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View Full Version : Cap implications if we sign a big name free agent


gtexan02
02-11-2009, 07:25 PM
This isn't taking into consideration the ramifications of the uncapped year in 2010, because I'm not sure how teams are allowed to allocate bonuses/salaries for that year. Im sure there are plenty of rules, so I'm just going to assume its business as normal.

Lets assume that Julius Peppers walks into the Texans FO and says "I want to sign with you guys, but only if you make me the NFLs highest paid defensive player." What would this do to our team?

Inthebullseye.com reports that the Texans are currently ~$38 million and change under the cap (if you include the recent savings of ~9 million from cutting Green/Greenwood). I fully expect us to get rid of Demps and Chris Brown, freeing up just under ~4 million more in cap space. This should bring our total to around ~42 million or so.

The important free agents we have this year are Dunta Robinson (UFA) and Owen Daniels (RFA).
Next year, we will have Chester Pitts, Kevin Walter, Kris Brown, and Demeco Ryans.

We also have to remember that we only have around 40 players actively signed and need money for draft picks. So in reality, while we have a lot of cap space at the moment, our "useable" cap space is probably closer to about 20-25 million.

Now what about Peppers? Last year the Vikings gave Jared Allen a 6 year, 74 million dollar deal with 31 million guaranteed. Allen's cap hit this year was about 12 million dollars. Assuming Peppers wants at least what Allen got plus 5%, that means he is probably targeting a 6 year, 78 million dollar deal with about 33 million in guarantees. That would bring his cap hit to 13 million per season. Signing just Peppers would effectively reduce our useable cap to about half, making it extremely difficult to franchise tag a guy like Dunta Robinson.

Just something to think about

TEXANRED
02-11-2009, 07:35 PM
This isn't taking into consideration the ramifications of the uncapped year in 2010, because I'm not sure how teams are allowed to allocate bonuses/salaries for that year. Im sure there are plenty of rules, so I'm just going to assume its business as normal.

Lets assume that Julius Peppers walks into the Texans FO and says "I want to sign with you guys, but only if you make me the NFLs highest paid defensive player." What would this do to our team?

Inthebullseye.com reports that the Texans are currently ~$38 million and change under the cap (if you include the recent savings of ~9 million from cutting Green/Greenwood). I fully expect us to get rid of Demps and Chris Brown, freeing up just under ~4 million more in cap space. This should bring our total to around ~42 million or so.

The important free agents we have this year are Dunta Robinson (UFA) and Owen Daniels (RFA).
Next year, we will have Chester Pitts, Kevin Walter, Kris Brown, and Demeco Ryans.

We also have to remember that we only have around 40 players actively signed and need money for draft picks. So in reality, while we have a lot of cap space at the moment, our "useable" cap space is probably closer to about 20-25 million.

Now what about Peppers? Last year the Vikings gave Jared Allen a 6 year, 74 million dollar deal with 31 million guaranteed. Allen's cap hit this year was about 12 million dollars. Assuming Peppers wants at least what Allen got plus 5%, that means he is probably targeting a 6 year, 78 million dollar deal with about 33 million in guarantees. That would bring his cap hit to 13 million per season. Signing just Peppers would effectively reduce our useable cap to about half, making it extremely difficult to franchise tag a guy like Dunta Robinson.

Just something to think about
Thats why you front load the contract, pay him 15 million this year and be halfway over the guarantee money the first year. That way when we cut him in three years to resign Williams we wont take such a big cap hit.

It would be worth it to not only win the division but a few championships along the way.

TheRealJoker
02-11-2009, 07:37 PM
If you take into account signing Peppers means you also more than likely just traded your 1st round pick for him you have to subtract the cap hit of the # 15 pick from Peppers' cap hit. "Lessening" the blow but point taken, any big splash signing pretty much means we're sacrificing depth for 1 player. A very dangerous proposition in the NFL where 1 injury can make you go from playoff team back to 8-8 team (in this case if Peppers were to get injured).

gtexan02
02-11-2009, 07:38 PM
Thats why you front load the contract, pay him 15 million this year and be halfway over the guarantee money the first year. That way when we cut him in three years to resign Williams we wont take such a big cap hit.

It would be worth it to not only win the division but a few championships along the way.

Front load half the signing bonus this season? If he's expected to be paid 7.5 million in salary per year and you allocate 15 million of the guarantees to this season his cap number becomes an astronomical 22.5 million. That would basically prevent us from signing any other free agents this offseason. The cap goes up a pretty decent amount each offseason, so it might be better to backload the salary whiel frontloading the bonus. Most players won't sign onto that though

TheRealJoker
02-11-2009, 07:41 PM
Thats why you front load the contract, pay him 15 million this year and be halfway over the guarantee money the first year. That way when we cut him in three years to resign Williams we wont take such a big cap hit.

It would be worth it to not only win the division but a few championships along the way.

That would be a pretty tall order considering the Panthers have won 0 championships with Peppers.

If we actually did win a few championships while he was here that would lead me to believe it was more than just one player's doing...

TEXANRED
02-11-2009, 07:41 PM
Front load half the signing bonus this season? If he's expected to be paid 7.5 million in salary per year and you allocate 15 million of the guarantees to this season his cap number becomes an astronomical 22.5 million. That would basically prevent us from signing any other free agents this offseason. The cap goes up a pretty decent amount each offseason, so it might be better to backload the salary whiel frontloading the bonus. Most players won't sign onto that though

I may be missing the math but if I only guarantee 30 and I pay him 15 where does the 7.5 come from?

