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ChampionTexan
02-21-2009, 04:05 PM
John McClain was on KILT yesterday afternoon (just like every Friday), and one of the things he mentioned was that he'd heard Buffalo may be willing to offer Owen Daniels a contract in the $5 Million/year range even though he's a RFA. I didn't hear if he said anything about guaranteed dollars, but Jason Witten extended for six years in 2006, and got $29 Million with essentially $12 Million guraranteed. Last year, Dallas Clark signed a six year deal last year for $36 Million. I haven't found anything definitive on the guaranteed money, but it appears to be a front-loaded contract. Those are the best comparables I could find, but they seem to indicate a long-term deal averaging $5 Million per is not unrealistic.

If the Texans tender Daniels at max dollars (which is highly likely), and if Buffalo signs him to an offer sheet, the Texans can either match the offer, or take a first and a third from Buffalo, and let Daniels walk.

Assuming the Bills (or any other NFL team) signs O.D. to an offer sheet along the lines described, and assuming no poison pill (ie: the contract is matchable), what would you do?

gtexan02
02-21-2009, 04:07 PM
A young probowl TE is worth more than 1 st round pick in my opinion. OD can block and he can catch. I say pay him. We saw how difficult it was when we had a receiving and a blocking TE. Now that we've got a guy who can do both, why would you let him walk for the potential of getting a good player?

That being said, I don't thikn Buffalo would do that. They have an early pick and can get Pettigrew, and save a ton of money and a 3rd

ChampionTexan
02-21-2009, 04:10 PM
A young probowl TE is worth more than 1 st round pick in my opinion. OD can block and he can catch. I say pay him. We saw how difficult it was when we had a receiving and a blocking TE. Now that we've got a guy who can do both, why would you let him walk for the potential of getting a good player?

That being said, I don't thikn Buffalo would do that. They have an early pick and can get Pettigrew, and save a ton of money and a 3rd

Just to clarify, it's a first and a third, and Buffalo has the 11th pick in the draft (so as opposed to what I said in the OP, let's assume we get Buffalo's picks since there's a big difference between theirs and a team picking in the bottom 10).

J-Russ
02-21-2009, 04:13 PM
Even though Daniels is one of my favorite players, I would definitely take the picks over him. We already have a capable tight end in Dressen, plus this draft is stacked with pretty good tight end prospects. We're getting two first day picks with both being top 15 in each round, it's a no brainer. Doubt Buffalo would do it though.

TheRealJoker
02-21-2009, 04:21 PM
Successful teams are able to trade quality players for extra draft picks and then have someone take their place without missing a beat along with getting more talent from the extra picks. Remember, we got OD for a 4th round pick so if we could get a 1st and 3rd for him that would be outstanding. However, I highly doubt we have anyone on the roster that can pick up where he left off. We're a team on the rise but we aren't that good yet.

You would have to take the picks because the value is just too great but at the same time expect a drop off in the TE position for the short term being more than balanced out by upgrades/added depth in positions of weakness from the added picks.

PS: You could add even more picks from the original 1st and 3rd with a trade down.

Thorn
02-21-2009, 04:21 PM
OD is very good, and I'd miss him, but for a 1st and a 3rd I'd get over it.

Carr Bombed
02-21-2009, 04:25 PM
Sorry, but I'm not taking a 1st and 3rd over a proven player like Daniels......he's a 1st round talent and a huge reason why our offense is as good as it is. (he's our inside man)

1st round draft picks aren't sure fire hits

and 3rd round picks are even a bigger crap shoot.

Give me the proven YOUNG player any day of the week.

gtexan02
02-21-2009, 04:27 PM
Sorry, but I'm not taking a 1st and 3rd over a proven player like Daniels......he's a 1st round talent and a huge reason why our offense is as good as it is. (he's our inside man)

1st round draft picks aren't sure fire hits

and 3rd round picks are even a bigger crap shoot.

Give me the proven young player any day of the week.

I agree 100%. I understand the fascination and excitement over draft picks. A top 10 (close to it) pick has a chance to be superstar in this league. Maybe a probowler.

But we already have a probowler, and he's young and healthy. Why would you give up a surefire player that fits our system for an unknown?

Mailman
02-21-2009, 04:30 PM
I'm with CB. I think we've been spoiled by our recent draft successes. I'm not gambling on those picks when we have a young but proven stud TE who knows the offense well.

gary
02-21-2009, 04:32 PM
I say pay him hands down.

TheRealJoker
02-21-2009, 04:34 PM
I agree 100%. I understand the fascination and excitement over draft picks. A top 10 (close to it) pick has a chance to be superstar in this league. Maybe a probowler.

But we already have a probowler, and he's young and healthy. Why would you give up a surefire player that fits our system for an unknown?

Confidence that your front office can find another player just like him. Buy low/sell high.

He was a 4th round pick, if we get a 1st and 3rd in exchange I have plenty of confidence that this coaching staff can draft players with those picks that will more than make up for the loss of OD.

Dont get me wrong, i'm a HUGE OD fan. But in the era of FA its all about drafting players like OD late and then trading them off for extra draft picks to a less fortunate organization that doesn't draft as well as you. That's the only way you're gonna stay under the salary cap and win consistently.

Lucky
02-21-2009, 04:35 PM
The Texans will place a 1st and 3rd tender on Daniels.

No team will sign Daniels to an offer sheet with that tender.

The End.

gtexan02
02-21-2009, 04:37 PM
The Texans will place a 1st and 3rd tender on Daniels.

No team will sign Daniels to an offer sheet with that tender.

The End.

This is the offseason. If all our threads end in 10 minutes its going to be a long couple of months!!

ChampionTexan
02-21-2009, 04:37 PM
Consider this:

Our first and third round picks since Kubiak's been here:

2006 - Mario Williams/Charles Spencer OR Eric Winston
2007 - Amobi Okoye/Jacoby Jones
2008 - Duane Brown/Antwaun Molden OR Steve Slaton

I realize that this doesn't shed much light on the answer, and that's kind of the point.

ChampionTexan
02-21-2009, 04:39 PM
The Texans will place a 1st and 3rd tender on Daniels.

No team will sign Daniels to an offer sheet with that tender.

The End.

Then suspend disbelief just this one time (sheesh!)

gtexan02
02-21-2009, 04:41 PM
The Texans will place a 1st and 3rd tender on Daniels.

No team will sign Daniels to an offer sheet with that tender.

The End.

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/no_20poop_small.jpg

(We don't have a threadcrapping smilie :))

Texecutioner
02-21-2009, 05:05 PM
Daniels is great, but for a 1st and 3rd, I'm sure just about every GM in the league would trade Daniels for that. I would do that in a second.

Polo
02-21-2009, 05:12 PM
I'd trade Daniels,Dreesen and Bruener for the first and third.

gary
02-21-2009, 05:15 PM
You do not know what you're going to get out of these two draft picks and you already know what you're going to get out of OD period.

mattieuk
02-21-2009, 05:15 PM
Sorry, but I'm not taking a 1st and 3rd over a proven player like Daniels......he's a 1st round talent and a huge reason why our offense is as good as it is. (he's our inside man)

1st round draft picks aren't sure fire hits

and 3rd round picks are even a bigger crap shoot.

Give me the proven YOUNG player any day of the week.

Key point here. OD is the pro-bowler TE, who hasn't quite yet finished developing. A first and a third. Pah. It'd take a first and a second (perhaps two seconds, or another first) to really be tempting to get rid of one of the cornerstones of the offense. Plus, his work ethic and level headed attitude only makes him more of a no-trader.

Carr Bombed
02-21-2009, 05:33 PM
I'd trade Daniels,Dreesen and Bruener for the first and third.

And you'll spend more than a first and third trying to find players that give you the production and depth of the players above.

People keep saying, "but Daniels was a 4th rounder".....who cares, he's obviously outplayed his draft position.

gary
02-21-2009, 05:37 PM
No getting rid of ODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Brandon420tx
02-21-2009, 05:51 PM
You do not know what you're going to get out of these two draft picks and you already know what you're going to get out of OD period.

I like OD alot.... buttt... you can reach for Pettigrew with our 15 with this. We could also possibly get Rey Rey or B.J. Raji with the 11 pick, and an extra 3rd rounder. Of course, thats only if the Bills do it, I don't think they will.

gtexan02
02-21-2009, 05:56 PM
After Pettigrews disappointing performance today, I expect he'll drop quite a bit

Brandon420tx
02-21-2009, 05:57 PM
After Pettigrews disappointing performance today, I expect he'll drop quite a bit

Well, I don't follow the combine that closely, I'm still a bigger performance of game production over drill showoff.

What did Pettigrew do badly?

Mari-OWNED!
02-21-2009, 06:00 PM
Owen Daniels is worth every penny and more of what we are going to pay him.

PapaL
02-21-2009, 06:02 PM
John McClain was on....

John McClain?

No care.

The Pencil Neck
02-21-2009, 06:02 PM
Well, I don't follow the combine that closely, I'm still a bigger performance of game production over drill showoff.

What did Pettigrew do badly?

I didn't think he had that bad a day. He did OK on the broad jump, one of the shuttles, and the bench. He ran a slow 40 time but I don't think he was expected to run fast.

The1ApplePie
02-21-2009, 06:04 PM
He's a TE... Take the picks

OD is good but he isn't Antonio Gates or Jason Witten

gary
02-21-2009, 06:06 PM
He's a TE... Take the picks

OD is good but he isn't Antonio Gates or Jason WittenHe may end up being close to them.

gtexan02
02-21-2009, 06:08 PM
#1) Pettigrew has character issues:
Charged with felony assault and battery of a police officer in February, 2008. Police responded to an altercation at a residence in Stillwater, OK. When asked to leave, Pettigrew refused and elbowed an officer in the chest. Pettigrew has since pleaded guilty to a lesser charge (misdemeanor assault and battery) in return for fines paid and 20 hours of community service. He also pleaded guilty to misdemeanor public intoxication in the incident and was fined $100. He received a deferred sentence and won't have a criminal record if he successfully completes probation. Coach Mike Gundy declined to suspend Pettigrew, saying in February that he would allow the case to run its course.

#2) Pettigrew was unimpressive in the combine today

Pettigrew's performance Saturday at the NFL scouting combine in Lucas Oil Stadium might have given pause to teams with early draft slots.
Pettigrew, the top-rated tight end in the draft, ran his 40-yard dash in a sluggish 4.8 seconds, failing to register among the top 10 tight ends invited to the combine. But we knew speed wasn't his stong suit. He's a blocker first, receiver second.

Pettigrew tied for sixth with a 33-inch vertical jump, was fifth in the broad jump at 9 feet, 10 inches and tied for eighth with 22 repetitions in the 225-pound bench press.

Brandon420tx
02-21-2009, 06:11 PM
So, maybe we don't draft pettigrew, but we use that 15ner on another defensive player, trade back, or an Elite WR if Crabtree falls or Maclin lands in our lap.

Disclaimer: I'm a big fan of OD and Walter and in no way am I suggesting I want them gone from the team.

PapaL
02-21-2009, 06:11 PM
He may end up being close to them.

First three year stats are fairly comparable (with the exception of TDs).

Gates Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/owendaniels/profile?id=DAN576298)
2005 San Diego Chargers 15 15 89 1,101 12.4 38 10
2004 San Diego Chargers 15 15 81 964 11.9 72T 13
2003 San Diego Chargers 15 11 24 389 16.2 48 2

OD Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/owendaniels/profile?id=DAN576298)
2008 Houston Texans 16 16 70 862 12.3 35 2
2007 Houston Texans 16 16 63 768 12.2 29 3
2006 Houston Texans 14 12 34 352 10.4 33T 5

mexican_texan
02-21-2009, 06:11 PM
I was never sold on Pettigrew. I'm sure the Bengals or Bills will take a chance on him, but I'm not impressed.

The1ApplePie
02-21-2009, 06:14 PM
He may end up being close to them.

Due to injury, with this trade the Texans could land both Crabtree and Orakpo, plus a 3rd.

gary
02-21-2009, 06:15 PM
First three year stats are fairly comparable (with the exception of TDs).

Gates Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/owendaniels/profile?id=DAN576298)
2005 San Diego Chargers 15 15 89 1,101 12.4 38 10
2004 San Diego Chargers 15 15 81 964 11.9 72T 13
2003 San Diego Chargers 15 11 24 389 16.2 48 2

OD Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/owendaniels/profile?id=DAN576298)
2008 Houston Texans 16 16 70 862 12.3 35 2
2007 Houston Texans 16 16 63 768 12.2 29 3
2006 Houston Texans 14 12 34 352 10.4 33T 5See what I mean.

Malloy
02-21-2009, 07:09 PM
Personal point of view. OD is one of our most talented players, letting him go would be a HUGE mistake. Right now, if I were to choose, I would choose OD over Dunta, that is, I would rather overpay OD than Dunta.

Even taking into account that our offense was a pass-happy one, OD did VERY well. If someone 'deserves' the franchise tag, its OD.

Again, personal view, and I'm drunk as hell. Cheers! :=)

WesmanTexanfan
02-21-2009, 07:12 PM
John McClain was on KILT yesterday afternoon (just like every Friday), and one of the things he mentioned was that he'd heard Buffalo may be willing to offer Owen Daniels a contract in the $5 Million/year range even though he's a RFA. I didn't hear if he said anything about guaranteed dollars, but Jason Witten extended for six years in 2006, and got $29 Million with essentially $12 Million guraranteed. Last year, Dallas Clark signed a six year deal last year for $36 Million. I haven't found anything definitive on the guaranteed money, but it appears to be a front-loaded contract. Those are the best comparables I could find, but they seem to indicate a long-term deal averaging $5 Million per is not unrealistic.

