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View Full Version : OLB shuffle? Gary Walker gets me thinking.


Blake
01-12-2005, 07:23 PM
With all the help we need with pash rush, and the importance of some good OLB, why do the Texans keep letting go OLB like Posey, and Foley?

Was it just that the Texans didnt offer them more than another team?

Or was it that the Texans really didnt try to get them to stay?

To be honest, I dont know much on this subject, which is why Im asking.

Texan Gal 312
01-12-2005, 07:42 PM
With all the help we need with pash rush, and the importance of some good OLB, why do the Texans keep letting go OLB like Posey, and Foley?

Was it just that the Texans didnt offer them more than another team?

Or was it that the Texans really didnt try to get them to stay?

To be honest, I dont know much on this subject, which is why Im asking.

I knoqw the Bills swoop in and signed Posey on the first day of free agency. I don't think Posey even gave them a chance to make him an offer in response.

I think Foley just blossomed this year or found a good fit or a combination thereof. It wasn't like he was a big name free agent that SD signed I don't think many on this board even made a minor fuss over the Texans losing Foley. Until recently, of course. Hindsight is always much better

Mistril48
01-12-2005, 08:02 PM
With all the help we need with pash rush ... why do the Texans keep letting go OLB like ... Foley?...
I see a caution flag on Foley. I know he had a good year, but remember, he wasn't drafted by the Texans. The question is "why did the Bengals let him go ..." and then the Texans had a look see (didn't cost them anything) and let him move on. ???

Vinny
01-12-2005, 08:03 PM
We picked Foley off Waivers from the Bengals. I guess he was just a late bloomer, or was just a better fit in the Wade Phillips scheme. On Posey, Texan Gal is right, he bolted as an unrestricted FA. He signed with the Bills shortly after Midnight as soon as he was eligible if my memory serves me correctly.

texasguy346
01-12-2005, 08:11 PM
On Posey, Texan Gal is right, he bolted as an unrestricted FA. He signed with the Bills shortly after Midnight as soon as he was eligible if my memory serves me correctly.

Thats how I remember it too, and I think the Texans believed they'd be able to purpose a counter offer before Posey would sign any contract but that turned out not to be the case. Either the Texans management was misled by either Posey or his agent, or the Texans management made an assumption that proved out to be wrong. I find it a little hard to believe that the Texans management made the assumption that they'd have a chance to match any offer to an UFA without having been led to believe they would from either Posey or his agent.

Vinny
01-12-2005, 10:08 PM
John Abraham is not a 3-4 end. He would be a linebacker here. Also, Babin is the starter at strong side linebacker. Not much question about that.

texan279
01-12-2005, 10:32 PM
I think this could be our D for next year:
FS: Marcus Coleman SS:Glenn Earl
CB: Dunta Robinson CB: Aaron Glenn OR we could go after Charles Woodson?
MLB: Jamie Sharper, Kailee Wong
OLB: Cheatwood, Antwan Peek, Babin(?)
END: Gary Walker, John Abraham
Nose: Robaire Smith

NO WAY. Woodson is overrated and overpaid. The fans in Oakland don't even want him there anymore.

playoffsin2005
01-12-2005, 10:44 PM
He could be there at #13. If not, can we trade up? I think Adalius Thomas is an UFA. He could be the answer to our passs rush woes opposite Babin. Wong can be moved back inside.

F-minus67
01-12-2005, 10:53 PM
I don't think it was mentioned, but when does the free agency period start?

playoffsin2005
01-12-2005, 11:07 PM
I would imagine it would have to be after the season ends. Nevertheless, we need a pass rush. I think Pollack could give us the kind of game the Ravens get from Suggs on the outside.

Grid
01-13-2005, 12:57 AM
yah babin is staying.. and rightfully so. He may not have been flashy but he looked very good for a rookie. Im betting hes gonna be alot better next season.

I think its going to be Wong/Peek on the weak side again.. They will split carries with peek getting about half. I dont see either of them getting benched.

As for cheatwood.. unless he comes in and really impresses.. I see him being a situational pass rusher... sorta like peek was at the beggining of this season. Depending on how far Babin comes along.. we may be seeing Peek and Cheatwood on the outside during pass rush situations.

other than that.. I dont see much change.. Maybe Polk instead of Foreman at middle LB.

