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View Full Version : Antonio Smith a Texan!


Mailman
02-28-2009, 03:29 PM
Just reported on NFLN

Mailman
02-28-2009, 03:30 PM
Five years 35 million. 12.5 guaranteed.

GuerillaBlack
02-28-2009, 03:31 PM
Anthony Weaver clone.

Mailman
02-28-2009, 03:33 PM
Anthony Weaver clone.

Really? Anthony Weaver had one sack in three years. Antonio Smith had 14 and a half sacks over the same period.

Let's stop this nonsense now.

GuerillaBlack
02-28-2009, 03:35 PM
I don't know how much more he offers us over Weaver. We'll see. I don't think its a bad pickup though.

Goatcheese
02-28-2009, 03:36 PM
Five years 35 million. 12.5 guaranteed.

On the bright side it's only twice what he should have gotten!

Anthony Weaver clone.

Pretty much. Hopefully he'll be what Weaver was supposed to be, instead of the sorry sack we got.

Really? Anthony Weaver had one sack in three years. Antonio Smith had 14 and a half sacks over the same period.

Let's stop this nonsense now.

Weaver produced similar numbers before he got his big payday.

brakos82
02-28-2009, 03:37 PM
The Texans have signed Arizona defensive lineman Antonio Smith to replace Anthony Weaver at left defensive end. Weaver was waived earlier this week. Smith, 27, spent his first five seasons with Arizona and started for the Cardinals in their Super Bowl loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers. Smith came to Houston on Friday night and spent Saturday meeting with Texans coach Gary Kubiak and his assistants while general manager Rick Smith negotiated a multiyear, multimillion dollar contract with Antonio Smith's agent, Drew Rosenhaus.

Source: Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6286086.html)

PapaL
02-28-2009, 03:38 PM
Can't judge the guy until he plays in our system.

We know what Weaver did for us and at what price tag.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water on this one.

Jackie Chiles
02-28-2009, 03:38 PM
I don't know how much more he offers us over Weaver. We'll see. I don't think its a bad pickup though.

That was my initial reaction when I heard we were interested but the more I see about him the less I'm worried. Weaver was a product of the Baltimore defense. Smith is more athletic and should be able to make some plays for us. I would prefer a smaller end and having Mario be the strongside guy but this is not a terrible alternative. If we find a nice pass rusher in the draft this guy, unlike Weaver, can do some damage rushing the passer from the DT spot.

threetoedpete
02-28-2009, 03:40 PM
Well one thing about it, they dont have to force a DE pick in the first. Both the NFLn guys Lombardi and Adam Scheftner liked the pick up. And both projected we aren't done yet on the defensie side....

Denver just signed Dawkins.

TexanSam
02-28-2009, 03:41 PM
Hopefully he lives up to the contract

Errant Hothy
02-28-2009, 03:41 PM
Well one thing about it they dont have to force a DE pick in the first.

Exactly, and in this draft that's a very good thing if you're drafting 15th.

The contract doesn't seem to be that huge of an albatros.

Big Poundcake
02-28-2009, 03:45 PM
I LOVE the pickup. I think he will be a lot better than Weaver, but maybe that is just me. I don't think the Texans overpaid to get him either. Great pick up in my opinion.

I guess the Texans look OLB with their #1 pick?

phantom17
02-28-2009, 03:45 PM
NICE! I really like AS! And I don't think he's a Dream Weaver Clone! I think he will do just fine!!:splits:

Specnatz
02-28-2009, 03:46 PM
I don't know how much more he offers us over Weaver. We'll see. I don't think its a bad pickup though.

But weaver went from a 3-4 DE to a 4-3 DE and Smith is going from a 4-3 DE to the same here. Not to mention Dick Smith is gone and his dropping the DE back into coverage all the time.

dickieb
02-28-2009, 03:47 PM
Here's a scouting report on him...

Smith is a fifth-year player who started 10 games during the regular season. He has good size and strength and uses good technique versus the run or pass. He is versatile enough to line up inside or outside and the Cardinals have utilized his versatility in a variety of roles within their schemes. Against the run, he has good initial quickness with very good hand placement. He can stack, slip off contact quickly and shows good reactions to blocking schemes. He gives good effort to the ball and has enough lateral quickness to flow effectively down the line or give good backside chase. As a pass-rusher, he has good strength to push the pocket as an inline rusher. Smith also uses his hands well to work off the frame or to counter contact in a tight area. He has good short-area quickness with the ability to flip or change directions quickly, which allows him to be effective on twists and stunts. Overall, Smith is a good technician who plays with solid effort. He is a versatile player that can take reps inside or outside, depending on the situation.

Smith is graded at 73 (70-79 is a good starter)

Weaver is graded at 61 (60-69 is an average starter)

Tailgate
02-28-2009, 03:47 PM
I like it. Our draft just got a little bit easier.

Jackie Chiles
02-28-2009, 03:48 PM
http://d.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/ng/sp/ap_photo/20090201/all/l3621276.jpg

Goldensilence
02-28-2009, 03:48 PM
Would've been more interested in Bertrand Berry but, I'll take Bush's word on the guy. I'm guessing this takes DE off the list for 1st round selection. Might look for a good situational rusher. Still thinking we'll be looking for the best LB available.

brakos82
02-28-2009, 03:49 PM
NICE! I really like AS! And I don't think he's a Dream Weaver Clone! I think he will do just fine!!:splits:
There's a joke in there about web page design...

Errant Hothy
02-28-2009, 03:50 PM
Contract details:

http://blogs.nbcsports.com/home/

A league source tells us that free-agent defensive end Antonio Smith has signed with the Houston Texans.

Per the source, it's a five-year, $35.5 million deal.

Smith, a part-time starter in Arizona, will earn $15.5 million in the first year, $19.4 million in the first two years, and $24 million over the first three.

threetoedpete
02-28-2009, 03:51 PM
Yes. I'm high on AS as well. Rubenesque suites me just fine.

http://www.3d-dali.com/Artist-Biographies/Peter_Paul_Rubens.html

http://artwork.barewalls.com/artwork/product.html?ARTWORKID=126196&ITEMID=126196

TexanSam
02-28-2009, 03:52 PM
Contract details:

http://blogs.nbcsports.com/home/

Damn...that's a lot of money those first two years

houstonbola
02-28-2009, 03:54 PM
I like the pickup and unlike Weaver this guy wasnt a product of the system. He performed well in mediocre defense and stood out while on their hot streak in the playoffs. Now Smith really needs to turn his attention to #59 and make him a happy camper!!!

phantom17
02-28-2009, 03:55 PM
There's a joke in there about web page design...

Nah! It's just my 3 y.o., but less than 1 y.o. at the time! We were just shoppin' at K-Mart & she wanted a toy, she looked cute, so I took the pic! And of course I bought her a toy!:photos:

threetoedpete
02-28-2009, 03:55 PM
Damn...that's a lot of money those first two years

Not compared to what Mario Willams will comand in a couple of years. Your beers at reliant stadium are going up.

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 03:56 PM
Damn...that's a lot of money those first two years

Need to front load with all of the hopeful re-signings that will be coming up in the next three years.

Errant Hothy
02-28-2009, 03:57 PM
Damn...that's a lot of money those first two years

It's a bunch of money this year, but we've got the cap space to do it. After the upcoming season the contract looks to be pretty cap nuetral.

ATXtexanfan
02-28-2009, 03:58 PM
this is a good first step

Sal Rosenberg
02-28-2009, 03:58 PM
I really liked what he did with the Cards.I think the other guy(Dockett) on the line was way better.Their line was pretty dominant especially against Pitt.

Goatcheese
02-28-2009, 03:58 PM
Damn...that's a lot of money those first two years

That's how much he will be paid, not the actual cap hit. Alot of it is signing bonus that will be spread out over the entire 5 years.

The Pencil Neck
02-28-2009, 03:59 PM
Nah! It's just my 3 y.o., but less than 1 y.o. at the time! We were just shoppin' at K-Mart & she wanted a toy, she looked cute, so I took the pic! And of course I bought her a toy!:photos:

I think he was talking about "Dream Weaver" which is a tool to create web pages.

phantom17
02-28-2009, 04:03 PM
I think he was talking about "Dream Weaver" which is a tool to create web pages.

Haha, opps! sorry, I don't know about the program! I just know "Dream Weaver" was a song from the 70's or 80's! I'm from that era!:headhurts:

m5kwatts
02-28-2009, 04:07 PM
I remember another little known defensive end from the arizona cardinals who left in free agency, had the same knocks as antonio (not special but has a non-stop motor).....Kyle Vanden Bosch anyone?

LORK 88
02-28-2009, 04:08 PM
With how much he's getting paid, I expect 7 - 10 sacks and nothing getting past him on the ground.

nunusguy
02-28-2009, 04:08 PM
He described as a "part-time" starter. I dunno, still haven't seen the guaranteed money ?

stingray
02-28-2009, 04:10 PM
Feb 28 Adam Schefter, of the NFL Network, reports the Houston Texans have signed free-agent DE Antonio D. Smith (Cardinals) to a five-year, $35 million deal. $12.5 million was guaranteed.


Feb 27 Numerous teams are interested in signing Smith, including the Texans, Giants and Seahawks, according to the Arizona Republic.

Recommendation: Arizona hopes that Smith will give them a chance to match an offer, however, it's likely that Smith will play elsewhere in 2009. He will turn 28 in October, so he's not young by NFL standards, but he has significant upside after recording 5.5 sacks in his last 11 games last season (including the playoffs).

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6894

steelbtexan
02-28-2009, 04:10 PM
Not compared to what Mario Willams will comand in a couple of years. Your beers at reliant stadium are going up.

Yeah

Beers, ticket prices, food, parking Oh wait they've already done this yearly.

If we get MW D. Ryans & OD signed to extensions I'm O.K. with this.

Jackie Chiles
02-28-2009, 04:11 PM
He described as a "part-time" starter. I dunno, still haven't seen the guaranteed money ?

Before you scroll up to check throw out a guess so you can be angry or happy.:specnatz:

Mailman
02-28-2009, 04:11 PM
he described as a "part-time" starter. I dunno, still haven't seen the guaranteed money ?

12.5

GP
02-28-2009, 04:14 PM
I like it. Our draft just got a little bit easier.

Exactly. The dline isn't getting attention in this year's draft.

That means LB or DB.

Or a stud WR or RB if a guy Smithiak wants is somehow still at 15. But even then, I wouldn't be surprised if we traded down and tried to get another 3rd rounder like we did last year.

Still, it's defense that needs more talent, specifically the further you get away from the line of scrimmage (DBs).

Shaft75
02-28-2009, 04:16 PM
So which LB are we going to choose in the draft?

And, btw slatonisabeast, we are now officially not getting "pepers".

TexanSam
02-28-2009, 04:16 PM
Hopefully he along with Bulman give us good production opposite Mario this season. Six or seven sacks from Smith and 4 or 5 from Bulman would be nice :)

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 04:16 PM
I am not excited about this signing, but willing to take a wait and see attitude. Regardless, Brian Gardner now has my attention.

Errant Hothy
02-28-2009, 04:17 PM
So which LB are we going to choose in the draft?

And, btw slatonisabeast, we are now officially not getting "pepers".

Cushing, Matthews or maybe Stinim. I still think a trade down and one of the later 2 I mentioned would be best.

Jackie Chiles
02-28-2009, 04:19 PM
Any news on a press conference? Very curious to hear what Rick and the coaches have to say about Antonio.

Maddict5
02-28-2009, 04:21 PM
im ok with this... it cant work out worse than weaver tbh!

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 04:22 PM
Hopefully he along with Bulman give us good production opposite Mario this season. Six or seven sacks from Smith and 4 or 5 from Bulman would be nice :)


I'm thinking Bulman may go back to rotating at DT. Who knows though. We've got A.Smith, Cochran, Bulman that are all similar DE types. All lack elite quickness, weigh around 280 lbs and have some ability to rush the passer from End or Tackle. I still think we need to find a pure speed rusher just to rotate in 20 plays a game... perhpas McGlover fits the bill but I expect a mid round draftpick to go after that.

