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done88
06-01-2004, 12:16 PM
Looks like ESPN thinks Palmer is going to open up the offense.

"That starts by emptying out Palmer's playbook, which hadn't been fully implemented until now because of the personnel fluctuations.
If the offense -- which ranked last in 2002 and next-to-last in 2003 -- indeed steps it up, the first casualty could be Carr's coif."


Does this mean more passes down the field? Might we see AJ run more reverse's? Will Davis throw a pass? to Carr? On 1st and more then ten will the Texans run something other then the draw?

I'm really excited to see what he has up his sleeve. We've heard what an offensive genius he is. I hope they open it up and we get some extream excitement.

Lucky
06-01-2004, 12:48 PM
Does this mean more passes down the field?
If the new Texan O-line proves it can protect Carr and stay away from the rampant procedure and holding penalties, the answer is likely yes. But if you think the Texans offense will ever resemble the Ram offense, you are going to be disappointed. Dom Capers & Mike Martz could not have more different football philosophies.

BTW, where did you see Chris Palmer and the word genius together in the same sentence?

J-Man
06-01-2004, 12:52 PM
I don't think too many of us have actually seen the Palmer playbook for real to project what it will be like when "opened up". The last time I remember him with full throttle on the offense was in Cleveland...and I don't remember it being a barn burner so to speak.

I easily admit that we were painfully conservative sometimes last year...in fact, I remember screaming at the TV a couple times last year in the close ones to go for the kill shot. I am hoping that we simply get more aggressive, particularly in the 2nd half if we are up or in striking distance.

aj.
06-01-2004, 01:13 PM
Capers lets Palmer act on his own for the most part but he's still plugged into the loop and has veto power over any play.

As far as opening up the playbook, I'd settle for a few third down conversions and sustained drives. Blow some people of the ball or finesse them to death, I don't care, just execute the plays like they are supposed to be executed and convert a few third downs for a change.

Palmer ran a very potent Jags offense in 97 and 98. They were 7th in the NFL in 97, and 11th in 98 in total yards. Brunell, Jimmy Smith and Keenan McCardell were the horses both years. Fred Taylor arrived in 98 and had over 1000 yards. They didn't have much of a running game in 97.

SBTexans08
06-01-2004, 01:16 PM
Chris Palmer's got to go....IMO.
Not really but my goodness.......open up the playbook for crying out loud!

Vinny
06-01-2004, 01:18 PM
You can't "open up the playbook" when you can't excute simple plays.

TheOgre
06-01-2004, 01:21 PM
Chris Palmer's got to go....IMO.
Not really but my goodness.......open up the playbook for crying out loud!

Steve Francis needs to be shipped out on the first train to Nowhere. Dotel needs to be canned. Tim Redding needs to be demoted to AAA...oh wait.

Any other overplayed fan cry I left out?

aj.
06-01-2004, 01:21 PM
But but on Madden...

BornOrange
06-01-2004, 01:31 PM
Looks like ESPN thinks Palmer is going to open up the offense.

"That starts by emptying out Palmer's playbook, which hadn't been fully implemented until now because of the personnel fluctuations.
If the offense -- which ranked last in 2002 and next-to-last in 2003 -- indeed steps it up, the first casualty could be Carr's coif."


Does this mean more passes down the field? Might we see AJ run more reverse's? Will Davis throw a pass? to Carr? On 1st and more then ten will the Texans run something other then the draw?

I'm really excited to see what he has up his sleeve. We've heard what an offensive genius he is. I hope they open it up and we get some extream excitement.

Oh yeah, I am really looking forward to Carr becoming a receiving threat. :crazy:
I have nothing against an occasional trick play, but if the Texans begin executing the plays they have been running they will do just fine.

Fiddy
06-01-2004, 01:33 PM
Oh yeah, I am really looking forward to Carr becoming a receiving threat. :crazy:Hey, Gaffney did throw a pass to Carr during the Dolphins game, Carr caught it too but he couldnt stay inbounds.

BuffSoldier
06-01-2004, 01:36 PM
Hopefully our playbook will be opened and we will throw more deep passes or see more play-action. Last year I remember running around the house yelling because they called a draw on 3rd and long.

texans
06-01-2004, 01:40 PM
yeah he needs to work on that and andre needs to work on his coverage ohh and dont forget seths pass protection that sucked last year :fight:

J-Man
06-01-2004, 01:41 PM
Hopefully our playbook will be opened and we will throw more deep passes or see more play-action. Last year I remember running around the house yelling because they called a draw on 3rd and long.

