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nero THE zero
02-05-2009, 09:43 AM
This scrolled under ESPN's "The Lead" on the ticker this morning. I searched their website and didn't see anything. Anyone know what they're talking about?

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 09:47 AM
If true, I'd be more curious as to which palyer leaked this.

Yankee_In_TX
02-05-2009, 09:50 AM
Which team doesn't?

Ole Miss Texan
02-05-2009, 09:52 AM
This scrolled under ESPN's "The Lead" on the ticker this morning. I searched their website and didn't see anything. Anyone know what they're talking about?

Hmmm. Well during mini-camps its usually the rookies and maybe some of the younger players. They practice in shorts and t shirts (no pads) thus its not to be considered a full contact practice. It's really just a time for the young players to run through some plays, learn new plays, do drills, refresh their memory, etc. An early look so the coaches can kinda see what they have to work with (concerning the rookies) going into more offseason workouts. This may have been the time when they noticed Demeco could make the switch to MLB (ability to learn the plays quickly, be a leader etc.) but I'm not sure.

Maybe during a few drills they wore pads or they were rougher than they were supposed to be? For some reason I think some other team had a problem with this a few years ago and may have even been penalized somehow.

TexanSam
02-05-2009, 09:57 AM
So what are the potential repercussions of this if true?

nero THE zero
02-05-2009, 10:00 AM
Now they're scrolling this:

ESPN's Outside the Lines reports some Texans players say they were instructed to participate in contract drills at 2008 mini-camp, despite such drills violating the collective bargaining agreement

3 players suffered season ending injuries at mini-camp

Full report on Outside the Lines (Sunday, 9 AM ET on ESPN)

Texans34Life
02-05-2009, 10:08 AM
Crap, stupid BSPN all up in our biz.

TexanSam
02-05-2009, 10:08 AM
Here's the article

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3885900

When the Houston Texans' coaching staff announced to linemen that they would be running one-on-one blocking drills during minicamp last May, the rumbling started immediately, players say.

The NFL's rules about minicamp are spelled out in the collective bargaining agreement with the NFL Players Association: no contact, no pads.

"There's a reason why these drills are prohibited in the offseason," said offensive guard Dan Stevenson. "Football is dangerous enough as it is."

But several sources told ESPN that even after the team's player representatives complained to head coach Gary Kubiak, the drills continued; and by the end of minicamp, three players had suffered season-ending injuries.

According to four players and a member of the team's front office who spoke on the condition of anonymity, Kubiak and his coaching staff conducted the drills despite the fact that players were not wearing pads. Their only protection, they said, was helmets.

"It was a live blocking drill. There were people getting pancaked. Everyone's going as hard as he can," Stevenson said.

Stevenson suffered a labrum tear in his shoulder that he feels might end his career.

"I was the third offensive lineman who was done for the season, just from that drill," offensive tackle Jordan Black said. "If nobody's going to stand up, it's just going to continue."

Black had surgery to repair a torn labrum, was released by the team in June and has since signed with the Jacksonville Jaguars. Stevenson also suffered a labrum tear in his right shoulder, and center Chukky Okobi suffered a triceps injury.

"I felt like, for my career, my occupation, my dreams, for all this to be taken away from me, to be jeopardized not for just one season but for my entire football career for something that wasn't supposed to be done -- I was upset," Stevenson said.

Okobi couldn't be reached for comment. Black and Stevenson said that while they accept football's injury risks, they are distressed that their seasons ended in a drill they say should not have happened. Okobi has not signed with a new club.

Stevenson and Black have labor grievances pending against the team, and Stevenson plans to sue the Texans.

Doesn't sound good.

The article does answer my previous question though. It says there is no specific punishment for teams that disobey the rule.

HoustonFrog
02-05-2009, 10:09 AM
OL Stephenson

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3885900

HOUSTON -- When the Houston Texans' coaching staff announced to linemen that they would be running one-on-one blocking drills during minicamp last May, the rumbling started immediately, players say.

The NFL's rules about minicamp are spelled out in the collective bargaining agreement with the NFL Players Association: no contact, no pads.

"There's a reason why these drills are prohibited in the offseason," said offensive guard Dan Stevenson. "Football is dangerous enough as it is."

But several sources told ESPN that even after the team's player representatives complained to head coach Gary Kubiak, the drills continued; and by the end of minicamp, three players had suffered season-ending injuries.

According to four players and a member of the team's front office who spoke on the condition of anonymity, Kubiak and his coaching staff conducted the drills despite the fact that players were not wearing pads. Their only protection, they said, was helmets.

"It was a live blocking drill. There were people getting pancaked. Everyone's going as hard as he can," Stevenson said.

Stevenson suffered a labrum tear in his shoulder that he feels might end his career.

"I was the third offensive lineman who was done for the season, just from that drill," offensive tackle Jordan Black said. "If nobody's going to stand up, it's just going to continue."

Black had surgery to repair a torn labrum, was released by the team in June and has since signed with the Jacksonville Jaguars. Stevenson also suffered a labrum tear in his right shoulder, and center Chukky Okobi suffered a triceps injury.

"I felt like, for my career, my occupation, my dreams, for all this to be taken away from me, to be jeopardized not for just one season but for my entire football career for something that wasn't supposed to be done -- I was upset," Stevenson said.

Okobi couldn't be reached for comment. Black and Stevenson said that while they accept football's injury risks, they are distressed that their seasons ended in a drill they say should not have happened. Okobi has not signed with a new club.

Stevenson and Black have labor grievances pending against the team, and Stevenson plans to sue the Texans.

Asked about the players' charges, team counsel Suzie Thomas wrote in an e-mail, "I am unable to comment, other than to say that information set forth & is inaccurate." Kubiak did not return calls to his office at Reliant Stadium.

NFL and NFLPA officials said there is no specific punishment defined for a team that holds prohibited drills during a minicamp, and an NFL spokesman said the league was unaware of the complaint against the Texans until a call from ESPN.

Stevenson's current grievance is a "non-injury" complaint that relates to the minicamp drill. A previous injury grievance was denied by the NFL Management Council. In that rejection, the NFLMC cited numerous procedural problems with Stevenson's complaint.

One portion of the rejection letter, Stevenson said, read, "the Texans deny & that 'players were required to participate in drills which are explicitly prohibited.' "

Once the team denied that the drill had taken place, Stevenson took a video camera into the Texans' meeting room and filmed the team's video of the workout. The video, which was provided to ESPN, shows what appears to be full-speed, full-contact drills.

Black and former Texans lineman Fred Weary also signed notarized affidavits supporting Stevenson's description of what took place during minicamp, from the complaints of the player representatives to Stevenson's shoulder injury.

The players said it is not uncommon for coaches on many teams to schedule such drills during minicamp, but it is unusual for coaches to proceed with the drills when players object.

Tom DePaso, associate general counsel for the NFLPA, said the union often hears complaints about offseason drills that violate the CBA.

"It's this classic thing in the offseason. Coaches really want to get started on the new season; and on the other hand, we need our guys to learn and they need to rest," DePaso said.

DePaso wouldn't specifically address the grievances against the Texans or the three players who received season-ending injuries.

"If that were the case," he said, "that would be extraordinary."

HoustonFrog
02-05-2009, 10:11 AM
Not sounding good since the practices were video taped to prove it.

awtysst
02-05-2009, 10:14 AM
Whats the worst that can happen? Will we get fined? Lose Draft picks?

Malloy
02-05-2009, 10:15 AM
omg Richard Justice was right.. ;)

Oh well, let's see how this one plays out...

ArlingtonTexan
02-05-2009, 10:16 AM
One of the off-season bits at profootballtalk.com is finding pictures of teams which are in violation of contact rules. They have probably dozens of pictures from various teams. the Texans are not unusual in that regard, and if anything "normal" is this regard.

False Start
02-05-2009, 10:18 AM
Damn, so I-65 had to blow it. I hope we don't suffer any severe consequences for this. This is Cowboyesque. :mcnugget:

HoustonFrog
02-05-2009, 10:18 AM
omg Richard Justice was right.. ;)

Oh well, let's see how this one plays out...

That is the first thing I thought..."Justice will have a field day"

Wolf
02-05-2009, 10:19 AM
this happened to 2005

The NFL stripped the Washington Redskins of three workout days for violating league rules governing the intensity of offseason training, costing the team valuable practice time just before its June 17-19 minicamp, Coach Joe Gibbs said yesterday.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/09/AR2005060901271.html

painekiller
02-05-2009, 10:19 AM
IIRC the Redskins lost some off season practice days for the year a few years back.

HOU-TEX
02-05-2009, 10:20 AM
Meh, I don't think it's going to be a big deal. It sounds like sour grapes from 3 players no longer with the team. Even if it were to go against the Texans I wouldn't think the punishment would be too extreme.

mexican_texan
02-05-2009, 10:25 AM
Every team does this.

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 10:26 AM
Meh, I don't think it's going to be a big deal. It sounds like sour grapes from 3 players no longer with the team. Even if it were to go against the Texans I wouldn't think the punishment would be too extreme.

Not only 3 players who are no longer Texans, but three players that had very little chance of making the team anyways.

The team will more then likely lose some workout days early in the preseason, and McNair will likely have to fork over some cash to the three guys who got injure.

For what it worth, Justice was wrong. If the trainer and S&C coach were the "best in the NFL" then these guys should not have gotten injured. Especally since two of them suffered the same injury.

Malloy
02-05-2009, 10:28 AM
Meh, I don't think it's going to be a big deal. It sounds like sour grapes from 3 players no longer with the team. Even if it were to go against the Texans I wouldn't think the punishment would be too extreme.

Thought about that one too, but in all honesty they're the ones injurey AND off the team, they have nothing to lose. If anyone is to speak up they're the ones, they lost it all and have nothing else to lose to bring this up.

Not saying they're right, just pointing out that if someone were to complain about illegal procedures in the off-season, these would be the guys doing it.

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 10:30 AM
Thought about that one too, but in all honesty they're the ones injurey AND off the team, they have nothing to lose. If anyone is to speak up they're the ones, they lost it all and have nothing else to lose to bring this up.

Not saying they're right, just pointing out that if someone were to complain about illegal procedures in the off-season, these would be the guys doing it.

It's funny to me that the only one not currently on a team is the one not talking to the media.

JWarren14
02-05-2009, 10:30 AM
Would these guys have even made the team? If they get hurt during contact drills in minicamp do you think they would have much of a career playing 16+ games a season at a high level week in and week out? I understand its a rule, but to me it just looks these guys are trying to get some sort of compensation or something.

I think its a sport in other countries I think its called rugby or something like that.

Hell Diles broke his leg running down the field in a non-contact drill because he tripped over himself and had a freak accident.

Typical ESPN blowing things out of proportion like LeBron blocking Yao from the weakside or LeBron buying a pepsi from a vending machine using a $2 bill or LeBron shooting a free-throw.

What a joke... hey Stevenson...

"Man's game b*tch!"

Malloy
02-05-2009, 10:32 AM
It's funny to me that the only one not currently on a team is the one not talking to the media.

Im not following you here?
2 of the 3 players mentioned in this espn-stuff are off the team right ?

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 10:33 AM
A question for somebody more knowledgeable then me. Would shoulder pads have prevented a town labrum?

HOU-TEX
02-05-2009, 10:33 AM
Thought about that one too, but in all honesty they're the ones injurey AND off the team, they have nothing to lose. If anyone is to speak up they're the ones, they lost it all and have nothing else to lose to bring this up.

Not saying they're right, just pointing out that if someone were to complain about illegal procedures in the off-season, these would be the guys doing it.

Yes, but after reading the article I got the impression that this happens on an annual basis. This year it's the Texans turn. lol

IMO, it's no biggie.

TEXANS84
02-05-2009, 10:33 AM
Alex Gibbs cut-block, it's whats for lawsuits.

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 10:37 AM
Im not following you here?
2 of the 3 players mentioned in this espn-stuff are off the team right ?

Nevermind...brainfart of epic proportions.

Black is a Jag. Stevenson is still a Texan, on IR. Chucky Okobi is not on a roster.

I wonder how long Stevenson is a Texan after this?

Malloy
02-05-2009, 10:38 AM
Would these guys have even made the team? If they get hurt during contact drills in minicamp do you think they would have much of a career playing 16+ games a season at a high level week in and week out? I understand its a rule, but to me it just looks these guys are trying to get some sort of compensation or something.

I think its a sport in other countries I think its called rugby or something like that.

Hell Diles broke his leg running down the field in a non-contact drill because he tripped over himself and had a freak accident.

Typical ESPN blowing things out of proportion like LeBron blocking Yao from the weakside or LeBron buying a pepsi from a vending machine using a $2 bill or LeBron shooting a free-throw.

What a joke... hey Stevenson...

"Man's game b*tch!"

Thats just complete rubbish on so many levels.

Yes they are trying to get compensation because they're careers are ruined, and they damn well should.

That whole 'mans game' talk, do you realize how dumb it sounds? If you lose your job, would you be all manly about it and say 'sure, it's a mans world, I should suck it up'?

Yankee_In_TX
02-05-2009, 10:40 AM
Seriously dude - you're a player I have never herd of, get injured, and sneak a video camera in the film room? Hope your grievance works out, because you'll never play in the NFL again.

Sorry you got hurt, hope you get what is coming for your injury AND NOTHING MORE, but jackass.

Malloy
02-05-2009, 10:41 AM
Yes, but after reading the article I got the impression that this happens on an annual basis. This year it's the Texans turn. lol

IMO, it's no biggie.

I agree, Im sure all teams do it. That does IMO not change the fact that the players injured are entitled to bring it to the NFLPA's attention and seek some sort of compensation.

Perhaps this will bury the accusations by some that this is a soft franchise :)

Malloy
02-05-2009, 10:44 AM
Nevermind...brainfart of epic proportions.

Black is a Jag. Stevenson is still a Texan, on IR. Chucky Okobi is not on a roster.

I wonder how long Stevenson is a Texan after this?

Oh dear, thought I had the brain-fart, thanks for saving my ass there ;)

Stevenson might be one of the first players to go, considering that he brought a camera to training... Im sure that's grounds to kick him out.

gtexan02
02-05-2009, 10:44 AM
What a joke. End your career because of a torn labrum? Plenty of people get that injury and come back just fine. Sure 3 people got hurt durnig minicamp, but how many more got injured throughout the year? Tihs is just sensationalist journalism.

I say we ship this guy overseas and leave him there. This football team is a family, and you don't ever go against the family

HoustonFrog
02-05-2009, 10:46 AM
Nevermind...brainfart of epic proportions.

Black is a Jag. Stevenson is still a Texan, on IR. Chucky Okobi is not on a roster.

I wonder how long Stevenson is a Texan after this?

Weary, an ex, agrees with them though. It people gave him any respect for this time here.

Overall though, considering the O-line depth, I don't find this to be "nothing" since that depth was depleted due to these injuries. Sounds stupid to me. They have something to grind but it isn't something I like to see.

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 10:47 AM
Seriously dude - you're a player I have never herd of, get injured, and sneak a video camera in the film room? Hope your grievance works out, because you'll never play in the NFL again.

Sorry you got hurt, hope you get what is coming for your injury AND NOTHING MORE, but jackass.

Stevenson is still listed as an IR'ed Texan, atleast according to the homepage.

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster.html

gtexan02
02-05-2009, 10:48 AM
Did anyone watch the video? How is that drill full speed? No one even falls down

Yankee_In_TX
02-05-2009, 10:49 AM
Stevenson is still listed as an IR'ed Texan, atleast according to the homepage.

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster.html

I've still never heard of him :)

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 10:50 AM
I've still never heard of him :)

Nor had I. I had only heard about Black, because of the near infinte chours' stating how much he sucked.

The Pencil Neck
02-05-2009, 10:50 AM
A question for somebody more knowledgeable then me. Would shoulder pads have prevented a town labrum?

The pads could restrict the range of motion of the arm.

But... I wouldn't expect it to make that much of a difference. Cloak would be able to answer this much better than I can.

But when I hear of a torn labrum, I usually associate it with a sharp tug on the forearm where the force is transferred up the biceps to the attachment on the labrum. The weakest link along that chain usually tears or detaches. Sometimes it's the labrum, sometimes it's the attachment of the biceps to the forearm. If I'm right on that, then the pads wouldn't have made a difference.

Unless Jackson's and Black's problem wasn't with the use of pads but rather the level of contact because they weren't in football shape, yet. And if it's about being in shape, then I'd put that on the S&C staff.

Malloy
02-05-2009, 10:51 AM
I say we ship this guy overseas and leave him there. This football team is a family, and you don't ever go against the family

Thats mafia logic.

I appreciate that players stick their heads out to protect themselves and future players from ending up in the same situation. Thats supporting your family, not hiding abuse based on a skewed sense of loyalty.

gtexan02
02-05-2009, 10:56 AM
Thats mafia logic.

I appreciate that players stick their heads out to protect themselves and future players from ending up in the same situation. Thats supporting your family, not hiding abuse based on a skewed sense of loyalty.

IF the Texans were violating the rules that all other NFL teams abided by and IF that was leading to significant increases in injuries and IF these injuries were keeping players from getting a fair shot at a career in the NFL than I totally agree.

We don't need to be doing things that are unnecessarily dangerous to get ahead, because we just end up falling further behind.


BUT from the video, the link, the story, etc, it sounds like this is something EVERY team does, it sounds like this guy knew he didnt have a future in football, and it sounds like he's just trying to mooch as much $$ as possible. The claim was already filed and rejected by the NFLPA, and now he's just going for sensationalism. AND he's using deceit to achieve his goals.

Stevenson's current grievance is a "non-injury" complaint that relates to the minicamp drill. A previous injury grievance was denied by the NFL Management Council. In that rejection, the NFLMC cited numerous procedural problems with Stevenson's complaint.

I don't like that at all.

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 11:01 AM
IF the Texans were violating the rules that all other NFL teams abided by and IF that was leading to significant increases in injuries and IF these injuries were keeping players from getting a fair shot at a career in the NFL than I totally agree.

We don't need to be doing things that are unnecessarily dangerous to get ahead, because we just end up falling further behind.


BUT from the video, the link, the story, etc, it sounds like this is something EVERY team does, it sounds like this guy knew he didnt have a future in football, and it sounds like he's just trying to mooch as much $$ as possible. The claim was already filed and rejected by the NFLPA, and now he's just going for sensationalism. AND he's using deceit to achieve his goals.

I don't like that at all

I agree, and I think it speaks volume's that the NFL has already rejected his claim.

ubecool454
02-05-2009, 11:01 AM
The player that leaked this is probably one of the ones that got cut!:foottap:

JWarren14
02-05-2009, 11:02 AM
Thats just complete rubbish on so many levels.

Yes they are trying to get compensation because they're careers are ruined, and they damn well should.

That whole 'mans game' talk, do you realize how dumb it sounds? If you lose your job, would you be all manly about it and say 'sure, it's a mans world, I should suck it up'?

Football is a man's game correct, or did it lose its physicality, I think it was Polomalu who spoke out about it (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54728).

It ruined his NFL career not his career, he should be able to find a good job somewhere if he got his 4-year-degree.

There is no guarantee you will make the team if you make it mini-camp, it's your last chance to show what you got. If I was up for a promotion and I gave it everything I could than that's all I could do. Life isn't fair sometimes, but you know you suck it up take what you have and move on to the next challenge that's what life is about. I lost my soccer career doing things that are just insane during training camp, sprinting with a 45 pound plate in the 100 degree heat when its obvious that the sweat is going to make someone drop the plate and cause serious injury, but hey it is what it is I made the best of my year transferred to a better academic college received my degree and got a good job. Would I have loved to better my game and make it at the next level, hell yeah I would, but it wasn't in the cards. It's part of any sport, you can get injured at any time.

So yes if I lost my job giving 100% while being asked to do something above and beyond what I was supposed to, then yes I would suck it up and move on because somebody else would love to have a person with that type of attitude.

Thanks for your opinion though, I have got mine you've got yours, that's also part of life.