There will probably be some changes on the Dline but I doubt they will happen in free agency, im betting we are gonna have a couple rookies getting playing time though.

Glenn will start for another year, maybe as our 2nd CB though, with Dunta being 1st. I soon expect to see Faggins get his job though, with a rookie CB learning the ropes as our nickle guy.

Coleman at FS is also a lock.. and Earl is our man at SS. SO.. yah.. I really dont see a whole lot changing next season, except our line. Robaire is the only guy who is a lock on our Dline.

LB Love
01-13-2005, 01:18 AM
I think Foley just blossomed this year or found a good fit or a combination thereof.

Yea, there was a blurb in ESPN the mag that pretty much said that.

"When he signed with Houston as a free agent in 2003, Foley thought he'd thrive in the Texans' 3-4. But Dom Capers' emphasis on the zone blitz meant Foley was stuck in coverage as often as he rushed the passer."

Still not sure how I feel about Capers and Fangio's complicated defensive schemes...

Cincinnatikid
01-13-2005, 08:47 AM
do people not realize this team needs inside lbs and not outside. Babin played well this season, Peek should start next season. THen they have Wong who should play inside but can back up outside as well, and they have the new guy from CFL. Why would they sign anyone else? All this talk of the pass rush being bad. I think that if peek and babin are in together and stop getting double teamed cuz the the line picks it up, then the sacks will be coming next season. Besides they had so many pressures and qb hits between the two of them, you know all they need is another split second and the sacks would be there.

Texan Gal 312
01-13-2005, 09:04 AM
Why is everyone so high on Cheatwood. We signed him from the CFL. It would be a plus if he makes the team and most likely he would play only special teams. I would say Charlie Anderson and Shantee Orr will be ahead of him on the depth chart.

Keep an eye on Anderson - He is a converted college defensive, drafted in the sixth round in 2004. The lowest of the 2004 draft picks to make the team. I would say making the team at OLB and getting enough playing time to be noticed in your rookie year while making the conversion from DE is way ahead on the development curve.

hou059
01-13-2005, 10:34 AM
Nothing changes in the front seven. Peek probably will get more playing time and possobly a rookie DT getting some reps, deepening our d-line rotation. But all this talk of Cheatwood starting at OLB or seeing significant playing time for us is crazy. It's eveident we have plenty of depth at the LB position. The Texans probably won't go after any big name FA, especially not Woodson and Abraham. Did yall forget that WOng knows the ILB position and that if there were a change in that group, that would be it. Moving Wong inside in place of Foreman makes sense and playing Peek and Babin on the outside. Why are people so eager to give our "D" a make over?

playoffsin2005
01-13-2005, 10:55 AM
There has got to be some changes made in the front seven. They get no pressure which allows time for opposing QB's to see the field. We gave up alot of passing yards last year and we were terrible getting teams off on third down. I would get Pollack if he there at #13. He tore it up at Georgia and would be a fit opposite Babin. Wong to inside. D-line plays to 2 gap to pick up as much as O-line as possible. All of those other LB's we have bring good depth but they remind me of all those Rockets we have now outside McGrady/Yao. Good but not starters.

Blake
01-13-2005, 11:24 AM
The only changes I see are on the front 3. Smith/Payne/Walker

Lucky
01-13-2005, 11:51 AM
Why are people so eager to give our "D" a make over?
Maybe because the Texans were dead last in QB sacks. And next to last in TD passes allowed & completion %.

