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Honoring Earl 34
02-28-2009, 10:58 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_11809351

WesmanTexanfan
02-28-2009, 11:29 PM
If I were Shanny Id want to trade him after hearing this...

"I dont play for coaches anyway"

eriadoc
02-28-2009, 11:35 PM
If I were Shanny Id want to trade him after hearing this...

"I dont play for coaches anyway"

All he said is that he plays for teammates. Nothing wrong with that, IMO. Besides, Shanny doesn't have anything to do with it, since he's not even a Bronco anymore.

The Pencil Neck
02-28-2009, 11:47 PM
If I were Shanny Id want to trade him after hearing this...

"I dont play for coaches anyway"

If you were Shanny, you'd be sitting on your couch watching your TV and finding out about all this stuff from NFLN.

mexican_texan
02-28-2009, 11:54 PM
I guarantee you Jeff Fisher was on the phone with a Denver official.

Ckw
03-01-2009, 01:01 AM
Wow!!! Alright Denver if you want to get rid of Cutler, you can have Schaub, a third round pick, and a case of Shiner Bock.

mussop
03-01-2009, 06:06 AM
Wow!!! Alright Denver if you want to get rid of Cutler, you can have Schaub, a third round pick, and a case of Shiner Bock.

And we wont match David Anderson! :pirate:

Mari-OWNED!
03-01-2009, 07:22 AM
Wow!!! Alright Denver if you want to get rid of Cutler, you can have Schaub, a third round pick, and a case of Shiner Bock.

And we wont match David Anderson! :pirate:

Really guys? Maybe I'm just crazy, but I'd rather have Schaub than Cutler.

mattieuk
03-01-2009, 07:48 AM
Really guys? Maybe I'm just crazy, but I'd rather have Schaub than Cutler.

I'm not too sure, I think Cutler looks like a nicely developing QB, and his attitude seems pretty impressive to me.

Shocked that the Broncos would entertain replacing him with Cassel. Are they stupid, or just bored during the offseason?

rarazz00
03-01-2009, 08:25 AM
I honestly believe that he was never gonna be traded...as GM/Coaches..you always hear what somebody has to say. Thats just playing the game from a buisness perspective. The new regime knows they have a top tier QB. And Pat Bowlin would would "***** slap em" for even thinking it:club:

Htownsportsfan
03-01-2009, 08:31 AM
I'm not too sure, I think Cutler looks like a nicely developing QB, and his attitude seems pretty impressive to me.
Shocked that the Broncos would entertain replacing him with Cassel. Are they stupid, or just bored during the offseason?


I like the fact he is not afraid to try and get the ball in just about anywhere but his mouth and attitude have been an issue. He mouthed of about Rivers and then got beat by the chargers as well as complaining in the media in Denver. That does not make win you a whole lot of fans in year three when you have yet to win anything. AS many good plays as Cutler makes with his legs and strong arm up to this point it has just bought him enough time to get into trouble and throw game ending picks.

eriadoc
03-01-2009, 08:39 AM
Really guys? Maybe I'm just crazy, but I'd rather have Schaub than Cutler.

I'm going with you're crazy. Cutler is going to be a top 5 QB in this league in a year or two, and he's going to stay there for a long time. Schaub doesn't have a ceiling that high.

Blazing Arrow
03-01-2009, 10:50 AM
I like the fact he is not afraid to try and get the ball in just about anywhere but his mouth and attitude have been an issue. He mouthed of[f] about Rivers and then got beat by the chargers as well as complaining in the media in Denver. That does not make win you a whole lot of fans in year three when you have yet to win anything. AS many good plays as Cutler makes with his legs and strong arm up to this point it has just bought him enough time to get into trouble and throw game ending picks.

Ummm ... did you watch that game? Rivers at one point as he was walking off the field made a point to walk over near the Denver bench and mouth off to Cutler basically calling him a baby and a bust. Made some crying motion ... it was completely classless. Rivers is a douche bag plain and simple. He has no idea of sportsmanship and really should have been fined several times for what he has done. He will get his though. You act like that in this league and your liner starts to fail you find guys going for your knees.

Maddict5
03-01-2009, 12:43 PM
Ummm ... did you watch that game? Rivers at one point as he was walking off the field made a point to walk over near the Denver bench and mouth off to Cutler basically calling him a baby and a bust. Made some crying motion ... it was completely classless. Rivers is a douche bag plain and simple. He has no idea of sportsmanship and really should have been fined several times for what he has done. He will get his though. You act like that in this league and your liner starts to fail you find guys going for your knees.


i still lol at rivers being such a douche yet doesnt curse. i can imagine 'hey cutler, nice incompletion you dumb frick' :rolleyes:

WesmanTexanfan
03-01-2009, 12:53 PM
If I were Shanny Id want to trade him after hearing this...

"I dont play for coaches anyway"

Damn, i apologize, it was late and if you watch the rockets well, youll understand my state of mind....


To correct my comment, If I were Josh, I would want to trade him after hearing this.

As a coach, I would talk to him to see if I really thinnk he believes what he said and then either trade him or dont.

Ole Miss Texan
03-01-2009, 12:58 PM
Ummm ... did you watch that game? Rivers at one point as he was walking off the field made a point to walk over near the Denver bench and mouth off to Cutler basically calling him a baby and a bust. Made some crying motion ... it was completely classless. Rivers is a douche bag plain and simple. He has no idea of sportsmanship and really should have been fined several times for what he has done. He will get his though. You act like that in this league and your liner starts to fail you find guys going for your knees.

Philip Rivers is in the Top 5 of my least liked players. I actually used to like the Chargers but completely stopped being a fan of that team because of him and his attitude/immaturity.

The1ApplePie
03-01-2009, 01:25 PM
I'm not too sure, I think Cutler looks like a nicely developing QB, and his attitude seems pretty impressive to me.

Shocked that the Broncos would entertain replacing him with Cassel. Are they stupid, or just bored during the offseason?

The Broncos will run the spread and Cassel is a much better fit for that system. Cutler is a gunslinger with a huge arm who isn't affraid to take chances.

I would love to see Culter as the Texans QB. We need a QB with an attituide

Honoring Earl 34
03-01-2009, 01:29 PM
The Broncos will run the spread and Cassel is a much better fit for that system. Cutler is a gunslinger with a huge arm who isn't affraid to take chances.

I would love to see Culter as the Texans QB. We need a QB with an attituide

Cassel is a Chief .

Maybe the Broncos can trade Cutler back to the state where he played his college ball . Maybe for the 3rd pick in the 2006 draft and a certain RB from Colorado .

The1ApplePie
03-01-2009, 01:43 PM
Cassel is a Chief .

Maybe the Broncos can trade Cutler back to the state where he played his college ball . Maybe for the 3rd pick in the 2006 draft and a certain RB from Colorado .

The Broncos were trying to trade for Cassel while trading Cutler someplace else from what I hear. The Chiefs beat them to the punch and cut out the middle man

Honoring Earl 34
03-01-2009, 01:51 PM
The Broncos were trying to trade for Cassel while trading Cutler someplace else from what I hear. The Chiefs beat them to the punch and cut out the middle man

I think it was Cassel to Denver , Cutler to Tampa , and Tampa's #1 to NE .

awtysst
03-10-2009, 11:12 PM
So, word here in Denver is that the Bronocs and Cutler had a phone conversation that was targeted at easing tensions. Apperently the conversation went badly and the gap is even bigger than before. Supposedly Cutler wants out if Denver will not commit to him longterm.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3968896

El Tejano
03-11-2009, 09:24 AM
Wow. This could change alot of things draft wise, if he were to get traded. What # does Denver pick?

GP
03-11-2009, 11:22 AM
I'm going to serve up my next prediction (I called the Orlovski signing, and I called Ward going to Tampa Bay, well before it happened).

Prediction: Coach and Quarterback will patch things up, it'll go down as one of those "We got to know each other, we're really a lot alike and this has made us better."

The coach screwed up. He came in acting like he was all that, and it backfired. He'll eat crow and doesn't want to start off his tenure on this sort of situation.

El Tejano
03-11-2009, 11:26 AM
If Cutler wants a trade after this...Phillip Rivers is right. Not saying he has no right to be upset but he has to realize that things like this are going to happen during coaching changes and that he has been in the league long enough to know that if playoffs don't happen for The Broncos, they will make any adjustment necessary.

Goldensilence
03-11-2009, 11:33 AM
If Cutler wants a trade after this...Phillip Rivers is right. Not saying he has no right to be upset but he has to realize that things like this are going to happen during coaching changes and that he has been in the league long enough to know that if playoffs don't happen for The Broncos, they will make any adjustment necessary.

Difference is I think Cutler has done his part and came into his own this year. Defense is the one that melted down during the last stretch of the season.

Maybe the HC thought he could swing a trade for his guy Cassell when he was on market, granted he was not going to get the deal KC got. Not sure I am sold on Cassell, but I guess we'll see what happens when he doesn't have Rand Moss to throw to in KC. All in all pretty stupid move for a first time HC.

Honoring Earl 34
03-11-2009, 02:02 PM
Cutler and Denver's 3rd for the #1 overall pick .... anyone ?

HOU-TEX
03-11-2009, 02:05 PM
Cutler and Denver's 3rd for the #1 overall pick .... anyone ?

I'm sure Detroit would like that, but I don't think anybody truly wants the #1 overall pick in the draft. $$$$$$$$

Texecutioner
03-11-2009, 03:23 PM
Difference is I think Cutler has done his part and came into his own this year. Defense is the one that melted down during the last stretch of the season.

Maybe the HC thought he could swing a trade for his guy Cassell when he was on market, granted he was not going to get the deal KC got. Not sure I am sold on Cassell, but I guess we'll see what happens when he doesn't have Rand Moss to throw to in KC. All in all pretty stupid move for a first time HC.

Totally agreed. Cutler had a really good season last year and was on the verge of being ELITE. He totally carried that team last season when they had no running game and no defense at all and the play calling wasn't really good either. I watched almost every Denver game of the season and followed them almost as much as the Texans because of all my fantasy players I had on Denver. If it wasn't for Cutler that team could have easily been like 4-12 or 5-11. Teams in the second half of the season just dropped their DB's back into zone coverage every game since they had no running attack and it made it tougher on the Broncos and the coordinators weren't using Sheffler enough.

I really wish since Kubiak loves Denver players so much, that he'd convince Mcnair and Smith to make a trade to get Cutler right now. Mcdaniel might see something in injury prone Shaub that they like to where they would do it. Cutler is already a better QB that Shaub and isn't injury prone like him either and has a much higher ceiling and not to mention is a year or two younger. Cutler TO Andre Johnson would be freaking awsome to watch.

Mr teX
03-11-2009, 03:48 PM
I think Cutler's still upset that Shanny got bounced. McDaniels trying to trade him just added fuel to that fire. I suspect something will go down with him next year. Kubiak will give up the 2010 1st rounder for him.........:)

GP
03-11-2009, 06:26 PM
Difference is I think Cutler has done his part and came into his own this year. Defense is the one that melted down during the last stretch of the season.

Maybe the HC thought he could swing a trade for his guy Cassell when he was on market, granted he was not going to get the deal KC got. Not sure I am sold on Cassell, but I guess we'll see what happens when he doesn't have Rand Moss to throw to in KC. All in all pretty stupid move for a first time HC.

I agree on this. Cutler looked good last season. The Broncos defense was absolutely awful.

Plus, people really need to stop referencing Phillip Rivers regarding him saying Cutler is a crybaby. I mean, it's Phillip. Rivers.

Rivers reminds me of the arrogant QB in high school who wore his letter jacket every day to school. He'd smack his bubble gum and walk down the hall with his arm around Cindy, the cheerleading captain...making snappy one-liners at the freaks and geeks as he passed them in the hall.

http://doubledown11.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/fred_obannion.jpg

awtysst
03-15-2009, 12:16 PM
So, according to Denver sports radio(and ESPN now too) Cutler and McDaniels FINALLY met face to face for the first time since their tiff.
On a positive note, they met here in Denver. On a negative note, apparently things did not go well and they actually got into a heated exchange of words. Cutler is looks like he will miss tomorrow's first team meeting.

On another note, Cutler has put his house here in Denver on the market.
He is asking $2mill for it. Good luck in the Denver market.

The1ApplePie
03-15-2009, 02:09 PM
So, according to Denver sports radio(and ESPN now too) Cutler and McDaniels FINALLY met face to face for the first time since their tiff.
On a positive note, they met here in Denver. On a negative note, apparently things did not go well and they actually got into a heated exchange of words. Cutler is looks like he will miss tomorrow's first team meeting.

On another note, Cutler has put his house here in Denver on the market.
He is asking $2mill for it. Good luck in the Denver market.

Bring him in Kubes!

The kid's arm doesn't fit the spread and his swagger certainly isn't in the Bill Belicheet kiss-ass category, so we may can get him cheap

sbalderrama
03-15-2009, 05:32 PM
On another note, Cutler has put his house here in Denver on the market.
He is asking $2mill for it. Good luck in the Denver market.


just so long as he doesn't get traded to Tenn or Jacksonville.

Napa Auto Parts
03-15-2009, 07:29 PM
Why cant we trade for him he already knows the system and its cutler he has a chance of being a top 4 qb in the leagaue

M.schaub and our 3rd rounder and our 6th rounder:whip:

Honoring Earl 34
03-15-2009, 08:11 PM
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/03/15/12197/

spurstexanstros
03-16-2009, 09:10 AM
Cutler wants out shold we trade Schaub for him?

TEXANRED
03-16-2009, 09:31 AM
Cutler wants out shold we trade Schaub for him?

Lets see, an average QB who can't stay on the field and seems to lack a competitive spirit, or a Pro bowl QB that threw for over 4k plus yards last year that has been able to stay pretty healthy.

Nothing against Schaub but I see DanO needing to play significant time this year and I just don't think I can take that this year.

So yes, Cutler for Schaub and I would even throw in Danny boy.

Drew_Smoke
03-16-2009, 09:57 AM
I'd give up Schaub for Cutler and a 3rd. If they say no...cool then you keep him.

If I was Fischer I'd offer up the all-world VY for Cutler and a 3rd. If they say no...then good luck with that.

GP
03-16-2009, 10:02 AM
My prediction is on the verge of failure.

As of Monday, Cutler is persistent that he's done in Denver.

There are WILDLY different stories from McDaniels and Cutler, regarding their sunday sitdown, and so I think it's clear that Cutler's sticking to his guns on this deal.

Also: We ain't trading for Cutler.

We could have, if we hadn't traded for Schaub. But that would have meant two years with Sage or someone else.

GP
03-16-2009, 10:03 AM
Cutler would do well in this offense, by the way.

I don't think there's any need to try and figure out who is better between Jay and Matt.

nunusguy
03-16-2009, 10:11 AM
It looks like they've got a real problem with this situation up in Denver ?
And I think Cutler is a tremendous talent, the best player from the 2006 Draft
in spite of some saying he's a whiner. This was a big-time blunder by this new
Broncos GM.
Somebdy will cough up a 1st round pick for him if Denver does in fact decide
to move him, and the way things are going they may have to do just that.

Mailman
03-16-2009, 10:12 AM
Where is this "Cutler and a third" stuff coming from? Offseason trade talk is a worthwhile pastime, but let's inject a little reason and common sense please.

I don't think Cutler is getting traded, but even if he were, the team trading for him isn't getting a third. They're getting a proven player at the most important position in the game, so they're the ones giving up multiple picks.

El Tejano
03-16-2009, 10:27 AM
I say the Jets go for him.

gary
03-16-2009, 10:38 AM
If I were Coach K. I'd try my best to talk Smith and McNair into letting injury prone MS go and then go after Jay.

Goldensilence
03-16-2009, 10:48 AM
If I were Coach K. I'd try my best to talk Smith and McNair into letting injury prone MS go and then go after Jay.

Be prepared to give up at least a 1 round pick in that deal. If we were a team that's closer to the Vikings who have just needed good QB to get to the next level I'd say make the deal. Problem is we have some many question marks on a young defense I'm not sure it would be worth it. We also need some depth on the Oline still and I'd like to see Meyers supplanted as the starter. He makes great depth though. If Matt Schaub can't go full time next year I'm expecting us to renegioate the three extension and look for a new QB. Of course that is assuming we don't spend a pick on a guy like Nate Davis this year.

Unless this team makes a severe regression next year I expect Kubiak back.

HoustonFrog
03-16-2009, 10:54 AM
Could both parties stories be anymore screwed up

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805

Cutlers

I went in there with every intention of solving the issue, being a Bronco, moving forward as a Bronco," Cutler said. "We weren't in there but about 20 minutes, [McDaniels] did most of the talking and as far as I'm concerned, he made it clear he wants his own guy. He admitted he wanted Matt Cassel because he said he has raised him up from the ground as a quarterback. He said he wasn't sorry about it. He made it clear that he could still entertain trading me because, as he put it, he'll do whatever he feels is in the best interest of the organization.

"At the end of the meeting, he wasn't like, 'Jay, I want you as our quarterback, you're our guy.' It felt like the opposite. He basically said that I needed to tell him if we can't work this out, to let him know," Cutler added. "I thought he was antagonizing me and that was disappointing because I was ready to move on, committed as a Bronco. Really, I figured we'd hash things out, shake hands, laugh a little and move forward. What happened [Saturday] was the last thing I expected. If I didn't think it could be fixed, I never would have come back to Denver. It was painfully obvious to me and Bus [Cook, his agent] it's not something they want to fix."

Consequently, Cutler instructed Cook, who also attended the meeting, to formally request a trade. The quarterback said he left town late Sunday and would skip McDaniels' first team meeting on Monday as they begin their offseason program.

Cutler won't be present at the team meeting.

"I certainly went back there, expecting I'd be there [Monday] but not now," Cutler said. "It's not mandatory. I'll attend every mandatory mini-camp and training camp but that's it. Really, it's best for me to move on. As coach said, he needs every eye in the meeting room to be on him and not me."

Cutler said: "You know, even after the meeting, I hung around town, kind of expecting him to call me and say, 'Hey, let's just me and you get away and have lunch or a cup of coffee' and mend things, but that didn't happen. So, I get it, really, it's a business. I'm disappointed beause I love being a Bronco but I think it's run its course."

Denvers

Broncos owner Pat Bowlen told the Denver Post on Sunday that he was disappointed with how Cutler has handled the situation. In a telephone interview with ESPN, McDaniels was reluctantly expansive on the story.

"I really have wanted to avoid a he-said, she-said thing but it's only fair for us to present the Bronco side of the story rather than let things get taken out of context," McDaniels said. "There's been a pattern here for the past two weeks the way things [have been represented] in our communications. I don't think anythng that happened [Saturday] was out of the ordinary. At the end of the meeting, Jay said he had thought about things quite a bit and requested a few more hours to mull things over. He said he wanted to talk to Bus on how to proceed. He was gonna call me on my cell phone and that never happened. Instead, Bus called [GM] Brian [Xanders].

"Again, I think that's been a pattern. I couldn't get [Cutler] to talk to me for two weeks or to talk to Mr. Bowlen. Then when he came here this weekend, we couldn't get a one-on-one meeting, just me and him alone. He wanted Bus in there, so I had Brian sit in, too. And it was the four of us. There wasn't any yelling, none of that. I can't believe we get to a totally different [interpretation].

It's an unfortunate set of circumstances that has cropped up, a potential distraction and we've done our best to limit that. The main message I want to get out is that we're excited to start our offseason program [Monday]. It's an exciting time for us."

gary
03-16-2009, 11:06 AM
Be prepared to give up at least a 1 round pick in that deal. If we were a team that's closer to the Vikings who have just needed good QB to get to the next level I'd say make the deal. Problem is we have some many question marks on a young defense I'm not sure it would be worth it. We also need some depth on the Oline still and I'd like to see Meyers supplanted as the starter. He makes great depth though. If Matt Schaub can't go full time next year I'm expecting us to renegioate the three extension and look for a new QB. Of course that is assuming we don't spend a pick on a guy like Nate Davis this year.

Unless this team makes a severe regression next year I expect Kubiak back.If MS doesn't play all sixteen games or most of them it will be time in 2010 to look for a new QB. I know that there are so many needs on the D side of the foottball but if we look for one next year there might not be a QB on the market but I don't think that it will happen and I am ok with having MS as the QB.

El Tejano
03-16-2009, 11:14 AM
There's one thing that Matt Schaub has that Cutler doesn't. Leadership. Matt Schaub's team really likes him and they play for him. He also demands they bring their level of play up as well, and they do for the most part.

This wouldn't happen for Cutler because he's sounding like Ryan Leaf. You can keep him and send him elsewhere.