If the Texans tender Daniels at max dollars (which is highly likely), and if Buffalo signs him to an offer sheet, the Texans can either match the offer, or take a first and a third from Buffalo, and let Daniels walk.

Assuming the Bills (or any other NFL team) signs O.D. to an offer sheet along the lines described, and assuming no poison pill (ie: the contract is matchable), what would you do?

well, what kind of money is the best TE in the league getting, he is worth that.....

bah007
02-21-2009, 07:18 PM
Daniels is a key cog in our offense. If we let him walk then who replaces him?

I think it's crazy to even entertain the notion that we should let him go.

One of the most devastating weapons an offense can have is a TE that demands coverage from a DB down the seam.
There are very very few LB's in the league that can cover OD downfield, which frees up coverage for AJ because a safety has to be designated to OD on passing plays.

dalemurphy
02-21-2009, 07:55 PM
Isn't it tampering to release information regarding interest and money about another team's free agent before the FA period begins?

Old School
02-21-2009, 08:00 PM
Is it just me or does anyone else feel weird that OTHER teams actually want OUR players for a change? :specnatz:

It's a new feeling but I kinda like it!:)

Bubbajwp
02-21-2009, 08:02 PM
Our offense immediatly goes from one of the best in the league to mediocre if you trade OD.

With haynesworth probably leaving the Titans and the colts losing there head coach and possibly Marvin Harrison this is the first season the Texans have a good shot at winning the division. If you trade OD for picks your giving up on next season. Horrible idea.

ATXtexanfan
02-21-2009, 08:23 PM
letting OD leave would piss me off more than dunta leaving, love the guy and he's been on my fantasy teams every year

J-Russ
02-21-2009, 08:29 PM
Our offense immediatly goes from one of the best in the league to mediocre if you trade OD.


Yea, I'm sure that'll happen. I mean our players on offense are just average, beside OD of course. AJ, Slaton, Schaub, Walter.. average. Kubiak, just an average offensive coach. They're nothing without Daniels. pleaaase.

J-Russ
02-21-2009, 08:31 PM
Isn't it tampering to release information regarding interest and money about another team's free agent before the FA period begins?

It's just a rumor that's been picked up during the combines... It's not an official statement from the Bills.

bah007
02-21-2009, 08:40 PM
Yea, I'm sure that'll happen. I mean our players on offense are just average, beside OD of course. AJ, Slaton, Schaub, Walter.. average. Kubiak, just an average offensive coach. They're nothing without Daniels. pleaaase.

A receiving threat at TE makes everyone on offense look better.

He may have been overselling OD's value, but you shouldn't underestimate it as well.

beerlover
02-21-2009, 08:40 PM
Daniels (98th overall selection in 06) for a 1st & 3rd is ridiculous return on initial investment. Rick could do some serious damage with all those picks, I could imagine a very deep & talented haul come draft day for the Texans :texflag:

Old School
02-21-2009, 08:43 PM
Yea, I'm sure that'll happen. I mean our players on offense are just average, beside OD of course. AJ, Slaton, Schaub, Walter.. average. Kubiak, just an average offensive coach. They're nothing without Daniels. pleaaase.
A good tight end in the middle can make a big difference. A Pro Bowl tight end in the middle can make a huge difference. Safeties and linebackers are going to have to keep tabs on him. All it takes it for them to be distracted for a second and AJ or AD can fly by.

Grid
02-21-2009, 08:59 PM
This would be a really tough decision.. the whole "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" thing comes to mind.

However.. you have to consider how many birds we have in our hands. Receiving is this team's biggest strength... if we sacrificed one of our offensive threats for two good picks in this draft.. we could potentially become a stronger team overall..without severely weakening ourselves in the long run.

My first instinct says to keep O.D.... but after thinking about it..it would be a tough call to make. If there is any place on this team where we could afford to lose a good player..its in the receiving corp.

J-Russ
02-21-2009, 09:12 PM
A receiving threat at TE makes everyone on offense look better.

He may have been overselling OD's value, but you shouldn't underestimate it as well.

I know that a playmaker at TE would definitely help an offense, and I'm not undervaluing OD. I honestly wouldn't give him up for almost anything; unless its for that 1st and 3rd, both being near top ten picks in their respected rounds. I would even hesitate on just that 11th overall pick.

Losing him certainly would not make us mediocre though. Joel Dressen is a very capable receiving TE. Although hes no OD, he could probably fill the void as a pretty decent starting TE. Also, did I mention this was a deep TE class? We could get someone like Chase Coffman or James Casey in the 3rd.

Lucky
02-21-2009, 09:26 PM
If I do a search, how many of the "Daniels for a 1st and 3rd" posters will also come up as "Peppers for only a 1st" posters?

Therefore Daniels is > than Peppers.

Let's see, the Texans get a 1st and 3rd for Daniels, a 1st for Dunta, trade a 1st for Peppers, get a 2nd for Rosencopter, all of the draft choices hit and...

The Texans are going to the Super Bowl!!!

I blame John McClain for this. :voodoo:

gtexan02
02-21-2009, 09:38 PM
If I do a search, how many of the "Daniels for a 1st and 3rd" posters will also come up as "Peppers for only a 1st" posters?

Therefore Daniels is > than Peppers.

Let's see, the Texans get a 1st and 3rd for Daniels, a 1st for Dunta, trade a 1st for Peppers, get a 2nd for Rosencopter, all of the draft choices hit and...

The Texans are going to the Super Bowl!!!

I blame John McClain for this. :voodoo:

Im not saying I think the Bills with make an offer to a maximum tendered RFA and give us a 1st and a 3rd, but to compare the Peppers talk to the Daniels talk doesn't mean anything.

Peppers is over 30 years old, comes with an enormous contract, and will only be traded because he absolutely does not want to stay with his current team.

If we were to trade Daniels, it would take a huge offer because both parties want him to remain in Houston.

You frequently see people get traded for lower value when the team with original rights knows they have a limited window to make the deal. The Panthers know Peppers doesn't want to be there and won't play for them, so they have no choice but to trade him. It hurts his value.

As for the Bills, put yourself in their position. Lets say you intend to draft a TE with your 1st round pick. The top TE on the board is Pettigrew. Would you rather have Owen Daniels or Pettigrew. One of them is a proven pro bowl player, the other is a rookie with a lot of potential. Do I think the Bills will offer us a 1st for Daniels? Probably not. Do I think its such an outrageous suggestion that it warrants 2 separate posts about how worthless the discussion is? No

ArlingtonTexan
02-21-2009, 09:42 PM
Remember when doing this evaluation that the texans would be matching a 5 million a year contract and turning down 1st and 3rd. So you have 5 million a year and two extra draft stops to find acceptable TE play, while giving yourself more ammunition to improve the rest of your team.

False Start
02-21-2009, 09:47 PM
I love OD. He is important to this team, and getting rid of him would be a bad idea IMO.

Bubbajwp
02-21-2009, 10:01 PM
Yea, I'm sure that'll happen. I mean our players on offense are just average, beside OD of course. AJ, Slaton, Schaub, Walter.. average. Kubiak, just an average offensive coach. They're nothing without Daniels. pleaaase.

We have three serious weapons. AJ, OD, and Slaton if you take one away our offense becomes mediocre.

Either way if you agree with me or not trading OD for draft picks is giving up on our first serious chance to win the division.

Kaiser Toro
02-21-2009, 10:02 PM
Pay 5m+ for a TE in a west coast offense that is currently allergic to touchdowns or get a 1st and 3rd? There is no question which way I would go. Give me the picks.

mexican_texan
02-21-2009, 11:14 PM
I don't think it's touchdowns he has a problem with, it's fumbling. He has pretty sure hands until the ball is already tucked away.

Ryan
02-21-2009, 11:16 PM
I love OD and very much appreciate his value to our team, but I think the 1st and 3rd could do a whole lot of good for our team in other areas. We won't get a TE like OD for a while, but we can try either in the draft or just let Dreesen try it out if we do this deal.

TexanSam
02-21-2009, 11:18 PM
Unless a team offers a contract with an incredibly ridiculous poison pill clause in there, the Texans have to match. Pro Bowl TE's like him don't come that often. You can't just plug any tight end into our offense and expect him to produce.

Kimmy
02-21-2009, 11:30 PM
John McClain was on KILT yesterday afternoon (just like every Friday), and one of the things he mentioned was that he'd heard Buffalo may be willing to offer Owen Daniels a contract in the $5 Million/year range even though he's a RFA.

I think the key word here is restricted. Texans will be able to match any offers, and we should see some amazing stats from him during his last contract year.

I'm just glad he is hanging on to the ball more and has a quarterback that can throw to him! The Texans are making some smart choices lately, unless something horrible happens, I can't see them parting ways with OD just yet.

OD is awesome, and it doesn't hurt to be the first Texan to score a touchdown during the pro bowl!

mexican_texan
02-21-2009, 11:32 PM
Owen is a great TE, but I'd be happy to take the draft picks and start Dreesen at TE, maybe pick up a guy like Mark Hafner as an UDFA.

Brandon420tx
02-21-2009, 11:59 PM
I don't think it's touchdowns he has a problem with, it's fumbling. He has pretty sure hands until the ball is already tucked away.

I think he gets a bad rap on the fumble issue, half of the time it was questionable and only remained a fumble because there was not enough evidence to overturn it yada yada yada.

TimeKiller
02-22-2009, 01:54 AM
I'd take 3 first rounds for him...or maybe more...

kiwitexansfan
02-22-2009, 02:31 AM
Pay the man.

He is a vital piece in the Kubiak offense and one of the reasons the team is a top 5 offense.

Drafts pick are all well and good, but as the saying goes the bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

threetoedpete
02-22-2009, 03:41 AM
Pay the man.

He is a vital piece in the Kubiak offense and one of the reasons the team is a top 5 offense.

Drafts pick are all well and good, but as the saying goes the bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Pay the man. Make him the highest paided TE in the league.

Kaiser Toro
02-22-2009, 09:00 AM
Pay the man. Make him the highest paided TE in the league.

That is pretty cavalier and certainly would put the front office in a jam for other signings down the road. Daniels scored 2 TD's last year, both of them in one game, against the 0-16 Lions.

I will not lie and say I have seen him block in the RZ, but I do know that we have trouble scoring in the RZ whether it be by pass or run and I want a TE that scores TDs and helps seal a side. OD does some things very well, but the one thing he has not done, which in my opinion defines the position is being a threat in the RZ. We are 8-8 the last two years and do not have the luxury to over pay for a player that does not help us on our biggest offensive weakness.

If someone wants him for 5m and gives us draft picks this offseason, take it.

Lucky
02-22-2009, 09:46 AM
Peppers is over 30 years old, comes with an enormous contract, and will only be traded because he absolutely does not want to stay with his current team.

You frequently see people get traded for lower value when the team with original rights knows they have a limited window to make the deal. The Panthers know Peppers doesn't want to be there and won't play for them, so they have no choice but to trade him. It hurts his value.
Allow me to go on a mini-tangent regarding Julius Peppers. First, I read numerous posts stating that there was no chance of Carolina tagging Peppers. Then, Carolina tags Peppers. Now, I'm reading that the Panthers have "no choice" but to trade Peppers. Excuse me if I remain skeptical over the limitations put on the Carolina franchise by fans and the media.

Let me add this on Peppers. It doesn't matter if Julius prefers to play as a OLB in a 3-4 defense. Why? Because there isn't a team that runs a 3-4 defense that will pay Peppers the mega $million to play out of position. He and his agent must be on the same hallucinogen if they believe the Dolphins or the Cowboys will cough up a contract with the same $large as the Panthers.

As for the Bills, put yourself in their position. Lets say you intend to draft a TE with your 1st round pick...
Whoa. As the Bills, why would I limit my options to the TE position? Are we a TE from the Super Bowl? I'm looking at my roster, and I think a stud d-lineman or linebacker would have more impact than a tight end. This TE class is deep. I can pickup a pass catching TE in the 2nd, maybe the 3rd. At a much lower cap figure than Owen Daniels would go for. That would make my owner pretty happy, too.
Do I think its such an outrageous suggestion that it warrants 2 separate posts about how worthless the discussion is?
3rd time's the charm.

Ole Miss Texan
02-22-2009, 09:46 AM
We're not a complete team yet. Daniels means more to this team than a lot of people realize. It's tempting because I love getting some draft picks, but I wouldn't trade him.

Kaiser Toro
02-22-2009, 09:53 AM
We're not a complete team yet. Daniels means more to this team than a lot of people realize. It's tempting because I love getting some draft picks, but I wouldn't trade him.

It has nothing to do with actively shopping Daniels, he is a RFA.

threetoedpete
02-22-2009, 10:03 AM
That is pretty cavalier and certainly would put the front office in a jam for other signings down the road. Daniels scored 2 TD's last year, both of them in one game, against the 0-16 Lions.

I will not lie and say I have seen him block in the RZ, but I do know that we have trouble scoring in the RZ whether it be by pass or run and I want a TE that scores TDs and helps seal a side. OD does some things very well, but the one thing he has not done, which in my opinion defines the position is being a threat in the RZ. We are 8-8 the last two years and do not have the luxury to over pay for a player that does not help us on our biggest offensive weakness.

If someone wants him for 5m and gives us draft picks this offseason, take it.

No one is tighter than I am with Mr. McNair's Money. Go look in the Dunta Robinson thread. Here you got a guy who represents 30% of our offensive pass yardage production...a pretty fair blocking tight end. He not quite to the middle of his career. He's basically Matt Schaub's safety net when two of the WR's go down....pay the man.