Besides it's not like it hasn't happened before (http://www.blackathlete.com/artman2/publish/Football_7/Time_For_More_Football.shtml) 2) How much contact is allowed?? – The CBA says, “No contact allowed anytime.”

But we all know coaches and teams will push the envelope. Almost all practices are no pads, but there is always jostling as teams try to figure out who is close to mid-season form. The amount of contact can have repercussion as seen last spring as three clubs with taskmaster coaches were penalized for OTA violations (Arizona Cardinals, New York Giants, and Detroit Lions). The Detroit Lions were especially singled out as their taskmaster head coach Rod Marinelli’s approach was not well received by “coddled” players.

The Lions lost two days of OTA’s after a lineman filed a grievance with the NFLPA alleging that the team held contact drills at a mini-camp. No matter what level of contact, coaches like old-school former Redskins head coach Joe Gibbs think players need to buck up. Gibbs said after a spring 2005 investigation into his OTA’s, "There's not competitive stuff (at OTA’s)”

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 11:03 AM
The player that leaked this is probably one of the ones that got cut!:foottap:

Nope, Stevenson is the source and he's still a Texan. Black is a Jag, and Okobi is not on a roster (but he didn't talk to ESPN about this).

Malloy
02-05-2009, 11:07 AM
Assessing the players motives are speculative at best, I wont even go there.

This might be normal procedure within NFL teams, but just because everyone is doing it does not make it less wrong or illegal.

I have not watched the video and honestly I am not sure I will. I am strictly discussing this from a principal standpoint. If our team has broken NFL rules they better own up to it and act accordingly REGARDLESS of what happens to other teams doing the same.

I won't trashtalk ESPN for bringing attention to this either, thats journalism, nor will I discredit the players for bringing what they believe to be unfair procedures to the attention of the media.

gtexan02
02-05-2009, 11:10 AM
Heres what bothers me:

There are TONS of instances where players (lots of lineman) file complaints about violation of contact rules, and the team loses OTA workouts. It happened last year with 3 teams.

Why didn't this guy just file a grievance? Because he did and it was rejected.

This is all I need to know

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 11:11 AM
Assessing the players motives are speculative at best, I wont even go there.

This might be normal procedure within NFL teams, but just because everyone is doing it does not make it less wrong or illegal.

I have not watched the video and honestly I am not sure I will. I am strictly discussing this from a principal standpoint. If our team has broken NFL rules they better own up to it and act accordingly REGARDLESS of what happens to other teams doing the same.

I won't trashtalk ESPN for bringing attention to this either, thats journalism, nor will I discredit the players for bringing what they believe to be unfair procedures to the attention of the media.

My problem is that I feel Stevenson is only bringing this to the attention of the media becuase he didn't get the results he wnated by going through the offical channels established by the CBA.

Wolf
02-05-2009, 11:13 AM
I never have been to any of the practices, my first thought is that you have a bunch of guys going through drills, And esp the ones that are fighting to make the team, get a little competitive or tries to make a first impression on the coaching staff (even without pads) and the competitive fire starts going between players and they start to do a little more... Coaches see this and even though it is no contact, don't condone it or doesn't encourage it..

could I be off here?

silly as this may sound , when I go out and practice softball now, even at 38, I say before practice, that I won't do this or do that, but once I am out in the outfield, I end up going full out, diving for balls if I have to. As a kid playing other sports, even messing around, I went full out.. Dad had taught me that "you practice how you play"

Now I know this is apples and oranges to an NFL player and what they do, I just wonder if some of the guys mindsets are about the same. Non contact drills and once you get someone going against you, one DE is going through the motions and wants to just "show a bit more and get past the OL", the offensive linemen shows a little more competitiveness "shows a little more" to keep the DE in check , so to speak

I may be misunderstanding the whole process that goes on in the non-contact drills, so someone ,please, set me straight if my thinking is wrong

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 11:14 AM
Assessing the players motives are speculative at best, I wont even go there.

This might be normal procedure within NFL teams, but just because everyone is doing it does not make it less wrong or illegal.

I have not watched the video and honestly I am not sure I will. I am strictly discussing this from a principal standpoint. If our team has broken NFL rules they better own up to it and act accordingly REGARDLESS of what happens to other teams doing the same.

I won't trashtalk ESPN for bringing attention to this either, thats journalism, nor will I discredit the players for bringing what they believe to be unfair procedures to the attention of the media.

You need to watch the video. I'vee seen drills at the Combine get way more physical then the drill shown in the video clip.

Malloy
02-05-2009, 11:18 AM
My problem is that I feel Stevenson is only bringing this to the attention of the media becuase he didn't get the results he wnated by going through the offical channels established by the CBA.

True, but again we do not know his motives. It could be good old greed, then again it could be because he honestly feel that he and others were taken advantage of, and that he wants to see some sort of consequences to what he believes are improper and illegal procedures.

Im glad the cat is out of the bag honestly, if it holds water he'll get what he is entitled to, if not then our team is cleared. For someone who cherishes things being 'right' this is a win-win.

Señor Stan
02-05-2009, 11:20 AM
"It was a live blocking drill. There were people getting pancaked. Everyone's going as hard as he can," Stevenson said.

"I felt like, for my career, my occupation, my dreams, for all this to be taken away from me, to be jeopardized not for just one season but for my entire football career for something that wasn't supposed to be done -- I was upset," Stevenson said


Stevenson suffered a labia tear that he feels might end his career.



Fixed it for him.

HOU-TEX
02-05-2009, 11:22 AM
I agree, Im sure all teams do it. That does IMO not change the fact that the players injured are entitled to bring it to the NFLPA's attention and seek some sort of compensation.

Perhaps this will bury the accusations by some that this is a soft franchise :)

Fixed it for him.

:spit: Damn!

Malloy
02-05-2009, 11:23 AM
You need to watch the video. I'vee seen drills at the Combine get way more physical then the drill shown in the video clip.

Im not sure what I would be looking for, I have zero experience with this so my evaluation of said training would be done based on absolutely nothing. I'll rather leave that to the people charged with the task of determining whether it is a breach of NFLPA rules or not :)

infantrycak
02-05-2009, 11:23 AM
Stevenson suffered a labia tear that he feels might end his career.

:spit:

He may very well find this ends his career even if the injury doesn't. He was marginal to begin with and other teams aren't going to appreciate this either.

Like Arlington said above--profootballtalk has been talking for a couple years about how pervasive this is and the NFL does nothing. Look at the quotes and pictures from around the league and you can tell the rule gets violated all the time.

Yankee_In_TX
02-05-2009, 11:32 AM
:spit:

He may very well find this ends his career even if the injury doesn't. He was marginal to begin with and other teams aren't going to appreciate this either.

Like Arlington said above--profootballtalk has been talking for a couple years about how pervasive this is and the NFL does nothing. Look at the quotes and pictures from around the league and you can tell the rule gets violated all the time.

You mean future coaches and teammates may not approve of this behavior?
Stevenson took a video camera into the Texans' meeting room and filmed the team's video of the workout.

Bulluck53
02-05-2009, 11:37 AM
Yikes... now what will this be known as? Illegal Contact-Gate...

Hey, we may be classless but at least we don't cheat lol:

WesmanTexanfan
02-05-2009, 11:51 AM
Crap, stupid BSPN all up in our biz.


thats about how i feel...

GP
02-05-2009, 11:56 AM
Meh, I don't think it's going to be a big deal. It sounds like sour grapes from 3 players no longer with the team. Even if it were to go against the Texans I wouldn't think the punishment would be too extreme.

My initial reaction, based on what I have read, is that this was VERY wrong to have happened.

Going all out in a drill where you went hard enough to tear a labrum? Pads might have absorbed a lot of that punishment.

This isn't good, at all, if it's true.

GP
02-05-2009, 11:57 AM
Yikes... now what will this be known as? Illegal Contact-Gate...

Hey, we may be classless but at least we don't cheat lol:

You DO cheat. LenWhale cuts in line at the meals all the time. :smiliedance:

Wolf
02-05-2009, 12:05 PM
You DO cheat. LenWhale cuts in line at the meals all the time. :smiliedance:

I was thinking more along the lines of: with every breath and exhale, a certain owner cheats a deserving human of clean air


but that is just me :specnatz:

bigbrewster2000
02-05-2009, 12:06 PM
You DO cheat. LenWhale cuts in line at the meals all the time. :smiliedance:

Rep to you sir.

Bulluck53
02-05-2009, 12:29 PM
You DO cheat. LenWhale cuts in line at the meals all the time. :smiliedance:

Haha, and goes back for seconds before everyone has been through. Good one :whip:

OK, we'll take it another step. At least when we cheat we win more than we lose!

El Tejano
02-05-2009, 12:30 PM
Pay them their money so everyone can get over it. Get back to football. The NFL cheats teams out of Super Bowls all the time.

bah007
02-05-2009, 12:35 PM
Pay them their money so everyone can get over it. Get back to football. The NFL cheats teams out of Super Bowls all the time.

Still bitter the Steelers won huh?

BigBull17
02-05-2009, 12:39 PM
Haha, and goes back for seconds before everyone has been through. Good one :whip:

OK, we'll take it another step. At least when we cheat we win more than we lose!

Thats true. We cant even cheat well. At least Bud Adams isnt our owner.

:texflag:

El Tejano
02-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Still bitter the Steelers won huh?
I've been bitter with the Steelers since 1978!

El Tejano
02-05-2009, 12:54 PM
Haha, and goes back for seconds before everyone has been through. Good one :whip:

OK, we'll take it another step. At least when we cheat we win more than we lose!

And end up with the same result as us when it comes to Super Bowls.

Polo
02-05-2009, 12:59 PM
OK, we'll take it another step. At least when we cheat we win more than we lose!

Maybe y'all should have cheated against Baltimore then...

Runner
02-05-2009, 01:10 PM
This isn't the first time this has happened with the Texans, and I doubt it will be the last. In fact, I believe that Aaron Glenn's complaints as player rep about the same activity was a factor in his falling out with the Texans.

That being said, other teams do the same thing. If the Texans really want to be a place that is known to be a "good place to play" for free agents, maybe they should learn from this and abide by the agreement. I doubt they will, even though it must have very minimal benefits when compared to the risks.

whiskeyrbl
02-05-2009, 01:28 PM
Seriously dude - you're a player I have never herd of, get injured, and sneak a video camera in the film room? Hope your grievance works out, because you'll never play in the NFL again.

Sorry you got hurt, hope you get what is coming for your injury AND NOTHING MORE, but jackass.
Isn't that a crime to take a camera in the film room and record it??? If so would the tape be admissable as evidence in his suit since he aquired it illegaly?

dalemurphy
02-05-2009, 01:40 PM
This isn't the first time this has happened with the Texans, and I doubt it will be the last. In fact, I believe that Aaron Glenn's complaints as player rep about the same activity was a factor in his falling out with the Texans.

That being said, other teams do the same thing. If the Texans really want to be a place that is known to be a "good place to play" for free agents, maybe they should learn from this and abide by the agreement. I doubt they will, even though it must have very minimal benefits when compared to the risks.

If they violated the spirit of the rule and took advantage of the players, then I'm disappointed with the organization. However, if they simply breached the literal reading of the rules in order to begin to institute a new OL system with the new coach (Gibbs) and the players weren't placed at any greater risk than normal, then I've got no problem with it but still hope that a fringe player like Stevenson and Okobi get some financial restitution for damage done to their careers.

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 01:43 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6248129.html

If the Texans are found to have violated the NFL’s offseason workout policy, they will lose one week of their organized team activities, and coach Gary Kubiak could be fined.

If a league investigation finds more than one violation during the league year, the Texans could be fined a fourth-round draft choice, according to the collective bargaining agreement.

So it seems that 4th rounder is the max punishment that the team could suffer.

If Kubiak knew this, and ran these practices anyways, and we end up losing a draft pick; I'll be highly pissed.

ATXtexanfan
02-05-2009, 02:06 PM
This all sounds like much to do about nothing

Runner
02-05-2009, 02:07 PM
I don't know what this extra contact is supposed to gain the team anyway. Today's players are much more fit year round than in previous eras, and they all know how to hit already. I think the coaches just fall back to the "tough guy" methods they learned under.

If the point was to teach a new OL scheme, it seems spending the time on group OL training would be more beneficial. I know some players think there is too much practice contact; I guess that is why the players wanted it in the CB (which the teams agreed to signed).

I'm with the players on this one.

Runner
02-05-2009, 02:09 PM
This all sounds like much to do about nothing

I don't think the average NFL player thinks this is nothing.

dtran04
02-05-2009, 02:10 PM
Thanks for pissing off the rest of the team. Now OTA's will be soft and short but training camp will be the most brutal that the team has ever had. They will have to put in the extra work that they missed. Alex Gibbs probably wants this guy booted out of there so bad. LOL

J-Russ
02-05-2009, 02:16 PM
Looks like Gibbs is following along Darwin's, quick way to sort out the scrub from the players, in his natural selection program.

Survival of the fittest baby.

Look like these scrubs are just trying to milk out some money cause they know they have no chance of success anymore in the NFL. W/E.

badboy
02-05-2009, 02:20 PM
A question for somebody more knowledgeable then me. Would shoulder pads have prevented a town labrum?yes, but not if the torn labrum was on the town drunk.

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 02:24 PM
Dick Justice's take:
http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2009/02/kubiak_messed_u.html

I bet you can't guess how it reads?

The video shows players doing full-speed blocking drills without pads. First, the drills are illegal. Second, they're dumb.

There's a reason the NFL's labor agreement allows contact drills only at appointed times. Otherwise, coaches would have players banging on each other 10 months a year.

Maybe Gary Kubiak and Alex Gibbs thought they'd toughen the boys up. If the Texans are cheating, shouldn't they at least win a few more games?

This thing could get really ugly. It goes beyond illegal drills. It gets into how injured players are cared for.

The Texans look really bad. For a franchise that prides itself on doing things right, on wanting high-character guys, this deal looks terrible. Cheating is cheating. Do other teams do it? Sure they do. Do other teams get caught? Sometimes?

Now we're down a road that includes grievances, depositions and lawsuits. Ugh. You'd think if the Texans were cheating, they'd be better on the field. You'd think if Rick Smith is smart enough to be on the NFL's Competition Committee, he'd be smart enough to let his head coach know he's breaking the rules about off-season workouts.

Maybe Rick was so busy surrounding himself with ''his people'' that he didn't have time to care of these silly little details.

The Texans can't do anything right, can they? It's not that Gary Kubiak broke a rule or two regarding off-season workouts. Lord knows, he's not the first.

There are dumber teams. The Redskins got caught a couple of years ago when they posted an illegal practice right there on their own Web site. At least the Texans weren't that dumb.

The problem is that Kubiak doesn't come off as real smart. If you're going to cheat, you've got to know you can get away with it.

And yes I know I had promised myself to not read The Media's drivel again, but this might be something fairly important about the team.

Bulluck53
02-05-2009, 02:31 PM
And end up with the same result as us when it comes to Super Bowls.

That's not the point... :headhurts:

Bulluck53
02-05-2009, 02:32 PM
Maybe y'all should have cheated against Baltimore then...

We tried paying the refs but they went all Mike Miller on us...

Runner
02-05-2009, 02:37 PM
Let's try to keep this thread on subject and keep the smack talk in the proper forum.

===========

I wonder how the "survival of the fittest" theory will sound if it is an Eric Winston type that gets hurt the next time.

Wolf
02-05-2009, 02:39 PM
I am missing it, is there a video link somewhere of the practice?

I am the the main site but don't see it

HOU-TEX
02-05-2009, 02:40 PM
I am missing it, is there a video link somewhere of the practice?

I am the the main site but don't see it

Espin has a clip on their site. It shows a couple of seconds of hand fighting. Kinda lame if you ask me.

Runner
02-05-2009, 02:42 PM
Thanks for pissing off the rest of the team. Now OTA's will be soft and short but training camp will be the most brutal that the team has ever had. They will have to put in the extra work that they missed. Alex Gibbs probably wants this guy booted out of there so bad. LOL


I'm still not clear on what the players are missing if they don't have early contact drills with no pads. There is plenty of wear and tear on these guys' bodies through the season. Extra hitting at OTAs isn't going to make them less injury prone the last few games of the year; if anything it will have the opposite effect.

Bulluck53
02-05-2009, 02:43 PM
Let's try to keep this thread on subject and keep the smack talk in the proper forum.

===========

I wonder how the "survival of the fittest" theory will sound if it is an Eric Winston type that gets hurt the next time.

I agree, damn.

Seriously, though. This is a non-issue from an outside fan. Cheating is the wrong word for this, it was just a bad decision. It isn't comparable to Spygate or steroids or whatever like ESPN's Bottomline seems to want it to be. Bad decision that Kubiak and Co. will pay for. Really sucks that those guys got hurt but were those injuries a direct result of these drills?

badboy
02-05-2009, 02:53 PM
The point is rules were established and allegedly broken by the managment. You might not like to stop for red lights but that is a rule. Damage occured due to the violation and victims should be re-imbursed. It is amazing to me how many say "well it was a little rule or it did not kill'em or they would not have made the team". It does not matter. Cheating should not be laughed at. Thousand of children watch sports only to learn cheating or hitting the girl friend or wife is OK as long as it does not keep him from helping his team.

If Texans violated a rule, suck it up and pay the freight and go on. McNair is known for wanting quality character players. How about Kubes showing some character and stop breaking the rules?

Runner
02-05-2009, 02:53 PM
I agree, damn.

Seriously, though. This is a non-issue from an outside fan. Cheating is the wrong word for this, it was just a bad decision. It isn't comparable to Spygate or steroids or whatever like ESPN's Bottomline seems to want it to be. Bad decision that Kubiak and Co. will pay for. Really sucks that those guys got hurt but were those injuries a direct result of these drills?


And I agree with you that as far as "cheating" goes, this is small potatoes. In fact, I don't think doing it offers any competitive advantage.

It does however affect how the players perceive their coaches and the team as a whole. I'm not just talking about the ones that are complaining, I'm talking about the entire roster. Most of the players don't like it, and they all know it not supposed to be done. It is just another sign management thinks of them as pieces of meat.

Put yourself in the shoes of a player - do you think it makes the player respect the coach and credit him as "tough" just because he abuses his authority?

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 02:57 PM
I think the most damning thing for Kubiak is that the player reps told him that the drills were a violation, and yet he continued to run them.

Bulluck53
02-05-2009, 03:02 PM
No, but to be honest I didn't play football in high school because I hated the coach so I may not be the one to ask.

I understand that the players may frown upon this but they didn't have pads on. How much contact could they have had? I'm on the fence on this one. If no one had been hurt would the players have been upset? I know "ifs and buts" and I know that someone indeed was injured but I just don't understand the big deal. It was very unfortunate that someone got hurt but I don't see the big picture as a big deal. People break the rules all the time. This one backfired more than some others.

And Badboy, I get what you're saying and definetly agree with you. It was cheating, someone got screwed out of a job because of it, and they should be reimbursed. Not to be a smart ass to ya but I do speed, I did drink before I was 21, I have smoked pot before, and teams break rules all the time (you think the Pats were the only ones taping signals? And remember my Fisher having a verbal agreement with Chris Simms when he was cut then re-signed this season? Hell there have been reports of offers made to Hyanesworth already by several different teams.) Teams cheat and wont stop doing so until they get hurt as a direct result (just like I probably won't stop speeding until I get a ticket or worse).

EDIT: to summarize I don't think this should be looked at as a burden towards Kubiak or the Texans

Texan_Bill
02-05-2009, 03:03 PM
Carl Mauk, Mike Webster, Art Shell, and all of the old school O-Linemen would laugh at these guys.

BTW, I've never heard of pads preventing torn labrums. Maybe MLB pitchers ought to start wearing shoulder pads if it helps... :gun:

TimeKiller
02-05-2009, 03:16 PM
Why did he participate if he's just going to complain about it later? Don't do the (practicing) if you can't do the (injury).