GP
02-28-2009, 04:22 PM
I am not excited about this signing, but willing to take a wait and see attitude. Regardless, Brian Gardner now has my attention.

But isn't it an "OK" deal in terms of being heavily front-loaded this year, with less downside in years 2 and 3? I mean, Antonio is 28 and this puts him as a Texans player until he's 31. This would have been a bad deal if we had structured it as a 4,5, or 6-year deal right?

And we didn't lose a draft pick, specifically 2 first rounders.

And we don't have to reach on a rookie DE via the draft.

Yeah, in terms of how this plays out on the field...the last guy we went after for DE was a complete bust. Is it the residue off the Weaver deal that doesn't sit well with you?

I can see where some might think it's a "meh" signing. I have healthy expectations: Stay on the field, be disruptive all the time even if you're not owning a game, and never quit. And don't drift back into pass coverage, please.

Roughnecks
02-28-2009, 04:24 PM
Is he Peppers no but I think he will work out alright. The best part that I like about this deal is we still have all our picks and maybe we can pickup a DE like Ayers from Tenn in the 2nd as long as there not a run on DE.

nunusguy
02-28-2009, 04:24 PM
Before you scroll up to check throw out a guess so you can be angry or happy.:specnatz:
12.5 M, eh ? Thanks for the heads-up ?
In the new era of post-Haynesworth 40 Million + money, honestly I wouldn't have been that surprised if it was in the mid-teens. But for a guy who's resume says part-time starter, I just dunno ?

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 04:27 PM
But isn't it an "OK" deal in terms of being heavily front-loaded this year, with less downside in years 2 and 3? I mean, Antonio is 28 and this puts him as a Texans player until he's 31. This would have been a bad deal if we had structured it as a 4,5, or 6-year deal right?

And we didn't lose a draft pick, specifically 2 first rounders.

And we don't have to reach on a rookie DE via the draft.

Yeah, in terms of how this plays out on the field...the last guy we went after for DE was a complete bust. Is it the residue off the Weaver deal that doesn't sit well with you?

I can see where some might think it's a "meh" signing. I have healthy expectations: Stay on the field, be disruptive all the time even if you're not owning a game, and never quit. And don't drift back into pass coverage, please.

I am fine with the structure of the deal, just not sure if the talent is commensurate with the dollars being provided. This is a Rick Smith vs. Brian Gardner/Frank Bush situation. Smith did his job, the book is still open on the other two.

Jackie Chiles
02-28-2009, 04:29 PM
12.5 M, eh ? Thanks for the heads-up ?
In the new era of post-Haynesworth 40 Million + money, honestly I wouldn't have been that surprised if it was in the mid-teens. But for a guy who's resume says part-time starter, I just dunno ?

Yeah I just wanted to see an opinion right before you saw the actual number. I agree, I thought it could have been more, could have been less, who knows. Hopefully he plays up to it.

CloakNNNdagger
02-28-2009, 04:29 PM
Not compared to what Mario Willams will comand in a couple of years. Your beers at reliant stadium are going up.

.......as will its water content......

Big Poundcake
02-28-2009, 04:31 PM
So which LB are we going to choose in the draft?


Cushing maybe?

GP
02-28-2009, 04:38 PM
I am fine with the structure of the deal, just not sure if the talent is commensurate with the dollars being provided. This is a Rick Smith vs. Brian Gardner/Frank Bush situation. Smith did his job, the book is still open on the other two.

I see.

Would love to know how Smith feels about this. As in: Is this acquisition truly "blessed" by Smith, or is he doing it as a honeymoon gift to Frank Bush?

You'd have to think that Frank wanted this, but I wonder if this was agreed upon by all members of the brain trust or is it a gift to Frank for being the new d-coord. One of those "I'm the head guy for the defense. This guy, for what we can afford, will be better than Weaver."

Going to be very interesting how this works out on the field. Very interesting. If we stink up the joint in the first 6 weeks of the season, I and a lot of others are going to be searching for our pitchforks and torches.

bckey
02-28-2009, 04:38 PM
I'm good with the signing. I think he will be even better with us than he was with the Cards because he has Mario on the other side.

If we get a stud outside lb in the first round, then maybe cb in the 2nd, dt 3rd, rb and safety with our 4ths, ol 5th, qb 6th, and wr 7th look out. Of course it all depends on what we do in the remainder of free agency. Can't wait until April.

Mari-OWNED!
02-28-2009, 04:42 PM
So which LB are we going to choose in the draft?

I like Cushing or maybe Laurinaitis.

alphajoker
02-28-2009, 04:42 PM
.......as will its water content......

That's what Miller Lite usually tastes like. :piano: :jk:
Step up to Budweiser and your taste buds will be satisfied. LOL

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 04:45 PM
I see.

Would love to know how Smith feels about this. As in: Is this acquisition truly "blessed" by Smith, or is he doing it as a honeymoon gift to Frank Bush?

You'd have to think that Frank wanted this, but I wonder if this was agreed upon by all members of the brain trust or is it a gift to Frank for being the new d-coord. One of those "I'm the head guy for the defense. This guy, for what we can afford, will be better than Weaver."

Going to be very interesting how this works out on the field. Very interesting. If we stink up the joint in the first 6 weeks of the season, I and a lot of others are going to be searching for our pitchforks and torches.

If we do not draft a DL player in the first three rounds, because of this signing, I will bring my cauldron of hot tar and pour it down the stairs at Reliant. We over paid, we better get 5x production out of this player than what the Cardinals received.

Silver Oak
02-28-2009, 04:46 PM
http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=40807

link to the Cards thread about the signing. funny that his nickname with the is the "Arm".

:fans:

The1ApplePie
02-28-2009, 04:48 PM
Sounds good, at least it prevents us from drafting future bust Michael Johnson

Brando
02-28-2009, 04:50 PM
I'm good with this, I don't think he is a Weaver clone. I think this guy is a little nastier, attitude wise.

GP
02-28-2009, 04:51 PM
If we do not draft a DL player in the first three rounds, because of this signing, I will bring my cauldron of hot tar and pour it down the stairs at Reliant. We over paid, we better get 5x production out of this player than what the Cardinals received.

Mario, Smith, TJ, Okam, Bulman, Robinson, Cochran. That's 7 guys on a 4-man line. I suspect we'll grab a DL somewhere in the draft...but it'd have to be "THE GUY" who is available, the guy whom Smithiakush deem to be worth it in rounds 1-3. And those probabilities are like overpaying for suited connectors when the flop comes K-K-A.

You might need to go ahead and research how much tar, firewood, and cauldrons are selling for these days. You're probably not going to be happy.

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 04:54 PM
Mario, Smith, TJ, Okam, Bulman, Robinson, Cochran. That's 7 guys on a 4-man line. I suspect we'll grab a DL somewhere in the draft...but it'd have to be "THE GUY" who is available, the guy whom Smithiakush deem to be worth it in rounds 1-3.

You might need to go ahead and research how much tar, firewood, and cauldrons are selling for these days. You're probably not going to be happy.

I would have rather given Dunta more money, than make a commitment to a guy who blew up during the playoffs.

I am sorry, but this signing has more red flags than Red Square.

threetoedpete
02-28-2009, 04:55 PM
well if they were targeting a guy raw like Robert Ayers, or Micheal Johnson, wouldn't the first move in the equation be getting a veteran presence in the locker room to help show him the ropes ? Just thinking out loud. I don't think there are any cheap guys on the d line anymore.

BSofA04
02-28-2009, 04:56 PM
Pretty good signing IMO. Makes me much happier knowing I DVR'd the Super Bowl. Awesome!!!

Specnatz
02-28-2009, 04:57 PM
well if they were targeting a guy raw like Robert Ayers, or Micheal Johnson, wouldn't the first move in the equation be getting a veteran presence in the locker room to help show him the ropes ? Just thinking out loud. I don't think there are any cheap guys on the d line anymore.

You mean like Mario?

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 04:58 PM
Looks like the Chron writers are on a weekend retreat, crickets on the signing. Very sad.

http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/

disaacks3
02-28-2009, 04:58 PM
Well we've got our Weaver replacement...I just hope he's worth the cost increase. I'm OK with this signing, he's not a top-tier player, but we definitely weren't going bottom of the barrel here either.

Welcome to Houston, Mr. Smith! :d:

Lets start looking for the FS, CB & LB of our future in the draft.

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 05:00 PM
I would have rather given Dunta more money, than make a commitment to a guy who blew up during the playoffs.

I am sorry, but this signing has more red flags than Red Square.

I don't think this deal has any impact on a Dunta re-signing. We had to improve the DL and this isn't going to hamstring the salary cap.

threetoedpete
02-28-2009, 05:02 PM
You mean like Mario?

Mario plays the other side. Someone to stand behind him in drills...sit beside him in the film room and explain to him what he's doing right and what he's doing wrong. Mario's skill set is so far off the charts, I do not see your point.

TexansSeminole
02-28-2009, 05:04 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if we used our first pick on a pass rushing RDE like Brown or Orakpo and use Smith as the guy on running downs as the rookie learns to play against the run.

ObsiWan
02-28-2009, 05:09 PM
how does this money compare to the money some unproven rookie would get should we pick a DE at #15??

rarazz00
02-28-2009, 05:11 PM
I guess he gets to maintain his jersey # 94...:brando:

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 05:11 PM
I don't think this deal has any impact on a Dunta re-signing. We had to improve the DL and this isn't going to hamstring the salary cap.

Improving the DL and overpaying for Smith can and should have been exclusive. Feeling the need "to do something" is so Casserly.

The more I think about this deal, the more I hear barely a whimper out of the Cards fans, the more I hear the talkng heads laud this pick and nod in unison, the more I dislike it.

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 05:13 PM
how does this money compare to the money some unproven rookie would get should we pick a DE at #15??

Fair question, just as "how does this money compare to other unproven veterans who made three nice plays in the playoffs" is.

Big Lou
02-28-2009, 05:16 PM
For everyone that think the money is too high, just remember that these numbers are always deceptive. The contract could be heavily laced with incentives. The $12.5 mil gauranteed is the magic number, and thats not to out of line.

Also it's a five year deal and something tells me the heavy portion is in the back and not gauranteed. The guy is a high motor type so he probably has faith in his own ability. If his work ethic is as they say it is, he should at least be fun to watch on a D-Line with #90!!!!

GP
02-28-2009, 05:17 PM
I would have rather given Dunta more money, than make a commitment to a guy who blew up during the playoffs.

I am sorry, but this signing has more red flags than Red Square.

But the difference is that one guy has two healthy legs, and the other guy doesn't.

You're THAT concerned? Concerned so much that you'd rather give Dunta the money than to another Dlineman?

We couldn't afford to keep Weaver (due to his lack of production) and we can't afford to go after the top-tier DEs when we're sitting on Mario Williams. I think there will be a lot of pissed off fans when we DON'T go DL in the first few rounds. But does it instantly translate to immediate suckdom?

I'm not so sure it does.

Your posts (and your avatar) look like you might be ordering up another Mojito. LOL. Take care. I gotta' go...

The Pencil Neck
02-28-2009, 05:17 PM
Fair question, just as "how does this money compare to other unproven veterans who made three nice plays in the playoffs" is.

I really look at this more as Bush KNOWING this guy and going after him. Bush knew Weaver and he knew this guy from his time in Arizona and he picked this guy.

So I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt until we see a couple of games out of him.

Ole Miss Texan
02-28-2009, 05:17 PM
I'll go on record saying that I really like this signing a lot. This really upgrades our DE position and frees up the draft a lot. I also like how his deal is structured. Looks like a lot will go towards our Cap this year allowing the future to be a bit brighter. There's no certainty in what's going to happen in the future: cap/uncapped.

Way to go Ricky, our team is getting better and better!

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 05:18 PM
Improving the DL and overpaying for Smith can and should have been exclusive. Feeling the need "to do something" is so Casserly.

The more I think about this deal, the more I hear barely a whimper out of the Cards fans, the more I hear the talkng heads laud this pick and nod in unison, the more I dislike it.