Kaiser Toro
02-22-2009, 10:08 AM
No one is tighter than I am with Mr. McNair's Money. Go look in the Dunta Robinson thread. Here you got a guy who represents 30% of our offensive pass yardage production...a pretty fair blocking tight end. He not quite to the middle of his career. He's basically Matt Schaub's safety net when two of the WR's go down....pay the man.

I like Daniels, but in this case our FO is in a position of power as they can leverage the RFA position. Let the market dictate his price. I seriously doubt that anyone will set the bar by making him the highest paid TE.

Ole Miss Texan
02-22-2009, 10:16 AM
It has nothing to do with actively shopping Daniels, he is a RFA.

I understand but I'm equating it to a trade. You pay the guy what he deserves and keep him (something you'll have to do the following year anyways at maybe more) or you don't and you get picks. What do I do? I keep him and lock him in long term.

You get the production from him right now. Dreessen, maybe a high draft pick TE.. doubt we would get the same production. If Daniels continues to be as great as he is, you might be able to trade him in the future if you want picks.

Kaiser Toro
02-22-2009, 10:21 AM
I understand but I'm equating it to a trade. You pay the guy what he deserves and keep him (something you'll have to do the following year anyways at maybe more) or you don't and you get picks. What do I do? I keep him and lock him in long term.

What does he deserve, what he has earned and what his value is are all up for debate. I am all for locking him up to a long term deal, but at the right price, which in this instance the market will set for us and we can match. Making him the highest paid TE is flat out silly. I have watched enough football to know that OD is not the best TE in the game and he should not be paid like it - that is the difference between earned and deserved.

b0ng
02-22-2009, 10:26 AM
I think most of you guys hae some ridiculous fetish for draft picks.

You don't trade your good players for draft picks, you try to trade your scrubs for draft picks.

What.

The.

Shit.

ArlingtonTexan
02-22-2009, 10:28 AM
I am ok with the idea to sign and keep Daniels long-term. However, it you place the highest RFA price on Owen and somebody offers him a huge contract and a 1st and 3rd, in terms of NFL value there is little debate. Daniels good, but not an elite talent. He is replaceable.

The answer for those who who disagree. List all the players over the last five, heck maybe even 10 years who have traded for 1st and 3rd.

rush2112mn
02-22-2009, 10:38 AM
Hey...lets see what we can get for Mario....for Slaton for Andre Johnson...shoot....lets just get draft picks for all our proven players and start over.....LMFAO.....

Kaiser Toro
02-22-2009, 10:40 AM
I think most of you guys hae some ridiculous fetish for draft picks.

You don't trade your good players for draft picks, you try to trade your scrubs for draft picks.

What.

The.

Shit.

I do not understand the fetish for draft picks either, but I also do not understand the want to make OD the highest paid TE in the game.

Kaiser Toro
02-22-2009, 10:43 AM
Hey...lets see what we can get for Mario....for Slaton for Andre Johnson...shoot....lets just get draft picks for all our proven players and start over.....LMFAO.....

Hey, lets pay all of our FA's as the top players at their respective position and see how far that gets us. LMFAO! LOL! WTF?!?! OMG! Quack! Quack!

ArlingtonTexan
02-22-2009, 10:45 AM
Hey, lets pay all of our FA's as the top players at their respective position and see how far that gets us. LMFAO! LOL! WTF?!?! OMG! Quack! Quack!

signed Jerry Jones

b0ng
02-22-2009, 10:56 AM
I do not understand the fetish for draft picks either, but I also do not understand the want to make OD the highest paid TE in the game.

If we had to sign Daniels to a contract where he had to get paid more than 7 mil a year then yeah, but some people just want to give him up if the other team just offer the picks no matter what ins of contract is offered.

Kaiser Toro
02-22-2009, 11:08 AM
If we had to sign Daniels to a contract where he had to get paid more than 7 mil a year then yeah, but some people just want to give him up if the other team just offer the picks no matter what ins of contract is offered.

I have not seen that train of thought echoed in this thread.

Brandon420tx
02-22-2009, 11:08 AM
I am ok with the idea to sign and keep Daniels long-term. However, it you place the highest RFA price on Owen and somebody offers him a huge contract and a 1st and 3rd, in terms of NFL value there is little debate. Daniels good, but not an elite talent. He is replaceable.

The answer for those who disagree. List all the players over the last five, heck maybe even 10 years who have traded for 1st and 3rd.

This is my reasoning. For those of you willing to break the bank for him. His value isn't over 5 million, and its definately not over 5 million and 2 early draft picks.

Daniels is a great talent, not elite, but he reads zones well and understands our offense. Still, I highly doubt anyone gives a first and third and pays the huge contract for a TE. So it's really a moot point.

infantrycak
02-22-2009, 11:13 AM
I don't think it's touchdowns he has a problem with, it's fumbling. He has pretty sure hands until the ball is already tucked away.

He lost 1 ball this year.

If we had to sign Daniels to a contract where he had to get paid more than 7 mil a year then yeah, but some people just want to give him up if the other team just offer the picks no matter what ins of contract is offered.

Right there in the original post was the scenario--$5 mil per year. The franchise tag for TE's was $4.52 in 2008. I love OD and am not a draftnik, but I'd take a 1st and 3rd for him rather than make him potentially the highest paid TE in the league.

ArlingtonTexan
02-22-2009, 11:20 AM
If we had to sign Daniels to a contract where he had to get paid more than 7 mil a year then yeah, but some people just want to give him up if the other team just offer the picks no matter what ins of contract is offered.

I think no way in heck a situation like this occurs, but

1) if a team would offer a 1st and 3rd for Daniels, do you really think they are not going have a high end contract along with it?

2) In terms of trade value, Daniels (and maybe not any TE in the league) is not worth a 1st and 3rd, so I agree the contract does not matter to me. I base this on the type of players who are traded for with first round picks. IMO, the only players on the Texan worth more than the 1st and 3rd are Mario amnd AJ with the good, healthy Schaub the only other possibility because of the scarcity of QBs.

Being an NFL GM requires a cold, hard understanding of value. That means like when value dictates trading player that you like a lot. This scenerio would force me to trade Owen Daniels. It is just business.

infantrycak
02-22-2009, 11:23 AM
2) In terms of trade value, Daniels (and maybe not any TE in the league) is not worth a 1st and 3rd, so I agree the contract does not matter to me. I base this on the type of players who are traded for with first round picks. IMO, the only players on the Texan worth more than the 1st and 3rd are Mario amnd AJ with the good, healthy Schaub the only other possibility because of the scarcity of QBs.

Being an NFL GM requires a cold, hard understanding of value. That means like when value dictates trading player that you like a lot. This scenerio would force me to trade Owen Daniels. It is just business.

I think you could find a suitor for AJ at a 1st and 3rd. Otherwise agreed.

BigBull17
02-22-2009, 11:25 AM
signed Jerry Jones

They don't have a Cap, so it works for them. Except they don't win...

dtran04
02-22-2009, 11:31 AM
You would only do this if you had a viable replacement already in the wings. There's no point if you're gonna use those picks to draft another TE.

TheRealJoker
02-22-2009, 11:32 AM
I think you could find a suitor for AJ at a 1st and 3rd. Otherwise agreed.

Of course someone would be trading a 1st and 3rd for AJ. He's saying AJ and Mario are the only 2 players that he would NOT trade if offered a 1st and 3rd.

infantrycak
02-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Of course someone would be trading a 1st and 3rd for AJ. He's saying AJ and Mario are the only 2 players that he would NOT trade if offered a 1st and 3rd.

I just whiffed and didn't notice him mention AJ at all.

TexansLucky13
02-22-2009, 12:51 PM
I love OD, but I would take the picks. Far too good of a deal to pass up on.

Mailman
02-22-2009, 12:52 PM
Daniels (98th overall selection in 06) for a 1st & 3rd is ridiculous return on initial investment. Rick could do some serious damage with all those picks, I could imagine a very deep & talented haul come draft day for the Texans :texflag:

If ROI is the objective, then the Patriots are stupid not to trade Tom Brady. Brady was a compensatory pick in the sixth round (199th overall) of the 2000 draft--imagine what Belichick could do with the draft picks Brady would command in return.

Mailman
02-22-2009, 12:59 PM
Peppers is over 30 years old, comes with an enormous contract, and will only be traded because he absolutely does not want to stay with his current team.


My apologies for the OT post, but Julius Peppers is not 30. He just turned 29 last month. I don't know why so many continue to get this wrong when it's right there on his player page at NFL.com.

rickyb
02-22-2009, 01:09 PM
If ROI is the objective, then the Patriots are stupid not to trade Tom Brady. Brady was a compensatory pick in the sixth round (199th overall) of the 2000 draft--imagine what Belichick could do with the draft picks Brady would command in return.

Ah, but it was the use of ROI which dragged me finally into this thread. ROI is not the objective, but it is OPPORTUNITY COST which is the key consideration. For the Pats to surrender Brady for picks might be likened to lunacy, on that we agree.

But bringing this back to Daniels, we would gain a 1st and 3rd at a time when we already have an outstanding TE in Dreesen on the squad. Moreover, our draft list would like:
two (2) first rounders, a 2nd, two 3rds.

All that said, this is all just mental masturbation. There is zero probability that any team signs Daniels to an offer sheet with a 1st and 3rd tender. But, should some GM be stoned at the time, I would take the picks. The opportunity cost is too high not to.

One man's opinion. Yours may differ. That's cool.

Later,
Rick

steelbtexan
02-22-2009, 01:41 PM
This is the same argument as should we have traded Sage for a 3rd.

Buy low/ Sell high

We could get Raji or Orapko @ 11 & pick up a TE like Ingram or Miller in the 3-4th rd.

Goldensilence
02-22-2009, 01:50 PM
Until OD becomes a real Red Zone threat, much as i really like the guy, he's replaceable.

Don't think Buffalo would tender him unless they felt they could use him better in the RZ. I'd take the picks and walk.

Quick question: Matt Schaub was tendered high and we signed him for 2 second rounders. Would you do that trade on both sides of the equation?

TEXANRED
02-22-2009, 01:50 PM
I can't figure OD out. Is it him, or is it the offense? Sure he catches a lot of passes and get decent yardage but then he finishes the season with 2 TD's.

IMO he is not an important part of the offense.

The1ApplePie
02-22-2009, 01:59 PM
This is the same argument as should we have traded Sage for a 3rd.

Buy low/ Sell high

We could get Raji or Orapko @ 11 & pick up a TE like Ingram or Miller in the 3-4th rd.

We could get both an offensive playmaker like Maclin and a defensive powerhouse like Orakpo with those picks. A can't miss situation.

The1ApplePie
02-22-2009, 02:01 PM
I can't figure OD out. Is it him, or is it the offense? Sure he catches a lot of passes and get decent yardage but then he finishes the season with 2 TD's.

IMO he is not an important part of the offense.

AJ and Steve Slaton are the main reason OD gets so many touches. They draw so much attention that OD is usually lightly covered in the flats. Its not like he is Antonio Gates without a WR to open the field for him

Mailman
02-22-2009, 02:05 PM
I think some of us are spoiled by OD's play and don't realize how important he is to this offense.

2008 TE TARGETS


Gonzalez 154
Witten 121
Cooley 111
Clark 107
Daniels 100
Gates 92
Zach Miller 86
Scaife 84
Olsen 82
Winslow 82

2008 TE REC
Gonzalez 96
Cooley 83
Witten 81
Clark 77
Daniels 70
Gates 60
Scaife 58
Miller 56
Carlson 55
Olsen 54


2008 TE REC YDS

Gonzalez 1058
Witten 952
Daniels 862
Cooley 849
Clark 848
Miller 778
Gates 704
Scheffler 645
Carlson 627
Shiancoe 596


2008 TE REC FOR 1ST DOWN

Gonzalez 67
Witten 50
Daniels 47
Cooley 45
Clark 41
Gates 40
Carlson 36
Miller 32
Keller 32
Olsen 32


2008 TE REC YDS ON 3RD + 4TH DOWN

Gonzalez 328
Witten 322
Daniels 235
Gates 214
Cooley 211
Scaife 209
B. Miller 176
Olsen 163
Clark 160
Heap 157


Daniels is #1 in yards after catch among all AFC TEs with 430 and second in the NFL behind Chris Cooley's 475.

OD was second on the team in first down receptions with 47 behind you-know-who with 81. He had eight more catches for a first down than Walter and five more targets, but six fewer TDs. Walter caught all those TDs in part because of OD's threat in the red zone. Walter got twenty three red zone targets in 2008 and five TDs compared to OD's ten targets and two TDs.

threetoedpete
02-22-2009, 02:34 PM
I think no way in heck a situation like this occurs, but

1) if a team would offer a 1st and 3rd for Daniels, do you really think they are not going have a high end contract along with it?

2) In terms of trade value, Daniels (and maybe not any TE in the league) is not worth a 1st and 3rd, so I agree the contract does not matter to me. I base this on the type of players who are traded for with first round picks. IMO, the only players on the Texan worth more than the 1st and 3rd are Mario amnd AJ with the good, healthy Schaub the only other possibility because of the scarcity of QBs.

Being an NFL GM requires a cold, hard understanding of value. That means like when value dictates trading player that you like a lot. This scenerio would force me to trade Owen Daniels. It is just business.

I don't know about that one....we spent a lot of days in here on these boards for three years worrying about Jopru. I don't know if that frustration was worth two picks to you. But it is to me. Got a top guy at the position, young, smart, clean off the field...wouldn't you want the guy as your son in law ?

...pay the man.

WolverineFan
02-22-2009, 02:48 PM
I can't figure OD out. Is it him, or is it the offense? Sure he catches a lot of passes and get decent yardage but then he finishes the season with 2 TD's.

IMO he is not an important part of the offense.