Man's game

J-Russ
02-05-2009, 03:16 PM
I wonder how the "survival of the fittest" theory will sound if it is an Eric Winston type that gets hurt the next time.

oh damn, I think I just got served.

You're right, the responses would be different. But Eric would probably have the decency of keeping this stuff private instead of blabbing to the media about it like that Stevenson chump.

Runner
02-05-2009, 03:17 PM
Carl Mauk, Mike Webster, Art Shell, and all of the old school O-Linemen would laugh at these guys.

BTW, I've never heard of pads preventing torn labrums. Maybe MLB pitchers ought to start wearing shoulder pads if it helps... :gun:


I don't think Mike Webster is a good example to use to promote more contact with less pads.

Of course, who cares if players are crippled, demented, or dead by fifty? Their careers are over and they can't help the team anyway. :sarcasm:

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 03:21 PM
McClain wieghts in:
http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2009/02/texans_better_hope_they_dont_l.html

The Texans better hope the NFL investigation doesn't turn up multiple violations of their offseason workout policy. If it does, they could lose a fourth-round draft choice as spelled out in the collective bargaining agreement.

At best, the team will lose a week of organized team activities for conducting illegal one-on-one blocking drills between offensive and defensive linemen. Coach Gary Kubiak can expect a fine that will be donated to charity. The CBA says the head coach can't be reimbursed by the team.

I'm still pissed that this could cost the team a draft pick.

Texan_Bill
02-05-2009, 03:37 PM
I don't think Mike Webster is a good example to use to promote more contact with less pads.

Of course, who cares if players are crippled, demented, or dead by fifty? Their careers are over and they can't help the team anyway. :sarcasm:

In retrospect you're right, Webster, not so much. Mauck, Shell and numerous other tough guys are doing fine though. This is why Australian Rules Football and Rugby players laugh at American Football.

Runner
02-05-2009, 03:42 PM
oh damn, I think I just got served.



You could have responded, "he's one of the fit; he won't get hurt". :)

HOU-TEX
02-05-2009, 03:52 PM
You could have responded, "he's one of the fit; he won't get hurt". :)

Heck yeah, he's one of the fit. If running from T-Rex's and dragging Brontosaurus legs back to the cave won't get a dude in optimal shape, nothing will.

b0ng
02-05-2009, 03:52 PM
Dick Justice's take:
http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2009/02/kubiak_messed_u.html

I bet you can't guess how it reads?



And yes I know I had promised myself to not read The Media's drivel again, but this might be something fairly important about the team.

*Spergs out on keyboard*
*Posts what comes out to chron.com*

GP
02-05-2009, 04:07 PM
Isn't that a crime to take a camera in the film room and record it??? If so would the tape be admissable as evidence in his suit since he aquired it illegaly?

I believe the recording of a conversation, whether it's audio or video or both, is permissable as evidence. The only question is this: Did the person recording the conversation "bait" or somehow entrap the offender?

I think, if I remember right from my journalism days in college, that at least one person in the recording must give permission to be recorded. So the player doing the recording obviously gives his permission.

I know we have at least one person on here who is a lawyer, so maybe he can provide insight.

Here's the link to a site dealing with recording TELEPHONE conversations:Laws On Recording Phone Conversations (http://www.callcorder.com/phone-recording-law-america.htm)

Texas is a state where at least one person must give consent to being recorded. The person recording their own conversation with others thus counts as the one person needed. If you set up a recorder, then leave the room; however, you have committed a felony. I suppose the reasoning is that when YOU are present, the other parties are aware of your presence and can guard against doing something...but, if you hide the camera and go away--You are capturing private moments; moments you're not a part of. That whole "peeping tom" thing I suppose.

....having a hard time finding the law on video, though.

BSofA04
02-05-2009, 04:17 PM
I have a feeling this could hurt us when FA's begin looking at the Texans. I don't want a negative feeling of "Will the Texans protect me?"

GP
02-05-2009, 04:21 PM
Yeah, this is not good.

Especially if it ends up costing us a 4th rounder.

What possible GOOD could have been gained from doing those drills? Just as a "I'm the boss and you'll do what I say" sort of thing? Trying to get an early jump on other teams?

Seems pretty dumb, if you ask me. The reward does not outweigh the risk, IMO.

FirstTexansFan
02-05-2009, 04:21 PM
Looks like little Dickie is having a field day with this one. *LINK (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2009/02/kubiak_messed_u.html)*

I responded to his drivel, but I'm sure it won't make it past his editing capabilities LOL So I'll double post it here for our own laughter :)

"You're well on your way to getting that job in Nashville Richard. All you need is to get your hair cut in a mullet. Your IQ and writing skills meet the qualifications. Good luck with that!"

GP
02-05-2009, 04:23 PM
Looks like little Dickie is having a field day with this one. *LINK (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2009/02/kubiak_messed_u.html)*

I responded to his drivel, but I'm sure it won't make it past his editing capabilities LOL So I'll double post it here for our own laughter :)

"You're well on your way to getting that job in Nashville Richard. All you need is to get your hair cut in a mullet. Your IQ and writing skills meet the qualifications. Good luck with that!"

Uhh...LOL...yeah, your comment is not going to make the cut.

I like your style, though!

FirstTexansFan
02-05-2009, 04:28 PM
Yeah, mine won't go through, but he lets every retard Longhorn fan scream fire Kubiak because he's an Aggie, and they wonder why folks think they're asshats? :)

disaacks3
02-05-2009, 04:30 PM
FWIW - This doesn't look good and will almost certainly cost the team "something". If it does cost them the 4th-rounder it has to stop immediately and forever.

"Sour Grapes" from Injured/IR/Cut players or not, it's in the CBA and all players involved have a case. Most people on the board have no issue with fining a player for violating the terms of his contract - I think the standard needs to go both ways.

While we may all argue that athletes, entertainers, etc. all get paid too much for their "body of work", it IS still a contract agreed to by BOTH parties. The players have a right to expect the 'other side' to live up to their end of the bargain.

Even if it was a freak accident, a jury would likely say that if the Texans weren't engaging in (as far as the contract goes) illegal behavior, then these gentlemen might NOT be contemplating the end of their careers.

As much as it pains me to say this.... Except for the required swipe at Rick Smith that RJ felt the need to take, his article is fairly spot-on. The Texans try to portray themselves as the "White Knights" without character issues. This event calls that perception into question.

My guess is that the Texans are getting ready to be 'stung' by the NFL for this infraction, but little more. In the grand scheme of things, the public lawsuit could do FAR more damage to the teams' reputation than the loss of (at most) a 4th rounder.

GP
02-05-2009, 04:35 PM
FWIW - This doesn't look good and will almost certainly cost the team "something". If it does cost them the 4th-rounder it has to stop immediately and forever.

"Sour Grapes" from Injured/IR/Cut players or not, it's in the CBA and all players involved have a case. Most people on the board have no issue with fining a player for violating the terms of his contract - I think the standard needs to go both ways.

While we may all argue that athletes, entertainers, etc. all get paid too much for their "body of work", it IS still a contract agreed to by BOTH parties. The players have a right to expect the 'other side' to live up to their end of the bargain.

Even if it was a freak accident, a jury would likely say that if the Texans weren't engaging in (as far as the contract goes) illegal behavior, then these gentlemen might NOT be contemplating the end of their careers.

As much as it pains me to say this.... Except for the required swipe at Rick Smith that RJ felt the need to take, his article is fairly spot-on. The Texans try to portray themselves as the "White Knights" without character issues. This event calls that perception into question.

My guess is that the Texans are getting ready to be 'stung' by the NFL for this infraction, but little more. In the grand scheme of things, the public lawsuit could do FAR more damage to the teams' reputation than the loss of (at most) a 4th rounder.

Brilliantly said. Bravo.

Rep your way.

And all it does is give RJ a boost, btw, for the Texans to have pulled this stupid stuff. I don't think it goes deeper than this. But if it does, then I will be very saddened that my team operates this way. If we can't go out and get some guys with questionable and shaky character issues, then why are sitting there breaking rules as if character and integrity DOESN'T matter.

Dumb move. Period.

steelbtexan
02-05-2009, 04:54 PM
Schlereth & King say this is a standard practice in all NFL mini camps.

These guys are bitter because they got cut. Stephenson recorded practices hoping to get paid once he saw that he couldn't cut it & was going to be cut.

I'm not suprised by Dick Justices response because he is a pansy.

All of the good teams do hand-chicken fighting. I dont consider these to be contract drills anymore than 2 kids playig slap jack on the playground.

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 04:59 PM
Schlereth & King say this is a standard practice in all NFL mini camps.

These guys are bitter because they got cut. Stephenson recorded practices hoping to get paid once he saw that he couldn't cut it & was going to be cut.

I'm not suprised by Dick Justices response because he is a pansy.

All of the good teams do hand-chicken fighting. I dont consider these to be contract drills anymore than 2 kids playig slap jack on the playground.

The team saw enough in Stevenson to keep him on IR all yaer, so in other words he was not cut.

Texans_Chick
02-05-2009, 05:00 PM
My take is here...."Hey the Texans are featured on ESPN! Oh wait, this is ungood (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/02/hey_the_texans_are_featured_on_1.html)."

On its face, this looks not good. That being said, I figure we should let the whole process come out because we don't have everyone's point of view. I can't fathom an innocent reason for the video, but who knows, maybe there is one.

Oh, and this is another illustration of a story becoming a bigger one if there is video. ESPN wouldn't have run this story but for the hidden video. Stories with video always get bigger run than stories without video.

The Pencil Neck
02-05-2009, 05:20 PM
I'm still pissed that this could cost the team a draft pick.

I thought the NFL had already investigated this and rejected it.

dtran04
02-05-2009, 05:20 PM
Fred Weary is going against Stevenson. Makes it much more interesting. He's backing the Texans. There are alot of good quotes so give it a read.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/sports/020509_Texans_Drills_Offseason

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 05:23 PM
I thought the NFL had already investigated this and rejected it.

I think the Management Commitee denied one of Stevenson's claims, but I don't think the NFL has investigate the team for this yet.

Wolf
02-05-2009, 05:27 PM
I never have been to any of the practices, my first thought is that you have a bunch of guys going through drills, And esp the ones that are fighting to make the team, get a little competitive or tries to make a first impression on the coaching staff (even without pads) and the competitive fire starts going between players and they start to do a little more... Coaches see this and even though it is no contact, don't condone it or doesn't encourage it..

could I be off here?

silly as this may sound , when I go out and practice softball now, even at 38, I say before practice, that I won't do this or do that, but once I am out in the outfield, I end up going full out, diving for balls if I have to. As a kid playing other sports, even messing around, I went full out.. Dad had taught me that "you practice how you play"

Now I know this is apples and oranges to an NFL player and what they do, I just wonder if some of the guys mindsets are about the same. Non contact drills and once you get someone going against you, one DE is going through the motions and wants to just "show a bit more and get past the OL", the offensive linemen shows a little more competitiveness "shows a little more" to keep the DE in check , so to speak

I may be misunderstanding the whole process that goes on in the non-contact drills, so someone ,please, set me straight if my thinking is wrong

this was my thoughts earlier and I am not saying it is right or wrong

Regarding the alleged rules violations by the Texans, Weary acknowledged they happened, but he also said the Texans tried to take precautions against anyone getting hurt.

"It did happen," Weary said. "Guys did get hurt. The coaches stopped them after that.

"In the Texans' defense they did tell us what was going on. They did give us parameters, like going half-speed during the drills. But when guys are trying to make the team, those parameters go out the window."

Weary recalled one such instance involving Texans defensive tackle Tim Bulman.

"Coaches will say we're not trying to hurt anyone and they would ask the offensive guys to let the defensive guys finish the drill," Weary said. But you've got guys like Tim Bulman, who was a practice squad guy at the time.

"He bull-rushes a guy and the offensive lineman has to be a football player and understand this is not half-speed. He becomes competitive and sometimes people get hurt."

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/sports/020509_Texans_Drills_Offseason

TexanSam
02-05-2009, 05:33 PM
Why has this story just now come out?? It happened in May 2008 and now Dan Stevenson decides to go public with it?

The Pencil Neck
02-05-2009, 05:35 PM
Why has this story just now come out?? It happened in May 2008 and now Dan Stevenson decides to go public with it?


The whole thing seems fishy to me.

HOU-TEX
02-05-2009, 05:46 PM
The whole thing seems fishy to me.

That's why I think many are over-reacting. It probably would be a non-issue if espn wouldn't have gotten ahold of it.

b0ng
02-05-2009, 06:29 PM
I'm not worried about it. Losing a draft pick would suck, but these are the kinds of things that get forgotten after a little while.

And no, this won't stop me from rooting for the team, or even looking at them in a different light.

Fred Weary respect-o-meter status: Stratospheric

Texans_Chick
02-05-2009, 06:31 PM
Why has this story just now come out?? It happened in May 2008 and now Dan Stevenson decides to go public with it?

Most people who have been done wrong by their employer would prefer to work it out with them. If that doesn't work, then they take the next step.

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 07:53 PM
Most people who have been done wrong by their employer would prefer to work it out with them. If that doesn't work, then they take the next step.

But what hasn't worked out for Stevenson? He's still on the roster.

TimeKiller
02-05-2009, 07:55 PM
Most people who have been done wrong by their employer would prefer to work it out with them. If that doesn't work, then they take the next step.

Yikes, who wants in on that conversation?

"I think I should be paid for what my career was going to amount to."

"You were."

b0ng
02-05-2009, 08:00 PM
Yikes, who wants in on that conversation?

"I think I should be paid for what my career was going to amount to."

"You were."

*Alex Gibbs appears in the corner*

*Cut-blocks Dan Stevenson*

Runner
02-05-2009, 08:54 PM
But what hasn't worked out for Stevenson? He's still on the roster.

There is a big difference between being on an NFL roster for a couple of years and earning real playing time. In the latter case, you have a chance to end up making millions in bonuses. Whether we believe he would have earned playing time or not, he didn't get a chance due to the team's actions.

=================================

Case 1:
Team holds drills prohibited by collective bargaining agreement and player gets injured for season.

Case 2: Player crashes motorcycle he shouldn't have been riding according to his contract and is out for season.

In case 2 fans blame the player. In case 1, it appears many think it is OK because those are the risks the player takes. I disagree and think the team does have responsibility.

==================================

This doesn't appear to be just sour grapes from the injured players - apparently the team's player rep told Kubiak it was against the agreement at the time. That tells me other players must have complained to him and asked him to take action.

Texans_Chick
02-05-2009, 09:55 PM
There is a big difference between being on an NFL roster for a couple of years and earning real playing time. In the latter case, you have a chance to end up making millions in bonuses. Whether we believe he would have earned playing time or not, he didn't get a chance due to the team's actions.

=================================

Case 1:
Team holds drills prohibited by collective bargaining agreement and player gets injured for season.

Case 2: Player crashes motorcycle he shouldn't have been riding according to his contract and is out for season.

In case 2 fans blame the player. In case 1, it appears many think it is OK because those are the risks the player takes. I disagree and think the team does have responsibility.

==================================

This doesn't appear to be just sour grapes from the injured players - apparently the team's player rep told Kubiak it was against the agreement at the time. That tells me other players must have complained to him and asked him to take action.


There's a process in place to take care of that player who gets injured while playing. Something evidently broke down in that process. Sometimes there are disputes as to when someone got injured.

Runner
02-05-2009, 10:14 PM
There's a process in place to take care of that player who gets injured while playing. Something evidently broke down in that process. Sometimes there are disputes as to when someone got injured.

Yes there is a process, and it is being followed right now, I'm sure. The issue I see here is if he was injured in a drill the team shouldn't have been running. I don't think this is that big a deal as far as a rules violation. I'm sure there are interpretations of non-contact, and I know many many teams violate this rule. That isn't my point.

I just get irritated by the way most teams - not just the Texans - treat these non-star players as interchangeable pieces of meat. If these guys were injured in drills they shouldn't have been in, then the team is at fault. It isn't a matter of these guys "manning up" or whatever. It is a matter of the team not following the agreement they negotiated and signed.

There will always be people defending the team because as fans they can't fit the team doing anything wrong into their world view. I am pretty darn sure the players don't see it that way, and issues like this should considered when fans discuss the players' loyalty (and lack thereof) to their teams.

Tailgate
02-05-2009, 10:39 PM
Yes there is a process, and it is being followed right now, I'm sure. The issue I see here is if he was injured in a drill the team shouldn't have been running. I don't think this is that big a deal as far as a rules violation. I'm sure there are interpretations of non-contact, and I know many many teams violate this rule. That isn't my point.

I just get irritated by the way most teams - not just the Texans - treat these non-star players as interchangeable pieces of meat. If these guys were injured in drills they shouldn't have been in, then the team is at fault. It isn't a matter of these guys "manning up" or whatever. It is a matter of the team not following the agreement they negotiated and signed.

There will always be people defending the team because as fans they can't fit the team doing anything wrong into their world view. I am pretty darn sure the players don't see it that way, and issues like this should considered when fans discuss the players' loyalty (and lack thereof) to their teams.

What is it all about anyway? Winning.... thats it. Its obvious now pretty much every team does this same type of stuff. Why? I guess they feel it betters their team and keeps them in tune with everyone else as far as preparations go. We were just unfortunate to have these guys...our guys... really take it the next step with the recording,etc. And now already points in the media are taking this waaaay deeper than it really is. I am not going to buy into it one bit.

Errant Hothy
02-05-2009, 10:47 PM
My biggest concern at this point is that the Commish is going to see that this behaviour is starting to run rampant in the NFL, and to get it to stop it's time to make an example out of one team, or in other words it's time to Pac-man a team. In turn we get hit with the max penalty and it costs us a 4th round draft pick.

We all know that Roger loves to bring the hammer down.

Tailgate
02-05-2009, 11:03 PM
My biggest concern at this point is that the Commish is going to see that this behaviour is starting to run rampant in the NFL, and to get it to stop it's time to make an example out of one team, or in other words it's time to Pac-man a team. In turn we get hit with the max penalty and it costs us a 4th round draft pick.

We all know that Roger loves to bring the hammer down.

Absolutely a possibility. As well as the danger from the pressure the NFL may face due to a possible media snow ball. I think thats why the Texans are taking extra time on making sure they get their response in the best position possible.

b0ng
02-05-2009, 11:35 PM
I just realized something that pisses me off about this. Kubiak gave that "journalist" Richard Justice something to spew about until the regular season begins.

mexican_texan
02-06-2009, 12:16 AM
Why has this story just now come out?? It happened in May 2008 and now Dan Stevenson decides to go public with it?
Because he realizes the Texans won't bring him back. Chukky Okobi is the only guy I would expect to make the roster and guess what? He's the only one not complaining. I think it has more to do with these guys realizing they don't have a future in the NFL, especially after trying to sue an NFL team. They might as well get a paycheck before fading into obscurity.

Also, Mark Schlerith, who played under Coach Gibbs in Denver, says this is how he ran things and Shaun King said successful NFL teams do the same. He actually credited offseason contact drills for our improvement.

barrett
02-06-2009, 02:15 AM
For what it's worth the story isn't listed anymore on their headlines section at espn.com. An hour ago when I first read this story it was about half way down.

However, the quarter-pounder with cheese ad is still going strong.

Go Texans.

mussop
02-06-2009, 03:26 AM
whoop de doo!!!!!

BigBull17
02-06-2009, 08:28 AM
My biggest concern at this point is that the Commish is going to see that this behaviour is starting to run rampant in the NFL, and to get it to stop it's time to make an example out of one team, or in other words it's time to Pac-man a team. In turn we get hit with the max penalty and it costs us a 4th round draft pick.

We all know that Roger loves to bring the hammer down.

Yeah, and we are just the Texans... They will find a way th take more.

TEXANS84
02-06-2009, 08:46 AM
Yikes, who wants in on that conversation?

"I think I should be paid for what my career was going to amount to."

"You were."

But you could also reference players like Brisel and Bullman, players that rode the practice squad for years and eventually made it to either the starting lineup or regular rotation swing man.