MojoX
01-13-2005, 11:55 AM
Hey, will somebody tell me how many other 3-4 teams use the zone blitz scheme? Maybe the Texans could benefit from simplifying things just a tad and letting the OLB do more rushing and less pass covering? What are the advantages of using the zone scheme?

bruenice
01-13-2005, 12:01 PM
I think that the part of the defense that needs to change is some of the scheme. I think that the quote above from ESPN says a lot. In an aggressive blitizing defense, Foley's sack numbers skyrocketed. When we have 3 lineman rushing and maybe one backer coming and everybody else dropping back in coverage, how is anybody going to get any pressure? You could get all the athletes in the world, but if you don't let them do what they are best at, or have 7-8 guys in coverage the number of sacks will continue to stay low. When both Peek and Babin were coming off the edge late in the season you saw the pressure on the quarterback increase. I say keep that up and get more aggressive on the pass rush. Send Dunta more. The few times he was sent on a corner blitz he got right in there. If you send more people at the qb you will see results. There is little to no need to go out and sign a ton of olbs, there is already enough on the current roster. Let the dogs loose and you will see results.

Lucky
01-13-2005, 12:11 PM
Hey, will somebody tell me how many other 3-4 teams use the zone blitz scheme?...What are the advantages of using the zone scheme?
A lot of teams use the zone blitz, not just 34 defenses. The Broncos were caught in a zone blitz last week with a DE covering Dallas Clark. The advantages to the defense are in confusing the blocking scheme and confusing the QB as to what coverage he's seeing. The disadvantage is having a coverage mismatch.

MojoX
01-13-2005, 12:22 PM
A lot of teams use the zone blitz, not just 34 defenses. The Broncos were caught in a zone blitz last week with a DE covering Dallas Clark. The advantages to the defense are in confusing the blocking scheme and confusing the QB as to what coverage he's seeing. The disadvantage is having a coverage mismatch.
Yeah, I am familiar with the zone blitz scheme from the 4-3 set. I was just wondering about 3-4 squads who run it like the Texans. I've read material in which both Bellichick and Capers have said that there isn't a great difference between 34 and 43 zone blitzes. I'm just wondering if the Texans personnel may be better suited for a simpler scheme. Then again, the confusion aspects make it a tough scheme to defeat (when run well) and as the Texans players get better at it, they should get better pass rushes going.

Perhaps a really smart, athletic ILB to go along with Sharper would make the system run better. That should help deal with the coverage mismatch some.

SESupergenius
01-13-2005, 12:23 PM
The Steelers still run the zone blitz and even brought back on its creators, Dick LeBeau. He along with Capers developed the zone blitz introduced to the Steelers' 3-4 alignment, and it became the rage of the 1990s as other teams around the league copied it. Lebeau is one the best defensive coordinators in the league, he makes a great assistant coach, but a terrible head coach. The zone blitz puts pressure on the running game by confusing the blockers to where they need to block and puts pressure on the offensive line to maintain their blocks because they do not know where the blitz is coming and where the coverage is. QB's have a hard time figuring out the soft spots of the ever changing rotation of the zone. A player might be in one spot on one down and in a completely different spot the next, or may be called to blitz.

TexanBacker93
01-13-2005, 12:52 PM
With Payne's injury and the fact that he is an UFA, I would imagine something will be done about that position. Unless the Texans adopt a 4-3 they will need a big run-stuffing NT. There are some quality D-Line in the 1st round of the draft, but they wouldn't be good fits in a 3-4. That will leave a lower pick in the draft or a free agent. I'm guessing a free agent to play in the middle of the line is where they will look.

Personally, I like the LB group. Hopefully Peek can get a lot more field time opposite Babin with Wong moving inside at times. With Anderson, Orr, and Polk there is some depth. I can't see the Texans carrying 9 LBs and with Cheatwood that is what they have. I'd imagine him getting on the practice squad this season.

Please, please, please don't try and bring Charles Woodson here. The Texans have done a great job of bringing in good players that are also good people without all the baggage. Unless I am mistaken Billy Miller is the only Poston client on the roster and I think it's a good number to stick at. They are nothing but trouble for any team and the players rarely live up to the hype.

playoffsin2005
01-13-2005, 01:04 PM
I'm with you on Woodson, but Glenn's man to man cover skills are fading a bit. On third and long, he seems to be the main target instead of Dunta. We saw what Dunta did as a rookie, how about Webster (LSU), Jackson (Mich), or Rogers (Auburn) with the 2nd pick.