TD's are not the only barometer for success as an offensive player. AJ has only had 3 seasons with more than 5 TD catches in his career and as a WR he gets alot more opportunities for TD's than Daniels does. I would say he is a very important part of the offense.

As it was stated earlier, Daniels is not the best redzone target for a TE. But that's not where his value is at. His value is making all those 1st down catches on 3rd downs and extending drives, leading to TD catches for other players.

He is a vital part to this offense and if we let him go then who would replace him? I think you would find that our offense would not be ranked #3 in the league if he isn't out there.

Mailman
02-22-2009, 02:52 PM
AJ and Steve Slaton are the main reason OD gets so many touches. They draw so much attention that OD is usually lightly covered in the flats. Its not like he is Antonio Gates without a WR to open the field for him

It's inarguable that AJ and Slaton make it easier to get Daniels the ball, but you're not giving Owen the credit he deserves. He is an athletic TE with very good speed and good route-running ability. If his outstanding production is simply a function of the dual threat AJ and Slaton represent, we should expect his numbers this year to be markedly different than two seasons ago when Slaton was still a BMOC and AJ was nursing his knee. In fact, OD only caught seven more passes and a hundred more yards last year than he did in 2007. When AJ was out from week 3 to week 11, Daniels was second on the team in receptions (33) behind Walter (41), third in receiving yards (396), and was still able to maintain his 12+yds/rec average. Even without AJ and Slaton, OD was a primary target.

threetoedpete
02-22-2009, 02:53 PM
Owen is a great TE, but I'd be happy to take the draft picks and start Dreesen at TE, maybe pick up a guy like Mark Hafner as an UDFA.

I don't under stand this. Look MS is a good QB. What is going to make him a great QB is having the tools he needs to not get killed. So you're posting you're Going with Joel and a nobody. Joel Dreisen is a second level tight end who is stiff in the hips.....and is no way going to replace ODs production. What's protecting Joel from the unemployment line is that he's worked himself into a pretty fair special teams guy and threw two blocks that resulted in two touch downs last year on special teams. The picks aren't worth the chaos you're going to have on the team. I don't care who you draft with them.

Lucky
02-22-2009, 03:03 PM
2008 TE TARGETS
Daniels 100
2008 TE REC YDS
Daniels 862
8.6 yards per attempt is not too shabby. 8.6 yards per attempt for a TE is outstanding. Which is why the Texans will give Daniels the highest RFA tender, and retain his services.

TexansLucky13
02-22-2009, 03:10 PM
8.6 yards per attempt is not too shabby. 8.6 yards per attempt for a TE is outstanding. Which is why the Texans will give Daniels the highest RFA tender, and retain his services.

As far as I am concerned, this is a win/win situation. We will either give OD a well-deserved raise and keep him around, or we will get a set of nice draft picks. I love the guy and hope he stays, but knowing how well Rick Smith can spend those picks... I am content either way.

gtexan02
02-22-2009, 03:31 PM
Allow me to go on a mini-tangent regarding Julius Peppers. First, I read numerous posts stating that there was no chance of Carolina tagging Peppers. Then, Carolina tags Peppers. Now, I'm reading that the Panthers have "no choice" but to trade Peppers. Excuse me if I remain skeptical over the limitations put on the Carolina franchise by fans and the media.

You're absolutely right. The Panthers can choose to keep Peppers if they want. But it makes absolutely zero sense. If Peppers had intended to stay in Carolina, he would have signed the contract that would have made him the highest paid defensive player in the NFL. They offered him a larger deal than Allen. By turning that contract down, Peppers is effectively saying "Its not about the money." He wants to play somewhere else. He is willing to reject a huge amount of money from Carolina. Maybe they'll choose to keep him anyway, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him sit out and demand a trade.


Let me add this on Peppers. It doesn't matter if Julius prefers to play as a OLB in a 3-4 defense. Why? Because there isn't a team that runs a 3-4 defense that will pay Peppers the mega $million to play out of position. He and his agent must be on the same hallucinogen if they believe the Dolphins or the Cowboys will cough up a contract with the same $large as the Panthers.


I guess I'll use your line here and say "Excuse me if I remain skeptical over the limitations put on [3-4 teams] by fans and the media." There are a lot of teams that run the 3-4. Saying "There isn't a team that runs a 3-4 that will pay Peppers to play out of position" is pure speculation. Peppers never said he would only play for a 3-4 team anyway. He mentioned 4 teams, 2 of which were in the NFC South. Unless the NFC South is changing, Im pretty sure there aren't 2 teams that play the 3-4.


Whoa. As the Bills, why would I limit my options to the TE position? Are we a TE from the Super Bowl? I'm looking at my roster, and I think a stud d-lineman or linebacker would have more impact than a tight end. This TE class is deep. I can pickup a pass catching TE in the 2nd, maybe the 3rd. At a much lower cap figure than Owen Daniels would go for. That would make my owner pretty happy, too.

Now you're just being argumentative. It was a hypothetical, as the rest of the thread is. I said if the bills intend to use their 1st round pick on a TE. A lot of draft information has pointed out a potential link between Pettigrew and the Bills. Obviously its not inked in or anything. Its speculation. But IF the Bills were to look at a guy like Pettigrew in the 1st, then why wouldn't it make more sense to trade a 1st for a proven player like Owen Daniels? You can look at the numbers if you want. There are plenty of articles and data indicating how likely a team is to draft a pro bowl player with each pick. The chance of getting a player who makes the pro bowl even once in their career in the top 10 is ~50%. Why wouldn't you take a guy who you know plays at a pro bowl level? It doesn't make sense.

3rd time's the charm.

Apparently not. Its the offseason. we have to discuss something

keyser
02-22-2009, 03:32 PM
Just out of curiosity, if we were to get draft picks, would they be for 2009 or 2010? Will we know for sure whether we're keeping Owen Daniels at draft time?

gtexan02
02-22-2009, 03:34 PM
Just out of curiosity, if we were to get draft picks, would they be for 2009 or 2010? Will we know for sure whether we're keeping Owen Daniels at draft time?

If everything was straight along with the rulebooks, they'd be 2009. But, like with the Schaub deal, teams usually negotiate something else. So it could be like the Schaub trade where we swap picks this year and get a pick next year or any permutation like that

bah007
02-22-2009, 03:35 PM
If you let Daniels walk for a 1st & 3rd then you have to replace him in the 2nd round.

Our options there are likely Jared Cook, Shawn Nelson, & Chase Coffman. Expect Cook to be the second TE taken and off the board by our selection.

Nelson can replace Daniels' production in the passing game, but can he block? Coffman can be a threat as a receiver, but not the same threat that Daniels is.

The only other TE I see with the same skill set as Daniels is James Casey, who is only one year younger than Owen.

Lucky
02-22-2009, 03:38 PM
By turning that contract down, Peppers is effectively saying "Its not about the money."
It's always about the $money. Especially when they say, "It's not about the money." Example: Peppers' production in his "contract year" this season, as opposed to his performance in 2007.

gg no re
02-22-2009, 03:40 PM
I don't know about that one....we spent a lot of days in here on these boards for three years worrying about Jopru. I don't know if that frustration was worth two picks to you. But it is to me. Got a top guy at the position, young, smart, clean off the field...wouldn't you want the guy as your son in law ?

...pay the man.

This.

gtexan02
02-22-2009, 03:43 PM
It's always about the $money. Especially when they say, "It's not about the money." Example: Peppers' production in his "contract year" this season, as opposed to his performance in 2007.

If its only about the money, why would he turn down the largest contract ever offered to a DE? Why would he limit the teams he is willing to sign with to 4? It sure seems like theres more to it than money for him.

As for Peppers in 2007, I think there was more to it than laziness in a non-contract year. Most NFL players know that you can start talking new deals with your current employer with 1 year left on your contract. If he had recorded a 15 sack season last year, he would have gotten a huge payday from Carolina a year earlier. If it was just about the money, he would have played for it last year.

I think injuries + the QB mess + loss of DL players all contributed to Peppers down season

Mailman
02-22-2009, 03:46 PM
He lost 1 ball this year.

And it couldn't have come at a worse time for some of us who owned him in our fantasy leagues. Daniels was about one step away from a TD in that week 14 game at Green Bay when the ball got punched out from behind and recovered by the Packers.:gun:

Lucky
02-22-2009, 03:50 PM
If its only about the money, why would he turn down the largest contract ever offered to a DE?
Because he thinks he can get more???

Putting credence into what comes out of the mouths of players, agents, coaches, and GMs this time of year is pointless. The Panthers are trying to get to the Super Bowl. They aren't trading Peppers. And Peppers will play for the franchise $$$ and look to the uncapped year in 2010. If he doesn't get the long term deal he wants from Carolina.

Mailman
02-22-2009, 03:57 PM
Because he thinks he can get more???

Putting credence into what comes out of the mouths of players, agents, coaches, and GMs this time of year is pointless. The Panthers are trying to get to the Super Bowl. They aren't trading Peppers. And Peppers will play for the franchise $$$ and look to the uncapped year in 2010. If he doesn't get the long term deal he wants from Carolina.

If it's about the money for Peppers, then you have to consider the same financial implications for the Panthers. If you're the GM would you really want to keep a malcontent around for a 17 million dollar hit on your salary cap? I don't see anything other than a trade. Yeah, they could hardball him in a big way, but it won't help them win. Make the trade, save cap space, and get picks in return.

Lucky
02-22-2009, 04:12 PM
Make the trade, save cap space, and get picks in return.
What trade? Do you really think they're teams lining up to give Peppers $40-50 million in guaranteed money? Peppers is worth more to Carolina than he would be to any other team. Those picks won't help John Fox and Marty Hurney keep their jobs. They have to win now.

Mailman
02-22-2009, 04:21 PM
What trade? Do you really think they're teams lining up to give Peppers $40-50 million in guaranteed money? Peppers is worth more to Carolina than he would be to any other team. Those picks won't help John Fox and Marty Hurney keep their jobs. They have to win now.

I don't know what the market figure is but I'm absolutely certain there's significant interest in Peppers.

You may argue that the picks won't help the Panthers win (which is very debatable) but the cap space probably will.

ArlingtonTexan
02-22-2009, 04:22 PM
I don't know about that one....we spent a lot of days in here on these boards for three years worrying about Jopru. I don't know if that frustration was worth two picks to you. But it is to me. Got a top guy at the position, young, smart, clean off the field...wouldn't you want the guy as your son in law ?

...pay the man.

In reality OD is going to be paid, under the situation described by the thread originator he would not by the Texans.

You are evaluating based on the fact that you like him as a person, and not in terms of overall league worth. A GM needs to heartless when making that type of evaluation. Not easy, but what has to be done.

Until you understand how few players are traded for 1st round picks much less first round plus a third plus a large contract, then you are going to keep coming up with stuff like his value to the Texans. Do you really think a meh player like LJ Smith can't catch 55-60 balls and a couple TDs with the Texans? Not a full replacement, but with the extra money and picks you should be able to upgrade other parts of your squad at expense of less from the TE position. Overall value, not just one position. OD, good player, but replacable.

disaacks3
02-22-2009, 04:49 PM
OD is an upper-echelon player and NOT easily replaceable. Hey, I'd love to give Smith a couple of extra picks to play with too, but you don't take away one of your QB's favorite go-to guys unless you're just looking for trouble.

O.D. isn't the best TE in the league, but he and Schaub ARE on the same page io the way they read the seams in the Defense. THAT is the "hard part" to replace.

Highest RFA tender and pay the man!

Insideop
02-22-2009, 05:03 PM
And it couldn't have come at a worse time for some of us who owned him in our fantasy leagues. Daniels was about one step away from a TD in that week 14 game at Green Bay when the ball got punched out from behind and recovered by the Packers.:gun:

You too! That cost me some money. It was our 1st round playoff and I lost by one point. The guy I lost to won the championship the next week and a about $1000. I got nothing! :foottap: OD owes me!!!!!

PHAROAH
02-22-2009, 07:43 PM
Owen Daniels is a very good player who is still growing but if buffalo did offer him a huge contract I'd say take the 1st & 3rd round pick and draft the top TE in the draft. I don't think that will happen and it really doesn't make much since but with all of the other top players contracts coming in the near future like Steve Slaton, Mario Williams & Demeco Ryans you would have to consider it.

TEXANRED
02-22-2009, 07:50 PM
TD's are not the only barometer for success as an offensive player. AJ has only had 3 seasons with more than 5 TD catches in his career and as a WR he gets alot more opportunities for TD's than Daniels does. I would say he is a very important part of the offense.

As it was stated earlier, Daniels is not the best redzone target for a TE. But that's not where his value is at. His value is making all those 1st down catches on 3rd downs and extending drives, leading to TD catches for other players.

He is a vital part to this offense and if we let him go then who would replace him? I think you would find that our offense would not be ranked #3 in the league if he isn't out there.

You win games by scoring the most points, not who has the most first downs.

We may have finished as a top 5 offense but we finished at the bottom of the league in points scored.

I am not saying its all OD fault but there were 21 other TE's that scored more TD's.

He is not a top 5 or even top 10 TE.

gtexan02
02-22-2009, 08:00 PM
You win games by scoring the most points, not who has the most first downs.

We may have finished as a top 5 offense but we finished at the bottom of the league in points scored.

I am not saying its all OD fault but there were 21 other TE's that scored more TD's.

He is not a top 5 or even top 10 TE.

Do you consider Andre Johnson to be a poor WR because he only scored 8 times this season? There were about 10 players with more receiving TDs than him.

I dont see how anyone would say Owen Daniels is not a top 10 TE

mattieuk
02-22-2009, 08:02 PM
You win games by scoring the most points, not who has the most first downs.

We may have finished as a top 5 offense but we finished at the bottom of the league in points scored.