GP
03-16-2009, 11:18 AM
IMO,

Whether you think Cutler is a whiner or not, a new coach coming into an established team cannot do what McDaniels did. And it wasn't him "evaluating" a trade offer that was wrong. Please continue to read along...

For all the dictator-like control that Bill exerts in New England, it has rubbed off on Charlie Weiss, Mangini, and McDaniels. Crennel is exempted because he appears to be a softy who can't govern at all.

Those three ex-Patriot coaches who have become head coaches have really tried to act like whatever they do is royal and golden. And that's because they think their Patriot accomplishments grant them immunity from being questioned on what to do. Which is all good and well, until his majesty thinks that this means that whatever pops into their head is automatically the best idea in the world. It's the Michael Scott syndrome, from the show "The Office."

The problem is that BILL can get away with this because BILL built the Patriots. The ex-coaches are trying to parlay it into what we see unfolding:

1. Weiss benefitted from Willingham's leftover regime, IMO, which explains his first-year success and subsequent downward spiral. Plus, a lot of people claim that he is an arrogant and insufferable horse patooty.

2. Mangini. What else is there to say? He ran the Jets like a KGB or Gestapo-controlled organization, and was a my-way-or-the-highway guy.

3. McDaniels did not blunder in listening to trade propositions. He messed up by not keeping Cutler in the loop, as well as by lying to Cutler by saying he had NOT been in trade talks. All this could have been avoided if McDaniels had met with arguably one of the best young QBs right off the bat, telling him "We have every interest in keeping you a Bronco. I will be up-front and say that I am at least going to LISTEN to trade propositions, and it's my duty to do such a thing no matter how interested or uninterested I am in trading any of my players, including you, for any players on any other roster out there. If there is a good proposition for anybody, including YOU, I will let you know and will talk with you and see how you feel about it. In short: You're the Broncos QB and we would work with you and hear you out on anything that might come up."

Could Cutler STILL be a horse's patooty about that way of wording it? Maybe. But don't you stand a better chance of striking the right tone, as a new coach, if you don't come in and screw things up the way he has? I'm 32 myself, and McDaniels made a maturity-related mistake. Now the whole team is focused on what's going to happen at QB when you arguably already had a pretty decent guy to begin with. They didn't have Kerry Collins. They didn't have Brian Griese. McDaniels had/has a suitable QB in Cutler, and this has blown up.

It doesn't matter if Cutler is blowing this out of proportion or not. It doesn't matter if McDaniels is a snake in the grass or not. What matters is what's in-between: A new coach, replacing arguably one of the best coaches in the NFL, should have met with Cutler beforehand and should have at least spent some meaningful time with your current franchise QB before hauling off on trade talks.

From this perspective, I believe that McDaniels did NOT want Cutler as his QB. He wanted Matt the whole time, and he was making a mission of getting it done. Even had he been able to swing the deal, it was still going to be a huge error in terms of (a) who Cutler is in the NFL QB world, and (b) the fallout from fans and players who would have seen Shanny ran off and now Cutler ran off.

The Bill Bilechick way of running a team only works if you're Bill Bilechick. The coaching tree is not shaping up well when compared to the Holmgren coaching tree out of Green Bay.

It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. The fact remains that a coach should be focused on fostering team unity, and starting this way with your current QB was the biggest new-to-the-job blunder you could have made. What's reality is not important when dealing with people, it's the PERCEPTION factor that reigns supreme.

And even though we don't know exactly what was said, what's your PERCEPTION of both guys? McDaniels is either shifty or he's "just doing his job, so get off his back!" and Cutler is either being a baby or he's right to stick to his guns on the loyalty issue. Like I said: It's shades of gray, and that means it's on the new coach's shoulders to make sure he does all that he can do to start off on the right foot.

IMO, McDaniels is as good at the perception game as Mangini was. Going to be a fun era for Broncos fans and players, eh?

El Tejano
03-16-2009, 11:21 AM
Noone else on the Broncos are crying. If anything a player should feel happy that he doesn't have to make the move. Play football and give it a try for a year. If you don't like it then, you can say you tried and it wasn't for you and that you being there isn't good for the organization. Then hopefully you can get traded.

HOU-TEX
03-16-2009, 11:41 AM
From what I've gathered, Cutler's agent Bus Cook is the one causing the problems. The rumor of a trade just fueled the fire, IMO. Cook is also Scheffter's agent, who has also refused to join the team in their "volunteery" workouts.

I think both McDaniels and Cutler are part of the blame, but Cook is likely the one stirring the pot. It's all about the $$$$$$

GP
03-16-2009, 11:42 AM
Noone else on the Broncos are crying. If anything a player should feel happy that he doesn't have to make the move. Play football and give it a try for a year. If you don't like it then, you can say you tried and it wasn't for you and that you being there isn't good for the organization. Then hopefully you can get traded.

That's all good and well unless you're a talented and high-profile QB in the NFL. For Cutler, I would imagine he tests out (on a personality test) as being a person who draws motivation and self-confidence by means of the following:

a. A pat on the back (physical affirmation)

b. A "You did a great job out there" (words of affirmation)

c. A sense of belonging (i.e. "I fit in this place. I am wanted here.")

There is definitely a money factor, but I think we're too quick to say that a player is always after the most money he can get. While he is inclined to get as much as he can, some players (remember: they ARE people first and foremost) who have certain personalities, place a huuuuuuge importance upon feeling that they are wanted where they are at.

I happen to be such a person. I can stand making a lot less money as long as I feel that my boss and my co-workers value me and want to see me walk through the door each day. A lot of you, on the other hand, could give a rat's rear about such nonsense: You want the bucks.

I think this is where things went poorly. McDaniels and Cutler are probably vastly different. Heck, Cutler might be vastly different than a lot of people.

I know that my personality type makes up the smallest percentage. In short: There's only four or five main personality types, and mine is the category that's shared by the smallest percentage of Americans: About 10%.

Cutler probably would have been good-to-go if he had been made to feel that he was wanted and valued. McDaniels hit the red button immediately, and Cutler sent his nukes right back at McDaniels. That's how I roll. I'm not looking for action, but if someone challenges me...it's on. That's why you see me get in some pretty intense wars on this board. I don't seek out the battles, but when someone throws down the gauntlet, I won't be bullied and told to back off.

In addition, if I'm working somewhere and it feels like I am just a cog in the machine, a number on the roster, or that I'm not fulfilling some unique role in my workplace...I look elsewhere for work. I'm not mad, and I'm not pouting about it. I just quietly leave. I just got a contract to come back and teach computer at a small school for what will be my 3rd straight year. My longest employment beforehand was 2 years. At the school where I teach, I am also the campus technician...I get to solve teachers' computer issues, upgrade systems, etc. I get lots of words of affirmation, lots of pats on the back, and not much salary. Yet I get up every day and can't wait to go to work. Some people think I'm a chump. Some people think I'm afraid to try anything big and profitable. All I know is that I am c-o-n-t-e-n-t.

So you see, it's all about what motivates you. For some people, the money is a distant second, or at least it's not the top priority. I imagine Jay Cutler wants to play somewhere that he feels wanted and valued.

And like I said: It doesn't matter who is wrong and who is right. The new coach screwed up, and so it's best if Cutler just moves on. And I'm sure the owner is none too thrilled that this is happening. McDaniels shot his wad, and now I expect that he will be held to even higher standard of accountability and production on the stats at the end of the season.

Hervoyel
03-16-2009, 11:50 AM
I stick with Schaub but that's just the way I'd play it. Kubiak tied his cart to giving up a pair of 2's for Schaub and I've seen nothing to convince me that he doesn't believe in him. Schaub has done two things that impact his status here and they fall on either side of the pro/con line. He's gotten better every single season since he arrived and we all know that the Kubiak regime places a lot of stock in that. That part is an obvious "pro". On the negative side he's missed games every one of those years.

What does Kubiak think about Schaub's missed time? That's the thing that matters and would decide something like this I believe. We know he loves the guy and thinks he can win with him. That's been made perfectly clear all along. The only thing that could be a problem is whether or not Schaub could stay on the field. If Kubiak thinks this is a problem then I doubt he'd hesitate to make the move regardless of what Schaub cost us.

On the other hand ditching Schaub and bringing in Cutler changes your teams chemistry and until you do it you won't know if it changes for the better. Schaub is well liked and I don't think we've got a lot of non-believers in the locker room. He's no David Carr in that respect. You never see Dunta or anyone else griping about him not taking his coaching or putting the time in. I think he's respected and when you make a move to replace a liked and respected member of your team there's always going to be some stress involved and maybe some fall out.

GP
03-16-2009, 11:51 AM
From what I've gathered, Cutler's agent Bus Cook is the one causing the problems. The rumor of a trade just fueled the fire, IMO. Cook is also Scheffter's agent, who has also refused to join the team in their "volunteery" workouts.

I think both McDaniels and Cutler are part of the blame, but Cook is likely the one stirring the pot. It's all about the $$$$$$

Maybe so.

I just look at the QUOTES from Cutler, and there's an intense frequency in terms of him mentioning "loyalty," and "betrayed," and other key words and phrases that give me the overwhelming sense that Cutler is truly bummed out that McDaniels did what he did.

A coach SHOULD entertain any and all trade offers or talk. So McDaniels isn't wrong in that sense. But the timing was poor, as was the way McDaniels and Cutler (to some degree) handled it afterward.

From a thousand-foot view, it looks (to me) like another ex-Patriot coach has tried to handle things the Bilechick way. Those guys spent lots of season operating within a bubble: Super Bowl titles, fame, complete control and dominance. What's been the success rate of those guys when they take on head coaching gigs? So, IMO, they've screwed things up for themselves. They tried to pull a Bill right away and it backfired.

This situation, alone, is probably THE prime example of it all.

Whether anybody thinks a coach should cow to a player, or not, it was in McDaniels best interest to slow down and think things out.

Texecutioner
03-16-2009, 11:57 AM
I stick with Schaub but that's just the way I'd play it. Kubiak tied his cart to giving up a pair of 2's for Schaub and I've seen nothing to convince me that he doesn't believe in him. Schaub has done two things that impact his status here and they fall on either side of the pro/con line. He's gotten better every single season since he arrived and we all know that the Kubiak regime places a lot of stock in that. That part is an obvious "pro". On the negative side he's missed games every one of those years.

What does Kubiak think about Schaub's missed time? That's the thing that matters and would decide something like this I believe. We know he loves the guy and thinks he can win with him. That's been made perfectly clear all along. The only thing that could be a problem is whether or not Schaub could stay on the field. If Kubiak thinks this is a problem then I doubt he'd hesitate to make the move regardless of what Schaub cost us.

On the other hand ditching Schaub and bringing in Cutler changes your teams chemistry and until you do it you won't know if it changes for the better. Schaub is well liked and I don't think we've got a lot of non-believers in the locker room. He's no David Carr in that respect. You never see Dunta or anyone else griping about him not taking his coaching or putting the time in. I think he's respected and when you make a move to replace a liked and respected member of your team there's always going to be some stress involved and maybe some fall out.

I don't know how many Broncs games you watched last season, but I watched almost every one and Cutler completely carried that entire team last season. Shaub doesn't have near the ceiling that Cutler does and Cutler doesn't have the injury concerns that Shaub does either. He is a lot more mobile and throws with more accuracy as well.

I hear what you're saying as far as what we have already committed in Shaub, but if there is an opportunity to get a franchise QB for the next ten years, then I would be all over this and I would cut bait with Shaub even though he has his own potential. I don't think there is one thing that Shaub is better at than Cutler and Cutler already knows this offense. He would be an immediate improvement and give this team a lot more swagger as well.

GP
03-16-2009, 12:05 PM
I don't know how many Broncs games you watched last season, but I watched almost every one and Cutler completely carried that entire team last season. Shaub doesn't have near the ceiling that Cutler does and Cutler doesn't have the injury concerns that Shaub does either. He is a lot more mobile and throws with more accuracy as well.

I hear what you're saying as far as what we have already committed in Shaub, but if there is an opportunity to get a franchise QB for the next ten years, then I would be all over this and I would cut bait with Shaub even though he has his own potential. I don't think there is one thing that Shaub is better at than Cutler and Cutler already knows this offense. He would be an immediate improvement and give this team a lot more swagger as well.

It'll never happen. Broncos would want more than just Schaub, if they even wanted him at all. Maybe a three-team-trade would work to that end, but the Kubiak regime tied itself to two straight 2nd rounders for Schaub.

Anybody here disagree that Schaub's trade value is currently weakened by his injuries up until this point? What we could get out of Schaub is going to be argued upon the basis of the location and frequency of those injuries. If he makes out of 2009 without a major injury and time missed, the dial might be turned back a bit. But right now, I don't think Matt Schaub would find a taker very easily.

When Gary Kubiak devotes himself to something, if it's working at least a little bit, he's sticking with it. He's not a risk taker, with the Schaub deal the exception to the rule.

If we had a palm reader, or a traveling gypsy, or maybe a way to time warp from two years ago into today's time...we could have made it with Sage or some other QB and then we would have done this deal, and it would have been done yesterday. But we played the cards we were dealt.

Just the absence of HWSNBN has improved this team, all by itself.

Texecutioner
03-16-2009, 12:09 PM
It'll never happen. Broncos would want more than just Schaub, if they even wanted him at all. Maybe a three-team-trade would work to that end, but the Kubiak regime tied itself to two straight 2nd rounders for Schaub.

Anybody here disagree that Schaub's trade value is currently weakened by his injuries up until this point? What we could get out of Schaub is going to be argued upon the basis of the location and frequency of those injuries. If he makes out of 2009 without a major injury and time missed, the dial might be turned back a bit. But right now, I don't think Matt Schaub would find a taker very easily.

When Gary Kubiak devotes himself to something, if it's working at least a little bit, he's sticking with it. He's not a risk taker, with the Schaub deal the exception to the rule.

If we had a palm reader, or a traveling gypsy, or maybe a way to time warp from two years ago into today's time...we could have made it with Sage or some other QB and then we would have done this deal, and it would have been done yesterday. But we played the cards we were dealt.

Just the absence of HWSNBN has improved this team, all by itself.

I wish I could disagree with you here, but yes you're right we will be stuck with Shaub as long as Kubes is here. Maybe it won't be a bad thing, now don't get me wrong, but I'm not sold on Shub until I can see a full season of him without being injured and a season where he throws close to 30 TD's. I want a QB that I know we'll have for the next ten years and I'm not sure that Shaub is that guy at this point. I know that Cutler will be that for any team that he is on.

I know we won't make a move like this though. Kubes will stick with Shaub.

Hervoyel
03-16-2009, 12:36 PM
I don't know how many Broncs games you watched last season, but I watched almost every one and Cutler completely carried that entire team last season. Shaub doesn't have near the ceiling that Cutler does and Cutler doesn't have the injury concerns that Shaub does either. He is a lot more mobile and throws with more accuracy as well.

I hear what you're saying as far as what we have already committed in Shaub, but if there is an opportunity to get a franchise QB for the next ten years, then I would be all over this and I would cut bait with Shaub even though he has his own potential. I don't think there is one thing that Shaub is better at than Cutler and Cutler already knows this offense. He would be an immediate improvement and give this team a lot more swagger as well.

That's fine. I just told you what I'd do.

I can name one thing that Schaub does better than Cutler just off the top of my head. "Not whine and let his agent turn a relatively small misstep into enormous upheaval that the team can ill afford".

Cutler is showing us all what he's about by the way he's going about pushing the Broncos into letting him out of there. It tells me that I'd be careful about bringing him into my locker room.

Texecutioner
03-16-2009, 12:59 PM
That's fine. I just told you what I'd do.

I can name one thing that Schaub does better than Cutler just off the top of my head. "Not whine and let his agent turn a relatively small misstep into enormous upheaval that the team can ill afford".

Cutler is showing us all what he's about by the way he's going about pushing the Broncos into letting him out of there. It tells me that I'd be careful about bringing him into my locker room.

Well, you and I have different takes on the situation then. I don't blame Cutler for this, because as well as he played in my opinion last season I wouldn't like it either if some rookie HC came in and tried to trade me and came in acting as arrogant as Mcdaniels has since he got hired either. I would be ticked off as well considering how I was the franchise QB and plan for the next ten years and some first year HC comes in and misleads me and also tries to trade me.

I think Cutler is a very good leader and showed it all season last year personally, he is just very head strong and obviously hates Mcdaniels and wants no part of having to play for the guy.

We obviously have two different takes on this issue between Cutler and Mcdaniels, but Cutler is going to be a hell of a QB for many many years and for all we know next season Shaub could go down again and we're using the back up for half the season again and looking for a new QB again. I hope that isn't the case, but it is certainly something to consider. I'm just piping off any way, because I know the Texans won't do this.

gary
03-16-2009, 01:43 PM
Well, you and I have different takes on the situation then. I don't blame Cutler for this, because as well as he played in my opinion last season I wouldn't like it either if some rookie HC came in and tried to trade me and came in acting as arrogant as Mcdaniels has since he got hired either. I would be ticked off as well considering how I was the franchise QB and plan for the next ten years and some first year HC comes in and misleads me and also tries to trade me.

I think Cutler is a very good leader and showed it all season last year personally, he is just very head strong and obviously hates Mcdaniels and wants no part of having to play for the guy.

We obviously have two different takes on this issue between Cutler and Mcdaniels, but Cutler is going to be a hell of a QB for many many years and for all we know next season Shaub could go down again and we're using the back up for half the season again and looking for a new QB again. I hope that isn't the case, but it is certainly something to consider. I'm just piping off any way, because I know the Texans won't do this.Agree. MS has hit his peek I think. I hope that I am worng but I don't see him playing a full season next season. MS is good don't get me wrong when he is out there on the field but last season but Jay was great and almost elite when MS was out half of the time last season. How many Pro Bowls has MS been to in his career? None. When Jay has been to one already in just his second season alone and that should tell you what kind of QB he is over Matt.

WesmanTexanfan
03-16-2009, 01:54 PM
He is being a Baby....

infantrycak
03-16-2009, 02:21 PM
On the other hand ditching Schaub and bringing in Cutler changes your teams chemistry and until you do it you won't know if it changes for the better. Schaub is well liked and I don't think we've got a lot of non-believers in the locker room. He's no David Carr in that respect. You never see Dunta or anyone else griping about him not taking his coaching or putting the time in. I think he's respected and when you make a move to replace a liked and respected member of your team there's always going to be some stress involved and maybe some fall out.

100% agreed. I don't think there is any question in the offense's mind and they want Schaub in there. They would recover from bringing in Cutler but it would be a set back.

He is a lot more mobile and throws with more accuracy as well.

By what standard is Cutler more accurate? His completion % is lower, his yards per attempt is lower and he didn't throw completions down field at the rate Schaub did. Cutler completed 33% of the balls he sent more than 20 yards in the air while Schaub completed 47% of his over 20 yard attempts.

Specnatz
03-16-2009, 02:24 PM
I wish I could disagree with you here, but yes you're right we will be stuck with Shaub as long as Kubes is here. Maybe it won't be a bad thing, now don't get me wrong, but I'm not sold on Shub until I can see a full season of him without being injured and a season where he throws close to 30 TD's. I want a QB that I know we'll have for the next ten years and I'm not sure that Shaub is that guy at this point. I know that Cutler will be that for any team that he is on.

I know we won't make a move like this though. Kubes will stick with Shaub.

http://www.nfl.com/players/mattschaub/profile?id=SCH085186

By the way his name is

Matt Schaub

Htownsportsfan
03-16-2009, 02:30 PM
I know Cutler has a ton of potential but the childish manner in which he has handled this would cause me concern if I were interested in him. Did it hurt his feelings? I am sure it did but rather than sit down with the coach and discuss it and try and move past it he is throwing a fit and demanding a trade. I hope they trade him to a piss poor franchise and he toils in failure!

Htownsportsfan
03-16-2009, 02:32 PM
100% agreed. I don't think there is any question in the offense's mind and they want Schaub in there. They would recover from bringing in Cutler but it would be a set back.



By what standard is Cutler more accurate? His completion % is lower, his yards per attempt is lower and he didn't throw completions down field at the rate Schaub did. Cutler completed 33% of the balls he sent more than 20 yards in the air while Schaub completed 47% of his over 20 yard attempts.


There you go using facts again!

El Tejano
03-16-2009, 02:47 PM
Alot of people are pointing blame on the coach, and Jay "Cuddler". However, where's the owner in all this. Let's take a trip down memory lane:

Owner: I need a new coach, I already got a QB that I just spend millions on. After looking over the tape can you do something with this kid?