My point exactly!!! We have a guy with a licensed nuclear weapon for a right arm and we hand the ball off on to the RB on a belly play with no lead back...good gravy! Throw it downrange.

JDizzle
06-01-2004, 01:45 PM
I can recall just as many instances last season where we threw the deep ball and either the receiver *cough*andrejohnson*cough dropped it, or the quarterback *cough*davidcarr*cough* threw a bad ball.

SBTexans08
06-01-2004, 01:47 PM
Hey...I know that first we need to get the plays down.
Second would be to go out there with confindence that the play will be made.
After getting confidence and fine tuning plays comes "opening up the playbook" type plays.

What I was saying was that even if the Texans did get it going in that sense...I still think Palmer would be too conservative. For two season, expansion team seasons, a team is able to try this, try that...experiement if you will....and they didn't. The only play that comes to mind was when the went for it against Jacksonville this past season when Carr QB sneaked it in.

What I'm saying is try...open the playbook when you know your down and the only chance to keep the game alive is going for the daring play!

Another game that comes to mind is the Texans/Pats game in overtime when the Pats stopped the Texans and cause a loss of yardage when the Texans were in field goal range......what did Palmer call?.?.?.?. he called all running plays! He could have just kicked the field goal on 2nd down...if Brown would have missed it, he would have had another try, and then another................no...he went for all running plays and one screen play (not too sure of screenplay though)against a solid Patriots defense that smelled everything coming!

aj.
06-01-2004, 01:49 PM
I don't mind a well conceived gadget play now and then -- they have their place in the grand scheme of things but to me, running trick plays often means you don't have enough confidence in your offense to get it done by conventional means.

Of all the trick plays the Texans have run, I liked the throwback to Glenn at Jax in 02 and the fake punt at NO last year the best (because they worked of course). If they don't work, then everyone is screaming to fire Palmer. Didn't Gaffney also toss a TD to Bradford at Philly in 02?

Lucky
06-01-2004, 02:08 PM
...He could have just kicked the field goal on 2nd down...if Brown would have missed it, he would have had another try, and then another...
Once a team kicks the ball and misses on a field goal attempt, the ball is turned over to the other team. Regardless of what down it is. But, I get your point.

The past is the past. We are talking about the 1st 2 seasons of an expansion franchise, right? What happens in the future will be determined by how well the current offense performs. There are legit NFL starters at every position. The players should execute better. You know that, I know that, the coaching staff knows that. With that knowledge, Palmer will likely take more chances than the previous seasons.

But, the offense will never be mistaken for the run & shoot, fun & gun, or any other wide open offense with an "&" in the name. That doesn't mean it can't or won't be a winning offense. And Palmer doesn't have to be a genius. Just put the players in a position where they can be successful.

texasguy346
06-01-2004, 02:51 PM
"Once a team kicks the ball and misses on a field goal attempt, the ball is turned over to the other team. Regardless of what down it is."

That is of course provided it crosses the LOS I believe. Remember that Pittsburgh game last year?

SBTexans08
06-01-2004, 03:00 PM
"Once a team kicks the ball and misses on a field goal attempt, the ball is turned over to the other team. Regardless of what down it is."

That is of course provided it crosses the LOS I believe. Remember that Pittsburgh game last year?


No...do tell. :popcorn:

BornOrange
06-01-2004, 04:00 PM
Also, there are some good reasons to call a draw play every now and then on third and long.
1) You can catch the defense by surprise and run for a first down while everyone is going after the quarterback.
2) You slow the pass rush down a bit because they have to be aware of the draw play.
3) A draw play is really safe and avoids a sack or interception.

Face it. Capers is a defensive minded coach. Defensive coordinators love third and long because they have the offense in a bind and the defense has a chance to make a game-changing play through a sack or interception. So in a lot of third and long situations Capers is going to play it safe by going with the draw play and hoping to win field position with a good punt and a good defensive series, hoping the offense can execute better in the next series by not getting into a third and long situation.

BornOrange
06-01-2004, 04:05 PM
I don't mean to say that every third and long should be a draw play, or even half of the time. However, a draw play or a half back screen or some other safe play needs to be used often so the defense has to defend against it, making a downfield pass more likely to succeed when tried.