How often did you watch him? This signing needs to be seen mutually exclusively from the Weaver signing or any of those Casserly decisions. Your emotions have nothing to do with it. I'm going to go watch some Arizona games on NFL.com/replay and watch him closely. You have to pay a premium price to play in FA. I think this team has been and is being very measured in FA under Rick Smith.

Antonio Smith is rated closely with Chris Canty and has out-produced him the past 3 seasons. Watch how much more money Canty gets guaranteed. This is the market!

Also, it obvious the organization was very excited about this particular player- based on what Kubes and Smith had to say at the combine and the fact that A. Smith was the first defensive FA they brought in for an interview. So, I think it's very inaccurate to characterise this signing as a "need to do something" .

GP
02-28-2009, 05:19 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if we used our first pick on a pass rushing RDE like Brown or Orakpo and use Smith as the guy on running downs as the rookie learns to play against the run.

And I think you'd be disappointed when we go any direction other than DL.

Those guys, at least Brown and Orakpo are more like dlinemen on a 3-4 defense than on an NFL-caliber 4-3 defense.

At least that's what the draft gurus say :whip:

The Pencil Neck
02-28-2009, 05:21 PM
And I think you'd be disappointed when we go any direction other than DL.

Those guys, at least Brown and Orakpo are more like dlinemen on a 3-4 defense than on an NFL-caliber 4-3 defense.

At least that's what the draft gurus say :whip:

Actually, I think Brown and Orakpo are more OLB's in a 3-4 scheme. Although that's arguable with Orakpo. He could easily be a 4-3 DE.

TexansSeminole
02-28-2009, 05:22 PM
For the record I think that Brown and Orakpo will both be 4-3 ends in the NFL.

Errant Hothy
02-28-2009, 05:23 PM
Orakpo may be a 4-3 DE, but there is no chance he lasts till the 15th pick; which renders the discussion about him rather pointless. Brown is also likely to be off the board at 15 as well.

GP
02-28-2009, 05:24 PM
Actually, I think Brown and Orakpo are more OLB's in a 3-4 scheme. Although that's arguable with Orakpo. He could easily be a 4-3 DE.

My bad. That's what I meant. Thanx for the correction.

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 05:28 PM
How often did you watch him? This signing needs to be seen mutually exclusively from the Weaver signing or any of those Casserly decisions. Your emotions have nothing to do with it. I'm going to go watch some Arizona games on NFL.com/replay and watch him closely. You have to pay a premium price to play in FA. I think this team has been and is being very measured in FA under Rick Smith.

Antonio Smith is rated closely with Chris Canty and has out-produced him the past 3 seasons. Watch how much more money Canty gets guaranteed. This is the market!

Also, it obvious the organization was very excited about this particular player- based on what Kubes and Smith had to say at the combine and the fact that A. Smith was the first defensive FA they brought in for an interview. So, I think it's very inaccurate to characterise this signing as a "need to do something" .

I saw him in the playoffs and he had a couple of nice plays - Safety against the Falcons being one of them. Have you seen him and based on your evaluations should he be one of the top 3 highest paid defensive players on the Texans? Talk about stirring the hornet's nest with Robinson and Ryans.

My emotions? Please do not project your emotions onto my emotionless takes on the team's transactions. The only emotion that has been evident is your ogling over all things Rick Smith. This signing does not help that locker room, future contractual negotiations with our currently signed players, let alone the field.

Once again, this is a Gardner/Bush play and Smith front loaded it which at least carried some intellect, but may blow up in his face. The only winner right now is Antonio Smith.

Specnatz
02-28-2009, 05:32 PM
Mario plays the other side. Someone to stand behind him in drills...sit beside him in the film room and explain to him what he's doing right and what he's doing wrong. Mario's skill set is so far off the charts, I do not see your point.

The Texans did sign someone to do this ... His name is Bill Kollar.

TexansSeminole
02-28-2009, 05:36 PM
Orakpo may be a 4-3 DE, but there is no chance he lasts till the 15th pick; which renders the discussion about him rather pointless. Brown is also likely to be off the board at 15 as well.

I feel a bit differently. I think your going to see a reluctance by 3-4 teams to take a conversion guy early.

Look at the first round of the last 3 drafts. The only conversion guy that worked out was Kamerion Wimbley in Cleveland and they picked him at 13.

Guys like Anthony Spencer, Manny Lawson, and Vernon Gholtson have not worked out.

DeMarcus Ware kind of guys are not common.

I think Orakpo will be nabbed by a 4-3 team because of the reluctance by the 3-4 teams and the fact that he warrants a high choice. I think Brown will last to 15. You may see a 3-4 team grab him in the second half of the first round but I just don't see any reason why he should be a high pick by a 3-4 team. I've watched every game of Everette Brown's career @ FSU and he has little to no experience playing in a 3-4 OLB type of role. When we ran zone blitzes it was very rare that Brown would be the one to drop back, even as our RDE.

Ckw
02-28-2009, 05:39 PM
I saw him in the playoffs and he had a couple of nice plays - Safety against the Falcons being one of them. Have you seen him and based on your evaluations should he be one of the top 3 highest paid defensive players on the Texans? Talk about stirring the hornet's nest with Robinson and Ryans.

My emotions? Please do not project your emotions onto my emotionless takes on the team's transactions. The only emotion that has been evident is your ogling over all things Rick Smith. This signing does not help that locker room, future contractual negotiations with our currently signed players, let alone the field.

Once again, this is a Gardner/Bush play and Smith front loaded it which at least carried some intellect, but may blow up in his face. The only winner right now is Antonio Smith.

Once again, sometimes you have to overpay in free agency to get the quality player. Antonio Smith is a quality NFL starter and with the way the draft is looking, there probably would not be a DE worth taking in the first two rounds. Signing Smith helps us a ton. It takes the pressure of drafting a DE off of us, and we can focus on one of the more "sure thing" players like Cushing, Matthews, Raji, Jenkins, etc.

Obviously, there are not any true sure things in the NFL draft but what I mean is these guys seem more NFL ready than Brown, Maybin, and even Orakpo. I think you are simply trying to not get your hopes up so you don't get let down. I strongly believe come the regular season you will be happy with this pickup.

HOU-TEX
02-28-2009, 05:43 PM
I don't have much of a problem with this signing. It appears to be a decent contract. I was actually thinking we would have to pay even more than that to land him the way FA has been going.

As far as the on field performance, like some others, I'm taking the way and see approach.

Nawzer
02-28-2009, 05:44 PM
Well first of all congratulations to Antonio Smith. He must be a happy man today! As for the signing itself, we won't know until he plays so I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the Texans front office. Obviously they targeted this guy and they got him. I think he'll be better than Weaver but then again Weaver set the bar so low that any decent player can outplay him.

Sal Rosenberg
02-28-2009, 05:45 PM
Peria Jerry = Darnell Dockett = very good things for Smith

Texan JBZ
02-28-2009, 05:46 PM
I think this a great pick-up for the Texans. I've read most of you guys' posts and I understand why some of you are so cynical seeing that most of the free agents the Texans have signed lately haven't panned out. But Smith passes the eye test to me. He isn't Weaver 2.0. Weaver was like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole since he came out of 3-4 system. Smith isn't that guy. He's played in 4-3, is strong at the point of attack, and a relentless rusher. Good pick-up by Smithiak!:texflag:Welcome to Houston Antonio Smith!

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 05:47 PM
I saw him in the playoffs and he had a couple of nice plays - Safety against the Falcons being one of them. Have you seen him and based on your evaluations should he be one of the top 3 highest paid defensive players on the Texans? Talk about stirring the hornet's nest with Robinson and Ryans.

My emotions? Please do not project your emotions onto my emotionless takes on the team's transactions. The only emotion that has been evident is your ogling over all things Rick Smith. This signing does not help that locker room, future contractual negotiations with our currently signed players, let alone the field.

Once again, this is a Gardner/Bush play and Smith front loaded it which at least carried some intellect, but may blow up in his face. The only winner right now is Antonio Smith.


Kaiser, I've not said anything about the player. I know he's got some explosiveness and I've been reading about him, and I've seen him when I've watched the Cards play. I'm not ogling over anything. You're cticising the signing based and comparing it to a Casserly style signing.

My point is that this is a player that the organization really wanted and, according to the current FA market and any reputable source I can find, they did not overpay for him. Also, I think it's very pessimistic to attack a signing before you really know much about the player.

I just watched the first half of the Atlanta game. Here are some observations:

1. He shuffled in an out quite a bit.
2. They moved him all over the line. I've already seen him lineup in all 4 DL spots
3. He's made a few plays penetrating the gaps from a DT spot.
4. I've not seen any special moves or speed rushes from the DE spot- but I've only seen him lineup there a couple times. He had a couple good bull rushes.
5. He held his ground on a number of double teams.

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 05:47 PM
Once again, sometimes you have to overpay in free agency to get the quality player. Antonio Smith is a quality NFL starter and with the way the draft is looking, there probably would not be a DE worth taking in the first two rounds. Signing Smith helps us a ton. It takes the pressure of drafting a DE off of us, and we can focus on one of the more "sure thing" players like Cushing, Matthews, Raji, Jenkins, etc.

Obviously, there are not any true sure things in the NFL draft but what I mean is these guys seem more NFL ready than Brown, Maybin, and even Orakpo. I think you are simply trying to not get your hopes up so you don't get let down. I strongly believe come the regular season you will be happy with this pickup.

Well, then it really depends on what your definition of a quality starter is. For the feeble Cardinals it was 13 starts in 2007 and 10 starts in 2008, before their miraculous run in the playoffs.

FWIW, the Cardinals were 5-1 in regular season games he did not start in 2008 and he had 5 games in which he registered four or more tackles which the Cardinals were in 1-4. Effective is not the operative word for me when dissecting his statistics, save for a nice run during the playoffs, based on the dollars we are outlaying.

ObsiWan
02-28-2009, 05:47 PM
For everyone that think the money is too high, just remember that these numbers are always deceptive. The contract could be heavily laced with incentives. The $12.5 mil gauranteed is the magic number, and thats not to out of line.

Also it's a five year deal and something tells me the heavy portion is in the back and not gauranteed. The guy is a high motor type so he probably has faith in his own ability. If his work ethic is as they say it is, he should at least be fun to watch on a D-Line with #90!!!!

That's the number I always focus on. $12.5 over 3 yrs for a starting DE isn't exactly breaking the bank.

TexansSeminole
02-28-2009, 05:55 PM
FWIW, the Cardinals were 5-1 in regular season games he did not start in 2008 and he had 5 games in which he registered four or more tackles which the Cardinals were in 1-4. Effective is not the operative word for me when dissecting his statistics, save for a nice run during the playoffs, based on the dollars we are outlaying.

I don't really understand this analysis. Are you trying to say the Cardinals were better when he was not the starter?

I think this is a good signing and clever way to lay out the money over the contract period.

PhilpW
02-28-2009, 05:56 PM
Isn't this contract less expensive than what you would have to pay an untested rookie draft choice?

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 05:57 PM
Kaiser, I've not said anything about the player. I know he's got some explosiveness and I've been reading about him, and I've seen him when I've watched the Cards play. I'm not ogling over anything. You're cticising the signing based and comparing it to a Casserly style signing. Also, you called him an underachiever and haven't explained why/where you get that information from.

My point is that this is a player that the organization really wanted and, according to the current FA market and any reputable source I can find, they did not overpay for him. Also, I think it's very pessimistic to attack a signing before you really know much about the player.

I just watched the first half of the Atlanta game. Here are some observations:

1. He shuffled in an out quite a bit.
2. They moved him all over the line. I've already seen him lineup in all 4 DL spots
3. He's made a few plays penetrating the gaps from a DT spot.
4. I've not seen any special moves or speed rushes from the DE spot- but I've only seen him lineup there a couple times. He had a couple good bull rushes.
5. He held his ground on a number of double teams.

I sincerely appreciate you reviewing the first half and based on your observations and from what I recall I like that he can play different positions, exhibit a bull rush and hold the middle. This is what Kollar wants, this is what most of us expect. The question is can we get that from him during a full regular season. The book is still out on that one.