Coach prospect 1: I don't think I can. He's beyond hope.
Coach prospect 2: I don't think I can. I do know of a vet QB who played for me before. he'd be real good.
Coach prospect 3: I can't. I wanna draft my own guy.
Coach prospect 4: I'll give it a good try. You want a head coach. I want to be one. It's your team and I will show you that you can trust me by giving you an evaluation of what I think after that.

Owner: Prospects 1,2,and 3 thanks but no thanks. Gary you got the job.

Where is the owner? He aint showing any loyalty. I could understand if Cuddler was some crummy QB but as whiney as he is, he has some credentials. The owner should've made this very clear that he wants Cutler to play out his contract.

Mcnair was crazy for renewing hwnsnbm's contract but at least he made his decision and stuck with it and went from there.

Texecutioner
03-16-2009, 02:55 PM
100% agreed. I don't think there is any question in the offense's mind and they want Schaub in there. They would recover from bringing in Cutler but it would be a set back.



By what standard is Cutler more accurate? His completion % is lower, his yards per attempt is lower and he didn't throw completions down field at the rate Schaub did. Cutler completed 33% of the balls he sent more than 20 yards in the air while Schaub completed 47% of his over 20 yard attempts.

A lot of that had to do with the fact that teams were in zone coverages all season long against the Broncos because their running game was inconsistent making it more difficult to throw the ball in a lot of games and Denver had to play from behind a lot. Cutler throws a much nicer ball though. He has more zip on his passes and a much stronger arm.

Cutler carried the Broncos team all season long last year. Schaub didn't carry the Texans at all last season or the season prior. He was hurt for a good part of both seasons and having AJ sure as hell made him look a lot better than he was. Schaub still has potential and all, but not near as much as Cutler does.

Texecutioner
03-16-2009, 02:57 PM
http://www.nfl.com/players/mattschaub/profile?id=SCH085186

By the way his name is

Matt Schaub

Gee, that was a great post. Don't make a point at all, just act as the spelling police and post just to post Specnatz.

gary
03-16-2009, 03:05 PM
A lot of that had to do with the fact that teams were in zone coverages all season long against the Broncos because their running game was inconsistent making it more difficult to throw the ball in a lot of games and Denver had to play from behind a lot. Cutler throws a much nicer ball though. He has more zip on his passes and a much stronger arm.

Cutler carried the Broncos team all season long last year. Schaub didn't carry the Texans at all last season or the season prior. He was hurt for a good part of both seasons and having AJ sure as hell made him look a lot better than he was. Schaub still has potential and all, but not near as much as Cutler does.If he does stay with Denver and the team does gain a running game look out.

Texecutioner
03-16-2009, 03:08 PM
If he does stay with Denver and the team does gain a running game look out.

Well they have a lot of work to do on the defense as well Gary. That was their biggest problem last season. Their D was just like ours was, but actually worse. The fact that Denver went 8-8 last season was pretty good in my opinion.

Specnatz
03-16-2009, 03:08 PM
Gee, that was a great post. Don't make a point at all, just act as the spelling police and post just to post Specnatz.

Yes it was a great post I agree. Matt has been here for two years you would think a true Texans fan would at least care enough to spell his name right.

Why would I even try and make a point because Herv and Infantry have tried and they bring facts in that contradict what you have stated. You then have to make a bunch of excuses to try and make your point.

Texecutioner
03-16-2009, 03:13 PM
Yes it was a great post I agree. Matt has been here for two years you would think a true Texans fan would at least care enough to spell his name right.

Why would I even try and make a point because Herv and Infantry have tried and they bring facts in that contradict what you have stated. You then have to make a bunch of excuses to try and make your point.

How about trying to make a point of your own? Names of players aren't exactly words people spell on a regular basis. Who gives a rat's ass if he is a Texan's player or a GB player? You get the point, but just have nothing to add so you want to run around acting like a spelling nazi.

And as far as Cutler, I'll just assume that you haven't watched him since you haven't even added anything other than using Icak as your speaker.

El Tejano
03-16-2009, 03:15 PM
Jay Cuddler is attempting Ryan Leaf type attitude.

gary
03-16-2009, 03:19 PM
Well they have a lot of work to do on the defense as well Gary. That was their biggest problem last season. Their D was just like ours was, but actually worse. The fact that Denver went 8-8 last season was pretty good in my opinion.But I think on that side of the football they'd be set though.

Texecutioner
03-16-2009, 03:23 PM
But I think on that side of the football they'd be set though.

Yeah, they were good on offense last season, it was just that their running game was inconsistent because at the end of the season they were on like their 10th RB. Lol!

Jay Cutler was like 11-1 I believe when his defense gave up less than 24 points. That is one hell of a stat for a 3 year QB that has had a really poor defense and inconsistent running game.

gary
03-16-2009, 03:28 PM
Amen.

Specnatz
03-16-2009, 04:02 PM
How about trying to make a point of your own? Names of players aren't exactly words people spell on a regular basis. Who gives a rat's ass if he is a Texan's player or a GB player? You get the point, but just have nothing to add so you want to run around acting like a spelling nazi.

And as far as Cutler, I'll just assume that you haven't watched him since you haven't even added anything other than using Icak as your speaker.

Do you nappy time or something?

Here is a point, Cutler has won nothing and is acting like a baby about this. NFL = Not For Long Trades are discussed all the time in all major sports and to act like a 3 year old little baby is not being a team leader. Kinda like someone else, well you get the point. I do not care about the talent because if you have all the talent in the world and nothing between the ears it is worthless.

You mention Schaub did not carry the team, well then who did? A rookie RB? Yes we have AJ on the team, but we did worse when Rosenfail and YKW were there and the team was losing at rate faster than the Dow is falling. The team is firmly behind Schaub and the way they act when he is in the game is light years better than when anyone else was at the helm.

Texecutioner
03-16-2009, 04:17 PM
Here is a point, Cutler has won nothing and is acting like a baby about this. NFL = Not For Long Trades are discussed all the time in all major sports and to act like a 3 year old little baby is not being a team leader. Kinda like someone else, well you get the point. I do not care about the talent because if you have all the talent in the world and nothing between the ears it is worthless.

Cutler took a team that could have easily been 4-12 to 8-8. You would have had to have watched a ton of Denver games to see how well he played despite the team's circumstances. It was sort of like Domanick Davis's year here when we went 2-14 and he barely had over 1,000 yards which was his most impressive season in MY opinion. If you looked at his stats they weren't that impressive, but if you watched every Texans game and saw how we had no passing game to help out the running game and horrid run blocking, you'd be thoroughly impressed in the fact that Domanick Davis was even able to squeeze out 1,000 yards despite all of that. A fan that barely watched the Texans though wouldn't have been that impressed with how he played just by looking at stats and the team's record. Cutler carried that team on his back all season. I loved watching him and Big Ben every week last season. Big Ben is another QB that had really poor stats but still had a great season if you watched at how he carried the offense on his back despite such a poor O line.

You mention Schaub did not carry the team, well then who did? A rookie RB?

Yes, Slaton and AJ did. How can you even remotely say that Schaub carried this offense when he played horrible the first few games and then got hurt for a good part of the season? He played really well at times, but he didn't CARRY the Texans at all. Not in any way at all. He threw to the best WR in the league and AJ made Schaub look a lot better than he was in many games with some of those crazy catches that no other WR could have made.

Yes we have AJ on the team, but we did worse when Rosenfail and YKW were there and the team was losing at rate faster than the Dow is falling. The team is firmly behind Schaub and the way they act when he is in the game is light years better than when anyone else was at the helm.

Well yes, he did finally PROVE that he was a better QB than Rosenfels, but that isn't saying much. Let me remind you that Sage was and is a career back up so saying one QB played better than him isn't exactly a great compliment.

A QB that was a back up before he got here and in his first two seasons gets hurt for a decent amount of time has some injury questions and it isn't exactly the best feeling you know. I hope that Schaub becomes a great QB, and all but he doesn't have the same ceiling as Cutler. Again, Cutler is 11-1 when his team gives up less than 24 points a game. I'll take that any day.

Polo
03-16-2009, 04:22 PM
I understand Cutler's frustration...

From the sounds of it he was ready to smooth it over, but the head coach came off like a jack ass when they met. If Cutler doesn't think that this guy has his best interest in mind I don't fault him for wanting out. He should be held in more regard than any ol player on that team and if the coach isn't willing to give him his respect then someone else will.

Hooston Texan
03-16-2009, 04:24 PM
Again, Cutler is 11-1 when his team gives up less than 24 points a game. I'll take that any day.

Even against Matt's 9-0 record when his team gives up fewer than 24 points in a game? Try again.

A few other points:

1. Schaub's record as a starter in the last two years: 10-12. If you throw out his two Tennessee starts in 2007 when he left with the game in doubt (in other words, under MLB rules for when a starting pitcher gets a decision), he's 10-10. Cutler's record: 15-17. Keep in mind that we play in a far superior division than Cutler does.

2. Schaub threw 380 passes last year; Cutler threw 616. Here's how Matt's adjusted numbers compare with Cutler once you equalize their attempts:

Schaub: 407-616, 4928 yards, 24 TDs, 16 ints.
Cutler: 384-616, 4526 yards, 25 TDs, 18 ints.

3. Cutler arguably had a better running game supporting him last year than Schaub did. The per game average for each team was within a yard of each other (Denver 116 ypg to our 115), but Denver's backs averaged 4.8 yards per carry while ours averaged 4.3.

4. I think we all agree that Matt would absolutely never play the prima donna act that Cutler has unleashed the last few weeks. Cutler's tantrum boils down to this: "How dare you consider trading me!" He's putting himself above the GM and the coach: that's pretty ballsy when you're Brett Favre; it's unbelievable when you sport a 15-17 NFL record and your career record after high school is 28-55.*

Don't get me wrong: Cutler is a fine player, and if a desperate Bronco brass approached me about a straight-up Schaub for Cutler swap, I'd have to consider it. He's two years younger, has a stronger arm (though that's a trait I don't put much value on for QBs) and is better able to elude a pass rush than Schaub. But do I want to unleash this 25-year-old tyrant on my locker room when I've already got a guy the team respects and has responded to? There's the rub.

* OK, I admit that is a cheap shot since Cutler played at Vanderbilt. But if the guy is a "winner", it certainly is not reflected in his record.

eriadoc
03-16-2009, 04:44 PM
I'd take Cutler over Schaub in almost any scenario. The one scenario I would not do so is one in which the head coach is nearing the end of his contract, has already invested quite a lot in the existing QB, the existing QB has shown he can play well, and the team is ready to compete for a playoff berth. Bringing Cutler in under those circumstances would be a setback.

In any other circumstance, I'd roll the dice with Cutler. JMO.

GuerillaBlack
03-16-2009, 04:51 PM
I'd take Cutler over Schaub in almost any scenario. The one scenario I would not do so is one in which the head coach is nearing the end of his contract, has already invested quite a lot in the existing QB, the existing QB has shown he can play well, and the team is ready to compete for a playoff berth. Bringing Cutler in under those circumstances would be a setback.

In any other circumstance, I'd roll the dice with Cutler. JMO.

I see what you did there. I like that. I like it a lot.

infantrycak
03-16-2009, 06:19 PM
A lot of that had to do with the fact that teams were in zone coverages all season long against the Broncos because their running game was inconsistent making it more difficult to throw the ball in a lot of games and Denver had to play from behind a lot. Cutler throws a much nicer ball though. He has more zip on his passes and a much stronger arm.

Nicer means crap if the WR doesn't catch the ball. It is demonstrable WR's catch Schaub's long balls better than Cutler's. Make excuses all you want. Manning throws an ugly ball and yet is very accurate. Throwing a gorgeous ball that lands 5 yards from the WR means crap.

Ckw
03-16-2009, 06:22 PM
Nicer means crap if the WR doesn't catch the ball. It is demonstrable WR's catch Schaub's long balls better than Cutler's. Make excuses all you want. Manning throws an ugly ball and yet is very accurate. Throwing a gorgeous ball that lands 5 yards from the WR means crap.

For every Manning there's a Favre. Cutler could become Favre 2.0.

Sure he might throw some picks, but he will throw a lot of TDs too. I'm not saying Cutler will be this good, but he has the arm strength to do so and was one of the best QBs in the league last season.

GuerillaBlack
03-16-2009, 06:32 PM
I personally think Cutler will get much better. He's still developing and is still young. Schaub on the other hand is pretty much set, besides a couple of tweaks and staying healthy.

gary
03-16-2009, 06:51 PM
I personally think Cutler will get much better. He's still developing and is still young. Schaub on the other hand is pretty much set, besides a couple of tweaks and staying healthy.I second this I've said this before in one of my other posts MS is at his high level already and Jay is good and still growing stats don't always mean everything I'm not saying I'm just saying.

TimeKiller
03-16-2009, 07:04 PM
Wow, I thought Schaub showed a pretty fair amount of improvement last season.

Ckw
03-16-2009, 07:06 PM
I second this I've said this before in one of my other posts MS is at his high level already and Jay is good and still growing stats don't always mean everything I'm not saying I'm just saying.

Yeah, I agree that Cutler is still going to get better, but I do think the same can be said for Schaub. I think both will get better; Cutler has the higher ceiling.

gary
03-16-2009, 07:12 PM
Yeah, I agree that Cutler is still going to get better, but I do think the same can be said for Schaub. I think both will get better; Cutler has the higher ceiling.Schaub wll get better but I think Jay will get much better.

Ckw
03-16-2009, 07:12 PM
Schaubrwll get better but I Jay will get much better.

Exactly.

Second Honeymoon
03-16-2009, 07:13 PM
as so succinctly put by eriadoc earlier in this thread, Cutler to the Texans just isn't in the cards. We are too close with too much invested in Schaub to pull the trigger on this. Maybe if the Broncos gave us a 2nd Rounder and Cutler, maybe I would trade Schaub...and that aint happenin either.

Cutler on an open trading market sounds good in theory but there are so few takers right now..especially if Denver is dealing from a position of perceived weakness (unhappy and disgruntled player).

The teams that make sense right now to chase Cutler would be:

NY Jets - Huge void at QB but does he fit the mold of QB that Ryan wants in New York?

Miami Dolphins - When Cutler arrives in his new town, he needs a coach who can protect him from all the BS. The price could be right.

Cleveland Browns - The Broncos may feel the Browns are attractive trade partner as they could trade possibly their first rounder and Brady Quinn and/or Anderson for Cutler.

San Francisco 49ers - This is where I think he should try and go. Under Singletary and in a weak division, their heart could be restored to that once proud franchise. If Mike can't give them heart, no one can.

Chicago Bears - Best chance of him going here when you look purely at how this is the Bears perfect opportunity to address the QB once and for all with a proven commodity. It also makes sense for the Broncos because they get him out of the AFC. He has proven he can play in the cold and gives the Bears instant legitimacy as NFC contender. The Bears GM should be on the phone right now offering them their 1st Rounder for Cutler.

Detroit Lions - I think they will just roll with Stafford but who knows? Maybe the Lions could give that early 2nd and 3rd Rounder to the Broncos for Cutler and use their 1st Overall Pick on someone else.

GO MATTY

Ckw
03-16-2009, 07:17 PM
as so succinctly put by eriadoc earlier in this thread, Cutler to the Texans just isn't in the cards. We are too close with too much invested in Schaub to pull the trigger on this. Maybe if the Broncos gave us a 2nd Rounder and Cutler, maybe I would trade Schaub...and that aint happenin either.

Cutler on an open trading market sounds good in theory but there are so few takers right now..especially if Denver is dealing from a position of perceived weakness (unhappy and disgruntled player).

The teams that make sense right now to chase Cutler would be:

NY Jets - Huge void at QB but does he fit the mold of QB that Ryan wants in New York?

Miami Dolphins - When Cutler arrives in his new town, he needs a coach who can protect him from all the BS. The price could be right.

Cleveland Browns - The Broncos may feel the Browns are attractive trade partner as they could trade possibly their first rounder and Brady Quinn and/or Anderson for Cutler.

San Francisco 49ers - This is where I think he should try and go. Under Singletary and in a weak division, their heart could be restored to that once proud franchise. If Mike can't give them heart, no one can.

Chicago Bears - Best chance of him going here when you look purely at how this is the Bears perfect opportunity to address the QB once and for all with a proven commodity. It also makes sense for the Broncos because they get them out of their division. He has proven he can play in the cold and gives the Bears instant legitimacy as NFC contender. The Bears GM should be on the phone right now offering them their 1st Rounder for Cutler.

Detroit Lions

Good post. I also think Schaub is better for our offense because we run a lot more of the short slant routes and want to control the game running the ball. Cutler needs to have an offense built around him and his strengths.

gary
03-16-2009, 07:18 PM
It won't happen and I am quite ok with it but it'd be sweeter if it did.

mattieuk
03-16-2009, 07:43 PM
Man...this is the kind of off season thread I've been missing for the last half a year! Fantastic stuff guys, keep it going!

First off, Cutler is never, never, never going to be in Houston uniform next year. Kubiak's boy is Matty. I can picture the love ins they have watching game film together, trying to help improve Schaub's game. Smithiak have place their jobs and reputation pretty much squarely on Matt becoming the a very good QB for us, and when he has a healthy year, I think that will become pretty apparent.

However, as it is still months away from much exciting happening other than the draft, I'll entertain the delusional idea that a Schaub for Cutler trade is on the table...

I like Schaub a lot, he has got a lot of upside, and when he can stay healthy, he will be posting some pretty impressive figures. I like Cutler a lot, he's strong, he makes some nice plays, and is generally just a fun QB to watch. However, Schaub has been invested in by the Texans, he has the 2 years of working with AJ, OD and co. Underlining factor for me is, 'it ain't broke, so don't try to fix it'. We have a solid QB, we have a solid home run hitting HB, we have a solid FB, we have a solid receiving TE, we have a solid Pro-Bowl receiver, we have solid #2 and #3 receivers. We don't need replacements for these guys. Their starting positions are fine. Depth is another issue, but as for these guys stepping out onto the field, don't change that.

Cutler will make a great QB either at Denver or somewhere else, but it won't be at Houston.

The1ApplePie
03-16-2009, 10:37 PM
Culter is a beast with a crazy and unreliable WR

Matt Schaub is an average QB that throws to the best WR in football.

Culter has talent, Matt Schaub has Andre Johnson

I'd give up a 1st for Cutler. Cutler + AJ + Slaton = the new triplets

First off, Cutler is never, never, never going to be in Houston uniform next year. Kubiak's boy is Matty. I can picture the love ins they have watching game film together, trying to help improve Schaub's game. Smithiak have place their jobs and reputation pretty much squarely on Matt becoming the a very good QB for us, and when he has a healthy year, I think that will become pretty apparent.

A guy quits being your quy in the NFL as soon as you get something better. Loyalty is fleeting compared to elite talent. This goes for any sport

GuerillaBlack
03-16-2009, 10:59 PM
Damn, I really would not mind trading for Cutler. It's the age and ceiling that is getting me. Probably won't happen, but I'd do it in maybe two heartbeats.

awtysst
03-16-2009, 11:08 PM
Take it from a guy who lives in Denver (at least at the moment) and has seen Cutler's play pretty closely. While Cutler is a great QB he is the WRONG QB for our system.

We need as QB that manages a game, makes the short accurate passes, and understands the importance of a solid running game. In our type of offense we utilize short strikes and runs to wear down the opposing D, wind down the clock, and advance down the field. We generally don't throw long(maybe once or twice to keep the D honest). Schaub is a good QB for this system. He makes smart reads, is accurate and places the ball in the right spot. Most importantly, he does not try to take over a game.

On the other hand, Cutler likes to throw down the field. He likes to chuck the ball all over the field and likes to get creative. He likes to try to split defenders and throw off his backfoot. He is prone to INTs and making bad decisions with the football.

Here is another way to think about it. Joe Montana and Brett Favre are the HOF QBs(or Favre will be in a few years). Favre would have been horrible in a West Coast offense because it does not utilize his skillset to the best. (While Holgrim was a disciple, the Packers did not have their success until Favre started chucking the ball all over the field). You could make the same argument for Montana. Put him in another system and he isnt the same guy. Each system suited the QB the best. Just like Schaub is suited for a West coast style offense and Cutler is not.

El Tejano
03-16-2009, 11:21 PM
With Cutler, you face the diabetes thing. He battles that big time. When weather changes or he isn't feeling good, or even gets cut, the dudes energy and strength is going to get sucked out of him. It has before.

Specnatz
03-16-2009, 11:32 PM
Culter is a beast with a crazy and unreliable WR

Matt Schaub is an average QB that throws to the best WR in football.