TEXANRED
02-11-2009, 07:42 PM
Thats why you front load the contract, pay him 15 million this year and be halfway over the guarantee money the first year. That way when we cut him in three years to resign Williams we wont take such a big cap hit.

It would be worth it to not only win the division but a few championships along the way.

That would be a pretty tall order considering the Panthers have won 0 championships with Peppers.

If we actually did win a few championships while he was here that would lead me to believe it was more than just one player's doing...

Two words for that reason, Jake Delhome.

Steve Smith has done a good job of making him look credible for years.

gtexan02
02-11-2009, 07:44 PM
I may be missing the math but if I only guarantee 30 and I pay him 15 where does the 7.5 come from?

In my example Peppers would be signing a 78 million dollar deal, with 33 guaranteed.

That would mean each season if it was divided equally, he would get a base salary of 7.5 million and a bonus allocation of 5.5 million. His total cap hit each season would therefore be 13 million. You could front-load it with a higher portion of the bonus being paid in the first couple years, but that would make it pretty difficult for us to keep even some of our current players

TEXANRED
02-11-2009, 08:12 PM
In my example Peppers would be signing a 78 million dollar deal, with 33 guaranteed.

That would mean each season if it was divided equally, he would get a base salary of 7.5 million and a bonus allocation of 5.5 million. His total cap hit each season would therefore be 13 million. You could front-load it with a higher portion of the bonus being paid in the first couple years, but that would make it pretty difficult for us to keep even some of our current players

There is nothing in the rule books about dividing his salary equally. They could pay him a base salary of 1 million and then 15 of his 33 signing bonus. At the end of the day the only thing the Texans are liable for is the 30 million.

gtexan02
02-11-2009, 08:27 PM
There is nothing in the rule books about dividing his salary equally. They could pay him a base salary of 1 million and then 15 of his 33 signing bonus. At the end of the day the only thing the Texans are liable for is the 30 million.

I realize this, but NFL players and their agents are pretty intelligent, and they aren't going to sign on to a deal that prorates the entire signing bonus to the first 2 years and all the salary to the last 2 years. Its basically guaranteeing that they only see a portion of their total contract

TEXANRED
02-11-2009, 08:38 PM
I realize this, but NFL players and their agents are pretty intelligent, and they aren't going to sign on to a deal that prorates the entire signing bonus to the first 2 years and all the salary to the last 2 years. Its basically guaranteeing that they only see a portion of their total contract

I know, I was just using that as an example of front loading.

I would expect to see something similar to Green's original structured contract. He got most of his guaranteed money up front.

I would expect the Texans to be able to pay out 13 million over the next 3 years and then break up the rest of his bonus over a two years like the rest of our over priced FA's.

So realistically we could pay him a base of 7 and his bonus of six over three years and then pay out 6 million a year after he is cut.

infantrycak
02-11-2009, 09:15 PM
In my example Peppers would be signing a 78 million dollar deal, with 33 guaranteed.

That would mean each season if it was divided equally, he would get a base salary of 7.5 million and a bonus allocation of 5.5 million. His total cap hit each season would therefore be 13 million. You could front-load it with a higher portion of the bonus being paid in the first couple years, but that would make it pretty difficult for us to keep even some of our current players

I realize this, but NFL players and their agents are pretty intelligent, and they aren't going to sign on to a deal that prorates the entire signing bonus to the first 2 years and all the salary to the last 2 years. Its basically guaranteeing that they only see a portion of their total contract

Actually that is not uncommon at all. In fact there have been quite a few players who have signed with first year base salaries at basically league minimum because they are also receiving their signing bonus. The guaranteed money seems to be more important to the players than the total of the contract or playing the whole thing out.

ChampionTexan
02-11-2009, 09:34 PM
Actually that is not uncommon at all. In fact there have been quite a few players who have signed with first year base salaries at basically league minimum because they are also receiving their signing bonus. The guaranteed money seems to be more important to the players than the total of the contract or playing the whole thing out.

Yep, and Jared Allen is one of those examples. If you look at his '08 numbers, his base salary is only $750,000, but he also received approx. $20.5 Million in bonus payments, with more guaranteed money to be paid in the future.

I don't know if it's possible to calculate salary cap impact based on the information that's available, and even the best sources (such as ITBE) include a disclaimer of accuracy. For example, the original poster included a '08 salary cap impact of $12 Million for Jared Allen's contract. I'm not sure where he's getting that, but I see other places that show an $8 Million impact, and I'm not sure which is correct, or if there's any definitive way to find out. If the $12 Million is just taking the $74 Million contract and dividing by 6 years, then I know it's not accurate.

gtexan02
02-11-2009, 09:48 PM
Yep, and Jared Allen is one of those examples. If you look at his '08 numbers, his base salary is only $750,000, but he also received approx. $20.5 Million in bonus payments, with more guaranteed money to be paid in the future.

I don't know if it's possible to calculate salary cap impact based on the information that's available, and even the best sources (such as ITBE) include a disclaimer of accuracy. For example, the original poster included a '08 salary cap impact of $12 Million for Jared Allen's contract. I'm not sure where he's getting that, but I see other places that show an $8 Million impact, and I'm not sure which is correct, or if there's any definitive way to find out. If the $12 Million is just taking the $74 Million contract and dividing by 6 years, then I know it's not accurate.