Teams that throw downfield every time in third and long situations are easy to defend against.

texasguy346
06-01-2004, 04:31 PM
I can't remember who Pittsburgh was playing, perhaps the Titans, but anyways they kicked the field goal on 3rd Down to win the game. It was blocked and never crossed the Line of Scrimmage. The refs gave them another try and the kicker made it to win the game. When I said last year I meant the 02 season not 03. Sorry have a hard time saying last season for 03 till the 04 season begins. Perhaps someone else remembers who they were playing against.

cuppacoffee
06-01-2004, 04:41 PM
Another game that comes to mind is the Texans/Pats game in overtime when the Pats stopped the Texans and cause a loss of yardage when the Texans were in field goal range......what did Palmer call?.?.?.?. he called all running plays! He could have just kicked the field goal on 2nd down...if Brown would have missed it, he would have had another try, and then another................no...he went for all running plays and one screen play (not too sure of screenplay though)against a solid Patriots defense that smelled everything coming!

:confused:

TheOgre
06-01-2004, 04:41 PM
Titans were playing the Steelers in the 2002 playoffs. Nedney missed a kick but there was a penalty on the Steelers and the Titans won on the rekick.

SESupergenius
06-01-2004, 04:48 PM
Just convert on 3rd downs and for Gods sake capitalize in the Red Zone. We were horrible there. i don't mind a trick play now and again, but we just don't blow people off the ball on 3rd down, even when we bring in Wand for a big set, we couldn't do anything.

TheOgre
06-01-2004, 06:02 PM
I think the worst part of the field for the Texans is between the opponents 40 and the 50. We seemed to bog down there a lot last season.

Porky
06-01-2004, 06:07 PM
I think some of you guys that are mad at Palmer need to redirect your anger at Capers. It is Capers philosphy that Palmer is executing. Palmer's offenses in general have been more of the wide open type. Look what he did in Jax. Capers is the more conservative, close to the vest style. He would rather stay close and let the defense win the game. The Texans will not blow out alot of teams, nor will they be blown out in many games, with Capers as coach. If they had taken some of the advice from this board, and "opened it up", last year would have been ugly. I do agree that we are at the point where the training wheels need to come off. It's time Carr and crew started peddling on their own. :baby:

done88
06-01-2004, 09:49 PM
BTW, where did you see Chris Palmer and the word genius together in the same sentence?


Baltimore, with the 26th-ranked offense, hired the latest "genius," Minnesota coordinator Brian Billick, as head coach. Billick guided the Vikings to the highest points total in league history, but he doesn't have those kinds of tools here.

Coach Chris Palmer, like Billick an offensive mastermind, eventually will turn to top overall pick Tim Couch at quarterback.

When the Texans hired Palmer everyone said he was a great offensive mind. They said his mistake was trying to move from offense to head coach. He was supposed to be one of the best offensive coordinators in the league. The problem is the Texans did not have the talent therefore he had problems. Now on the trick plays. The problem with 1st and more then 10 draws is that the Texans were not surprising anyone. They did it consistantly. Capers limited the offense because he wanted to give the defense the chance to win games. Now he will let Palmer run those trick plays and watch what happens when defensive ends have to saty home to protect against the reverse. Watch when defensive backs have to cover everyone coming out of the backfield (including the QB) and therefore are not as effective on run support. Those trick plays are valuable wheather they gain a lot of yards or not. They are more valuable for the situations they put the defense in then they are for scores or yardage. The Offense without trick plays is like the defense without stunts. Neither can be effective without them. No I don't expect the Rams. But I do expect explosiviness in the offense. The offense will be a threat to score on every play. :soapbox:

Lucky
06-01-2004, 10:56 PM
When the Texans hired Palmer everyone said he was a great offensive mind. ...Now he will let Palmer run those trick plays and watch what happens...
I don't want to get into a link posting contest, but I don't think "everyone" thought, coming out of Cleveland, Palmer was a great offensive mind. I'd say opinion on Palmer was mixed, and remains that today.

As far as trick plays are concerned, that RB option pass by Mack in the 4th quarter of the Jax game still burns in my gut. That was a indefensibly stupid call on Palmer's part that could have cost the Texans the game. A trick play on occasion can keep a defense on their toes and force them to play honest. No team employs these type plays better than New England. But they can't be a staple of a NFL offense and there is a right and wrong time to break them out.