In the end, we all win if he can perform his duty. However, I am not one to bite my tongue for a signing of a veteran player that has high expectations, based on the contract and you dutifully reminding us that he was on high on the FO/staff's list. :texflag:

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 06:01 PM
I don't really understand this analysis. Are you trying to say the Cardinals were better when he was not the starter?

I think this is a good signing and clever way to lay out the money over the contract period.

I believe I prefaced it by stating FWIW (for what it's worth). Moreover, it was a response to a post regarding the definition of a quality starter.

ObsiWan
02-28-2009, 06:03 PM
Amobi got $12.7 mil in guaranteed money when he was signed. He was drafted at #10. So factoring in inflation (to drive the cost up) and our #15 slot (which drives the price down) I'm thinking we paid Smith about the same money we paid Okoye. And Frank Bush knows what Smith can do. which brings me to the bottom line - someone mentioned this earlier: If this pickup was done with Frank Bush's blessings, I'm good with it.

JayCee
02-28-2009, 06:06 PM
is anyone aware of footage of this guy online?

Errant Hothy
02-28-2009, 06:06 PM
I think something that is getting overlooked is that Smith is argueable the dest DE in free agency (depending on who you read).

Lucky
02-28-2009, 06:06 PM
I am not excited about this signing, but willing to take a wait and see attitude. Regardless, Brian Gardner now has my attention.
For those who, like myself, had no idea who Brian Gardner (http://www.houstontexans.com/team/FrontOfficeBio.asp?front_office_id=177) was. He now has my attention.

I think Antonio Smith is a legit LDE and an upgrade from Anthony Weaver. I think Smith could provide an interior push if moved inside on passing downs. But, the Texans still need an edge rusher. This signing doesn't change that. I expect the Texans to find that player in the draft. It's a pretty deep draft for these DE/OLB hybrids, so it's not imperative that an edge rusher be taken in the 1st round. Just that the Texans find one.

The Pencil Neck
02-28-2009, 06:11 PM
is anyone aware of footage of this guy online?

Search at nfl.com.

kiwitexansfan
02-28-2009, 06:12 PM
From what I've read also most of Smith's pressures and sacks have come from shooting gaps as a DT on passing downs. Given this, I expect quite strongly that we are still looking for a DE pass rush specialist for those times when Smith slides inside.

Goatcheese
02-28-2009, 06:12 PM
Amobi got $12.7 mil in guaranteed money when he was signed. He was drafted at #10. So factoring in inflation (to drive the cost up) and our #15 slot (which drives the price down) I'm thinking we paid Smith about the same money we paid Okoye. And Frank Bush knows what Smith can do. which brings me to the bottom line - someone mentioned this earlier: If this pickup was done with Frank Bush's blessings, I'm good with it.

Okoye Signed a six-year, $15.4 million contract. The deal contains $12.785 million guaranteed. Another $2.3 million is available through incentives, including a fifth-year escalator of $2.2 million.

Smith signed a 5 year 35.5 million contract with 12.5 million in guaranteed money.

Some people seem to not understand the contract. The 12.5 million while payed out upfront as a signing bonus, will be spread out 2.5 million per year on the cap.

Year one would be a 3 million salary with 2.5 million pro rated signing bonus cap hit.

Year two would be 3.9 million salary with 2.5 million pro rated signing bonus cap hit.

Year three would be 4.6 million salary with 2.5 million pro rated signing bonus cap hit.

etc.

It isn't front loaded.

MojoMan
02-28-2009, 06:12 PM
Here is a link to a thread about the deal on an Arizona Cardinals board in case anyone is interested:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/antonios-gone-130760.html

Ckw
02-28-2009, 06:13 PM
Well, then it really depends on what your definition of a quality starter is.


Right now my definition for a quality DE is anyone better than Anthony Weaver. From everything I have read and seen of Antonio Smith, he is a hell of a lot better player than Weaver. Looking at the big picture, this signing keeps us from being forced to draft a DE and truly go after BPA.

imatexan
02-28-2009, 06:15 PM
Why would anyone be upset about this!
Its soo frustrating to hear him called Weaver part2.
Is NOTHING like Weaver.
I am glad we have a solid DE, which has been a need for a while.
This is a great pickup, gives me much more hope in our team next year!
Glad the Texans are being aggresive in the FA market.

disaacks3
02-28-2009, 06:15 PM
Have you seen him and based on your evaluations should he be one of the top 3 highest paid defensive players on the Texans? Talk about stirring the hornet's nest with Robinson and Ryans.

This signing does not help that locker room, future contractual negotiations with our currently signed players, let alone the field.

The only winner right now is Antonio Smith.
D-Rob's case is isolated and (IMHO) a case of 'unreality' on his part. He's getting paid MORE this year than he should be due to the uncertainty of his play (and recovery from serious injury). I was happy as a clam that he returned last year, but was FAR from being "blown away" by his play.

Ryans deserves to be paid handsomely and will get his paycheck, but the Texans were/are still trying to get through FA and see what they needed to spend. His whining via the press was the first unprofessional thing I've seen him do.

While the Smith signing most definitely comes with some ??? attached, it wasn't a ridiculously "out of whack" contract. I don't see this as creating the sort of locker room dynamite you're projecting either.

kiwitexansfan
02-28-2009, 06:18 PM
Here is a link to a thread about the deal on an Arizona Cardinals board in case anyone is interested:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/antonios-gone-130760.html

General feeling seems to be we overpaid for a solid player who has a great attitude.

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 06:22 PM
General feeling seems to be we overpaid for a solid player who has a great attitude.

Weaver 2: Defensive Suckaloo :)

PapaL
02-28-2009, 06:22 PM
I wouldn't say general feeling is we overpaid. I think it's split.

euro-Texan
02-28-2009, 06:26 PM
So we all agree this was a great move by the Texans? Finally we all agree.

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 06:28 PM
D-Rob's case is isolated and (IMHO) a case of 'unreality' on his part. He's getting paid MORE this year than he should be due to the uncertainty of his play (and recovery from serious injury). I was happy as a clam that he returned last year, but was FAR from being "blown away" by his play.

Ryans deserves to be paid handsomely and will get his paycheck, but the Texans were/are still trying to get through FA and see what they needed to spend. His whining via the press was the first unprofessional thing I've seen him do.

While the Smith signing most definitely comes with some ??? attached, it wasn't a ridiculously "out of whack" contract. I don't see this as creating the sort of locker room dynamite you're projecting either.

Of course it is isolated, but the dollars being thrown around still matter in the court of public ego, ie the locker room.

FWIW, this is our fourth Rosenhaus client on the team if memory serves me well - Smith, Winston, Myers and Barber - and I am not a big fan of playing with the devil especially when his clients are hot, as in a nice playoff run.

SheTexan
02-28-2009, 06:33 PM
He's now a TEXAN, and that's the bottom line. I'll support him loyally as long as he wears the Texan logo.

Welcome to Houston Antonio!!!!

barrett
02-28-2009, 06:35 PM
I'll leave the dollars and $ense up to you guys, I know 100 million is overpaying even for the best. It's all about the structure of your club's money. To me, when a deal is done you have to look at the bigger picture. What does this signing likely do the Texans 3 yeras from now? Where will we be?

I maintain that the biggest obstacle is going to be keeping quality players at good VALUE. So that, to me, means drafting guys that you don't have to pay big money to that can play in your system 4, 5, 6+ years and not cripple the financial infrastructure of the team.

If Smith's signing allows us to draft more confidently, or with more assurance that the players we are drafting will be worth their paycheck, then it's a good deal. If the Texans FO has questions about the "top tier" DE's in the draft then this signing is more about being able to draft guys later for less money. Maybe you have a relative "sure thing" in the first rounds at another position and this signing allows you to draft with confidence at those positions as well as drafting a more situational player at DE for a more reasonable amount.

I think so much more goes into this than just "is this guy worth x dollars?". Does this pickup give the Texans a better opportunity to increase depth and talent without creating a financial stress on future decisions?

I think, more than likely it does. We'll have to wait and see.

Go Texans.

ObsiWan
02-28-2009, 06:48 PM
Okoye Signed a six-year, $15.4 million contract. The deal contains $12.785 million guaranteed. Another $2.3 million is available through incentives, including a fifth-year escalator of $2.2 million.

Smith signed a 5 year 35.5 million contract with 12.5 million in guaranteed money.

Some people seem to not understand the contract. The 12.5 million while payed out upfront as a signing bonus, will be spread out 2.5 million per year on the cap.

Year one would be a 3 million salary with 2.5 million pro rated signing bonus cap hit.

Year two would be 3.9 million salary with 2.5 million pro rated signing bonus cap hit.

Year three would be 4.6 million salary with 2.5 million pro rated signing bonus cap hit.

etc.

It isn't front loaded.

I confess to being one of those in your "some people" dig.

Salary cap math makes my head hurt
:D

Big Lou
02-28-2009, 06:57 PM
ESPN reports that Smith will get $15.5 million in year one. I certainly hope that 80% of it is via incentive because at that price it could keep us from siging Dunta or Demeco.

Of course when it comes to the national on press they though Rick Smith was Rosencopters agent, so I don't really trust the figure.

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 06:58 PM
Okoye Signed a six-year, $15.4 million contract. The deal contains $12.785 million guaranteed. Another $2.3 million is available through incentives, including a fifth-year escalator of $2.2 million.

Smith signed a 5 year 35.5 million contract with 12.5 million in guaranteed money.

Some people seem to not understand the contract. The 12.5 million while payed out upfront as a signing bonus, will be spread out 2.5 million per year on the cap.

Year one would be a 3 million salary with 2.5 million pro rated signing bonus cap hit.

Year two would be 3.9 million salary with 2.5 million pro rated signing bonus cap hit.

Year three would be 4.6 million salary with 2.5 million pro rated signing bonus cap hit.

etc.

It isn't front loaded.

It needs to be front loaded in order for us to have room for our signings in 2011-2012 (assuing that the CBA will be extended/amended) - Mario, Schaub, Okoye, Slaton, D. Brown, Adibi, etc.

Moreover, he will have at least ~7m next year go against the cap, which will make him the second highest cap hit on the defensive side of the ball.

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 07:03 PM
ESPN reports that Smith will get $15.5 million in year one. I certainly hope that 80% of it is via incentive because at that price it could keep us from siging Dunta or Demeco.

Of course when it comes to the national on press they though Rick Smith was Rosencopters agent, so I don't really trust the figure.

If the contract is front-loaded as the reports indicate, that only helps with the Dunta/Demeco extensions. Dunta is already couning $10 million against this year's cap. If he's signed to a big deal, his cap hit this season would actually be reduced. We have the room this year so it makes a ton of sense to frontload A. Smith's deal.

barrett
02-28-2009, 07:12 PM
I'll leave the dollars and $ense up to you guys, I know 100 million is overpaying even for the best. It's all about the structure of your club's money. To me, when a deal is done you have to look at the bigger picture. What does this signing likely do the Texans 3 yeras from now? Where will we be?

I maintain that the biggest obstacle is going to be keeping quality players at good VALUE. So that, to me, means drafting guys that you don't have to pay big money to that can play in your system 4, 5, 6+ years and not cripple the financial infrastructure of the team.

If Smith's signing allows us to draft more confidently, or with more assurance that the players we are drafting will be worth their paycheck, then it's a good deal. If the Texans FO has questions about the "top tier" DE's in the draft then this signing is more about being able to draft guys later for less money. Maybe you have a relative "sure thing" in the first rounds at another position and this signing allows you to draft with confidence at those positions as well as drafting a more situational player at DE for a more reasonable amount.

I think so much more goes into this than just "is this guy worth x dollars?". Does this pickup give the Texans a better opportunity to increase depth and talent without creating a financial stress on future decisions?

I think, more than likely it does. We'll have to wait and see.

Go Texans.

PHAROAH
02-28-2009, 07:15 PM
This a very good pick guys let's not be negative this guy is coming from a 4-3 defense versus Weaver playing a 3-4 defense before he came to houston. Two different players.