I am not saying its all OD fault but there were 21 other TE's that scored more TD's.

He is not a top 5 or even top 10 TE.

But OD is a large reason we're a top 5 offense at all...

Our whole offense was a poor redzone producer, but that doesn't mean that we have to start cutting and changing it. I think the general consensus here is that more time, better play calling, and a few small changes to personnel (i.e. another RB) will open up our red zone play, develop more of a rushing threat in goal line situations, and thus free up more space for throwing short TD's to OD that you crave so much...

The third ranked in yardage tight end in the NFL last season. The fifth highest in receptions.

Not every TE has the TDs that Gates and Gonzalez have, fine, so what? To say that he's not a top 10 TE, well thats just plain silly.

Old School
02-22-2009, 08:05 PM
You win games by scoring the most points, not who has the most first downs.

We may have finished as a top 5 offense but we finished at the bottom of the league in points scored.

I am not saying its all OD fault but there were 21 other TE's that scored more TD's.

He is not a top 5 or even top 10 TE.

All this fantasy stuff is fun but when someone pulls a whopper of a statement out like this one it's time for someone to have a reality check. After seeing the stats mentioned in this thread, how can you even suggest he is not a top 10 TE? I say boo to you sir!!:pirate:

infantrycak
02-22-2009, 08:12 PM
You win games by scoring the most points, not who has the most first downs.

We may have finished as a top 5 offense but we finished at the bottom of the league in points scored.

I am not saying its all OD fault but there were 21 other TE's that scored more TD's.

He is not a top 5 or even top 10 TE.

Really? Name 10 TE's who are better.

Something you don't seem to understand is suck QB's rely on their TE's and bump up their scoring (cough**VY**cough). Look at the top 10 on scoring and spot the bad QB play--KC, MIA (not bad, but not a long range guy), Min, Chi.

PS--last time I checked, if you don't make first downs the eleven guys on O head to the sideline and never have a chance to score points.

In any event, AT has it nailed. Odds are at any one time there are either 0 or 1 TE's in the league that teams wouldn't trade for a 1st and 3rd. That doesn't mean the TE's suck, just recognizes that is a huge price tag.

The Pencil Neck
02-22-2009, 09:34 PM
We may have finished as a top 5 offense but we finished at the bottom of the league in points scored.


We were 17th in points scored. We weren't at the bottom.


I am not saying its all OD fault but there were 21 other TE's that scored more TD's.

He is not a top 5 or even top 10 TE.

Huh? How can you say he's not a top 5 TE when he's in the top 5 in the main statistical categories.

How do you rank Chris Cooley? He only had one TD but that doesn't mean that the guy isn't a monster TE (although he's more of an h-back, I think).

Mailman
02-22-2009, 09:37 PM
Hell, I don't even think there are five TEs who are better than Owen. As a matter of fact, the statheads at Football Outsiders rank OD as the #4 TE in DYAR. Only Gonzalez, Shiancoe, and Witten are ranked higher by Schatz's boys.

Mari-OWNED!
02-22-2009, 09:42 PM
I hope Owen Daniels doesn't read this message board!

Seriously... I'd be pretty damned disappointed in what most of you guys are saying!

I want Owen Daniels on my team, and it would take A LOT for me to think otherwise.

threetoedpete
02-22-2009, 11:22 PM
OK. How about this: We get aproched this weekend and offered a one this year and a second next year for Steve Slaton. I've seen the boards....Draft Chris Wells. Draft Brown Draft Shonne Green....under your scenarios....it's only business do the deal ?

I don't think it's going to be as easy to replace OD as some of you are making it out to be. And I think his value to this ball club and this quarterback is priceless. The picks aren't worth it.

ArlingtonTexan
02-22-2009, 11:54 PM
OK. How about this: We get aproched this weekend and offered a one this year and a second next year for Steve Slaton. I've seen the boards....Draft Chris Wells. Draft Brown Draft Shonne Green....under your scenarios....it's only business do the deal ?

I don't think it's going to be as easy to replace OD as some of you are making it out to be. And I think his value to this ball club and this quarterback is priceless. The picks aren't worth it.

I would take a 1st and 2nd next year for Steve Slaton everyday and twice on Sunday. In relative terms RB maybe the easiest position in the league to replace. You can add other guys like Demeco Ryans and Eric Winston on that list. Because the texans did not have an Owen Daniels, does not mean that TE is a difficult position to replace or at least get acceptable play from in the larger function of the league. Again over focus on one player/position at the cost of not improving the whole.

The only people in the NFL who get offers for 1st and 3rds for are the true elite, and on every once in a while a decent QB. Threetoe, I know you follow the draft and free agency closely and have done so year after year. Call up that experience and remind yourself of how few trades are made in the NFL where a player has been traded for a 1st round pick, much less more.

None of us hate Daniels, but we are not so blinded by our fandom, that we ignore the big picture of the league and value.

threetoedpete
02-23-2009, 12:28 AM
I'm not blinded by fandom either...our big difference is I know what the value of hitting guys in the fourth and third round is. They're precious. If you trade them you're trading a 100% thing for a 50% proposition. I'll take the bird in the hand every day and twice on Sunday. If it were easy David Carr would be our four time probowl Qb and Jopru would be our stud at TE...and Jabar Gaffney would be our number 2 WR and Jason Babins, Not Harrison, would of led the league in sacks last year. . Our fortunes with the draft have turned around the last couple of drafts....that doesn't mean it's always going to be that way. How soon they forget ? If we're hitting starters in the seventh round that's more of luck than provedence. Unless you're saying you are certain that Percy Harvan can make the transition to Rb....there are no Steve Slaton's nor Chriss Johnson's in this class of RBs. and as someone has all ready pointed out....no ODs either. Only prosects with the chance to catch OD in a couple of years.

ArlingtonTexan
02-23-2009, 12:47 AM
I'm not blinded by fandom either...our big difference is I know what the value of hitting guys in the fourth and third round is. They're precious. If you trade them you're trading a 100% thing for a 50% proposition. I'll take the bird in the hand every day and twice on Sunday. If it were easy David Carr would be our four time probowl Qb and Jopru would be our stud at TE...and Jabar Gaffney would be our number 2 WR aand Jason Babins, Not Harrison, would of led the league in sacks last year. . Our fortunes with the draft have turned around the last couple of drafts....that doesn't mean it's always going to be that way. How soon they forget ?

I will just say the good news for both us that given the big picture of the NFL, no one (98% sure) will be offering 1st and 3rd for OD with an expensive contract that was outlined in this thread, so this was just an exercise in what if.

i would be in total shock if the Texans don't give him the largest RFA tag (1st and 3rd) and/or sign him to a long term contract. That way we both can enjoy watching him for a few years versus bickering over something that's a longshot to happen anyway.

steelbtexan
02-23-2009, 12:50 AM
TTP

I agree with you, but after I talked to Schaub & saw how he felt about the deal, if he said he could do witout OD I would do the deal.

WolverineFan
02-23-2009, 02:28 AM
You win games by scoring the most points, not who has the most first downs.

We may have finished as a top 5 offense but we finished at the bottom of the league in points scored.

I am not saying its all OD fault but there were 21 other TE's that scored more TD's.

He is not a top 5 or even top 10 TE.

When we got into the redzone we didn't score TD's, we kicked FG's. And while Owen isn't the best redzone target, without him we wouldn't have even been in the redzone to start with.

Once again TD's are not the only barometer of success for an offensive player. He helps get us down the field so that we can put it into the endzone. He doesn't have to score the TD himself to be an asset to the team.

gtexan02
02-23-2009, 08:27 AM
This has been a pretty interesting thread, and just further proves why I think NFL teams overvalue draft picks.

This graph is for DEs only, but I still found it interesting:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ksxjg7CFQxA/SA4hDIIi9hI/AAAAAAAACwY/HdvflhULOLs/s1600/table%2B1.PNG
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2008/04/drafting-defensive-ends.html
As you can see, the likelihood of selecting a probowl caliber player, even in round 1, is only 50%. The chance of getting a guy who makes multiple pro bowls is less than 1 in 5. Why teams readily give up pro bowl players, whom they know fit their system, for rookies is beyond me

Polo
02-23-2009, 09:40 AM
This has been a pretty interesting thread, and just further proves why I think NFL teams overvalue draft picks.

This graph is for DEs only, but I still found it interesting:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ksxjg7CFQxA/SA4hDIIi9hI/AAAAAAAACwY/HdvflhULOLs/s1600/table%2B1.PNG
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2008/04/drafting-defensive-ends.html
As you can see, the likelihood of selecting a probowl caliber player, even in round 1, is only 50%. The chance of getting a guy who makes multiple pro bowls is less than 1 in 5. Why teams readily give up pro bowl players, whom they know fit their system, for rookies is beyond me

Who said you need a bunch of pro-bowlers to win big games?

Look at the cowboys from recent years past.

gtexan02
02-23-2009, 09:41 AM
Who said you need a bunch of pro-bowlers to win big games?

Look at the cowboys from recent years past.

Try not to take things at face value. The point of this is to extrapolate. Good teams usually have more pro bowlers. Pro bowls is just an indication of success. For DEs, they also have sacks by draft order, and it shows a similar correlation

buddyboy
02-23-2009, 09:58 AM
You win games by scoring the most points, not who has the most first downs.

We may have finished as a top 5 offense but we finished at the bottom of the league in points scored.

I am not saying its all OD fault but there were 21 other TE's that scored more TD's.

He is not a top 5 or even top 10 TE.

Lots of people have already commented on this, but there's so much truth to what they've been saying, I have to say it also.

You can't score if you don't get first downs. It's not all about TDs. He made the probowl, so he's probably top ten, if not top five.

HoustonFrog
02-23-2009, 10:05 AM
I'll make it simple. Take the picks. Despite my thinking that Daniels can be a Top 5 TE, he still isn't used as often as one would think and for the amount of touches he gets, the picks are much more valuable. Heck, most TEs would need to be let go for the picks.

Polo
02-23-2009, 10:06 AM
Owen Daniels is a system TE.

He is not a guy that is going to excel in every offense.

My point about "pro-bowl" is that sometimes it's just a title. Many guys have had pro-bowl next to their names. Will Demps wasn't far from having it next to his name last year.

Is Owen Daniels now all of a sudden much more valueable than D-rob or Steve Slaton because he has a pro-bowl on his resume? Is he more important to us than Schaub or Kevin Walter?
You have to consider the postion he plays.

Owen Daniels had a better year than a lot of really talented TE's...For some reason I don't think that all has to do with his talent...

Go look at the stats for TE's last year and look at the players attached to some of those stats and try to argue that many of those TE's wouldn't be doing just as good or better than OD in our offense....

Don't get me wrong, I like Owen Daniels and I think he's a really good TE....But he's not elite...He's not a guy that does a lot after the catch...He's not snagging balls in traffic...And he's not a huge threat in the redzone because of his size...

gtexan02
02-23-2009, 10:22 AM
Don't get me wrong, I like Owen Daniels and I think he's a really good TE....But he's not elite...He's not a guy that does a lot after the catch...He's not snagging balls in traffic...And he's not a huge threat in the redzone because of his size...

I dont know why so many people have such a negative impression of OD

"He's not a guy that does a lot after the catch"
Daniels is #1 in yards after catch among all AFC TEs with 430 and second in the NFL behind Chris Cooley's 475.

With regards to his snagging balls, I really wonder where your thought is coming from. After watching him this year, I really think he snags balls out of the air better than many receivers. He can take a hit and hold on to the ball better than most of the guys on the team.

As for the height issue, Daniels is listed as 6'3". The top 5 TEs for scoring touchdowns average 6'4". I really dont think that 1" of difference is the key factor here.

Maybe Daniels is a system TE, but he works well in our system, and thats all that really matters as a Texan fan

Polo
02-23-2009, 10:25 AM
I don't know who you were watching, but from earlier in the thread:

"He's not a guy that does a lot after the catch"


With regards to his snagging balls, I really wonder where your thought is coming from. After watching him this year, I really think he snags balls out of the air better than many receivers. He can take a hit and hold on to the ball better than most of the guys on the team.

As for the height issue, Daniels is listed as 6'3". The top 5 TEs for scoring touchdowns average 6'4". I really dont think that 1" of difference is the key factor here.

Maybe Daniels is a system TE, but he works well in our system, and thats all that really matters as a Texan fan

Size is not only height related.
Catching a ball in traffic is not the same as holding onto the ball after taking a hit...I'm talking about catching the ball when you have one or two DB's blanketing you...Snagging the ball...Owen isn't that kind of TE...Even if he does it once or twice (and I don't recall any), he's not the TE that going to do that consistently...

As I stated...Daniels had a better year than a lot of TE's, but if you look at the list you'd be hard pressed to argue that many of those TE's wouldn't be doing just as good or better in our system.

Heap, Winslow, Gates are just a few that immediately come to mind. Even a guy like Greg Olsen would probably have as good a year if not better in our system.

Mailman
02-23-2009, 10:27 AM
Todd Heap??? LOLOL

AnthonyE
02-23-2009, 10:34 AM
Todd Heap??? LOLOL

rofl! Best reaction ever.

Mailman
02-23-2009, 10:37 AM
Re-post for Polo.