DominatorDavis
06-01-2004, 11:02 PM
Some guys are down on Palmer. I like him. He is optimistic and creative. He is the best guy for the job and has a stellar record to boot. Players like and respect him and he is as straight up as they get. He'll say it right to you.

Accept some resumes that are floating out there right now at the college and NFL level and find a better candidate for offensive coordinator. Who is more qualified? Someone quoted the stats from Jacksonville in 97-99, I think that those numbers stand for themselves. Capers and Casserly know what he is capable of with the right mix - *that* is why he is our OC right.

We are going into our 3rd year. We are still coming out of infancy and just reaching 'toddlerhood'. There are teams with more superbowl wins under their belt then we have in seasons. This is a tough hill to climb. How do we compete with a team that is 20 years old? Tampa didn't win many games for a long time and only in recent years have been successful. I think that some analysts now see them as a legitimate contender Some people point out that CP did not accomplish much with the Browns when he was there. That is just crazy talk. Weren't they a new franchise at the time too? Plus he was the head coach not the offensive coordinator - He has a different role with the Texans then he did with the Browns.

The offensive players on the Texans are also the guys that Palmer scouted for a full year prior to the 2002 Draft and put in his influence throughout the selection process. These are his guys. This is essentailly his baby and a project that he is ready to show more of what it can do.

done88
06-01-2004, 11:25 PM
As far as trick plays are concerned, that RB option pass by Mack in the 4th quarter of the Jax game still burns in my gut. That was a indefensibly stupid call on Palmer's part that could have cost the Texans the game. A trick play on occasion can keep a defense on their toes and force them to play honest. No team employs these type plays better than New England. But they can't be a staple of a NFL offense and there is a right and wrong time to break them out.

I agree with this statement. I don't want to see every other play down the field or a trick play. However the holding back of the offense has hurt Carr's development. Teams schemed for the limited plays the Texans called last year. The Texans were playing against defenses that knew what play was coming. If they open up the offense and allow Carr change the play at the line then better things will happen. Last year when carr saw a defense he did not like his play was always wither Davis off tackle or draw. When teams heard him change the play they were licking their chops. This year Capers will turn Palmer loose and Carr will be one of the top three QB's in the NFL.

edo783
06-01-2004, 11:28 PM
For most fans the right time for a trick play is when it works and the wrong time is when it fails.

Vinny
06-01-2004, 11:29 PM
However the holding back of the offense has hurt Carr's development.I have the exact opposite take on this. I feel Carr held back the offense to a certain degree (along with the other young players).

Lucky
06-01-2004, 11:37 PM
...Some people point out that CP did not accomplish much with the Browns when he was there. That is just crazy talk. Weren't they a new franchise at the time too? Plus he was the head coach not the offensive coordinator...
Palmer was also the OC for the Browns. Crazy or not, Palmer was fired. Whether the Browns lack of success was Palmers fault or not, it wasn't a high point in his career.

You and others like Palmer, some don't, some are on the fence. It really doesn't matter what success or failure Palmer has had in the past. Right now, he's the offensive coordinator of the Houston Texans and will be for the foreseeable future. It's the success of this offense that Palmer will be judged on here.

The offensive players on the Texans are also the guys that Palmer scouted for a full year prior to the 2002 Draft and put in his influence throughout the selection process. These are his guys. This is essentailly his baby and a project that he is ready to show more of what it can do.
This paragraph is the bottom line on Palmer's future. This is "his baby" and I agree he'll be more aggressive this season due to the experience gained and the talent collected.

Wolf
06-01-2004, 11:41 PM
the key statement in the last quote was Palmer had a full year to scout for us prior to draft. With the Browns I believe he had about 2 weeks to scout and assemble his staff or something to that effect. What I can remember is that it wasn't long

rittenhouserobz
06-02-2004, 01:13 AM
One thing is for sure the offense can't get any worse. 32nd and 31st finishes in team offense. That is what has to improve. I don't really care if it is 20th. They just need more consistant movement of ball up the field.

aj.
06-02-2004, 07:29 AM
How do we compete with a team that is 20 years old? Tampa didn't win many games for a long time and only in recent years have been successful.Tampa was 10-6 and went to the NFC championship game in their 4th year of existence, before modern free agency existed.