Lucky
02-28-2009, 07:23 PM
This a very good pick guys let's not be negative this guy is coming from a 4-3 defense versus Weaver playing a 3-4 defense before he came to houston.
Actually, the Cards give a lot of different looks, including the 3-4. I do agree that Smith and Weaver are different. Smith has enough strength to get off blocks and push the pocket. Weaver has a better backpedal, though.

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 07:24 PM
Weaver has a better backpedal, though.

http://thinkersroom.com/blog/images/moonwalk.gif

ObsiWan
02-28-2009, 07:46 PM
http://thinkersroom.com/blog/images/moonwalk.gif

Now that's comedy!

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 07:50 PM
Now that's comedy!

Choreographed by Richard Smith, of course.

prostock101
02-28-2009, 08:00 PM
We could have signed a ham sandwich and done better than Weaver. AS should be a significant upgrade at the position. Maybe even better than the aforementioned sandwich.

Fox
02-28-2009, 08:14 PM
I think Antonio Smith is a legit LDE and an upgrade from Anthony Weaver. I think Smith could provide an interior push if moved inside on passing downs. But, the Texans still need an edge rusher.

Sums up my take. I like the signing, getting one of the more highly coveted defensive players this early in FA without handing out a crazy contract is a job well done, IMO. However I still feel like we need that edge rusher with an explosive first step.

Big Lou
02-28-2009, 08:18 PM
If the contract is front-loaded as the reports indicate, that only helps with the Dunta/Demeco extensions. Dunta is already couning $10 million against this year's cap. If he's signed to a big deal, his cap hit this season would actually be reduced. We have the room this year so it makes a ton of sense to frontload A. Smith's deal.


Good point.

I keep forgeting that Dunta was frachised and thus there is already a big number going against the cap. I guess because we've never franchised before.

Big Lou
02-28-2009, 08:22 PM
Sums up my take. I like the signing, getting one of the more highly coveted defensive players this early in FA without handing out a crazy contract is a job well done, IMO. However I still feel like we need that edge rusher with an explosive first step.

I would like to see a pass rush specialist DE drafting in the 4th.

Anway heres to Manning, Garrard , and Collins counting roof tiles!!!!!!

The Pencil Neck
02-28-2009, 08:23 PM
Of course when it comes to the national on press they though Rick Smith was Rosencopters agent, so I don't really trust the figure.

Maybe it's because Rosencopter's agent's name really is Rick Smith.

Joe Texan
02-28-2009, 08:25 PM
Mario is inches from the quarterback every play. if Smith can push just inches Mario's way the we got a quarterback eating D

DocBar
02-28-2009, 08:31 PM
Can't judge the guy until he plays in our system.

We know what Weaver did for us and at what price tag.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water on this one.I completely agree with this. I

Damn...that's a lot of money those first two years

I'm good with the signing. I think he will be even better with us than he was with the Cards because he has Mario on the other side.

If we get a stud outside lb in the first round, then maybe cb in the 2nd, dt 3rd, rb and safety with our 4ths, ol 5th, qb 6th, and wr 7th look out. Of course it all depends on what we do in the remainder of free agency. Can't wait until April. Why would you list a position and a draft pick together like that? Too many "what if's" involved with what palyers are left on the board. One of the reasons I like this signing is that it gives us flexibilty on draft day to go BPA at several postions. Sory, but that's just a pet peeve of mine.

Mario, Smith, TJ, Okam, Bulman, Robinson, Cochran. That's 7 guys on a 4-man line. I suspect we'll grab a DL somewhere in the draft...but it'd have to be "THE GUY" who is available, the guy whom Smithiakush deem to be worth it in rounds 1-3. And those probabilities are like overpaying for suited connectors when the flop comes K-K-A.

You might need to go ahead and research how much tar, firewood, and cauldrons are selling for these days. You're probably not going to be happy. Very good analogy!! Why do we HAVE to take a DL in rnds1-3 to make someone happy? NFL history is LOADED with more draft day busts than gems.See also Reggie Bush, for starters. Smithiak has earned my trust on draft day.

how does this money compare to the money some unproven rookie would get should we pick a DE at #15??
THAT is a good question. I think it's favored on AS's side(gonna be some fun with THAT contraction over the years) because if Bush's in-depth knowledge of AS.
How often did you watch him? This signing needs to be seen mutually exclusively from the Weaver signing or any of those Casserly decisions. Your emotions have nothing to do with it. I'm going to go watch some Arizona games on NFL.com/replay and watch him closely. You have to pay a premium price to play in FA. I think this team has been and is being very measured in FA under Rick Smith.

Antonio Smith is rated closely with Chris Canty and has out-produced him the past 3 seasons. Watch how much more money Canty gets guaranteed. This is the market!

Also, it obvious the organization was very excited about this particular player- based on what Kubes and Smith had to say at the combine and the fact that A. Smith was the first defensive FA they brought in for an interview. So, I think it's very inaccurate to characterise this signing as a "need to do something" . I know next to nothing about AS, but I trust the FO to do what's best for the team. I don't think Smith would've signed him or Bush push for it if AS didn't possess another level of play that can be coached up and schemed for.

Allstar
02-28-2009, 09:49 PM
Here's a neat story from a Cardinal fan at the Cards' board:


I hope the best for Antonio. But I'm going to miss him so much. I sat right behind him in section 106, and everytime I had something to tell him, he would answer back. I remember on MNF when Allen Rossum returned the openening kickoff, I put my head down and shook my head. Then I heard Antonio say, "Hey! Hey! " and I then looked in his direction and he then said, "We aint done, we just started!". He never quit! The interaction he had with us (the fans) is what I'm going to miss the most! Antonio, you will be a Cardinal forever in my heart! Good luck in Houston.

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=40807&page=4

texansdrummer
02-28-2009, 10:13 PM
Mario is inches from the quarterback every play. if Smith can push just inches Mario's way the we got a quarterback eating D


I like this signing exactly because of what Joe stated. Firstly, Antonio wasn't playing across from Mario at Arizona, secondly, I look forward to seeing how this translates with a more aggressive scheme for BOTH players. I would imagine that Antonio's stats are gonna go up a bit playing here.

4Texans
02-28-2009, 10:20 PM
Here's a neat story from a Cardinal fan at the Cards' board:

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=40807&page=4

Nice to hear things like that. I'm glad he's a Texan now, and can't wait to see him on the field for 2009.

:wesmantexanfan:

TEXANRED
02-28-2009, 10:22 PM
Only in America can you turn 41 tackles and 3.5 sacks into 15 million dollars.

Big Lou
02-28-2009, 10:34 PM
Maybe it's because Rosencopter's agent's name really is Rick Smith.

No way.

That's pretty funny.

b0ng
02-28-2009, 10:44 PM
After watching the press conference Smith gave, I don't think we'll have to worry about this guy showing up fat, sloppy, or out of shape come OTA's. I think he has respect for Bush as a Coach which might put some extra motivation in for him.

Thorn
02-28-2009, 10:59 PM
Well, it's done. I just hope he pans out. There is no doubt in my mind this is an upgrade over Weaver, how much remains to be seen.

beerlover
02-28-2009, 11:07 PM
this was really a no brainer signing. the Texans had to address their DL & actually got one of the bigger free agents available who fit the direction they wanted to head. this explains alot as to why other contracts may have stalled because they needed the cap room to negoiate his contract.

you know I never thought too much about Arizona defense just figured they tried to outscore opponets with that high powered offense, but once they made it into the playoffs the defense actually played some............defense. Dockett of couse was a beast but no more so than Mario. Karlos Dansby is the real deal but is he any better than DeMeco? the funny thing was their percieved lack of pass rush was a legitimate RDE, yet they still wrecked havoc in the backfield all the way into the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl.

I expect nothing less from the Texans now that Antonio Smith is added to the DL & the Texans still have the 15th pick or rest of the draft to address that all important RDE.

Mailman
02-28-2009, 11:17 PM
NFLN guy called Antonio Smith the best value signing thus far.

Goatcheese
02-28-2009, 11:29 PM
Is this pretty much it for the Texans big Free agent signings? By rough estimation, after tagging D-Rob, tendering our RFA, resigning Wilson for 3 years 11 mil, and picking up Smith for 5 years 35 mil, the Texans have somewhere around 17-18 million left in cap space. They will need ~5 mil for their draft picks, 3-5 mil in reserve/emergency cap space, and 1.5 mil for whichever QB they sign. That only leaves about 5.5-7.5 mil, and they will need most of that to sign players for depth.

I was expecing a bigger offseason to be honest. We pretty much stood pat, and picked up an overpaid guy who wasn't even a full time starter for his old team. The Texans are on the cusp of the playoffs, and most people seemed to think they would make some big moves to become competitors. That really hasn't happened.

Thorn
02-28-2009, 11:34 PM
The Texans are on the cusp of the playoffs, and most people seemed to think they would make some big moves to become competitors. That really hasn't happened.


We just improved our pass rush, that's a start. I'm sure there is more to come. I don't think A Smith is a godsend or anything, but he is better than what we had, and that's always a good thing.

Goatcheese
02-28-2009, 11:42 PM
We just improved our pass rush, that's a start. I'm sure there is more to come. I don't think A Smith is a godsend or anything, but he is better than what we had, and that's always a good thing.

Is 3.5 sacks/season really going to have a big impact on the defense? :thinking:

b0ng
02-28-2009, 11:44 PM
Is 3.5 sacks/season really going to have a big impact on the defense? :thinking:

Is Smith garunteed to only have 3.5 sacks a season?

Thorn
02-28-2009, 11:48 PM
Is 3.5 sacks/season really going to have a big impact on the defense? :thinking:

that's more than Weaver had

WesmanTexanfan
02-28-2009, 11:51 PM
3.5 sacks plus Mario and hopefully an improved Okoye maybe even an upgrade at the other DT position, that should improve his sack total to around 7-8, and more people running in his direction thus more tackles.....

net gain of 7-8 sacks plus more tackles....

I like it...

b0ng
02-28-2009, 11:57 PM
I'm not going to say the dude is going to rise up and double his sack total, but as far as his character, work ethic, and respect for the current DC I am behind this signing. If he plays like Weaver for 2 years, then there's not much I can do about it, but at least the team is signing FA players to the right positions of need.

Thorn
02-28-2009, 11:59 PM
3.5 sacks plus Mario and hopefully an improved Okoye maybe even an upgrade at the other DT position, that should improve his sack total to around 7-8, and more people running in his direction thus more tackles.....

net gain of 7-8 sacks plus more tackles....

I like it...


Yep. I'm not saying Smith is gonna take us to the super bowl or anything silly like that, I'm just saying we improved our pass rush. And that is always a good thing. I still think drafting a defensive lineman (any position) is still a good idea on the first day of the draft.

barrett
03-01-2009, 12:29 AM
He certainly talks good. That's one good trait. He sounds kind of like a drill sargent on pain killers. Or maybe what Demeco will sound like in 10 years if he keeps smoking and drinking.

We'll see!

TEXANRED
03-01-2009, 12:34 AM
Yep. I'm not saying Smith is gonna take us to the super bowl or anything silly like that, I'm just saying we improved our pass rush. And that is always a good thing. I still think drafting a defensive lineman (any position) is still a good idea on the first day of the draft.

He is 3.5x better than Weaver

The Pencil Neck
03-01-2009, 12:44 AM
He is 3.5x better than Weaver

He would be 3.5x better than Weaver if Weaver had gotten 1 sack. If Weaver had gotten 0.5 sacks, then he'd be 7x better than Weaver. But Weaver got 0 sacks and you can't divide by 0. So it's undefined how much better than Weaver he is. It approaches infinity, however.

TEXANRED
03-01-2009, 12:50 AM
He would be 3.5x better than Weaver if Weaver had gotten 1 sack. If Weaver had gotten 0.5 sacks, then he'd be 7x better than Weaver. But Weaver got 0 sacks and you can't divide by 0. So it's undefined how much better than Weaver he is. It approaches infinity, however.

:spit:

TheRealJoker
03-01-2009, 12:58 AM
We just picked up a high motor DE opposite Mario. Kollar loves the high motor guys and I bet he's looking forward to coaching this guy up. Smith's tenacity will improve our pass rush even if he doesn't get sacks because he'll push the QB to Mario's side or make him step up to an improved Okoye.

