklin....sorry old miss....nope . We have our number 2 & 3...True he could come in and immediately up grade the ball security on punt returns.....But he has marginal hands. And he hasn't a clue how to run the Denver WCO Tree. And...it would take him a couple of years to learn it well enough to displace Walter. Not being mean...that's just the way it is.....the staff has this year. They don't have a couple of seasons to groom Macklin. I believe a better long shot....if he made it to fifteen would be Harvin. You don't have to be an Einstein to learn how to pick up a NFL blitz.

Everett Brown....If he fell this far....great pick from my point of view. McClain is saying no way Jose on the DE in the first. Brown falls this far, Kinda hard to believe they wouldn't bite. Now whether he knows something...I believe he does in terms of the back up Rb....(he is going way out of his way not to say anything on RBs past the third and bust his relationship with Kubes), there is no doubt he loves Mathews @ the fifteen.

Chris Wells: NFW. I'll let you look up McClain's blog today and see the term he used for geranium heads who keep posting this crap.

I like Unger....McClain seems to think they may take one. C/G Type. Unger covers more position than my favorite Erick wood... so I couldn't argue with the pick. You would expect a trade back to the bottom of the first round if they had Unger Targeted.
You would think though the priority would be to drag this putrid defense out of the cellar, before they would draft a back up guy for the o-line.


Moreno would work....but you move Steve Slaton back to the third down back. and Kubiak has cut guys....but he's never screwed a guy who out preformed for him even beyond his realistic expectations. I don't believe a RB pick in the first two rounds... McClain thinks it's possible for one in the third....

Lastly it'd be nice to post this once again :d:

and mean it.


http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2009/03/what_texans_starter_would_you_1.html

mussop
03-10-2009, 08:13 PM
Michael Oher: Would love to have him....Start him at guard work him out to a tackle as he got settled in...Not a bad pick. But then....what do you do with Pitts who had arguably his best season in terms of getting out ahead of plays and making blocks on the second level ? Or do you start him at the other guard RG....a position he hasn't played before ? Also it is very bad draft philosophy to redraft positions in back to back drafts. Duane Brown is our Left tackle. As long as he is healthy, he's your starter.

Malcome Jenkins. Safest pick on the board. If he bust out as a CB he has the numbers which suggest he'll be a top five safety after three years. I believe however, they have their safeties. They have their corners. And they will draft one.....you won't see him on the Field as a starter....baring a series of injuries....meaning multiple and they're dang desperate....untill the sixth game....Why....that has been their pattern the last three years. They don't like young rushing DBs into the war. They would do the same thing with Jenkins.


Davis At the fifteen ?....nope.

Macklin....sorry old miss....nope . We have our number 2 & 3...True he could come in and immediately up grade the ball security on punt returns.....But he has marginal hands. And he hasn't a clue how to run the Denver WCO Tree. And...it would take him a couple of years to learn it well enough to displace Walter. Not being mean...that's just the way it is.....the staff has this year. They don't have a couple of seasons to groom Macklin. I believe a better long shot....if he made it to fifteen would be Harvin. You don't have to be an Einstein to learn how to pick up a NFL blitz.

Everett Brown....If he fell this far....great pick from my point of view. McClain is saying no way Jose on the DE in the first. Brown falls this far, Kinda hard to believe they wouldn't bite. Now whether he knows something...I believe he does in terms of the back up Rb....(he is going way out of his way not to say anything on RBs past the third and bust his relationship with Kubes), there is no doubt he loves Mathews @ the fifteen.

Chris Wells: NFW. I'll let you look up McClain's blog today and see the term he used for geranium heads who keep posting this crap.

I like Unger....McClain seems to think they may take one. C/G Type. Unger covers more position than my favorite Erick wood... so I couldn't argue with the pick. You would expect a trade back to the bottom of the first round if they had Unger Targeted.
You would think though the priority would be to drag this putrid defense out of the cellar, before they would draft a back up guy for the o-line.

Moreno would work....but you move Steve Slaton back to the third down back. and Kubiak has cut guys....but he's never screwed a guy who out preformed for him even beyond his realistic expectations. I don't believe a RB pick in the first two rounds... McClain thinks it's possible for one in the third....

Lastly it'd be nice to post this once again :d:

and mean it.


http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2009/03/what_texans_starter_would_you_1.html

You think Unger would be a backup? I dont!

nunusguy
03-10-2009, 08:23 PM
Mark Sanchez is being talked about as a top 10 pick. He only got a few starts his junior year because John David Booty got injured. Once Booty recoverd, Sanchez immediately became a back up again. He didn't become the full time starter until his senior season when Booty had graduated. How's this guy gonna be a top 10 pick if he couldn't even beat out John David Booty!?
Ok, that true. And perhaps Matt Cassel is an even better example in making your point ?

threetoedpete
03-10-2009, 08:32 PM
You think Unger would be a backup? I dont!

What has the pattern been the last three years at center...even when they were desperate at the center position...Remember the Atlanta game from a couple of years ago ? You know the one where Grady Jackson was throwing the starter around like a rag doll.....and who started the next game ? Same guy.

You've watched now for three seasons mussop ? They do things the way they do things. The only way Unger comes out of camp as the starter...no matter how good you're projecting he does....is if two vets are down and they have no alternative.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 09:40 PM
What has the pattern been the last three years at center...even when they were desperate at the center position...Remember the Atlanta game from a couple of years ago ? You know the one where Grady Jackson was throwing the starter around like a rag doll.....and who started the next game ? Same guy.

You've watched now for three seasons mussop ? They do things the way they do things. The only way Unger comes out of camp as the starter...no matter how good you're projecting he does....is if two vets are down and they have no alternative.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

How about Duane Brown be handed the starting job before minicamp?
Demeco Ryans was the starting MLB before the preseason of his rookie year even though they drafted him to play WLB.
Slaton went from a complimentary 3rd down back to the defacto starter in week 2. Now, apparently, the team doesn't even think he needs a backup.
Okoye was a day one starter as a rookie. Mario was a day one starter as a rookie. Dominique Barber made about 5 tackles on special teams last year and he's already been deemed the starting SS.

I can't imagine a more unfounded statement than the one you made above! Maybe I'm just missing the sarcasm? I read it a couple times in context and it seems like you really were trying to assert that this organization is slow to allow rookies the opportunity to start.

Specnatz
03-10-2009, 10:22 PM
Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

How about Duane Brown be handed the starting job before minicamp?
Demeco Ryans was the starting MLB before the preseason of his rookie year even though they drafted him to play WLB.
Slaton went from a complimentary 3rd down back to the defacto starter in week 2. Now, apparently, the team doesn't even think he needs a backup.
Okoye was a day one starter as a rookie. Mario was a day one starter as a rookie. Dominique Barber made about 5 tackles on special teams last year and he's already been deemed the starting SS.

I can't imagine a more unfounded statement than the one you made above! Maybe I'm just missing the sarcasm? I read it a couple times in context and it seems like you really were trying to assert that this organization is slow to allow rookies the opportunity to start.

Slaton was starting because of injuries and at the moment Moats is his backup. Oh and can we wait until after the draft to say this.

Where do you come up with some of this stuff?

The1ApplePie
03-10-2009, 10:23 PM
Why about LBs?

Because if you say anything about taking offensive players is either the:

1. I love Kevin Walter, he's the best ever!

or

2. We need defense (despite the fact that all the DEs are one-dimensional and the secondary in this draft is terrible)

Seriously people need to get off the defense. The Texans aren't going to be an elite defensive team. Take your Steel Curtain dreams elsewhere please.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 10:47 PM
Slaton was starting because of injuries and at the moment Moats is his backup. Oh and can we wait until after the draft to say this.

Where do you come up with some of this stuff?

I was responding to the guy that said if Unger was drafted he wouldn't see the field unless two or three other guys got injured, etc... He further suggested that since 2006, the organization consistently held back rookies and preferred to play lesser players that were veterans.

Slaton, when he became the starter, did so with other veterans available to carry the ball and he retained the job even when AGreen pretended to be healthy every 3rd week or so.

DocBar
03-10-2009, 10:59 PM
Other than D-Ryans, which LB has proven anything on the field? Nobody really

Adibi - Was basically hurt or sick since camp. He looked good once he hit the field, but failed to stay on it. Is he durable enough to play in the NFL?

Diles - Another LB that was decent, but failed to finish healthy. IMO, he's too slow. I think he could be quality depth, but not a starter.

Bentley - He is quality depth. No problems with Bentley at all.

Thompson - Until he can stay on the field, STer at best.

Coley - He impressed me playing 3rd and 4th stringers in the last pre-season game.

IMO, how can we not address LB? To me, the LB position was and has been one of the most inconsistant positions on D.

Here's a snippet of an Alan Burge article about the LB corps. I think the Texans roster is explained nicely in this article.



http://www.examiner.com/x-778-Houston-Texans-Examiner~y2009m3d7-Time-for-a-Texans-roster-checkup
IMHO, Adibi and Diles looked pretty damned good. Diles has a knack for big plays and Adibi was very solid. I don't think you can hang the "injury bug" on either one of them, as of yet. I certainly don't want to see the team reach like they did with TJ. I would rather see the BPA at 15 if we don't have an available player rated there picked if noone wants to trade with us.

I didn't get to watch all the games last year but the ones I did I was tired of constantly watching our LB corp tackling people 4 or 5 yards downfield. I don't know if it was the scheme or talent but I want a LB that will shed a block and crush the RB AT the LOS. having said that, I wouldn't complain if they went after a safety. We helped ourselves in FA on the DL now it is time to get the rest of it in better shape.
The argument about a RB being found later in the draft cheap seems to be pretty acurate. We don't NEED a feature back, just a complimentary one and that shouldn't be too hard to find later on. I wouldn't consider one at this point in the first 2 rounds. Too many needs in the defense. If our scheme was better, I think you would've seen that. The whole garbage of quick, light DL in a read and react scheme meant that the OL didn't have to double team much more than MW. That freed up OL to engage our LB's, who were usually not put in good position to make plays.
Why about LBs?

Because if you say anything about taking offensive players is either the:

1. I love Kevin Walter, he's the best ever!

or

2. We need defense (despite the fact that all the DEs are one-dimensional and the secondary in this draft is terrible)

Seriously people need to get off the defense. The Texans aren't going to be an elite defensive team. Take your Steel Curtain dreams elsewhere please. Just what team have you been watching? I saw some GREAT flashes from our D once we loosened up and started playing like we wanted to win a game. We can DEFINITELY improve our talent on D, but we're closer to a shut down D than you think. Don't overlook the monkey wrench that RS threw into our works. He squandered a good bit of talent with lousy schemes and game-planning.

Specnatz
03-10-2009, 11:00 PM
I was responding to the guy that said if Unger was drafted he wouldn't see the field unless two or three other guys got injured, etc... He further suggested that since 2006, the organization consistently held back rookies and preferred to play lesser players that were veterans.

Slaton, when he became the starter, did so with other veterans available to carry the ball and he retained the job even when AGreen pretended to be healthy every 3rd week or so.

I guess I did not understand your analogy.

DocBar
03-10-2009, 11:01 PM
I guess I did not understand your analogy. I'm with you on taht. Dale, please pass the bottle. You've had enough.

mussop
03-10-2009, 11:03 PM
Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

How about Duane Brown be handed the starting job before minicamp?
Demeco Ryans was the starting MLB before the preseason of his rookie year even though they drafted him to play WLB.
Slaton went from a complimentary 3rd down back to the defacto starter in week 2. Now, apparently, the team doesn't even think he needs a backup.
Okoye was a day one starter as a rookie. Mario was a day one starter as a rookie. Dominique Barber made about 5 tackles on special teams last year and he's already been deemed the starting SS.

I can't imagine a more unfounded statement than the one you made above! Maybe I'm just missing the sarcasm? I read it a couple times in context and it seems like you really were trying to assert that this organization is slow to allow rookies the opportunity to start.