HoustonFrog
02-06-2009, 09:34 AM
My biggest concern at this point is that the Commish is going to see that this behaviour is starting to run rampant in the NFL, and to get it to stop it's time to make an example out of one team, or in other words it's time to Pac-man a team. In turn we get hit with the max penalty and it costs us a 4th round draft pick.

We all know that Roger loves to bring the hammer down.

And this is what I said earlier in this conversation when people were saying it wasn't a big deal and that everyone does it. It is a big deal when injuries have hurt your line in the past. It doesn't matter WHO got hurt as much as the repeated warnings and that others could have gotten hurt. Well the league might know that people do this but it is never out there for public consumption and they don't catch everyone. So Roger could easily set an example for those who are doing it.

ArlingtonTexan
02-06-2009, 09:57 AM
And this is what I said earlier in this conversation when people were saying it wasn't a big deal and that everyone does it. It is a big deal when injuries have hurt your line in the past. It doesn't matter WHO got hurt as much as the repeated warnings and that others could have gotten hurt. Well the league might know that people do this but it is never out there for public consumption and they don't catch everyone. So Roger could easily set an example for those who are doing it.

Bunches frats haze, and everybody knows frats haze, but as long as no one really gets injured or the injured are taken care of properly, it is ignored. Once the issue gets into the public, the offending frat is going to get punished and maybe more severely than they should, even if they are not the worst offenders.

TexansLucky13
02-06-2009, 09:59 AM
Much ado about nothing. ESPN ran out of news material a day after the Super Bowl, because no one gives a **** about the Steelers.

TimeKiller
02-06-2009, 10:00 AM
I just get irritated by the way most teams - not just the Texans - treat these non-star players as interchangeable pieces of meat. If these guys were injured in drills they shouldn't have been in, then the team is at fault. It isn't a matter of these guys "manning up" or whatever. It is a matter of the team not following the agreement they negotiated and signed.
You act as if the players aren't willing participants in the practices. It's been stated that the coaches gave a guideline to go "half speed" during the work-out and the players are the ones who took it a step too far...and then another step....and another....then "oops, I'm hurt". What is Kubiak to do? Get in between them and wave a copy of the CBA in their face?

Dan Stevenson holds as much responsibility for his injury as the Texans do, however he seems to think the Texans should be the only ones held accountable. He's gone to great length to embarass the franchise, to get himself ahead on a technicality and let everyone else deal with the repercussions including the people who backed his original complaint but don't back this mess he's brought up now. I call that a snake-in-the-grass.

But you could also reference players like Brisel and Bullman, players that rode the practice squad for years and eventually made it to either the starting lineup or regular rotation swing man.

Oh, you mean guys like Brisel, who MANNED UP when mofo's broke his nose during practice?

Guys like Bulman who said, "Now or never, do or die" and DID.

Dan Stevenson chose "die" because he knew he didn't have half the toughness of Brisel or half the attitude and will of Bulman.

Texans_Chick
02-06-2009, 10:04 AM
I just get irritated by the way most teams - not just the Texans - treat these non-star players as interchangeable pieces of meat. If these guys were injured in drills they shouldn't have been in, then the team is at fault. It isn't a matter of these guys "manning up" or whatever. It is a matter of the team not following the agreement they negotiated and signed.

There will always be people defending the team because as fans they can't fit the team doing anything wrong into their world view. I am pretty darn sure the players don't see it that way, and issues like this should considered when fans discuss the players' loyalty (and lack thereof) to their teams.

I think there are two issues. Illegal drills. And player injuries.

The team is supposed to pay for injuries that occur during practice whether or not a drill was illegal.

Stevenson clearly was wanting his injury taken care of. It wasn't.

So this is when the whole illegal drills stuff comes up.

If I were to completely speculate based on public information, it appears that something was screwed up in Stevenson's paperwork on his grievance. That whoever screwed up that something wanted to fix their goofup by leveraging the illegal drills information in a way to get the Texans to actually pay up.

I think it is wrong when teams or fans think of players as pieces of meat. I do think that especially in comparison to the past, Kubiak doesn't care where you are drafted--he wants the best players on the field. He has a history of giving no name players a chance.

Dread-Head
02-06-2009, 10:05 AM
who snitched!?!?

HoustonFrog
02-06-2009, 10:12 AM
Bunches frats haze, and everybody knows frats haze, but as long as no one really gets injured or the injured are taken care of properly, it is ignored. Once the issue gets into the public, the offending frat is going to get punished and maybe more severely than they should, even if they are not the worst offenders.

Exactly....its the whole..."if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying" mentality..until you get caught and then you are on your own. But they had their fair warning in this case..if I read it correctly.

Errant Hothy
02-06-2009, 10:22 AM
I think there are two issues. Illegal drills. And player injuries.

The team is supposed to pay for injuries that occur during practice whether or not a drill was illegal.

Stevenson clearly was wanting his injury taken care of. It wasn't.

So this is when the whole illegal drills stuff comes up.

If I were to completely speculate based on public information, it appears that something was screwed up in Stevenson's paperwork on his grievance. That whoever screwed up that something wanted to fix their goofup by leveraging the illegal drills information in a way to get the Texans to actually pay up.

I think it is wrong when teams or fans think of players as pieces of meat. I do think that especially in comparison to the past, Kubiak doesn't care where you are drafted--he wants the best players on the field. He has a history of giving no name players a chance.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if Stevenson's injury wasn't atken care of; what was he/the team doing while he was on IR for all of last season?

Yankee_In_TX
02-06-2009, 10:37 AM
But you could also reference players like Brisel and Bullman, players that rode the practice squad for years and eventually made it to either the starting lineup or regular rotation swing man.

'Must spread rep'

Fair counter-argument.

ArlingtonTexan
02-06-2009, 10:42 AM
Exactly....its the whole..."if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying" mentality..until you get caught and then you are on your own. But they had their fair warning in this case..if I read it correctly.

It seems that way and there is some question about how the Texans handled the injuries.

Runner
02-06-2009, 10:44 AM
You act as if the players aren't willing participants in the practices.

Since the players - and from what I know of these situation not just the ones that got injured - had the union rep complain to Kubiak at the time, I'd say they were less than willing participants. Any player could refuse to participate, of course, but they'd likely be cut later on. The problem is the teams have a lot of unchecked power.

Football teams are companies and players are employees. The fact that it is a dangerous profession means the employer should take more care, not less. I don't think any of us would be happy if our companies put us in dangerous or "illegal" situations where we had to comply or lose our jobs. I don't see why football should be any different. The players really are people with lives and families and concerns just like us.

I'd be willing to bet that if this story was about the Titans rather than the "good guy" organization of the Texans it would be seen in a different light.

b0ng
02-06-2009, 10:47 AM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but if Stevenson's injury wasn't atken care of; what was he/the team doing while he was on IR for all of last season?

This is what I don't get. Why is stevenson acting like he was done wrong when he wasn't cut after his injury? Did he sit on IR without being compensated? Did he not get his shoulder surgery paid for? Did his rehab cost him money? Is he that mad that he got hurt during a football drill because I don't see where the team just used him up and tossed him to the side. Out of the 3 players bringing this up, Stevenson stayed on IR, Black signed with the Jags, and Okkobi is the one I see as having a real beef because he was cut AND not signed by another team.

I think it's interesting that Weary doesn't want to support this guy. And he's a fellow player.

Errant Hothy
02-06-2009, 10:54 AM
From everything I can gather surgery is not always needed to fix a torn labrum.

Which is leading me to think that Stevenson wants the surgery and the team is taking a more conservative approach, and this is causing the issue.

Update:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6249413.html

Weary refused to be interviewed by ESPN and said he didn’t know his affidavit was going to be part of a story on ESPN.

“I signed the affidavit to help Dan’s grievance,” Weary said. “I was contacted by ESPN, and I wouldn’t do an interview with them. Dan texted me that he’d already done an interview and that the team needed to get what they deserved. That wasn’t the kind of situation I wanted to put myself in.”

Stevenson underwent surgery on his right shoulder on June 11 in Los Angeles.

“I’m not healthy,” he said. “I’m still rehabbing my shoulder. I’d love to play again. This is something I’ve been doing since I was a kid."

Ciapciak said the Texans sent Stevenson, who spent last season on injured reserve, to Los Angeles to continue his rehabilitation.

“Two days ago, they bought him a one-way ticket to L.A. and didn’t give him a choice,” Ciapciak said.

To me this is sounding more and more like Stevenson is out for a pay day and nothing more. He doesn't care what effects this has on the team. Not that his motives excuse the team from any wrong doing.

Honoring Earl 34
02-06-2009, 11:02 AM
In my opinion the Texans have fairly mild practices ... as far as hitting goes ... when I've attended training camp . I can't see the coaches wanting them to kill each other but as been mentioned someone wants a job and someone is out of the league .

Having played highschool football in the late 70's , these guys would be amazed at what we had to do . We were just on the good side of the Junction Boys . We played both ways in Aug/Sept and getting a drink was for sissies but salt tablets were ok . In the offseason , if the weather was bad , you paired up with someone your size , grabbed the community mouthpiece out of the igloo , put on boxing gloves and beat the hell out of each other for two minutes . Where was Richard Justice back then ?

dalemurphy
02-06-2009, 11:06 AM
In my opinion the Texans have fairly mild practices ... as far as hitting goes ... when I've attended training camp . I can't see the coaches wanting them to kill each other but as been mentioned someone wants a job and someone is out of the league .

Having played highschool football in the late 70's , these guys would be amazed at what we had to do . We were just on the good side of the Junction Boys . We played both ways in Aug/Sept and getting a drink was for sissies but salt tablets were ok . In the offseason , if the weather was bad , you paired up with someone your size , grabbed the community mouthpiece out of the igloo , put on boxing gloves and beat the hell out of each other for two minutes . Where was Richard Justice back then ?


I understand Stevenson's grievance. He's a fringe player that has never gotten paid and is trying to work himself into the league. If he was injured in a minicamp and was not being financially taken care of, he should do what he needs to in order to be compensated. I get that. Selfishly, as a fan, I just don't want to lose a draft pick.

Errant Hothy
02-06-2009, 11:10 AM
I understand Stevenson's grievance. He's a fringe player that has never gotten paid and is trying to work himself into the league. If he was injured in a minicamp and was not being financially taken care of, he should do what he needs to in order to be compensated. I get that. Selfishly, as a fan, I just don't want to lose a draft pick.

Since he was, and still is, on IR (and by extension the team); I'm fairly certain he was getting paid according to the terms of the contract he signed. I'm also fairly certain that the team apid for his surgery, his rehab afterwards, and the other assorted costs involved in going to LA to have the surgery.

What more should he be getting?

Runner
02-06-2009, 11:11 AM
Given the number of injuries the Texans rack up every year, I don't think the players are all that coddled. I don't think modern players are a bunch of wimps - I think they hit each other much harder though.

Honoring Earl 34
02-06-2009, 11:19 AM
Given the number of injuries the Texans rack up every year, I don't think the players are all that coddled. I don't think modern players are a bunch of wimps - I think they hit each other much harder though.

They've had alot of injuries no matter who was the coach .

This stuff and other shady dealings have gone on forever . The things below have nothing to do with the Texans but it shows the world of the NFL .

http://www.amazon.com/Youre-Its-Just-Bruise-Outrageous/dp/0312136277

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072002/met_9965297.html


KEENAN MCCARDELL, JAGUARS WIDE RECEIVER (1996-2001)- The doctor numbs him with novocain with the needle, and he just takes a scalpel and cuts into his leg, you know, and then they just start pushing the bruise's blood out. It looked like grape jelly. It's, like, "Is this really happening right here in the training room?"

http://espn.go.com/page2/tvlistings/show129transcript.html

Ole Miss Texan
02-06-2009, 11:22 AM
“Two days ago, they bought him a one-way ticket to L.A. and didn’t give him a choice,” Ciapciak said.

:spit: Hahaha.

badboy
02-06-2009, 11:30 AM
I understand Stevenson's grievance. He's a fringe player that has never gotten paid and is trying to work himself into the league. If he was injured in a minicamp and was not being financially taken care of, he should do what he needs to in order to be compensated. I get that. Selfishly, as a fan, I just don't want to lose a draft pick.If I lose my 4th round pick Rashad Johnson FS, I am going to be pretty mad.

Runner
02-06-2009, 11:39 AM
They've had alot of injuries no matter who was the coach.

Agreed. Of course Capers broke this rule too.

Im not attacking Kubiak. I consider it an organizational problem. It might be time for the team to try something different, like follow their agreements.

The team's history is mired in mediocrity at best; maybe the contact in OTAs isn't as beneficial as learning the new schemes would be? It might be worth a try, and maybe that would be the silver lining if the league comes down on them hard.

Honoring Earl 34
02-06-2009, 11:49 AM
Agreed. Of course Capers broke this rule too.

Im not attacking Kubiak. I consider it an organizational problem. It might be time for the team to try something different, like follow their agreements.

The team's history is mired in mediocrity at best; maybe the contact in OTAs isn't as beneficial as learning the new schemes would be? It might be worth a try, and maybe that would be the silver lining if the league comes down on them hard.

They probably did last year so Gibbs could hit the ground running . To me when you pay players the kind of money they make ... you protect your assets .

I posted earlier that I went to two open practices last year and they really didn't hit . I think this is why they got their butts kicked by to physical teams to start the year .

At the end of the day I really believe this is Justice pouting that his buddy was fired and is going to milk this until the teet runs dry .

False Start
02-06-2009, 11:52 AM
Adam Clanton interviewed Fred Weary, and hes not exactly thrilled about it.

Podcast Link: http://www.sportsradio610.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=3417264

InterestedJeff
02-06-2009, 11:56 AM
I played ball for 10 years and when we had no contact days we dressed in shorts, shirts and a helmet. We took the field with the idea that we were gonna have a full speed practice, just no one gets tackled. The line always goes all-out or you dont get to play because the guy next to you IS going all out. All that no contact meant was that we didnt have to wear pads and the sissy runningbacks and wide recievers didnt get tackled. Going half speed is what gets people hurt. It's either go all out or dont go at all.

I'm sorry that these players got hurt but these kind of drills have been going on since little league football. Stevenson is a pathetic rat that didnt get his way. He'll have to live with selling his employer out. The Texans will survive this.

Errant Hothy
02-06-2009, 11:57 AM
The more I read about this, the more I am convinced that Stevenson is just out for money. He does not care about the team, any of the other guys who were injured, or ever playing football in the NFL again. He wants to get paid, wether he get's paid to shut up and go away or he gets paid via a lawsuit he does not care.

This does not excuse the Texans of wrong doing though.

Honoring Earl 34
02-06-2009, 11:59 AM
Adam Clanton interviewed Fred Weary, and hes not exactly thrilled about it.

Podcast Link: http://www.sportsradio610.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=3417264

Sounds like Fred wishes he wouldn't have signed this .

Runner
02-06-2009, 12:02 PM
They probably did last year so Gibbs could hit the ground running . To me when you pay players the kind of money they make ... you protect your assets .

I posted earlier that I went to two open practices last year and they really didn't hit . I think this is why they got their butts kicked by to physical teams to start the year .

At the end of the day I really believe this is Justice pouting that his buddy was fired and is going to milk this until the teet runs dry .

Truth be told, I haven't even read the Justice article. I'm just adding my opinion on the subject matter based on what I've gathered from players over the past few years.

Honoring Earl 34
02-06-2009, 12:08 PM
Truth be told, I haven't even read the Justice article. I'm just adding my opinion on the subject matter based on what I've gathered from players over the past few years.

The Justice thing started when they fired Riley . Maybe Riley took Stephenson's and Black's side against the team and like in the Godfather ... you don't go against the family .

It's been said alot in pro sports ... if you ain't cheatin , you ain't trying . That's why coaches have illegal practices and players do performance enhancing drugs ... to get the edge .

Ole Miss Texan
02-06-2009, 12:15 PM
Going half speed is what gets people hurt. It's either go all out or dont go at all.


A truer statement could not be made.

Runner
02-06-2009, 12:30 PM
A truer statement could not be made.



I thought Kubiak's defense was that he told them to go half speed. Doesn't he know this, or was this Kubiak's way over covering his butt, knowing they'd go full speed anyway? "I told them to go half speed, but gosh darn it the kids got excited and went full speed. Not my fault".

Or maybe the original bromide is wrong.

TimeKiller
02-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Since the players - and from what I know of these situation not just the ones that got injured - had the union rep complain to Kubiak at the time, I'd say they were less than willing participants. Any player could refuse to participate, of course, but they'd likely be cut later on. The problem is the teams have a lot of unchecked power.
So what exactly is the TEAM supposed to do when the players are the ones escalating the practice intensity? For all your good points, this is a question you don't answer.


Football teams are companies and players are employees. The fact that it is a dangerous profession means the employer should take more care, not less. I don't think any of us would be happy if our companies put us in dangerous or "illegal" situations where we had to comply or lose our jobs. I don't see why football should be any different. The players really are people with lives and families and concerns just like us.
Again you say the team made the situation, I suppose we'll agree to disagree. I say the players made the situation, the team didn't stop them or frankly, didn't care to because it's commonplace. I see this more as getting caught from apathy more than getting caught with wrongful intentions.

I'd be willing to bet that if this story was about the Titans rather than the "good guy" organization of the Texans it would be seen in a different light.
This is being seen in a pretty negative light. What light are you refering to?

Runner
02-06-2009, 12:45 PM
So what exactly is the TEAM supposed to do when the players are the ones escalating the practice intensity? For all your good points, this is a question you don't answer.


Again you say the team made the situation, I suppose we'll agree to disagree. I say the players made the situation, the team didn't stop them or frankly, didn't care to because it's commonplace. I see this more as getting caught from apathy more than getting caught with wrongful intentions.

This is being seen in a pretty negative light. What light are you refering to?

I don't take it as a given that the players escalated the intensity. I think the coaches got exactly the intensity they wanted.

The light I was talking about is the defense that the Texans organization couldn't possibly be wrong, but it is the fault of the sniveling, whining, pansy, fourth string player who couldn't make it through an old school high school practices. I'm exaggerating for humor.

And yes, we are going to end up on opposite sides of the fence on this one. Funny thing is, I'm usually a big corporate guy. I've just been seeing to much of the seamy underside lately.

Texans_Chick
02-06-2009, 02:19 PM
I don't take it as a given that the players escalated the intensity. I think the coaches got exactly the intensity they wanted.

The light I was talking about is the defense that the Texans organization couldn't possibly be wrong, but it is the fault of the sniveling, whining, pansy, fourth string player who couldn't make it through an old school high school practices. I'm exaggerating for humor.

And yes, we are going to end up on opposite sides of the fence on this one. Funny thing is, I'm usually a big corporate guy. I've just been seeing to much of the seamy underside lately.

I think the side I'm going to take is to hold my powder until the entirety of the facts come out. There's really no sense slamming the player or the team until everything comes out.

It's been my experience in disputes that often BOTH sides feel like they are right based on the information and assumptions they are working from. Happens a lot. I used to do a lot of mediations, and usually when people really got all the facts out on the table, both sides ended up being surprised by misunderstandings and assumptions they were working under.

And sometimes when lawyers are involved with a situation, winning and advocacy becomes more important than coming to resolutions. finding the actual truth, or coming to an outcome that is a win-win for all involved.

If this came to the point of an ESPN story, it means that this situation turned into a lose-lose. The Texans look evil and the player looks complaining and untrustworthy.

bigfan77801
02-06-2009, 04:31 PM
"The biggest thing for me, first and foremost, is to get made whole," Stevenson said. "At the same token, this is something that I want to protect players in the future.

My take so far.

Wolf
02-06-2009, 04:55 PM
I put a thread on NSZ about this blog, doesn't have to do about the Texans, but the lack of coverage over the months from the Chronicle
Don't worry, he didn't mention RJ but there was some wondering about the other sports writer
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/ballz/2009/02/chronicle_drops_the_ball_on_te.php

NSZ thread(wasn't sure where to put a newspaper bashing thread)
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums//showthread.php?t=58561

Ole Miss Texan
02-06-2009, 05:33 PM
I thought Kubiak's defense was that he told them to go half speed. Doesn't he know this, or was this Kubiak's way over covering his butt, knowing they'd go full speed anyway? "I told them to go half speed, but gosh darn it the kids got excited and went full speed. Not my fault".