Regardless of what they look like today, the new Browns also went from not existing to the playoffs in 4 years, which set the benchmark for the modern era for going from nothing to something.

DominatorDavis
06-02-2004, 08:45 AM
Tampa actually went 11-5. But you're point is well noted. However it took them much longer to become a legitimate team than 4 years. NFC playoffs or not they were dubbed the "Yucks" forever.

I agree with rittenhouserobz the Houston offense can't really me much worse than it was in the last two seasons and if I recall correctly our offense early on in the 2003 season was ranked 10th overall in the NFL. So it showed some flashes last year which was a precursor of what is to come. I remember being very excited about that. They will improve it will just take time.

DominatorDavis
06-02-2004, 08:50 AM
My bad AJ and sorry guys - Tampa Bay was 10-6 durning the 79 season. I was looking at their overall losses that year - playoffs included then just did the math backwards.

TheOgre
06-02-2004, 09:01 AM
I don't want to get into a link posting contest, but I don't think "everyone" thought, coming out of Cleveland, Palmer was a great offensive mind. I'd say opinion on Palmer was mixed, and remains that today.


I disagree. He was part of some very productive offenses in Houston, New England, and Jacksonville before getting the head coaching gig in Cleveland. I think the general perception was that he wasn't ready to be a head coach and that he needed to go back to what he did well, coach an offense.

He was the wide receivers coach for the Oilers from 1990-1992 when they ran the run-and-shoot. He got a lot out of them. He joined Parcell's staff in 1993 and was the wide receivers coach for 3 years. In 1996, he became the quarterbacks coach. Look at Bledsoe's TD to INT ratio that season compared to his first 3 years in the league. It is no coincidence this was the only year he actually led the Patriots to the Super Bowl.
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1041

He got the OC gig in Jacksonville and helped Brunell significantly cut down on his INT's too. Brunell's too highest QB ratings to date were with Palmer at his side. http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1032

There is really no questioning his resume on offense.

edo783
06-02-2004, 10:52 AM
Perhaps some of the issue that we are experincing is that we have an OC that is offensivly orientated and a Head Coach that is defensivly orientated. That has to cause a bit of schisophrinia (sp) on how the team operates, particularly at the phylisophical (sp) level. We have a OC trying to figure out how to be conservative in his calls when he is by nature more open offensive minded.

done88
06-02-2004, 12:40 PM
Perhaps some of the issue that we are experincing is that we have an OC that is offensivly orientated and a Head Coach that is defensivly orientated. That has to cause a bit of schisophrinia (sp) on how the team operates, particularly at the phylisophical (sp) level. We have a OC trying to figure out how to be conservative in his calls when he is by nature more open offensive minded.
I've thought the same thing but could not put it into words. Well said

aj.
06-02-2004, 01:35 PM
However it took them much longer to become a legitimate team than 4 years

As far as I'm concerned, they proved they were a legit team in '79 when they went to the NFC championship game, and they proved it wasn't a fluke by winning the division again two years later. Yes, they had some terrible years before and after that but I think they had organizational issues for years that affected the type of teams they put on the field. That's not my point.

What is my point is the fact that Tampa could call themselves division champs after 4 years of existence, starting from nothing, in an era where free agency as we know it didn't exist and success largely depended on drafting well and executing good trades.

What is also my point is that:

Cleveland went from zero to the playoffs in 4 years in the era of modern free agency.

Jax went from zero to the AFC championship game in 2 years by drafting well and filling in other key positions with solid FA acquisitions. They (and Carolna) had the advantage of it being an era where a lot of teams didn't yet understand cap constraints and as a result, there were a lot of good FAs available back then. However, Jax used the draft to build moreso than Carolina.

Carolina went from zero to the NFC championship game in 2 years using FA as their primary model. Their success was understandably short lived.

The Texans had a boat load of veteran expansion draft selections and have drafted in the top 10 for the last three seasons. The argument about "how can we compete with a team that has been around for 20 years" is weak. If the other teams I mentioned can do it (go to the playoffs in 4 years), so can we. That's my point.

Now, depending on what method you choose to build your team and whether it can be sustained is an entirely different argument. But, that said, Cleveland used the most conservative model of those I mentioned and was still able to "get there" in 4 years.

Lucky
06-02-2004, 03:17 PM
I disagree. He was part of some very productive offenses in Houston, New England, and Jacksonville before getting the head coaching gig in Cleveland.