Thanks for saving me the time.

painekiller
03-10-2009, 11:06 PM
I dunno but I think it's a fair and relevant question to ask why Matthews couldn't crack the starting lineup until his senior year while all of that time the other 2 USC LBs were good enough even as sophomores & juniors to play and start and star. In other words if not for the attrition of Trojan LBs by Matthews senior year would he still be watching from the sidelines ?

In college just like the NFL, there is first round bias, in college it's more of blue chip bias, but it is the same thing. Matthews was unrecruited coming out of HS due to his size. He worked his ass off and got lucky with a growth spurt. His own father, his HS defensive coordinator, did not think he was going to play college ball.

The kid played his way to a scholarship and into the team making room for him to play. Maiavi the player he displaced is a NFL quality player also. USC has depth, a lot of depth. The Pats just traded a QB that never started a game for USC yet he is now an NFL starter.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 11:14 PM
I think as fans we've become so accustomed to drafting for the very near future. Even if the player is a project, the team has been in a position to need his service and the position to patiently wait for him to develop on the field-- after all, we have had very little quality depth and haven't threatened playoffs yet.

This year is quite different. Simply by filling out some roster spots with street FAs, the current roster is good enough to compete with the top teams in the league. We are, right now, a playoff contender. Other than potentially SS, every other current starter on the team could also start on some of last year's playoff teams... The point being, we don't have the kind of glaring needs going into the draft that we have in the past...

To clarify, I'm not saying the team doesn't need to improve. Clearly, the defense has to get a whole lot better. We've got to improve in the red zone and decrease turnovers, etc... I get all that. However, the answer isn't as simple as it was 2 years ago. I can't look at the roster and go, "yuck, that guy stinks, and so does this one, etc..." So, if we want to get better in the red zone and if that's a top priority, what can we do to achieve that? Well, if we want to do it through the draft and this season, I think the only realistic options are to add a powerful rookie RB or two and perhaps to take an elite center/guard in the 1st or 2nd round. That means that we're going to spend a quality pick at a position where we just found a probowl quality player last year (Slaton). And, it means we spend a first day pick in order to replace CMyers, who started for us at center all season and spear-headed the most successful offense the team has ever had. That's kind of weird. If we trade down in round one, we're going to end up with 8 picks in the first 5 rounds of a deep draft. That's a lot of players and many of them will be strictly backups for at least a year or two.

It's a great problem or change to finally be experiencing. Our 1st round pick is no longer, IMO, about finding a guy to plug into a spot right away and hope he turns into a 9 year starter. Instead, it's our premium opportunity to grab a talented player and we need to make sure we are getting the guy that is most likely to be great for us in years 3, 4, 5, etc... Because now, we aren't picking 1st and we aren't trying to become respectable. Now, we're trying to go from being pretty decent to great. So, back to the LB issue. Bentley, Adibi, Thompson, Diles all those guys can be part of a decent LB corp and probably a pretty good defense. Whomever we take in the 1st and 2nd rounds should be players that help us become great. Otherwise, it's just depth. I'll take the guy that will make us great in 2 years even if he adds nothing this year. Why? because these guys are already pretty good.

All that being said, if the Texans think Cushing or Matthews will be great and/or make our defense really good this year, next year, or in 2011 then take him!!- but for God's sakes, please get Kasey Studdard off the roster!! because when I look at our roster (the guys likely to make the 53 man), there is a very short list of players that if they were asked to make significant contributions, would ensure this team doesn't become a very good one:

Kasey Studdard
Brandon Harrison
Ryan Moats
Cecil Sapp



Thanks for your patience. I think I'm even tired of listenning to myself on this issue. And, you can ask anyone that knows me, that rarely happens.

DocBar
03-10-2009, 11:17 PM
Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

How about Duane Brown be handed the starting job before minicamp?
Demeco Ryans was the starting MLB before the preseason of his rookie year even though they drafted him to play WLB.
Slaton went from a complimentary 3rd down back to the defacto starter in week 2. Now, apparently, the team doesn't even think he needs a backup.
Okoye was a day one starter as a rookie. Mario was a day one starter as a rookie. Dominique Barber made about 5 tackles on special teams last year and he's already been deemed the starting SS.

I can't imagine a more unfounded statement than the one you made above! Maybe I'm just missing the sarcasm? I read it a couple times in context and it seems like you really were trying to assert that this organization is slow to allow rookies the opportunity to start.
I come up with this by the fact that our coaching staff plays, WITH exceptions, the best player AT a particular position. You make this statement like none of these guys contributed a thing. DR is one of the better MLB's in the league, even though he was drafted as an OLB. Injury and ability won him a starting job AND a Pro Bowl berth. I don't see the arguement.
Slaton; PLEASE!!!!!! Why are you bitching about finding, possibly, a franchise back in a leter round? He has almost as many yds in his rookie season as " The Second Coming" has in 3 yrs.
I suspect that Kubes and Gibbs saw something in Brown that was better than anything they saw in our othe LT's. He had a BRUTAL schedule and did a LOT better than anyone not in his family thought he would.
Okoye had a STELLAR rookie year. Why would we think he wouldn't make the sophomore jump? Chalk that up to bad luck with an injury. It sure sounds like he's responding like a pro in his interviews. Time will tell if that's accurate.

dalemurphy
03-10-2009, 11:23 PM
I come up with this by the fact that our coaching staff plays, WITH exceptions, the best player AT a particular position. You make this statement like none of these guys contributed a thing. DR is one of the better MLB's in the league, even though he was drafted as an OLB. Injury and ability won him a starting job AND a Pro Bowl berth. I don't see the arguement.
Slaton; PLEASE!!!!!! Why are you bitching about finding, possibly, a franchise back in a leter round? He has almost as many yds in his rookie season as " The Second Coming" has in 3 yrs.
I suspect that Kubes and Gibbs saw something in Brown that was better than anything they saw in our othe LT's. He had a BRUTAL schedule and did a LOT better than anyone not in his family thought he would.
Okoye had a STELLAR rookie year. Why would we think he wouldn't make the sophomore jump? Chalk that up to bad luck with an injury. It sure sounds like he's responding like a pro in his interviews. Time will tell if that's accurate.


I think we're misunderstanding each other. I was only trying to point out that Smithiak will play rookies if they think it will improve the team. I was citing examples to counter someone's argument that if Unger was drafted, then Smithiak wouldn't play him until a ton of guys got injured.

Goldensilence
03-11-2009, 12:13 AM
DM don't think anyone is disagreeing with your assesment up and down the line. I think the point is there are...ya know several other rounds to go after the first to help fill replacements for guys like Studdard.

Jackie Chiles
03-11-2009, 01:37 AM
Why about LBs?

Because if you say anything about taking offensive players is either the:

1. I love Kevin Walter, he's the best ever!

or

2. We need defense (despite the fact that all the DEs are one-dimensional and the secondary in this draft is terrible)

Seriously people need to get off the defense. The Texans aren't going to be an elite defensive team. Take your Steel Curtain dreams elsewhere please.

Just because you think Kevin Walter is the worst WR in the NFL doesn't mean that everyone else thinks he is the best. Yay for hyperbole.

beerlover
03-11-2009, 02:45 AM
texans as a team w/Mario ranked 27th in sacks (25) just one ahead of two teams Buffalo & Washington (24). the three worst teams in the sack department are the Bengals & Browns tied w/17 then KC @ 10. think they have second thoughts sending Allen packing? now they are going to probably draft Curry if still there to address this need, FROM THE LB POSITION.

Did I mention the Texans did not record a safety?

23rd against the run
17th against the pass
22nd in yards allowed
27th in points allowed

individually DeMeco ranked 20th in the league with 112 tackles
next Diles (66) ranked 77th
Bentley (57) ranked 91st
ex-Texan Morlan Greenwood (45) 104th
Xavier Adibi (35) 121st

how about interceptions? Diles 1 matched his sack total & thats it. so your saying this is a pretty decent group of LB's & "Now, we're trying to go from being pretty decent to great"? not so fast, my wanna cut Casey Studdard Texan, NOT WITHOUT A FIRM COMMITMENT IN THIS DRAFT TO ABOVE AVERAGE LB CLASS AS A WHOLE.

just don't understand how you can't understand or think I don't understand or ah screw it :beerfunnel:

MESS WITH THE BULL GET THE HORN

barrett
03-11-2009, 03:40 AM
i would like to draft beer.

TimeKiller
03-11-2009, 07:26 AM
i would like 6 draft beers.

there you go....

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2009, 09:02 AM
i would like to draft beer.

Welcome to the 2009 NFL Draught.

HOU-TEX
03-11-2009, 09:08 AM
IMHO, Adibi and Diles looked pretty damned good. Diles has a knack for big plays and Adibi was very solid. I don't think you can hang the "injury bug" on either one of them, as of yet. I certainly don't want to see the team reach like they did with TJ. I would rather see the BPA at 15 if we don't have an available player rated there picked if noone wants to trade with us.


OK, let's leave injuries out of it. Adibi can, and likely will, be the Will starter if he remained healthy.

Diles OTOH is not quick enough to be a good NFL LB. It's been mentioned by several other posters than he doesn't have the sideline to sideline speed. And IMO, he's not very good at all in coverage. Couple his poor coverage with D-Ryans average coverage abilities and you slot WR, TE's and RB's ripping us a new one.

This thread has run it's course, IMO. Talk about beating a dead horse, geez. The original poster starts a new thread asking a question, but refuses to absorb other opinions given. He'd rather argue it and call people ignorant for not sharing his beliefs. So be it.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2009, 09:11 AM
edit: posted in the wrong thread

I havn't called for a LB in quite a while... my phone's broken (badoom ch) :tiphat:

Polo
03-11-2009, 09:13 AM
texans as a team w/Mario ranked 27th in sacks (25) just one ahead of two teams Buffalo & Washington (24). the three worst teams in the sack department are the Bengals & Browns tied w/17 then KC @ 10. think they have second thoughts sending Allen packing? now they are going to probably draft Curry if still there to address this need, FROM THE LB POSITION.

Did I mention the Texans did not record a safety?

23rd against the run
17th against the pass
22nd in yards allowed
27th in points allowed

individually DeMeco ranked 20th in the league with 112 tackles
next Diles (66) ranked 77th
Bentley (57) ranked 91st
ex-Texan Morlan Greenwood (45) 104th
Xavier Adibi (35) 121st

how about interceptions? Diles 1 matched his sack total & thats it. so your saying this is a pretty decent group of LB's & "Now, we're trying to go from being pretty decent to great"? not so fast, my wanna cut Casey Studdard Texan, NOT WITHOUT A FIRM COMMITMENT IN THIS DRAFT TO ABOVE AVERAGE LB CLASS AS A WHOLE.

just don't understand how you can't understand or think I don't understand or ah screw it :beerfunnel:

MESS WITH THE BULL GET THE HORN


Yes...I'm saying it's a pretty good group of LB's. No it's not great, but you could do that little trick you just did with every level of the defense, so I'm not really moved by the lack of stats...Especially since Adibi only played a little towards the end, and Diles got hurt halfway through...

That said, who in the secondary are you sold on? Who besides MArio on the D-line?

I wouldn't be mad if they drafted a player at any of the levels on defense, but I don't think you can build an argument to say that LB is an obviously glaring need compared to the rest of the defense based on stats.

Texans_Chick
03-11-2009, 09:21 AM
For those who are interested, I just put up a blog post that looks at a lot of these issues on a macro level, trying to put my arms around it:

Houston Texans defense: Looking at sunshine and storm clouds (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/03/houston_texans_defense_sunshin.html)

With bonus random picture and references to bleeding eyeballs.

I invite comments over there because I'm trying to spread TT thinking over at the Chron. Not that we are all in lockstep in our thinking, but because we are talking about these issues at all.

:texflag:

Goldensilence
03-11-2009, 11:24 AM
edit: posted in the wrong thread

I havn't called for a LB in quite a while... my phone's broken (badoom ch) :tiphat:

Wait didn't you call to draft some Linebacker from Ole Miss? Patrick something?

BigBull17
03-11-2009, 11:30 AM
Yes...I'm saying it's a pretty good group of LB's. No it's not great, but you could do that little trick you just did with every level of the defense, so I'm not really moved by the lack of stats...Especially since Adibi only played a little towards the end, and Diles got hurt halfway through...