I think there's a huge gray area when it comes to "speeds" of practice. The reasoning I can see injuries happening while going "half speed" is strictly in the trenches. The way the OL use their muscles in the legs, back and arms, they can strain those muscles easier when going at speeds they're not used to. This mostly happening during scrimmage vs. one on one drills. The OL works so much with each other that going at a speed their not used to can throw the timing off. You can tell the Defensive Linemen to go "half speed" but what does that mean!? If they go half speed, they're never going to disrupt the play, hardly ever. That's fine for some scrimmage when QBs and WRs are working on timing but not when it's full scrimmage and the Def. is trying to learn moves, stunts, etc.

It sounds trivial but I really don't think it is. I would think most of OL's injuries would come in the arms, shoulders and backs due to this. A DE goes inside and by the RT/RG, the OG is going half speed and puts his hand on the DEs shoulder and INSTANTLY his shoulder is in an awkward position. A DE going to fast, the G isnt' ready and he tweaks the shoulder. Doesn't sit out b/c the coach will yell at him and he's playing with a slightly hurt shoulder. This is compounded since the OL get so many 'minor' injuries all the time and play/practice through it. Anyone coming off of a more sever injury and this instantly aggrivates it.

The main point is your doing something you're unfamiliar with. You can go slow and warm up but any prolonged period of going at a speed that you rarely use sets up a higher percentage of a player becoming injured.

Runner
02-06-2009, 05:45 PM
I think the side I'm going to take is to hold my powder until the entirety of the facts come out. There's really no sense slamming the player or the team until everything comes out.



I'm not concerned about the outcome of the Texans v Stevenson deal. This is just public corroboration of thoughts I've had for a while, so my powder went off.

barrett
02-06-2009, 05:57 PM
I thought Kubiak's defense was that he told them to go half speed. Doesn't he know this, or was this Kubiak's way over covering his butt, knowing they'd go full speed anyway? "I told them to go half speed, but gosh darn it the kids got excited and went full speed. Not my fault".

Or maybe the original bromide is wrong.

this is one hell of a Kubiak impression! spot on!



p.s.

the quarter pounder ad is still going strong but the news hasn't resurfaced on the espn site. it also never made headlines on nfl.com

quarter pounder sure sounds good....

TimeKiller
02-06-2009, 05:57 PM
I don't take it as a given that the players escalated the intensity. I think the coaches got exactly the intensity they wanted.
I'd almost be willing to bet money it's a little from column A, a little from column B. You can take it how you want it but Fred Weary laid it out pretty well that guys start escalating their efforts when they get into the practices.

The light I was talking about is the defense that the Texans organization couldn't possibly be wrong, but it is the fault of the sniveling, whining, pansy, fourth string player who couldn't make it through an old school high school practices. I'm exaggerating for humor.
Maybe you should look somewhere besides these boards? ESPN projected the Texans pretty negatively in the report. My defense of the Texans isn't blind loyalty though, it's more just not siding with Stevenson.

It is what it is, surely the Texans are at fault for breaking the rules but I find Stevenson's role in this troubling. He's in it for money, his 15 minutes and hoping his face on ESPN gives him a shot elsewhere...which he probably won't get. It seems like he knew he was nothing in the NFL, so he's getting his while he can no matter the sacrifice. People like that are hard to support, for me anyway.

barrett
02-06-2009, 06:16 PM
i don't know how any of you can speculate on what his intentions were or what the teams thinking was. the only thing worth debating is what, if anything, the ramifications wil be?

the appropriate way to view this is with an eye for further information. facts, which will be debated and refuted.

the investigation that the NFL does will be much more in depth than anything the press or most certainly the opinionated, "investigative" texans-talk posters can know about. they will have access to much more information than any one else.

i'll sit and wait for a ruling.

edo783
02-06-2009, 06:35 PM
It's interesting that when Kubes came here, there was a fair amount of conversation/print about how much less physical his practice sessions were than those run by Capers. I looked at the video and frankly I thought it was pretty mild from a contact standpoint thing. IMO, the no contact rule was meant to not have tackling going on. Pushing and shoving should be OK. I'm not sure how the heck you could practice football without at least pushing and shoving going on. I suppose you could just walk through stuff, but I don't see that accomplishing much.

b0ng
02-06-2009, 06:49 PM
It's interesting that when Kubes came here, there was a fair amount of conversation/print about how much less physical his practice sessions were than those run by Capers. I looked at the video and frankly I thought it was pretty mild from a contact standpoint thing. IMO, the no contact rule was meant to not have tackling going on. Pushing and shoving should be OK. I'm not sure how the heck you could practice football without at least pushing and shoving going on. I suppose you could just walk through stuff, but I don't see that accomplishing much.

I think that might be the spirit of the rule with "no contact" but at the same time, when you get lawyers and the like involved, the spirit gets tossed out the window rather quickly.

That drill was pretty weak if you ask me, but at the same time, I think I saw maybe a 10 second clip on ESPN. Honestly, I think that the real variable is how hard Goodell wants to come down on the Texans. I have no clue what he's going to do and that's the scary part.

Shaft75
02-06-2009, 06:59 PM
It is what it is, surely the Texans are at fault for breaking the rules but I find Stevenson's role in this troubling. He's in it for money, his 15 minutes and hoping his face on ESPN gives him a shot elsewhere...which he probably won't get. It seems like he knew he was nothing in the NFL, so he's getting his while he can no matter the sacrifice. People like that are hard to support, for me anyway.

I agree. Stevenson is exploiting the Texans for monetary reasons and notariety. Maybe someone oughta dig a little bit more into this guy and see what type of credibility they find. Hell, that is what all major companies do before they go to court.

GP
02-06-2009, 09:32 PM
I think the side I'm going to take is to hold my powder until the entirety of the facts come out. There's really no sense slamming the player or the team until everything comes out.

It's been my experience in disputes that often BOTH sides feel like they are right based on the information and assumptions they are working from. Happens a lot. I used to do a lot of mediations, and usually when people really got all the facts out on the table, both sides ended up being surprised by misunderstandings and assumptions they were working under.

And sometimes when lawyers are involved with a situation, winning and advocacy becomes more important than coming to resolutions. finding the actual truth, or coming to an outcome that is a win-win for all involved.

If this came to the point of an ESPN story, it means that this situation turned into a lose-lose. The Texans look evil and the player looks complaining and untrustworthy.

BINGO.

It's a lose-lose.

Teams need to abide by the rules. Had the rule been abided by, this would not even be an issue or a story or a 4th-round pick if the league decides to punish the Texans severely for it.

If it was a "weak ass drill" and "nothing to be concerned about," then why even do it all? If something is THAT far from being realistic speed-wise, then you're only running a risk of punishment instead of reaping the rewards of the drill. This is mind bottling.

Norg
02-07-2009, 02:05 AM
well the players went throw the mini drills knowing thy didnt have 2 it was in there contract

but if a coach tells u 2 do something how can u say no when your career is on the line he had not made the team yet


and how would that come across if the coaches needed to take a look at your skill sets

its like a double edge sword IMO

sadly i work a physical job and if i got hurt there is really not much i can do .... at least they get to sue there job LOL

Vinny
02-07-2009, 11:26 AM
It's interesting that when Kubes came here, there was a fair amount of conversation/print about how much less physical his practice sessions were than those run by Capers. I looked at the video and frankly I thought it was pretty mild from a contact standpoint thing. IMO, the no contact rule was meant to not have tackling going on. Pushing and shoving should be OK. I'm not sure how the heck you could practice football without at least pushing and shoving going on. I suppose you could just walk through stuff, but I don't see that accomplishing much.
I've heard guys were getting pancaked in some of the drills and if you are a 300 pounder that isn't something to take lightly at any time. The team broke the rules (the rules that are set in place to protect the players) and 3 guys had season ending injuries in those drills....I bet the team doesn't get off lightly.

Second Honeymoon
02-07-2009, 11:56 AM
if we lose anything more than a 5th Round draft pick, i may just lose it.

one thing this does is show just how stubborn Gibbs is. dude needs to realize that he doesnt make the rules and that sometimes you have to do stuff you dont want to do. his 'us against the world' style of coaching is great when it just an act, but when the world is against you, you may have to grow up and accept things the way they are.

its obvious Gibbs doesnt like the rules and he just needs to realize that it doesnt matter what he thinks. keeping his men and himself away from the media is one thing, but being outright indignant towards the way things are supposed to be done is irresponsible and could hurt our team now.

hopefully it will be just $$ and maybe a game suspension for the coaching staff involved. we cant afford to waste early draft picks because our leadership thought they were above the law.

Vinny
02-07-2009, 11:59 AM
if we lose anything more than a 5th Round draft pick, i may just lose it.

one thing this does is show just how stubborn Gibbs is. dude needs to realize that he doesnt make the rules and that sometimes you have to do stuff you dont want to do. his 'us against the world' style of coaching is great when it just an act, but when the world is against you, you may have to grow up and accept things the way they are.

its obvious Gibbs doesnt like the rules and he just needs to realize that it doesnt matter what he thinks. keeping his men and himself away from the media is one thing, but being outright indignant towards the way things are supposed to be done is irresponsible and could hurt our team now.

hopefully it will be just $$ and maybe a game suspension for the coaching staff involved. we cant afford to waste early draft picks because our leadership thought they were above the law.
I see two things...how stubborn Gibbs is and how Kubiak doesn't make great decisions at times. These are ongoing themes.

Runner
02-07-2009, 12:35 PM
Going half speed is what gets people hurt. It's either go all out or dont go at all.


A truer statement could not be made.

I'm at a real keyboard for a change and Peek isn't here anymore, so I'll address this with a specific example. There are many times less than full speed workouts are very beneficial - the half speed workouts help player development.

Antwaan Peek always looked good during the pre-season, but somehow his regular season never panned out. He would look very, very fast in camp, blowing by linemen at will. He was always on the news highlights for the day. Very impressive - but then it never seemed to carry over into the regular season.

I asked about this one time, saying Peek really looked good and this would be his breakout year. I was told that appearances are deceiving after having to put up with a rolling of the eyes. Apparently in the drills that were making the highlights, the o-linemen were going half-speed, working on technique. First Step-Balance-Hands First Step-Balance-Hands stuff. Peek was going full speed on his speed rush - the only move he ever had - and looking very good against guys that weren't particularly trying to block him. In the end, the o-linemen were getting better, and Peek was remaining a one trick pony. If Peek had also gone at half speed and tried to learn something else he may have improved too. Maybe he should have tried to learn how to get under a lineman's pads and develop a bull rush; anything to give him more weapons. As it was, I was told Peek would have been easy to block during drills had the lineman cared to - they didn't have to read and react to him (which is a d-lineman's major advantage). They could have just blocked the speed rush every time. Pretty simple.

Trying to point out that Peek wasn't as good as he was showing and the o-line wasn't as bad as they looked didn't get much support either, because people "know what they saw". Sometimes there is a lot more to knowing than seeing.

Runner
02-07-2009, 12:39 PM
I see two things...how stubborn Gibbs is and how Kubiak doesn't make great decisions at times. These are ongoing themes.

I think it is part of the corporate culture. The coaches want to show what tough guys they are, they think it makes the players tough guys, and to hell with the rule.

Given the Texans record over the years, maybe it is time to lose the one-on-one no pads contact drills and use that time to teach techniques and team play. You know - use that time to "gel" rather than lose a few games during the start of the season as the players learn to play together.

steelbtexan
02-07-2009, 01:01 PM
I'd almost be willing to bet money it's a little from column A, a little from column B. You can take it how you want it but Fred Weary laid it out pretty well that guys start escalating their efforts when they get into the practices.

Maybe you should look somewhere besides these boards? ESPN projected the Texans pretty negatively in the report. My defense of the Texans isn't blind loyalty though, it's more just not siding with Stevenson.

It is what it is, surely the Texans are at fault for breaking the rules but I find Stevenson's role in this troubling. He's in it for money, his 15 minutes and hoping his face on ESPN gives him a shot elsewhere...which he probably won't get. It seems like he knew he was nothing in the NFL, so he's getting his while he can no matter the sacrifice. People like that are hard to support, for me anyway.

Spot On

Stevenson knew he wasn't going to make the Texans roster or any other NFL teams roster. The reason the Texans put him on IR was because they couldn't come to an injury settlement with him. Stevenson is looking to make the most money he can being a marginal player. ESPN paid for this story & he thinks he can make more money with a lawsuit tha an injury settlement.

Every ex-NFL player I've heard talk about this says the Texans practices in OTA's are in line with the other 31 NFL teams. I think it's interesting that the NFLPA decided not to represent Stevenson in this case.

Being a Texan fan I would gladly give up a 4th rd. draft choice every year if we see as much improvement in the OL every year as we've seen this year.

Dan B.
02-07-2009, 02:10 PM
I'm betting even if he fully recovers Stevenson is going to have a very tough time getting another job. No team is going to take someone on who sued their former team and ran to ESPN to humiliate them publicly, especially if this practice is as common as alleged. It's not like he's an all star after all.

Jackie Chiles
02-07-2009, 03:10 PM
If its any consolation the latest piece at the chronicle states that the investigation may take months.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6251101.html

If we are going to lose a 4 my guess would be it wouldn't come from this years draft. It will still suck but I feel like this is such a pivotal off-season for the team that we need everything we can get to get over that hump. If we wind up winning 10 games this year I think the blow of losing a 4 in the following draft would be softened just a bit. Still going to suck but at least its not a 1 like NE had to part with. If we wind up posting another 8-8 or worse and lose that pick I will be more disappointed because it would mean that our needs are still not being adequately filled.

Wolf
02-07-2009, 11:59 PM
At least Texans coach Gary Kubiak had the good sense to call off the illegal drills after a third player suffered a season-ending injury.

You never know what these coaches are thinking. Kubiak might have let eight or nine guys get carted off before it occurred to him that maybe this wasn't his best idea.

Just think how bad the Texans would have been last season if they hadn't cheated. There's your silver lining.

Every once in a while, something happens that peels back the shroud of secrecy on the dark side of the NFL.

That's the side that deals with injury grievances and teams forcing players back onto the field just so they can cut them.

That's what ESPN has done with an Outside The Lines report on the Texans. It's a story that might not have seen the light of day if a player named Dan Stevenson hadn't taken a video device into a meeting room and recorded the illegal practices.

The Texans originally denied his filing, saying, in part, no such drills took place. Then he produced the video.

The video shows players doing full-speed blocking drills without pads. First, the drills are illegal. Second, they're dumb.

There's a reason the NFL's labor agreement allows contact drills only at certain times of the season.

Otherwise, coaches would have players banging on each other 10 months a year. Maybe Kubiak and Alex Gibbs thought they'd toughen up the boys in preparation for camp.

There's also a reason players wear something called "pads." They provide protection.

"Wearing pads puts it out in the open that you're running illegal practices," one player said. "If you're not wearing pads, you can say, ?Well, it got out of hand.'?"

Offseason minicamps and practices are supposed to be more mental work than physical. Six weeks of training camp is plenty of time for blocking and tackling, so why do it in May?

"Because coaches think the Patriots are doing it, and if the Patriots are doing it, then the Giants probably are doing it," the player said. "If the Giants are doing it, then you know the Colts and Titans are doing it. Word gets around, players are afraid to speak up, and coaches start thinking they have to do it."

Had the Texans done it before 2008?


Did they force Fred Weary back on the field before he was healthy so they could cut him and save his salary?


I know it can happen when a team is making a push for the playoffs and the guy at 80% is better than the 2nd teamer at 100% , but my initial reaction, was this is about the dumbest thing you could put as speculation.why the hell would a team purposely put a player in that is injured only to be injured again so you can save his salary?
I almost want to quote him on his blog and blast away. really? Fred Weary? on a zone blocking scheme where movement is critical to an OL?


I should consider the source on that.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9190952/Team's-risk-outweighs-any-reward-?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=5

GP
02-08-2009, 09:06 AM
If its any consolation the latest piece at the chronicle states that the investigation may take months.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6251101.html

If we are going to lose a 4 my guess would be it wouldn't come from this years draft. It will still suck but I feel like this is such a pivotal off-season for the team that we need everything we can get to get over that hump. If we wind up winning 10 games this year I think the blow of losing a 4 in the following draft would be softened just a bit. Still going to suck but at least its not a 1 like NE had to part with. If we wind up posting another 8-8 or worse and lose that pick I will be more disappointed because it would mean that our needs are still not being adequately filled.

To me, losing ANY draft picks is unacceptable. We're not NE...we can't afford to lose any draft picks at all.

Coming off of two straight years with no Round 2 pick is like eating real food again after going two years on army rations. Losing a 4th, at this point, would be horrible.

For the powers-that-be to have decided to go against clear-cut league rules, having CONTACT when there should be none..well, that was THE definition of stupidity. There's really no other description for it.

GP
02-08-2009, 09:09 AM
It's on Outside The Lines right now...I am going to transcribe what I can:

Stevenson says Rick Smith yelled at him, told him he had no integrity: "I felt like he really attacked my character."

(I'll post in spurts, then piece it all together in one single post when it's finished.)

GP
02-08-2009, 09:22 AM
Stevenson: "There's a reason, you know, that drills like these are prohibited in the off-season. Football is dangerous enough as it is, there's high risk of injury. And when you're not wearing the proper pads, you're not protected."

Narrator: During a minicamp practice that the public never saw, offensive lineman Dan Stevenson, trying to make his third team in three years, suffered a shoulder injury that he says might have ended his NFL career. Stevenson filed a grievance against the Texans, saying he was hurt during "Prohibited full contact drills during an offseason minicamp with reckless disregard for the players' health." The NFL management counsel rejected his grievance, citing, among other factors, that the "Texans deny players were required to participate in drills which are explicitly prohibited."

Narrator to Stevenson, as they watch the video clips of the drills: Why did you think to tape this?

Stevenson: I just wanted to see it. I kinda' wanted to see for myself.

Narrator: Why did you tape it?

Stevenson: I think that they can obviously no longer deny that this drill ever happened.

Narrator as the clip turns from showing the drills, to then showing Stevenson's video footage of a Texans computer in Texans offices: What does this tell us?

Stevenson: This is how they break down film.

Narrator: Stevenson took a video camera into the Texans meeting room, and recorded the team's video of the practice off a computer terminal.

GP
02-08-2009, 09:31 AM
Narrator to Stevenson: It seems like you had more in mind than just to shoot the drill, that you knew you had to establish when it was, as much information as you could get.

Stevenson: Without a doubt.

Narrator, as TV shows the Texans' computer monitor playing the archived drill: This is May 9th, 2008...The Texans were prohibited from holding contact drills.

Narrator to Stevenson: What are we seeing here?

Stevenson: Right here you see that it's obviously a one-on-one pass rush drill at the minicamp.

Narrator to TV audience (as the NFL document is shown on screen): Article 36, section 4 of the CBA reads "There will be no contact work (e.g. "live" blocking,...)" According to Stevenson, and several other eye witnesses, Kris Brown, the team's union representative, and Mark Breuner, a member of the union's executive committee, confronted head coach Gary Kubiak and told him that the drill was prohibited. Both Breuner and Brown declined to speak to Outside The Lines. (holy crap balls!)

GP
02-08-2009, 09:44 AM
Stevenson to Narrator: So, uh, the players weren't happy. The player reps went to the coaches and said, you know, one-on-one, it's strictly prohibited. We can show you in the CBA where it says, you know, any type of live blocking drill, i.e. one-on-one pass rush is strictly prohibited. When they came back to us, the coaching staff pretty much said they were going to do what they wanted to do and run practices as they see fit.

Narrator to Stevenson: What kind of pads are you guys wearing?

