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infantrycak
01-01-2009, 10:12 AM
So here it is from Stats Inc. once again:

Duane Brown--11.5 sacks, 2 false starts, 1 hold
Ephraim Salaam--2 sacks, 3 false starts
Chester Pitts--2.5 sacks, 1 hold
Chris Meyers--0 sacks, 3 false starts (how the f'n hell does that happen), 1 hold
Mike Briesel--2 sacks, 3 false starts, 3 holds
Eric Winston--8 sacks, 4 false starts

So, 32 total sacks. 26 assigned to the line. Leaves 8 for the RBs, TEs and QBs.

Eric Winston had a rough year. Totally dominant at time, especially on rushing, and flat footed whiffing at times.

HJam72
01-01-2009, 10:24 AM
Winston for Left Tackle! :jk:

HJam72
01-01-2009, 10:25 AM
So how do those 11.5 sacks for Brown compare to an average LT?

infantrycak
01-01-2009, 10:34 AM
So how do those 11.5 sacks for Brown compare to an average LT?

Poorly, but Alex Gibbs and the other coaches apparently love him and he has shown improvement as the year went on. For comparison, Pitts gave up 15.5 sacks in 2002 and reduced it to 5.5 in 2003 at LT. He certainly hasn't come out as an instantly dominant LT but this is the big jump off-season.

eriadoc
01-01-2009, 10:40 AM
I liken Brown's season to Winston's, actually. I saw some great things from both of them, mostly in the run game, but they had some rough patches in pass pro. Seeing Brown 20 yards downfield blocking for Slaton was freakin' sweet, though!

mexican_texan
01-01-2009, 12:03 PM
I don't think Winston played until his 2nd season. He says Duane is further along in his rookie season than he was his 2nd season

ObsiWan
01-01-2009, 12:24 PM
So here it is from Stats Inc. once again:

Duane Brown--11.5 sacks, 2 false starts, 1 hold
Ephraim Salaam--2 sacks, 3 false starts
Chester Pitts--2.5 sacks, 1 hold
Chris Meyers--0 sacks, 3 false starts (how the f'n hell does that happen), 1 hold
Mike Briesel--2 sacks, 3 false starts, 3 holds
Eric Winston--8 sacks, 4 false starts

So, 32 total sacks. 26 assigned to the line. Leaves 8 for the RBs, TEs and QBs.

Eric Winston had a rough year. Totally dominant at time, especially on rushing, and flat footed whiffing at times.

didn't two of them happen against the Bears?
one time it looked like he moved the ball prematurely... the other time it looked like he snapped the ball late.

Insideop
01-01-2009, 12:27 PM
So how do those 11.5 sacks for Brown compare to an average LT?

I saw somewhere a list of the LT's and sacks given up and Brown was tied for the worst. I'll try to find that list and provide a link.

ChampionTexan
01-01-2009, 12:30 PM
I don't think Winston played until his 2nd season. He says Duane is further along in his rookie season than he was his 2nd season

Winston started 7 games his rookie year, and played in 5 others.

b0ng
01-01-2009, 12:48 PM
So how do those 11.5 sacks for Brown compare to an average LT?

I think Browns sack numbers will fall just because he doesn't have to face Jared Allen, James Harrison, Joey Porter, and Terrell Suggs next year. Browns rookie season featured a metric shitload of elite pass rushers. 2 of those guys are candidates for DPOY and both posted sack numbers in the high teens.

I'm not saying Brown is the second coming of Orlando Pace, because he obviously has a ton of work to do on his technique (Same to you Winston!). But I think we're going to see a significant drop in the number of sacks both of our tackles give up next year.

mexican_texan
01-01-2009, 12:58 PM
Winston started 7 games his rookie year, and played in 5 others.
It was only two years ago, but that season is really hazy. It's probably me just blocking out that 2005 season.

The Pencil Neck
01-01-2009, 01:52 PM
Chris Meyers--0 sacks, 3 false starts (how the f'n hell does that happen), 1 hold

There are a lot of things that a center can do to try to induce the defense to jump offsides and then there are just mistakes. You can doubleclutch the snap. You can move your body like you're about to snap but not. You can twitch your offhand or move your head quickly.

IIRC, he got caught doubleclutching a couple of times.