That said, who in the secondary are you sold on? Who besides MArio on the D-line?

I wouldn't be mad if they drafted a player at any of the levels on defense, but I don't think you can build an argument to say that LB is an obviously glaring need compared to the rest of the defense based on stats.

So, 2 sacks and 1 pick out ot the LB's and you're ok with it? We need an overhaul everywhere, but thats almost legendarily bad. I can't look it up right now, but I bet our tackle for loss numbers are just as putrid. Even if you hardly ever blitz, you should accedentally get more than 2 sacks from your LB's.

BigBull17
03-11-2009, 11:31 AM
Wait didn't you call to draft some Linebacker from Ole Miss? Patrick something?

I was all over him, and we *********up and took a project 19 year old DT. That may go down as our worst draft blunder ever.

Goldensilence
03-11-2009, 11:36 AM
I was all over him, and we *********up and took a project 19 year old DT. That may go down as our worst draft blunder ever.

I really don't think anything can top trading up with an in division rival to get Jason Babin.

BigBull17
03-11-2009, 11:44 AM
I really don't think anything can top trading up with an in division rival to get Jason Babin.

Maybe, but Willis is SOOOO good. While Okoye is slowly fading away. Who did the Titans get with those picks? I dont remember.

beerlover
03-11-2009, 11:55 AM
Yes...I'm saying it's a pretty good group of LB's. No it's not great, but you could do that little trick you just did with every level of the defense, so I'm not really moved by the lack of stats...Especially since Adibi only played a little towards the end, and Diles got hurt halfway through...

That said, who in the secondary are you sold on? Who besides MArio on the D-line?

I wouldn't be mad if they drafted a player at any of the levels on defense, but I don't think you can build an argument to say that LB is an obviously glaring need compared to the rest of the defense based on stats.

Just a shower of numbers that reflect production, to be fair sample size is too small to make absoulte certain projections. Total production is down for the group thats just a fact so it's prudent & wise to anticapate Texans will address this area via the draft, with above average class @ need position available. Infusion of talent is critical going forward.

I'm bullish on the Texans secondary its young & talented. could they use another playmaker sure, I've stated several guys coming out to take a look @ but Rick Smith has done a nice job back filling & replenishing the secondary both in free agency & the draft. The DL goes without saying the Texans have invested a ton of #1's & money their way. this is probably where scheme & coaching can play a bigger part than anywhere given the Texans do have talent across the board. take a tip from the OL improvement with Gibbs & what affect he's had with basiclly adding one first rd. draft pick.

Its simple, plain English :heh:

MESS WITH THE BULL GET THE HORN

Goldensilence
03-11-2009, 12:07 PM
Maybe, but Willis is SOOOO good. While Okoye is slowly fading away. Who did the Titans get with those picks? I dont remember.

The Titans didn't really get anyone noteworthy but we didn't get a chance to with those picks either.

This year is a make or break year for Okoye, but good news I think he's going to be in a scheme that is much better suited to his strengths.If Bush's scheme really does mean we're going to go to a "aggressive" scheme I think the way Kollar's Line typically plays it could be a lot more disruptive.

BigBull17
03-11-2009, 01:55 PM
The Titans didn't really get anyone noteworthy but we didn't get a chance to with those picks either.

This year is a make or break year for Okoye, but good news I think he's going to be in a scheme that is much better suited to his strengths.If Bush's scheme really does mean we're going to go to a "aggressive" scheme I think the way Kollar's Line typically plays it could be a lot more disruptive.

Ok, Okoye is the 2nd worst draft move. Thats still bad. If he picks it up and plays like he did the 1st half of his 1st year, we'll be ok. I just hope we're more agressive. I'd rathe be agressive and get burnt than be unagressive and consistantly driven on.

Hooston Texan
03-11-2009, 02:47 PM
The Titans didn't really get anyone noteworthy but we didn't get a chance to with those picks either.


Actually, the Titans did get some good players out of the Babin trade. We gave up our 2, 3 and 4 in addition to switching our 5th round picks. The 3rd round pick netted them DT Randy Starks whom Bill Parcells saw fit to sign to a $20 million contract in the 2008 offseason. With our 5th round pick, they got G Jacob Bell who signed a FA deal last offseason with the Rams worth in excess of $30 million and has been a starter pretty much his whole career.

The other two picks were TE Ben Troupe (a couple decent years) and Bo Schobel (not much on him).

We traded the 5th rounder we got in the pick switch to the Jaguars for a 6th and a 7th round pick. Those two picks became Jammal Lord and Raheem Orr. So after we selected Dunta at #10, we basically traded our entire draft for a few magic beans.

Of course, that may only be the second-worst trade of the Texans' miserable history: Philip Bucahnon for a 2 and a 3 remains a towering achievement of stupid that will be nearly impossible to top.

badboy
03-11-2009, 04:22 PM
I was reading the MB as I often do and just wanted to thank each of you for your thoughtful and insightful ideas. I have made both Mr Smith and Mr. Kubiak aware of what you want us to do and believe me when I say I have told them to do exactly what you want. Any ideas about how much I should lower ticket prices and concession stand costs can be adressed on another thread if someone will be so kind as to start.

Sincerely, Robert (BOB) McNair

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2009, 04:34 PM
P-Dub Pat Willis. Safest pick in the draft, guaranteed stud, pro bowler and DROY. 4 for 4... that's batting 100%. I'm still picking tar and feathers off of me for wanting him at MLB and suggesting moving Demeco outside.

Amobi is going to be fine though. He was a potential pick and he's only improved each year here. He'll develop into a good pro. Maybe not quite Willis talent, but if he becomes a great DT which I think he can... it will really do our team wonders.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2009, 04:36 PM
Its simple, plain English :heh:
Is there a pun in there somewhere or am I reading too much into it!? Where's Curly and Moe!?

The1ApplePie
03-11-2009, 09:41 PM
Just because you think Kevin Walter is the worst WR in the NFL doesn't mean that everyone else thinks he is the best. Yay for hyperbole.

The weakest starter on the offense not the worst WR in the NFL. I simply think replacing him with a stud like Maclin and moving him to the slot makes the team better than some one-dimensional lineman in the first

Jackie Chiles
03-11-2009, 10:02 PM
The weakest starter on the offense not the worst WR in the NFL. I simply think replacing him with a stud like Maclin and moving him to the slot makes the team better than some one-dimensional lineman in the first

You missed the point of my post about hyperbole. You exaggerated about everyone being totally in love with Walter and I exaggerated about how you thought he must be the worst WR in the NFL.

As for Walter, he isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread but you are vastly underrating him IMO. Maclin is a great prospect and I won't be terribly upset if we take him but I don't think he adds as much to the team as a similar talent on defense would. If you think that Maclin will be some great deep threat that Walter isn't I believe you are mistaken.

Here is a snippet from a recent KC Joyner chat over at ESPN:

Zaneidria (houston,texas): I've been thinking about T.O and where he'll go since he got released late last night. Do you think the Houston Texans will be a great fit for him? Andre will benefit from him and Matt will find him, the team have shown promise and i think he's just what they need to make to the playoffs.

SportsNation KC Joyner: Houston doesn't need him. Kevin Walter ranked 2nd in vertical YPA among WRs last year and they also have Anderson. Add in a quality receiving TE like Owen Daniels and Schaub has all of the receiving targets he needs.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=25322

GP
03-11-2009, 11:59 PM
Actually, the Titans did get some good players out of the Babin trade. We gave up our 2, 3 and 4 in addition to switching our 5th round picks. The 3rd round pick netted them DT Randy Starks whom Bill Parcells saw fit to sign to a $20 million contract in the 2008 offseason. With our 5th round pick, they got G Jacob Bell who signed a FA deal last offseason with the Rams worth in excess of $30 million and has been a starter pretty much his whole career.

The other two picks were TE Ben Troupe (a couple decent years) and Bo Schobel (not much on him).

We traded the 5th rounder we got in the pick switch to the Jaguars for a 6th and a 7th round pick. Those two picks became Jammal Lord and Raheem Orr. So after we selected Dunta at #10, we basically traded our entire draft for a few magic beans.

Of course, that may only be the second-worst trade of the Texans' miserable history: Philip Bucahnon for a 2 and a 3 remains a towering achievement of stupid that will be nearly impossible to top.

That pretty much sums up the reasons as to why Capers and Casserly were able to reduce the Texans to a 2-14 team.

mexican_texan
03-12-2009, 12:05 AM
Its simple, plain English :heh:

MESS WITH THE BULL GET THE HORN

Larry?

beerlover
03-12-2009, 02:34 AM
Larry?

winner winner chicken dinner :chicken:

http://blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com/sportsbeacon/Larry%20English3.jpg

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2009-03-11-sw-nfl-draft-countdown-linebackers_N.htm

threetoedpete
03-12-2009, 02:41 AM
Well Dale....they were pretty devoid of talent when they got here. So far what I've seen is they only start rookies when they are basically desperate. I'd call Duane, coupled with Matt's injury in '07, a pretty desperate act last year. wouldn't You ?

Trade down and select someone who everyone else declared a reach ?

Board howled all summer. And what did they do ?

.....they rotated Salam in every third series so he wouldn't run out of Gas with the sixteen game schedule.

Funny you should site Steve Slaton....what I recall last year....is them going back to Green over and over and over again. It wasn't until they were totally convinced that he, Green was a train wreck that they basically gave up and IRed the guy. And then, and only then Slaton became the Texans lead back. And exactly when was that Dale Murphy ?...enlighten us. Damn sure wasn't in September. Or October.

They've got time and money invested in these DBs. And until two of them get killed or something....no matter who they select or where they select them those are your starters come September. Rookies, they'll start at the bottom and have to work their way up. Haven't seen Molden Yet. Out of your own post...Harrison or Barber....every time they talk about them...they love them. I got it ...you don't like it.

Get over it.

They sink or swim with who they have in the back four. Even if they draft some one in the second...move down in the first....their pattern has been you won't see the guy start until October.

Finally, even though I know you won't let it go....Take out the tweener guys in this class of Linebackers....and it's a very weak class. Going to be a heck of a lot easier finding a sure rookie starter in the first than it will be on the second day. Now DB on the other hand.....their numbers suggest you're just as likely to hit a prospect in the fourth as you are in the first. there's not much difference between one or fifteen. and my money says there isn't one in the pile...corner or safety, which will beat out anyone currently on the roster by November. Much less out of summer camp. I call that there thingy a pattern.

El Tejano
03-12-2009, 08:32 AM
Of course, that may only be the second-worst trade of the Texans' miserable history: Philip Bucahnon for a 2 and a 3 remains a towering achievement of stupid that will be nearly impossible to top.

What made that deal even more dumb was releasing Aaron Glenn right after. He had at least one more good year in him.

GP
03-12-2009, 11:02 AM
Well Dale....they were pretty devoid of talent when they got here. So far what I've seen is they only start rookies when they are basically desperate. I'd call Duane, coupled with Matt's injury in '07, a pretty desperate act last year. wouldn't You ?

Trade down and select someone who everyone else declared a reach ?

Board howled all summer. And what did they do ?

.....they rotated Salam in every third series so he wouldn't run out of Gas with the sixteen game schedule.

Funny you should site Steve Slaton....what I recall last year....is them going back to Green over and over and over again. It wasn't until they were totally convinced that he, Green was a train wreck that they basically gave up and IRed the guy. And then, and only then Slaton became the Texans lead back. And exactly when was that Dale Murphy ?...enlighten us. Damn sure wasn't in September. Or October.

They've got time and money invested in these DBs. And until two of them get killed or something....no matter who they select or where they select them those are your starters come September. Rookies, they'll start at the bottom and have to work their way up. Haven't seen Molden Yet. Out of your own post...Harrison or Barber....every time they talk about them...they love them. I got it ...you don't like it.

Get over it.

They sink or swim with who they have in the back four. Even if they draft some one in the second...move down in the first....their pattern has been you won't see the guy start until October.