Culter has talent, Matt Schaub has Andre Johnson

I'd give up a 1st for Cutler. Cutler + AJ + Slaton = the new triplets

A guy quits being your quy in the NFL as soon as you get something better. Loyalty is fleeting compared to elite talent. This goes for any sport

You forgot that Schaub made OD an all-pro and that Walter had more yards and more TD than OD. I mean hell only a really average QB could do that. Not to mention turning a WR group, who every damn single person on this board thought sucked into one of the most feared. Yeah just an average QB who throws only to the best WR in the league does that. Why is it that Lienart could not do with Fitzgerald what Warner could do, I mean Leinart is just your average QB right?

This is probably the single most unintelligent argument that has been presented on this board in two years.

GuerillaBlack
03-16-2009, 11:42 PM
I think part of it is people wanting that big name QB that Cutler kinda is.

mexican_texan
03-16-2009, 11:58 PM
Schaub has a better future in the NFL. He's more accurate, makes smarter throws, and doesn't throw it up there Favre style in crunch time.

The Pencil Neck
03-17-2009, 12:55 AM
Take it from a guy who lives in Denver (at least at the moment) and has seen Cutler's play pretty closely. While Cutler is a great QB he is the WRONG QB for our system.

We need as QB that manages a game, makes the short accurate passes, and understands the importance of a solid running game. In our type of offense we utilize short strikes and runs to wear down the opposing D, wind down the clock, and advance down the field. We generally don't throw long(maybe once or twice to keep the D honest). Schaub is a good QB for this system. He makes smart reads, is accurate and places the ball in the right spot. Most importantly, he does not try to take over a game.

On the other hand, Cutler likes to throw down the field. He likes to chuck the ball all over the field and likes to get creative. He likes to try to split defenders and throw off his backfoot. He is prone to INTs and making bad decisions with the football.

Here is another way to think about it. Joe Montana and Brett Favre are the HOF QBs(or Favre will be in a few years). Favre would have been horrible in a West Coast offense because it does not utilize his skillset to the best. (While Holgrim was a disciple, the Packers did not have their success until Favre started chucking the ball all over the field). You could make the same argument for Montana. Put him in another system and he isnt the same guy. Each system suited the QB the best. Just like Schaub is suited for a West coast style offense and Cutler is not.


I think you're a little off with the description of our offense as well as some of your history (like when Favre and Young said that their playbooks were so similar they could have switched teams and gone in and played.)

Our offense stretches the field a LOT more than you think it does. We throw more deep balls than many offenses. And Schaub is really good at stretching the field. He's pretty accurate down the field. Cutler isn't as accurate down the field as Schaub is.

Schaub is perfect for our offense because of how good his play fakes are. I don't know about Cutler's play fakes, I don't recall them being all that great. Our offense is designed to base everything off the run including most of our passing plays.

The only issue I have with Schaub is the durability issue. If he plays a full 16 game season and is healthy for those games, he'll end up an elite QB. My fear is that he's a variation of Chris Chandelier. But I'm hoping he's not.

EDIT: And I meant to say that Cutler, otoh, doesn't seem to have those durability issues. AND, he doesn't seem to have the problem holding onto the ball when he's hit that Schaub has.

gary
03-17-2009, 09:18 AM
I think part of it is people wanting that big name QB that Cutler kinda is.I think you're are right GB. I am hoping that Matt does grow a little more and he does become an All Star QB and a known name around the league but in order for that to happen he has to stay healthy.

Vinny
03-17-2009, 10:52 AM
Take it from a guy who lives in Denver (at least at the moment) and has seen Cutler's play pretty closely. While Cutler is a great QB he is the WRONG QB for our system.

We need as QB that manages a game, makes the short accurate passes, and understands the importance of a solid running game. In our type of offense we utilize short strikes and runs to wear down the opposing D, wind down the clock, and advance down the field. We generally don't throw long(maybe once or twice to keep the D honest). Schaub is a good QB for this system. He makes smart reads, is accurate and places the ball in the right spot. Most importantly, he does not try to take over a game.

On the other hand, Cutler likes to throw down the field. He likes to chuck the ball all over the field and likes to get creative. He likes to try to split defenders and throw off his backfoot. He is prone to INTs and making bad decisions with the football.

Here is another way to think about it. Joe Montana and Brett Favre are the HOF QBs(or Favre will be in a few years). Favre would have been horrible in a West Coast offense because it does not utilize his skillset to the best. (While Holgrim was a disciple, the Packers did not have their success until Favre started chucking the ball all over the field). You could make the same argument for Montana. Put him in another system and he isnt the same guy. Each system suited the QB the best. Just like Schaub is suited for a West coast style offense and Cutler is not.
um, I'd disagree with almost all of this. Favre played in a wco most of his career and when you watch Cutler it is pretty much exactly what Shanahan had Elway do as far as throwing all over the field and across the field deep. That was more coaching than Cutler imo.

HoustonFrog
03-17-2009, 11:10 AM
I think you're a little off with the description of our offense as well as some of your history (like when Favre and Young said that their playbooks were so similar they could have switched teams and gone in and played.)

Our offense stretches the field a LOT more than you think it does. We throw more deep balls than many offenses. And Schaub is really good at stretching the field. He's pretty accurate down the field. Cutler isn't as accurate down the field as Schaub is.

Schaub is perfect for our offense because of how good his play fakes are. I don't know about Cutler's play fakes, I don't recall them being all that great. Our offense is designed to base everything off the run including most of our passing plays.

The only issue I have with Schaub is the durability issue. If he plays a full 16 game season and is healthy for those games, he'll end up an elite QB. My fear is that he's a variation of Chris Chandelier. But I'm hoping he's not.

EDIT: And I meant to say that Cutler, otoh, doesn't seem to have those durability issues. AND, he doesn't seem to have the problem holding onto the ball when he's hit that Schaub has.

I disagree with his thoughts too and agree with you that the Texans actually rely on the long ball much more than he thinks. In fact that was the problem with Carr. He couldn't utilize the long ball and dumped too quickly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Texans had one of the higher yards per completion stats out there. I'm not saying I want Cutler at all because I think Schaub fits from a standpoint of his place on the team but Cutler could play here.

gary
03-17-2009, 11:21 AM
You bet he could.

infantrycak
03-17-2009, 11:28 AM
I disagree with his thoughts too and agree with you that the Texans actually rely on the long ball much more than he thinks. In fact that was the problem with Carr. he couldn't utilize the long ball and dumped too quickly. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but the texans had one of the higher years per completion stats out there.

Schaub was 2nd in the league last year to Rivers on yards per attempt. He was also 2nd in the league on % of 1st downs per attempt, once again to Rivers. Missing 5 games, Schaub was still 10th on number of big plays (over 25 yards) with 24--a big play on 6.3% of attempts. Cutler had 29 with 62% more passing attempts--a big play on 4.7% of attempts.

El Tejano
03-17-2009, 11:44 AM
Schaub doesn't cry, Cuddler does.

HoustonFrog
03-17-2009, 12:08 PM
Schaub was 2nd in the league last year to Rivers on yards per attempt. He was also 2nd in the league on % of 1st downs per attempt, once again to Rivers. Missing 5 games, Schaub was still 10th on number of big plays (over 25 yards) with 24--a big play on 6.3% of attempts. Cutler had 29 with 62% more passing attempts--a big play on 4.7% of attempts.

Thanks for backing me with stats there and sorry to all for my sorry typing...(not years per completion but yards):)

DBCooper
03-17-2009, 12:21 PM
Schaub doesn't cry, Cuddler does.

Yeah, but Cuddler wipes his tears and gets back on the football field.

Hervoyel
03-17-2009, 12:34 PM
I think part of it is people wanting that big name QB that Cutler kinda is.


I think you're on to something there. A lot of Texans fans are conditioned to think we have needs where we really don't at all. It comes from following a team for 6 years that's been mostly devoid of talent.

El Tejano
03-17-2009, 12:57 PM
Yeah, but Cuddler wipes his tears and gets back on the football field.

And then goes and cries again when he feels everyone is against him. Schaub on the other hand, shows everyone he's got what it takes by making TD or drives in the final seconds to prove everyone wrong (Miami game).

DBCooper
03-17-2009, 01:27 PM
And then goes and cries again when he feels everyone is against him. Schaub on the other hand, shows everyone he's got what it takes by making TD or drives in the final seconds to prove everyone wrong (Miami game).

I'm not a Schaub hater. I think he is a great quarterback and leader when he is healthy.

But that's the key, "when he is healthy".

It's not by accident that Schaub gets so many cheapshots. The word is out.

I hate to think it but if Schaub can't make it through the season again, we will be looking for another QB.

Kaiser Toro
03-17-2009, 01:32 PM
I think Cutler is fantastic, but the cost to acquire him would be to great for our team and offense. Does Cutler take us from the #3 offense to the #1? Does Cutler make us better in the red zone?

If those answers cannot be answered with confidence, then we should maintain our course and retain our current assets. I for one, do not see value in Cutler for this team at this stage.

infantrycak
03-17-2009, 01:40 PM
Does Cutler make us better in the red zone?

If those answers cannot be answered with confidence, then we should maintain our course and retain our current assets. I for one, do not see value in Cutler for this team at this stage.

Well Cutler's QB rating in the redzone is 74.1 compared to 90.9 for Schaub.

Kaiser Toro
03-17-2009, 01:50 PM
Well Cutler's QB rating in the redzone is 74.1 compared to 90.9 for Schaub.

I will take that as a vote of "lack of confidence."

Runner
03-17-2009, 02:34 PM
I think you're on to something there. A lot of Texans fans are conditioned to think we have needs where we really don't at all. It comes from following a team for 6 years that's been mostly devoid of talent.


On the other hand, sometimes it seems there is not a single player in the league that could be an upgrade over someone with a Texans decal on his head.*

*Until that player leaves, of course. Then he sucks and has always sucked.

Texecutioner
03-17-2009, 02:39 PM
On the other hand, sometimes it seems there is not a single player in the league that could be an upgrade over someone with a Texans decal on his head.*

*Until that player leaves, of course. Then he sucks and has always sucked.

Boy, isn't that the truth Runner. I think that your example is the more accurate one.

ChampionTexan
03-17-2009, 02:40 PM
On the other hand, sometimes it seems there is not a single player in the league that could be an upgrade over someone with a Texans decal on his head.*

*Until that player leaves, of course. Then he sucks and has always sucked.

Yeah, because nobody on this site ever criticizes players while they're on the Texans roster.

Signed,

Morlon Greenwood, Anthony Weaver, Petey Faggins, Ron Dayne, Ahman Green...

Second Honeymoon
03-17-2009, 02:49 PM
I think Cutler would be a nice fit here in Houston and because of the similarities between Denver and Houston's scheme, I think Cutler would settle in quite nicely in Houson. However, we have too much invested in Schaub to jump ship on him right now. The only way I would do it is if it was straight up Cutler-for-Schaub. No extra picks or nothing and even then I am having reservations about pulling the trigger on that trade. I think the local fans would welcome Cutler and the move would be widely viewed as an upgrade. Matt just deserves better so maybe trading him to Denver wouldn't be that bad of a deal for the guy. That way Matt still gets an opportunity to start with a pretty successful franchise......at least until Bowlen fired Shanny.

Goldensilence
03-17-2009, 04:02 PM
Guess I am not seeing why people are fawning over a guy that has a slim to none chance of coming here. Wouldn't be a cheap move and I know Denver wouldn't do a QB trade straight up. It's probably going to take more then the deal KC got for Cassell. Assuming on the complete long shot that happens you've got to trade Schaub. No way right now we get 2 2nd's.

I think Cutler is a good QB but the whole idea is just bad in the current situation. I'd like to see one more year of Matt on this team and see if he can keep on the field. If so, who needs Cutler?

Specnatz
03-17-2009, 04:05 PM
Yeah, because nobody on this site ever criticizes players while they're on the Texans roster.

Signed,

Morlon Greenwood, Anthony Weaver, Petey Faggins, Ron Dayne, Ahman Green...

Or criticized them before they even took the field.

Signed,

Duane Brown and Mario Williams

mattieuk
03-17-2009, 04:35 PM
Culter is a beast with a crazy and unreliable WR

Matt Schaub is an average QB that throws to the best WR in football.

Culter has talent, Matt Schaub has Andre Johnson

I'd give up a 1st for Cutler. Cutler + AJ + Slaton = the new triplets



A guy quits being your quy in the NFL as soon as you get something better. Loyalty is fleeting compared to elite talent. This goes for any sport

Really? Cutler has elite talent, but Schaub doesn't? What marker do you place on reaching elite talent? I could perhaps understand that he has elite talent potential, but there is no way that on current ability Cutler blows Schaub out of the water...

As for Schaub being an average QB because he has only proven himself throwing to Andre et al, are you kidding me? Over two years he has thrown pretty bloody well. For me the only real addressable issue is still his fumble rate (I think that with a healthy season his decision making will improve and therefore int rate will decrease). Would we have to trade him away to see if he works with a weaker WR corps before he can be dubbed an elite QB? Fact of the matter is that AJ being such a damn good player hasn't meant that Schaub's stats have been padded that much by AJ making catches that are 'not his catches to be making' due to poorly thrown balls.

On his decision making. accuracy and strength, all in all Schaub is a damned good quarterback. If he will be elite after a healthy season next time out if another issue, I think he will be pushing for a Pro Bowl place.

Texanballer
03-17-2009, 04:51 PM
Trade Matt Schaub and a 3rd rounder for Cutler?

TheRealJoker
03-17-2009, 04:54 PM
I think the last thing teams with a solid QB would do in this situation would be to talk with Denver about a trade. Doing so leaves them vulnerable to having a Jay Cutler situation in their own locker room. The last thing you should do with a guy like Schaub (or Cutler for that matter...rookie mistake by the HC) is to undermine his status on the team by entertaining trade offers.

That's the quickest way to nuke the locker room outside of having T.O. deliver the news to the QB.

HoustonFrog
03-17-2009, 04:55 PM
Texanballer, I recommend you jump in here...water is warm.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59230

TimeKiller
03-17-2009, 04:56 PM
Uh, I'd said get the deal done in the first meeting or we could easily be where Denver is right now with an unhappy QB.

Texecutioner
03-17-2009, 04:56 PM
Trade Matt Schaub and a 3rd rounder for Cutler?

The Texans won't do it, but I'd be stoked if they did. Kubes is putting all of his chips in Schaub.

gary
03-17-2009, 04:56 PM
I doubt this.

Ole Miss Texan
03-17-2009, 05:06 PM
Well since I think Schaub can be the QB to lead us the way, I hope we're not interested in trading him off. Don't get me wrong, I like Cutler a lot, but Schaub is the man here in Houston, he's a great fit for the scheme, he's a great fit in the locker room, he and AJ are an awesome combo. The only thing is he's gotta stay healthy and stay on the field. I'd be more inclined to fix that problem and get him all the help he needs than to get rid of him.

Texan4Ever
03-17-2009, 05:08 PM
If you think Jay Cutler is a better option then Matt Schaub...then think again. Matt Schaub has already developed the team chem he needs in order to be a leader on offense. Schaub has played with AJ, OD, KW, etc and has had much success with them. Trading him away would disrupt the team chem and require Cutler to get used to his new targets. Also, Schaub has way more respect from his teamates and I think the Texans supporting cast would, if given the chance, leave Houston to join Schaub if he were traded. Also, Cutler is a scheme specfic QB and doesn't have much of an arm and would have trouble launching the football Carr-style 60, 70, 80 yards downfield.

Joe Texan
03-17-2009, 05:12 PM
If Sagbe played second fidle why on earthe would you think Jay would get the Nod. Gary is a Matt Schaub man and Mat Schaub has proven to Gary that if he is not 100% he will let the second fidle play. Mat is Solid and if his line holds up we are on a playoff run

RipTraxx
03-17-2009, 05:12 PM
If you think Jay Cutler is a better option then Matt Schaub...then think again. Matt Schaub has already developed the team chem he needs in order to be a leader on offense. Schaub has played with AJ, OD, KW, etc and has had much success with them. Trading him away would disrupt the team chem and require Cutler to get used to his new targets. Also, Schaub has way more respect from his teamates and I think the Texans supporting cast would, if given the chance, leave Houston to join Schaub if he were traded. Also, Cutler is a scheme specfic QB and doesn't have much of an arm and would have trouble launching the football Carr-style 60, 70, 80 yards downfield.

I agree with everything except the arm. I hear hes got a cannon. There was a brief debate on who had the better arm, him or Elway in his prime.

Texan4Ever
03-17-2009, 05:15 PM
I agree with everything except the arm. I hear hes got a cannon. There was a brief debate on who had the better arm, him or Elway in his prime.

Really, I thought Cutler had an avg. arm and from what Iv'e heard he isn't much of a gungslinging, cannon-arm type of QB...guess I need to watch his games :thinking:

Double Barrel
03-17-2009, 05:20 PM
Guess I am not seeing why people are fawning over a guy that has a slim to none chance of coming here. Wouldn't be a cheap move and I know Denver wouldn't do a QB trade straight up. It's probably going to take more then the deal KC got for Cassell. Assuming on the complete long shot that happens you've got to trade Schaub. No way right now we get 2 2nd's.

I think Cutler is a good QB but the whole idea is just bad in the current situation. I'd like to see one more year of Matt on this team and see if he can keep on the field. If so, who needs Cutler?

On the first bolded part, it's the off-season, where this kind of talk flourishes. 95% of the talk never materializes, but it's what fans do in the absence of any real action.

I agree with the second bolded part, but that's a big "if". MS has yet to complete one season as a starter in the NFL. Hopefully '09 will be the first of many in that regard.

spurstexanstros
03-17-2009, 05:22 PM
Schaub was 2nd in the league last year to Rivers on yards per attempt. He was also 2nd in the league on % of 1st downs per attempt, once again to Rivers. Missing 5 games, Schaub was still 10th on number of big plays (over 25 yards) with 24--a big play on 6.3% of attempts. Cutler had 29 with 62% more passing attempts--a big play on 4.7% of attempts.

I think that is the key words why some are frustrated with Schaub.

Shoot my Schaub jersey cant even take a hit in the wash. it now says S ha b

Grams
03-17-2009, 05:37 PM
News Articles > Cutler asked to be traded? Published Mon Mar 2 2:34:08 p.m. CT 2009
(TheHuddle) SI.com reports Denver Broncos QB Jay Cutler asked the team to trade him shortly after the departure of former assistant coach Jeremy Bates to the University of Southern California.
Analysis: Cutler neglected to mention that tidbit during his tantrum regarding the Broncos' efforts to involve him in a deal for Matt Cassel over the weekend. Stay tuned for the next episode of "As The Broncos Turn."

(Article Link)

Check out TheHuddle

The guy is an arrogant prick. First he asks to be traded and they when they try, he throws a temper tamtrum trying to make the Broncos in the bad guy here.

Let the baby stay in Denver.

Runner
03-17-2009, 05:38 PM
Yeah, because nobody on this site ever criticizes players while they're on the Texans roster.

Signed,

Morlon Greenwood, Anthony Weaver, Petey Faggins, Ron Dayne, Ahman Green...

Or criticized them before they even took the field.

Signed,

Duane Brown and Mario Williams


I don't see anywhere that I said that Texans players don't get criticized on this board.

The Pencil Neck
03-17-2009, 05:42 PM
Really, I thought Cutler had an avg. arm and from what Iv'e heard he isn't much of a gungslinging, cannon-arm type of QB...guess I need to watch his games :thinking:

Yeah... because... he IS a gunslinging, cannon-armed type of QB.

Runner
03-17-2009, 05:46 PM
1. Schaub's record as a starter in the last two years: 10-12. If you throw out his two Tennessee starts in 2007 when he left with the game in doubt (in other words, under MLB rules for when a starting pitcher gets a decision), he's 10-10. Cutler's record: 15-17. Keep in mind that we play in a far superior division than Cutler does.

2. Schaub threw 380 passes last year; Cutler threw 616. Here's how Matt's adjusted numbers compare with Cutler once you equalize their attempts:

Schaub: 407-616, 4928 yards, 24 TDs, 16 ints.
Cutler: 384-616, 4526 yards, 25 TDs, 18 ints.



If Schaub performs at this level next year without having to "project his numbers to a full season", I'll be happy with him.

If he has another year where 30-40% of his stats have to be extrapolated, I think it is time to move on. I doubt there will be much argument then, because by then everyone will have known all along.

Second Honeymoon
03-17-2009, 05:55 PM
If you think Jay Cutler is a better option then Matt Schaub...then think again. Matt Schaub has already developed the team chem he needs in order to be a leader on offense. Schaub has played with AJ, OD, KW, etc and has had much success with them. Trading him away would disrupt the team chem and require Cutler to get used to his new targets. Also, Schaub has way more respect from his teamates and I think the Texans supporting cast would, if given the chance, leave Houston to join Schaub if he were traded. Also, Cutler is a scheme specfic QB and doesn't have much of an arm and would have trouble launching the football Carr-style 60, 70, 80 yards downfield.