Lucky
01-01-2009, 02:05 PM
I think Browns sack numbers will fall just because he doesn't have to face Jared Allen, James Harrison, Joey Porter, and Terrell Suggs next year.
The Texans play the Dolphins in '09. Brown will also have to face Vanden Bosch and Freeney twice. Plus a host of young pass rushers who are likely to improve. Both Brown and Winston will need to get better, and I think they will.

BSofA04
01-01-2009, 02:06 PM
Brown settled down after the first four games, where he was overwhelmed. IMO, he performed as expected and should improve next season. Sure he had some bad plays over the season, but he also had some great games. I'm excited to see the progression he'll go through next season.

Runner
01-01-2009, 02:44 PM
So how do those 11.5 sacks for Brown compare to an average LT?

For reference.

Taking into consideration he didn't play about a third of the downs, his sack and penalty numbers were worse than Seth Wand's. Wand was 12 or 14 sacks and three penalties IIRC. And Brown wasn't blocking for David Carr.

He's a first round pick though, and that combined with no Joe Pendry should mean he will get a chance to grow into the role.*

*I don't know what will happen if a player the quality of Victor Riley falls into the Texans' lap though.

Overalls
01-01-2009, 02:55 PM
The Texans play the Dolphins in '09. Brown will also have to face Vanden Bosch and Freeney twice. Plus a host of young pass rushers who are likely to improve. Both Brown and Winston will need to get better, and I think they will.

He also had to face Vanden Bosch and Freeney twice last year. I am not overly impressed by him so far but he was thrown to the wolves with a pretty tough opening schedual last season. He was tested early and often those first four games before he had even got his feet wet. I am willing to give the man a brake on last year. Not that I have a choice.

:fans:

Vinny
01-01-2009, 02:58 PM
Is Seth Wand even in the league anymore? Are we still upset he was cut or what?

RipTraxx
01-01-2009, 02:59 PM
I for one, wasnt a fan of letting Salaam take over every couple series. I say let Brown take his bumps now and get them out of his system. After all he is the future. The reality is Salaam didnt play a bit better.

mexican_texan
01-01-2009, 03:05 PM
Is Seth Wand even in the league anymore? Are we still upset he was cut or what?
He was with the Titans and I think the Jaguars may have used him for a week or two as one of their tire patches for their O-line.

Ryan
01-01-2009, 03:06 PM
There is no way in hell Brisiel only had 3 false starts. Screw the statbooks.

Runner
01-01-2009, 03:07 PM
Is Seth Wand even in the league anymore? Are we still upset he was cut or what?

I am. :)

Just a point of reference from Texans history. Here's another.

Brown's numbers project out similar to Jordan Black's the year before the Texans picked him up. I'm not upset the Texans cut Black, although I thought signing him was silly.

Runner
01-01-2009, 03:11 PM
He was with the Titans and I think the Jaguars may have used him for a week or two as one of their tire patches for their O-line.

Not with the Jags, that was Spencer. He was with the Raiders for a while. He was even mentioned in the Al Davis letter. He's had six years in the league. Not a lot of PT, but good work if you can get it.

mexican_texan
01-01-2009, 03:35 PM
Not with the Jags, that was Spencer. He was with the Raiders for a while. He was even mentioned in the Al Davis letter. He's had six years in the league. Not a lot of PT, but good work if you can get it.
I figured it was a West team, but I would have guessed the Rams if not the Jaguars.

Number19
01-01-2009, 06:12 PM
Good post. I was waiting to see this. I suspected something like this, but 8 sacks by Winston! A veteran in his third year! This is not good. It would be beneficial to break this down by half seasons, to see if there was improvement, but we need better pass protection from this position.

HJam72
01-01-2009, 06:22 PM
There is no way in hell Brisiel only had 3 false starts. Screw the statbooks.

Hehehehehe.

nunusguy
01-01-2009, 06:52 PM
I still find his treatment and ultimately the circumstances surrounding his disposal here in Houston as inexplicable ? Especially for a young team like the Texans trying to develope some talent at such a key posiiton as OT ?
Actually Wands physical dimentions and athleticism remind me a lot of Winston, but I dunno if they'd been as patient with him as they've been with Eric ?