Finally, even though I know you won't let it go....Take out the tweener guys in this class of Linebackers....and it's a very weak class. Going to be a heck of a lot easier finding a sure rookie starter in the first than it will be on the second day. Now DB on the other hand.....their numbers suggest you're just as likely to hit a prospect in the fourth as you are in the first. there's not much difference between one or fifteen. and my money says there isn't one in the pile...corner or safety, which will beat out anyone currently on the roster by November. Much less out of summer camp. I call that there thingy a pattern.

I am somewhat agreeing with what you're saying.

I am puzzled over exactly which players in our secondary are the real secondary guys. I can't even name all of them without looking at a roster list, and that's because they are not on the field more than a few times per game.

I hear we have some guy named Molden, and some guy named Barber, and then there's a few more I think. Are these invisible players supposed to be the heirs of the secondary spots taken by Reeves, Faggins and possibly Dunta if he doesn't pan out this year? If so, the coaches are doing a poor job of getting them ready. It looks like a fire drill out there to me.

Our secondary has the feel of gym class when you have the majority of students doing the drills, working out, and then there's that group of pranksters over in the corner under the bleachers...horsing around and nobody knows where they are at.

In short: Who ARE these players, and what's the freaking PLAN for them? because right now it looks pretty puzzling to me. Outside of Eugene Wilson, I'm not cool with any of our DBs in terms of being skilled and stable at their position. Anybody feel the same?

And like Pete said: This draft class is scary, but not for the right reasons.

Texecutioner
03-12-2009, 11:16 AM
I am somewhat agreeing with what you're saying.

I am puzzled over exactly which players in our secondary are the real secondary guys. I can't even name all of them without looking at a roster list, and that's because they are not on the field more than a few times per game.

I hear we have some guy named Molden, and some guy named Barber, and then there's a few more I think. Are these invisible players supposed to be the heirs of the secondary spots taken by Reeves, Faggins and possibly Dunta if he doesn't pan out this year? If so, the coaches are doing a poor job of getting them ready. It looks like a fire drill out there to me.

Our secondary has the feel of gym class when you have the majority of students doing the drills, working out, and then there's that group of pranksters over in the corner under the bleachers...horsing around and nobody knows where they are at.

In short: Who ARE these players, and what's the freaking PLAN for them? because right now it looks pretty puzzling to me. Outside of Eugene Wilson, I'm not cool with any of our DBs in terms of being skilled and stable at their position. Anybody feel the same?

And like Pete said: This draft class is scary, but not for the right reasons.

Agree with you and ThreetoedPete GP. Our secondary is still pretty horrible. I've got no confidence that Molden or Barber will ever be anything special for us. WHy would I? What have they done or shown, or better yet what has the coaching staff allowed them to show?

That is one of the reasons why I just don't like Rick Smith. I may be in the minority on that, but I'm a firm believer that you have to improve your team every year in free agency as well as the draft. You don't have to act like Snyder or anything, but every off season there are players that we could afford that aren't guys breaking the bank or anything and we don't grab squat for our secondary except for guys like Buchanon (Casserly, I know) and Reeves whom I said wasn't going to do jack for us. There are some guys out there that could help us out next season that wouldn't cost all that much.

Historyhorn
03-12-2009, 02:01 PM
Put me down as thinking we should go some other direction besides LB with our first round pick. I hear the arguments that picking 15th puts us in a bad spot, where we could be reaching for a player that could be had at the end of the round instead of one that is truly worthy of a number 15 slot.

I just don't like the pick of a LB in round one simply because it is one of the least valuable positions on the field unless you run a 3-4 defense. In a 3-4, the pass rushing OLB becomes one of the most valuable.

In today's NFL, LB and RB seem to be the spots where you can throw players at the position and be OK. There are some teams that have stud LB and they are difference makers, but most of the time, those other teams also had stud DL to play in front of the LB.

On most downs in the current NFL incarnation, you only have 2 LB's on the field when you run a 4-3 anyway. One guy is usually on the bench in favor of a nickel or dime package unless it is clearly a running situation. For that reason, most teams put a premium on having lots of good to serviceable DB's and a stud DL in order to build a dominant defense.

My vote goes to best DL or DB available in the first round. I would rate the most valuable positions in a 4-3 defense as DE, CB, DT, S, LB. My gut says to draft another DL in the first round and find another CB somewhere either later in the draft or through trade/FA.

Go Texans

BigBull17
03-12-2009, 02:16 PM
Put me down as thinking we should go some other direction besides LB with our first round pick. I hear the arguments that picking 15th puts us in a bad spot, where we could be reaching for a player that could be had at the end of the round instead of one that is truly worthy of a number 15 slot.

I just don't like the pick of a LB in round one simply because it is one of the least valuable positions on the field unless you run a 3-4 defense. In a 3-4, the pass rushing OLB becomes one of the most valuable.

In today's NFL, LB and RB seem to be the spots where you can throw players at the position and be OK. There are some teams that have stud LB and they are difference makers, but most of the time, those other teams also had stud DL to play in front of the LB.

On most downs in the current NFL incarnation, you only have 2 LB's on the field when you run a 4-3 anyway. One guy is usually on the bench in favor of a nickel or dime package unless it is clearly a running situation. For that reason, most teams put a premium on having lots of good to serviceable DB's and a stud DL in order to build a dominant defense.

My vote goes to best DL or DB available in the first round. I would rate the most valuable positions in a 4-3 defense as DE, CB, DT, S, LB. My gut says to draft another DL in the first round and find another CB somewhere either later in the draft or through trade/FA.

Go Texans

Dallas Clark loves you. Thats why Tight Ends run uncovered up and down the field on us. Thats why teams average 4-6 yards a carry on the ground. Thats why we can't stop a 4th and 1. Thats why we hit a guy in the backfield and he gains 3 yards. Every position is important. Good linebackers make plays and are invaluable.

HOU-TEX
03-12-2009, 02:18 PM
Put me down as thinking we should go some other direction besides LB with our first round pick. I hear the arguments that picking 15th puts us in a bad spot, where we could be reaching for a player that could be had at the end of the round instead of one that is truly worthy of a number 15 slot.

I just don't like the pick of a LB in round one simply because it is one of the least valuable positions on the field unless you run a 3-4 defense. In a 3-4, the pass rushing OLB becomes one of the most valuable.

In today's NFL, LB and RB seem to be the spots where you can throw players at the position and be OK. There are some teams that have stud LB and they are difference makers, but most of the time, those other teams also had stud DL to play in front of the LB.

On most downs in the current NFL incarnation, you only have 2 LB's on the field when you run a 4-3 anyway. One guy is usually on the bench in favor of a nickel or dime package unless it is clearly a running situation. For that reason, most teams put a premium on having lots of good to serviceable DB's and a stud DL in order to build a dominant defense.

My vote goes to best DL or DB available in the first round. I would rate the most valuable positions in a 4-3 defense as DE, CB, DT, S, LB. My gut says to draft another DL in the first round and find another CB somewhere either later in the draft or through trade/FA.

Go Texans

Sorry, but this is crazy thinking. Crazy I tell ya

TheRealJoker
03-12-2009, 05:16 PM
That is one of the reasons why I just don't like Rick Smith. I may be in the minority on that, but I'm a firm believer that you have to improve your team every year in free agency as well as the draft. You don't have to act like Snyder or anything, but every off season there are players that we could afford that aren't guys breaking the bank or anything and we don't grab squat for our secondary except for guys like Buchanon (Casserly, I know) and Reeves whom I said wasn't going to do jack for us. There are some guys out there that could help us out next season that wouldn't cost all that much.

What do you call resigning Eugene Wilson and Nick Ferguson? Drafting Bennett, Molden, Barber, and Harrison? Signing and then resigning Will Demps (though it didn't pan out)? Jacques Reeves, like it or not, was our most consistent CB last season (another Rick Smith signing).

He has made moves in FA and the draft to improve the secondary. Sure he hasn't broken the bank by signing Asante Samuel or drafting a DB in the 1st, but he certainly hasn't been ignoring the position.

The only real argument you could make is him passing on Darelle Revis by drafting Okoye. For all intensive purposes however, most people would've drafted Willis over Okoye and Revis hindsight being 20/20. We made that pick to give Mario help, the jury is still out on Amobiwan but he's gonna need to make a big jump this year.

Historyhorn
03-12-2009, 05:24 PM
Dallas Clark loves you. Thats why Tight Ends run uncovered up and down the field on us. Thats why teams average 4-6 yards a carry on the ground. Thats why we can't stop a 4th and 1. Thats why we hit a guy in the backfield and he gains 3 yards. Every position is important. Good linebackers make plays and are invaluable.

More quality DB's on the field mean Dallas Clark doesn't run free on patterns because you have a better defensive coverage. A dominant DL means you don't give up 4 and 1. A dominant DL means you stuff the running game. Ask Ray Lewis....arguably one of the best LBers in the game how hard it is when you don't have a quality DL in front of you to fill gaps and take on blocks. Unless I run a 3-4, I'll take a dominant DL and defensive backfield any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I would recommend reading the book "Blind Side" by Micheal Lewis. The current NFL game is changing the way we value positions and players. It just so happens the Texans are following the script for winning in the changed NFL to a tee. Pass rushing DE, strong interior DL, Left OT, ????? A little hint....LB doesn't come next in value.

Take a look at what Free Agents command on open market. LB is way down on the list on salaries commanded in FA when looked at as a positional group.....unless it is a pass rushing OLB which equals pass rushing DE in the 4-3.

Go Texans

TimeKiller
03-12-2009, 06:28 PM
On most downs in the current NFL incarnation, you only have 2 LB's on the field when you run a 4-3 anyway. One guy is usually on the bench in favor of a nickel or dime package unless it is clearly a running situation. For that reason, most teams put a premium on having lots of good to serviceable DB's and a stud DL in order to build a dominant defense.

My vote goes to best DL or DB available in the first round. I would rate the most valuable positions in a 4-3 defense as DE, CB, DT, S, LB. My gut says to draft another DL in the first round and find another CB somewhere either later in the draft or through trade/FA.

Go Texans
I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just trying to pick your brain a little...

Let's call Demeco Ryans, a 2nd round pick, the 1st LB in a nickel package. Who is next, Adibi? Would any of the USC LBers or maybe Laraunitis beat him out for nickel responsibilities? Maybe 60/40 for Adibi just because he has a slight experience advantage.

Now who do we rotate in the interior DL? Okoye probably takes a lion share of snaps, TJ gets his, Bulman, Robinson looked pretty darn solid, ASmith occasionally...a guy like Jerry probably doesn't come in and set the world on fire year 1 and our depth here has shown itself to be pretty solid without a nice free agent signing and in all probability another draft pick DE. God forbid either of our other 2 1st round DT's show themselves worthy of their pick. We've also got Mario, a new DB coach, a new DC and scheme that apparently is more fitting to the personnel we've already accumulated. Point is Jerry doesn't add what we don't have where a stud DB dropping or a LB does. Or at least attempts to.

Also I think it's fishy you would say most downs we only have 2 LB's but are so opposed to the selection of one. Especially a guy who has a shot at making a difference from the other spot. Anyway I'd be okay with Jenkins or Davis if they fell. IF.

Ole Miss Texan
03-12-2009, 08:41 PM
I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just trying to pick your brain a little...

Let's call Demeco Ryans, a 2nd round pick, the 1st LB in a nickel package. Who is next, Adibi? Would any of the USC LBers or maybe Laraunitis beat him out for nickel responsibilities? Maybe 60/40 for Adibi just because he has a slight experience advantage.

Now who do we rotate in the interior DL? Okoye probably takes a lion share of snaps, TJ gets his, Bulman, Robinson looked pretty darn solid, ASmith occasionally...a guy like Jerry probably doesn't come in and set the world on fire year 1 and our depth here has shown itself to be pretty solid without a nice free agent signing and in all probability another draft pick DE. God forbid either of our other 2 1st round DT's show themselves worthy of their pick. We've also got Mario, a new DB coach, a new DC and scheme that apparently is more fitting to the personnel we've already accumulated. Point is Jerry doesn't add what we don't have where a stud DB dropping or a LB does. Or at least attempts to.