Stevenson: Just helmets.

Narrator to Stevenson: During that first day, how intense did it get?

Stevenson: Ummm...it got very intense. Players were, like I said, trying to make the team, you know, and people were getting put on their backs. People were getting knocked over. Guys are getting pancaked. It's all out.

Jordan Black to the camera: Oh, it's full speed. I mean, you're there doing the drills, trying to make an impression on the coach.

Narrator to TV audience (as clip is shown): Lineman Jordan Black actually ripped a teammate's helmet off (vs. #96, Cochran I think).

Black: Pride is a big thing. Nobody wants to, uh, get beat by another player. You just always want to win out there.

Stevenson: It's what you need to do to survive. There's no gettin' around it. If the coach asks you to do something, umm, what are you going to do but go and try to show that you're good enough to make the 53-man roster?

infantrycak
02-08-2009, 09:46 AM
Bruener is retired now. The fact that he wouldn't speak to them tells you his position even if this was technically against the rules. My bet is Brown and Bruener went to Kubiak even though they didn't want to because Stevenson or someone else complained. Here is where facts get lost in translation. Those two are gamers and may very well have gone to Kubiak with a "hey coach we got this complaint so we are doing our job and passing it along but keep it up, we like where the team is going."

I can't believe the people I see railing against the Texans in this thread. This goes on at every NFL team. The Texans were unlucky enough to have some fringe player narc on them to help his own civil lawsuit.

Jackie Chiles
02-08-2009, 09:52 AM
Narrator: During a minicamp practice that the public never saw, offensive lineman Dan Stevenson, trying to make his third team in three years, suffered a shoulder injury that he says might have ended his NFL career. Stevenson filed a grievance against the Texans, saying he was hurt during "Prohibited full contact drills during an offseason minicamp with reckless disregard for the players' health." The NFL management counsel rejected his grievance, citing, among other factors, that the "Texans deny players were required to participate in drills which are explicitly prohibited."

I thought these were all open practices, am I missing something?

Just got done watching the piece, I think the part of this whole thing that bugs me is how we come across as cheap and sneaky in regard to compensating the players that were injured. The drills are not as big a deal. I do wish they could have found someone to give the Texan's side of the story but I can see how it must have been impossible to get anyone from the organization to speak about this matter. Ross Tucker, a former NFL O-linemen, came on and played that role ineffectively. No mention of Fred Weary being upset at how his affidavit was being used in this story or how he mentions he thought the drills were in mini camp and not OTAs.

GP
02-08-2009, 09:59 AM
Narrator to TV audience: The next day at practice, coaches ran the same drill at the same speed. Stevenson's first drill was his last. (clip is shown of Stevenson blocking #67)

Stevenson to narrator, as they watch the clip: I'm blocking him, blocking him, and bam! my arm goes.

Narrator to Stevenson: It's why you pulled back like that? (He says "Yes") Did you know right away? (He answers "Instantly")

Narrator to TV audience: Jordan Black was one of two other players who suffered season-ending injuries that day.

Black: I was going to punch the defensive end, he was trying to get around the outside of me, and he went to slap my arm off--so he could get that corner--as soon as he slapped my arm it just rotated, twisted, and my arm came out of its socket.

Narrator to TV audience (showing Jordan Black's "Notice of Termination" papers sent to him on June 9, 2008): A month after the incident, the Texans terminated Black. He says the team argued that he had NOT suffered an injury during the workout, and he was forced to pay for his own surgery. In September (showing the actual letter from Texans to Black) the Texans agreed to reimburse his medical bills. But even as they did, they noted that the payment "...does not constitute evidence nor any admission of the club's liability..."

Honoring Earl 34
02-08-2009, 10:06 AM
Bruener is retired now. The fact that he wouldn't speak to them tells you his position even if this was technically against the rules. My bet is Brown and Bruener went to Kubiak even though they didn't want to because Stevenson or someone else complained. Here is where facts get lost in translation. Those two are gamers and may very well have gone to Kubiak with a "hey coach we got this complaint so we are doing our job and passing it along but keep it up, we like where the team is going."

I can't believe the people I see railing against the Texans in this thread. This goes on at every NFL team. The Texans were unlucky enough to have some fringe player narc on them to help his own civil lawsuit.

The funny thing is both guys were from Notre Dame . I wonder how well they knew each other .... hmmmm .

GP
02-08-2009, 10:06 AM
Bruener is retired now. The fact that he wouldn't speak to them tells you his position even if this was technically against the rules. My bet is Brown and Bruener went to Kubiak even though they didn't want to because Stevenson or someone else complained. Here is where facts get lost in translation. Those two are gamers and may very well have gone to Kubiak with a "hey coach we got this complaint so we are doing our job and passing it along but keep it up, we like where the team is going."

I can't believe the people I see railing against the Texans in this thread. This goes on at every NFL team. The Texans were unlucky enough to have some fringe player narc on them to help his own civil lawsuit.

Well, I guess that's YOUR opinion. I find it curious that you are essentially speculating when you theorize how it was that Kris Brown and Breuner went to Kubiak. You always rail on those who speculate, and here you are doing that very thing.

It's obvious you think those guys are extorting the Texans, pissed off about not making the team, looking for a payday, etc.

I think they did an admirable thing. They said "Here's the rules, you're not supposed to be doing that." If anything, this is going to stop this nonsense and it's going to save future players' chances of making a team.

Anybody who goes this far to support "the team" at the expense of individuals who make up "the team" is puzzling. If it was a number 1 draft pick who had this happened to him, a pro-bowl guy, we'd all be sending letters and emails to the Texans in disgust of what happened.

The Texans come across exactly how they should: They broke the rules, guys got hurt during drills that should not have happened. The responsibility is upon the coaching and management staff. Period. This is not how a man with integrity should lead those whom he in-turn asks to live a life of integrity. This is inexcusable. Our team SHOULD be punished. Any teams doing this should be punished. Period.

Honoring Earl 34
02-08-2009, 10:16 AM
Well, I guess that's YOUR opinion. I find it curious that you are essentially speculating when you theorize how it was that Kris Brown and Breuner went to Kubiak. You always rail on those who speculate, and here you are doing that very thing.

It's obvious you think those guys are extorting the Texans, pissed off about not making the team, looking for a payday, etc.

I think they did an admirable thing. They said "Here's the rules, you're not supposed to be doing that." If anything, this is going to stop this nonsense and it's going to save future players' chances of making a team.

Anybody who goes this far to support "the team" at the expense of individuals who make up "the team" is puzzling. If it was a number 1 draft pick who had this happened to him, a pro-bowl guy, we'd all be sending letters and emails to the Texans in disgust of what happened.

The Texans come across exactly how they should: They broke the rules, guys got hurt during drills that should not have happened. The responsibility is upon the coaching and management staff. Period. This is not how a man with integrity should lead those whom he in-turn asks to live a life of integrity. This is inexcusable. Our team SHOULD be punished. Any teams doing this should be punished. Period.

This is the same thing as colleges cheating in recruiting . It's a mindset that if you aren't cheating you ain't trying or nice guys finish last . You guys who are so appalled I guess never paracticed in the gymm in July in highschool .

The point is the NFL or NCAA will not come down on any off it because it weakens the product . Like Cak said ... the Texans had a couple of guys who told ... even taped it . It's fuuny that nobody else has come forward and Weary says Stephenson duped him .

infantrycak
02-08-2009, 10:25 AM
Well, I guess that's YOUR opinion. I find it curious that you are essentially speculating when you theorize how it was that Kris Brown and Breuner went to Kubiak. You always rail on those who speculate, and here you are doing that very thing.

Watch closely, the difference really isn't hard to see. I didn't say, as you so often do, "this is what happened." I said there is context we don't know and it may have gone down like X. Bruener's silence sure doesn't point towards his agreement with Stevenson.

It's obvious you think those guys are extorting the Texans, pissed off about not making the team, looking for a payday, etc.

Extorting, no. Working to their own advantage, yes. The Texans broke the rules and need to compensate the players. Fans acting like this reflects something about the Texans distinct from any other team are the ones I think are naive.

I think they did an admirable thing.

Give me a break. If they hadn't been injured they would have said jack. This is self interest plain and simple. Nothing admirable about it.

Anybody who goes this far to support "the team" at the expense of individuals who make up "the team" is puzzling. If it was a number 1 draft pick who had this happened to him, a pro-bowl guy, we'd all be sending letters and emails to the Texans in disgust of what happened.

The Texans come across exactly how they should: They broke the rules, guys got hurt during drills that should not have happened. The responsibility is upon the coaching and management staff. Period. This is not how a man with integrity should lead those whom he in-turn asks to live a life of integrity. This is inexcusable. Our team SHOULD be punished. Any teams doing this should be punished. Period.

Step down from your sanctimonious soap box. You just enjoy being hyper-critical of the Texans. If a news report had come out with Kubiak announcing the Texans would not engage in the NFL wide practice of having one on ones and some contact when they shouldn't you would be railing on them for being too soft and unwilling to do what is necessary to win.

The Texans violated the rule and it is unfortunate someone got hurt. The Texans should deal fairly with the players hurt. The fact that the Texans violated the rule says zilch about them as an institution since the problem is league wide. If the league wants to do something about it they should do enough to get every team to stop so teams don't feel like they are at a competitive disadvantage if they don't do it.

GP
02-08-2009, 10:27 AM
Narrator: Black, meanwhile, is getting back into shape, having signed with the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Black: I'm looking forward to it, you know a change of venue, a fresh start. Everybody there: great guys, great coaches. I'm excited about being there.

Chucky Okobi, the third player injured in those drills during the minicamp, was released in June and has not signed with another team. Stevenson remains on the Texans roster, but wonders if he will ever play again. When the injury first happened, Stevenson says, Houston's medical staff said he had "...strained right shoulder blocking during minicamp at Reliant..." After it failed to improve, he received a second opinion from Orthopedic surgeon Dr. Neal Elattrache. Dr. Elattrache diagnosed multiple tears in Stevenson's right shoulder. (Shows document on screen of Dr.'s diagnosis of "Posterior labral tear, small posterior capsule tear, right shoulder in addition to posterior Bankart lesion.")

Narrator to Stevenson: What concerns did you have, at that point, that this had happened at a drill other players said should not have happened?

Stevenson: I was a little worried that they were going to try and cover it up, or try to kinda' hide the fact that I was hurt.

Narrator to TV audience: Stevenson began collecting information. He asked the team for the original trainer's report of his injury which said he had been injured during blocking drills. When he was placed on injured reserve in July, however, the report said he was injured "Participating in drills during an Organized Team Activity" He knew teammates would be reluctant to speak out against the Texans, but Jordan Black and another teammate, Fred Weary, signed sworn affidavits backing Stevenson's version of events.

Stevenson: I felt like for all this to be taken away from me, to be jeopardized, you know, not just for one season, but my entire football career, for something that wasn't supposed to be done, I was upset. And I felt like people weren't giving me the answers that I needed.

GP
02-08-2009, 10:31 AM
This is the same thing as colleges cheating in recruiting . It's a mindset that if you aren't cheating you ain't trying or nice guys finish last . You guys who are so appalled I guess never paracticed in the gymm in July in highschool .

The point is the NFL or NCAA will not come down on any off it because it weakens the product . Like Cak said ... the Texans had a couple of guys who told ... even taped it . It's fuuny that nobody else has come forward and Weary says Stephenson duped him .

It shows that you and a few others don't care about rules.

You can't interpret, on your own, what rules to follow and which to disobey. You are to follow the rules set out beforehand.

If your boss decided to only pay you every third month instead of more regularly, would you agree that that's fair to you? No. You signed on with your employer for the terms laid out in the interview and job acceptance stage of the agreement.

Look, you don't get it because you have a bent toward a way of thinking: Everyone cheats a little, everyone fudges things a little, so what's the big deal?

The big deal is that three guys got hurt. Maybe they weren't all that instrumental to the team's overall chances of success. But they are PEOPLE and they were harmed. And they were harmed in a reckless manner because of the inability of coaches and management staff to adhere by the rules of the CBA. It works both ways, fellas'.

GP
02-08-2009, 10:45 AM
Step down from your sanctimonious soap box. You just enjoy being hyper-critical of the Texans. If a news report had come out with Kubiak announcing the Texans would not engage in the NFL wide practice of having one on ones and some contact when they shouldn't you would be railing on them for being too soft and unwilling to do what is necessary to win.

The Texans violated the rule and it is unfortunate someone got hurt. The Texans should deal fairly with the players hurt. The fact that the Texans violated the rule says zilch about them as an institution since the problem is league wide. If the league wants to do something about it they should do enough to get every team to stop so teams don't feel like they are at a competitive disadvantage if they don't do it.

I do not "enjoy" being hyper-critical of the Texans. Now you're trying to build a strawman and burn it down. You'd fit in nicely with the same coaches who act with impunity toward the rules set forth in contractual agreements.

Come out and say it: You think this is bogus. And if you think this is bogus, then you indeed stand a great chance of wanting to somehow plant a seed in posters' heads that there just mayyyyyybe could have been a way that Brown and Breuner went to Kubiak out of obligation and not out of real concern for a teammate's health. That's speculation.

What I know of Kris Brown is that he is a man of integrity and character. I choose to believe that he went ot of genuine concern for the players. And what I know of Kubiak is that he might be more of a jerk than he is a guy who cares for his players: His aloof statements about Diles' injury "Where there is tragedy, there is opportunity..." etc.

When guys like Jerome Mathis get a pink slip, I applaud the team's coaches and management. We do not need guys who cause headaches.

When guys like Stevenson, Black, and Okobi get hurt during drills that were 100% NOT to have happened at all, and the Texans (a) refuse to pay for Black's surgery, and (b) send him compensation and yet try to state this is not "pay-off" money, then I have a problem with that.

I'm a fan of this team, despite any attempts you make to persuade others that I am not.

If Bob McNair wants to hang his hat on being this squeaky-clean team, refusing to even look at certain available players due to said players' conduct, then he needs to man up and deal with Kubiak and Smith. Maybe he already has. We wouldn't know it.

I want to post the rest of the interview, it's almost over, but wonder if it would even matter. It seems there's a set way of thinking in our culture that you do not EVER snitch on a coach that it seems useless.

If anybody wants the remainder of the interview, let me know.

I am battling sever bronchitis, flu, and all the lovely symptoms that go along with it. I need to take a cup of NyQuil and go to bed (again).

GP
02-08-2009, 10:46 AM
Outside The Lines: Sunday, Feb. 8th 2009

Stevenson: "There's a reason, you know, that drills like these are prohibited in the off-season. Football is dangerous enough as it is, there's high risk of injury. And when you're not wearing the proper pads, you're not protected."

Narrator: During a minicamp practice that the public never saw, offensive lineman Dan Stevenson, trying to make his third team in three years, suffered a shoulder injury that he says might have ended his NFL career. Stevenson filed a grievance against the Texans, saying he was hurt during "Prohibited full contact drills during an offseason minicamp with reckless disregard for the players' health." The NFL management counsel rejected his grievance, citing, among other factors, that the "Texans deny players were required to participate in drills which are explicitly prohibited."

Narrator to Stevenson, as they watch the video clips of the drills: Why did you think to tape this?

Stevenson: I just wanted to see it. I kinda' wanted to see for myself.

Narrator: Why did you tape it?

Stevenson: I think that they can obviously no longer deny that this drill ever happened.

Narrator as the clip turns from showing the drills, to then showing Stevenson's video footage of a Texans computer in Texans offices: What does this tell us?

Stevenson: This is how they break down film.

Narrator: Stevenson took a video camera into the Texans meeting room, and recorded the team's video of the practice off a computer terminal.

Narrator to Stevenson: It seems like you had more in mind than just to shoot the drill, that you knew you had to establish when it was, as much information as you could get.

Stevenson: Without a doubt.

Narrator, as TV shows the Texans' computer monitor playing the archived drill: This is May 9th, 2008...The Texans were prohibited from holding contact drills.

Narrator to Stevenson: What are we seeing here?

Stevenson: Right here you see that it's obviously a one-on-one pass rush drill at the minicamp.

Narrator to TV audience (as the NFL document is shown on screen): Article 36, section 4 of the CBA reads "There will be no contact work (e.g. "live" blocking,...)" According to Stevenson, and several other eye witnesses, Kris Brown, the team's union representative, and Mark Breuner, a member of the union's executive committee, confronted head coach Gary Kubiak and told him that the drill was prohibited. Both Breuner and Brown declined to speak to Outside The Lines. (holy crap balls!)

Stevenson to Narrator: So, uh, the players weren't happy. The player reps went to the coaches and said, you know, one-on-one, it's strictly prohibited. We can show you in the CBA where it says, you know, any type of live blocking drill, i.e. one-on-one pass rush is strictly prohibited. When they came back to us, the coaching staff pretty much said they were going to do what they wanted to do and run practices as they see fit.

Narrator to Stevenson: What kind of pads are you guys wearing?

Stevenson: Just helmets.

Narrator to Stevenson: During that first day, how intense did it get?

Stevenson: Ummm...it got very intense. Players were, like I said, trying to make the team, you know, and people were getting put on their backs. People were getting knocked over. Guys are getting pancaked. It's all out.

Jordan Black to the camera: Oh, it's full speed. I mean, you're there doing the drills, trying to make an impression on the coach.

Narrator to TV audience (as clip is shown): Lineman Jordan Black actually ripped a teammate's helmet off (vs. #96, Cochran I think).

Black: Pride is a big thing. Nobody wants to, uh, get beat by another player. You just always want to win out there.

Stevenson: It's what you need to do to survive. There's no gettin' around it. If the coach asks you to do something, umm, what are you going to do but go and try to show that you're good enough to make the 53-man roster?

Narrator to TV audience: The next day at practice, coaches ran the same drill at the same speed. Stevenson's first drill was his last. (clip is shown of Stevenson blocking #67)

Stevenson to narrator, as they watch the clip: I'm blocking him, blocking him, and bam! my arm goes.

Narrator to Stevenson: It's why you pulled back like that? (He says "Yes") Did you know right away? (He answers "Instantly")

Narrator to TV audience: Jordan Black was one of two other players who suffered season-ending injuries that day.

Black: I was going to punch the defensive end, he was trying to get around the outside of me, and he went to slap my arm off--so he could get that corner--as soon as he slapped my arm it just rotated, twisted, and my arm came out of its socket.

Narrator to TV audience (showing Jordan Black's "Notice of Termination" papers sent to him on June 9, 2008): A month after the incident, the Texans terminated Black. He says the team argued that he had NOT suffered an injury during the workout, and he was forced to pay for his own surgery. In September (showing the actual letter from Texans to Black) the Texans agreed to reimburse his medical bills. But even as they did, they noted that the payment "...does not constitute evidence nor any admission of the club's liability..."

Narrator: Black, meanwhile, is getting back into shape, having signed with the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Black: I'm looking forward to it, you know a change of venue, a fresh start. Everybody there: great guys, great coaches. I'm excited about being there.

Chucky Okobi, the third player injured in those drills during the minicamp, was released in June and has not signed with another team. Stevenson remains on the Texans roster, but wonders if he will ever play again. When the injury first happened, Stevenson says, Houston's medical staff said he had "...strained right shoulder blocking during minicamp at Reliant..." After it failed to improve, he received a second opinion from Orthopedic surgeon Dr. Neal Elattrache. Dr. Elattrache diagnosed multiple tears in Stevenson's right shoulder. (Shows document on screen of Dr.'s diagnosis of "Posterior labral tear, small posterior capsule tear, right shoulder in addition to posterior Bankart lesion.")

Narrator to Stevenson: What concerns did you have, at that point, that this had happened at a drill other players said should not have happened?

Stevenson: I was a little worried that they were going to try and cover it up, or try to kinda' hide the fact that I was hurt.

Narrator to TV audience: Stevenson began collecting information. He asked the team for the original trainer's report of his injury which said he had been injured during blocking drills. When he was placed on injured reserve in July, however, the report said he was injured "Participating in drills during an Organized Team Activity" He knew teammates would be reluctant to speak out against the Texans, but Jordan Black and another teammate, Fred Weary, signed sworn affidavits backing Stevenson's version of events.