Vinny
01-01-2009, 06:57 PM
I still find his treatment and ultimately the circumstances surrounding his disposal here in Houston as inexplicable ? Especially for a young team like the Texans trying to develope some talent at such a key posiiton as OT ?
Actually Wands physical dimentions and athleticism remind me a lot of Winston, but I dunno if they'd been as patient with him as they've been with Eric ? Wand wasn't very good...donno why you compare him to Winston. Winston has struggled but he shows obvious signs of above average play most of the time. Wand was a stiff player and hasn't been able to start anywhere else in the league since he left.

Vinny
01-01-2009, 06:58 PM
Good post. I was waiting to see this. I suspected something like this, but 8 sacks by Winston! A veteran in his third year! This is not good. It would be beneficial to break this down by half seasons, to see if there was improvement, but we need better pass protection from this position.did you just notice this or what? Hello, McFly!

Number19
01-01-2009, 07:06 PM
...-1...

Runner
01-01-2009, 07:19 PM
I guess with Brown we'll just lean on stats don't count and we can tell by watching he's a future star. Personally I'm worried about LT in the near term.

ObsiWan
01-01-2009, 07:23 PM
I guess with Brown we'll just lean on stats don't count and we can tell by watching he's a future star. Personally I'm worried about LT in the near term.

you sound like you think Brown will regress.... izzat whut yer sayin'?

nunusguy
01-01-2009, 07:23 PM
donno why you compare him to Winston.
I think the two are comparable in physical & athletic terms however not in football mentality.

Vinny
01-01-2009, 07:30 PM
I think the two are comparable in physical & athletic terms however not in football mentality.

Winston is much more of an athlete than Wand...it's pretty obvious. Wand plays really stiff and a big reason he is a journeyman.

Runner
01-01-2009, 07:32 PM
you sound like you think Brown will regress.... izzat whut yer sayin'?


I'm not sure he'll get much better and he's below average now. He doesn't have to regress to be disappointment, in my opinion. I thought the two out of three series rotation was a big negative against him all year.

Texans_Chick
01-01-2009, 07:35 PM
I'm not sure he'll get much better and he's below average now. He doesn't have to regress to be disappointment, in my opinion. I thought the two out of three series rotation was a big negative against him all year.

I very much hope that Alex Gibbs stays on for at least another year.

Not just for the development of a developmental LT but also for whatever additional RBs the team is going to have to bring in. The Texans were very fortunate that Slaton didn't get hurt going down the stretch.

Runner
01-01-2009, 07:43 PM
I very much hope that Alex Gibbs stays on for at least another year.

Not just for the development of a developmental LT but also for whatever additional RBs the team is going to have to bring in. The Texans were very fortunate that Slaton didn't get hurt going down the stretch.


I agee it was a big positive that the injury demon bypassed Slaton as you said. The offense would have gotten ugly quick.

Brown might develop; consistent coaching would help. We'll see.

nunusguy
01-01-2009, 07:45 PM
The Texans were very fortunate that Slaton didn't get hurt going down the stretch.
I'm still amazed by Slaton's durability this year, but yes you're certainly right,
we were also just plain fortunate. But the little back hung in there and took it for the team all season long.

HJam72
01-01-2009, 07:51 PM
I'm still amazed by Slaton's durability this year, but yes you're certainly right,
we were also just plain fortunate. But the little back hung in there and took it for the team all season long.

According the the Dominick Davis/Williams measuring stick, he can do that for two more seasons....and then he's toast.

I say we get a bruiser THIS offseason.

thunderkyss
01-01-2009, 08:17 PM
I'm not sure he'll get much better and he's below average now. He doesn't have to regress to be disappointment, in my opinion. I thought the two out of three series rotation was a big negative against him all year.

I hope Kubiak, Smith, and Gibbs all realize they made a mistake, and have the Cahones to do the right thing..... that is if they made a mistake.

I don't know if either Winston or Brown are going to make it..... Winston is a road grader in the run game, no doubt.

But my point is I hope they've got more than a "feeling" that Winston & Brown will be okay.

ChampionTexan
01-01-2009, 08:32 PM
I hope Kubiak, Smith, and Gibbs all realize they made a mistake, and have the Cahones to do the right thing..... that is if they made a mistake.

I don't know if either Winston or Brown are going to make it..... Winston is a road grader in the run game, no doubt.

But my point is I hope they've got more than a "feeling" that Winston & Brown will be okay.