Heres where I saw the 12 million figure:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nfcwest/0-8-88/What-cap-space-means-in-NFC-West.html

We could deduce as much from considering the 2009 salary-cap charges associated with the highest-paid players at defensive end (Jared Allen, $11.45 million)

ChampionTexan
02-11-2009, 10:13 PM
Heres where I saw the 12 million figure:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nfcwest/0-8-88/What-cap-space-means-in-NFC-West.html

And here's where I got my $8 Million.

Jared Allen (http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playerdetail.aspx?lname=Allen&player=3242)

I can come close to the USA Today number, but I can't get it exactly. The fact I can't re-create their calculation doesn't mean it's wrong, and if I were able to re-create their calculation, that wouldn't mean it's correct.

There's enough ways to structure a contract that length, total value, and guaranteed money just doesn't give you enough information to definitively know the salary cap impact (or necessarily even make a good ballpark guess). That's why I think Anthony Weaver's got more unamortized bonus on his contract than $5.4 Million, but I don't know that for certain.

infantrycak
02-12-2009, 08:42 AM
Yep, and Jared Allen is one of those examples. If you look at his '08 numbers, his base salary is only $750,000, but he also received approx. $20.5 Million in bonus payments, with more guaranteed money to be paid in the future.

I don't know if it's possible to calculate salary cap impact based on the information that's available, and even the best sources (such as ITBE) include a disclaimer of accuracy. For example, the original poster included a '08 salary cap impact of $12 Million for Jared Allen's contract. I'm not sure where he's getting that, but I see other places that show an $8 Million impact, and I'm not sure which is correct, or if there's any definitive way to find out. If the $12 Million is just taking the $74 Million contract and dividing by 6 years, then I know it's not accurate.

It is hard to get exact cap numbers because of all the various bonuses they throw out there for work-outs, LTBE, ULTBE, etc. One of the big spots folks miss things is like on Antoine Winfield's contract. The year he was signed the Vikings had a ton of cap room so they used a roster bonus for the 2nd day of the contract instead of a signing bonus. That made it all go on that year's cap but obviously that reduced the effect on later years--great move if you have the cap room to do it. Lot's of folks just assume the guaranteed money is signing bonus and pro-rate it.

Polo
02-12-2009, 08:51 AM
I think if the Texans wanted to sign Peppers they could make it happen without sacraficing too much depth or young talent.

If the Vikes could get Jared Allen we should be able to get Peppers.

Maddict5
02-12-2009, 09:04 AM
If you take into account signing Peppers means you also more than likely just traded your 1st round pick for him


hes a FA who's unlikely to be franchised

WolverineFan
02-12-2009, 11:28 AM
The problem with frontloading a contract is if the guy performs very well in year 2 or 3 he will want to restructure his deal to make more money in those years. It's always an endless cycle with contracts.

leebigeztx
02-12-2009, 10:01 PM
I'm not going to try to dispute the numbers so I well say what I know. The panthers can not nor will not franchise peppers. If they franchise Peppers to the tune of 17m which is over 1m per a game plus that kills them resigning Gross plus they are 7m over meanin they have to cut players just to franchise tag Peppers.

The rookie pool of money is only about 3m of the cap. Daunte, if they franchise tag him would cost 9m this year, but can be reduced if they strike a deal. So even if they franchised Robinson and made Peppers or Hanesworth 11m per players, they would still have 20m to give extensions to players. A te like OD will cost about 5mm in acap space, walters 4m and ryans about 4m which leaves about 7m. They can also cut weaver and get more money under the cap.

barrett
02-13-2009, 04:09 AM
It's pretty much a moot point regardless because the Texans are not in the business of signing the type of free agent yall are debating. They believe in building through the draft and suplementing through free agency. They're not going to break the bank on anybody with a big name.

bigbrewster2000
02-13-2009, 07:23 AM
I realize this, but NFL players and their agents are pretty intelligent, and they aren't going to sign on to a deal that prorates the entire signing bonus to the first 2 years and all the salary to the last 2 years. Its basically guaranteeing that they only see a portion of their total contract

You say that yet Nate Clements did it and most of Ahman's bonus was front loaded as well.

Norg
02-13-2009, 10:53 PM
i dont think we will get peppers

WHen have we ever !!!!!!! signed a Mega star FA

besides are we really going 2 spend that much on a 30 year old DE

But Mario&Peppers Dream team that would obvs makes us a team ... man that would make us pretty damm scary

The Pencil Neck
02-14-2009, 12:08 AM
i dont think we will get peppers

WHen have we ever !!!!!!! signed a Mega star FA

besides are we really going 2 spend that much on a 30 year old DE

But Mario&Peppers Dream team that would obvs makes us a team ... man that would make us pretty damm scary

I would almost guarantee that we won't get Peppers. First, I don't think he wants to come here. Second, I don't think that Carolina's going to let him go easily. Third, I don't think our FO wants to ruin our salary cap by spending that much money.

But... about free agency...

Ahman Green is a 4 time pro-bowler and the year of his signing, was considered one of (if not THE) top free agent running backs on the market. There was a question about Ahman Green's age and health but the other top FA guys all had serious question marks, too.

And although not a free agent acquisition, Matt Schaub was a very highly prized QB. Lots of teams wanted Schaub and made offers to the Falcons for him. We were the team that were able to put together a deal and get him.