Hopefully we upgrade the speed and overall athleticism in the draft. We should still look for a good 1st step guy but we've really gotta get some athletes in the back 7 with some speed to give our DL some turnovers in exchange for all that pressure they'll be creating!!!

mexican_texan
03-01-2009, 01:07 AM
Is 3.5 sacks/season really going to have a big impact on the defense? :thinking:
Mario has huge plays without ever touching the QB. Stats are nice, but a lineman's value can't be measured by numbers. He performed in the playoffs, something Weaver never did.

Ole Miss Texan
03-01-2009, 01:13 AM
What seperates Rick Smith from the internet know it alls is that he realizes most of the time past stats can be meaningless. We're not paying for 3.5 sacks. We're paying for how he fits into this team. How does he make this team better/ how does he make OTHER PLAYERS on this team play better.

For a relevant comparison. Just look at Shane Battier. When he's on the court, he makes the other players on the team better. He makes the players on the other team have a much harder time. He may not get the PPG, RBG, etc of other players but he's a really important part of the TEAM.

Jackie Chiles
03-01-2009, 01:17 AM
Mario has huge plays without ever touching the QB. Stats are nice, but a lineman's value can't be measured by numbers. He performed in the playoffs, something Weaver never did.

I agree completely with this. Smith is a disruptor, he will have some solid stats but if he plays even half as well as he did in the playoffs/Superbowl he will be spending a ton of time in the opposing backfield and his impact will go beyond those stats. I would be willing to bet that even if he doesn't get a large amount of sacks individually our team sack record is officially in jeopardy especially if we draft an OLB with pass rush skills. I imagine we will be looking for a pass rush specialist somewhere in the draft as well. We pretty much doubled the amount of NFL players on our D-line and if Amobi steps up this year, all the better.

Big Poundcake
03-01-2009, 01:20 AM
There is no doubt in my mind this is an upgrade over Weaver, how much remains to be seen.
Significant in my opinion.

Ole Miss Texan
03-01-2009, 02:01 AM
DE to have opposite Mario was arguably our biggest need on the entire team and of the offseason. We signed a guy that apparently our front office had their sights on from the start and it was for a reasonable amount.

I have no idea why some people are b*tchin' about it. Would Julius Peppers, commanding 3x the guaranteed amount be that much better? What other DEs out there would be an overwhelming upgrade over Smith and how much more would they cost?

DocBar
03-01-2009, 03:23 AM
Choreographed by Richard Smith, of course.THAT'S humor!!!!!!

keyser
03-01-2009, 04:24 AM
DE to have opposite Mario was arguably our biggest need on the entire team and of the offseason. We signed a guy that apparently our front office had their sights on from the start and it was for a reasonable amount.

I have no idea why some people are b*tchin' about it. Would Julius Peppers, commanding 3x the guaranteed amount be that much better? What other DEs out there would be an overwhelming upgrade over Smith and how much more would they cost?

OK, overall I like the signing - I am glad to have him here. But, I think what people are griping about is that he's getting paid a lot (i.e. not a "reasonable" amount) for merely OK production.

Based on the numbers earlier (and someone else posted this earlier), if we assume the guaranteed money was a signing bonus, his contract comes to:
12.5 – Signing Bonus (cap hit of 2.5 Million per year)
3.0 – Year 1 Salary - total cap hit of $5.5 Million
3.9 – Year 2 Salary - total cap hit of $6.4 Million
4.6 – Year 3 Salary - total cap hit of $7.1 Million
11.5 – Years 4 and 5 (for fun, let’s call it 5.3 and 6.2, giving total cap hits of $7.8 Million and $8.7 Million)

Those aren't cheap numbers - the last one is approaching the current frachise tag cost for DEs (I expect it'll be higher by that point, though). And, as others have pointed out, he is now our 2nd highest paid defensive player after Dunta - more than Mario (though his salary blows up next year), more than Demeco, way more than first round DL picks Okoye and TJ. For that price, he'll be expected to produce at a high level - to be one of the standouts on our defense. And yet his history seems to indicate that he's merely a solid, not spectacular player. I think a lot of people would have rather gone with a cheaper (but less reliable) DE option (including drafting one), and spent the money on players like Demeco and Dunta instead.

Of course, Weaver's numbers weren't cheap either (last year he had a cap hit of $6.2 Million, and this year just his dead money hits us for $5.4 Million!!!). If we're going to be paying those prices, which it looks like we have to do for a good DE, I'd much rather do it for Smith than for Weaver.

On another note, I wonder whether the size of his contract actually makes DE a low priority - given the amount of money invested in Smith and Mario, it wouldn't make much sense to hand another large contract to a DE. So, rather than turning DE from a "need" to a "want", this signing might have turned it all the way to a "don't want".

Grams
03-01-2009, 08:04 AM
Welcome to Houston Antonio!! I am very glad you signed with us.

All I ask is that I hear you name being mentioned during the game more than once per game. (unlike your predesessor who was rarely mentioned in any game.)
Tackles, assist tackles, QB hurries, disrupt the backfield, SACKS, asst Sacks, tipped passes, etc. Anything to be a pain in the butt to the other offense will work just fine as that will be a whole lot more than we had.

I will reserve any other comments till after you have played several games as only then can one see if you are worth what you were signed for. I am optimistic that you will turn out to be well worth the contract you signed.

I think having a "sought after" player sign with the Texas is a step forward for this team. Especially having him come here first and signing before going to the Giants and other teams. I think this shows that other players are seeing the forward progress this team is starting to make and they want to be a part of it.

GO TEXANS!!!!

gafftop
03-01-2009, 09:08 AM
Haven't read all posts previous, but I feel a lot better about this trade knowing Bush coached him in the beginning of his Pro career. I remember watching the Texans last year and noticing a guy that looked like he could barely run. Guess who, Weaver. May have been hurt, but I don't think so.

I think we have coaches and management that have a clue now, and I think we are definitely going along the right path. Now we just need to continue to make the right moves and get some breaks during the season. I for one am optimistic about the Texans future.

One area that I think the Texans are not prioritizing enough is running back. One play and we are history. Slaton I think will not last long taking prolonged pounding. I know he was spectacular last year, but I think we were lucky.
We need another quality prospect and a proven veteran on the cheap. I am not saying break the bank on the veteran one by any means.

Watch and learn from the Pats. Not a Pats fan but I sure respect their football moves. They know when to make the moves and trade players at their peaks while they still have value. They don't get hung up on fan favorites. (Cassel and Vrabel) They make good moves bringing veterans in that actually help. I for one was sad that we did not get Taylor. I know OLD backs, but Taylor seemed to still have IT. Contract only $5mill for 2 years not crazy. That is the type deal the Texans need for veteran RB.

All above my opinion only. Thanks

MojoMan
03-01-2009, 09:23 AM
One area that I think the Texans are not prioritizing enough is running back. One play and we are history. Slaton I think will not last long taking prolonged pounding. I know he was spectacular last year, but I think we were lucky. We need another quality prospect and a proven veteran on the cheap. I am not saying break the bank on the veteran one by any means.

Great point. I don't think we are done in free agency yet. We still need to pick up a veteran running back.

CloakNNNdagger
03-01-2009, 09:33 AM
OK, overall I like the signing - I am glad to have him here. But, I think what people are griping about is that he's getting paid a lot (i.e. not a "reasonable" amount) for merely OK production.

Based on the numbers earlier (and someone else posted this earlier), if we assume the guaranteed money was a signing bonus, his contract comes to:
12.5 – Signing Bonus (cap hit of 2.5 Million per year)
3.0 – Year 1 Salary - total cap hit of $5.5 Million
3.9 – Year 2 Salary - total cap hit of $6.4 Million
4.6 – Year 3 Salary - total cap hit of $7.1 Million
11.5 – Years 4 and 5 (for fun, let’s call it 5.3 and 6.2, giving total cap hits of $7.8 Million and $8.7 Million)

Those aren't cheap numbers - the last one is approaching the current frachise tag cost for DEs (I expect it'll be higher by that point, though). And, as others have pointed out, he is now our 2nd highest paid defensive player after Dunta - more than Mario (though his salary blows up next year), more than Demeco, way more than first round DL picks Okoye and TJ. For that price, he'll be expected to produce at a high level - to be one of the standouts on our defense. And yet his history seems to indicate that he's merely a solid, not spectacular player. I think a lot of people would have rather gone with a cheaper (but less reliable) DE option (including drafting one), and spent the money on players like Demeco and Dunta instead.

Of course, Weaver's numbers weren't cheap either (last year he had a cap hit of $6.2 Million, and this year just his dead money hits us for $5.4 Million!!!). If we're going to be paying those prices, which it looks like we have to do for a good DE, I'd much rather do it for Smith than for Weaver.

On another note, I wonder whether the size of his contract actually makes DE a low priority - given the amount of money invested in Smith and Mario, it wouldn't make much sense to hand another large contract to a DE. So, rather than turning DE from a "need" to a "want", this signing might have turned it all the way to a "don't want".


To put it in perspective, the only Guaranteed money is 12.5 million........by no means a break the bank risk for the potential benefits of a promising missing piece of the puzzle.

TexansSeminole
03-01-2009, 10:29 AM
Is 3.5 sacks/season really going to have a big impact on the defense? :thinking:

That's like saying a corner only gives you interceptions.

DEs do alot more than just provide sacks.

If all Mario did was provide sacks he wouldn't be half the player he is.

dalemurphy
03-01-2009, 10:39 AM
Yesterday, I went back and watched a few Cardinal games from last season, focusing on Smith:

1. They moved him all over the line. IN one game, I saw him play all 4 DL positions in the first half.

2. He held his ground on double teams very well.

3. He has an excellent intial burst off the line.

4. I didn't see any elite moves from the edge- more of a power rusher... He does have that right hand club move to the inside that Reggie White made famous- he just isn't as much of a threat to hit the edge fast, IMO.

5. Consistently in the backfield and aware of where the ball is.

6. Played only about 60% of the snaps- they had lots of oddball packages and he shared some time with C. Campbell- However, he was clearly the better player of the two.

7. Design of the defense sometimes would send him on stunts and twists where it was clearly his job to occupy multiple blockers- he did those things with willingness and effort.

edo783
03-01-2009, 11:10 AM
Yesterday, I went back and watched a few Cardinal games from last season, focusing on Smith:

1. They moved him all over the line. IN one game, I saw him play all 4 DL positions in the first half.

2. He held his ground on double teams very well.

3. He has an excellent intial burst off the line.

4. I didn't see any elite moves from the edge- more of a power rusher... He does have that right hand club move to the inside that Reggie White made famous- he just isn't as much of a threat to hit the edge fast, IMO.

5. Consistently in the backfield and aware of where the ball is.

6. Played only about 60% of the snaps- they had lots of oddball packages and he shared some time with C. Campbell- However, he was clearly the better player of the two.

7. Design of the defense sometimes would send him on stunts and twists where it was clearly his job to occupy multiple blockers- he did those things with willingness and effort.

Sounds good. Thanks for the info and the effort do do the research Dale.

beerlover
03-01-2009, 11:38 AM
Yesterday, I went back and watched a few Cardinal games from last season, focusing on Smith:

1. They moved him all over the line. IN one game, I saw him play all 4 DL positions in the first half.

2. He held his ground on double teams very well.

3. He has an excellent intial burst off the line.

4. I didn't see any elite moves from the edge- more of a power rusher... He does have that right hand club move to the inside that Reggie White made famous- he just isn't as much of a threat to hit the edge fast, IMO.

5. Consistently in the backfield and aware of where the ball is.

6. Played only about 60% of the snaps- they had lots of oddball packages and he shared some time with C. Campbell- However, he was clearly the better player of the two.

7. Design of the defense sometimes would send him on stunts and twists where it was clearly his job to occupy multiple blockers- he did those things with willingness and effort.

yes, nice work :goodpost:

nunusguy
03-01-2009, 01:02 PM
Here's my question ? Why do we even need Smith when we've already got a guy on our roster who's the best strong-side defensive-end to come out of college since 2002 when Julius Peppers went into the Draft ?

