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View Full Version : biggest draft need is obvious now


keyfro
01-13-2005, 12:38 PM
with seth payne going down with another leg injury that is going to require surgery again...NT is our biggest need...whether the answer is drafting a guy like spears or shaun cody and putting them at DE and moving Smith to NT or drafting a NT we gotta get a bigger, stronger, faster NT in order for us to progress as a defense

F-minus67
01-13-2005, 02:07 PM
NT is a need on draft day, but not the biggest need. What we need the most is a player who can get to the QB. Have this player be an end who plays like Aaron Smith of the Steelers or a Terrell Suggs at OLB. Good NTs can be found in the 3rd to 5th round and good pass rushers are hard to find.

hou059
01-13-2005, 03:26 PM
Yeah, I would to stick Gilbert Brown's fat ***** at NT and let him sit there and take up blockers! You don't need to draft a quality NT these days. But when a good one comes a round in the draft you should jump on the chance!

DoCt3rJ
01-13-2005, 03:57 PM
You say good nose tackles can be found late rounds? Any position can be found late rounds, it's just the luck of the draw. Luck of the find. I would of loved to have Wilfork, but we got just as good or better corner in Robinson. I think Smith could handle the NT position and we just draft a DE that can really put some pass rush on the QB. Marcus Spears would fit perfect, or Cody.

Grid
01-13-2005, 04:05 PM
if you look around the league at 3-4 DTs.. the starters arent exactly all late round picks. There are as many first rounders as third and 4th rounders it seems. And my all time favorite 3-4 DT.. Casey Hampton of the steelers.. was a first round pick.

yah its possible to get a good DT in the later rounds.. but that doesnt mean that you should pass up a good one in the 1st or 2nd round.

As for our pass rush.. one of the biggest problems with our pass rush is not a lack of talent at OLB.. its our Dline. Our dline is not just there to stop the run, they have to tie up blockers and free up the OLBs.. and they have to provide a bit of pressure up the middle themselves, to flush the QB out of the pocket whenever possible. So, improving our Dline will improve our pass rush.

F-minus67
01-13-2005, 04:28 PM
the pass rush problem is made of a few things, the LB corps has Wong in the wrong position, Wong should be a MLB. He is better in coverage and run stopping than rushing the passer. The other teams who run the 3-4 sucessfully, have good NT. But honestly are there any players in this draft this year that are in the same league as Hampton, Wilfork or Washington? And teams like the Pats and Steelers also have good to great DEs to help the NT.

keyfro
01-13-2005, 05:06 PM
does anyone else wish that instead of drafting babin last year we would have picked up wilfork so this wouldn't be a problem

Grid
01-13-2005, 05:09 PM
nah I think Babin will be a great player for us in the future..

Vinny
01-13-2005, 05:12 PM
does anyone else wish that instead of drafting babin last year we would have picked up wilfork so this wouldn't be a problemWilfork wasn't good enough to start last year (we will see how he develops). I'm happy with Babin though. I think it is much harder finding quality OLB's in the 3-4 than finding a nose tackle.

Blake
01-13-2005, 05:49 PM
does anyone else wish that instead of drafting babin last year we would have picked up wilfork so this wouldn't be a problem

I dont think we had enough ammo to even try to move up that far. Wilfork was drafted at #21. So that means we would have had to trade up to #20 with Minnisota, who had their eye on Udeze, so I doubt they would have accepted. And next is Miami at #19 who traded up with minn to get Carey. And on and on.

So you would have basically had to trade up to somewhere around #15 at a price of 1,050 points, vs. # 27 at a price of 680 points.

So as you can see it was basically impossible to get both Dunta and Wilfork.

dalemurphy
01-13-2005, 06:22 PM
When the defense starts getting some push up the middle, you'll see the sack totals of Babin, Peek,and Wong all jump a great deal. QBs were able to step up in the pocket on us all season and avoid the outside pressure.

nunusguy
01-14-2005, 09:41 PM
does anyone else wish that instead of drafting babin last year we would have picked up wilfork so this wouldn't be a problem
You have to ask yourself this question, instead of what we have now, would
you rather have Wong & Peek @ the OLBs and Wilfork in our line right now
with a year of experience under his belt. I answer that question in this way:
many already feel we would have been better off with Peek in the lineup on
a fulltime basis and most agree that Wong had a very good year. Add Wilfork
to that group and our D is set.

infantrycak
01-16-2005, 06:29 PM
Vince Wilfork isn't even the starting NT on a team that lost their starting NT to FA last year and y'all think he is an obvious upgrade to Payne? Great depth/development player yeah, but he wouldn't have started for the Texans this year either.