Also I think it's fishy you would say most downs we only have 2 LB's but are so opposed to the selection of one. Especially a guy who has a shot at making a difference from the other spot. Anyway I'd be okay with Jenkins or Davis if they fell. IF.
Interesting thoughts, I like where this is heading.
LB- in nickle situations, I think Demeco and Adibi would most likely be the LBs while we add an extra DB. With that said, my hopes would be "what if" a guy we draft for SLB like Matthews would be able to move up to the RDE pass rushing spot, moving Mario to LDE. Then at DT we'd have options of Smith, Okoye, TJ, etc.

Jerry- I can see Jerry as being a pretty flexible kind of player. Drew Boylhart believes his best position should be a 4-3 DE and that he should lose some weight to get there. He thinks Jerry has been misused. I'd love to know what some others think about this possibility or at least just the thought of having him line up all along the line in different packages. If Okoye can come in as raw as he was and get 4.5 sacks his rookie year, I see no reason Jerry couldn't get at least that because he's (i) more polished (ii) has better players around him and (iii) may have a better scheme in place allowing him to get in the backfield.

Both are just some thoughts I'd like to throw out there. No guarantee Matthews could make it as a 4-3 SLB and/or even kick over to RDE. If we're to take a 'D' player at 15, I hope we can use him in lots of different packages.

BigBull17
03-13-2009, 07:26 AM
More quality DB's on the field mean Dallas Clark doesn't run free on patterns because you have a better defensive coverage. A dominant DL means you don't give up 4 and 1. A dominant DL means you stuff the running game. Ask Ray Lewis....arguably one of the best LBers in the game how hard it is when you don't have a quality DL in front of you to fill gaps and take on blocks. Unless I run a 3-4, I'll take a dominant DL and defensive backfield any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I would recommend reading the book "Blind Side" by Micheal Lewis. The current NFL game is changing the way we value positions and players. It just so happens the Texans are following the script for winning in the changed NFL to a tee. Pass rushing DE, strong interior DL, Left OT, ????? A little hint....LB doesn't come next in value.

Take a look at what Free Agents command on open market. LB is way down on the list on salaries commanded in FA when looked at as a positional group.....unless it is a pass rushing OLB which equals pass rushing DE in the 4-3.

Go Texans

If you go into a season with below par LB's, it'll be a long season. Anytime you put you're three LB's on the field, its pass time. TE's WILL be running free down the field, and your dominant DL better get there before the QB's back foot hits the ground. If you stay in dime/nickle the whole game, 4 yards a carry. You have to have all positions strong on defense, or you will get beat down. Whether its a 3-4. 4-3, or whatever. COaches, for the most part, are way to smart to not crush you if you have a glaring weakness in the LB corp.

HoustonFrog
03-13-2009, 08:32 AM
Put me down as thinking we should go some other direction besides LB with our first round pick. I hear the arguments that picking 15th puts us in a bad spot, where we could be reaching for a player that could be had at the end of the round instead of one that is truly worthy of a number 15 slot.

I just don't like the pick of a LB in round one simply because it is one of the least valuable positions on the field unless you run a 3-4 defense. In a 3-4, the pass rushing OLB becomes one of the most valuable.

In today's NFL, LB and RB seem to be the spots where you can throw players at the position and be OK. There are some teams that have stud LB and they are difference makers, but most of the time, those other teams also had stud DL to play in front of the LB.

On most downs in the current NFL incarnation, you only have 2 LB's on the field when you run a 4-3 anyway. One guy is usually on the bench in favor of a nickel or dime package unless it is clearly a running situation. For that reason, most teams put a premium on having lots of good to serviceable DB's and a stud DL in order to build a dominant defense.

My vote goes to best DL or DB available in the first round. I would rate the most valuable positions in a 4-3 defense as DE, CB, DT, S, LB. My gut says to draft another DL in the first round and find another CB somewhere either later in the draft or through trade/FA.

Go Texans

I completely disagree. Let me give you a list and tell me what you think....I'll give you a clue..they all change games in different defenses.....this is a random list I saw awhile back of Top 20 guys in 2007

http://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/Top_20_Linebackers_in_the_NFL/23278
1. Brian Urlacher 2. Shawne Merriman 3. Ray Lewis 4. DeMarcus Ware 5.Adalius Thomas 6. Takeo Spikes 7. Mike Peterson 8. D.J. Williams 9. DeMeco Ryans 10. Lance Briggs 11. Lofa Tatupu 12. A.J. Hawk 13. Jonathan Vilma 14. Joey Porter 15. Zach Thomas 16. Derrick Brooks 17. Ernie Sims 18. Antonio Pierce 19. Julian Peterson 20. Cato June Honorable Mentions: Jeremiah Trotter, London Fletcher, Ian Gold, Nick Barnett, Keith Brooking, and Gary Brackett

Now look at recent drafts and tell me who are many of the players who stood out and changed teams in the 1st round or 2nd....Patrick Willis(defensive rookie of the year) and DeMeco....Last year we had Mayo (defensive rookie of the year) for the Pats. Keith Rivers was going strong and a top rookie until his jaw was broken. EVERY year the standout Defensive rookies seem to be LBs. They lead, change games, change defenses, add dimensions in run and pass coverage.

I'm not saying we have to take LB but if we are in a position where there are no takers in moving down..a good possibility these days...then the top talent on the board at 15 may be LB and I have no problem with that considereing our size at LB and the injuries.

GP
03-13-2009, 11:10 AM
If you go into a season with below par LB's, it'll be a long season. Anytime you put you're three LB's on the field, its pass time. TE's WILL be running free down the field, and your dominant DL better get there before the QB's back foot hits the ground. If you stay in dime/nickle the whole game, 4 yards a carry. You have to have all positions strong on defense, or you will get beat down. Whether its a 3-4. 4-3, or whatever. COaches, for the most part, are way to smart to not crush you if you have a glaring weakness in the LB corp.

I agree.

If your LBs are sub-standard, you're asking offenses to (A) run the ball, or (B) flare TEs and RBs out into the flats and crossing patterns where they can burn a soft LB squad.

If that middle portion (the LB squad) of the field is strong, it gives the DLs and the DBs an easier time at their jobs. The LBs really are the down-and-dirty guys who do the heavy lifting, IMO.

Good defensive teams, at the time when they are good, such as Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Chicago, New England...they all have a really great LB squad. Maybe it doesn't last long, maybe it fades in and out (Baltimore, for example), but when those defenses are shutting down offenses on a consistent basis, it's my opinion that the LBs are leading the way.

Like I said: There's no way of knowing what we'll do in Round 1.

I expect a twist.

This is a strange draft class. I don't think there's many sure-fire Pro Bowlers in it, not even Crabtree (whom I expect to have a hard time adjusting to the concept of running actual routes and not just running to open spots on the field like he did at Tech). I think he's over-hyped, even though I'm a Tech fan.

Historyhorn
03-13-2009, 02:17 PM
It's not that I disagree with you that we need good to great LB. It is that I disagree about the value of the position and the order in which we need to address it.

And when we talk about linebackers, let's make sure we are talking about apples to apples. A good number of those top 20 guys are OLB which equates to DE. Others on that list have MONSTER D lines to protect them and allow them to make plays.

It's nice to have great linebackers, but it isn't the most critical piece as you construct your team into a contender. How many great LB are there on the Titan's roster? Bullock is a player, but I can't name another. We've got a guy better than him on our roster right now. Derrick Brooks got cut. Zack Thomas was allowed to go to the Cowboys for a song.

The Texans may well pick a stud LB in the first round and he could potentially make a splash as a rookie. LB, CB, & RB seem to be the spots where rooks can come in right away and make big time contributions.

I don't think however, our number one should be spent there over a DB (what I prefer) or a DL (I'm ok with this).

Historyhorn
03-13-2009, 02:23 PM
If you go into a season with below par LB's, it'll be a long season. Anytime you put you're three LB's on the field, its pass time. TE's WILL be running free down the field, and your dominant DL better get there before the QB's back foot hits the ground. If you stay in dime/nickle the whole game, 4 yards a carry. You have to have all positions strong on defense, or you will get beat down. Whether its a 3-4. 4-3, or whatever. COaches, for the most part, are way to smart to not crush you if you have a glaring weakness in the LB corp.

Is our LB corps a glaring weakness? I like Adibi & I love Demeco. I'm meh on Bentley, but I'm even lower on our DB corps.

I think Dunta will get back. Reeves was so/so. We were stopgap at SS and FS and I think they performed better than expectations, but I grade one of our corner spots and both of our S spots as bigger holes than SLB. Plus, I believe that DB is a more valuable spot than LB in today's NFL.

Go Texans

Vinny
03-13-2009, 02:29 PM
am I allowed to "call for a lb" too?

DBCooper
03-13-2009, 02:34 PM
Is our LB corps a glaring weakness? I like Adibi & I love Demeco. I'm meh on Bentley, but I'm even lower on our DB corps.

I think Dunta will get back. Reeves was so/so. We were stopgap at SS and FS and I think they performed better than expectations, but I grade one of our corner spots and both of our S spots as bigger holes than SLB. Plus, I believe that DB is a more valuable spot than LB in today's NFL.

Go Texans

LB - DeMeco & who? Weak group. Doesn't even approach the problem with depth.

CB - Dunta and who? Reeves would be alright if he was the nickel back.

Safety - Free Safety anyone?


If you draft wisely, any one of these positions could be upgraded at 15.

TimeKiller
03-13-2009, 04:18 PM
It's not that I disagree with you that we need good to great LB. It is that I disagree about the value of the position and the order in which we need to address it.
We need good LB's but for some reason the only that has ever mattered is the one we used a high pick on. I'm just sayin', they've been addressing the defense pretty much as you are asking for and this defense has been a shining example of suck for years.

And when we talk about linebackers, let's make sure we are talking about apples to apples. A good number of those top 20 guys are OLB which equates to DE. Others on that list have MONSTER D lines to protect them and allow them to make plays.
OLB equates to DE? Whaaa?

It's nice to have great linebackers, but it isn't the most critical piece as you construct your team into a contender. How many great LB are there on the Titan's roster? Bullock is a player, but I can't name another. We've got a guy better than him on our roster right now. Derrick Brooks got cut. Zack Thomas was allowed to go to the Cowboys for a song.

The Texans may well pick a stud LB in the first round and he could potentially make a splash as a rookie. LB, CB, & RB seem to be the spots where rooks can come in right away and make big time contributions.

I don't think however, our number one should be spent there over a DB (what I prefer) or a DL (I'm ok with this).
You can't draft the most critical piece every year. We did that in 2006 and got two critical pieces. They still play on this team so it's time to build around them not behind them. Put guys next to Demeco, Dunta to elevate them, their position and the team. Mario has Amobi, TJ, A Smith, another pick...Adibi is FAR from a stud and who is the next best DB? Wilson? That's not good. So draft a DB? Great, who falls or who do you wildly reach on? Same question for DL? LB just happens to have a few names circling the waters of 15. Unless you want to draft offense the choices are pretty limited. While you seem to "get it" regarding the draft and drafting theory it also seems like you're ignoring the picture slowly coming into focus in the 1st.

barrett
03-14-2009, 04:42 PM
Don't forget, until his injury, Diles was playing terrific.

TimeKiller
03-14-2009, 05:10 PM
Half a season does not make a career.

The1ApplePie
03-14-2009, 07:17 PM
The Texans have a choice

Either draft a big ass DT to soak up blockers

or

Draft a beefy MLB like Rey Rey who can take on blockers

DeMeco Ryans is a lot like Ray Lewis but shares the inability to shed blockers. DeMeco got beat down last year thanks to Okoye and TJ sucking up front. IMO Jerry is a stud but simply isn't a fit for the needs of the team

BigBull17
03-14-2009, 07:41 PM
Is our LB corps a glaring weakness? I like Adibi & I love Demeco. I'm meh on Bentley, but I'm even lower on our DB corps.

I think Dunta will get back. Reeves was so/so. We were stopgap at SS and FS and I think they performed better than expectations, but I grade one of our corner spots and both of our S spots as bigger holes than SLB. Plus, I believe that DB is a more valuable spot than LB in today's NFL.