V3rm0nt3r
03-01-2009, 01:06 PM
Here's my question ? Why do we even need Smith when we've already got a guy on our roster who's the best strong-side defensive-end to come out of college since 2002 when Julius Peppers went into the Draft ?

from what i've gathered from previous posts (mostly Dale's) the guy is versitiale. he probably won't be used at all the positions he was when he was in Arizona and will probably be a predominantly weak side guy.

Old School
03-01-2009, 02:04 PM
Here's my question ? Why do we even need Smith when we've already got a guy on our roster who's the best strong-side defensive-end to come out of college since 2002 when Julius Peppers went into the Draft ?
No offense but did you sleep through the last season? All the opposition had to do last year was make sure someone picked up Mario. They never even had to give more than an second thought to the rest of the line. That is the main reason Mario was always just out of reach of the QB. Now, if Smith can even get a little pressure to make the other teams at least acknowledge his presence then that gives Mario a little more time adn I think that is all he will need to add another 50% to his sack totals. Overpaid/underpaid I don't care. It is an upgrade and I think it will pay off for another pro bowl for Mario and our first winning season!!:texflag:

I know it sounds like Koolaid but I am willing to put money down that our line will be improved because of this pick up and because our line improves, our secondary will see a little improvement from it.

Thorn
03-01-2009, 02:09 PM
I know it sounds like Koolaid but I am willing to put money down that our line will be improved because of this pick up and because our line improves, our secondary will see a little improvement from it.


I'll buy some of that Koolaid. :)

I don't think Smith is going to tear up the league, but as Old School said, just having to pay attention to someone on the other side of Mario gives Mario a better chance to do his thing.

thunderkyss
03-01-2009, 02:36 PM
Mario, Smith, TJ, Okam, Bulman, Robinson, Cochran. That's 7 guys on a 4-man line. I suspect we'll grab a DL somewhere in the draft...but it'd have to be "THE GUY" who is available, the guy whom Smithiakush deem to be worth it in rounds 1-3. And those probabilities are like overpaying for suited connectors when the flop comes K-K-A.

You might need to go ahead and research how much tar, firewood, and cauldrons are selling for these days. You're probably not going to be happy.

Wow, I can't believe Okoye didn't make your list. Maybe we should be more worried about the DT position, and not the DE.

You also didn't mention Nading. Just saying.

Now, I DVR'd all the play-off games, and I've decided to go back and watch this guy, just to see what we got.

Whether we overpaid, or whatnot is not my concern, because cap implications are over my head..... I'm not ashamed to admit.

But if I were Frank Bush.. I'd be doing back flips. No he's not the next Peppers, or Mario. But he's solid, smart, young, and he can play. I've got to imagine Bush recognized this when he was in AZ, and brought him to the attention of the FO.

He's got technique, vision, speed, and the ability.

Of course I hope we get more out of him than his career numbers show. I'm hoping he's like a haynesworth, in that he needed some time to develop, and now whatever it was that needed to click, clicked.

That's what his play-off performance would suggest.

Another thing. If the play-offs were any indication, they switched between the 4-3 and the 3-4 so many times, that Smith wasn't on the field through no fault of his own.

If he can play at the level he's shown in the play-offs for an extended period of time, he can definitely bring in double digit sacks. I don't think we could be as optomistic about any prospect we might get w/the 15th overall, or later pick.

So I'm good with the signing.

Jackie Chiles
03-01-2009, 05:13 PM
I saw some preliminary numbers on Canty signing with the Giants, 6 years 42mil 17.5 guaranteed to switch from a 3-4 to a 4-3. Makes Smith's contract look quite a bit better.

dalemurphy
03-01-2009, 08:11 PM
Fair question, just as "how does this money compare to other unproven veterans who made three nice plays in the playoffs" is.


With Chris Canty's signing today, we can compare apples to apples. The two are the same age and essentially at the same point in their careers. Both are quasi- DE/DTs.

Statistics over past 2 seasons:
Antonio Smith 9 sacks (exluding playoffs) 69 tackles 3 FF
Chris Canty 6.5 sacks 55 tackles 0 FF

Canty is 3 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier but both play a very similar game- strong against the run and good first steps and usually end up in the backfield on their feet with their head up. Both also, essentially, played a combination of DT and DE, moving around quite a bit and sometimes stunting and occupying blockers for others to get free.

Terms of new deals:
Antonio Smith 5 years $35 million $12.5 mil signing bonus
Chris Canty 6 years $42 million $17.5 mil signing bonus



Now, I realize that it's not a perfect comparison but in terms of the marketplace it's a very good measuring stick. I think, based on these numbers, that it's fair to say that we didn't overpay. Now, over the next couple years we'll find out if we scouted well and picked the right guy.

ChampionTexan
03-01-2009, 08:19 PM
With Chris Canty's signing today, we can compare apples to apples. The two are the same age and essentially at the same point in their careers. Both are quasi- DE/DTs.

Statistics over past 2 seasons:
Antonio Smith 9 sacks (exluding playoffs) 69 tackles 3 FF
Chris Canty 6.5 sacks 55 tackles 0 FF

Canty is 3 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier but both play a very similar game- strong against the run and good first steps and usually end up in the backfield on their feet with their head up. Both also, essentially, played a combination of DT and DE, moving around quite a bit and sometimes stunting and occupying blockers for others to get free.

Terms of new deals:
Antonio Smith 5 years $35 million $12.5 mil signing bonus
Chris Canty 6 years $42 million $17.5 mil signing bonus



Now, I realize that it's not a perfect comparison but in terms of the marketplace it's a very good measuring stick. I think, based on these numbers, that it's fair to say that we didn't overpay. Now, over the next couple years we'll find out if we scouted well and picked the right guy.

I think Canty also got more playing time too. At least he started all 32 games over that two-year period as opposed to 23 starts for Smith.

dalemurphy
03-01-2009, 08:24 PM
I think Canty also got more playing time too. At least he started all 32 games over that two-year period as opposed to 23 starts for Smith.

You're right but one could also argue that Antonio Smith was fresher and was able to play at a higher intensity level when he was in. But, you're right. Smith made more plays in significantly fewer snaps.

beerlover
03-01-2009, 08:49 PM
You're right but one could also argue that Antonio Smith was fresher and was able to play at a higher intensity level when he was in. But, you're right. Smith made more plays in significantly fewer snaps.

thus more dynamic used in rotation with speed rushing specialist. that need still exists & should be addressed 1st day of the draft :)

Second Honeymoon
03-01-2009, 09:00 PM
With Chris Canty's signing today, we can compare apples to apples. The two are the same age and essentially at the same point in their careers. Both are quasi- DE/DTs.

Statistics over past 2 seasons:
Antonio Smith 9 sacks (exluding playoffs) 69 tackles 3 FF
Chris Canty 6.5 sacks 55 tackles 0 FF

Canty is 3 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier but both play a very similar game- strong against the run and good first steps and usually end up in the backfield on their feet with their head up. Both also, essentially, played a combination of DT and DE, moving around quite a bit and sometimes stunting and occupying blockers for others to get free.

Terms of new deals:
Antonio Smith 5 years $35 million $12.5 mil signing bonus
Chris Canty 6 years $42 million $17.5 mil signing bonus



Now, I realize that it's not a perfect comparison but in terms of the marketplace it's a very good measuring stick. I think, based on these numbers, that it's fair to say that we didn't overpay. Now, over the next couple years we'll find out if we scouted well and picked the right guy.

I gotta agree with ya DM. I think Rich Smith did a good job getting a guy at his price and not having to pay the guy as much guaranteed money as some would have feared. I don't think Antonio is going to solve our pass rush problems by himself but he adds another colt to the stable so at this price, its not bad.

b0ng
03-02-2009, 12:46 AM
Keep in mind Canty played in a straight 3-4 while Smith played in a 4-3 that used some 3-4 looks.

Kaiser Toro
03-02-2009, 08:56 AM
With Chris Canty's signing today, we can compare apples to apples. The two are the same age and essentially at the same point in their careers. Both are quasi- DE/DTs.

Statistics over past 2 seasons:
Antonio Smith 9 sacks (exluding playoffs) 69 tackles 3 FF
Chris Canty 6.5 sacks 55 tackles 0 FF

Canty is 3 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier but both play a very similar game- strong against the run and good first steps and usually end up in the backfield on their feet with their head up. Both also, essentially, played a combination of DT and DE, moving around quite a bit and sometimes stunting and occupying blockers for others to get free.

Terms of new deals:
Antonio Smith 5 years $35 million $12.5 mil signing bonus
Chris Canty 6 years $42 million $17.5 mil signing bonus



Now, I realize that it's not a perfect comparison but in terms of the marketplace it's a very good measuring stick. I think, based on these numbers, that it's fair to say that we didn't overpay. Now, over the next couple years we'll find out if we scouted well and picked the right guy.

To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "I am not so sure you know what that means." :)

Moreover, just because another team overpays, is not a measuring stick to say we did not overpay.

El Tejano
03-02-2009, 09:05 AM
I like the fact that he wanted to be here and didn't want to go anywhere else once he came here. He also speaks in team terms. Us, we, the team, the DL.

HoustonFrog
03-02-2009, 09:14 AM
I'm not sold on this guy completely and think he may disappear some but his upside and age make it worth a shot. If you can get what he showed late for alot of the season than it will be worth it. I do like one thing...."attitude." I like listening to LZ this time of year because he can spell out the pros and cons pretty quickly. His dad mentioned that this guy talked alot of noise during the SB and that Pitt linemen hated him. So maybe you have a guy that can get under some teams skin finally.

thunderkyss
03-02-2009, 09:44 AM
To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "I am not so sure you know what that means." :)

Moreover, just because another team overpays, is not a measuring stick to say we did not overpay.

I'm with KT on this one.

I mean I like the Antonio signing, but using Chris Canty's deal as a comparison isn't very good.

The Giants overpaid for what will end up being a DT, and has no bearing what-so-ever on Antonio Smiths deal.

And I'm a Chris Canty fan, but he's not a 4-3 DE in this league.

Errant Hothy
03-02-2009, 10:04 AM
Peter King's take on the signing:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/03/01/freeagency/3.html

4. I think the best deal of the weekend was Antonio Smith, the versatile defensive lineman for the Cardinals -- and the best defensive lineman they had, one of their former coaches told me at the Super Bowl -- going to the Texans for $7 million per. "I think it's going to be an electrifying year for our defensive line. We [Mario Williams and Smith] are going to be a great pair. We're going to cause a lot of havoc for offensive linemen,'' Smith said.

This is not a good signing by the Texans for the money. It's a great signing.

Kaiser Toro
03-02-2009, 10:05 AM
Here is an article from AJ, speaking his thoughts. Hopefully we are both wrong on our thinking.

snippet:
Mike Florio of profootballtalk.com reported that Smith will earn $15.5 million in his first year, $19.4 million (cumulative) in the first two years, and $24 million (cumulative) over the first three.

Winston's guaranteed money is being paid out over the first two years of his contract and he is scheduled to make a $4.5 million base salary in 2010.

In other words, Smith will make as much in his first year ($15.5 million) as Winston will make in his first three years ($14.5 million).

Smith's haul is primarily a function of his leverage as an 'in-demand' unrestricted free agent, and it being early in the free agency process.

Some of the numbers may cause frustration in Dunta and DeMeco's camp (there goes 'my' money), but that's the way this business is conducted. Get what you can, when you can, within the framework of the rules and the leverage you carry.

From what I've seen over the years, the Texans negotiate fairly and certainly don't have a reputation for low-balling it's players - especially their star players. But the ongoing negotiations with Dunta and DeMeco bears watching. You don't want unhappy campers in your locker room - especially when they're supposed to be your leaders.

But what it comes down to in many cases, is the timing of it all. And in this case, the timing couldn't have been any better for Smith.

http://www.examiner.com/x-778-Houston-Texans-Examiner~y2009m3d1-Big-paydays-in-NFL-not-just-a-function-of-performance

nunusguy
03-02-2009, 10:17 AM
Florios article is very insightful as he exposes the misconception that "guaranteed money" is not always the most significant number in a players contract. Sometimes, as in the case of the deal that Smith got over the weekend with the Texans, that number can even be misleading in that it understates the real financial worth of a deal.