Stevenson: I felt like for all this to be taken away from me, to be jeopardized, you know, not just for one season, but my entire football career, for something that wasn't supposed to be done, I was upset. And I felt like people weren't giving me the answers that I needed.

...i can transcribe the rest of it, if people desire it.

Honoring Earl 34
02-08-2009, 10:49 AM
It shows that you and a few others don't care about rules.

You can't interpret, on your own, what rules to follow and which to disobey. You are to follow the rules set out beforehand.

If your boss decided to only pay you every third month instead of more regularly, would you agree that that's fair to you? No. You signed on with your employer for the terms laid out in the interview and job acceptance stage of the agreement.

Look, you don't get it because you have a bent toward a way of thinking: Everyone cheats a little, everyone fudges things a little, so what's the big deal?

The big deal is that three guys got hurt. Maybe they weren't all that instrumental to the team's overall chances of success. But they are PEOPLE and they were harmed. And they were harmed in a reckless manner because of the inability of coaches and management staff to adhere by the rules of the CBA. It works both ways, fellas'.

What you don't get is that's the way it is . You're going to tell me this isn't standard and that when Black goes to the Jaguars he won't do the same thing . Well ... maybe when he's not around .

The Steelers just won their 6th Super Bowl . They built their legacy in the 70's and if you go back and look ... a lot of them guys are dead . They also put on about 30 lbs of muscle after they got to Pittsburg .

Who's the Johnson guy from Colorado who retired with post concusion syndrom after playing with the Patriots . He now claims that The Pats forced him to play .

The Texans are doing what's standard and go 8-8 . If they didn't break any rules and went 4-12 ... hey they did this ... with a bunch of swell guys ... it would go over like a lead balloon . Until the league cracks down on everyone ... this stuff will continue but they won't ... why ... this is a NFLPA rule .

Runner
02-08-2009, 11:19 AM
From what I've been able to gather almost all (if not all) teams do these illegal drills. Most players don't like being forced to do these drills. They also know that complaining about them is a waste of time at best and career limiting at worst. The teams have all of the power in this situation and they abuse it and break the agreements.

The specific Texans case just brings it to light because the players don't think the Texans are being accountable for the team's own actions. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't; that will apparently be decided in the courts.

This does tarnish the Texans image a little, because they are showing that they aren't any different than any other team, and the local fans have previously bought into the image of "a great team run by high character guys. A great place to play". They show are now publicly showing that they aren't any better in character than any other team - they don't follow their signed agreements, and it appears they lie about it when they get caught. I doubt that this will have much lasting bad effect on their image, because it appears most fans have as little regard for non-star players as the team does. Anything to win - although I'm not sure how many extra games these drills have won for the Texans each season.

I'm not even going to consider that they don't do these drills as they claim, because they do. Everyone does - right? The Texans should have the character they expect out of their players and own up to their actions.

infantrycak
02-08-2009, 11:24 AM
I doubt that this will have much lasting bad effect on their image, because it appears most fans have as little regard for non-star players as the team does.

Why is this a star player v. non-star player issue? Everyone was doing the drills. Sure it would get even more press if it was a star player but that is after the fact. It wouldn't make any difference on how the team regards the different players.

Honoring Earl 34
02-08-2009, 11:34 AM
From what I've been able to gather almost all (if not all) teams do these illegal drills. Most players don't like being forced to do these drills. They also know that complaining about them is a waste of time at best and career limiting at worst. The teams have all of the power in this situation and they abuse it and break the agreements.

The specific Texans case just brings it to light because the players don't think the Texans are being accountable for the team's own actions. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't; that will apparently be decided in the courts.

This does tarnish the Texans image a little, because they are showing that they aren't any different than any other team, and the local fans have previously bought into the image of "a great team run by high character guys. A great place to play". They show are now publicly showing that they aren't any better in character than any other team - they don't follow their signed agreements, and it appears they lie about it when they get caught. I doubt that this will have much lasting bad effect on their image, because it appears most fans have as little regard for non-star players as the team does. Anything to win - although I'm not sure how many extra games these drills have won for the Texans each season.

I'm not even going to consider that they don't do these drills as they claim, because they do. Everyone does - right? The Texans should have the character they expect out of their players and own up to their actions.

To me , this is like Biggio getting a DUI early in his career . Doesn't make him a bad guy . Is he the only ballplayer doing it ... nope . Does it make it right ... nope . Is there worse things ... yep . Did this event tarnish his image ... a tad .

To me here's what happened .

1. Gibbs comes in .
2. Gibbs likes overachievers , guys who are willing to do anything to get the job done .
3. The Texans OL is exposed to a tempo it's not used to .
4. Some guys fall out of favor , probably after the first hour .

eriadoc
02-08-2009, 11:36 AM
I can't believe the people I see railing against the Texans in this thread. This goes on at every NFL team. The Texans were unlucky enough to have some fringe player narc on them to help his own civil lawsuit.

The fact that it goes on at every NFL team doesn't make it right, nor should it excuse it. If there's a rule against it, either get rid of the rule or abide by it.

I also agree that Stevenson doesn't come out looking good in this situation, but that doesn't exonerate the Texans. They (and every other team) take a chance by doing this stuff, and if they get busted, they have to face the consequences.

Runner
02-08-2009, 11:38 AM
Why is this a star player v. non-star player issue? Everyone was doing the drills. Sure it would get even more press if it was a star player but that is after the fact. It wouldn't make any difference on how the team regards the different players.

I doubt the team (or fans) react the same way to this situation if an Eric Winston or Andre Johnson lose a season for the same reason. I think the team would do more to keep them happy, and the fans could see that the players lost something valuable.

That part of my post is just my opinion, of course. My main point is the teams have all the power in these situations and abuse it. Most players just accept it and do as they are told. I think it is wrong; in my mind there is no such thing as football ethics that make this acceptable on a football team if similar actions are wrong in the "real world".

Runner
02-08-2009, 11:46 AM
To be clear, I think all teams are just as guilty of poor treatment of fair to middling players, not just the Texans. The Texans are just topical right now, and it seems many people think the team has done nothing wrong. I obviously disagree, and am discussing it as it pertains to the Texans.

Honoring Earl 34
02-08-2009, 11:54 AM
To be clear, I think all teams are just as guilty of poor treatment of fair to middling players, not just the Texans. The Texans are just topical right now, and it seems many people think the team has done nothing wrong. I obviously disagree, and am discussing it as it pertains to the Texans.

I wonder if these guys would have done this to one of the high status teams /coaches ?

Runner
02-08-2009, 11:57 AM
I wonder if these guys would have done this to one of the high status teams /coaches ?
I wonder if a high status team would have taken care of it by now.

This can be spun either way. :)

Honoring Earl 34
02-08-2009, 12:03 PM
I wonder if a high status team would have taken care of it by now.

This can be spun either way. :)

Jerry Jones paid off a guy that Michael Irvin stabbed in the neck with a pair of scissors .

Ole Miss Texan
02-08-2009, 12:13 PM
So the issue is the Texans were doing a drill that was strictly prohibited during that time in the offseason. I understand why the Texans wanted to do these drills, especially since Gibbs just came on board and was teaching the 'new' blocking scheme, they need all the practice they can get. But the bottom line is that the Texans did something against the rules and put themselves in jeopardy of getting punished by the league.

If Kubiak does this again and puts the club in jeopardy of getting in trouble more, then I'll have a bigger problem with it. But at this point, this will not be his last year as our Head Coach. Like some people wrote in on McClain's blog 'Kubiak's in the hot seat, he should be fired, if he doesn't make the playoffs he's done because of this, etc.'... that's just ridiculous.

Lose some days of practice (which are valuable for the young guys), get fined, let's move on. If this happens again, we'll see a much more severe penalty.

Lucky
02-08-2009, 12:18 PM
To me here's what happened .
1. Gibbs comes in .
2. Gibbs likes overachievers , guys who are willing to do anything to get the job done .
3. The Texans OL is exposed to a tempo it's not used to .
4. Some guys fall out of favor , probably after the first hour .
The assumption here is that this behavior is something new, or specific to this coaching staff. We don't know that these drills haven't occurred during the Capers era. We don't know how many other NFL teams employ the same drills, because we don't have video tape. There's a lot we don't know.

The Niners lost a 5th round pick for contacting Lance Brigg's agent prior to the free agency period. It's widely assumed that this type of tampering is prevalent throughout the league. But, the Commish felt he had enough evidence on the Niners to make them an example. That's what I see happening to the Texans. I don't believe they are the only team violating the no-contact rule. Just that they're the ones caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

I don't want to come across as a homer. The Texans deserve to be punished. Just that if every team got their just desserts for violating the offseason no-contact rule, there probably wouldn't be a 4th round in the upcoming draft.

infantrycak
02-08-2009, 12:19 PM
The fact that it goes on at every NFL team doesn't make it right, nor should it excuse it. If there's a rule against it, either get rid of the rule or abide by it.

I also agree that Stevenson doesn't come out looking good in this situation, but that doesn't exonerate the Texans. They (and every other team) take a chance by doing this stuff, and if they get busted, they have to face the consequences.

To be clear, I think all teams are just as guilty of poor treatment of fair to middling players, not just the Texans. The Texans are just topical right now, and it seems many people think the team has done nothing wrong. I obviously disagree, and am discussing it as it pertains to the Texans.

Apparently I am not being clear. Yes the team violated a rule and that is wrong. What I don't like is fans jumping on the Texans like this displays some particular weakness or failure of the Texans. This is a league wide practice and says nothing in particular about the Texans other than they didn't take the highest road. It doesn't indicate anything special or unique about McNair, Kubiak, etc.

Anyone who has been paying attention has known this has been going on for years. I don't recall a single fan being outraged about it before now.

Runner
02-08-2009, 12:28 PM
The assumption here is that this behavior is something new, or specific to this coaching staff. We don't know that these drills haven't occurred during the Capers era. We don't know how many other NFL teams employ the same drills, because we don't have video tape. There's a lot we don't know.


It happened here in the Capers era too. I specifically asked a player about it when the Jets or whoever got busted a few years back.

I expect it to happen in OTAs around the country, including here, in 2009.

Honoring Earl 34
02-08-2009, 12:29 PM
The assumption here is that this behavior is something new, or specific to this coaching staff. We don't know that these drills haven't occurred during the Capers era. We don't know how many other NFL teams employ the same drills, because we don't have video tape. There's a lot we don't know.

The Niners lost a 5th round pick for contacting Lance Brigg's agent prior to the free agency period. It's widely assumed that this type of tampering is prevalent throughout the league. But, the Commish felt he had enough evidence on the Niners to make them an example. That's what I see happening to the Texans. I don't believe they are the only team violating the no-contact rule. Just that they're the ones caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

I don't want to come across as a homer. The Texans deserve to be punished. Just that if every team got their just desserts for violating the offseason no-contact rule, there probably wouldn't be a 4th round in the upcoming draft.

Ummm ... remember how we used to block ? :whip:

eriadoc
02-08-2009, 12:30 PM
Apparently I am not being clear. Yes the team violated a rule and that is wrong. What I don't like is fans jumping on the Texans like this displays some particular weakness or failure of the Texans. This is a league wide practice and says nothing in particular about the Texans other than they didn't take the highest road. It doesn't indicate anything special or unique about McNair, Kubiak, etc.

Anyone who has been paying attention has known this has been going on for years. I don't recall a single fan being outraged about it before now.

No, I got ya, and I actually agree with you in all ways except the minimization of the deed by the Texans. As for the fans not being outraged, well, I can't speak for anyone else, but as for me - I care that the Texans made a bad decision and now have to pay for it. I care that it was the Texans, and not another team. As far as the ethics of the whole situation, I personally think the Texans should lose the case, to whatever degree is reasonable. But all I really care about personally is how it affects the development of the team and the product that they put out on the field. That's why I'm annoyed by the whole thing.

But then again, I haven't really bashed the team. They made a bad decision, and now they'll have to pay for it, which may affect the product I pay for.

gtexan02
02-08-2009, 12:31 PM
Apparently I am not being clear. Yes the team violated a rule and that is wrong. What I don't like is fans jumping on the Texans like this displays some particular weakness or failure of the Texans. This is a league wide practice and says nothing in particular about the Texans other than they didn't take the highest road. It doesn't indicate anything special or unique about McNair, Kubiak, etc.

Anyone who has been paying attention has known this has been going on for years. I don't recall a single fan being outraged about it before now.

I think people are also forgetting that this guy went through the legitimate means of complaints and was rejected.

Plenty of other teams engage in this behavior, and if a player complains, the league takes away draft picks.
Marinelli, Wisenhunt, and Gruden if I remember correctly all ended up with complaints and loss of practice time.

Stevenson complained, but the league didn't do anything. They denied him.

A previous injury grievance was denied by the NFL Management Council.

It wasn't until he became sneaky and dishonest and went to the media that people started to care.

Even some of the people who were originally involved in helping him are mad about the course he took, because they know he went about it in a shady way

gtexan02
02-08-2009, 12:39 PM
From Fred Weary:

Former Texans guard Fred Weary is not happy to be involved in the Texans practice story.

"I feel like Dan Stevenson did me a disservice," Weary said, according to Houston TV station Fox 26. "At the time I signed it, I didn't think he would go to this extreme. I thought it would be used internally through the team.


"In the Texans' defense they did tell us what was going on. They did give us parameters, like going half-speed during the drills. But when guys are trying to make the team, those parameters go out the window."

eriadoc
02-08-2009, 12:39 PM
I think people are also forgetting that this guy went through the legitimate means of complaints and was rejected.

Plenty of other teams engage in this behavior, and if a player complains, the league takes away draft picks.
Marinelli, Wisenhunt, and Gruden if I remember correctly all ended up with complaints and loss of practice time.

Stevenson complained, but the league didn't do anything. They denied him.



It wasn't until he became sneaky and dishonest and went to the media that people started to care.

Even some of the people who were originally involved in helping him are mad about the course he took, because they know he went about it in a shady way

So if you were Stevenson and had suffered a career-ending injury due to violation of a rule that was put in place to protect you, what would you do?

steelbtexan
02-08-2009, 12:44 PM
To me , this is like Biggio getting a DUI early in his career . Doesn't make him a bad guy . Is he the only ballplayer doing it ... nope . Does it make it right ... nope . Is there worse things ... yep . Did this event tarnish his image ... a tad .

To me here's what happened .

1. Gibbs comes in .
2. Gibbs likes overachievers , guys who are willing to do anything to get the job done .
3. The Texans OL is exposed to a tempo it's not used to .
4. Some guys fall out of favor , probably after the first hour .

Yep

I would give up a 4th rd. pick every year as long as our OL continues to improve as much as it did this year. I find it curious that the NFLPA, Weary, & Okobi didn't back up Stevensons claims.

The only reason Stevenson was kept on IR was to pay him off for the injury he suffered @ the OTA's He made $200,000, He wants to be paid for the 2nd year of the contract which is another $310,000. Mr. McNair being the bottom line guy that he is balked @ paying this for a marginal guy who wouldn't have made the active roster anyways.

Apparently the teams image is worth $310,000 to Uncle BOB.

gtexan02
02-08-2009, 12:44 PM
All of this adds up to the same answer.

Did the Texans do something wrong? Yes, most probably

However:
1. The complaint was made to the legitimate NFL governing sources, and Stevenson's complaint was denied. Other teams lost practice time last year, so the fact that Stevenson's claims as denied tells me something.

2. Fred Weary, who originally signed the affidavit, is now upset with Stevenson. He even told ESPN that the Texans specifically said not to go full speed. The fact that the players decided to go full speed is not the Texans fault IMO

3. It wasn't until Stevenson lied to the Texans and his fellow teammates, snuck into the meeting and secretely video taped a confidential practice tape, and then went public to the media that people started to care.

This is all so sensationalistic, and thats the only reason anyone cares about this. The NFL already made their decision to deny Stevenson. So now he's trying to embarass the Texans in hopes that they settle with him to keep their image clean.

The guy just seems to be dishonest. If the legitimate path comes back denied, you try again. You don't take this to ESPN in hopes of tarnishing someones image just to get paid

gtexan02
02-08-2009, 12:50 PM
So if you were Stevenson and had suffered a career-ending injury due to violation of a rule that was put in place to protect you, what would you do?

#1) He was injured because he was going full speed during a practice in which he was instructed to go half speed. That was his choice. Someone already described a blocking drill involving Antwaan Peek (who always went full speed) against OL that did not go full speed. Peek is gone. The OL he was up against is not. You don't have to go full speed to make an impression every time.

#2) If I were injured in a drill that was strictly forbidden, I would have taken the exact same steps as he did the first time. Obtain affidavits from the players, get my NFL union reps to make the complaints, and file with a grievance with the NFL.

If my grievance was denied (like Stevenson's was), and I still felt like I was right, I would of course try again. The guy made $200,000+ last year to sit on the bench and rehab his shoulder. Its not like he's fighting for every dollar to feed his family.


He isn't really interested in seeing the rules changed, he's interested in getting paid. How many players do you know that really had career ending injuries from shoulder separation, anyway? It was so minor it wasn't even detected by the first doctor.

The guy is just making a mountain out of a molehill in the public eye because he hopes the Texans will cave and settle with him.

The fact that the NFL, Weary, Okobi (or whatever his name is) won't back him up says a lot to me


Clearly the Texans violated the letter of the law by having any contact during OTAs.
But it really bothers me that no one cared about this until someone came out whining to ESPN and using secret video. Obviously I don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but it just screams of someone trying to get money for nothing

dalemurphy
02-08-2009, 12:51 PM
All of this adds up to the same answer.

Did the Texans do something wrong? Yes, most probably

However:
1. The complaint was made to the legitimate NFL governing sources, and Stevenson's complaint was denied. Other teams lost practice time last year, so the fact that Stevenson's claims as denied tells me something.

2. Fred Weary, who originally signed the affidavit, is now upset with Stevenson. He even told ESPN that the Texans specifically said not to go full speed. The fact that the players decided to go full speed is not the Texans fault IMO

3. It wasn't until Stevenson lied to the Texans and his fellow teammates, snuck into the meeting and secretely video taped a confidential practice tape, and then went public to the media that people started to care.

This is all so sensationalistic, and thats the only reason anyone cares about this. The NFL already made their decision to deny Stevenson. So now he's trying to embarass the Texans in hopes that they settle with him to keep their image clean.

The guy just seems to be dishonest. If the legitimate path comes back denied, you try again. You don't take this to ESPN in hopes of tarnishing someones image just to get paid



Did you ever watch 60 minutes? I'm not going to disparage this guys character based on what I've heard. If he feels he's been mistreated, I don't see how it's wrong for him to tell and show that which is true to a media outlet. If he is dealing truthfully then any embarrassment the team suffers is a result of its own actions. If it's a league-wide issue, then the league needs to deal with this.

Of course, if Stevenson is being dishonest about how and when the injury happened and other facts, then I clearly have a problem with what he's doing.

Lucky
02-08-2009, 12:55 PM
I think people are also forgetting that this guy went through the legitimate means of complaints and was rejected.
That was before there was video evidence. And sworn statements. The playing field has changed, now.

If the NFL really wants to crackdown on this practice, they would request the tapes of OTA's and mini camps from all 32 NFL teams for review. If these teams knew their practices would be reviewed, and subject to punishment, these violations would end in a heartbeat.

steelbtexan
02-08-2009, 12:56 PM
Ummm ... remember how we used to block ? :whip:

I've been trying to forget how we used to block.

If it takes a 4th rd. draft choice to help me forget this memory then I'm all for status quo.

gtexan02
02-08-2009, 12:57 PM
That was before there was video evidence. And sworn statements. The playing field has changed, now.

If the NFL really wants to crackdown on this practice, they would request the tapes of OTA's and mini camps from all 32 NFL teams for review. If these teams knew their practices would be reviewed, and subject to punishment, these violations would end in a heartbeat.