I won't put it past this FO to make gutsy personnel moves. I just don't think the Peppers move makes sense for anyone.

barrett
02-14-2009, 03:15 AM
Even though I stated earlier that I don't think the Texans will spend big money on a FA, I just read on nfl.com that Nnamdi Asomugha reportedly cleaned out his locker at the end of the season. That sounds like a guy who had no intention of returning next year. In the same paragraph, NFL.com's Pat Kirwan mentions that Franchising Asomugha would blow out Oaklands cap. Therefore they may not get to keep him. Not sure what that means to us. In my opinion it means nothing unless Houston can't work out a deal with Dunta and decide even though they can't come to terms with him it would be worth it to go for it all with the best CB in the game. I don't see that happening but for you guys that seem to think it's worth talking about... here's your kindling.

Cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha was an exclusive franchise player last year at $9.765 million. He reportedly cleaned out his locker at the end of the season, and now the Raiders have to use an $11.7 million tag to keep him, which blows out their salary cap. They may resort to keeping punter Shane Lechler on a franchise tag at $2.48 million. The Raiders have well over $34 million in roster bonuses due to players this offseason, so cash will be tight.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80eba064&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

mussop
02-14-2009, 04:31 AM
I think if the Texans wanted to sign Peppers they could make it happen without sacraficing too much depth or young talent.

If the Vikes could get Jared Allen we should be able to get Peppers.

I dont keep up with the cap, Im a draft junkie so I dont have time. But I agree with Polo here. How do other teams sign these guys every year with far less money cap wise than what we currently have and not destroy there caps? If we want a top player we can find away to make it happen. Im still going to be dissapointed if we dont make a run at Haynesworth.

b0ng
02-14-2009, 07:52 AM
Even though I stated earlier that I don't think the Texans will spend big money on a FA, I just read on nfl.com that Nnamdi Asomugha reportedly cleaned out his locker at the end of the season. That sounds like a guy who had no intention of returning next year. In the same paragraph, NFL.com's Pat Kirwan mentions that Franchising Asomugha would blow out Oaklands cap. Therefore they may not get to keep him. Not sure what that means to us. In my opinion it means nothing unless Houston can't work out a deal with Dunta and decide even though they can't come to terms with him it would be worth it to go for it all with the best CB in the game. I don't see that happening but for you guys that seem to think it's worth talking about... here's your kindling.



http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80eba064&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

This is Al Davis were talking about. It's also been said by multiple sources that Aso is practically franchised already. He can cut loads of dead weight to keep him (he's crazy)

wags
02-14-2009, 09:23 AM
This is Al Davis were talking about. It's also been said by multiple sources that Aso is practically franchised already. He can cut loads of dead weight to keep him (he's crazy)

I agree the Raiders are not letting him go.

Raiders | Asomugha believes he probably will be franchised
Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:55:24 -0800

Bill Williamson, of ESPN.com, reports Oakland Raiders CB Nnamdi Asomugha, who is an impending free agent, said he probably will receive the franchise tag this offseason.

http://kffl.com


The Raiders have said that they will use the franchise tag on Nnamdi Asomugha, but must do it before Feb. 19. Asomugha figures that he will have to wait until the last minute, just like last year.

“Last year, Al (Davis) called me the day before just to let me know he’s going to do it, and then they waited until the very last possible second,” Asomugha said Wednesday. “I don’t know how they’ll do it this year, but the expectation from my agent is that the tag will happen.”

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/02/12/raiders-expected-to-lock-up-secondary/

The Pencil Neck
02-14-2009, 10:38 AM
I dont keep up with the cap, Im a draft junkie so I dont have time. But I agree with Polo here. How do other teams sign these guys every year with far less money cap wise than what we currently have and not destroy there caps? If we want a top player we can find away to make it happen. Im still going to be dissapointed if we dont make a run at Haynesworth.

Which teams are you talking about that do this every year? The Redskins? The Cowboys?

Last year, the Jets were very active in free agency. They were supposed to be set to be winners even before getting Brett Favre. It cost their coach his job when he didn't win more even though he had a pretty OK year. And now, I believe, they're in cap hell and could be for a few years. But that was just one year of being active in free agency, not multiple years.

It is pretty amazing the talent that the Cowboys have put together but some of those guys are cheaper than they normally would have been because of their character issues. And they still let people go to make room.

The Redskins have been a little more quiet the past couple of years, right? Snyder's strategies of putting a team together using money as leverage haven't seemed to work.

Besides the Redskins and Cowboys, I can't really think of a team that's consistently active in free agency. I'm not saying it's not the case, I'm just getting old and my memory isn't what it used to be.

dalemurphy
02-14-2009, 11:47 AM
Which teams are you talking about that do this every year? The Redskins? The Cowboys?

Last year, the Jets were very active in free agency. They were supposed to be set to be winners even before getting Brett Favre. It cost their coach his job when he didn't win more even though he had a pretty OK year. And now, I believe, they're in cap hell and could be for a few years. But that was just one year of being active in free agency, not multiple years.

It is pretty amazing the talent that the Cowboys have put together but some of those guys are cheaper than they normally would have been because of their character issues. And they still let people go to make room.

The Redskins have been a little more quiet the past couple of years, right? Snyder's strategies of putting a team together using money as leverage haven't seemed to work.

Besides the Redskins and Cowboys, I can't really think of a team that's consistently active in free agency. I'm not saying it's not the case, I'm just getting old and my memory isn't what it used to be.