Go Texans

I think our LB corp is a glaring weakness. Outside of Demeco, who honestly had his worst season, wed have two guys who wouldnt start for any other team. Reeves came on strong last year. Hopefully Dunta plays like he did pre-injury. Wilson is serviceable, same for Fergi and Barber. We have alot of money tied into Dline, so its hard to look there. Linebacker has to get better, in a big way.

dalemurphy
03-14-2009, 07:47 PM
Half a season does not make a career.

Nobody is arguing about Diles' career. Simply, that his body of work last year gives reason to believe he can/will be a good LB going forward.

ObsiWan
03-14-2009, 08:03 PM
The bigger question, that seems to have been ignored in this discussion, is what kind of defensive scheme will Frank Bush implement?
I've heard that he wants to bring pressure. Cool. It would be great if our D dictated the action rather than the read & react

But what does that really mean? Does that mean we draft a speed rushing DE that only plays one down out of three? If so, that's NOT the way to spend a 1st rd pick IMO.

Orrrr does that mean we draft a OLB that is a blitzing maniac? Is there a OLB out there that can blitz AND cover? DeMeco can blitz with the best of them but coverage isn't the strongest part of his game. We don't have enough info on Diles/Adibi to know if one of them is that guy. Not yet.

You guys who track college ball should know. what say you?

Me, if Oher was available I get him and move one of our tackles inside to RG.

Texans#1Fan
03-14-2009, 08:11 PM
Okay, I do agree with you why are we picking a linebacker in the first round. My take is that we should go after a defensive back either a hard hitting safety or cornerback. Which, in this draft doesn't seem to have good ones coming out that I have seen. but, if the Texans could move up in the draft and get in the top ten to get either a good offensive lineman, or a defensive tackle then we could be in business. I just do not like Travis Johnson, I don't think he plays to his potential. I think we need a big DT to help out with the run. but, i do believe we have enough depth in the linebacker position.

Go Frank Bush, Smash them in the mouth!!! This is your defense now, take us to the championship!!!

DBCooper
03-14-2009, 11:28 PM
Okay, I do agree with you why are we picking a linebacker in the first round. My take is that we should go after a defensive back either a hard hitting safety or cornerback. Which, in this draft doesn't seem to have good ones coming out that I have seen. but, if the Texans could move up in the draft and get in the top ten to get either a good offensive lineman, or a defensive tackle then we could be in business. I just do not like Travis Johnson, I don't think he plays to his potential. I think we need a big DT to help out with the run. but, i do believe we have enough depth in the linebacker position.

Go Frank Bush, Smash them in the mouth!!! This is your defense now, take us to the championship!!!

We don't even have 3 good starters, let alone any depth.

dalemurphy
03-14-2009, 11:31 PM
We don't even have 3 good starters, let alone any depth.

Demeco, Diles, Adibi... Bentley, CThompson, Coley.

Why are you so sure that Diles and Adibi aren't good starters? And, if you don't consider Bentley to be a very good backup then you've been staring at Probowl lineups for too long. And, just because CThompson was injured last year doesn't mean he isn't a quality player. He can do a lot of things, including rush the passer and has had success in the NFL with a pretty bad team (Cleveland).

DBCooper
03-14-2009, 11:44 PM
Demeco, Diles, Adibi... Bentley, CThompson, Coley.

Why are you so sure that Diles and Adibi aren't good starters? And, if you don't consider Bentley to be a very good backup then you've been staring at Probowl lineups for too long. And, just because CThompson was injured last year doesn't mean he isn't a quality player. He can do a lot of things, including rush the passer and has had success in the NFL with a pretty bad team (Cleveland).

You make Diles and Adibi the backups and get 2 better LB's and we'll be talking depth.

Diles played well. Will he continue?

Adibi showed some promise. Is he the blitzing threat we need?

I've been watching our LB's and I don't know if it was Richard Smith and his "Lack of" scheme, or if it was the talent of the LB's, but our interior is a major weakness, against the TE, the run, WR through the middle, or just plain slowness to the ball.

TimeKiller
03-15-2009, 03:19 PM
Nobody is arguing about Diles' career. Simply, that his body of work last year gives reason to believe he can/will be a good LB going forward.

Bennett showed as much as Diles did. Reeves is being proclaimed the best DB on the team last year. Molden is still a ? floating around in the background. There's little doubt IMO that another CB and probably DB/S will be picked too so I guess I see as many answers and questions at LB as I do at DB. There's one guy and a few around him who have shown a little bit. I guess I'd rather improve the front 7/controlling the run than the pass coverage in the first, especially when getting a good DB value at 15 looks slim.

dalemurphy
03-15-2009, 05:48 PM
Bennett showed as much as Diles did. Reeves is being proclaimed the best DB on the team last year. Molden is still a ? floating around in the background. There's little doubt IMO that another CB and probably DB/S will be picked too so I guess I see as many answers and questions at LB as I do at DB. There's one guy and a few around him who have shown a little bit. I guess I'd rather improve the front 7/controlling the run than the pass coverage in the first, especially when getting a good DB value at 15 looks slim.

I'm not opposed to improving the LB position and I agree that there are question marks with Adibi and Diles. My point is that there will be question marks with rookies that we bring in as well. And, since we have good depth and young, talented players who have displayed some promise on the NFL field, I would be hesitant to spend our premium resources in the draft on a LB unless he was clearly the best player on the board.

I'll freely admit it's possible Diles will flatline and/or Adibi won't be able to stay on the field. However, with Bentley, Thompson, and Coley behind them, I feel good about giving those guys and opportunity. Meanwhile, behind Slaton we have Chris Brown and Ryan Moats. Behind Myers, Briesel, and Pitts we have Kasey bleeping Studdard and Chris White. We know for a fact that we need to improve our talent level at those positions. LB could be a strength, as is.

GP
03-17-2009, 09:31 AM
Clay remains me of Zach Thomas.

I think he's going to do well.

Historyhorn
03-23-2009, 08:55 AM
Here is a possibility to improve the LB position:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/032309dnspocowlede.3e5cc0f.html

He can play OLB in the 4-3 and the article indicates he has good coverage skills on TE and slot situations.

Give up a third this year and address other needs.

Go Texans

HOU-TEX
03-23-2009, 09:00 AM
Here is a possibility to improve the LB position:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/032309dnspocowlede.3e5cc0f.html

He can play OLB in the 4-3 and the article indicates he has good coverage skills on TE and slot situations.

Give up a third this year and address other needs.

Go Texans

No thanks, unless it's for one of our 4ths or later. :cool:

ArlingtonTexan
03-23-2009, 10:58 AM
Here is a possibility to improve the LB position:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/032309dnspocowlede.3e5cc0f.html

He can play OLB in the 4-3 and the article indicates he has good coverage skills on TE and slot situations.

Give up a third this year and address other needs.

Go Texans

He has barely seen the field in three year, probably 6th or 7th would get it done. Has not even been a consistent, quality special teamer. May not even be worth the trouble.

CloakNNNdagger
04-01-2009, 05:28 PM
At USC Pro Day today (Clay Mathews-40 yd-4.57), 30 of the 32 teams were represented. Besides Denver, it was only our own Texans which were notably absent. Does this tell us something, or are we just seeing a deflection "smoke screen?"

TimeKiller
04-01-2009, 05:46 PM
At USC Pro Day today (Clay Mathews-40 yd-4.57), 30 of the 32 teams were represented. Besides Denver, it was only our own Texans which were notably absent. Does this tell us something, or are we just seeing a deflection "smoke screen?"

-Got all we needed to see at the Combine?
-"Oh Clay, guess who? That's right, Uncle Bruiser, can I fly you down to meet a few friends of mine?"
-We need an OLB around where he'll be picked. What's debatable is whether or not that trigger gets pulled, not that we don't need him. I don't think the Texans would go through any trouble trying to smoke screen for him. Everybody already knows he's a target for us.

CloakNNNdagger
04-01-2009, 06:02 PM
-Got all we needed to see at the Combine?
-"Oh Clay, guess who? That's right, Uncle Bruiser, can I fly you down to meet a few friends of mine?"
-We need an OLB around where he'll be picked. What's debatable is whether or not that trigger gets pulled, not that we don't need him. I don't think the Texans would go through any trouble trying to smoke screen for him. Everybody already knows he's a target for us.

Funny, he had faster times that the WRs.

mussop
04-01-2009, 07:23 PM
At USC Pro Day today (Clay Mathews-40 yd-4.57), 30 of the 32 teams were represented. Besides Denver, it was only our own Texans which were notably absent. Does this tell us something, or are we just seeing a deflection "smoke screen?"


I cant beleive we werent there. I just dont get it.

threetoedpete
04-01-2009, 11:43 PM
At USC Pro Day today (Clay Mathews-40 yd-4.57), 30 of the 32 teams were represented. Besides Denver, it was only our own Texans which were notably absent. Does this tell us something, or are we just seeing a deflection "smoke screen?"

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80f8ecee

Further, I believe Clay Mathews is the closest thing I've seen to Derick Brooks since Derick Brooks. Which leads me to believe....he has not only passed Cushing, Rey, he might be the best value at the LB at the fifteen....including Aaron Curry. I also believe his body of work and his high level athleticism he has shown this off season will make it virtually impossible for him to fall to us at the fifteen. While you guys were worrying about whether or not we should draft the guy....I think clubs with more draft ammo have already decided to move up ahead of us to take the guy. He 's too good a talent for this team. He's a rare talent.

keyser
04-02-2009, 02:04 AM
At USC Pro Day today (Clay Mathews-40 yd-4.57), 30 of the 32 teams were represented. Besides Denver, it was only our own Texans which were notably absent. Does this tell us something, or are we just seeing a deflection "smoke screen?"

Like mussop, this makes no sense to me. Even ignoring Matthews, there are several USC players (including two other probable first round LBs) that are going to be drafted - it seems like it would be an awfully good return on investment to send someone there... A "smoke screen" makes no sense to me, as it doesn't give anything away to go see the pro-day.

Come to think of it, I don't remember reading about the Texans showing up at other pro days (but I might just not be remembering). Maybe this is something that the scouting department doesn't value?

Carr Bombed
04-02-2009, 02:09 AM
Like mussop, this makes no sense to me. Even ignoring Matthews, there are several USC players (including two other probable first round LBs) that are going to be drafted - it seems like it would be an awfully good return on investment to send someone there... A "smoke screen" makes no sense to me, as it doesn't give anything away to go see the pro-day.

Come to think of it, I don't remember reading about the Texans showing up at other pro days (but I might just not be remembering). Maybe this is something that the scouting department doesn't value?

There's no reason for the Texans to be at the pro day. If they're interested in these LBs, they've already watched all the game tape they needed to see and even went to the combine, why do they need to watch them run around in shorts again?

Pro days are completely overrated and some of y'all are putting way too much stock into them. If Houston is already sold on Matthews or Cushing, there's no reason to go to the pro day.

keyser
04-02-2009, 03:26 AM
There's no reason for the Texans to be at the pro day. If they're interested in these LBs, they've already watched all the game tape they needed to see and even went to the combine, why do they need to watch them run around in shorts again?

Pro days are completely overrated and some of y'all are putting way too much stock into them. If Houston is already sold on Matthews or Cushing, there's no reason to go to the pro day.

I understand what you're saying, but still, 30 out of the 32 teams felt there was some value in attending. There must be some benefit in going, or teams wouldn't do it. You could make that argument about every team/player (except the players who skipped the combine).

Besides, there were more players there than just Matthews and Cushing (and Sanchez and Maualauga (sp?)). It's odd to me that the Texans would skip out on a pro day for such a major "powerhouse" as USC - not only are there potential players they could target with their first round pick, but there are several lower-ranked players who might still be strong candidates for later round picks, and you get a better chance to see them up close.

It makes me wonder if the Texans just don't value pro days, period. Actually, I think there's a lot to be said for relying on game tape more than pro day (or combine) performances, but it still seems weird for them to skip this pro day in particular.