Cutler doesn't have much of an arm? are you kidding me? and you think Carr had a good arm downfield? give me a break...

I want the Texans to stay out of the Cutler sweepstakes but to claim he doenst have a good arm is ludicrous and bringing up comparisons to David Carr in any argument is just asking for a reality check.

Specnatz
03-17-2009, 05:55 PM
I don't see anywhere that I said that Texans players don't get criticized on this board.

I know I was just playing off of what Champ said. I was being sarcastic and trying to be funny.

Schaub was 2nd in the league last year to Rivers on yards per attempt. He was also 2nd in the league on % of 1st downs per attempt, once again to Rivers. Missing 5 games, Schaub was still 10th on number of big plays (over 25 yards) with 24--a big play on 6.3% of attempts. Cutler had 29 with 62% more passing attempts--a big play on 4.7% of attempts.

I heard an interesting stat just now on espin when they were talking about Crybaby Jay. They said 12 of his 18 Ints were done when the Broncos were behind.

Texan4Ever
03-17-2009, 06:12 PM
Cutler doesn't have much of an arm? are you kidding me? and you think Carr had a good arm downfield? give me a break...

I want the Texans to stay out of the Cutler sweepstakes but to claim he doenst have a good arm is ludicrous and bringing up comparisons to David Carr in any argument is just asking for a reality check.



IMO, Davis Carr DID have an arm and he could chunk that ball...not accurately however. My point is I don't want Jay Cutler, he played in a much weaker divison with a good supporting cast around him. Plus he sounds like a whiny pansy who needs to just shut up and play.

BullBlitz
03-17-2009, 08:25 PM
Having played his college ball at Vanderbilt, I'd like to see Cutler have the opportunity to go back to Nashville and play for the Titans. They need a QB for the next 5 years and Cutler would fit the bill pretty well.

GuerillaBlack
03-17-2009, 08:28 PM
Hell no. Anything to make the Titans better is bad in my opinion.

WesmanTexanfan
03-17-2009, 08:42 PM
Cutler puts us in to the playoffs, IMO...

this is not trade speculation or anything, I just think its worth a call over to denver to see the price. If yall have already been all over this, my b, im not going to go and read the 8 pages to lay down my law...

TheRealJoker
03-17-2009, 08:58 PM
Cutler puts us in to the playoffs, IMO...

this is not trade speculation or anything, I just think its worth a call over to denver to see the price. If yall have already been all over this, my b, im not going to go and read the 8 pages to lay down my law...

Denver thought it was worth listening to as well...now their franchise QB is demanding a trade.

WesmanTexanfan
03-17-2009, 09:02 PM
Denver thought it was worth listening to as well...now their franchise QB is demanding a trade.

true that, but they(the borncos) innitiated all that jazz....

we would just be heling out :), im thinking he might be a bargain now...

The Pencil Neck
03-17-2009, 10:46 PM
Denver thought it was worth listening to as well...now their franchise QB is demanding a trade.

That's an excellent point.

Ole Miss Texan
03-17-2009, 11:00 PM
Having played his college ball at Vanderbilt, I'd like to see Cutler have the opportunity to go back to Nashville and play for the Titans. They need a QB for the next 5 years and Cutler would fit the bill pretty well.
Considering they should have drafted Leinart or Cutler in the first place. Vince should have gone to the Raiders... then they could have gotten Calvin Johnson to pair with him instead of Russell.
Cutler puts us in to the playoffs, IMO...

I don't see how Cutler would get us to the playoffs any faster than Schaub.

WesmanTexanfan
03-17-2009, 11:38 PM
Considering they should have drafted Leinart or Cutler in the first place. Vince should have gone to the Raiders... then they could have gotten Calvin Johnson to pair with him instead of Russell.

I don't see how Cutler would get us to the playoffs any faster than Schaub.


He is better, and though is a bit imature, he has an attitude that is no BS and a great arm(a fn great arm!!), with him + our offense = no limits, when people like him step into situations like ours they go well....

If you dont see it then you dont see it, but you would if it happenned...

bah007
03-17-2009, 11:49 PM
Just because Cutler has a better arm than Schaub doesn't mean he would do any better in our offense.

He is more prone to mistakes, which is what we are trying to cut down on.

WesmanTexanfan
03-18-2009, 12:06 AM
Just because Cutler has a better arm than Schaub doesn't mean he would do any better in our offense.

He is more prone to mistakes, which is what we are trying to cut down on.

your right, I guess it is really speculation. I cant argue, but I feel that way...

I have seen many QBs, I have seen many offenses and I feel cutler+rest of Texans O=serious championship team.....of course our defense as is factors in, which has been done.

edit/p.s. I like Matt, I thinnk we can winn and win big with him, I just see a fast track with jay.

TexanSam
03-18-2009, 12:09 AM
your right, I guess it is really speculation. I cant argue, but I feel that way...

I have seen many QBs, I have seen many offenses and I feel cutler+rest of Texans O=serious championship team.....of course our defense as is factors in, which has been done.

edit/p.s. I like Matt, I thinnk we can winn and win big with him, I just see a fast track with jay.

A healthy Matt Schaub = or > Jay Cutler

In our offense.

WesmanTexanfan
03-18-2009, 12:12 AM
A healthy Matt Schaub = or > Jay Cutler

In our offense.

GOOD F'N QUESTION!!!! LOL


I dont know, and maybe thats why i say what i say...


edit: but great point to bring...

bah007
03-18-2009, 12:15 AM
your right, I guess it is really speculation. I cant argue, but I feel that way...

I have seen many QBs, I have seen many offenses and I feel cutler+rest of Texans O=serious championship team.....of course our defense as is factors in, which has been done.

edit/p.s. I like Matt, I thinnk we can winn and win big with him, I just see a fast track with jay.

I see Cutler as a temporary setback and maybe a long term solution.

Right now, in this offense, Schaub would be a better player. Cutler makes more mistakes, is more careless with the ball, and is less accurate.

Now three-five years down the road..........who knows?

WesmanTexanfan
03-18-2009, 12:30 AM
I see Cutler as a temporary setback and maybe a long term solution.

Right now, in this offense, Schaub would be a better player. Cutler makes more mistakes, is more careless with the ball, and is less accurate.

Now three-five years down the road..........who knows?

I see what you mean, but could it be possible that jay felt he had nothinng around him and was pressured to make big plays?

bah007
03-18-2009, 12:38 AM
I see what you mean, but could it be possible that jay felt he had nothinng around him and was pressured to make big plays?

He may have felt that he had to score every time he had the ball because his defense sucked.

But he has plenty of talent around him on offense.

If your defense sucks then the best offensive strategy is to keep the ball away from the opponent, not get into a scoring match with them.

WesmanTexanfan
03-18-2009, 12:40 AM
He may have felt that he had to score every time he had the ball because his defense sucked.

But he has plenty of talent around him on offense.

If your defense sucks then the best offensive strategy is to keep the ball away from the opponent, not get into a scoring match with them.

word...

The beauty of these argumetns are that if it doesnt happen, we can both be right...

bah007
03-18-2009, 12:44 AM
word...

The beauty of these argumetns are that if it doesnt happen, we can both be right...

Touche.

Then on this one, I guess we both will be.

Grams
03-18-2009, 05:59 AM
Denver thought it was worth listening to as well...now their franchise QB is demanding a trade.

Cutler asked to be traded before the Cassel trade when down. He asked when AC Jeremy Bates left. Then when the Broncos tried, he throws a hissy fit. Probably just get traded.
Don't make the Broncos into the evil empire here. It's all Cutler and his agent prolonging this fiasco. While a better QB than Vince, he has the same level of Maturity as Vince.

Maddict5
03-18-2009, 06:30 AM
Cutler puts us in to the playoffs, IMO...



last time i checked, cutler couldnt carry his team (with a crappy defence) into the playoffs either

GP
03-18-2009, 08:17 AM
Cutler asked to be traded before the Cassel trade when down. He asked when AC Jeremy Bates left. Then when the Broncos tried, he throws a hissy fit. Probably just get traded.
Don't make the Broncos into the evil empire here. It's all Cutler and his agent prolonging this fiasco. While a better QB than Vince, he has the same level of Maturity as Vince.

Cutler denies that he asked for a trade after Bates was let go.

All McDaniels had to do was meet with Cutler before inquiring the Patriots of Matt Cassel. It's just something you do, especially with the QB of the team you just inherited.

But the new coach had to go out and swing for the fences without even sitting down with Jay Cutler. What's wrong with Jay Cutler feeling that his new coach doesn't want him? That's what happened, and so Cutler acted accordingly.

Then the 32-year-old coach couldn't keep things civil when they finally did have a sit-down this past weekend. You're the coach. It's on your shoulders to make things right.

OK, McDaniels. Here's the deal...if you want to get rid of Cutler, which it's obvious you did, then just trade the guy and get value for him. If you are NOT going to trade him, if you're going with the guy and you need him back with the team, then why didn't you swallow your pride last weekend and just freaking get over it already?

All indications are that McDaniels got super-authoritarian with Cutler (again) this past weekend.

I'd say Jay Cutler's the smartest cat in the Broncos locker room right now. He sees what's down the road for the team, and he isn't playing the game.

Every day McDaniels chooses to drag this out, the worse it gets for the whole team. Trade the QB, move on. Sheesh....it's really THAT simple. It's a done deal. The QB is pissed off beyond any sort of possibility of working it out. This McDaniels guy is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

El Tejano
03-18-2009, 08:24 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but Cutler's OL has been alot better than ours. That's what you really gotta ask. Could he do better behind our OL? I'm thinking not. He probably would start blaming them for his failure. Matt Schaub, on the other hand puts all the blame on himself and makes the offense work regardless.

Errant Hothy
03-18-2009, 09:22 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but Cutler's OL has been alot better than ours. That's what you really gotta ask. Could he do better behind our OL? I'm thinking not. He probably would start blaming them for his failure. Matt Schaub, on the other hand puts all the blame on himself and makes the offense work regardless.

Denver's OL may be better then ours (how much better I'm not certain. I want to say they are not that much better), but the Texans certainly have better backs and recievers.

Cutler wouldn't underthrow AJ in the endzone as often as Schuab does.

mexican_texan
03-18-2009, 09:30 AM
He would overthrow him a lot more, not to mention KW and OD won't get as many catches.

infantrycak
03-18-2009, 09:39 AM
He is better

By what standard?

Cutler wouldn't underthrow AJ in the endzone as often as Schuab does.

Doesn't make a difference if he overthrows him by 5 yards, throws it 4 yards to the side, etc. Schaub completes down field throws and redzone throws at a much higher %.

I wouldn't mind Cutler playing for the Texans as a vacuum consideration. Trade the chemistry that currently exists?--no. I also don't see the VY man love for Cutler with folks saying things like better than Elway, future HOF, etc.

Errant Hothy
03-18-2009, 09:43 AM
By what standard?



Doesn't make a difference if he overthrows him by 5 yards, throws it 4 yards to the side, etc. Schaub completes down field throws and redzone throws at a much higher %.

I wouldn't mind Cutler playing for the Texans as a vacuum consideration. Trade the chemistry that currently exists?--no. I also don't see the VY man love for Cutler with folks saying things like better than Elway, future HOF, etc.

I agree. The underthrows by Schaub are one facet of his game that I wish would disappear. I'll take the incomplete 5 yard over throw over the interception on an underthrow.

I'm not advocating Cutler over Schaub, just pointing something out.

I do feel more then confident that a Schaub ofr Cutler deal will not happen.

ChampionTexan
03-18-2009, 10:01 AM
Cutler denies that he asked for a trade after Bates was let go.


Another comment on this from Fox...

John Czarnecki of FoxSports.com reports before McDaniels and the Broncos pursued a failed trade for Matt Cassel, Cook had already been begging to get his client out. Denver told him no from the beginning. But somehow Cook has been able — how hilarious is this? — to paint Cutler as some victim in the cruel world of NFL trade talk. At the moment, the Broncos seem to be losing the PR war.
LINK (http://blog.theredzone.org/ViewItem.asp?Entry=588)

That would be Bus Cook, as in Jay Cutler's agent.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, if this is true (and it's been published by both Fox and SI now), then I know all I need to know about Jay Cutler.

Specnatz
03-18-2009, 10:03 AM
Cutler denies that he asked for a trade after Bates was let go.

All McDaniels had to do was meet with Cutler before inquiring the Patriots of Matt Cassel. It's just something you do, especially with the QB of the team you just inherited.

But the new coach had to go out and swing for the fences without even sitting down with Jay Cutler. What's wrong with Jay Cutler feeling that his new coach doesn't want him? That's what happened, and so Cutler acted accordingly.

Then the 32-year-old coach couldn't keep things civil when they finally did have a sit-down this past weekend. You're the coach. It's on your shoulders to make things right.

OK, McDaniels. Here's the deal...if you want to get rid of Cutler, which it's obvious you did, then just trade the guy and get value for him. If you are NOT going to trade him, if you're going with the guy and you need him back with the team, then why didn't you swallow your pride last weekend and just freaking get over it already?

All indications are that McDaniels got super-authoritarian with Cutler (again) this past weekend.

I'd say Jay Cutler's the smartest cat in the Broncos locker room right now. He sees what's down the road for the team, and he isn't playing the game.

Every day McDaniels chooses to drag this out, the worse it gets for the whole team. Trade the QB, move on. Sheesh....it's really THAT simple. It's a done deal. The QB is pissed off beyond any sort of possibility of working it out. This McDaniels guy is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Only one other QB has ever had more excuses made for him on this board.





I am not saying, I just saying.

bah007
03-18-2009, 10:04 AM
Another comment on this from Fox...


LINK (http://blog.theredzone.org/ViewItem.asp?Entry=588)

That would be Bus Cook, as in Jay Cutler's agent.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, if this is true (and it's been published by both Fox and SI now), then I know all I need to know about Jay Cutler.

If that is true, then it may not even be Cutler's fault.

He would be the victim. Only difference is he is not a victim of the organization but of his own agent.

Wasn't Cook Favre's agent during the craziness with the Packers?

Texecutioner
03-18-2009, 10:06 AM
Denver's OL may be better then ours (how much better I'm not certain. I want to say they are not that much better), but the Texans certainly have better backs and recievers.

Cutler wouldn't underthrow AJ in the endzone as often as Schuab does.

This whole Cutler is a cancer stuff is about the most crazy stuff I've heard in a while. Cutler has had to deal with plenty of problems on his team and has never pointed the finger at team mates once.

He has a problem with the new HC, and that's it. HE has never been a problem in the locker room and his team mates have always loved the guy. To say that he would start causing problems in this team or any other team because he has a problem with a coach that tried to trade him and allegedly lied to him about it, doesn't even remotely make him a team cancer or the kind of guy that starts causing a lot of internal problems.

ChampionTexan
03-18-2009, 10:06 AM
If that is true, then it may not even be Cutler's fault.

He would be the victim. Only difference is he is not a victim of the organization but of his own agent.

Wasn't Cook Favre's agent during the craziness with the Packers?


And Steve McNair when he was locked out of the Titans training facility.

Are you saying that you think Cook was doing this without Cutler's knowledge? If so, I'm not buying that for a second.

Texecutioner
03-18-2009, 10:07 AM
If that is true, then it may not even be Cutler's fault.

He would be the victim. Only difference is he is not a victim of the organization but of his own agent.

Wasn't Cook Favre's agent during the craziness with the Packers?

Yep.

infantrycak
03-18-2009, 10:07 AM
I agree. The underthrows by Schaub are one facet of his game that I wish would disappear.

As we all would.

I'll take the incomplete 5 yard over throw over the interception on an underthrow.

Well so far the underthrows have worked pretty well--we have one of the better WR's in the game in that regard. While there is a higher risk of INT generally on underthrows, there is zero chance of a completion on the overthrows.

WesmanTexanfan
03-18-2009, 10:10 AM
By what standard?



Doesn't make a difference if he overthrows him by 5 yards, throws it 4 yards to the side, etc. Schaub completes down field throws and redzone throws at a much higher %.

I wouldn't mind Cutler playing for the Texans as a vacuum consideration. Trade the chemistry that currently exists?--no. I also don't see the VY man love for Cutler with folks saying things like better than Elway, future HOF, etc.


If you had checked the rest of my posts, you probably wouldnt quote me, and on that....

Because I said that its all in my minds eye, so im not hear to argue just make astatement that I believe to be true. I like his attitude(mostly) and his arm....Im not right, im not wrong....

Texecutioner
03-18-2009, 10:14 AM
I heard an interesting stat just now on espin when they were talking about Crybaby Jay. They said 12 of his 18 Ints were done when the Broncos were behind.

And that is no surprise considering how they had one of the worst defenses in the entire NFL. And if you had watched a hand full of games of the Broncos last season, you would have seen how defenses were in zone coverage all the time against the Broncos because they had no reason to respect the running game they had, and they knew that Cutler and the passing game was the only way that they could beat them. When teams are losing by a significant margin or in the 2nd half, that is usually what most teams do. THey throw the ball around to get back in the game. Of course he had more INT's when they were behind. when you consider those factors.

Cutler was actually 2nd in the entire NFL in 4th quarter scoring as well.

bah007
03-18-2009, 10:21 AM
And that is no surprise considering how they had one of the worst defenses in the entire NFL. And if you had watched a hand full of games of the Broncos last season, you would have seen how defenses were in zone coverage all the time against the Broncos because they had no reason to respect the running game they had, and they knew that Cutler and the passing game was the only way that they could beat them. When teams are losing by a significant margin or in the 2nd half, that is usually what most teams do. THey throw the ball around to get back in the game. Of course he had more INT's when they were behind. when you consider those factors.

Cutler was actually 2nd in the entire NFL in 4th quarter scoring as well.

That makes no sense. Denver was ranked 12th in the league in rushing yards per game and tied for 2nd in yards per carry.

They were extremely effective when they ran the ball last year. The problem is that they became a pass first team and tried to outscore their opponents because they couldn't trust their defense.

bah007
03-18-2009, 10:23 AM
And Steve McNair when he was locked out of the Titans training facility.

Are you saying that you think Cook was doing this without Cutler's knowledge? If so, I'm not buying that for a second.

No I'm not saying he did this behind Cutler's back.

I think he may have convinced Cutler that it was in his better interest to act the way he is acting when it is not.

ChampionTexan
03-18-2009, 10:33 AM
No I'm not saying he did this behind Cutler's back.

I think he may have convinced Cutler that it was in his better interest to act the way he is acting when it is not.

If Cutler was convinced by his agent that throwing your new HC under the bus, and lieing about his employer to the public was in his better interest, then it's still more his fault than the agents. It may be because he's stupid, or because he's greedy, or because he's selfish, or some combination of those, but it's more his fault than the agents.

Texecutioner
03-18-2009, 10:38 AM
That makes no sense. Denver was ranked 12th in the league in rushing yards per game and tied for 2nd in yards per carry.

They were extremely effective when they ran the ball last year. The problem is that they became a pass first team and tried to outscore their opponents because they couldn't trust their defense.

I watched every Broncos game last season but two. Their running game was horribly inconsistent. If you looked at their stats all season long they looked good, but they would get a 30 to 40 yard type of run here and there and that would polish up the YPC averages, but when it came to consistency in between the tackles and getting the constant short yardage to keep drives going they were really bad. Selvin Young was so classic for that where he would have a ton of carries that went nowhere but then he'd find a nice hole and get an easy 35 yarder that would make his YPC look nicer. The only consistent RB they had that could constantly get them positive gains was Peyton Hillis who came out of nowhere and got hurt after like his 3rd game of actual playing time.

And you forget that they were on like their 7th string RB at the end of the season. Hell, they were having to go out and find guys like Tatum Bell and PJ Pope to run the ball out of nowhere. They had no consistency and chemistry from their backs because none of them could stay healthy and when you have that many RB's in rotation like that because you have to it also causes more break downs on protection from your RB's.

bah007
03-18-2009, 12:52 PM
I watched every Broncos game last season but two. Their running game was horribly inconsistent. If you looked at their stats all season long they looked good, but they would get a 30 to 40 yard type of run here and there and that would polish up the YPC averages, but when it came to consistency in between the tackles and getting the constant short yardage to keep drives going they were really bad. Selvin Young was so classic for that where he would have a ton of carries that went nowhere but then he'd find a nice hole and get an easy 35 yarder that would make his YPC look nicer. The only consistent RB they had that could constantly get them positive gains was Peyton Hillis who came out of nowhere and got hurt after like his 3rd game of actual playing time.