I understood that the affidavits were specifically requested for use with the legitimate complaint. Thats why Weary is so upset that his testimony is now being used by ESPN. He told ESPN that he never intended for Stevenson to use his signature in this fashion

Former Texans guard Fred Weary is not happy to be involved in the Texans practice story.

"I feel like Dan Stevenson did me a disservice," Weary said, according to Houston TV station Fox 26. At the time I signed it, I didn't think he would go to this extreme.

And Weary's statement also supports the Texans claim that these were not supposed to be full speed contact drills:

"In the Texans' defense they did tell us what was going on. They did give us parameters, like going half-speed during the drills.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3885900

disaacks3
02-08-2009, 01:09 PM
All of this adds up to the same answer.

Did the Texans do something wrong? Yes, most probably

However:
1. The complaint was made to the legitimate NFL governing sources, and Stevenson's complaint was denied. Other teams lost practice time last year, so the fact that Stevenson's claims as denied tells me something. That the NFL/McNair wanted these claims to disappear? That the NFL investigation actually considered a statement rom the Texans that "We never did this" as evidence? That the NFL doesn't want any more of these claims for the NFLPA to be able to use (via arbitration) vs. the league when the contract renews again?

2. Fred Weary, who originally signed the affidavit, is now upset with Stevenson. He even told ESPN that the Texans specifically said not to go full speed. The fact that the players decided to go full speed is not the Texans fault IMO In law there's a line of argument regarding evidence called "fruit of the poisonous tree". The (A) in this multi-step sequence is the Texans doing something they were prohibited from doing. Like you speeding down the freeway, it doesn't matter what others are doing if it's still against the rules. These are competitive guys trying to make an NFL squad - unless coaches are screaming in their face to SLOW DOWN, they're going to go as fast as they think is necessary to "beat" their man.

3. It wasn't until Stevenson lied to the Texans and his fellow teammates, snuck into the meeting and secretely video taped a confidential practice tape, and then went public to the media that people started to care. Be intellectually honest here. Did he have a choice? He went the legitimate route and got cheated by the so-called investigation. Why didn't the NFL investigation ever see tape of this practice?

This is all so sensationalistic, and thats the only reason anyone cares about this. The NFL already made their decision to deny Stevenson. So now he's trying to embarass the Texans in hopes that they settle with him to keep their image clean. Tried (past tense) to make a deal with the Texans, as that failed, he took the only real route available...go to the press.

The guy just seems to be dishonest. If the legitimate path comes back denied, you try again. You don't take this to ESPN in hopes of tarnishing someones image just to get paid. I disagree - he did what he was supposed to do (by the lettter) and got denied. I'm gathering that the NFL "review" is his LAST recourse as far as the NFL is concerned. Going with your assumption that the Texans probably DID do something wrong - see my replies in BOLD.

gtexan02
02-08-2009, 01:26 PM
Going with your assumption that the Texans probably DID do something wrong - see my replies in BOLD.

You are assuming that he got "cheated" when he went through legitimate means.

I don't buy it.

If the NFL players union and teams were all in cahoots to try and sweep this stuff under the rug all the time, why did multiple teams lose practice time for violating the exact same rule?

Im just not willing to buy into this being some mass conspiracy of everyone vs. the players. It just doesn't make sense

The Pencil Neck
02-08-2009, 01:28 PM
To me, the most important statement was up near the beginning of the stuff that GP transcribed.

The NFL denied his claim because the drills were not mandatory. Being "optional" drills, they are no longer illegal. To me, Stevenson is trying to get around the real crux of the issue. If he wants the NFL to come down on the Texans, he has to prove somehow that the drills were NOT optional. And they might have been mandatory but proving that they were mandatory is going to be difficult for him.

I'm really going to be surprised if anything comes from this. It just seems like the media is trying to make a story out of nothing. People are concentrating on the worst case, the losing of the draft picks, but unless this report starts a storm of controversy where guys from teams across the NFL come forward and complain about this practice, this is not going to get worst-case treatment. I expect the worst that happens from this is that Kubiak gets fined and I doubt that even happens.

Honoring Earl 34
02-08-2009, 01:43 PM
To me, the most important statement was up near the beginning of the stuff that GP transcribed.

The NFL denied his claim because the drills were not mandatory. Being "optional" drills, they are no longer illegal. To me, Stevenson is trying to get around the real crux of the issue. If he wants the NFL to come down on the Texans, he has to prove somehow that the drills were NOT optional. And they might have been mandatory but proving that they were mandatory is going to be difficult for him.

I'm really going to be surprised if anything comes from this. It just seems like the media is trying to make a story out of nothing. People are concentrating on the worst case, the losing of the draft picks, but unless this report starts a storm of controversy where guys from teams across the NFL come forward and complain about this practice, this is not going to get worst-case treatment. I expect the worst that happens from this is that Kubiak gets fined and I doubt that even happens.

Maybe this is what Kubiak means when he says ... player X is learning what it means to be a pro . He comes out , works hard , and practices like a pro .

Runner
02-08-2009, 01:49 PM
The NFL denied his claim because the drills were not mandatory. Being "optional" drills, they are no longer illegal.

Calling them optional is the way a team can cover it's collective butt. They can show the league their documented practice plan where it clearly states the drills aren't mandatory. If I was writing it up, I'd throw in a fine system for players that go "too hard". Then once my paperwork is in order, I'd continue doing what I want to do. Now if anything happens, it is the player's fault.

The players know that skipping such "optional" drills is a huge black mark against them, even though team documentation is squeeky clean. They really aren't optional if you are a marginal player trying to make a roster.

As I've said, most teams do this, and most players suck it up and participate because they understand it is the way of the league. I think believing the players can skip these optional drills with no repercussions is ignoring the reality of the situation.

The Pencil Neck
02-08-2009, 02:08 PM
Calling them optional is the way a team can cover it's collective butt. They can show the league their documented practice plan where it clearly states the drills aren't mandatory. If I was writing it up, I'd throw in a fine system for players that go "too hard". Then once my paperwork is in order, I'd continue doing what I want to do. Now if anything happens, it is the player's fault.

The players know that skipping such "optional" drills is a huge black mark against them, even though team documentation is squeeky clean. They really aren't optional if you are a marginal player trying to make a roster.

As I've said, most teams do this, and most players suck it up and participate because they understand it is the way of the league. I think believing the players can skip these optional drills with no repercussions is ignoring the reality of the situation.

But that's irrelevant to the real point.

The real point, at least to me, is whether the Texans are going to be punished for this. And if Stevenson goes around concentrating on the drills and not concentrating on why the NFL rejected his claim, he's just spinning his wheels. He hasn't given the NFL any reason to change their minds.

People are saying that the Texans broke the rules. But... did they? As you say, if they have squeaky clean paperwork and they're able to show that the drills fell within the limits of the CBA, then they technically didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't face any punishment.

Now, do I personally think that a player can skip one of these optional drills without retribution? No, I don't. But as long as the Texans have put in the right paperwork and given players the option to not do the drill (even though they'd be ridiculed and almost assuredly cut from the team at the first opportunity), then this is not illegal. The NFL is not going to be taking away draft choices or fining anyone.

I believe that the problem that other teams have had with these sorts of drills is that they've made a mistake and portrayed them as mandatory. Because, in the coaches minds, they really are mandatory and they forget to portray them as optional.

infantrycak
02-08-2009, 02:14 PM
Calling them optional is the way a team can cover it's collective butt. They can show the league their documented practice plan where it clearly states the drills aren't mandatory. If I was writing it up, I'd throw in a fine system for players that go "too hard". Then once my paperwork is in order, I'd continue doing what I want to do. Now if anything happens, it is the player's fault.

The players know that skipping such "optional" drills is a huge black mark against them, even though team documentation is squeeky clean. They really aren't optional if you are a marginal player trying to make a roster.

As I've said, most teams do this, and most players suck it up and participate because they understand it is the way of the league. I think believing the players can skip these optional drills with no repercussions is ignoring the reality of the situation.

As a practical reality you are of course right the drills aren't really optional. That said, the CBA and NFL allow "optional" drills so teams are going to use them. There needs to be an across the board rule against optional drills if they want it stopped.

Runner
02-08-2009, 02:17 PM
But that's irrelevant to the real point.



No - I now see we're just talking about two different points. I'm talking about the leaguewide flagrant violation of the CB agreement, and my point is relevant.

You are talking about the specific Texans/Stevenson instantiation, and I didn't intend to be commenting on that.

Runner
02-08-2009, 02:19 PM
As a practical reality you are of course right the drills aren't really optional. That said, the CBA and NFL allow "optional" drills so teams are going to use them. There needs to be an across the board rule against optional drills if they want it stopped.

Yep. I don't know how the NFLPA turned out this way, but they seem very weak compared to their baseball and basketball counterparts.

The Pencil Neck
02-08-2009, 02:57 PM
No - I now see we're just talking about two different points. I'm talking about the leaguewide flagrant violation of the CB agreement, and my point is relevant.

My post wasn't in response to yours. It was in response to GP's original transcriptions.

The issue about whether these drills should be allowed or not is a totally different issue to me.

When the players union made this agreement and created allowance for these "optional" drills, they couldn't have been so naive as to expect them to really be optional. If they did, then it's very short-sighted on their part. The fact that this "rule" is broken all the time and by most if not all teams means that one of two things needs to happen: they get rid of the drills entirely regardless of whether they're called optional or not or they allow them.

Drew_Smoke
02-08-2009, 03:35 PM
I did not read all 5 pages of this thread but I did just watch the show.

I think, like was said over and over, that this is common among all of the teams. Doesn't make it okay but if they want it stopped...they need to crack down on all.

But..if what Stevenson said about Rick Smith...that he yelled at him and questioned his integrity, ect....that should be his job. Thats not who I want running the team I cheer for. I want people who do whats right everytime and lets the chips fall where they may.

Should have just paid the guy what he was owed. Mo' Dead $$$$.

Wolf
02-08-2009, 09:06 PM
I think Keith nailed it.IMO
I think to many fans, this is akin to getting a speeding ticket for driving 45 in a 35 mph zone on a sunshiny afternoon, but it is breaking the rule nonetheless. I do not fault Stevenson for sticking up for himself or his livelihood, and I am disappointed in the Texans for making his post-injury medical adjudication another off-field drama.


http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/showthread.php?t=418

mexican_texan
02-08-2009, 11:37 PM
Methinks the Texans need better insurance.

GP
02-08-2009, 11:50 PM
It would be naive to think that a team, our team specifically, is above the shenanigans that you'd think you'd find on a "bad" team.

I have to admit that I was (and still am, to a degree) very angered that the Texans management dealt with this issue the way they did...then, they try to pay for Black's surgery while also claiming it was not in any way evidence of the teams' liability. Intellectually speaking, the Texans did a wrong thing and then they went and compounded the wrong thing via several missteps: Paying for a surgery they said they weren't going to pay for, claiming it was not evidence of liability, Rick Smith yelling at Stevenson and questioning his integrity, Kubiak shrugging off attempts by Brown and Breuner to confront him on the issue. The list goes on, probably a lot more than we'd like to know.

Which leads me to this: There's no telling how much complete GARBAGE is happening in the organization that we don't know about. People say you wouldn't eat hot dog weenies if you saw how they were made. And that goes for the inner-workings of huge, multi-million dollar companies.

While I lost some respect for Kubiak and Rick Smith, I have to be a big boy and realize that there is a lot of TRASH like this going on within the Texans every day, as well as with the Dolphins, the Jets, the Lakers, the Phillies, and any other sports organization at any other level for that matter.

We'd like to think that our team is the team of the "good guys." That our top guys take care of our players like Dick Winters took care of his Band of Brothers in WWII and beyond. But that's not the case. It's a meat grinder out there. Period.

So, for me, I had to spend the day rolling those things around in my head. I won't watch the team the same, knowing that the "good guys" are more likely to be "average, problematic guys". I wish I had never seen this crap, but now I am dealing with it. I'll find a way to compartmentalize it away into that section of my brain where I stash things that are justified and rationalized.

The things that bothers me the most is this: We won't even LOOK at a guy like Cedric Benson because, gosh darn it, we're a team of character and we don't need that junk on our team. But we'll engage in a prohibited drill (Article 36, section 4) that outlaws LIVE BLOCKING and gets three guys hurt. There's a reason this drill was run when the public wasn't there, and there's a reason the trainer's report was doctored up, and there's a reason the Texans finally paid up for Black's surgery. In the process, guys who stand up for themselves are being demonized for doing the right thing. But we have standards. We won't take on a classless player, even if he would fill a much-needed spot. We're the good guys.

It's entirely possible that a guy like Cedric Benson would NOT help us, that he'd be a bust or a locker room cancer, etc. I "get" that. What I am referring to is Uncle Bob's relentless pursuit of marketing this team as a first-class organization that "takes care" of those who are employed there. In fact, it hurts worse because our team does so much to put off that image of goodness and wholesomeness, compared to other teams. In essence: The kid who got straight A's in school, and kinda' smirked at the problematic kids the whole time, just got caught spray-painting graffiti in the bathroom two days before graduation.

A little bit of the bloom has come off THAT rose, whether we like it or not.

This story, on OTL, and on the ESPN website and ticker across the TV screen all week long, is very very bad P.R. for the Texans, especially the way Bob has tried to market this team to the world.

However...you offer a player a lot of money to come here, and his agent is going to convince the player that this sort of thing happened on all 32 teams, and that the Texans are far from the worst team in the league to play for. And that, is that. Swept up, mopped up, polished up, folded up, tucked neatly away in an area of the brain reserved for the compartmentalization of things to be justified and rationalized.

:trophy:

Wolf
02-09-2009, 12:05 AM
three sides to every story, my side, your side, and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

Was what happened wrong? YES, I echo what Weary said, players and coaches start out saying "go half speed" and the players do that, but a little thing like competitiveness kicks in and drills go by and by and then they go a little more than half speed, and pick up the pace, Coaches are concentrating on the drills and they don't realize after 15 minutes that the intensity has picked up, coaches are in the groove of watching and running drills, players are concentrating on the drills and moving right along.. and EVERYONE gets lost in the moment. Before you know it everyone is going full speed and the brakes haven't put on (YES that is the coaches responsibility and they failed to stop it).

I feelings are that , if no one got hurt, nothing would have ever been said.

However, if what was true about the incident being brought up to Kubiak and he really did say "I will run it the way I want to" and it is full speed again on the next day....then Kubiak needs to be fined and the Texans need to lose a draft pick.

IF all 32 teams are doing this, then NFLPA and the NFL needs to put an end to half assed drills and let the players run sprints (or whatever ),study playbooks and work on technique with tackling dummies or something so no one gets hurt like this again.

gtexan02
02-09-2009, 08:52 AM
A little bit of the bloom has come off THAT rose, whether we like it or not.

I can't help but laugh a little at some of the people I see piling on the Texans for this. I guess I shouldn't be surprsied, as most seem to be the same ones who regularly take whatever opportunity is presented to complain about the team. Its just the attitude that suddenly this is the penultimate reason.

Some teams hire guys with multiple criminal convictions or off the field problems.
There are at least two teams I can think of currently starting guys suspected of murder.

We've got a team that allegedly let a few blocking drills get a little too physical.
And somehow those are now equated?


Believe what you will and pretend to be shocked by this all you want. But Im not about to believe this going to be "very, very bad PR" for the Texans.

Personally I'm going to wait until I hear the Texans side of the story. Its funny how quickly everyone just jumps on the Stevenson bandwagon.

El Tejano
02-09-2009, 09:17 AM
All I know is we better make the playoffs/have a winning season this year or alot of jobs are going to get cut, starting with Kubiak.

GP
02-09-2009, 09:32 AM
three sides to every story, my side, your side, and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

Was what happened wrong? YES, I echo what Weary said, players and coaches start out saying "go half speed" and the players do that, but a little thing like competitiveness kicks in and drills go by and by and then they go a little more than half speed, and pick up the pace, Coaches are concentrating on the drills and they don't realize after 15 minutes that the intensity has picked up, coaches are in the groove of watching and running drills, players are concentrating on the drills and moving right along.. and EVERYONE gets lost in the moment. Before you know it everyone is going full speed and the brakes haven't put on (YES that is the coaches responsibility and they failed to stop it).

I feelings are that , if no one got hurt, nothing would have ever been said.

However, if what was true about the incident being brought up to Kubiak and he really did say "I will run it the way I want to" and it is full speed again on the next day....then Kubiak needs to be fined and the Texans need to lose a draft pick.

IF all 32 teams are doing this, then NFLPA and the NFL needs to put an end to half assed drills and let the players run sprints (or whatever ),study playbooks and work on technique with tackling dummies or something so no one gets hurt like this again.

Do you think the coaches are shocked that the "half-speed" idea eventually turns into a "full-speed" event over the course of the drill? No. They know darn well that's what is going to happen.

Quarter speed, half speed, full speed, it doesn't matter what "speed" it is being run at. The drill isn't supposed to be run AT ALL. Why is that getting lost here? Why are we making it a deal of the players being held responsible for how hard they go on the drill? They're not even supposed to be doing it AT ALL.

The NFL needs to do something. It would be expensive to assign a person (32 people, in total) to each team to monitor minicamp drills and document what's being done. On the flip side, they just accepted the Texans' LIE that there was nothing improper going on at the minicamp.

Someone said that this makes the NFLPA look very sloppy in comparison to MLB and NBA player unions. I agree. Why didn't Kris Brown and Mark Breuner contact the NFLPA or the league itself after Kubiak scoffed at the confrontation over the drills? Has anyone here thought about that? There's some accountability issues with Brown/Breuner. Which, as infantrycak said, "might" show that Brown & Breuner had no real interest in pushing the point with anybody. They just passed the message and walked away.

Maybe the NFL should do away with the fourth round, but all that would do is make the 7th round a 6th round (in reality). It seems all the teams are doing it. Maybe they won't be this year. But I would bet a few try to get away with it. Some will think they can hide it. Stevenson has open the floodgates for guys, in the future, to do the same thing. So it's possible that others will bust a team on the same premise. I wonder which team(s) will be stupid enough to continue the live blocking drills during minicamp?

GP
02-09-2009, 09:43 AM
I can't help but laugh a little at some of the people I see piling on the Texans for this. I guess I shouldn't be surprsied, as most seem to be the same ones who regularly take whatever opportunity is presented to complain about the team. Its just the attitude that suddenly this is the penultimate reason.

Some teams hire guys with multiple criminal convictions or off the field problems.
There are at least two teams I can think of currently starting guys suspected of murder.

We've got a team that allegedly let a few blocking drills get a little too physical.
And somehow those are now equated?


Believe what you will and pretend to be shocked by this all you want. But Im not about to believe this going to be "very, very bad PR" for the Texans.

Personally I'm going to wait until I hear the Texans side of the story. Its funny how quickly everyone just jumps on the Stevenson bandwagon.

I'm not the one who brags on the Texans every chance I get, talking about how fine our team is, the quality of people that we have on the roster, the way we want people to feel like they are part of a top-rate team when they step through the doors, blah-blah-blah.

Bob McNair is doing that. Not me.

He's selling this team as one that's not like the rest. Not me.

This just makes me wonder: (A) Bob doesn't know what in the heck is going on behind the scenes and he just gets some daily report or he walks around and shakes hands and is back in his office within 20 minutes, or (B) He knows darn well what's going on.

Either scenario is scary.

Anyone else here get the feeling that Bob is not very involved as an owner? That he tends to be too far removed from the scene? That he's trusting to a fault? I don't want a Jerry Jones-type, don't get me wrong, but this whole deal doesn't jive with what Bob wants people to think about the Texans.

This isn't the worst thing in the world that could happen to us, gtexan02, which is why I said "the bloom has come off the rose a little bit." It's not an atomic bomb or anything. It's just a little rip in the fabric of what Bob has been weaving since the team was built.

Bottom line: The live blocking, when prohibited, needs to never happen again. Nobody can argue with that. It's in the rules, it's an agreement, and contracts work both ways.