TexansCanes
01-16-2005, 09:28 PM
he is also on the NT for a team that just won the super bowl and drafted ty warren the year before. wilfork would have been nice but we just would have had to give up to much to draft him.

Hottoddie
01-17-2005, 01:02 AM
This year's Wilfork is Antaaj Hawthorne & he's right there for us to pick. :hyper:

beerlover
01-17-2005, 02:00 AM
Wilfork wasn't good enough to start last year (we will see how he develops). I'm happy with Babin though. I think it is much harder finding quality OLB's in the 3-4 than finding a nose tackle.

finally a mis-step, much harder to find Quality OLB's in the 3-4 than finding a NT? Not ture at all. there is only one, maybe in Hawthorne (Ngata will be #1 next year barring injury). There are both linebakers in college as well as DE's that can convert to OLB (just like Babin) for instance I see Pollack being a superior talent & Matt Roth as equal to Babin, not to mention Derrick Johnson, Kevin Burnett & Dan Cody.

Sco-tai
01-17-2005, 03:23 AM
finally a mis-step, much harder to find Quality OLB's in the 3-4 than finding a NT? Not ture at all. there is only one, maybe in Hawthorne (Ngata will be #1 next year barring injury). There are both linebakers in college as well as DE's that can convert to OLB (just like Babin) for instance I see Pollack being a superior talent & Matt Roth as equal to Babin, not to mention Derrick Johnson, Kevin Burnett & Dan Cody.

A mis-step? I would actually be more inclined to agree with Vinny on this one. I mean...nothing against stud-NT's...but why do you think D-linemen are taken out when the pressure is on, except goaline or 3 & 1? (like in today's game with NE vs Indy...NE was going with only 2 D-linemen!!!). The more atheletically gifted players (thus more rare) between NT and OLB is DEFINITELY found in OLB's.
You can teach a lot of the technique needed to be good as a NT to someone with the right size. But I don't care what size you are as an OLB...either you have the natural atheletic gifts or not.

beerlover
01-17-2005, 09:52 AM
true you can't teach natural born pure athelticism but this applies to all positions. but there are two things you cannot teach speed & size, although you can enhance through training, nutrition etc....its much more rare to find a stud NT than a stud linebacker when you have a multitude to choose from. there is not a blue chip top 10 DT/NT in the whole draft for the second straight year, only one (NGATA) in College football :loser

Vinny
01-17-2005, 12:22 PM
Solid A-gap players a "rare find"? Could it be the beer? :thud:

Pure Nose tackles are rarely first or second round picks. I think BL had Isaac Sapoaga going first round last year. Finding a 250 pound man who can run with backs and take on Guards is much tougher.

Who are the Ravens "A" gap specialists? Kelly Gregg (free agent) Ma'ake Kemoeatu (free agent), and Franklin Aubrayo (third rounder)

Who are the Steelers Nose Tackles? Chris Hoke (free agent) Kendrick Clancy (third rounder)

Who are the Chargers inside tackles? Jamal Williams (supplemental pick), Jason Fisk (under 300 pounds and a 9th round pick a decade ago) Eric Downing (free agent)

Patriots anyone? Keith Traylor (3rd round pick in 91) Vince Wilfork (only first ronder on this page of players) Ethan Kelley (third round pick)

F-minus67
01-17-2005, 01:15 PM
All the players named by Vinny are not what you would call pass rushers, a NT's job in a 3-4 is to control the gaps on either side of the center. Sacks are just a bonus.

Grid
01-17-2005, 01:27 PM
you forgot Casey Hampton for the Steelers. he was a first rounder. he is on IR for them.

beerlover
01-17-2005, 04:06 PM
thats not all his selective memory is forgetting :idea:

what about that pair down in Jacksonville, Henderson 9th overall (2002) & Stroud 13th (2001)???? or New England Richard Seymore 6th pick in 2001 or am I the only one who noticed the development & much improved play of Jets DT Dewayne Robertson taken 4th overall in 2003???? We could both throw numbers on both sides of the equation to stress our points, however if you look at this years draft it should be obvious even to the casual observer there are both LB's & DE's that convert to the NFL as OLB's, here are just a few- Derrick Johnson LB, David Pollack DE, Thomas Davis S, Dan Cody DE, Matt Roth DE, Barrett Ruud, Kevin Burnett LB & Justin Tuck all 1st round possibilites. Compare those numbers to the quality DT's available, Anttaj Hawthorne & Shaun Cody.

hence your opinion that its much harder to find OLB's in a 3-4 is :rofl:

Vinny
01-17-2005, 04:19 PM
Nobody questions that you "can" draft a nose tackle early, but as you obviously cannot see, most teams who play with a man the over the center have rosters filled with later picks and free agents. Why? Because they are not that scarce. Also, I'm talking about a-gap nose tackles. Not defensive tackles in general.