And you forget that they were on like their 7th string RB at the end of the season. Hell, they were having to go out and find guys like Tatum Bell and PJ Pope to run the ball out of nowhere. They had no consistency and chemistry from their backs because none of them could stay healthy and when you have that many RB's in rotation like that because you have to it also causes more break downs on protection from your RB's.

I'm not debating that you watched the games but this doesn't make sense either.

Denver was 26th in the league in runs over 20 yards with only 8 the whole season. That means that to sustain their very high YPC they would have to consistently gain a decent amount of yardage on most every running play.

They were also very good at running in short yardage situations. 26.6% of their rushing attempts on the entire season went for first downs, good for 2nd in the NFL.

Like I said before, it wasn't that their running game was inconsistent. The simple fact is that they tried to outscore their opponents by using the passing game because they didn't trust their defense.

What they should have done is used a more balanced offense and tried to control the pace of the game. This would have kept their defense off the field more and kept the opponents' score down.

Hooston Texan
03-18-2009, 02:06 PM
If you presume people are not complete idiots and are acting in their own rational self-interests, it becomes clear to me that the blame for this imbroglio falls squarely on Cutler and/or his agent. He and Bus Cook want a new contract--complete with fresh bonus money--and this whole controversy is their effort to get it.

There are two he said/she said elements to this dispute: (1) did Cutler demand a trade before any story broke about the Broncos seeking to work a deal involving Cassel and (2) what was said in the meetings between Cutler and McDaniels after the story broke.

According to at least two sources now (as written by Peter King and Czarnecki), Cutler/Cook did demand/request/beg for a trade first. If that is indeed true, then we have our answer: this whole thing was a cook-up job by Team Cutler to work a trade. The "anger" expressed by Cutler when the story broke (heck, for all we know, the three-way-trade story may have been leaked by Cutler) was entirely an act.

But, assuming that point is in question, we are left with another question: why would the Broncos not do everything they could to reassure Cutler once the story got out there (and the trade fell through)? The Broncos and Cutler/Cook have given wildly different accounts of what was said in their call and meeting. The Broncos claim they gave Cutler every assurance while Cutler/Cook claim it is "apparent" that he's not wanted there.

Unless you believe that McDaniels is completely incompetent, there is no reason for him not to give Cutler whatever assurances he wants. He gains absolutely nothing by deliberately giving Cutler the impression that he is not wanted. It is absolutely not in his best interest for Cutler to feel insecure knowing he's going to blab about it to the nearest reporter. A new coach must get his new locker room behind him, and needlessly alienating the Pro Bowl QB accomplishes about the opposite of that. Even if his assurances are false and he does eventually trade him, Cutler is not his problem anymore.

The key fact in this soap opera is this: Cook has demanded to be a part of the meetings/calls between Cutler and the Bronco brass. Cutler has three years left on his contract--why would he need his agent to sit in on a meeting with his new coach? Especially since it looks like McDaniels will be heavily involved with coaching the quarterbacks in a manner similar to Kubiak and the Texans.

This feud has all the hallmarks of Favre's divorce from the Packers and McNair's last days in Tennessee. Both were Cook clients at the time. Now, it could be that NFL teams just have a thing against Cook and thus want to alienate his QB/clients, but that doesn't make much rational sense. The more rational explanation is that Cook is simply following his old, tried-and-true McNair/Favre playbook on engineering a trade. Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence and three times is enemy action.

Other than believing the Bronco's are drooling morons, the only way this story fits together is that Cutler and/or Cook are deliberately trying to force a trade. The motive? The fat new contract that would come with a trade. The direct evidence? The sources saying that Cutler/Cook requested a trade before this whole thing started. The circumstantial evidence in case the direct evidence is in doubt? The fact that the Broncos have no reason not to give assurances and the fact that Cutler's agent pulled very similar stunts for his former clients, point in only one direction: Cutler/Cook have been trying to force either a new contract or a trade and a new contract.

Texecutioner
03-18-2009, 02:27 PM
Like I said before, it wasn't that their running game was inconsistent. The simple fact is that they tried to outscore their opponents by using the passing game because they didn't trust their defense.

What they should have done is used a more balanced offense and tried to control the pace of the game. This would have kept their defense off the field more and kept the opponents' score down.

They tried to have a more balanced offense but when they couldn't consistently move the ball on the ground with one RB after another getting injured for the season, they were forced to throw the ball a lot more and teams knew it. This was the worst running team that I've seen out of Denver in a long time. Shanahan loves to run the ball and work the play action. Where do you think Kubes got his philosophy from? Shanny would have ran the ball a lot more last season, but he didn't have confidence in their running attack. And then they were also forced to throw a lot more because their defense was giving up so many points week to week.

badboy
03-18-2009, 02:33 PM
What I like best about this whole thing is it is not our coach and our QB! We are getting ready for da Super Bowl or at least another good draft in 2010. I am so optimistic!

infantrycak
03-18-2009, 02:40 PM
Here is a weird rumor - Link (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/140554-jayc-to-dc-3-way-trade-has-5-players-moving-and-2-drafts)

The deal would see Jay Cutler, Tony Scheffler, and Cleveland’s third round pick going to Washington.

Jason Campbell and Chris Cooley going to Cleveland and one of Denver’s fifth round picks.

Brady Quinn going from Cleveland to Denver, and LaRon Landry from Washington will be going to Denver.

GuerillaBlack
03-18-2009, 02:44 PM
Even deal I say. I guess.

bah007
03-18-2009, 02:50 PM
They tried to have a more balanced offense but when they couldn't consistently move the ball on the ground with one RB after another getting injured for the season, they were forced to throw the ball a lot more and teams knew it. This was the worst running team that I've seen out of Denver in a long time. Shanahan loves to run the ball and work the play action. Where do you think Kubes got his philosophy from? Shanny would have ran the ball a lot more last season, but he didn't have confidence in their running attack. And then they were also forced to throw a lot more because their defense was giving up so many points week to week.

Did you consider the Texans running game last year to be effective?

In the Broncos wins last year they gave their running backs the ball about 22 times per game for an average of 5.11 YPC.

In the Broncos losses last year they gave their running backs the ball about 18 times per game for an average of 5.01 YPC.

That looks pretty effective to me. The problem is they didn't get the ball enough.

TexanAddict
03-18-2009, 03:19 PM
Here is a weird rumor - Link (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/140554-jayc-to-dc-3-way-trade-has-5-players-moving-and-2-drafts)

Cooley's response:

It is rumored that there is a possible trade in the works for angry Jay Cutler. There were a couple different internet possibilities. The first would be with the Broncos, including Cutler and Scheffler for Campbell and myself. Another was a three way trade between the Browns and in that scenario Campbell and I would go to Cleveland, Cutler/Scheffler would come here and the Broncos would get Brady Quinn, someone else and draft pick.

Trade talk is a weird wake up at 6:30. Obviously something was said between teams to cause this internet trading shit storm. I would be pissed if I got my ass shipped to Cleveland. But seriously, when the internet is the first news I hear about something this big I would hope it to be speculation. Really, it could have been a couple owners bullshitting and joking around about guys and someone leaked it. No big deal. I would be blown away to hear anything more. It is nice to read extreme skins posts about not wanting me to go. Thanks!

By the way, I do get to hang out with John Elway a little bit this weekend at the Dulles Sports Expo in Chantilly VA. I'm gonna bring a ball and ask him to smoke one for me.

Chris Cooley's Blog (http://chriscooley47.blogspot.com/2009/03/trade.html)

Texecutioner
03-18-2009, 03:28 PM
Did you consider the Texans running game last year to be effective?

In the Broncos wins last year they gave their running backs the ball about 22 times per game for an average of 5.11 YPC.

In the Broncos losses last year they gave their running backs the ball about 18 times per game for an average of 5.01 YPC.

That looks pretty effective to me. The problem is they didn't get the ball enough.

Numbers don't always paint the picture Bah. I've looked at Denver's stats in their rushing attack several times, and have had a hard time understanding how they came to be what they were, but again if you watched their games from drive to drive you would have noticed a lot of inconsistency. They talked about it all season long as well. It's not like I'm just this one guy that came up with this all of a sudden.

And yes, I thought our running game was pretty effective last season for the most part and was much better than Denver's rushing attack. We had a HR hitter in Slaton and he was great at getting first downs. We had a consistent guy back there though, while Denver had to juggle tons of guys and the only one that was consistent at moving the chains for positive gains was Hillis, but he got hurt shortly after he got his chance.

And speaking of Hillis, I wonder what ole Mcdaniels thinks of Hillis and what he plans on doing with him. I really like what he showed last season before he got hurt. I'd love to have a guy like that on our team if he were released or could be had for like a 5th rounder or something.

infantrycak
03-18-2009, 03:36 PM
Here is a weird rumor - Link (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/140554-jayc-to-dc-3-way-trade-has-5-players-moving-and-2-drafts)

Excuse me - didn't notice the "(satire)" at the beginning.

Grams
03-18-2009, 03:44 PM
If you presume people are not complete idiots and are acting in their own rational self-interests, it becomes clear to me that the blame for this imbroglio falls squarely on Cutler and/or his agent. He and Bus Cook want a new contract--complete with fresh bonus money--and this whole controversy is their effort to get it.

There are two he said/she said elements to this dispute: (1) did Cutler demand a trade before any story broke about the Broncos seeking to work a deal involving Cassel and (2) what was said in the meetings between Cutler and McDaniels after the story broke.

According to at least two sources now (as written by Peter King and Czarnecki), Cutler/Cook did demand/request/beg for a trade first. If that is indeed true, then we have our answer: this whole thing was a cook-up job by Team Cutler to work a trade. The "anger" expressed by Cutler when the story broke (heck, for all we know, the three-way-trade story may have been leaked by Cutler) was entirely an act.

But, assuming that point is in question, we are left with another question: why would the Broncos not do everything they could to reassure Cutler once the story got out there (and the trade fell through)? The Broncos and Cutler/Cook have given wildly different accounts of what was said in their call and meeting. The Broncos claim they gave Cutler every assurance while Cutler/Cook claim it is "apparent" that he's not wanted there.

Unless you believe that McDaniels is completely incompetent, there is no reason for him not to give Cutler whatever assurances he wants. He gains absolutely nothing by deliberately giving Cutler the impression that he is not wanted. It is absolutely not in his best interest for Cutler to feel insecure knowing he's going to blab about it to the nearest reporter. A new coach must get his new locker room behind him, and needlessly alienating the Pro Bowl QB accomplishes about the opposite of that. Even if his assurances are false and he does eventually trade him, Cutler is not his problem anymore.

The key fact in this soap opera is this: Cook has demanded to be a part of the meetings/calls between Cutler and the Bronco brass. Cutler has three years left on his contract--why would he need his agent to sit in on a meeting with his new coach? Especially since it looks like McDaniels will be heavily involved with coaching the quarterbacks in a manner similar to Kubiak and the Texans.

This feud has all the hallmarks of Favre's divorce from the Packers and McNair's last days in Tennessee. Both were Cook clients at the time. Now, it could be that NFL teams just have a thing against Cook and thus want to alienate his QB/clients, but that doesn't make much rational sense. The more rational explanation is that Cook is simply following his old, tried-and-true McNair/Favre playbook on engineering a trade. Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence and three times is enemy action.

Other than believing the Bronco's are drooling morons, the only way this story fits together is that Cutler and/or Cook are deliberately trying to force a trade. The motive? The fat new contract that would come with a trade. The direct evidence? The sources saying that Cutler/Cook requested a trade before this whole thing started. The circumstantial evidence in case the direct evidence is in doubt? The fact that the Broncos have no reason not to give assurances and the fact that Cutler's agent pulled very similar stunts for his former clients, point in only one direction: Cutler/Cook have been trying to force either a new contract or a trade and a new contract.

Finally - someone else who had read the reports about crybaby Jay. I would rep you but I must spread it around first. Not too many are interest in the facts thought, they are more interested in replacing Schaub with Cutler even though this whole fiasco is brought on by crybaby Jay himself.

bah007
03-18-2009, 03:45 PM
Numbers don't always paint the picture Bah. I've looked at Denver's stats in their rushing attack several times, and have had a hard time understanding how they came to be what they were, but again if you watched their games from drive to drive you would have noticed a lot of inconsistency. They talked about it all season long as well. It's not like I'm just this one guy that came up with this all of a sudden.

And yes, I thought our running game was pretty effective last season for the most part and was much better than Denver's rushing attack. We had a HR hitter in Slaton and he was great at getting first downs. We had a consistent guy back there though, while Denver had to juggle tons of guys and the only one that was consistent at moving the chains for positive gains was Hillis, but he got hurt shortly after he got his chance.

And speaking of Hillis, I wonder what ole Mcdaniels thinks of Hillis and what he plans on doing with him. I really like what he showed last season before he got hurt. I'd love to have a guy like that on our team if he were released or could be had for like a 5th rounder or something.

Numbers may not always paint the picture, but over the entire course of a season, averages are a good indication of a team's success.

You're telling me that Denver's RBs were inconsistent and that's why they passed so much. I'm telling you that I watched some of their games (not all, only about half) and I'm looking at these numbers, and I disagree. Despite going through a few RBs, the guys they plugged in still played well.

As a group, their RBs were:
#2 in the NFL in Yards Per Carry
#2 in 1st down %
#12 in Yards
#14 in Touchdowns

All that despite being #28 in Attempts.

That's pretty damn efficient, I don't care if it was a group of guys or just one guy.

I'm really not trying to argue with you about this, because this is a message board and all opinions are welcome. Your posts are often insightful, but in this case, I think you are wrong.

The Broncos had an efficient running game and didn't use it enough. Maybe they were afraid to give the replacements more carries, but those guys produced when they were given the chance.

76Texan
03-18-2009, 04:03 PM
Numbers may not always paint the picture, but over the entire course of a season, averages are a good indication of a team's success.

You're telling me that Denver's RBs were inconsistent and that's why they passed so much. I'm telling you that I watched some of their games (not all, only about half) and I'm looking at these numbers, and I disagree. Despite going through a few RBs, the guys they plugged in still played well.

As a group, their RBs were:
#2 in the NFL in Yards Per Carry
#2 in 1st down %
#12 in Yards
#14 in Touchdowns

All that despite being #28 in Attempts.

That's pretty damn efficient, I don't care if it was a group of guys or just one guy.

I'm really not trying to argue with you about this, because this is a message board and all opinions are welcome. Your posts are often insightful, but in this case, I think you are wrong.

The Broncos had an efficient running game and didn't use it enough. Maybe they were afraid to give the replacements more carries, but those guys produced when they were given the chance.There were several factors for the Broncos downfall.

The discontinuity in the RB situation is one (even though the RBs did not perform all that poorly as Tex had suggested.)

Their D didn't help, and the fumbles compound everything for their offense.
But Cutler also made quite a few terrible decisions that led to Ints (early in the game or when they are still in the game, even in the first half of the season against KC, Jacksonville, Miami, for example.)

Remember that the Broncos had as many Ints as their opponents (18), and they are still -17 in the turnover battle.

spurstexanstros
03-18-2009, 04:55 PM
Cutler was not the problem in Denver. I think both sides in this thread are getting lost in their own knowledge of football. The basic question is. Do the Texans want a Qb that cant make it through the season or a qb that can make it but recently exibited some attitude?

The differences between Schaub and Cutler are minimal... on the field. The question still remains...Texan fans are you comfortable with Schaub as your QB and Dan O as your back up? If no, lobby for the trade. If yes, stand pat.

Everything else is just guys trying to beat down the other with their knowledge.

Thorn
03-18-2009, 04:57 PM
Cutler was not the problem in Denver. I think both sides in this thread are getting lost in their own knowledge of football. The basic question is. Do the Texans want a Qb that cant make it through the season or a qb that can make it but recently exibited some attitude?

The differences between Schaub and Cutler are minimal... on the field. The question still remains...Texan fans are you comfortable with Schaub as your QB and Dan O as your back up? If no, lobby for the trade. If yes, stand pat.

Everything else is just guys trying to beat down the other with their knowledge.


I'll take my chances with Schaub, thank you. I'm not totally sold on him yet, but I'll take him over someone new.

GP
03-18-2009, 05:45 PM
If you presume people are not complete idiots and are acting in their own rational self-interests, it becomes clear to me that the blame for this imbroglio falls squarely on Cutler and/or his agent. He and Bus Cook want a new contract--complete with fresh bonus money--and this whole controversy is their effort to get it.

There are two he said/she said elements to this dispute: (1) did Cutler demand a trade before any story broke about the Broncos seeking to work a deal involving Cassel and (2) what was said in the meetings between Cutler and McDaniels after the story broke.

According to at least two sources now (as written by Peter King and Czarnecki), Cutler/Cook did demand/request/beg for a trade first. If that is indeed true, then we have our answer: this whole thing was a cook-up job by Team Cutler to work a trade. The "anger" expressed by Cutler when the story broke (heck, for all we know, the three-way-trade story may have been leaked by Cutler) was entirely an act.

But, assuming that point is in question, we are left with another question: why would the Broncos not do everything they could to reassure Cutler once the story got out there (and the trade fell through)? The Broncos and Cutler/Cook have given wildly different accounts of what was said in their call and meeting. The Broncos claim they gave Cutler every assurance while Cutler/Cook claim it is "apparent" that he's not wanted there.

Unless you believe that McDaniels is completely incompetent, there is no reason for him not to give Cutler whatever assurances he wants. He gains absolutely nothing by deliberately giving Cutler the impression that he is not wanted. It is absolutely not in his best interest for Cutler to feel insecure knowing he's going to blab about it to the nearest reporter. A new coach must get his new locker room behind him, and needlessly alienating the Pro Bowl QB accomplishes about the opposite of that. Even if his assurances are false and he does eventually trade him, Cutler is not his problem anymore.

The key fact in this soap opera is this: Cook has demanded to be a part of the meetings/calls between Cutler and the Bronco brass. Cutler has three years left on his contract--why would he need his agent to sit in on a meeting with his new coach? Especially since it looks like McDaniels will be heavily involved with coaching the quarterbacks in a manner similar to Kubiak and the Texans.

This feud has all the hallmarks of Favre's divorce from the Packers and McNair's last days in Tennessee. Both were Cook clients at the time. Now, it could be that NFL teams just have a thing against Cook and thus want to alienate his QB/clients, but that doesn't make much rational sense. The more rational explanation is that Cook is simply following his old, tried-and-true McNair/Favre playbook on engineering a trade. Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence and three times is enemy action.

Other than believing the Bronco's are drooling morons, the only way this story fits together is that Cutler and/or Cook are deliberately trying to force a trade. The motive? The fat new contract that would come with a trade. The direct evidence? The sources saying that Cutler/Cook requested a trade before this whole thing started. The circumstantial evidence in case the direct evidence is in doubt? The fact that the Broncos have no reason not to give assurances and the fact that Cutler's agent pulled very similar stunts for his former clients, point in only one direction: Cutler/Cook have been trying to force either a new contract or a trade and a new contract.

Oh, there's just one little thing: These doors are double-paned soundproof glass, the neighbor said she heard a scream but the detectives entered the apartment and found the balcony doors shut tightly, meaning that Roger Pedactor did not jump to his death but was instead thrown from the balcony by his killer who then closed the balcony doors on the way out!

Favre made his own bed, and it took him 3 or 4 years of dragging it out. That's not the agent's fault. But hey, if it gets the agent an extra commission check for one last hurrah with Brett Favre, what's Bus Cook to do?

Steve McNair was not allowed on Titans property because the Titans didn't want him coming back ad getting injured on Titans property and therefore be able to claim compensation, etc., off the Titans because the Titans were planning to get rid of McNair anyway.

And McDaniels, for all intensive purposes, tried to engineer a trade for Matt Cassel.

How can you fault the agent in the Favre situation? His client wanted to play football. What's the agent supposed to do, tell his client to quit dreaming? He represents players. Doy.

How can you fault the agent AND the player in the Steve McNair situation? The Titans were obviously done with Steve, he was going to be traded and/or moved somehow, and so the player and the agent went about the business of making sure they got what they wanted. Again: How is this wrong? What's wrong about a player and an agent doing what THEY think is right? It's their livelihood. When you sign on to be a fan of NFL football, or any other pro sport for that matter, you know what the gig is: It's every man for himself, trying to "get his" and trying to deliver on that contract and be a hero for a team. Have you ever seen a player, after he won the Super Bowl, reject the chance to hold the trophy and instead go find a pile of cash to jump into? A bigger payday comes with the territory. Period. But 99.9% of players cherish the chance to (a)compete, (b) be a great player, (c) win a trophy and make it to a Pro Bowl and be an HOF'er, and (d) make some coin along the way.

I do think Jay is being a little overly sensitive. However, his new coach tried to acquire Matt Cassel. What the crap does that signal to Cutler? That's some easy math, IMO.