TimeKiller
04-02-2009, 07:39 AM
Funny, he had faster times that the WRs.
What's funny about that?

I think this one went over my head...

nunusguy
04-02-2009, 07:59 AM
It has to do with Clay Matthews more than anything else - everybody is
in love with him and have fallen deep into group-think (aka as following the sheep heard, conformity, etc.) because of the family connection with
HOF/new Texans coach uncle Bruce.
What we really need is a SAM and Matthews is a 4-3 WIL. Besides even if he could play SAM, people don't use a top-half first round pick on SAMs.

thunderkyss
04-02-2009, 08:29 AM
What we really need is a SAM and Matthews is a 4-3 WIL. Besides even if he could play SAM, people don't use a top-half first round pick on SAMs.

So are you saying our LBs are as good as the best in the league in pass coverage?

Because I'm not buying that. I think we need upgrades at both SAM & Will. We don't stop the run very well, as a unit, and we don't defend against the pass very well as a unit.

TimeKiller
04-02-2009, 09:01 AM
It has to do with Clay Matthews more than anything else - everybody is
in love with him and have fallen deep into group-think (aka as following the sheep heard, conformity, etc.) because of the family connection with
HOF/new Texans coach uncle Bruce.
What we really need is a SAM and Matthews is a 4-3 WIL. Besides even if he could play SAM, people don't use a top-half first round pick on SAMs.

The connection is only one reason I like him at 15. I guess I just don't understand the finer points of LB classification but Matthews isn't lacking in size, isn't too slow, isn't too weak......what exactly makes him a WLB to you?

What position do you think Aaron Curry is?

threetoedpete
04-02-2009, 09:07 AM
It has to do with Clay Matthews more than anything else - everybody is
in love with him and have fallen deep into group-think (aka as following the sheep heard, conformity, etc.) because of the family connection with
HOF/new Texans coach uncle Bruce.
What we really need is a SAM and Matthews is a 4-3 WIL. Besides even if he could play SAM, people don't use a top-half first round pick on SAMs.

Nuns none of them come with a garuantee stamped on their heel. He could slip out of the shower tomorrow break an ankle and never be the athlete he was yesterday.

What I wanna know from you is exactly what does a guy have to do to win you over? From my tree his stock is so high now....there's not a chance in
he77 he'll be on the board at fifteen.

They'd have to move up to get him...which they won't. He's got the total package...heart...speed ...athletism...production..upside....

I'd just like to know...since you just called me a mindless sheep....exactly who has had a better off season than this guy in your book ? Inquiring minds wish to know ? What does a guy have to do to win you over ?

Let's see....He's faster, quicker......than cushing. He's lighter....by six pounds. He runs like a WR.....catches the ball like a TE. The only thing I see Cushing has over Mathews.....is Cushings body grew quicker and got more starts than this guy. that's it. Every other check mark goes to Mathews.

Cushing safer....maybe......but there should be no question now who has the potential to be the best LB on the board in the entire class. Only man love would make a fella fail to see this. Sam ? I'll see you a broke leg and raise you how many missed starts ?

threetoedpete
04-02-2009, 09:24 AM
One last thing...yeah you don't over pay for LBs....but you get a chance at a guy who has the numbers to indicate he could be the next Lawerance Taylor....or Wilbur marshal...or Derick brooks.....a true defensive play maker behind Mario, and your team is comitted to going with 3-4 DE oposite Marrio.....and features the twenty second defense in the league.....how can you sit there and call us mindless sheep ? When by the numbers.....this guy at the linebacker slot could raise the defenses production enough to jump ten spots in the rankings.....win the division out right....take you to the play offs....No you don't pass that up. You draft it. If he's there....which after his show yesterday...he won't be.

TexanAddict
04-02-2009, 10:08 AM
One last thing...yeah you don't over pay for LBs....but you get a chance at a guy who has the numbers to indicate he could be the next Lawerance Taylor....or Wilbur marshal...or Derick brooks.....a true defensive play maker behind Mario, and your team is comitted to going with 3-4 DE oposite Marrio.....and features the twenty second defense in the league.....how can you sit there and call us mindless sheep ? When by the numbers.....this guy at the linebacker slot could raise the defenses production enough to jump ten spots in the rankings.....win the division out right....take you to the play offs....No you don't pass that up. You draft it. If he's there....which after his show yesterday...he won't be.

I think everybody is getting a little carried away.

College Production:

Lawrence Taylor
In his junior season he recorded 80 solo tackles, five sacks, and recovered seven fumbles in just an 11-game span. The following season, even though he was already drawing double- and even triple-team coverage, he logged 69 unassisted tackles. Twenty-two of those tackles were losses behind the line of scrimmage and 16 were quarterback sacks. He also recovered three fumbles. His outstanding play earned him All-America honors and was named the Atlantic Coast Conference Player of the Year.
Link (http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Coffin_Corner/21-04-809.pdf)

Wilber Marshall
He was All-American and a finalist for the Lombardi Award in both 1982 and 1983. He made the College Football All-America Team twice (1982, 1983) and left Florida with 343 tackles and school record 23 sacks.
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilber_Marshall)

Derrick Brooks
Awards and honors

* 3x First-team All-ACC (1992–1994)
* 3x All-American (1992–1994)
* ACC Defensive Player of the Year (1993)
* 2x Vince Lombardi Award finalist (1993–1994)

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Brooks)
Career statistics included 274 tackles (153, 121), five interceptions, 8.5 sacks, 13 passes defensed, four forced fumbles and three fumble recoveries. Senior honors included First Team All-America by American Football Coaches, UPI and Walter Camp. Was also a GTE Academic All-America choice. Was First Team All-Atlantic Coast Conference and was selected for Senior Bowl. For second straight year, was a finalist for Vince Lombardi Award, symbolic of nation`s top lineman/linebacker.
Link (http://www.hit55.net/bio_1.html)

Clay Matthews
Career Stats: 96 tackles, 13.5 TFL, 5.5 sacks, 4 PBU
Link (http://www.draftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/olb/Clay-Matthews.php)
Awards
2008 Pro Football Weekly All-American Honorable Mention
2008 All-Pac-10 Second-Team
2008 Rivals.com Second-Team All-American
2006,2007,2008 USC Special Teams Player of the Year
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_Matthews_III)

I would say that coming out of college, Matthews is a far cry from those you previously mentioned. There is potential with Matthews, but a lot more hype than actual production.

threetoedpete
04-02-2009, 10:20 AM
Well, he couldn't dictate when his body chose to developer. Now could he ? I see what I see....he's the round peg in our round hole....& he's not going to be there at the fifteen....so it's moot.

TexanAddict
04-02-2009, 10:26 AM
....he's the round peg in our round hole....

:spit:

Yikes

threetoedpete
04-02-2009, 10:29 AM
You know a prime candidate to move up would be Tennessee. Bud loves sticking the dagger to us....swithces with New Orleans....Takes Mathews and as a replacement for Bullocks.....we get to see for the next several seasons where he goes. New Orleans gets one of the CB's at a cheaper price....gains some picks. Bud's got egg all over his face over Vincent....might motivate him.

threetoedpete
04-02-2009, 10:41 AM
:spit:

Yikes

Well they say he who laughs last ....... What I find amussing is how many people would take a Micheal Johnson based on sheer numbers & body style , and laugh at the suggestion that Clay III has the athleitism at will to make the defense not just good but feared. You know safe is good when you're building.....but there is no question now....that he can play standing up. He is smooth in his back peddle......he has great hands.....he can defeat bigger lineman at the POA....not a reach any more in my book....Just the next guy in line who redefines the LB position. Runs like a WR.....feet like a RB....catches the ball like a TE....a playmaker on both levels of the defense.

I would still move up and take Orakpo....but I believe this guy will mean more to a team in the long run than Orakpo.

76Texan
04-02-2009, 10:42 AM
It has to do with Clay Matthews more than anything else - everybody is
in love with him and have fallen deep into group-think (aka as following the sheep heard, conformity, etc.) because of the family connection with
HOF/new Texans coach uncle Bruce.
What we really need is a SAM and Matthews is a 4-3 WIL. Besides even if he could play SAM, people don't use a top-half first round pick on SAMs.

Nuns none of them come with a garuantee stamped on their heel. He could slip out of the shower tomorrow break an ankle and never be the athlete he was yesterday.

What I wanna know from you is exactly what does a guy have to do to win you over? From my tree his stock is so high now....there's not a chance in
he77 he'll be on the board at fifteen.

They'd have to move up to get him...which they won't. He's got the total package...heart...speed ...athletism...production..upside....

I'd just like to know...since you just called me a mindless sheep....exactly who has had a better off season than this guy in your book ? Inquiring minds wish to know ? What does a guy have to do to win you over ?

Let's see....He's faster, quicker......than cushing. He's lighter....by six pounds. He runs like a WR.....catches the ball like a TE. The only thing I see Cushing has over Mathews.....is Cushings body grew quicker and got more starts than this guy. that's it. Every other check mark goes to Mathews.

Cushing safer....maybe......but there should be no question now who has the potential to be the best LB on the board in the entire class. Only man love would make a fella fail to see this. Sam ? I'll see you a broke leg and raise you how many missed starts ?So now you're telling me that Matthews is No. 1 overall, and not Curry?

And Cushing is maybe safer than Matthews, so what does that make him?
Safer than Curry?

I just want to know the thought process!:cool:

TheRealJoker
04-02-2009, 10:51 AM
[QUOTE=threetoedpete;1152466]So now you're telling me that Matthews is No. 1 overall, and not Curry?

And Cushing is maybe safer than Matthews, so what does that make him?
Safer than Curry?

I just want to know the thought process!:cool:

It means Matthews has the highest ceiling/lowest floor of the 3.

TexansSeminole
04-02-2009, 10:52 AM
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80f8ecee

Further, I believe Clay Mathews is the closest thing I've seen to Derick Brooks since Derick Brooks. Which leads me to believe....he has not only passed Cushing, Rey, he might be the best value at the LB at the fifteen....including Aaron Curry. I also believe his body of work and his high level athleticism he has shown this off season will make it virtually impossible for him to fall to us at the fifteen. While you guys were worrying about whether or not we should draft the guy....I think clubs with more draft ammo have already decided to move up ahead of us to take the guy. He 's too good a talent for this team. He's a rare talent.

Are you really ready to say this guy is the next Derrick Brooks after one season of starting on a USC defense that has a TON of good players on it.

Derrick Brooks college stats: 274 tackles, 13 pass deflections, 8.5 sacks, five interceptions, four forced fumbles and three fumble recoveries

Clay Mathews: 88 tackles, 3 pass deflections, 5.5 sacks, 0 interceptions, four forced fumbles and two fumble recoveries.

Derrick Brooks in college>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Clay Matthews in college.

JMO but it seems pretty apparent.

Let's not get too ga ga over a 40 time, or a catch in a drill.

Let's go back to the game tape and stats before we start calling the guy the next Derrick Brooks.

It has to do with Clay Matthews more than anything else - everybody is
in love with him and have fallen deep into group-think (aka as following the sheep heard, conformity, etc.) because of the family connection with
HOF/new Texans coach uncle Bruce.


I think that is exactly what it is. Then the guy has a great workout and people are ready to say he is the next Derrick Brooks or Lawrence Taylor.

threetoedpete
04-02-2009, 10:55 AM
I'm saying Clay III's upside of production.....trumps curry's versitillity...

Yes I am.

Laugh away. I know what I saw yesterday. And what I saw was a guy with all the skill sets to become a HOFer. And the odds are...every DC who was there saw it to. Kiper and the rest will criticize because they had him rated so low because of college production. Ridicule anyone who takes him over where they have him ranked.....but this off season, if the process means anything at all....Clay III should be the bell of the ball for anyone looking for a difference maker on defense.....the numbers and work outs say he's a lock.

TexansSeminole
04-02-2009, 10:58 AM
I think everybody is getting a little carried away.