2008 TE TARGETS


Gonzalez 154
Witten 121
Cooley 111
Clark 107
Daniels 100
Gates 92
Zach Miller 86
Scaife 84
Olsen 82
Winslow 82

2008 TE REC
Gonzalez 96
Cooley 83
Witten 81
Clark 77
Daniels 70
Gates 60
Scaife 58
Miller 56
Carlson 55
Olsen 54


2008 TE REC YDS

Gonzalez 1058
Witten 952
Daniels 862
Cooley 849
Clark 848
Miller 778
Gates 704
Scheffler 645
Carlson 627
Shiancoe 596


2008 TE REC FOR 1ST DOWN

Gonzalez 67
Witten 50
Daniels 47
Cooley 45
Clark 41
Gates 40
Carlson 36
Miller 32
Keller 32
Olsen 32


2008 TE REC YDS ON 3RD + 4TH DOWN

Gonzalez 328
Witten 322
Daniels 235
Gates 214
Cooley 211
Scaife 209
B. Miller 176
Olsen 163
Clark 160
Heap 157


Daniels is #1 in yards after catch among all AFC TEs with 430 and second in the NFL behind Chris Cooley's 475.

OD was second on the team in first down receptions with 47 behind you-know-who with 81. He had eight more catches for a first down than Walter and five more targets, but six fewer TDs. Walter caught all those TDs in part because of OD's threat in the red zone. Walter got twenty three red zone targets in 2008 and five TDs compared to OD's ten targets and two TDs.

Specnatz
02-23-2009, 10:43 AM
The numbers for Gonzales and Clark are skewed because those teams have nothing for WR and the Texans have AJ and Walter.

Polo
02-23-2009, 10:46 AM
The numbers for Gonzales and Clark are skewed because those teams have nothing for WR and the Yexans have AJ and Walter.

What ?

Polo
02-23-2009, 10:47 AM
OD was second on the team in first down receptions with 47 behind you-know-who with 81. He had eight more catches for a first down than Walter and five more targets, but six fewer TDs. Walter caught all those TDs in part because of OD's threat in the red zone. Walter got twenty three red zone targets in 2008 and five TDs compared to OD's ten targets and two TDs.


Daniels had a better year than a lot of TE's, but if you look at the list you'd be hard pressed to argue that many of those TE's wouldn't be doing just as good or better in our system.


Wash, rinse and repeat...

Mailman
02-23-2009, 10:56 AM
That's a ridiculous statement to make. One could make the same argument about Jason Witten or Dallas Clark. You're not giving Owen Daniels the credit he deserves. His production in this offense is just as dependent upon his athleticism and football acumen as it is the x-and-o schemes constructed by Gary Kubiak and Kyle Shanahan.

Of course guys like Gates and Winslow would flourish in this system. No duh. Nobody is arguing that OD is the best TE in football. We're saying that he is in the top-five.

Todd Heap isn't even close.

buddyboy
02-23-2009, 11:08 AM
Ok, so those TEs could be doing just as well as OD in our offense. Does that mean that makes OD expendable? Are we going out and getting these TEs? Um...no. So why does saying there are other TEs who can do well in our offense make OD any less valuable.

On another note, I don't know why everyone is on Dreesen's jock. Is he really that great? From what I've seen, he caught a couple TDs and he's a servicable backup who can also long snap. People have been saying that we should let OD go and not lose a step. Am I missing something?!

Texan_Bill
02-23-2009, 11:10 AM
If it's all about being a 'system tight end', why didn't Jeb Putzier flourish? He came from this system. Just askin'.

b0ng
02-23-2009, 11:11 AM
The assertion that Todd Heap would thrive in the Texans offense is laughable (especially since he only plays about 8 games a year) and tells me all I need to know about your opinion on this subject.

Also, wtf is a system TE and what does a player have to do to bwcome valuable to this team? I guess nobody remembers how OD stepped up his play when AJ went down 2 seasons ago.

Polo
02-23-2009, 11:14 AM
Fine...Don't look at the top TE's...

You can go a little further down the list and look at guys like Greg Olsen, Bo Scaife,Kevin Boss, Heath Miller, Zach Miller, Shockey, Dustin Keller....ect, ect....

Owen Daniels wouldn't be hard to replace. Especially for this offense.

Polo
02-23-2009, 11:17 AM
If it's all about being a 'system tight end', why didn't Jeb Putzier flourish? He came from this system. Just askin'.


Because Jeb Putzier hasn't exceled in any system.

Polo
02-23-2009, 11:23 AM
Also, wtf is a system TE and what does a player have to do to bwcome valuable to this team?

Tamme and Clark from the Colts are system TE's.

And sometimes a player cannot be more valuable than their position will dictate.

TE's are not hard to replace.

HoustonFrog
02-23-2009, 11:31 AM
So what some of you are saying is that a TE is more valuable than a 1st and a 3rd?OK.

Polo
02-23-2009, 11:35 AM
I dont know why so many people have such a negative impression of OD

"He's not a guy that does a lot after the catch"


When I say he doesn't do a lot after the catch I'm talking about his ability to make people miss or break tackles...I don't consider him a threat with the ball in his hands...There aren't many TE's that have the ability to make people miss and break tackles, but Owen Daniels not being one of them doesn't really help this argument. AKA, he's not elite.

Ole Miss Texan
02-23-2009, 11:47 AM
The way I see it is you have a known commodity that is integral to your offenses success. If you get rid of Daniels, you now have a need at TE which means you HAVE to find a replacement before the season. I'm not confident our offense will find as much success with Driessen as our starter and not to mention our depth behind him is nothing.

So you go looking for a TE in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th hoping you get lucky to find another player that is able to fit in like Daniels. I have just as much faith in Rick Smith and Kubiak in finding talent as most of yall but I don't know if that's a risk i'm willing to take. On top of that, this new TE drafted has to be game ready by season's start and be able to play for 16 straight games.

I think some of you are thinking that finding a complete TE like Daniels isn't hard to do. Well it is. Daniels is a great receiver and an extremely underrated run blocker. Having 1 player that can do that beats have 2 different players that specialize in each.

Do I think Buffalo or any other team would give up a 1st and 3rd AND sign him to a huge contract? No I don't.

HOU-TEX
02-23-2009, 11:49 AM
Do I think Buffalo or any other team would give up a 1st and 3rd AND sign him to a huge contract? No I don't.

QFT!

:includeme:

Polo
02-23-2009, 11:53 AM
The way I see it is you have a known commodity that is integral to your offenses success. If you get rid of Daniels, you now have a need at TE which means you HAVE to find a replacement before the season. I'm not confident our offense will find as much success with Driessen as our starter and not to mention our depth behind him is nothing.

So you go looking for a TE in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th hoping you get lucky to find another player that is able to fit in like Daniels. I have just as much faith in Rick Smith and Kubiak in finding talent as most of yall but I don't know if that's a risk i'm willing to take. On top of that, this new TE drafted has to be game ready by season's start and be able to play for 16 straight games.

I think some of you are thinking that finding a complete TE like Daniels isn't hard to do. Well it is. Daniels is a great receiver and an extremely underrated run blocker. Having 1 player that can do that beats have 2 different players that specialize in each.

Do I think Buffalo or any other team would give up a 1st and 3rd AND sign him to a huge contract? No I don't.

Lots of Giant fans probably were using the same arguments for Shockey.

buddyboy
02-23-2009, 12:01 PM
Lots of Giant fans probably were using the same arguments for Shockey.

I might be wrong, but didn't they play Boss a lot, especially in the playoffs before they let Shockey go? They knew what they had in Boss and believed that Shockey was expendable. They had a replacement lined up, do we? Is Dreessen really a player you think can carry the load?

Old School
02-23-2009, 12:02 PM
When I say he doesn't do a lot after the catch I'm talking about his ability to make people miss or break tackles...I don't consider him a threat with the ball in his hands...There aren't many TE's that have the ability to make people miss and break tackles, but Owen Daniels not being one of them doesn't really help this argument. AKA, he's not elite.
I can give a crap less if he cant "shake and bake", juke or even do the chicken dance after he catches the ball. All I care about it yards. If he is #2 in YAK thats good enough for me!

Ole Miss Texan
02-23-2009, 12:59 PM
Lots of Giant fans probably were using the same arguments for Shockey.

Well ya know Polo... you got a good point. LOL. One difference I see though is Shockey really wore out his welcome on that team and in that locker room. From that standpoint I think they could be thinking it really could be addition by subtraction. Daniels on the other hand is exactly what this team wants. A Blue collar hardworking guy that will play with a broken nose. He's a great teammate and a fan favorite.

Kevin Boss was a young TE they drafted in the 5th round. I have no idea what their thoughts were on him regarding if he was starter ready or not. I also don't know our FO's thoughts on Dreesen.

Bubbajwp
02-23-2009, 05:31 PM
I believe the Giants won a superbowl with Shockey sitting on the sidelines injured. It wasnt until after that they decided he was expendable. Right?

Bubbajwp
02-23-2009, 05:40 PM
When I say he doesn't do a lot after the catch I'm talking about his ability to make people miss or break tackles...I don't consider him a threat with the ball in his hands...There aren't many TE's that have the ability to make people miss and break tackles, but Owen Daniels not being one of them doesn't really help this argument. AKA, he's not elite.

Do you consider Jason Witten to be elite?

spurstexanstros
02-24-2009, 10:34 AM
Say it aint so...... I told the wife to get an OD jersey for my Bday. Now i got to tell her to hold off.

Polo
02-24-2009, 10:38 AM
Well ya know Polo... you got a good point. LOL. One difference I see though is Shockey really wore out his welcome on that team and in that locker room. From that standpoint I think they could be thinking it really could be addition by subtraction. Daniels on the other hand is exactly what this team wants. A Blue collar hardworking guy that will play with a broken nose. He's a great teammate and a fan favorite.

Kevin Boss was a young TE they drafted in the 5th round. I have no idea what their thoughts were on him regarding if he was starter ready or not. I also don't know our FO's thoughts on Dreesen.

My point was that most of the time there will be someone else that can get the job done when it comes to TE's.

Polo
02-24-2009, 10:39 AM
Do you consider Jason Witten to be elite?

Yes. Jason Whitten has more talent than Owen Daniels.

Blake
02-24-2009, 10:43 AM
Say it aint so...... I told the wife to get an OD jersey for my Bday. Now i got to tell her to hold off.

Word to the wise. Never get a jersey of a player in a contract year. Wait for the big pay day.

SheTexan
02-24-2009, 11:03 AM
Word to the wise. Never get a jersey of a player in a contract year. Wait for the big pay day.

Word to the wise. NEVER get a jersey with a player number PERIOD, unless it has some special meaning outside the Texans. For instance. My grandson has #12, not because of JJ, but because he has had #12 for every baseball and football team he has ever played on. I perfer jerseys or tees that don't have a number on it. My button down jersey has lasted me 6 years, and still going strong.

Bubbajwp
02-24-2009, 12:50 PM
Yes. Jason Whitten has more talent than Owen Daniels.

Well I know alot of Cowboy's fans in fact I live in a house filled with them and all of them say that Witten is not a threat after the catch. So by your definition of the word Witten is also not elite. I never knew a TE had to be dangerous after the catch to be considered elite.

TEXANRED
02-24-2009, 03:57 PM
IMO the TE is not an important part of our offense.

Does OD make first down catches? Yes.

The real question is, if you replace OD with Dressen does our offense get worse, better, or stay the same.

I would have to say that at this point watching OD I just don't see a WOW factor. I think Dressen could step in and do the same job. So if a team came at me with a 1 and 3, I would take it.

Polo
02-24-2009, 04:04 PM
IMO the TE is not an important part of our offense.

Does OD make first down catches? Yes.

The real question is, if you replace OD with Dressen does our offense get worse, better, or stay the same.

I would have to say that at this point watching OD I just don't see a WOW factor. I think Dressen could step in and do the same job. So if a team came at me with a 1 and 3, I would take it.

yep.

Goatcheese
02-24-2009, 05:29 PM
Dreesen doesn't give you this: http://replay-re-cutter.nfl.com/clip.aspx?key=8E3BB103032926A6

You can't cover him with a linebacker, or most safeties.

Is his worth more than a 1, and a 3? Probably not, but downplaying him as if he's just 'ok' is pretty goofy.

Ole Miss Texan
02-24-2009, 05:35 PM
The last thing I want to do is take away anything from Slaton. But if you look at almost all of his big runs, either Daniels or Winston are there making key blocks.

The thing about the TE, FB and OL positions is that you don't often see what makes plays. Take away a consistant downfield blocker and your offense isn't quite as potent.

gtexan02
02-24-2009, 07:26 PM
Dreesen doesn't give you this: http://replay-re-cutter.nfl.com/clip.aspx?key=8E3BB103032926A6

You can't cover him with a linebacker, or most safeties.

Is his worth more than a 1, and a 3? Probably not, but downplaying him as if he's just 'ok' is pretty goofy.

I never realized how much separation he gets from defenders. Whether hes being covered by linebackers or DBs, his routes are jsut perfect

b0ng
02-24-2009, 08:10 PM
I never realized how much separation he gets from defenders. Whether hes being covered by linebackers or DBs, his routes are jsut perfect

And he catches the ball. And he can run.

Yeah, after watching some of Daniels highlights I have no idea why people think he'd be easy to replace. You could probably get a guy that can do one thing that Daniels does, or another, but I think it'd be pretty tough to just up and make a draft pick and bam, pro bowl TE.

Trading away a mediocre or just above average for draft picks is one thing, but trading away guys who are on the cusp of elite for draft picks seems silly.

spurstexanstros
02-24-2009, 08:39 PM
Dreesen doesn't give you this: http://replay-re-cutter.nfl.com/clip.aspx?key=8E3BB103032926A6

You can't cover him with a linebacker, or most safeties.

Is his worth more than a 1, and a 3? Probably not, but downplaying him as if he's just 'ok' is pretty goofy.

Hell Yeah......"Open" Daniels is getting better at opening up holes as well as running in the secondary with no one on him.

infantrycak
02-24-2009, 08:54 PM
Amazing thread.

OD is a top 10 no doubt TE, top 5 arguably.