As to your list of players....not all of those guys you list can play outside linebacker in a 3-4. Even Derrick Johnson would be an inside linebacker for us, not outside. Our outside guys are all going to have to be around 250 pounds to take on more direct blocking in run support.

BornOrange
01-17-2005, 06:29 PM
thats not all his selective memory is forgetting :idea:

what about that pair down in Jacksonville, Henderson 9th overall (2002) & Stroud 13th (2001)???? or New England Richard Seymore 6th pick in 2001 or am I the only one who noticed the development & much improved play of Jets DT Dewayne Robertson taken 4th overall in 2003???? We could both throw numbers on both sides of the equation to stress our points, however if you look at this years draft it should be obvious even to the casual observer there are both LB's & DE's that convert to the NFL as OLB's, here are just a few- Derrick Johnson LB, David Pollack DE, Thomas Davis S, Dan Cody DE, Matt Roth DE, Barrett Ruud, Kevin Burnett LB & Justin Tuck all 1st round possibilites. Compare those numbers to the quality DT's available, Anttaj Hawthorne & Shaun Cody.

hence your opinion that its much harder to find OLB's in a 3-4 is :rofl:
Henderson, Stroud, and Robertson play DT in 4-3 defenses.
Seymore plays DE in the 3-4 and DT in their 4-3 schemes.
All the guys you list would be questionable OLB's in a 3-4. Pollack is an intriguing possibility, but who knows if he can drop back in pass coverage?

beerlover
01-18-2005, 12:33 AM
Stroud, Henderson & Roberston easily translate into 3-4 down lineman. All of those mentioned for OLB are no more questionable than Jason Babin was coming out of a small school (Western Michigan) at 6'-2" 260 lbs with no linebacking experience. And I'll mention another OLB for good measure Shawne Merriman http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/playerprofiles/olb/shawnemerriman.html

SESupergenius
01-18-2005, 01:06 AM
We need a guy like Casey Hampton or Jamal Williams. At least 320 but smart with power. Those are the ones that are hard to find. Show me someone in this draft that is that guy and is he in the 1st round?

keyfro
01-18-2005, 12:34 PM
the reason i brought this question up was to see the logical debate...glad to see with all the youngsters on this forum now there is still a lot of logical debater's that know what they're talking about...here's my two cents...the reason wilfork isn't starting is because new england has keith traylor and ty warren who are solid NT's in the game...the reason i think wilfork would have been a better pick for us than babin is simply with the injury to payne last year and now this year it looks like we'll need a new NT whether that's moving robaire over or drafting a new one...payne i'm sorry i don't see regaining his true form...he's around 30 or so and that's when d-lineman injuries start to stack up...nothing against babin but i thought at the time karlos dansby was the better 3-4 olb...time will prove me wrong hopefully...but as of now it's time to look at our current draft...hawthorne is dominate force in the middle and i think we might want to look at him...or drafting shaun cody and moving smith to the middle

beerlover
01-18-2005, 12:53 PM
protecting David Carr is the #1 Need. The #2 Need is to establish a more effective ground game which compliments the #1 Need. The #3 Need is a better pass rush from the front 3.

two years ago Wilfork was a top 10 pick then he returned to school for his senior season, lost a lot of money but now is on the pathway to a Superbowl ring. i really expected the Texans to draft Wilfork @ 10, i'm happy they didn't and drafted Dunta Robinson instead, at the time OLB was a bigger need than DT, hence the trade up for Babin.

Blake
01-18-2005, 03:03 PM
I agree that the o-line is the most important peice of a team. It protects the QB. Makes lanes for the RB, and basically determines how well the offense will perform.

But I dont see any spot on the o-line that brining in a rookie would solve. Maybe depth. But thats about all.

then you move on to the D-line. We have an injured NT, and not much quality depth behind him. Also, this is an area that I think a rookie would not be of any use.

I think the most logical choice would be a FA D-lineman, like Smith last year (Corey Simon is an idea) ,and maybe another FA O-lineman, like Joe Andruzzi. (who should be a FA)

In the draft I think we should go either S,CB,WR,TE,LB.

Some picks I would like.

Round 1. Derrick Johnson
Round 1. Adam (PM) Jones
Round 1. Thomas Davis

Round 2. Brandon Browner
Round 2. Kevin Burnett
Round 2. Ernest Shazor

Round 3. Oshiomogho Atogwe
Round 3. Terrence Murphy
Round 3. Alex Smith