Vinny
01-13-2005, 01:24 PM
A few comments on some of this stuff…

Aaron Glenn: I think some of the fans are being a bit tough on Glenn. I think that the Glenn's cover skills are still starting quality and the rule changes just made it harder to play the CB position. Add in the fact that we had the worst pass rush in the NFL last year and the natural result is that you are just going to give up some yardage and TD's. No cornerbacks in the NFL really 'shut-down' anybody last year. Look at Champ Bailey and all the trouble he had. He is considered the most elite corner in the NFL and got lit up all year. He didn't lose a step. He had to fight the new rules just like Glenn did.

Signing Cheatwood: We still need talent at OLB. We will continue to bring in talent every year so the Cheatwood signing is just another sign that we have a top front office and scouting staff. We are taking a look at the leading sack artist in the CFL in Cheatwood. There are 31 other NFL teams that he could have signed with. We got him here. If he pans out it will be a huge signing. If not, we don't lose a pick, just some of Bob's cash.

Inside push. When the defese cannot don't blow up the pocket from the inside it makes it very easy for the Offensive Tackles to block speed rushers. Does anyone notice that the pocket is the safest place for a QB? Once your QB is flushed then it is impossible to keep a offensive lineman between the QB and his pursuer. We had poor inside push from our front 3 last year. Better push = more sacks. Ask David Carr.

Wade Phillips Vs Vic Fangio: Wade Phillips has a scheme that leaves less men in coverage and puts more men in the pass rush. Caper's has stated many times that he is trying to develop a team that brings heat from 4 rushers like the Colts do. Has it been pretty? No, I don't think so because I am fairly confident that we do not have the front 7 that is capable of this kind of set-up in years one though three. We will upgrade our front-7 this off-season and the Cheatwood signing shows me that they are attacking this problem on multiple levels. Once we have a little more talent in our front-7 Caper's may get a rush as good as the Colts get with their 4 rushers and occasional random blitz.

Honoring Earl 34
01-13-2005, 02:05 PM
:howdy: Your choice,you can have Derrick Johnson or Marcus Spears and Cheatwood who do you take?

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
01-13-2005, 02:51 PM
Derrick Johnson

El Tejano
01-13-2005, 02:52 PM
Derrick Johnson. If our defense emphasizes more people in pass coverage, Johnson is perfect for that. Dude can intercept alot more passes than any of the LBs we have.

Honoring Earl 34
01-13-2005, 05:35 PM
I don't know who Cheatwood is except for what I've read .I would not pencil him in.Their just fishing for so why not take a look.
I'd take a player out of college before him.

jacquescas
01-13-2005, 06:22 PM
if Cheatwood was all that, he would have joined another team earlier. He is an interesting prospect, but he is going to have to learn the OLB position after playing DE., there is a learning curve, i think with these type of players you can bring in lots of people cause a small college DE can become a monster linebacker, but you never really know who can adjust so you just bring in lots of cheap players looking for a jackpot...


As far is the D-line... Payne will only be back at a REDUCED salary because he is very damaged goods. Now that we are going into our 4th year, and we have always stated playoffs by year 4, its a real possiblity that a vetran nose tackle could be brought in to fill in for a year while a rookie 2nd or 3rd round pick develops.

Grid
01-13-2005, 07:39 PM
Cheatwood played LB in college.. so it may not be as much of a stretch for him as you think. as for why another team didnt get him earlier.. well he did workout for two other teams first (broncos and someone else).. but the reason he hasnt been taken earlier is because he didnt lead the CFL in sacks until this season.


Am I the only guy who feels we would be squandering DJs talent if we drafted him and put him at ILB? he is fast.. strong around the edges.. and we are gonna throw him in the middle cause he is better in coverage than Foreman? If we drafted DJ we would be better off using him at OLB.. which is why I think we wont draft him unless he falls to us at 13. Even then im not so sure we would... not if we could trade down and get an extra pick and pick up Spears.. who is more of a necessity than Johnson. but then you never know.. Johnson may be the more talented of the two so we may grab him despite the fact that we dont necessarily need an OLB as much as we need other stuff.