You're right, all the best NFL organizations do relatively little in free agency:

New England
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia

are the three best organizations over the last decade. All of them, focus on the draft and seldom spend top dollar on free agents.

steelbtexan
02-14-2009, 01:49 PM
You're right, all the best NFL organizations do relatively little in free agency:

New England
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia

are the three best organizations over the last decade. All of them, focus on the draft and seldom spend top dollar on free agents.

Didn't New England trade for Randy Moss &give him a big contract extension? They also signed the no.1 rated DE/LB in last year A. Thomas.

Philly did sign A. Samuel to the largest contract ever signed for a CB?

You have to take calculated risks in FA along with drafting well to be a sucessful franchise.

Uncle Bob is unwilling to take these risks after the Casserly era.

With todays economy I cant say that I blame him, but unless Smithiak pulls several rabbits out of their hats the Texans are going to be a 6-10 to 10-6 type franchise. Not one of the top NFL teams. I believe Texans fans deserve better than this.

Come on Uncle Bob spend the money.

ChampionTexan
02-14-2009, 02:02 PM
Didn't New England trade for Randy Moss &give him a big contract extension? They also signed the no.1 rated DE/LB in last year A. Thomas.

Philly did sign A. Samuel to the largest contract ever signed for a CB?

You have to take calculated risks in FA along with drafting well to be a sucessful franchise.

Uncle Bob is unwilling to take these risks after the Casserly era.

With todays economy I cant say that I blame him, but unless Smithiak pulls several rabbits out of their hats the Texans are going to be a 6-10 to 10-6 type franchise. Not one of the top NFL teams. I believe Texans fans deserve better than this.

Come on Uncle Bob spend the money.

I'd throw Indy in the mix as one of the better teams in the league who typically does little to nothing in free agency. The Giants might also belong in that group too.

The bottom line is when you look at the Super Bowl winners over the last several years, free agency had an incredibly small impact on the success of the winners (and remember, New England's three Super Bowl wins all came well before the trade/free agency activity mentioned above).

Mailman
02-14-2009, 02:11 PM
I'd throw Indy in the mix as one of the better teams in the league who typically does little to nothing in free agency. The Giants might also belong in that group too.

The bottom line is when you look at the Super Bowl winners over the last several years, free agency had an incredibly small impact on the success of the winners (and remember, New England's three Super Bowl wins all came well before the trade/free agency activity mentioned above).

Plaxico Burress?

ChampionTexan
02-14-2009, 02:22 PM
Plaxico Burress?

Arguably, and that's one of, if not the best example of a FA having an impact on a SB winning team (which kind of proves the point). Even with Burress, it was his third year with the Giants when they won it, so it's not like he was the final piece of the puzzle.

steelbtexan
02-14-2009, 02:47 PM
Antonio Pearce?

Mailman
02-14-2009, 02:51 PM
Antonio Pearce?

Yep, they signed him in the same offseason.

dalemurphy
02-14-2009, 02:57 PM
Didn't New England trade for Randy Moss &give him a big contract extension? They also signed the no.1 rated DE/LB in last year A. Thomas.

Philly did sign A. Samuel to the largest contract ever signed for a CB?

You have to take calculated risks in FA along with drafting well to be a sucessful franchise.

Uncle Bob is unwilling to take these risks after the Casserly era.

With todays economy I cant say that I blame him, but unless Smithiak pulls several rabbits out of their hats the Texans are going to be a 6-10 to 10-6 type franchise. Not one of the top NFL teams. I believe Texans fans deserve better than this.


They traded a 4th for Moss and gave him a short but significant contract extension. We give big contract extensions also. We've given huge contracts and extensions to Mario, Andre, and we traded and gave a big contract to MSchaub. The point is, fans want the Texans to outbid the entire NFL for these top FAs. That is something that good organizations very rarely do because it usually is a bad idea.

ChampionTexan
02-14-2009, 02:57 PM
Antonio Pearce?

Depends on what you consider a high profile signing. Pierce came to the Giants after being a full-time starter for only one season, and signed a contract that was one year longer than the one Weaver signed for the same money, and about 1/2 the signing bonus.

infantrycak
02-14-2009, 04:01 PM
Plaxico Burress?

Plax was considered an underachieving pain in the posterior, not a big name free agent.

Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/13/sports/football/13giants.html)

TexansFan33
02-14-2009, 04:44 PM
What do yall think about goin after a guy like Sean Jones saftey from Cleveland Browns he's 6-1 220 and has put up some decent numbers these last couple of years and he is a ball hawk(14 int 3 years 2006-2008) he could bring a real boost to the secondary...:texflag:

dalemurphy
02-14-2009, 06:01 PM
What do yall think about goin after a guy like Sean Jones saftey from Cleveland Browns he's 6-1 220 and has put up some decent numbers these last couple of years and he is a ball hawk(14 int 3 years 2006-2008) he could bring a real boost to the secondary...:texflag:

I love him as a player and would love for us to go after him. He's not great in coverage but is a definite playmaker. He reminds me a lot of Adrian Wilson.

Kaiser Toro
02-14-2009, 06:51 PM
snippet:
"If they decide to use the tag on me, the first thing that I'll be doing is requesting a trade," Peppers said Saturday. "Then anything after, basically I don't know what would be the course of action. We'll deal with that when that time comes."