There is really no questioning his resume on offense.
Are you disagreeing with anyone questioning Palmer's resume or are you questioning whether anyone has questioned Palmer's resume? You make some points regarding Palmer's coaching history. But, he has had critics in the past. I'll link some if you want, but what's the point?

Palmer was the WR coach with the Oilers, and the R&S put up big numbers. When you have guys like Jeffires, Givens, & Hill, it's hard not to be successful. Did that make the Oiler offense a great offense? No, it was very flawed and was exposed in the playoffs.

Palmer is credited with doing an excellent job working with Bledsoe (By Bledsoe himself as well). But, Palmer was never the OC at New England. Most people think that it was "no coincidence" that Bledsoe only got to the Super Bowl with Bill Parcells as his head coach.

Palmer's offenses in Jax faired very well. But he did have a top O-line anchored by one of the great tackles in NFL history, a premier set of WRs in Smith & McCardell, an excellent pair of RB's in Taylor & Stewart, and an athletic, strong-armed QB in his prime in Brunell. And he was running virtually the same offense his buddy Kevin Gilbride did the previous year when the Jags went the AFC Championship game. It's not as if he turned a bunch of scrubs into a fine tuned unit.

Of course Palmer's offense stunk in Cleveland. No surprise, they were an expansion team. How much was it Palmer, how much the players? Who knows, who cares? Palmer has been an OC for 6 seasons total. 2 good seasons with Pro Bowl caliber players. 4 not so good seasons with expansion teams. Pretty much what you'd expect. When Palmer has a good O-line, a outstanding group of skilled position players, and a top QB...he becomes a genius. Here's to hoping that Palmer reaches genius status again this season. :)

DominatorDavis
06-02-2004, 04:10 PM
-AJ-

"they [the Buccaneers] had organizational issues for years that affected the type of teams they put on the field"

Legit teams start by having competent ownership and management.

Capers is growing it slowly - growing it right. Grooming guys for not just one Championship but for continued success season after season. In Carolina he admitted that he signed too many veterans and tried to grow it too quickly. Every franchise who has tried to do that has faced aged players and cap constraints. When you have to cut a quality veteran to sign your draft class that is a pretty clear sign that you have mis-managed the salary cap. Which consequently harms your team in the long run. And Capers does not want to be faced with that again. In Carolina after they all retired or were cut, the team went down hill. He ended up loosing favor with the fans and the local media here in North Carolina. I still hear people talk about their experience with the Panthers and Dom Capers. He was then later fired. Lesson?

And on a side note, if you really believe that Tampa was legit after the 79 season then you may also have the belief that the Cardinals are a legit team since they won a championship back in the 30's or something. I dont buy that. Tampa was awful. They were the butt of a bunch of jokes on Sports Center. Who cares about 79' when they were that bad for that long? They were the butt of my own jokes between friends. The truth is that they were not legit. How can you say that? They had loosing season after loosing season and really didnt come into their own untill Sam Wyche was hired and then fully bloomed with Dungy. Not to mention the flash and bang of Gruden. If they loose again next year people will be calling for his head as well. Loosing GM Rich McKay to the Falcons wont help Gruden out either. That guy is the best.

I guess my point is that is not realistic to expect a Championship in 4 years even though the NFL is peppered with examples throughout its history. There are innumerable examples of a four year plan going very wrong as well. Many many more that did not work then did. Besides the Texans and McNair have already stated publically to a 5 year playoff plan. And that to me, looking at where our team needs to grow, seems more tangable.

Patience grasshopper.

Having said all that, if they do indeed perform better than expectations then that is just a super feeling. But if they don't perform then people want to roll out the guillotine. IMO.

aj.
06-02-2004, 06:16 PM
Grasshopper? Funny. I've been watching the NFL since Larry Csonka was a rookie.

Who's expecting a championship? I don't see the Texans making the playoffs this year. In numerous threads I've predicted 8-8 this year and that if 7-9 happens, I could roll with it considering the circumstances.

My point all along in all these ramblings was that based on history (the new-Browns precedent specifically) it's not unrealistic to start thinking playoffs in the 4th year of a startup franchise. My statement: "If the other teams I mentioned can do it (go to the playoffs in 4 years), so can we" does not equate to playoff "expectations" (much less championship). But it does mean that we are getting close to the point (one more year) where we can realistically talk about playoffs, but not necessarily "expect" it. I store hopes and expectations in separate bins.

