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Silver Oak
12-29-2008, 10:04 AM
found this mention of the Texans in a PFT story about the Mangini firing. first I've read about the entire D staff being purged, but then again PFT is mostly a lot of hot air.

"Possibly, Mangini could land somewhere as a defensive coordinator. In Houston, for example, coach Gary Kubiak reportedly will be dumping his entire defensive coaching staff. If Mangini is regarded as a guy who never would be trusted with the title of head coach by any other NFL team, then Kubiak wouldn’t have to worry about Mangini having designs on obtaining an in-house promotion in Houston if/when Kubiak is fired."


http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/12/29/what-next-for-mangini/

TigerV1
12-29-2008, 10:29 AM
I wouldn't mind this at all. I am interested in the fact that the rumor says the entire defensive staff may be fired.

Maddict5
12-29-2008, 10:33 AM
mangini's a 3-4 guy so i dont see how it'll happen

Ole Miss Texan
12-29-2008, 10:35 AM
I don't see a reason why the entire defensive staff should be fired.

Mr. White
12-29-2008, 10:39 AM
I don't see a reason why the entire defensive staff should be fired.

I've got a pretty good one.

Because any DC worth his salt would want to bring in his own guys.

The1ApplePie
12-29-2008, 10:41 AM
mangini's a 3-4 guy so i dont see how it'll happen

Good defensive minds can work either set

FirstTexansFan
12-29-2008, 10:41 AM
They won't fire the entire staff. It'll be a promotion from within. I'm with the majority on this one, it'll be Frank Bush.

bigbrewster2000
12-29-2008, 10:41 AM
mangini's a 3-4 guy so i dont see how it'll happen

edited

Pantherstang84
12-29-2008, 10:43 AM
I've got a pretty good one.

Because any DC worth his salt would want to bring in his own guys.

Wasn't Mangini a DC under Belicheat? If so, I wouldn't mind giving him a shot at the DC position.

thunderkyss
12-29-2008, 11:01 AM
They won't fire the entire staff. It'll be a promotion from within. I'm with the majority on this one, it'll be Frank Bush.

God, I hope not. If we've got people on this team, worthy of being promoted to defensive co-ordinator, I would hope they would have influenced our defense in some form or fashion. If that person is on this team, and what we've seen is the most of that influence.... we need to go outside.

I also don't see bringing in an Eric Mangini, or a Wade Phillips, without switching to a 3-4. Why bring in a specialist, and limit his tool-box??

I want someone from the Jim Johnson school of defense. Hell, I want Jim Johnson... I know it won't happen, but that's what I want.

Forgive the blasphemy, but someone working for Jeff Fischer should also be considered.

Specnatz
12-29-2008, 11:18 AM
I don't see a reason why the entire defensive staff should be fired.

please tell us of a position on the defense that did its job and performed well?

FILO_girl
12-29-2008, 12:28 PM
Offseason- Day 1:





Its gonna be a looooooooong offseason. :gun:

TEXANRED
12-29-2008, 12:36 PM
They won't fire the entire staff. It'll be a promotion from within. I'm with the majority on this one, it'll be Frank Bush.
I keep seeing people post this but why? What has Frank Bush done that is so great? He yells a lot. Big deal. I yell a lot to but I dont see the Texans wanting to hire me.

Ole Miss Texan
12-29-2008, 12:40 PM
I've got a pretty good one.

Because any DC worth his salt would want to bring in his own guys.

I understand a new DC wanting to be with familiar folks but I think we've got too many good positional coaches for that to happen.

Ole Miss Texan
12-29-2008, 12:42 PM
I keep seeing people post this but why? What has Frank Bush done that is so great? He yells a lot. Big deal. I yell a lot to but I dont see the Texans wanting to hire me.

I'm a pretty quiet guy but that doesn't mean I can play wide out like AJ. :)

I think it goes back to when Kubiak was first hired. He wanted Bush to come on board (I think as DC) but Arizona wouldn't let him go. The next year Kubiak finally got him but Smith was already hired. So the natural progression kind of makes sense unless since Bush has been here, Kubiak has seen something that doesn't make him think Bush could make it as a DC.

Texans_Chick
12-29-2008, 12:51 PM
They won't fire the entire staff. It'll be a promotion from within. I'm with the majority on this one, it'll be Frank Bush.

The PFT rumor about the Texans defensive staff comes from the Jay Glazer national report (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2008/12/the_good_bad_and_ugly_in_the_t.html).

"there is going to be a big change on defense."

Which was re-reported by the Chron (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6184863.html) when they asked Kubiak about the report.

Mr. White
12-29-2008, 01:04 PM
I understand a new DC wanting to be with familiar folks but I think we've got too many good positional coaches for that to happen.

You may be right, but I really don't see any evidence of that being the case. I hear that "this guy's good" and "that guy's good" but there's really no way to know for sure.

Any good NFL DC is afforded the latitude to bring in his own guys. If Kubiak doesn't want to give that kind of latitude, then he'll end up with another yes man like Richard Smith.......and the same kind of results.

Texans_Chick
12-29-2008, 01:04 PM
Lots of experienced guys out there.

One that might be an interesting fit would be Gregg Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_Williams).

He was DC for the Jaguars under a one year contact. He is close to Jeff Fisher and would be a great candidate over there if Titans DC Jim Schwartz ends up being a head coach.

Timing wise, it may not work out so good for Williams-Titans as the Titans are going to be tied up with playoff stuff for the next couple of weeks at least.

Here's his bio (http://www.jaguars.com/team/Coach.aspx?id=2778).

Is familiar with Houston area as he lived here a number of years.

TexansFanatic
12-29-2008, 01:09 PM
Gregg Williams could be the guy. The Jags run a 4-3, right?