In a conference call with reporters -- Peppers' first extended interview since his agent announced last month he wouldn't sign a long-term deal with the Panthers -- Peppers focused on his desire to leave coach John Fox's 4-3 defensive system to play outside linebacker in a 3-4 scheme.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3907659

b0ng
02-14-2009, 06:53 PM
snippet:


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3907659

There's something wrong with that guy. The more he talks to the media the less I want him here for any amount of money.

leebigeztx
02-14-2009, 07:22 PM
The good franchises build thru the draft and supplement through free agency. The better u draft, the less u do in fa. The eagles were brought up and that's what they do. When they want a big name, they go get them. Kearse,howard,runyan,samuels to name a few.

The texans are too close to go backwards. They're 1 impact defender away from maybe winning the division. Is 1 player worth 4 wins? No, but Haynsworth or Peppers will elevate everything the texans are trying to do. Albert is a double win because its a division rival. You put him in he middle between okoye and mario and now the secondary is better. They need a playmaker asap on that side.

dalemurphy
02-14-2009, 07:29 PM
The good franchises build thru the draft and supplement through free agency. The better u draft, the less u do in fa. The eagles were brought up and that's what they do. When they want a big name, they go get them. Kearse,howard,runyan,samuels to name a few.

The texans are too close to go backwards. They're 1 impact defender away from maybe winning the division. Is 1 player worth 4 wins? No, but Haynsworth or Peppers will elevate everything the texans are trying to do. Albert is a double win because its a division rival. You put him in he middle between okoye and mario and now the secondary is better. They need a playmaker asap on that side.

First, both of those guys are somewhat likely to underperform once they get their $30 million bonus. Second, if this team is putting together something special, then a contract that will disrupt the future of Mario, Dunta, Demeco, Schaub, etc... is dangerous. Moves like these always have to be made with an eye 2 and 3 years down the road.

I'm not saying they shouldn't go after one of them. Maybe they will and maybe it would be good. However, it is rare that the elite free agent contracts end up working out and that is something to beware of.

BullBlitz
02-14-2009, 07:34 PM
It's pretty much a moot point regardless because the Texans are not in the business of signing the type of free agent yall are debating. They believe in building through the draft and suplementing through free agency. They're not going to break the bank on anybody with a big name.

Bingo. I'll believe the Texans will sign a high-priced, big name free agent when I see it. In 7 seasons, it hasn't happened yet. Peppers will get a good deal. But it won't be here.

Mailman
02-15-2009, 12:57 PM
I'm as skeptical as anyone at the thought of the Texans cannonballing the free agency pool this year, but the Schaub trade (as others have pointed out) sorta blows apart the idea that Smithiak won't seriously consider it.

With all the negativity about throwing big $$ at a high profile FA, it's worth mentioning FA signings/trades over the last three years that have been impactful--Drew Brees, John Abraham, Jared Allen, Samari Rolle, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens (yes i know), Michael Turner, Asante Samuel, Jevon Kearse, Patrick Kerney, Eric Steinbach, and Steve Hutchinson. Not to mention the impact FA who signed with their same teams.

If by some off chance the Panthers don't tag him, Julius Peppers would be worth the fat contract to get him in a Texans uniform.

b0ng
02-15-2009, 01:10 PM
If by some off chance the Panthers don't tag him, Julius Peppers would be worth the fat contract to get him in a Texans uniform.

These are some quotes from Peppers over the past week or so:

He also understands there are legions of fans throughout his native land wearing his jersey, and he begged for their understanding as well.

“Put yourself in my shoes, instead of being emotional about it,” he said.


"When I say reaching my potential that is not a slight against coach Fox and his system," Peppers said. "I enjoyed playing in his system and I excelled in it. I’ve produced for the most part my whole career. When I say I want to reach my potential that's a personal thing. I’m not trying to blame coach Fox or any other coach I have worked with. Basically I have personal standards and personal goals.

"I’m the only one who truly knows the ability that I have and I feel like it could be maximized and I could be even more productive in a new system. I feel like I have come close to maxing out in the system that I have been in.”

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I would really hate to give that guy a huge fat salary cap busting contract to have him turn around and have some seasons like his 2007 campaign. There's just too many things going on with Peppers talking to the media that is making me question whether he wants to win, or rack up stats or something.

awtysst
02-15-2009, 01:14 PM
First, both of those guys are somewhat likely to underperform once they get their $30 million bonus. Second, if this team is putting together something special, then a contract that will disrupt the future of Mario, Dunta, Demeco, Schaub, etc... is dangerous. Moves like these always have to be made with an eye 2 and 3 years down the road.

I'm not saying they shouldn't go after one of them. Maybe they will and maybe it would be good. However, it is rare that the elite free agent contracts end up working out and that is something to beware of.

Sure, but that uncapped year is coming up. What if the Texans give Fat Albert a contract with say $30 mill guaranteed over a 6 year contract(Allen got 6 years 31 mill last year from the Vikings, so this is a possible figure). Then we load up on the uncapped year and pay him 15 mill for the uncapped year. That way the rest of the contract will spread that 15 mill over the remaining 5 years. In that scenario we would really only pay him 3 mill guaranteed over the next 5. He would probably love this deal because it gives me a big chunk of guaranteed money and it gives it to him now. It helps the Texans because after that uncapped year, we are only paying him 3 mill a year(at worst if he doesn't pan out) and would pay more if he plays better and thus helps the team.