Again, I think the new-Browns have set the benchmark that's most relevant to our situation. Really the only thing I objected to was your statement: "How do we compete with a team that is 20 years old?" which to me is irrelevant. Show me a team that's 20 years old and I'll show you a team that's turned over it's roster about 5 times.

Plus, I'm about the last person you would find around here with unrealistic expectations. I was an Oilers season ticket holder for about 20 years.

I'm not old enough to remember the Cardinals teams of the 30's (actually they last won a championship in '47 per this (http://users4.ev1.net/~aburge/ChampionshipFutility.htm) article that was written before the 2004 Super Bowl), but they did have some very good (and legit) teams in the mid 70's with Jim Hart, Jim Otis, Terry Metcalf, Dan Dierdorf, Conrad Dobler, Mel Gray and others -- teams that I enjoyed watching very much. They fielded those very good and very legit teams despite the fact that they have been one of the most poorly run franchises in NFL history.

I think we agree on much more than we disagree on.

DominatorDavis
06-02-2004, 10:27 PM
I indeed agree with that.

TheOgre
06-03-2004, 12:05 PM
Palmer was the WR coach with the Oilers, and the R&S put up big numbers. When you have guys like Jeffires, Givens, & Hill, it's hard not to be successful. Did that make the Oiler offense a great offense? No, it was very flawed and was exposed in the playoffs.

Palmer is credited with doing an excellent job working with Bledsoe (By Bledsoe himself as well). But, Palmer was never the OC at New England. Most people think that it was "no coincidence" that Bledsoe only got to the Super Bowl with Bill Parcells as his head coach.

Palmer's offenses in Jax faired very well. But he did have a top O-line anchored by one of the great tackles in NFL history, a premier set of WRs in Smith & McCardell, an excellent pair of RB's in Taylor & Stewart, and an athletic, strong-armed QB in his prime in Brunell. And he was running virtually the same offense his buddy Kevin Gilbride did the previous year when the Jags went the AFC Championship game. It's not as if he turned a bunch of scrubs into a fine tuned unit.

Basically what I am reading from you is that Palmer had relatively no impact as a coach, because he happened to be in the right situation at the right time.

Parcells had been Bledsoe's coach the 3 previous years yet year 4, Palmer's one as quarterbacks coach, his TD-INT ratio changed drastically. Sure there are a lot of factors that could have led to this, but you cannot overlook the fact that Palmer was his QB coach.

The next year he goes to Jacksonville and the same exact thing happens to Brunell. Sure his buddy Gilbride was there the previous season, but the TD-INT ratio was not very good that year. It suddenly improved drastically the next season. Again it could have been anything that led to this change, but you cannot overlook the fact that Palmer was there.

I agree that he had good QB's and overall offenses in both New England and Jacksonville. I just tend to think that he made good offenses even better. Perhaps the stats say something to me they do not to you. If that is that case, Lucky, I'll agree to disagree. :fight: :popcorn:

J-Man
06-03-2004, 01:13 PM
One thing I have noticed on this thread is that there is a pretty even split with the Palmer fans and haters. I honestly think that only at the end of this year can we really make a good assesment of the offensive scheme and how it's being executed.

The players will have had Palmer's stamp on them for 3yrs, Carr particularly. No rookies will be starting (fingers crossed!) and there is a high degree of team chemistry in play. The conditions have been set over the 1st 2 seasons to see what are offense is capable of doing.

I think that the stat info from Palmer's previous gigs that we have been seeing could easily be viewed Pro or Con for Palmer. I am undecided at this point and while I admit to some serious frustrations a couple times last year I am willing to ride this season out and see how things shake out.

Lucky
06-03-2004, 01:54 PM
Basically what I am reading from you is that Palmer had relatively no impact as a coach, because he happened to be in the right situation at the right time.

If that is that case, Lucky, I'll agree to disagree.
Well, I still don't know exactly what the disagreement is about. I did not say that Palmer has not made an impact as a coach. What I did take disagreement with was the notion that Palmer is universally thought of as a "great offensive mind" or an "offensive genius". If someone cuts Palmer slack for his lack of success with expansion offenses (and they should) then they canít give him all the credit when playing with a stacked deck. Somewhere between "no impact" & "offensive genius" is where the truth probably lies.