Cincinnatikid
01-13-2005, 07:58 PM
How many times do people change their minds around here? Ive said this before. No one is ever happy with anyone on this team, especially OLB. One week its Peek is stupid and cant do anything but pass rush, the next its he should start now or next season. Then they sign one person thats never been heard of and Peek is forgotten or immediately demoted to pass rush situations only again. People need to look at the real problems on this team, and the people that are OLB on this team already are not the problem. The pass rush problem is not the LBs, its the combination of the Dline and the scheme. THe dline is not giving the outside rush any help by taking up blockers or making a threat of a sack from the middle. Then there is the scheme where everyone is dropping back and only 4 people rush. Its hard for 4 guys to beat 5 lineman and a RB that are blocking. Babin and Peek did a great job applying pressure, they just didnt get help from the line or the plays being called. They need to let the two of them rush, along with three in the middle and some extra blitzing from the MLB and corners and safety. This team has good linebackers. Babin-Wong-Sharper-Peek would work if they are giving an opportunity to succeed. There is no need to keep wasting money on signing more OLBs.

Grid
01-13-2005, 08:14 PM
Well the scheme is fine.. once its working it will be fine anyway. we just need the personel to make it work.. and mostly that boils down to the Dline.

keyfro
01-13-2005, 11:35 PM
you know what we already had a guy in here from the cfl and he didn't pan out to well either...that being clemons...there is a reason these guys are playing in the cfl and not the nfl and it's because they are subpar to nfl players...maybe cheatwood is an exception but i'm not betting anything on him...i'd take peek over him any day of the week...as for the above question who would you take dj or spears...you have to go with johnson cause he's a game changer but at some point we have to take care of this line...without the line we could have ray lewis, brian urlacher, zach thomas, and terrell suggs and still never get a sack

Vinny
01-13-2005, 11:41 PM
you know what we already had a guy in here from the cfl and he didn't pan out to well either...that being clemons...there is a reason these guys are playing in the cfl and not the nfl and it's because they are subpar to nfl players...Clemons played with the Saints before he came here. He was with the Rams before that. I don't think he ever played in Canada. There are tons of players who went on to have great NFL careers that started in Canada over the years. Ever hear of guys named Warren Moon, Doug Flutie and Jeff Garcia? Derick Armstrong may ring a bell also.

infantrycak
01-14-2005, 12:30 PM
its a real possiblity that a vetran nose tackle could be brought in to fill in for a year while a rookie 2nd or 3rd round pick develops.

And what veteran FA NT's are out there this off-season?

Am I the only guy who feels we would be squandering DJs talent if we drafted him and put him at ILB? he is fast.. strong around the edges.. and we are gonna throw him in the middle cause he is better in coverage than Foreman? If we drafted DJ we would be better off using him at OLB..

DJ goes 230 lbs--he isn't big enough to play OLB in a 3-4. No, it wouldn't just be because Foreman is worse in coverage although with all the coverage our LB's get that is an excellent reason, it is because Foreman doesn't attack the line of scrimmage well and ends up making his tackles after the RB has gotten a solid gain. In addition, Foreman has 4 forced fumbles and 0 INT's in 6 years in the league. Derrick Johnson on the other hand is a turnover machine. Not saying trade up for him, but if he fell to #13 you snap him up and have him live with Sharper until opening day of the season.

Cincinnatikid
01-14-2005, 01:50 PM
And what veteran FA NT's are out there this off-season?



DJ goes 230 lbs--he isn't big enough to play OLB in a 3-4. No, it wouldn't just be because Foreman is worse in coverage although with all the coverage our LB's get that is an excellent reason, it is because Foreman doesn't attack the line of scrimmage well and ends up making his tackles after the RB has gotten a solid gain. In addition, Foreman has 4 forced fumbles and 0 INT's in 6 years in the league. Derrick Johnson on the other hand is a turnover machine. Not saying trade up for him, but if he fell to #13 you snap him up and have him live with Sharper until opening day of the season.


Yes. We need a ILB, not OLB. He would be a great pickup for the team. THat way you have 5 LBs that play all the time (substitution will keep them fresh). You let Wong start inside, DJ plays a lot inside as well for Wong. THen you have wong able to move outside to give peek or babin a rest. Its amazing. Then the LBs would be much more fresh for the pass rush when you actually get a rotation. However, who knows what will happen.