GP
03-02-2009, 10:18 AM
I like how when I gripe about a move we make, I need to shut the heck up and get on-board with it. I'm just a troll.

When others do it, we should be very frightened and watch the move crumble before our very eyes.

We can't suck any more than we did with Weaver at DE. And something had to be done. I'm not sure who else at DE we could have plugged in to replace Weaver. Who else was out there? And in the draft, as well?

As far as DeMeco and Dunta are concerned: This is a draft where we could go LB in round 1, and CB in round 2 (or vice versa) and let them pout and walk away from this team at the end of the year. They still have to play and put up good stats in order to remain respectable for free agency/trade value. So if they are THAT interested in "gettng THEIR money," so to speak, then they need to put up or shut up.

This is nothing more than jealousy talk, in terms of being supposedly angered that a free agent DE got a deal and they didn't. A better DL means an easier time for LBs and DBs, which should mean they can fly around the field and look like Asante Samuel and such...which helps their market value.

I will not discount or detract from the talents of Dunta and DeMeco. They are very good players and they have meant a lot to the team in values that exceed just their physical talents. But this whining and moaning is stupid.

I'm sorry. Not a single down has been played yet, not even a scrimmage, and this is possibly a huge mistake? There's too much residue off the Weaver failure for Antonio Smith to get a fair shake in the eyes of some fans.

I think this is the best offseason YET for the Texans.

Fire away. I know it's a-coming!

Carr Bombed
03-02-2009, 10:30 AM
Just about every team "overpays" this early in free agency. Yes we overpaid a little for the guy, but that's the price you pay for being a early player in FA.

Texan_Bill
03-02-2009, 10:31 AM
He was just on 1560 and said "I will get after the quarterback!! Mark my words"

Vinny
03-02-2009, 10:34 AM
I'm on board with the signing. We already know he can compete at this level and his best year was last season so he is entering his prime. He will produce better than some rookie that will take 3 years to "get there". He may not be spectacular but he could be Otis Thorpe-like....and that would make this a plus signing.

Carr Bombed
03-02-2009, 10:36 AM
He was just on 1560 and said "I will get after the quarterback!! Mark my words"

I'm glad to hear that and all....make no mistake I like to hear those words. I just don't put much stock into those kinda statemants..

Tmac..."something special is going to happen in Houston, I can feel it".

Ahman Green..."Ive get plenty in the tank and I'm going to prove I'm still capable of being a top back".

Tmac..."once I'm back, I'm back...no more going in and out of the lineup...I'll prove the doubters wrong".

Ahman Green..." I'm feeling great and look forward to having a healthy season".

:) Ah..who am I kidding, it's not fair to blame the guy, because of those two guys. (honestly I could've listed about 3 or 4 other Tmac "failure quotes", it's like shooting fish in a barrel)

AnthonyE
03-02-2009, 10:37 AM
Just about every team "overpays" this early in free agency. Yes we overpaid a little for the guy, but that's the price you pay for being a early player in FA.

Yup. And if he turns out to be a big hit he might quickly become "underpaid".

Ya never know...

El Tejano
03-02-2009, 10:40 AM
He was just on 1560 and said "I will get after the quarterback!! Mark my words"

I watched his press conference and there is just this something about this guy that breeds confidence that we have been lacking.

Texan_Bill
03-02-2009, 10:43 AM
I'm glad to hear that and all....make no mistake I like to hear those words. I just don't put much stock into those kinda statemants..

Tmac..."something special is going to happen in Houston, I can feel it".

Ahman Green..."Ive get plenty in the tank and I'm going to prove I'm still capable of being a top back".

Tmac..."once I'm back, I'm back...no more going in and out of the lineup...I'll prove the doubters wrong".

Ahman Green..." I'm feeling great and look forward to having a healthy season".

:) Ah..who am I kidding, it's not fair to blame the guy, because of those two guys. (honestly I could've listed about 3 or 4 other Tmac "failure quotes", it's like shooting fish in a barrel)

I watched his press conference and there is just this something about this guy that breeds confidence that we have been lacking.

That's why we will be 'marking' his words. ;)

MojoMan
03-02-2009, 10:54 AM
Here is an interesting reply I received to a post I made over at the Arizona Cardinals board:

It will be interesting how Antonio will play in the 4-3. Smith is powerful, and a very solid player. His interviews are very entertaining, and be sure to watch him beat the crap out of your goalposts during the pre-game warm up.

El Tejano
03-02-2009, 10:58 AM
Here is an interesting reply I received to a post I made over at the Arizona Cardinals board:

Yes! We need that kind of guy. This is the guy that motivates and pumps up the team. We haven't had enough of these kind of guys.

disaacks3
03-02-2009, 11:11 AM
I watched his press conference and there is just this something about this guy that breeds confidence that we have been lacking.
The thing I remember clearly during the All Access event after signing Weaver...

I asked him if he was "ready to show the Rookie (Mario) how it's done at this level?"

His response was a low-key "we'll see". At the time, I took it with a grain of salt and figured that he was the quiet, confident leader. As time wore on, I never really did see him all that "fired up". That sort of thing can definitely be taken TOO far (see Peek, Antwan), but it's still nice to hear from a guy who was just in a Super Bowl.

badboy
03-02-2009, 11:12 AM
I was very cautious when it was announced he was coming in. It looks optimistic now & we will see what he does. Did seem to get better as he went along & he should be pumped after going to SB last season + he will want to show he is worth his $. I think he will also want to show what he can do in comparison to Mario & that is ok. Eliminates me going with Ayers in 2nd. I need to develop a new game plan but if Rashad Jenning is there in 2nd or a real good LB.. I still think we can get a FS and a power back later day 2.

buddyboy
03-02-2009, 11:19 AM
I was very cautious when it was announced he was coming in. It looks optimistic now & we will see what he does. Did seem to get better as he went along & he should be pumped after going to SB last season + he will want to show he is worth his $. I think he will also want to show what he can do in comparison to Mario & that is ok. Eliminates me going with Ayers in 2nd. I need to develop a new game plan but if Rashad Jenning is there in 2nd or a real good LB.. I still think we can get a FS and a power back later day 2.

I wouldn't have a problem with spending a first day pick on another DLineman. You can never have too many pass rushers, and if Smith doesn't pan out (knock on wood), we will definitely need them.

dalemurphy
03-02-2009, 11:50 AM
To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "I am not so sure you know what that means." :)

Moreover, just because another team overpays, is not a measuring stick to say we did not overpay.

How about Michael Clayton getting over $20 million or Foxworth getting $7 million per year.

At some point, you have to face the reality that the marketplace is simply not where you think or want it to be. You remind me of my grandfather complaining about the price of gasoline- reminiscing about how it used to be only $.05... That argument really doesn't mean anything today when I choose where to fill my tank.

Double Barrel
03-02-2009, 12:38 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with spending a first day pick on another DLineman. You can never have too many pass rushers, and if Smith doesn't pan out (knock on wood), we will definitely need them.

I agree. I'm a big fan of strong, hard-hitting defenses, and it all starts with the line.

Thorn
03-02-2009, 12:42 PM
I agree. I'm a big fan of strong, hard-hitting defenses, and it all starts with the line.

I too agree with this. I've always been a fan of picking up linemen (if they are worth the positional pick) in the 1st round, either offensive or defensive. You can never have to many good linemen.

Kaiser Toro
03-02-2009, 02:05 PM
How about Michael Clayton getting over $20 million or Foxworth getting $7 million per year.

At some point, you have to face the reality that the marketplace is simply not where you think or want it to be. You remind me of my grandfather complaining about the price of gasoline- reminiscing about how it used to be only $.05... That argument really doesn't mean anything today when I choose where to fill my tank.

The Grandfather is another bad analogy on your part, I love to spend, but the marketplace is about timing. The FO felt they needed to spend immediately to secure the players they wanted. That will be the issue for our debates moving forward as we see how this plays out.

Unfortunately my view of a signing and your view of a signing are at odds - right, wrong or indifferent. I am done with the back forth on this one as we will not see eye to eye on this. It is time to let the poppers pop, and the breakers break. :)

Goatcheese
03-02-2009, 03:28 PM
I like Smith as a player, again not at the price we had to pay, but he's just a glorified Bulman, who is alittle better against the run. Nice to have on your team, but for 7/mil a year?

Fox
03-02-2009, 04:05 PM
Seems to me you don't get many starter-type players at a bargain price unless you sign them to a rookie contract, they're old, or they have some warts on their resume. There's always exceptions, and Rick Smith has found us several (Wilson, Andre Davis, Kevin Walter, Bulman, Deljuan Robinson, etc) but eventually these guys who play and play well expect to be paid. I don't mind giving out a good contract to a younger player in the prime of their career who has put up recent starter-quality seasons at a position we're hurting at.

Porky
03-02-2009, 04:39 PM
FWIW, Peter King at SI was big on this signing -

I think the best deal of the weekend was Antonio Smith, the versatile defensive lineman for the Cardinals -- and the best defensive lineman they had, one of their former coaches told me at the Super Bowl -- going to the Texans for $7 million per. "I think it's going to be an electrifying year for our defensive line. We [Mario Williams and Smith] are going to be a great pair. We're going to cause a lot of havoc for offensive linemen,'' Smith said.

link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/03/01/freeagency/3.html)

PS - He hated the Orlovsky deal.

whiskeyrbl
03-02-2009, 04:49 PM
Potentialy the best free agent signing in Texans history.

badboy
03-02-2009, 05:24 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with spending a first day pick on another DLineman. You can never have too many pass rushers, and if Smith doesn't pan out (knock on wood), we will definitely need them.I'd be ok also, but I think he will use the back up guys and use the picks elsewhere unless maybe round 4 or later.

Rex King
03-02-2009, 06:54 PM
On the bright side, playing opposite Mario I think he has the potential to be the reverse of the case of Tamba Hali - he had 8 sacks and 6 FF his rookie year, 7.5 the year after, then had a massive dropoff to 3.5 after Jared Allen left.

On the down side, Hali was making about 5 times less than what Smith will. But that's what happens when you can't draft a position and have to resort to free agency.

AnthonyE
03-02-2009, 08:34 PM
I love the way he talks!
http://www.houstontexans.com/tv/index.asp?mm_file_id=3042&play_clip=Y

Specnatz
03-03-2009, 12:08 PM
http://www.battleredblog.com/2009/3/2/778449/did-the-texans-best-2009-d

On Saturday, the Texans signed DE Antonio Smith to a 5 year, $35 million dollar contract that included $12.5 million guaranteed. The majority of the reactions to the Smith acquisition among Texans fans seem to be generally lukewarm, with minorities on both the positive and negative ends of the spectrum. This being said, if you have the same tendency that I do and immediately analyzed how this affected our draft, you were probably on the positive end of the spectrum.

It’s wasn’t that difficult to identify the Texans’ needs at the end of the 2008 season. The Offense that ranked 3rd in the league, which, while not perfect, did not need nearly as much help as a defense that ranked 22nd. Despite having Mario Williams, our pass rush was abysmal and we needed a bookend defensive end to play opposite of him. Zac Diles and Xavier Adibi played well when on the field and proved to be great late round selections, but both showed some inability to stay healthy and therefore the Texans could have used more depth at linebacker. As noted by Chris at HoustonDiehards, the Texans have never put much stock in drafting safeties, which has translated to less than stellar play historically. In my opinion, these were the three biggest needs at the beginning of the offseason.

Spot about our draft needs.

badboy
03-03-2009, 02:03 PM
http://www.battleredblog.com/2009/3/2/778449/did-the-texans-best-2009-d



Spot about our draft needs.I hope that Raji is there at #15. That would be a vastly improved line. Our CBs should be better as Bennett will have his mentor on field with him some and Reeves will be in 2nd season and should have more confidence. I am hoping Molden stays healthy and rewards the coaches for drafting him. I think a FS like Delmas in 2nd or Rashad Johnson on day2 + maybe Daniel Holtzclaw @ILB will give us an interesting season.