At the same time, just like AT said--almost no team would trade for any of the top 5, much less top 10 TE's if it involved a 1st and 3rd.

Folks there is an in between. Great TE, but the market for TE's just isn't that high. A Honda Civic may be an elite all around commuter car, but you wouldn't pay $50k for it.

Texan_in_KS
02-26-2009, 11:58 AM
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/02/26/daniels-gets-highest-possible-tender/

powerfuldragon
02-26-2009, 12:02 PM
damn straight. he's one of the best tight ends in the league.

Errant Hothy
02-26-2009, 12:02 PM
Excellent. Either we keep him or we get a 1st and a 3rd in exchange.

Looks like a classic win - win situation to me.

b0ng
02-26-2009, 12:03 PM
Good. Would rather him get extended for a few more years but I am glad he'll be here.

Goldensilence
02-26-2009, 12:04 PM
Not much of a surpise and a good move. Let's get em locked up now.

Specnatz
02-26-2009, 12:06 PM
Before anyone gets upset that it is a one year offer, it is just so that if another team offers a multi-year deal, the Texans can either match or get compensation. Now Smith and ODs agent have time to sit down and work on a long term contract.

TEXANS84
02-26-2009, 12:08 PM
Well, would have settled for a contract along with a few other players on the roster...but the one year tender will do for now. It was almost a guarantee that he was going to get slapped with this anyways.

The Pencil Neck
02-26-2009, 12:09 PM
Golf clap.

Good move.

HOU-TEX
02-26-2009, 12:09 PM
Man, I was just perusing through Rotoworld reading all the RFA tenders and got to thinking about OD. I switch back over here and he's been tendered. What a coinkadink.

Wise move on our part. Now let's concentrate on a couple few decent FA's.

:texflag:

beerlover
02-26-2009, 12:17 PM
wow! does anyone else sense there is more to come? this offseason is different than any I can remember, lots of shedding/trimming/manuevring/negoiations....something wicked this way comes :whip:

b0ng
02-26-2009, 12:24 PM
wow! does anyone else sense there is more to come? this offseason is different than any I can remember, lots of shedding/trimming/manuevring/negoiations....something wicked this way comes :whip:

I would be floored if we sign a top tier anything in FA.

dalemurphy
02-26-2009, 12:40 PM
We still need to tender: Butler, DAnderson, Cochran, Dressens and I've not heard anything about them yet.

TimeKiller
02-26-2009, 01:07 PM
One at a time dale, and OD first for sure.

I'd hate to see him go but for a 1st and a 3rd, I might get over it a little quicker.

Mailman
02-26-2009, 01:24 PM
Fortunately we won't have to worry about it because I doubt any teams would give a 1st and a 3rd for Winslow or Gates, let alone Owen Daniels.

Pantherstang84
02-26-2009, 01:43 PM
Isn't it tampering to release information regarding interest and money about another team's free agent before the FA period begins?

It probably is.

1) Consider the source.

2) For those wanting picks over OD, put the crack pipe down, slowly back away and repeat after me, "Fantasy Football has damaged my brain! Fantasy Football has damaged my brain!"

3) Earlier in the thread someone remarked that "good football teams" deal their best low draft choice players for more picks from other teams. Buuuuuuuwaaaaahaaahaaahaaa! See #2. That is what "good football team" owners like Bud and Crazy Al do.

/thread participation

barrett
02-26-2009, 02:06 PM
We still need to tender: Butler, DAnderson, Cochran, Dressen and I've not heard anything about them yet.

This is what i'm nervous about. Let's get to tenderizing!

threetoedpete
02-26-2009, 03:48 PM
We still need to tender: Butler, DAnderson, Cochran, Dressens and I've not heard anything about them yet.

Until I hear other wise, I believe all of those guys you just listed are bubble guys this off season. I think they'll be offered what they are due. Not a whole lot more. They must think the world of Butler. Lot of speed at WR in this class. Cochran's got a toe injury. Dressen's a good soldier.

Polo
02-26-2009, 03:51 PM
I'm thinking those guys all have good shots st being rotation guys next season.

Buffi2
02-26-2009, 04:04 PM
This is a dumb question. Can all RFA's be tendered or is there a limit per team?

infantrycak
02-26-2009, 04:07 PM
This is a dumb question. Can all RFA's be tendered or is there a limit per team?

Unlimited.

TEXANS84
02-26-2009, 04:17 PM
For all the Buffalo Bills speculation, the Bills just cut starting TE Robert Royal.

Polo
02-26-2009, 04:20 PM
For all the Buffalo Bills speculation, the Bills just cut starting TE Robert Royal.

If the Bills decide to give up a 1st and a 3rd I will be extrememly confused and excited about their decision.

TimeKiller
02-26-2009, 04:54 PM
If the Bills decide to give up a 1st and a 3rd I will be extrememly confused and excited about their decision.

Who would you get at 12 and 15?

I'd try my best to make Orakpo/Maualuga happen. Reality is we'd be lucky to get ONE of those guys at 12. Orakpo/Davis maybe? Maualuga/Cushing and then use the extra 4th, a 2nd to get up in the 2nd enough to get Matthews for a USC LB house cleaning and tell Demeco to can it because his ass just got moved to Safety.

DiehardChris
02-26-2009, 05:00 PM
Who would you get at 12 and 15?

I'd try my best to make Orakpo/Maualuga happen. Reality is we'd be lucky to get ONE of those guys at 12. Orakpo/Davis maybe? Maualuga/Cushing and then use the extra 4th, a 2nd to get up in the 2nd enough to get Matthews for a USC LB house cleaning and tell Demeco to can it because his ass just got moved to Safety.

I'd probably go Orakpo at 11, and I'd be very tempted to reach for Sintim at 15.

Or - if Raji slips out of the top ten, I'd take him at 11 since Denver would grab him at 12, then at 15 probably still consider reaching for Sintim. With two first round draft picks, I'd feel a lot less strange about reaching with one of them.

Still, this is fantasy. The Bills aren't going to give that much up for a TE. I don't think any team would EVER give up that much for a TE even if it was a young Tony Gonzalez.

DiehardChris
02-26-2009, 05:01 PM
Well, we're just about an hour past the deadline for the RFA tenders - still no word on any other RFAs besides Owen getting an tender offer?

Polo
02-26-2009, 05:01 PM
Who would you get at 12 and 15?

I'd try my best to make Orakpo/Maualuga happen. Reality is we'd be lucky to get ONE of those guys at 12. Orakpo/Davis maybe? Maualuga/Cushing and then use the extra 4th, a 2nd to get up in the 2nd enough to get Matthews for a USC LB house cleaning and tell Demeco to can it because his ass just got moved to Safety.

Honestly I don't know what I'd do...

Packaging the one and the three to move up for Orakpo and then taking best LB available at 15 would be nice.

Goatcheese
02-26-2009, 05:08 PM
Still, this is fantasy. The Bills aren't going to give that much up for a TE. I don't think any team would EVER give up that much for a TE even if it was a young Tony Gonzalez.

Rumor has them thinking Pettigrew at 11. I'd much rather have OD.

I don't think the Texans would go for it, but the teams can settle on compensation less than the requirement. I'd rather just keep our Stud TE, who is getting better every season, and could be years away from reaching his max potential.

DiehardChris
02-26-2009, 05:19 PM
Rumor has them thinking Pettigrew at 11. I'd much rather have OD.

I don't think the Texans would go for it, but the teams can settle on compensation less than the requirement. I'd rather just keep our Stud TE, who is getting better every season, and could be years away from reaching his max potential.

If the Buffalo Bills - with HUGE pass rush problems - worse than the Texans - draft a freaking tight end at #11 overall in the draft - someone will eat someone else's hat. That would be the dumbest thing ever.

I actually had the Bills in the Texans Talk mock draft, so I've researched them pretty well... they have a need at TE, but it's not anywhere near as important as their need for a pass rusher. They can get TEs Jared Cook in the 2nd or James Casey in the 2nd or 3rd.

But hey, rumors are rumors. If they're stupid enough to give up two high picks for a TE, I'll hate to see Owen go - but I can't say I'd be very angry about it. It's a win-win for the Texans.

dalemurphy
02-26-2009, 05:25 PM
Well, we're just about an hour past the deadline for the RFA tenders - still no word on any other RFAs besides Owen getting an tender offer?

You guys in Houston, are you hearing anything on the radio. I probably shouldn't be so nervous about it, but nothing is being reported.

Rashod Butler
Joel Dressens
David Anderson
Earl Cochran...

I really like Cochran but am very concerned they let him walk based on the last thing I heard from Kubiak about his propensity for injuries.

ArlingtonTexan
02-26-2009, 05:30 PM
You guys in Houston, are you hearing anything on the radio. I probably shouldn't be so nervous about it, but nothing is being reported.

Rashod Butler
Joel Dressens
David Anderson
Earl Cochran...

I really like Cochran but am very concerned they let him walk based on the last thing I heard from Kubiak about his propensity for injuries.

I am listen to one station online and nothing. One of the things that has constantly been minor irratation to me is the slowness which the Texans announce these type of deals.

DiehardChris
02-26-2009, 05:49 PM
You guys in Houston, are you hearing anything on the radio. I probably shouldn't be so nervous about it, but nothing is being reported.

Rashod Butler
Joel Dressens
David Anderson
Earl Cochran...

I really like Cochran but am very concerned they let him walk based on the last thing I heard from Kubiak about his propensity for injuries.

I'm not the biggest Anderson fan. I don't think he'd be a great loss. I share your concern about Cochran. Kubiak expressed doubt that Salaam would be back - he's gone. He expressed doubt about Cochran, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was not tendered.

But uh - with Salaam gone, I'd be SHOCKED if we don't tender Butler. If we don't, then my current seven-round Texans mock is wrecked. LOL.

dalemurphy
02-26-2009, 06:00 PM
I'm not the biggest Anderson fan. I don't think he'd be a great loss. I share your concern about Cochran. Kubiak expressed doubt that Salaam would be back - he's gone. He expressed doubt about Cochran, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was not tendered.

But uh - with Salaam gone, I'd be SHOCKED if we don't tender Butler. If we don't, then my current seven-round Texans mock is wrecked. LOL.

I'm not a big fan of DAnderson either, but if we're moving JJ, then that would leave us a lot of work to do at WR. And, Anderson certainly can fill the role of a 4th WR, special teams guy and he's pretty dirt cheap going forward. So, I'd like to see him tendered.

b0ng
02-28-2009, 04:11 PM
Read in another General Football Forum that the Bills are attempting to trade for Owen Daniels.

I hope for a Kings ransom.

Jackie Chiles
02-28-2009, 04:12 PM
Read in another General Football Forum that the Bills are attempting to trade for Owen Daniels.

I hope for a Kings ransom.

Was this recently reported or was this before we found out what Owen was tendered?

Mailman
02-28-2009, 04:20 PM
For the Bills the tight end position has been a struggle to fill with one solid all-around talent, and not just recently. Outside of Pete Metzelaars there aren’t too many tight ends in Buffalo’s 50-year history that excelled at the position for an extended period of time.

Once again the Bills are in search of an all-encompassing answer at the position to help diversify an offense still trying to get into the upper echelon of NFL attacks. That search became even more pressing with the release of Robert Royal earlier this week.

“We’re going to be looking at tight ends and if a guy that we like is there, whether it’s free agency, whether it’s in the draft you’d like to add to the mix,” said offensive coordinator Turk Schonert.
http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/help-wanted-at-tight-end/3e725fec-4c16-4ac4-8e0e-6a9b075b6b96


Hmmmm.

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 04:36 PM
Here's a little list of rumblings/coincidences that would lead one to believe a trade with Buffalo could happen:

1. McClain's comment last week about the "little birdie"
2. We haven't talked to OD about an extension but max tendered him
3. The only '09 FA or RFA we've signed to a deal so far is Dressen (3yrs)
4. Robert Royal's release
5. an article about Buffalo's need/pursuit of a TE through "any means"


My guess is that there will be/has been some discussions but in the end, the teams won't agree on compensation. and Buffalo won't sign him away and give up a 1st and 3rd.

b0ng
02-28-2009, 04:41 PM
Here's a little list of rumblings/coincidences that would lead one to believe a trade with Buffalo could happen:

1. McClain's comment last week about the "little birdie"
2. We haven't talked to OD about an extension but max tendered him
3. The only '09 FA or RFA we've signed to a deal so far is Dressen (3yrs)
4. Robert Royal's release
5. an article about Buffalo's need/pursuit of a TE through "any means"


My guess is that there will be/has been some discussions but in the end, the teams won't agree on compensation. and Buffalo won't sign him away and give up a 1st and 3rd.

Yes, and if the Texans gave up Daniels for less than that I would probably be kinda pissed. I don't know.

GP
02-28-2009, 04:46 PM
Read in another General Football Forum that the Bills are attempting to trade for Owen Daniels.

I hope for a Kings ransom.

OD and this Texans offense have been a match made in heaven. He gets utilized like a WR, making his catches and YAC in ways that you normally see WRs making them. I've amazed at how quick he gets off the line and into open space, scorching LBs and catching DBs snoozing.

If we can exploit that for a King's ransom...it will be THE best trade in Texans football history, and it will benefit US for a change.

I think OD would die a slow and agonizing death in Buffalo, so I would feel sorry that such a great player would end up that way, but so be it. I'm more of a "what's best for the team" guy anyways.

If the Bills are THAT deluded, then (as Hervoyel says) "Get this deal done before they realize how bad it is for THEM." There's no way a top-tier TE is going to make them better right now. They have serious holes in ownership, management, coaching, QB'ing, and possibly in RB'ing as well.

This was a great move by our front office. One of many over the past few weeks. We retain OD unless someone wants him more. And...it will benefit us all the more.