In regard to Winston, since the Texans gave him a 5-year contract extension that included $10 Million guaranteed at the beginning of this season, I would hope that you are correct.

Goatcheese
01-01-2009, 09:16 PM
Didn't 4.5 of Winston's sacks come in a 3 game stretch at the end of the year? GB, and Ten stand out.

He looked very good most of the time in pass protection, and was a beast in the run game. It's not anything I'm worried about.

As for Brown, I'm not as down on him as I was at mid season. He looks good in the running game, especially downfield. In pass pro Brown has improved throughout the season, and I expect him to play fulltime, with similar, or slightly lower sack totals next year. I'm sticking with my initial impression that he can develope to the same level as Lepsis. He's never going to be elite, and nobody should have expected him to be.

YoungTexanFan
01-02-2009, 03:35 AM
I still stand by the initial thoughts on draft day. He wasn't a first round talent. I don't have much hope for him developing. He has never been good at any level he's played at (college at NFL, I don't know about HS). He was abused his last year at VT. He was abused this year. He can hold his own in a scheme designed to hide a lot of flaws in the run game. He has been able to run-block ok. However, I have very little hope he will ever be an above average NFL LT because of his inability to pass protect, at any level. I still think it was a complete reach and a stupid pick. I think he is best suited for OG in the NFL. I know that he will get 3-4 years, but I expect him to be on a lot of fans' nerves by the end of next year. I just don't see the improvement, not the actual talent. I'm still very unsure about him being an NFL LT, but I can't do anything myself, so I'll go with the team.

Runner
01-02-2009, 10:12 AM
I hope Kubiak, Smith, and Gibbs all realize they made a mistake, and have the Cahones to do the right thing..... that is if they made a mistake.

I don't know if either Winston or Brown are going to make it..... Winston is a road grader in the run game, no doubt.

But my point is I hope they've got more than a "feeling" that Winston & Brown will be okay.


I wouldn't worry too much about it. Projecting football talent isn't my line. I'm not much of a soothsayer. Just adding my opinion.

76Texan
01-06-2009, 11:00 AM
Stats can be very misleading sometimes (actually a lot of time.)

It looks to me that Long was the best LT of the class.

If you had watched the final regular season game between the Chargers and the Broncos, you might have noticed that Clady was beaten quite often.
However, Cutler is very mobile. Or he would have room in the pocket to move up, and either scramble out of dodge or get rid of the ball.
The same thing happened in the loss to the Raiders. Clady got beat at least seven times in that game, but no sack on Cutler.

There are several other factors that I think we have to look into to measure the performance of a lineman.

El Tejano
01-06-2009, 11:22 AM
I think Browns sack numbers will fall just because he doesn't have to face Jared Allen, James Harrison, Joey Porter, and Terrell Suggs next year. Browns rookie season featured a metric shitload of elite pass rushers. 2 of those guys are candidates for DPOY and both posted sack numbers in the high teens.

I'm not saying Brown is the second coming of Orlando Pace, because he obviously has a ton of work to do on his technique (Same to you Winston!). But I think we're going to see a significant drop in the number of sacks both of our tackles give up next year.


He's going to face Porter next year.

El Tejano
01-06-2009, 11:28 AM
There is no way in hell Brisiel only had 3 false starts. Screw the statbooks.

We all fail to realize that prior to, I believe, the Vikings or Ravens (I think Ravens because there were some BS calls there) game we were one of the lowest penalized teams in the league averaging one penalty a game and it usually came at the hands of a defensive penalty.

We then got back on track but blew it in the Raiders game.

El Tejano
01-06-2009, 11:36 AM
Wasn't most of Brown's sacks at the beginning of the season against Pittsburgh and the titans? I would be interested to see how he did after 8 games.

TimeKiller
01-06-2009, 11:46 AM
I still stand by the initial thoughts on draft day. He wasn't a first round talent. I don't have much hope for him developing. He has never been good at any level he's played at (college at NFL, I don't know about HS). He was abused his last year at VT. He was abused this year. He can hold his own in a scheme designed to hide a lot of flaws in the run game. He has been able to run-block ok. However, I have very little hope he will ever be an above average NFL LT because of his inability to pass protect, at any level. I still think it was a complete reach and a stupid pick. I think he is best suited for OG in the NFL. I know that he will get 3-4 years, but I expect him to be on a lot of fans' nerves by the end of next year. I just don't see the improvement, not the actual talent. I'm still very unsure about him being an NFL LT, but I can't do anything myself, so I'll go with the team.
So you wanted Salaam to drag himself out and probably fare equally?