Thoughts?

b0ng
02-15-2009, 01:17 PM
Sure, but that uncapped year is coming up. What if the Texans give Fat Albert a contract with say $30 mill guaranteed over a 6 year contract(Allen got 6 years 31 mill last year from the Vikings, so this is a possible figure). Then we load up on the uncapped year and pay him 15 mill for the uncapped year. That way the rest of the contract will spread that 15 mill over the remaining 5 years. In that scenario we would really only pay him 3 mill guaranteed over the next 5. He would probably love this deal because it gives me a big chunk of guaranteed money and it gives it to him now. It helps the Texans because after that uncapped year, we are only paying him 3 mill a year(at worst if he doesn't pan out) and would pay more if he plays better and thus helps the team.

Thoughts?

The problem is we don't know if 2010 will be uncapped yet. If they get a labor deal worked out then we're pretty much on the hook for Haynesworth no matter how he performs for a good while.

Free Agency is going to be weird this year.

dalemurphy
02-15-2009, 01:28 PM
I'm as skeptical as anyone at the thought of the Texans cannonballing the free agency pool this year, but the Schaub trade (as others have pointed out) sorta blows apart the idea that Smithiak won't seriously consider it.

With all the negativity about throwing big $$ at a high profile FA, it's worth mentioning FA signings/trades over the last three years that have been impactful--Drew Brees, John Abraham, Jared Allen, Samari Rolle, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens (yes i know), Michael Turner, Asante Samuel, Jevon Kearse, Patrick Kerney, Eric Steinbach, and Steve Hutchinson. Not to mention the impact FA who signed with their same teams.

If by some off chance the Panthers don't tag him, Julius Peppers would be worth the fat contract to get him in a Texans uniform.


This is the problem with your argument. You don't even know what the cost would be yet you are will to say that it would be worth it. A good organization doesn't have the luxury of that kind of lack of prudence.

dalemurphy
02-15-2009, 01:30 PM
Sure, but that uncapped year is coming up. What if the Texans give Fat Albert a contract with say $30 mill guaranteed over a 6 year contract(Allen got 6 years 31 mill last year from the Vikings, so this is a possible figure). Then we load up on the uncapped year and pay him 15 mill for the uncapped year. That way the rest of the contract will spread that 15 mill over the remaining 5 years. In that scenario we would really only pay him 3 mill guaranteed over the next 5. He would probably love this deal because it gives me a big chunk of guaranteed money and it gives it to him now. It helps the Texans because after that uncapped year, we are only paying him 3 mill a year(at worst if he doesn't pan out) and would pay more if he plays better and thus helps the team.

Thoughts?

There are also rules about how contracts can be structured. You simply can't give a player a tiny salary one year and then a huge salary the next. There is a scale that has to be followed.

Mailman
02-15-2009, 01:32 PM
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I would really hate to give that guy a huge fat salary cap busting contract to have him turn around and have some seasons like his 2007 campaign. There's just too many things going on with Peppers talking to the media that is making me question whether he wants to win, or rack up stats or something.

He does seem like a bit of a headcase, but his career numbers show that he's a proven producer at DE. I think he just wants a change. Maybe it's the Panthers coaching staff, maybe it's his discomfort being a blue whale in a Carolina stockpond...who knows what's in his head? I trust that the front office would do its DD on any potential personality and motivational issues before making such a giant investment in him.

Norg
02-15-2009, 03:15 PM
i know we are pretty secure at the QB Position and will prob re sign Sage

but if we dont and cant trust Nall

David carr is a FA this year and if we could get him for cheap would yall want to get him to backup Matt ???????????? LOL

Iam pretty sure he knows the system

steelbtexan
02-15-2009, 03:29 PM
There are also rules about how contracts can be structured. You simply can't give a player a tiny salary one year and then a huge salary the next. There is a scale that has to be followed.

Tell me more about the rules of how contracts can be structured.

I think that after the CBA expires you can structure a contract anyway the team wants. Until a new CBA is signed.

The way FA contracts are structured will be very interesting this offseason.

ChampionTexan
02-15-2009, 04:11 PM
Tell me more about the rules of how contracts can be structured.

I think that after the CBA expires you can structure a contract anyway the team wants. Until a new CBA is signed.

The way FA contracts are structured will be very interesting this offseason.

Actually, the existing CBA doesn't expire until after the 2010 season (assuming no extension is agreed to in the meantime.), so that means that any contract signed this offseason would be under the rules of the existing CBA for at least the 2009 and 2010 seasons. One of those rules precludes more than a 30% increase in salary from one year to the next

The 30% increase rule restricts salary increases from 2009 to 2010. For example: a player with a $500,000 Salary in 2009 would be limited to annual salary increases of $150,000 ($500,000 x 30%) beginning in 2010.

LINK (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/10847836)

This would preclude dumping the $15 Million in 2010, not because of any restrictions on salary structure that may exist after the expiration of the CBA, but rather because in 2010, the existing CBA (and it's existing restrictions) will still be in force.

The Pencil Neck
02-15-2009, 05:14 PM
David carr is a FA this year and if we could get him for cheap would yall want to get him to backup Matt ???????????? LOL

Iam pretty sure he knows the system

I think Carr has already re-signed with the Giants.

Hervoyel
02-15-2009, 06:45 PM
The Texans haven't signed a big name free agent in like.... "ever" but it hasn't necessarily been something they've completely shunned. We tried to take Orlando Pace away from the Rams a few years ago if all of you remember and we have talked with more than one "name" player. We traded a pair of 2's for Schaub and we didn't do that in a vacuum. Other teams knew who Matt Schaub was and other teams had high regard for his potential.