College Production:

Lawrence Taylor

Link (http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Coffin_Corner/21-04-809.pdf)

Wilber Marshall

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilber_Marshall)

Derrick Brooks

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Brooks)

Link (http://www.hit55.net/bio_1.html)

Clay Matthews

Link (http://www.draftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/olb/Clay-Matthews.php)

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_Matthews_III)

I would say that coming out of college, Matthews is a far cry from those you previously mentioned. There is potential with Matthews, but a lot more hype than actual production.

Exactly.

TexansSeminole
04-02-2009, 11:03 AM
the numbers and work outs say he's a lock.

The workouts don't mean anything really. It is just a measure of athleticism.

It's like Vernon Davis, he had a fantastic workout and his numbers were great, but look at him now.

There are many, many examples of this. Vernon Davis is just one example.

ThreeToed, explain how you came up with the "the next Derrick Brooks or Lawrence Taylor" bit. The numbers are nowhere close. The playing time is not even close. The awards aren't even close.

Nothing is close. I really don't see how you came up with that at all.

Did you come up with that simply because he ran a good 40 and caught the ball well in DRILLS?

76Texan
04-02-2009, 11:05 AM
I'm saying Clay III's upside of production.....trumps curry's versitillity...

Yes I am.

Laugh away. I know what I saw yesterday. And what I saw was a guy with all the skill sets to become a HOFer. And the odds are...every DC who was there saw it to. Kiper and the rest will criticize because they had him rated so low because of college production. Ridicule anyone who takes him over where they have him ranked.....but this off season, if the process means anything at all....Clay III should be the bell of the ball for anyone looking for a difference maker on defense.....the numbers and work outs say he's a lock.
I only wonder because you were so high on Curry before. When I questioned Mayock's putting his value at number one, saying that he's the safest pick in the draft, you agreed with him and went on telling me that Curry can play all 3 spots.

So, I wonder if you can explain to me where you see Curry's floor isand where his ceiling might be?
Same for Cushing and Matthews!
Inquiring mind would like to know, thank you!

threetoedpete
04-02-2009, 11:10 AM
Are you really ready to say this guy is the next Derrick Brooks after one season of starting on a USC defense that has a TON of good players on it.

Derrick Brooks college stats: 274 tackles, 13 pass deflections, 8.5 sacks, five interceptions, four forced fumbles and three fumble recoveries

Clay Mathews: 88 tackles, 3 pass deflections, 5.5 sacks, 0 interceptions, four forced fumbles and two fumble recoveries.

Derrick Brooks in college>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Clay Matthews in college.

JMO but it seems pretty apparent.

Let's not get too ga ga over a 40 time, or a catch in a drill.

Let's go back to the game tape and stats before we start calling the guy the next Derrick Brooks.



I think that is exactly what it is. Then the guy has a great workout and people are ready to say he is the next Derrick Brooks or Lawrence Taylor.

It's not "a" great work out...it's dominating people...tackles, power rushing at the Sr. Bowl.....It's running a faster ten yard split than most WR's at the combine....It's running through the dummies with the feet of a running back...It's standing up and back peddling smoother than all of the safeties on the board.....It' s catching the ball, with his hands, better than most of the tight ends on the board....Not just "the" or "a" work out....

What y'alls problem is....you Kiper and Mcshays' can't get over the "Walk on" tag.

I don't care you guys draft safe....we'll see. Safe guy makes us better....I believe Clay would give us the division out right. Why wouldn't I be excited about that ?

....whatever. I'm going to enjoy watching his career where ever he goes.

Polo
04-02-2009, 11:13 AM
It's not "a" great work out...it's dominating peple power rushing at the Sr. Bowl.....It's running a faste ten yard split than most WR's at the combine....It's running through the dummies with the feet of a running back...It's standingup and back peddeling smoother than all of the safteis on the board.....It' s catching the ball, with his hands better than most of the tight ends on the board....Not just the or a work out....

What y'alls problem is....you kiper and Mcshays' can't get over the "Walk on" Tag. I don't care you guys draft safe....we'll see. Safe guy makes us better....I believe Clay would give us the division out right. why wouldn't I be excited about that....whatever.

You are exaggerating

If Clay was all of those things then he should have shown up more on the actual playing field. Not only that, but if he is all of what you say he is, then he should be a top 10 pick and gone long before we even have a chance to get him.

infantrycak
04-02-2009, 11:13 AM
ThreeToed, explain how you came up with the "the next Derrick Brooks or Lawrence Taylor" bit. The numbers are nowhere close. The playing time is not even close. The awards aren't even close.

Nothing is close. I really don't see how you came up with that at all.

How do only their last year's compare?

I think TTP has been clear he thinks Matthews developed physically late and therefore is looking more at the recent performance.

TexansSeminole
04-02-2009, 11:14 AM
It's not "a" great work out...it's dominating peple power rushing at the Sr. Bowl.....It's running a faste ten yard split than most WR's at the combine....It's running through the dummies with the feet of a running back...It's standingup and back peddeling smoother than all of the safteis on the board.....It' s catching the ball, with his hands better than most of the tight ends on the board....Not just the or a work out....

What y'alls problem is....you kiper and Mcshays' can't get over the "Walk on" Tag. I don't care you guys draft safe....we'll see. Safe guy makes us better....I believe Clay would give us the division out right. why wouldn't I be excited about that....whatever.

I was not even aware that he was a walk on so your obviously wrong there.

Everything you just said here is about the workout. Backpeddling in the drill, running through dummies, running a fast ten yard split.

Am I wrong to think you want to make those comparisons based off a workout?

I just think it's a bit much when the guy has played one year of football at the college level. He had a good offseason, having great workouts (happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR with multiple players).

That's his body of work. And from that you are saying:

Next Derrick Brooks
Next Lawrence Taylor
Wins the division out right for us
Puts us into the playoffs

TexansSeminole
04-02-2009, 11:21 AM
How do only their last year's compare?

I think TTP has been clear he thinks Matthews developed physically late and therefore is looking more at the recent performance.

Derrick Brooks: In nine starts, finished second on team with 77 tackles (41, 36) to go with three interceptions, three sacks, six passes defensed, one forced fumble and one fumble recovery.

Clay Matthews: In 13 games played (not sure how many starts) finished with 56 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 0 interceptions, 2 passes defensed, 2 forced fumbles, 2 fumble recoveries.

This after Brooks was a first team All-American and ACC Defensive Player of the Year in his junior year and was most certainly keyed on by offensive coordinators in every single game that he played.

Matthews had his first year starting, so offenses aren't focusing on him, they barely know who he is at the beginning of the season. Not to mention this USC defense was better than the FSU defense Brooks played on IMO, by a pretty good margin too.

This is what Derrick Brooks did in his first year starting as a SOPHOMORE:

Earned sophomore All-America honors from Football News and was also a First Team All-ACC choice. Started all 11 games at OLB and produced career-best 98 tackles (55, 43), 3.5 sacks and a fumble recovery.

threetoedpete
04-02-2009, 11:24 AM
You are exaggerating

If Clay was all of those things then he should have shown up more on the actual playing field. Not only that, but if he is all of what you say he is, then he should be a top 10 pick and gone long before we even have a chance to get him.

well Pete Carrol just called himself a fool by not playing him more earler. So I guess he agrees with you. He said if he played him earlier....they wouldn't have lost the Oregon game......for what that is worth. Hey I called my shot....we'll see.

threetoedpete
04-02-2009, 11:31 AM
I was not even aware that he was a walk on so your obviously wrong there.

Everything you just said here is about the workout. Backpeddling in the drill, running through dummies, running a fast ten yard split.

Am I wrong to think you want to make those comparisons based off a workout?

I just think it's a bit much when the guy has played one year of football at the college level. He had a good offseason, having great workouts (happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR with multiple players).

That's his body of work. And from that you are saying:

Next Derrick Brooks
Next Lawrence Taylor
Wins the division out right for us
Puts us into the playoffs

Well fine siminole....Draft Everette or Laurenitus and we'll see how it all works out. Why wouldn't I post that if that is what I believe. Play maker at both levels of the defense.... Numbers say he's fast enough to run with Chris Johson....big enough to solidly tackle MJD. Puts pressure on the edge with Mario.....covers....all TEs we will face....Just me but how do you pass that up?

Ah I get it...he was a walk on. Look the guys body chose this time to bloom....you're correct I don't know.....but I gamble on the numbers....and guess what? You basicaly do that with all of them. Look I also said...he's not going to make it to fifteen now...unless we move up...which we won't we won't have a shot at him. I have him ranked top ten....he's answered all of the questions. I don't understand what it is about that...you don't get.

76Texan
04-02-2009, 11:33 AM
well Pete Carrol just called himself a fool by not playing him more earler. So I guess he agrees with you. He said if he played him earlier....they wouldn't have lost the Oregon game......for what that is worth. Hey I called my shot....we'll see.
Well yeah, Pete Carrol may have been a fool for not playing him enough the year before when they lost to the Ducks (lost), but he did play plenty this year against both Oregon (won) and Oregon St (lost). Put on those two game tapes and find out!

nunusguy
04-02-2009, 11:34 AM
Nuns none of them come with a garuantee stamped on their heel. He could slip out of the shower tomorrow break an ankle and never be the athlete he was yesterday.

What I wanna know from you is exactly what does a guy have to do to win you over? From my tree his stock is so high now....there's not a chance in
he77 he'll be on the board at fifteen.


I don't necessarily think Matthews or Cushing is an upgrade at WIL over the X-man. You say Adibi is too small at 220 something vs the USC backers who are both reportedly in the 240-250 range ? Not anymore as Adibi has reportedly added 20 lbs in the offseason conditioning program under the weight-training guy. Hey if the Trojan guys can beef-up so can the X-man.
And I doubt that either of the Trojan LBs are any more athletic ?
Now Cushing could play SAM (even though Matthews isn't suited to play that positon), but like I said earlier #15 is just too high for a SAM.
I don't think we draft one of the USC LBs at 15, maybe later in the first round if we trade back into the 20s.

Ole Miss Texan
04-02-2009, 11:34 AM
Matthews is one of my favorite players in the draft before even considering his genes. I don't care if he only started 1 season, he was on arguably the most talented defense in all of college and he played in 50 games while there. He's got the experience.

All I know is he plays fast, he plays hard and he's a real football player. I think both our front 7 and our back 7 get stronger with him.

Just think of sending him in on a blitz while Adibi and Demeco are covering the middle. Matthews can rush the pass just as good if not better than the other LB/DE guys but I think he's got a much better ability to be a LB and help in coverage than any of the other guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFi0o8GCM9c

I think with his work ethic and the way he plays hard nosed football, he would become a fan favorite.

TexansSeminole
04-02-2009, 11:39 AM
Ah I get it...he was a walk on. Look the guys body chose this time to bloom....you're correct I don't know.....but I gamble on the numbers....and guess what you basicaly do that with all of them. Look I also said...he's not going to make it to fifteen now...unless we move up...which we won't we won't have a shot at him. I have him ranked top ten....he's answered all of the questions. I don't understand what it is about that...you don't get.

Like I said before, I was not aware that he was a walk on until you said so.

I don't get you saying he is the next Lawrence Taylor or Derrick Brooks when there is absolutely nothing FOOTBALL related that shows that. Maybe he runs around in shorts like Brooks did or Taylor did. But when I watch those guys play football, the difference is very apparent. They are not even close.


That's really what I don't get. Comparing a guy to Derrick Brooks or Lawrence Taylor when he has 1 year of game tape, and the numbers are really not even close.

Clay Matthews has never even recorded an interception in college, and your ready to compare him to Derrick Brooks, who was known for making interceptions and returning them for touchdowns.

That's what I don't get.

BigBull17
04-02-2009, 11:41 AM
I'm saying Clay III's upside of production.....trumps curry's versitillity...

Yes I am.

Laugh away. I know what I saw yesterday. And what I saw was a guy with all the skill sets to become a HOFer. And the odds are...every DC who was there saw it to. Kiper and the rest will criticize because they had him rated so low because of college production. Ridicule anyone who takes him over where they have him ranked.....but this off season, if the process means anything at all....Clay III should be the bell of the ball for anyone looking for a difference maker on defense.....the numbers and work outs say he's a lock.

God, I hope 14 other GM's agree.