Some of you guys are buying into this modern idea that everything is crooked and scandalous. I do agree that this is straight-forward, but I don't agree with your reasoning. You've built a straw man (Bus Cook) and have burned him down. Yet what's really going on? I imagine Bus Cook represents dozens of pro athletes, and so he's had 1 guy (Favre) who thought he still wanted to play, but management disagreed. He has another guy (McNair) who also thinks he can still compete, but management disagreed. And he has had Cutler, who was going to have a rude awakening one morning when he watches ESPN and finds out the Broncos have acquired a new QB who will "be a backup" for Jay Cutler. Except THIS backup QB was a pretty well-sought-after QB and was even tagged by the Patriots.

You excuse McDaniels' brash decision-making at the expense of laying all the blame at an agent's feet. That's like saying Miami is to blame for its own hurricane damage--Miami just happens to be in a bad spot. Bus Cook has had three QB clients, and he's stood by each of them. Sounds like a good agent, if you ask me.

You don't stand up for your player, and you ain't gonna' have many new clients. "Bus Cook? Man, that dude acts like he cares...and then he rolls over and gives into management. I'd go with someone else if I were you."

They make it do what it do. I'm not sayin'....I'm just sayin'

Texecutioner
03-18-2009, 05:51 PM
Oh, there's just one little thing: These doors are double-paned soundproof glass, the neighbor said she heard a scream but the detectives entered the apartment and found the balcony doors shut tightly, meaning that Roger Pedactor did not jump to his death but was instead thrown from the balcony by his killer who then closed the balcony doors on the way out!

Favre made his own bed, and it took him 3 or 4 years of dragging it out. That's not the agent's fault. But hey, if it gets the agent an extra commission check for one last hurrah with Brett Favre, what's Bus Cook to do?

Steve McNair was not allowed on Titans property because the Titans didn't want him coming back ad getting injured on Titans property and therefore be able to claim compensation, etc., off the Titans because the Titans were planning to get rid of McNair anyway.

And McDaniels, for all intensive purposes, tried to engineer a trade for Matt Cassel.

How can you fault the agent in the Favre situation? His client wanted to play football. What's the agent supposed to do, tell his client to quit dreaming? He represents players. Doy.

How can you fault the agent AND the player in the Steve McNair situation? The Titans were obviously done with Steve, he was going to be traded and/or moved somehow, and so the player and the agent went about the business of making sure they got what they wanted. Again: How is this wrong? What's wrong about a player and an agent doing what THEY think is right? It's their livelihood. When you sign on to be a fan of NFL football, or any other pro sport for that matter, you know what the gig is: It's every man for himself, trying to "get his" and trying to deliver on that contract and be a hero for a team. Have you ever seen a player, after he won the Super Bowl, reject the chance to hold the trophy and instead go find a pile of cash to jump into? A bigger payday comes with the territory. Period. But 99.9% of players cherish the chance to (a)compete, (b) be a great player, (c) win a trophy and make it to a Pro Bowl and be an HOF'er, and (d) make some coin along the way.

I do think Jay is being a little overly sensitive. However, his new coach tried to acquire Matt Cassel. What the crap does that signal to Cutler? That's some easy math, IMO.

Some of you guys are buying into this modern idea that everything is crooked and scandalous. I do agree that this is straight-forward, but I don't agree with your reasoning. You've built a straw man (Bus Cook) and have burned him down. Yet what's really going on? I imagine Bus Cook represents dozens of pro athletes, and so he's had 1 guy (Favre) who thought he still wanted to play, but management disagreed. He has another guy (McNair) who also thinks he can still compete, but management disagreed. And he has had Cutler, who was going to have a rude awakening one morning when he watches ESPN and finds out the Broncos have acquired a new QB who will "be a backup" for Jay Cutler. Except THIS backup QB was a pretty well-sought-after QB and was even tagged by the Patriots.

You excuse McDaniels' brash decision-making at the expense of laying all the blame at an agent's feet. That's like saying Miami is to blame for its own hurricane damage--Miami just happens to be in a bad spot. Bus Cook has had three QB clients, and he's stood by each of them. Sounds like a good agent, if you ask me.

You don't stand up for your player, and you ain't gonna' have many new clients. "Bus Cook? Man, that dude acts like he cares...and then he rolls over and gives into management. I'd go with someone else if I were you."

They make it do what it do. I'm not sayin'....I'm just sayin'

Finally someone that understands the role of an agent and what "his" responsibility is and to whom it is for.

How anyone could blame Cook for that Mcnair situation is pretty funny considering how Bud and the Titans treated him and wouldn't even let him back on their property like that is pretty funny to me.

I agree with pretty much that entire post. Nice write up.

Grams
03-18-2009, 09:30 PM
"I do think Jay is being a little overly sensitive. However, his new coach tried to acquire Matt Cassel. What the crap does that signal to Cutler? That's some easy math, IMO."

It signals to me that the team listened to him when he requested a trade long before the team tried to acquire Cassel. Cutler wanted out, the Broncos tried to trade, when it fell through, Jay has his feeling hurt because the team did what he wanted?

Hooston Texan
03-19-2009, 09:40 AM
Oh, there's just one little thing: These doors are double-paned soundproof glass, the neighbor said she heard a scream but the detectives entered the apartment and found the balcony doors shut tightly, meaning that Roger Pedactor did not jump to his death but was instead thrown from the balcony by his killer who then closed the balcony doors on the way out!

Favre made his own bed, and it took him 3 or 4 years of dragging it out. That's not the agent's fault. But hey, if it gets the agent an extra commission check for one last hurrah with Brett Favre, what's Bus Cook to do?

Steve McNair was not allowed on Titans property because the Titans didn't want him coming back ad getting injured on Titans property and therefore be able to claim compensation, etc., off the Titans because the Titans were planning to get rid of McNair anyway.

And McDaniels, for all intensive purposes, tried to engineer a trade for Matt Cassel.

How can you fault the agent in the Favre situation? His client wanted to play football. What's the agent supposed to do, tell his client to quit dreaming? He represents players. Doy.

How can you fault the agent AND the player in the Steve McNair situation? The Titans were obviously done with Steve, he was going to be traded and/or moved somehow, and so the player and the agent went about the business of making sure they got what they wanted. Again: How is this wrong? What's wrong about a player and an agent doing what THEY think is right? It's their livelihood. When you sign on to be a fan of NFL football, or any other pro sport for that matter, you know what the gig is: It's every man for himself, trying to "get his" and trying to deliver on that contract and be a hero for a team. Have you ever seen a player, after he won the Super Bowl, reject the chance to hold the trophy and instead go find a pile of cash to jump into? A bigger payday comes with the territory. Period. But 99.9% of players cherish the chance to (a)compete, (b) be a great player, (c) win a trophy and make it to a Pro Bowl and be an HOF'er, and (d) make some coin along the way.

I do think Jay is being a little overly sensitive. However, his new coach tried to acquire Matt Cassel. What the crap does that signal to Cutler? That's some easy math, IMO.

Some of you guys are buying into this modern idea that everything is crooked and scandalous. I do agree that this is straight-forward, but I don't agree with your reasoning. You've built a straw man (Bus Cook) and have burned him down. Yet what's really going on? I imagine Bus Cook represents dozens of pro athletes, and so he's had 1 guy (Favre) who thought he still wanted to play, but management disagreed. He has another guy (McNair) who also thinks he can still compete, but management disagreed. And he has had Cutler, who was going to have a rude awakening one morning when he watches ESPN and finds out the Broncos have acquired a new QB who will "be a backup" for Jay Cutler. Except THIS backup QB was a pretty well-sought-after QB and was even tagged by the Patriots.

You excuse McDaniels' brash decision-making at the expense of laying all the blame at an agent's feet. That's like saying Miami is to blame for its own hurricane damage--Miami just happens to be in a bad spot. Bus Cook has had three QB clients, and he's stood by each of them. Sounds like a good agent, if you ask me.

You don't stand up for your player, and you ain't gonna' have many new clients. "Bus Cook? Man, that dude acts like he cares...and then he rolls over and gives into management. I'd go with someone else if I were you."

They make it do what it do. I'm not sayin'....I'm just sayin'

1. I'm not trying to blame just the agent. I'm blaming Team Cutler--whoever is making the calls. I'm not privy to what Cutler and Cook say to each other in private, so I'm assuming they're working together. There were some posts earlier in this thread saying that maybe Cook was acting beyond Cutler's knowledge. I highly doubt it, but it is not an interesting question to me. To me, the question is: as between the Broncos and Team Cutler, who started and fueled this fire.

But, again, the fact that Cook has been to this rodeo before is instructive. I don't think he instigated the McNair imbroglio, but he certainly learned from it.

2. Your (now bolded) statements above about McDaniels brashly trying to engineer a deal are the key to your whole argument. Two reporters and their sources now are saying that it was Cutler (or Cook, but, again, I don't care who it was as between the player and his agent) who initially requested a trade after the firing of Shanahan and the OC. If they are right, your argument about McDaniels doing something wrong/stupid/inflammatory in seeking a trade that Team Cutler requested goes straight out the window.

3. "Overly sensitive" is a polite way to characterize Cutler's behaivor in this. For a man who is expected to lead a team of 53 other professionals, his act right now has veered into "Leave Britney Alone" territory. He's telling his teammates: I'm only willing to lead you clowns if our bosses give me everything I want right now. Forget that I've still got three years under my contract and that I haven't lead you guys to squat so far.

Yes, everyone is trying to do what's best for themselves (indeed, that is the starting point of my earlier post). I'm using that observation as a guiding principle in determining who's right about what went on in the McDaniels/Cutler/Xanders/Cook meeting(s). The Broncos gain nothing by adding to Cutler's insecurity, so unless they are just stupid, they have no reason not to give Cutler his assurances. Team Cutler, on the other hand, has everything to gain--in terms of getting a new contract--by screaming to the nearest reporter that Jay isn't wanted.

GP
03-19-2009, 10:00 AM
1. I'm not trying to blame just the agent. I'm blaming Team Cutler--whoever is making the calls. I'm not privy to what Cutler and Cook say to each other in private, so I'm assuming they're working together. There were some posts earlier in this thread saying that maybe Cook was acting beyond Cutler's knowledge. I highly doubt it, but it is not an interesting question to me. To me, the question is: as between the Broncos and Team Cutler, who started and fueled this fire.

But, again, the fact that Cook has been to this rodeo before is instructive. I don't think he instigated the McNair imbroglio, but he certainly learned from it.

2. Your (now bolded) statements above about McDaniels brashly trying to engineer a deal are the key to your whole argument. Two reporters and their sources now are saying that it was Cutler (or Cook, but, again, I don't care who it was as between the player and his agent) who initially requested a trade after the firing of Shanahan and the OC. If they are right, your argument about McDaniels doing something wrong/stupid/inflammatory in seeking a trade that Team Cutler requested goes straight out the window.

3. "Overly sensitive" is a polite way to characterize Cutler's behaivor in this. For a man who is expected to lead a team of 53 other professionals, his act right now has veered into "Leave Britney Alone" territory. He's telling his teammates: I'm only willing to lead you clowns if our bosses give me everything I want right now. Forget that I've still got three years under my contract and that I haven't lead you guys to squat so far.

Yes, everyone is trying to do what's best for themselves (indeed, that is the starting point of my earlier post). I'm using that observation as a guiding principle in determining who's right about what went on in the McDaniels/Cutler/Xanders/Cook meeting(s). The Broncos gain nothing by adding to Cutler's insecurity, so unless they are just stupid, they have no reason not to give Cutler his assurances. Team Cutler, on the other hand, has everything to gain--in terms of getting a new contract--by screaming to the nearest reporter that Jay isn't wanted.

I think there are good arguments on both sides of this deal.

You do a great job of showing the side of the coin that says "Cutler is the fall guy in this deal."

I think I have done a good job of showing the side of the coin that says "Cutler didn't think he had a future in Denver."

The league is a small world. It's plausible that Jay Cutler knew that McDaniels would seek to add "his" guy once he became coach. People talk, things are said, text messages are sent, etc. It's a small world for those guys.

I have nothing invested in this, and you don't either. I could easily make a reply and provide counter-points. And we could drag this out until a mod tells us to stop.

I see your side, and you make valid arguments. As long as a good QB gets out of the AFC, I'm good to go (no matter how it happens!). That'd be one less "good" QB we might have to face in the AFC playoffs.

Hooston Texan
03-19-2009, 10:14 AM
As long as a good QB gets out of the AFC, I'm good to go (no matter how it happens!). That'd be one less "good" QB we might have to face in the AFC playoffs.

On this, we are completely agreed, and that's a great sentiment on which to close the discussion of who's to blame.

So pass the popcorn and let's watch this fun drama play out.

HoustonFrog
03-19-2009, 10:20 AM
I'll admit that I have leaned Cutler in this whole deal because I can see the team lying and trying to undermine Cutler. However, as more stories come out, my thoughts have kind of shifted to more of the fault being with Bus Cook. If you read the recent articles it seems that he realized that it was always going to be "their word vs ours" and decided to just thow things out there and to see what sticks. At this time I'm starting to lean that Cutler isn't a crybaby but is a tittybaby that got his feelings hurt and his agent decided to go to bat for him and blow the thing up and use it as leverage. When an owner can't remember a meeting with a top player, something is amiss. Of course he could be lying but I always respected Bowlen. Seems like agent spin.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3995461

Jay Cutler's agent says his client's relationship with the Denver Broncos disintegrated after the firing of coach Mike Shanahan and a broken promise that Shanahan's offensive staff would largely remain intact, according to a report on NFL.com.

"Jay was disappointed in the firing of Mike Shanahan and met with the owner. The owner assured him everything would be fine. The owner said he had the second-best offense in football and would leave the offensive staff intact. Jay was good with that. Then he hires an offensive coach who gets rid of the staff," Cook told NFL.com.............

Bowlen, however, says he doesn't remember having the conversation with Cutler that Cook references...........

"I really have had no discussion with Jay or the agent. Mike was fired right after the season. At that point, there was no need to have a discussion with Jay. Now, actually, to be fair, I don't think I had that discussion. I don't recall it. I know I'm getting up there in age, and I am not sure of that discussion," Bowlen told NFL.com.

awtysst
03-23-2009, 10:08 PM
So the latest is that Josh McDaniels came out and said, ""He's our quarterback. We can't predict the future. He's our quarterback, we want him to be our quarterback, we made that very clear to him and we hope he feels the same way,"

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4010299

Apparently McDaniels text messaged Jay last week and Cutler has not responded.

mexican_texan
03-23-2009, 11:04 PM
I compare this to dumping a girlfriend when another girl becomes available. As much as you try to crawl back, it ain't happenin.

GP
03-24-2009, 08:54 AM
So the latest is that Josh McDaniels came out and said, ""He's our quarterback. We can't predict the future. He's our quarterback, we want him to be our quarterback, we made that very clear to him and we hope he feels the same way,"

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4010299

Apparently McDaniels text messaged Jay last week and Cutler has not responded.

This is why I put the majority (if not all of it) of the blame on McDaniels.

I had this thought: When you have a Pro Bowl QB, a young one no less, you don't go shopping for another one. You have a good QB, and a lot of teams don't. So why are you doing this? It's bizarre. It smacks of someone who has way too large of an ego to just ride out a season and see if the young, Pro Bowl QB can work.

John Clayton of ESPN feels the same way.

Cutler would be on board if the new coach hadn't gone out and tried to make the deal of the century as his first move as head coach.

People say Bowlen is a class guy. But the sudden shift in coaching changes has got to weigh heavy on a QB who also sees that HE is being targeted for a trade. It's not all about the money. There's some other factors involved.

awtysst
03-24-2009, 09:30 AM
This is why I put the majority (if not all of it) of the blame on McDaniels.

I had this thought: When you have a Pro Bowl QB, a young one no less, you don't go shopping for another one. You have a good QB, and a lot of teams don't. So why are you doing this? It's bizarre. It smacks of someone who has way too large of an ego to just ride out a season and see if the young, Pro Bowl QB can work.

John Clayton of ESPN feels the same way.

Cutler would be on board if the new coach hadn't gone out and tried to make the deal of the century as his first move as head coach.

People say Bowlen is a class guy. But the sudden shift in coaching changes has got to weigh heavy on a QB who also sees that HE is being targeted for a trade. It's not all about the money. There's some other factors involved.

If you saw a clip of the interview he was asked about Cutler and he said that Cutler was his guy...and then coughed. I am sure he is a little under the weather, but it just looked really bad.

I don't blame him for trying to get Cassel. If he thought Cassel would be good enough and he could trade Cutler to get D help, thats fine. The problem was when he lied about it. If he just manned up and said yeah, I thought it would help the team but I am sorry I did it, it would have been fine.

Interestingly enough Denver has done this type of thing before. Shannon Sharpe found out he was being shopped around. When he asked the coaches they said nope. He then found out from a friend on another team that they were an eyelash from acquiring him. He said he did not trust the Broncos and it would be a long time before he did again.

Hagar
03-24-2009, 02:13 PM
If you saw a clip of the interview he was asked about Cutler and he said that Cutler was his guy...and then coughed. I am sure he is a little under the weather, but it just looked really bad.
I saw the same interview on NFL Network and the only thing I can say is Run Jay Run!

Wanna talk about a snake in the grass. Sorry Bronco fans but your front office f$&^ed up when they fire Mike for this spinless wonder.

Texecutioner
03-24-2009, 02:52 PM
I saw the same interview on NFL Network and the only thing I can say is Run Jay Run!

Wanna talk about a snake in the grass. Sorry Bronco fans but your front office f$&^ed up when they fire Mike for this spinless wonder.

Totally agreed Hagar. I thought it was a good hiring at first, but the dude is trading off all of their good players practically. I don't blame Jay one bit for wanting to get out of there.

HOU-TEX
03-24-2009, 03:00 PM
Totally agreed Hagar. I thought it was a good hiring at first, but the dude is trading off all of their good players practically. I don't blame Jay one bit for wanting to get out of there.

They haven't traded anybody, yet. They've re-signed or signed 18 players since he's been there while releasing 14. Bly and Robertson are the only two notable players released.

Texecutioner
03-24-2009, 03:11 PM
They haven't traded anybody, yet. They've re-signed or signed 18 players since he's been there while releasing 14. Bly and Robertson are the only two notable players released.

Okay, they tried to trade Cutler which was completely stupid.


They are currently trying to trade Tony Sheffler who is one of the best pass catching TE's in the league and one of Cutler's best friends and best targets which isn't making the Cutler situation get any better and Sheff is also a fan favorite.

They are currently shopping Hillis who played extremely well last season getting 5 TD' in only 3 and a half games if significant playing time and quickly became a fan favorite.


They also got rid of their long snapper who did real well for them and it ticked off a few team members. I know it's just a long snapper, but he was a good one for them and there was no reason to get rid of him just to bring in your guy from NE.


So basically they have tried to get rid of their franchise QB, they are currently shopping their best TE who is one of the best young TE's in the league and in the passing game is just as good as Owen Daniels, and they are shopping their best RB. That is 3 of some of your most important pieces on offense right there.

Are you honestly going to tell me that if Kubiak were fired it wouldn;t bother if a new guy came in and immediately wanted to get rid of Owen Daniels, Steve Slaton, and Schaub that you wouldn't be ticked? If you say yes, I won't believe that for one second.

HOU-TEX
03-24-2009, 03:23 PM
Okay, they tried to trade Cutler which was completely stupid.


They are currently trying to trade Tony Sheffler who is one of the best pass catching TE's in the league and one of Cutler's best friends and best targets which isn't making the Cutler situation get any better and Sheff is also a fan favorite.

They are currently shopping Hillis who played extremely well last season getting 5 TD' in only 3 and a half games if significant playing time and quickly became a fan favorite.


They also got rid of their long snapper who did real well for them and it ticked off a few team members. I know it's just a long snapper, but he was a good one for them and there was no reason to get rid of him just to bring in your guy from NE.


So basically they have tried to get rid of their franchise QB, they are currently shopping their best TE who is one of the best young TE's in the league and in the passing game is just as good as Owen Daniels, and they are shopping their best RB. That is 3 of some of your most important pieces on offense right there.

Are you honestly going to tell me that if Kubiak were fired it wouldn;t bother if a new guy came in and immediately wanted to get rid of Owen Daniels, Steve Slaton, and Schaub that you wouldn't be ticked? If you say yes, I won't believe that for one second.

I'm definitely not condoning what that coach did because it was a boneheaded thing to do.

That said, the coach has been the only one to voice his version of the situation. He said he merely listened to offers for Cutler as well as other players on the team. True or not? Who knows? At least he's speaking for himself.