The idea that the Texans won't go after a high profile player is too simplistic just like the idea that Kubiak won't draft a RB in the first round or on the first day (he tried to do that the first year he was here). It's not carved in stone and sooner or later the team is going to see someone available out there that they absolutely must have. When that happens I think they'll do it and I think they'll get their man.

The real question is whether or not any of a given batch of free agents fit what they want to do. This year we've got three big names out there in Haynesworth, Peppers, and Asomugha.

The Texans don't sign guys who stomp on other players heads. I'm sorry but I just don't think they'll ever in a million years pursue someone like Albert Haynesworth and I think that's a little short sighted on their part but there it is. Fat Albert isn't going to be coming here.

Julius Peppers wants to play in a 3-4. He's said he wants to play in a 3-4. It's out there. We aren't a 3-4 and so we probably won't even contact the guy. "We have Mario and we don't need Peppers anyway" will probably be the Texans mantra. Sure they want a pass rusher but they aren't going to pay for Julius Peppers to get one and since he doesn't want to play in our kind of defense that makes it easy. That's just not going to happen.

That leaves Asomugha and the Texans likely believe that they have their guys in Dunta Robinson and Jacques Reeves. They'll try to sign Dunta this year and stand pat with Reeves because they think he'll have a breakout year next season what with Frank Bush having everybody be all "aggressive" and stuff. Somebody else will kick out record breaking money to get him anyway and so it doesn't really matter much how the Texans feel about him.

Basically what this all means is that their are no cap implications to worry about because we're not signing any big name free agents this year. We can all put that stuff out of our minds. We'll just keep on drafting and improve that way but the big names available this season don't fit us so nothing to see here.

Norg
02-15-2009, 07:05 PM
ur right we will prob just sign below the radar guys in FA this year like we always do

-SOme guys from denver LOL

-maybe some guys within our divison like we always do i hear Saturday is a FA this year LOL ... Dont we need a Center hes prob to old tho

-and prob some other players from loser teams like Cheifs radiers Browns and Jets

dalemurphy
02-15-2009, 11:29 PM
ur right we will prob just sign below the radar guys in FA this year like we always do

-SOme guys from denver LOL

-maybe some guys within our divison like we always do i hear Saturday is a FA this year LOL ... Dont we need a Center hes prob to old tho

-and prob some other players from loser teams like Cheifs radiers Browns and Jets

Well, I think it's pretty difficult to predict what will happen. This is the first season that Kubiak and Smith are working with a healthy salary cap situation. It's also the first (perhaps second) season they may believe one or two players can make the difference in making the playoffs or not. So, there really isn't any precedent to look at. Their stated philosophy is to build through the draft and suppliment in FA. This year we'll see exactly what that means.

wags
02-16-2009, 11:01 AM
Ravens | McAlister unlikely to return
Mon, 16 Feb 2009 07:11:25 -0800

Mike Preston, of The Baltimore Sun, reports it is fair to assume that Baltimore Ravens CB Chris McAlister will not return next season.

Ravens | Rolle unlikely to return
Mon, 16 Feb 2009 07:05:28 -0800

Mike Preston, of The Baltimore Sun, reports it is fair to assume that Baltimore Ravens CB Samari Rolle will not return next season.

http://kffl.com

I don't think Nnamdi will be available for the Texans, but here are two other corners who may be available.

TexansFan33
02-16-2009, 11:21 PM
If we can sign Chris McAllister I say we do it maybe a 2 year deal? I Still consider him a good corner.

barrett
02-17-2009, 04:22 AM
McCain made several comments about Lechler being a FA. How killer would it be to lock him up for a few years. He was at A&M so I assume he'd be happy to be back in Texas. That's the first "big name" I've heard that I think would be totally worth spending a little extra on.

Since it would be kind of a home coming, hopefully we could get him for a long term deal.

ChampionTexan
02-18-2009, 06:42 PM
McCain made several comments about Lechler being a FA. How killer would it be to lock him up for a few years. He was at A&M so I assume he'd be happy to be back in Texas. That's the first "big name" I've heard that I think would be totally worth spending a little extra on.

Since it would be kind of a home coming, hopefully we could get him for a long term deal.

Looks like the Raiders are going to get to keep him, and are free to use the franchise tag on someone else to boot:

On the same day that Tennessee’s Rob Bironas became the highest-paid kicker in NFL history, the Oakland Raiders were on the verge of making the highest-paid punter in NFL history.

Lechler and the Raiders reached an agreement Wedneday night on a four-year, $12 million deal that keeps the punter off the market and sets a new salary benchmark for the position.

LINK (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/02/18/raiders-lechler-gets-his-kicks-with-four-year-deal/)

badboy
02-19-2009, 12:22 PM
I am providing a link from NFL to clarify the CBA. As the owners opted out, 2010 as of now is an uncapped year. http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80868b78&template=without-video&confirm=true

Asomugha per the recent link attached has not been franchised. http://www.mercurynews.com/giants/ci_11735970 I really like him, but if we lock in DR, we should be ok.

Peppers really intrigues me and I change my mind often on whether we should offer a deal. My understanding is DR is in the range of $20m for bonus and JP should be close to that, but not $30. I think most of his comments are to get him the best deal he can as it will be his last. Without touching the $29m available before Green and Greenwood cut(saving 8.9 m), the $8.9 m is a realistic amount per year. $25 m for 5 year deal= $5 m annually pro-rated bonus + 3.9 for salary offers a $45 million dollar package. That is doable. I am confident JP would play DE for Texans especially after he sees how the draft goes.