Mailman
02-28-2009, 04:47 PM
Interesting theory dale. Could anyone else see the Texans swapping firsts and also taking the Bills second round pick for OD? Going by the draft value chart, the Texans would be receive roughly 680 points, or the equivalent of the 27th overall pick for Daniels.

dickieb
02-28-2009, 05:07 PM
There is also a couple of good TE in the draft, by signing Dressen and if we got a 1st and 3rd we could get another good young TE with one of the picks and have the other to sign a player that would fill another position of need.

Mailman
02-28-2009, 05:11 PM
There is also a couple of good TE in the draft, by signing Dressen and if we got a 1st and 3rd we could get another good young TE with one of the picks and have the other to sign a player that would fill another position of need.

We are not getting a 1st and a 3rd for a TE.

barrett
02-28-2009, 05:53 PM
If this does go down, and I agree Dale that the signs point to it (assuming compensation is agreed on) I think it's a brilliant move. Open Daniels is my favorite player and I'd absolutely send him packing if it means the continued depth and balance of this team. The Dreesen contract is the biggest part of this because we've got a guy who could potentially take over the same role as Daniels for very little money over the next three years. Obviously, the added pick(s) allows the Texans to continue to build with smart value in mid rounds which ensures long term stability.

I love Open Daniels. If this deal goes down Dale is gonna get hired by the Texans. I'll miss him...

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 05:58 PM
If this does go down, and I agree Dale that the signs point to it (assuming compensation is agreed on) I think it's a brilliant move. Open Daniels is my favorite player and I'd absolutely send him packing if it means the continued depth and balance of this team. The Dreesen contract is the biggest part of this because we've got a guy who could potentially take over the same role as Daniels for very little money over the next three years. Obviously, the added pick(s) allows the Texans to continue to build with smart value in mid rounds which ensures long term stability.

I love Open Daniels. If this deal goes down Dale is gonna get hired by the Texans. I'll miss him...

Imagine how much better this team would be right now if they'd hired me in 2002! Oh, I forgot, I was a big David Carr supporter. I think that I even justified the Phillip Buchanan trade. I know I was excited about Tony Hollings and I absolutely LOVED Seth Wand!

Hooston Texan
02-28-2009, 05:58 PM
It would have to be one incredibly sweet deal to get me to even think about moving Daniels. He is a critical part of the offense (his penchant for fumbling aside), and he's on the same page with Schaub. Matt has always had the luxury of a top-shelf tight end in his career (OD, plus Alge Crumpler in Atlanta and Heath Miller at Virginia), and he relies on them heavily. We'd be moving into some unknown territory if we roll the dice with the TE position.

If I was a GM, there is no way I'd offer a first and third--especially high ones like the Bills have--for a TE. But if I'm Rick Smith, I'm not sure I'd take that deal if someone was dumb enough to offer it. Unless I'm totally convinced that Dreesen is an undiscovered Pro Bowler.

The Pencil Neck
02-28-2009, 06:09 PM
It would hurt me to lose Owen Daniels. I would hate to lose him.

But a first and a third?

I would find a way to live with that but I would continue to root for OD in Buffalo. We could maybe pick up that kid from Rice (Casey?) to go with Dreesen. With 2 firsts, we could even get Pettigrew.

Lucky
02-28-2009, 06:30 PM
Other than this forum and John McClain's mouth, has there been another source that would suggest the Bills are interested in offering Daniels a contract? I haven't seen an unfounded rumor spread this fast since...Peppers to the Texans 2 weeks ago.

GuerillaBlack
02-28-2009, 06:44 PM
They are talking about it on the Bills message board.

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 06:45 PM
Other than this forum and John McClain's mouth, has there been another source that would suggest the Bills are interested in offering Daniels a contract? I haven't seen an unfounded rumor spread this fast since...Peppers to the Texans 2 weeks ago.

This is what I posted last page. I'm not suggesting that a deal is going to happen but I just accumulated all the coincidences, rumors, etc... into one list.

1. McClain's comment last week about the "little birdie"
2. We haven't talked to OD about an extension but max tendered him
3. The only '09 FA or RFA we've signed to a deal so far is Dressen (3yrs)
4. Robert Royal's release
5. an article about Buffalo's need/pursuit of a TE through "any means"

barrett
02-28-2009, 06:50 PM
No one is saying it's going to happen. We're saying signs are pointing to it being a possibility. And everyone who's mentioning a 1st and a 3rd STOP. They aren't going to make that trade. No one would. The two teams would have to agree on a compensation. For example, Cassel went for a 2nd. He was tendered the same as Open Daniels. You tender for insurance to have the final say no matter what.

edit: my mistake. Cassel was an URFA. but you get the point.

Lucky
02-28-2009, 06:50 PM
I'm not suggesting that a deal is going to happen but I just accumulated all the coincidences, rumors, etc... into one list.
Which boils down to a comment by Da General. And unless you're privileged to the Texans contract discussions, item #2 on your list is completely unknown. You have to admit that it seems to be much ado about nothing.

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 06:59 PM
Which boils down to a comment by Da General. And unless you're privileged to the Texans contract discussions, item #2 on your list is completely unknown. You have to admit that it seems to be much ado about nothing.

I find the Dressen extension to be fairly suspicious. They haven't extended any of the other RFAs: Cochran, DAnderson, OD himself, Rashod Butler... but they got him done in a hurry. That to me, in connection with the comment by John McClain makes me think that they're either looking at the possibility of a trade or they are concerned that OD may get signed away from them in a deal they won't match.

Pantherstang84
02-28-2009, 07:02 PM
I find the Dressen extension to be fairly suspicious. They haven't extended any of the other RFAs: Cochran, DAnderson, OD himself, Rashod Butler... but they got him done in a hurry. That to me, in connection with the comment by John McClain makes me think that they're either looking at the possibility of a trade or they are concerned that OD may get signed away from them in a deal they won't match.

Actually, Daniels did get tendered at the highest possible level. Any other team who decides they can't live without him has to cough up a 1st and 3rd pick.

Kaiser Toro
02-28-2009, 07:02 PM
This is what I posted last page. I'm not suggesting that a deal is going to happen but I just accumulated all the coincidences, rumors, etc... into one list.

1. McClain's comment last week about the "little birdie"
2. We haven't talked to OD about an extension but max tendered him
3. The only '09 FA or RFA we've signed to a deal so far is Dressen (3yrs)
4. Robert Royal's release
5. an article about Buffalo's need/pursuit of a TE through "any means"

One other thing to consider is that Kollar could be a protagonist in this as well since he just came over from the Bills.

Sincerely,
KT
Master Thespian
Theater of the Absurd

b0ng
02-28-2009, 07:03 PM
They are talking about it on the Bills message board.

Link me homie.

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 07:05 PM
Actually, Daniels did get tendered at the highest possible level. Any other team who decides they can't live without him has to cough up a 1st and 3rd pick.

Yes, Daniels got tendered but not extended. That's my point. They actually have protected Dressen (an RFA) by giving him a 3 year contract while they've left all their other RFAs in the market to be signed away- it's already happened to DAnderson.

Lucky
02-28-2009, 07:17 PM
They actually have protected Dressen (an RFA) by giving him a 3 year contract while they've left all their other RFAs in the market to be signed away...
Who would've signed Dreessen? He's caught 15 balls in 2 years. He was fortunate to get the deal he got. I applaud his agent.

I still don't understand how re-signing the backup TE has an effect on a possible trade of Owen Daniels. I'm really not trying to be obtuse. Whether the Texans moved Daniels or not, they would still need a backup TE. And that's all Dreessen is.

GuerillaBlack
02-28-2009, 07:20 PM
Link me homie.

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=83097

dalemurphy
02-28-2009, 07:25 PM
Who would've signed Dreessen? He's caught 15 balls in 2 years. He was fortunate to get the deal he got. I applaud his agent.

I still don't understand how re-signing the backup TE has an effect on a possible trade of Owen Daniels. I'm really not trying to be obtuse. Whether the Texans moved Daniels or not, they would still need a backup TE. And that's all Dreessen is.

My theory is that the briskness at which they extended Dressen (in comparison to the other 5 RFAs) suggests they may have somehow deemed his presence on the team to be a higher priority than the others. The fact that Dressen has had less impact on the team than guys like DAnderson, R.Butler (the new swing tackle), Cochran... makes it more likely to me that his role is going to increase (or could)... So, why would it increase and why would they want to secure him through 2011? Not sure, but perhaps it's because of the possibility that OD will end up elsewhere--either by trade or fear of him be signed to a contract that they can't/won't match. Clearly someone from the Texans, Bills, or knowledgable about the NFL told McClain specifically that the Bills had interest in OD.

Lucky
02-28-2009, 07:44 PM
My theory is that the briskness at which they extended Dressen (in comparison to the other 5 RFAs) suggests they may have somehow deemed his presence on the team to be a higher priority than the others...Clearly someone from the Texans, Bills, or knowledgable about the NFL told McClain specifically that the Bills had interest in OD.
Maybe Dreessen's agent just grabbed the Texans initial offer? And why wouldn't he? That's how I see it.

Clearly, someone said something to McClain. He's not capable of an original thought. But if you look at Daniels to Buffalo from practical standpoint, it doesn't make sense. The Bills won't give up a 1st and 3rd and a big contract for a TE. The Texans aren't going to accept much less for losing a productive player and creating a hole in their lineup. And it's not as if Daniels is unhappy here and pushing for a deal. There's no logic to this. Add that to the near lack of anecdotal evidence, and this seems pretty ridiculous.

Specnatz
02-28-2009, 07:46 PM
I find the Dressen extension to be fairly suspicious. They haven't extended any of the other RFAs: Cochran, DAnderson, OD himself, Rashod Butler... but they got him done in a hurry. That to me, in connection with the comment by John McClain makes me think that they're either looking at the possibility of a trade or they are concerned that OD may get signed away from them in a deal they won't match.

Why? The Texans usually carry 3 TE and while I have not seen the contract details, because the crack smokin, ding-dong eating, video makin "reporters" at the comical did not get the details, but I am sure they were working on a contract before they even tendered him as a RFA. I doubt it breaks the bank and besides he is a very good blocker and has improved greatly as a pass catcher.

b0ng
02-28-2009, 08:14 PM
Can a team attempt to sign an RFA to an offer sheet after this years draft?

Pantherstang84
02-28-2009, 08:15 PM
Yes, Daniels got tendered but not extended. That's my point. They actually have protected Dressen (an RFA) by giving him a 3 year contract while they've left all their other RFAs in the market to be signed away- it's already happened to DAnderson.

The main thing to remember is the Texans get the right of first refusal on the RFA's. Andersen is not gone. The Texans can still match and sign. Nothing prevents them from extending Daniels before the season starts either. Yes there is a ton of cap space available this year. Prudence dictates that the Texans not blow it all on extending RFAs so they can sign FAs from other teams and draft picks. Afterwards they can take care of Dunta, Demeco, OD...

It's called money management. It's actually a pretty good concept. And...

What better way to find out what a player is worth on the market? Let them dip their toes in the water and come back with a price.

Pantherstang84
02-28-2009, 08:15 PM
Can a team attempt to sign an RFA to an offer sheet after this years draft?

I don't think so.

GuerillaBlack
02-28-2009, 08:33 PM
Help me out with this because I have wondered this for the longest: how does a player become a RFA versus a UFA? Help a brotha out!

Specnatz
02-28-2009, 08:44 PM
Help me out with this because I have wondered this for the longest: how does a player become a RFA versus a UFA? Help a brotha out!


Status Legend

UFA (Unrestricted free agent) - A player who has completed four or more accrued seasons and whose contract has expired.

RFA (Restricted free agent) - A player who has completed three accrued seasons and whose contract has expired.

EFA (Exclusive restricted FA) - A player whose contract expires at a time when he has less than three accrued seasons.

Franchise - A restricted free agent who has been designated as a franchise player.

texansdrummer
02-28-2009, 10:07 PM
Pay him.....he's a keeper.

GP
02-28-2009, 11:27 PM
Imagine how much better this team would be right now if they'd hired me in 2002! Oh, I forgot, I was a big David Carr supporter. I think that I even justified the Phillip Buchanan trade. I know I was excited about Tony Hollings and I absolutely LOVED Seth Wand!

Dale...do not go to work for the Texans.

LOL. j/k

b0ng
02-28-2009, 11:42 PM
Dale...do not go to work for the Texans.

LOL. j/k

Actually, you could just take the j/k part off and I think even dale would be perfectly fine with that. He loved Seth Wand.

mexican_texan
03-01-2009, 01:05 AM
Who would've signed Dreessen? He's caught 15 balls in 2 years. He was fortunate to get the deal he got. I applaud his agent.

I still don't understand how re-signing the backup TE has an effect on a possible trade of Owen Daniels. I'm really not trying to be obtuse. Whether the Texans moved Daniels or not, they would still need a backup TE. And that's all Dreessen is.
Apart from being a contributor on special teams, he's solid on offense. If you have a game DVR'd, go back and look for him. He's a good blocker and a servicable target, he's certainly no Marcellus Rivers or Courtney Anderson, or whatever scrub we've had at TE. We may have paid him well for being a role player, but he would've made that money elsewhere, if not in Buffalo, certainly in Cincinnati.

GP
03-01-2009, 01:19 AM
Actually, you could just take the j/k part off and I think even dale would be perfectly fine with that. He loved Seth Wand.

It was Phyllis Buchanon that did it for me. I can understand rooting for Seth Wand to make the team. But Phyllis?!?!

That was easily the worst free agent acquisition on defense we've ever had, and Weaver does not approach the absurdness of Phyllis (IMO). How could Dale have embraced that deal?

Dale!