Or we got Gibbs' pick on the cheap end of the 1st round, got the 3rd pick out of it for Slaton?

He wasn't great. I guess that's reason enough for such a pessimistic, downer post but I find that rationale as a slippery slope.

Why won't he develop? He got better as the year went on and he's under the wing of a HOF line coach. Plus he's a rookie, he's got his whole career left to develop it's not like he's 35. Salaam isn't going to develop anything new, Brown will. If he doesn't, then posts like this have a little merit but you're bringing the hammer down on a rookie, on a mid-level team, who faced top ranked defenses and pass rushers week after week. Unwarranted IMO.

76Texan
01-06-2009, 12:20 PM
Wasn't most of Brown's sacks at the beginning of the season against Pittsburgh and the titans? I would be interested to see how he did after 8 games.

Steelers game: 2 sacks in the 4th qtr, Texans down 3-35.
They know we have to throw the ball.

First sack:
We have two double teams up the middle, moving their O-line to the left.
Steelers had two guys came off both edges.
Schaub should have step up. He had a clear running lane there.

Second sack and a fumble by Schaub.
Again, Brown got beat in just less than 2 secs.
Their SAM also came up on the other side, letting Leach release out of the backfield.
Schaub could have (quite probably) gotten the ball to Leach.
Instead, Schaub was looking to go long downfield on the other side.
(Schaub did double pump.)
IMO, it was not a good decision.
If he didn't get sacked by the guy on the left, the SAM would have nailed him anyway (and hard).

Whether these two sacks should be put on Brown is debatable.

mussop
01-06-2009, 07:11 PM
Got this from another MB (http://walterfootball.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7358&page=4) so dont know how reliable they are but


It's a little bit premature since we still have to calculate the sacks that were given up today. But here we go anyways.

1. Ryan Clady, Denver, 0.5 sack
2. Michael Roos, Tennessee, 1 sack PRO BOWLER
3-T. Tony Ugoh, Indianapolis, 2 sacks* (Started 11)
3-T. Tra Thomas, Philadelphia, 2 sacks
3-T. Jared Gaither, Baltimore, 2 sacks* (He missed first quarter of Philadelphia game because of a shoulder injury)
7. Jake Long, Miami, 2.5 sacks
8-T. Marcus McNeill, San Diego, 3 sacks* (13 games)
8-T. Chris Samuels, Washington, 3 sacks* (Only appeared in 12 games)
8-T. Jordan Gross, Carolina, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game) PRO BOWLER
8-T. Jammal Brown, New Orleans, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game)
8-T. Todd Weiner, Atlanta, 3 sacks* (Started 10 games and appeared in 15)
13-T. Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 3.5 sacks PRO BOWLER
13-T. Walter Jones, Seattle, 3.5 sacks* (12 games) PRO BOWLER
15-T. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, NY Jets, 4 sacks
15-T. Bryant McKinnie, Minnesota, 4 sacks* (11 games)
15-T. Max Starks, Pittsburgh, 4 sacks* (10 starts)
18. Brandon Albert, Kansas City, 4.5 sacks* (Missed 1 game)
19. Levi Jones, Cincinnati, 5.5 sacks* (10 games)
20. Mike Gandy, Arizona, 6.25 sacks
21-T. Chad Clifton, Green Bay, 6.5 sacks* (missed 1 game)
21-T. David Diehl, NY Giants, 6.5 sacks
23. Flozell Adams, Dallas, 7.25 PRO BOWLER
24-T. Khalif Barnes, Jacksonville, 7.5 sacks
24-T. Matt Light, New England, 7.5 sacks
24-T. Kwame Harris, 7.5 sacks* (Started 11, appeared in 13)
27. Donald Penn, Tampa Bay, 8 sacks
28. Joe Staley, San Francisco, 8.5 sacks
29. Jeff Backus, Detroit, 9.25 sacks
30. John St. Clair, Chicago, 9.75 sacks
T-31. Duane Brown, Houston, 11.5 sacks
T-31. Jason Peters, Buffalo, 11.5 sacks* PRO BOWLER (13 games)