Cutler's had his agent do all the talking so far and IMO, that has done nothing but made a bad situation worse.

As far as the Texans scenerio, it depends on what we were to get in return. :)

WolverineFan
03-24-2009, 03:28 PM
I'm definitely not condoning what that coach did because it was a boneheaded thing to do.

That said, the coach has been the only one to voice his version of the situation. He said he merely listened to offers for Cutler as well as other players on the team. True or not? Who knows? At least he's speaking for himself.

Cutler's had his agent do all the talking so far and IMO, that has done nothing but made a bad situation worse.

As far as the Texans scenerio, it depends on what we were to get in return. :)

Exactly. McDaniels was an ***** for getting this thing started, but Cutler needs to get over it and realize that the NFL is a business. He cannot have a vendatta against the guy because he was involved in trade talks. It wasn't personal McDaniels is just more comfortable with Cassell, who he has already coached before. Once again it's a business.

GP
03-24-2009, 03:29 PM
Okay, they tried to trade Cutler which was completely stupid.


They are currently trying to trade Tony Sheffler who is one of the best pass catching TE's in the league and one of Cutler's best friends and best targets which isn't making the Cutler situation get any better and Sheff is also a fan favorite.

They are currently shopping Hillis who played extremely well last season getting 5 TD' in only 3 and a half games if significant playing time and quickly became a fan favorite.


They also got rid of their long snapper who did real well for them and it ticked off a few team members. I know it's just a long snapper, but he was a good one for them and there was no reason to get rid of him just to bring in your guy from NE.


So basically they have tried to get rid of their franchise QB, they are currently shopping their best TE who is one of the best young TE's in the league and in the passing game is just as good as Owen Daniels, and they are shopping their best RB. That is 3 of some of your most important pieces on offense right there.

Are you honestly going to tell me that if Kubiak were fired it wouldn;t bother if a new guy came in and immediately wanted to get rid of Owen Daniels, Steve Slaton, and Schaub that you wouldn't be ticked? If you say yes, I won't believe that for one second.

Bingo.

People are not analyzing this within the scope that it should be analyzed.

Look at all the moves. he's moving at an Obama pace, trying to do all this crazy crap in such a short period of time.

One of the best rules you can follow when taking over an organization, such as taking over a team that has been BRANDED as being a Shanahan legacy, is to move it an inch every day...NOT picking the thing up and slamming it down all the way across the other side of the room.

I don't blame Cutler. He saw the writing on the wall. He knew how McDaniels operates, long before he officially got the job. Cutler is playing the game, and I don't blame him. From what I have seen, McDaniels is playing with a Bill Parcells attitude: Bull-dozing stuff, acting very over-the-top authoritarian when he has done SQUAT.

Seriously, if you were of the caliber that Jay Cutler is, and McDaniels has done this (let's not be so stupid as to think McDaniels hasn't been stupid here, OK?) are you going to roll over for HIM? Why?

No way. You can say that's not respecting McDaniels authority as a coach. I'd say that's Cutler trying to do the right thing and get out from under the guy so that both sides can move on. The two don't mesh. And after seeing how McDaniels is running things, I can see why.

McDaniels must have learned how to handle people from Mangini and Weiss.

Count me as a Cutler sympathizer. There's no way McDaniels is THAT squeaky clean in this whole deal.

Texecutioner
03-24-2009, 03:41 PM
I'm definitely not condoning what that coach did because it was a boneheaded thing to do.

That said, the coach has been the only one to voice his version of the situation. He said he merely listened to offers for Cutler as well as other players on the team. True or not? Who knows? At least he's speaking for himself.

Cutler's had his agent do all the talking so far and IMO, that has done nothing but made a bad situation worse.

As far as the Texans scenerio, it depends on what we were to get in return. :)

Well Hou Tex everyone has different opinions on the Cutler situation and there has been he said she said stuff going back and forth the entire time, so that is just one of those situations where you either take the side of the coach or the QB after the fact. A lot of people think Cutler is acting childish and he is to some degree, but I just can't imagine why Mcdaniels ever wanted to trade him in the first place.

I was really wanting to point out more of the other guys that Denver is currently shopping (Sheff and Hillis) who were great parts of their offense last season and just doesn't make any sense. How mad would both of us be if some new HC came to the Texans and immediately wanted to shop Daniels and Slaton? I'd be extremely ticked. I'm not saying Hillis is as good as Slaton but he played damn well last season and who knows how good that guy could have been if he had been a starter all season like Slaton pretty much was.

HOU-TEX
03-24-2009, 03:44 PM
Bingo.

People are not analyzing this within the scope that it should be analyzed.

Look at all the moves. he's moving at an Obama pace, trying to do all this crazy crap in such a short period of time.

One of the best rules you can follow when taking over an organization, such as taking over a team that has been BRANDED as being a Shanahan legacy, is to move it an inch every day...NOT picking the thing up and slamming it down all the way across the other side of the room.

I don't blame Cutler. He saw the writing on the wall. He knew how McDaniels operates, long before he officially got the job. Cutler is playing the game, and I don't blame him. From what I have seen, McDaniels is playing with a Bill Parcells attitude: Bull-dozing stuff, acting very over-the-top authoritarian when he has done SQUAT.

Seriously, if you were of the caliber that Jay Cutler is, and McDaniels has done this (let's not be so stupid as to think McDaniels hasn't been stupid here, OK?) are you going to roll over for HIM? Why?

No way. You can say that's not respecting McDaniels authority as a coach. I'd say that's Cutler trying to do the right thing and get out from under the guy so that both sides can move on. The two don't mesh. And after seeing how McDaniels is running things, I can see why.

McDaniels must have learned how to handle people from Mangini and Weiss.

Count me as a Cutler sympathizer. There's no way McDaniels is THAT squeaky clean in this whole deal.

Who has said McDaniel's been squeaky clean?

They have both been acting like baby asshats from the beginning.

Texecutioner
03-24-2009, 03:49 PM
Bingo.

People are not analyzing this within the scope that it should be analyzed.

Look at all the moves. he's moving at an Obama pace, trying to do all this crazy crap in such a short period of time.

One of the best rules you can follow when taking over an organization, such as taking over a team that has been BRANDED as being a Shanahan legacy, is to move it an inch every day...NOT picking the thing up and slamming it down all the way across the other side of the room.

I don't blame Cutler. He saw the writing on the wall. He knew how McDaniels operates, long before he officially got the job. Cutler is playing the game, and I don't blame him. From what I have seen, McDaniels is playing with a Bill Parcells attitude: Bull-dozing stuff, acting very over-the-top authoritarian when he has done SQUAT.

Seriously, if you were of the caliber that Jay Cutler is, and McDaniels has done this (let's not be so stupid as to think McDaniels hasn't been stupid here, OK?) are you going to roll over for HIM? Why?

No way. You can say that's not respecting McDaniels authority as a coach. I'd say that's Cutler trying to do the right thing and get out from under the guy so that both sides can move on. The two don't mesh. And after seeing how McDaniels is running things, I can see why.

McDaniels must have learned how to handle people from Mangini and Weiss.

Count me as a Cutler sympathizer. There's no way McDaniels is THAT squeaky clean in this whole deal.

Good comparison on comparing him to Mangini GP. He is totally acting like Mangini as well. These guys think they are BB 2.0 and I'm just not sure that that is the way to go. You have to find your own style that works for you and so far it hasn't realy worked for Mangini and isn't working for Mcdaniels either.

I can't believe that this clown Mcdaniels tried to trade Cutler, is currently shopping Sheff, and is also currently shopping Hillis. This guy is nuts. I don't think I've ever seen a new HC try to break down a team's top offensive players like this in his first off season ever. I'm also even more shocked that the owner is letting him do this.

If I were Detroit GP, I would be doing everything possible to work out a deal to get Cutler and Sheff on the Lions in a multi player or draft pick deal. They could instantly have a franchise QB and top 5 TE to go with Calvin Johnson and Kevin Smith. Hell, I would also go after Hillis to be the bruiser to pair with Kevin Smith as well.

drewmar74
03-24-2009, 03:54 PM
Who has said McDaniel's been squeaky clean? Putting words in mouths again?

They have both been acting like baby asshats from the beginning.

No. You're wrong.

They have been acting like full-blown professional adult asshats who have made a successful career and taken care of their families by being complete asshats.

They have taken asshat to a whole.... 'nother..... level

http://www.thetubevideo.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/Resized%20therock-madtv.jpg

Second Honeymoon
03-24-2009, 04:21 PM
McDaniels sucks and the dude should be fired for starting this whole *******storm.

I can't believe the audacity of a coach to come and try and trade the one guy who is worth a crap because he's not 'your guy'.

screw mcdaniels, screw bowlen, and screw the broncos.

Texecutioner
03-24-2009, 04:32 PM
McDaniels sucks and the dude should be fired for starting this whole *******storm.

I can't believe the audacity of a coach to come and try and trade the one guy who is worth a crap because he's not 'your guy'.

screw mcdaniels, screw bowlen, and screw the broncos.

Yeah, but you're forgetting that he is also trying to trade a top pass catching TE in Sheffler as well and a really good RB in Hillis. Just imagine if he became our coach and wanted to get rid of Owen Daniels for no reason?

It isn't just the Cutler fiasco, the only real offensive weapons that he is wanting to keep is Marshall and Royal and Marshall is one small minor incident away from a multiple game suspension.

It's actually a little frustrating for me, because in the last two seasons I have become somewhat of a closet Broncos fan and have really liked this offensive unit that Shanahan built with Cutler and Marsh, Royal, and Sheff. Hillis came out of nowhere as well. I can't understand what this guy thinks he is.

The1ApplePie
03-24-2009, 09:23 PM
McDaniels is pretty much destroying the entire old regime for his spread offense.

They go from "We can make any RB into a star"

to

"Who the hell needs a running back?"

GP
03-25-2009, 01:15 AM
Who has said McDaniel's been squeaky clean?

They have both been acting like baby asshats from the beginning.

The media has. That's who.

Joshy stands up (via the 2-inch lifts in his loafers) at the podium and acts like he's just the smartest the guy in the room when being asked about this deal. He's trying to serve two masters: His own ego, and the notion that he better shut his trap and try to mend the Cutler situation.

I would imagine Bowlen is pretty upset about how he's handled this. Bowlen has searched for a QB since Elway retired, and now THIS happens? Oops. That sucks, doesn't it? Oh well. Bowlen's 32-year-old n00b head coach has it all figured out.

The stories I have read, especially on foxsports.com, paint Josh McDaniels like he's this old school coach and the Cutler/Bus Cook axis of evil are to blame.

I bet Bowlen is sick to his stomach right now. I'll wager that he's had a sit down with McDaniels and has read him the riot act. It went from McDaniels completely blowing the first sit-down with Cutler (Sunday) to McDaniels saying "he's our QB." Riiiiiiight. LOL. And Cutler won't give Josh one ounce of wiggle room, not a centimeter of slack.

Cutler saw something, and felt something, that didn't jive. There's quite a few posters here who are beginning to see it, too. The guy just got caught up in his own hype, too quickly, and played too loose for his own good. And now he's scrambling to salvage it.

This was, perhaps, one of the stupidest ways to begin a tenure as head coach: Destroy the style of offense and copy-cat the Patriots, seek to trade your QB or to (at the very least) acquire one who knows the new offense and who was THE hot commodity when the off-season began, screw a few other guys like Sheff around, and go strong on your Pro Bowl QB who now is having nothing to do with the n00b coach. Go ahead and change defense styles while you're at it, as well.

If I am an NFL player, I want to play for Josh McDaniels. Not. He needs a time out. He needs to sit a few plays out.

"There won't be one thing happening unless it is run through ME first." per the foxsports.com story. Well, you're off to a beautiful start, Josh. Keep chopping wood, chief.

GP
03-25-2009, 01:24 AM
Yeah, but you're forgetting that he is also trying to trade a top pass catching TE in Sheffler as well and a really good RB in Hillis. Just imagine if he became our coach and wanted to get rid of Owen Daniels for no reason?

It isn't just the Cutler fiasco, the only real offensive weapons that he is wanting to keep is Marshall and Royal and Marshall is one small minor incident away from a multiple game suspension.

It's actually a little frustrating for me, because in the last two seasons I have become somewhat of a closet Broncos fan and have really liked this offensive unit that Shanahan built with Cutler and Marsh, Royal, and Sheff. Hillis came out of nowhere as well. I can't understand what this guy thinks he is.

I'd take Hillis. In what limited action he saw, he carried the water pretty well IMO. Selvin Young can't stay off the trainer's table, and I thought Hillis was going to be a pretty good option for them this season.

You're right about Marshall. He hasn't learned his lesson(s) and he IS one misstep away from getting a hefty punishment that will cost his team. Eddie Royal played havok with my fantasy team because I had Marshall, and Eddie kept stealing long yardage plays and TDs from Marshall...so I know that the Broncos have a good WR squad. Their TE is solid, too.

Who is McDaniels going to find, now, in terms of finding a QB who can step up and lead this team? McDaniels better channel his inner-Belichick on this. He needs to remedy this situation, or the Broncos are going to be drafting in the top 4 or 5 slots in 2010.

I just can't get over how badly this guy has handled the Broncos. Mike Shanahan was not getting it done. The game, or at least the position on being both HC and GM had passed him by. But this was such a massive departure from reality for the Broncos, that it has dealt them the equivalent of deuce-seven with the flop coming J-J-A. Not very many outs, IMO.

Good luck, Broncos fans.

Hooston Texan
03-25-2009, 10:01 AM
Again, all this gnashing of teeth about McDaniels wanting to trade Cutler necessarily ignores the fact, as reported by a few reporters now, that Cutler and/or his agent demanded, begged for, requested a trade before any of the Cassel stuff went down. If this is true, then how can McDaniels be gashed for insulting his own QB--by seeking a trade--when that QB already made it clear that he wants out?

As far as the willingness to trade Hillis and other RBs, I'll believe they are actually on the block only when they get dealt (though, as I've posted in the other thread on the subect, if I'm Rick Smith, I'd be beating down their door for Hillis). If they do deal Hillis for anything less than a 4th or 5th rounder, then I'm in agreement that McDaniels is a fool.

But even if he is a fool, it was Cutler who started and is still feeding this *******storm.

Texecutioner
03-25-2009, 10:16 AM
Again, all this gnashing of teeth about McDaniels wanting to trade Cutler necessarily ignores the fact, as reported by a few reporters now, that Cutler and/or his agent demanded, begged for, requested a trade before any of the Cassel stuff went down. If this is true, then how can McDaniels be gashed for insulting his own QB--by seeking a trade--when that QB already made it clear that he wants out?

As far as the willingness to trade Hillis and other RBs, I'll believe they are actually on the block only when they get dealt (though, as I've posted in the other thread on the subect, if I'm Rick Smith, I'd be beating down their door for Hillis). If they do deal Hillis for anything less than a 4th or 5th rounder, then I'm in agreement that McDaniels is a fool.

But even if he is a fool, it was Cutler who started and is still feeding this *******storm.

That isn't true. Mcdaniels and the Broncos never came out with all of that BS about Cutler wanting to get out of Denver before the trade thing happened until after Cutler was already ticked off and they wanted to make it look like the organization didn't screw up.

Since when has Cutler ever been anti/Bronco? He has loved it there and has had a really nice young nucleus that he has been building chemistry with. There wasn't any trade demands when Mcdaniels first got there or when Shanny was first fired. It wasn't until after they tried to trade him away when Cutler got really angry and even then he didn't demand a trade at that very moment. Once there was no communication after the fact and he felt that he was lied to, that is when Cutler wanted no part of this dude or to play for him. The Broncos tried making it seem like Cutler and Cook pulled all of this before hand to make it seem like they had no choice but to try and get Cassel but I'm not buying that for even a second when Cutler has been very happy in Denver this entire time up until the point where they tried to trade him for last year's Derek Anderson one year wonder QB.

HOU-TEX
03-25-2009, 10:32 AM
The media has. That's who.


I'm not sure what you're watching/reading, but practically the entire NFLN crew are bagging on the coach moreso than Cutler.

Hooston Texan
03-25-2009, 10:43 AM
That isn't true. Mcdaniels and the Broncos never came out with all of that BS about Cutler wanting to get out of Denver before the trade thing happened until after Cutler was already ticked off and they wanted to make it look like the organization didn't screw up.

The fact that the reports about Cutler initially asking for a trade came only came out after the public spat began proves absolutely nothing. Your argument is that if Cutler truly asked for a trade, the Bronco's should have released that information earlier (presumably before the Cassel talks). IF Cutler demanded a trade and IF the Broncos were then actively seeking one, publicizing Cutler's trade demands would have been the worst possible thing the Broncos could have done. The potential trade partners would know the Broncos were over a barrel and the offers for Cutler would be much less enticing. Once Cutler set off the firestorm, there was no point in sitting on that piece of information any more. That's why the story did not come out until after the bullets started flying.

Why would Cutler want a trade? His own agent tipped the reason when he was trying to explain away their actions. Cutler got pissed when McDaniels fired his OC after Bowlen (allegedly, but I'll assume it happened the way Cook said it) told Cutler the OC was safe.

Again, the only way to accept the side of the story offered by Team Culter is that the Bronco brass are drooling morons. The only way to explain this whole fiasco without presuming the incompetence/idiocy of one of the parties is that Cutler has wanted out (or a new contract) from the beginning or, at least, when McDaniels let the holdover OC go.

Texecutioner
03-25-2009, 10:51 AM
The fact that the reports about Cutler initially asking for a trade came only came out after the public spat began proves absolutely nothing. Your argument is that if Cutler truly asked for a trade, the Bronco's should have released that information earlier (presumably before the Cassel talks). IF Cutler demanded a trade and IF the Broncos were then actively seeking one, publicizing Cutler's trade demands would have been the worst possible thing the Broncos could have done. The potential trade partners would know the Broncos were over a barrel and the offers for Cutler would be much less enticing. Once Cutler set off the firestorm, there was no point in sitting on that piece of information any more. That's why the story did not come out until after the bullets started flying.

Why would Cutler want a trade? His own agent tipped the reason when he was trying to explain away their actions. Cutler got pissed when McDaniels fired his OC after Bowlen (allegedly, but I'll assume it happened the way Cook said it) told Cutler the OC was safe.

Again, the only way to accept the side of the story offered by Team Culter is that the Bronco brass are drooling morons. The only way to explain this whole fiasco without presuming the incompetence/idiocy of one of the parties is that Cutler has wanted out (or a new contract) from the beginning or, at least, when McDaniels let the holdover OC go.

Well you're just speculating that it all happened that way with no real proof. You're taking the word of a stupid organization that tried to trade away one of the hottest young commodities in the league for some one year wonder that got the benefit of playing with the best offense of all time. Cutler loved playing with Marsh, Royal, and Sheff. He had nice weapons to work with for the future. He was lied to about the coordinator and lied to about the way the trade went down. The organization is just trying to save face the way I see it.

I think Cutler is smart for wanting out at this point. Mcdumbass is trading away several of their important pieces that have build up a nice young nucleus. I hope Cutler does get out of there and gets to another team. The Broncos will look like fools for the next 20 years. Bowlen is slapping himself relentlessly at this point, because there is no turning back the clock now and saving face. He has committed himself and his team to Mcdaniels and they're breaking down the on;y real positives they had on that team other than the WR's and a few O lineman.

OzzO
03-25-2009, 12:07 PM
Not sure if this was mentioned (as the board is usually on top of breaking news) but as a tangent, perhaps we almost didn't get a trade for Rosencopter?

Before Tampa was involved in a potential three-way trade for Cutler, Minnesota was actually the first team to become engaged in talks for the quarterback. McDaniels acknowledged Tuesday that another team had inquired about Cutler prior to Tampa Bay’s interest, but he declined to name that team. A personnel source confirmed it was the Vikings. According to two league sources, the Vikings would have shipped draft picks to Denver for Cutler, and Denver would have turned around and sent picks to New England for Cassel. However, the deal fell apart early on, after some elements in the Minnesota coaching staff weren’t entirely sold on Cutler.

Ya-hoooOOOOooo sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-cutler032509&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

GP
03-25-2009, 12:33 PM
Good dig. Thanks for sharing!

If the Vikings weren't sold on Jay Cutler...then they're idiots. That team is a QB away from being Super Bowl contenders. Putting a Cutler in the same lineup with All Day, with THAT defense? Instantly one of the best teams in the NFC.

I like how the guy at foxsports.com, who wrote the big opinion/editorial on the Cutler-McDaniels drama, can't even spell Matt Cassel's name correctly. he spells it "Cassell," not "Cassel."

Max: You're a nationally-known commentator on the number 2 sports website, and you can't spell Matt Cassel correctly?

(Sigh)

Only in America.