Norg
12-29-2008, 01:10 PM
why would we get a guy that does not fit into our culture or system

Errant Hothy
12-29-2008, 01:16 PM
why would we get a guy that does not fit into our culture or system

I agree with you about getting guys who fit the system we have talent for, but I definatly do not want somebody who is going to fit in with the culture of the D. In fact I want a complete cultural change on the D, at the very least.

I'd be happy with Williams, but I'm kind of suprised about the rumors of the whole D staff being cleaned out. Especially giventhe fact that Kubes was unwilling to hire Bates because he wanted to clear the whole D staff.

Second Honeymoon
12-29-2008, 01:17 PM
I understand a new DC wanting to be with familiar folks but I think we've got too many good positional coaches for that to happen.

like who? rhodes is the only guy with any strong track record of success pre-Texans

just because they coach/play for the Texans, doesn't make them good or even good enough....because they have proven that it isn't good enough.

This PFT rumor makes me real happy though that Kubiak looks to be changing the defense. All he needs to do is ask Shanny how important a defense is. Shanny proved once again, that you can't win without one yesterday in San Diego.

DiehardChris
12-29-2008, 01:19 PM
Gregg Williams could be the guy. The Jags run a 4-3, right?

Yes, Williams runs a 4-3. As of right now, he's the guy I want... but I kind of want to refrain from getting excited about it until the Texans drop the hammer on Smith... which I'm not convinced they will. I mean - I THINK they will, but I'm not counting on it.

Greg Williams is the guy... at least of all the names I've seen mentioned so far. He runs a solid, aggressive defense... and we'll have more talent from the draft and FA in training camp.

Truthfully - I wish we could clone Jack Del Rio and have him as our DC, but that's silliness, I know.

nero THE zero
12-29-2008, 01:24 PM
I understand that popular sentiment is that under the rare possibility that we do make a change, and that change is with a guy outside of our organization, it will be with a 4-3 guy and not a 3-4 guy. What I would like to know is why that is the case.

Our personnel isn't really more fit for a 4-3. I mean we lack depth at LB, so that would have to be addressed, but it's not like the guys we have are an ill-fit for the 3-4. And if we brought in Mangini, a Belichick disciple, we would be running a 3-4 hybrid in which we run some 4-3 stuff as well - so it wouldn't even be a true 3-4.

I say if we're going to bring in someone, we bring in the best candidate for the position, regardless of scheme.

Second Honeymoon
12-29-2008, 01:27 PM
why would we get a guy that does not fit into our culture or system

what culture? the culture of losing? what system? the lame 2nd rate passive zone coverage system that Smith has been rolling out the last 3 seasons?

frankly, i would prefer someone who doesn't fit in with our current culture and system. there needs to be a shake up on the defense to enable this team to take the next step. The personnel is there and has been there. please let this rumor be true.

Pantherstang84
12-29-2008, 01:30 PM
what culture? the culture of losing? what system? the lame 2nd rate passive zone coverage system that Smith has been rolling out the last 3 seasons?

frankly, i would prefer someone who doesn't fit in with our current culture and system. there needs to be a shake up on the defense to enable this team to take the next step. The personnel is there and has been there. please let this rumor be true.

I'm onboard this train!!!

TexansSeminole
12-29-2008, 01:34 PM
We need to look at Bud Foster from VTech before he goes somewhere else.

TEXANRED
12-29-2008, 01:37 PM
I agree about Greg Williams. He is just a name. What has he done? I think he had one good year in Buffalo and was average in Washington and terrible in Jax.

I want us to take a look at Jim Johnson's assistant. I can't remember his name but we talked about him during the season. We need a guy who can come in and knows how to set up a blitz package.

Texans_Chick
12-29-2008, 01:45 PM
I agree with you about getting guys who fit the system we have talent for, but I definatly do not want somebody who is going to fit in with the culture of the D. In fact I want a complete cultural change on the D, at the very least.

I'd be happy with Williams, but I'm kind of suprised about the rumors of the whole D staff being cleaned out. Especially giventhe fact that Kubes was unwilling to hire Bates because he wanted to clear the whole D staff.

I don't think that was the whole story on Bates. I heard that he was full of himself and thought that monetarily he was worth a ton. (I'm not suggesting that McNair is cheap, but Bates isn't the guy to open the vault for).

Bates ended up going to Denver and lasting for one season before he got fired.

I think the rumors about who is getting clean out is too vague for right now. That substantial change is being contemplated is A Good Thing, given the speculation that the "improvement" of the defense saved Smith's job.

IlliniJen
12-29-2008, 01:48 PM
what culture? the culture of losing? what system? the lame 2nd rate passive zone coverage system that Smith has been rolling out the last 3 seasons?

frankly, i would prefer someone who doesn't fit in with our current culture and system. there needs to be a shake up on the defense to enable this team to take the next step. The personnel is there and has been there. please let this rumor be true.

You and Hoth-Boy said it best: we need someone who will shake things up on defense and not just be another "fit" in the Texans organization because they're a niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice guy.

Gregg Williams is intriguing, but the Jags defense hasn't exactly been great this year, so I think he'd be a bit of a coin flip.

Romeo Crennel is available and while he didn't light it up as a head coach, the Browns did offer to keep him on as DC, which I don't think he'll do since it's a demotion and how can you respect yourself in the morning? I don't know if he's a 4-3 guy or not.

I would love to see someone come in who isn't afraid to experiment and move some people around. I would also love a DC who isn't afraid to blitz.

I think we're in a unique situation where some of our young guys are entering into their make-or-be-labeled-a-bust year and if things go the right way, we could see some players emerging, but I think a DC needs to move personnel around if he thinks they'd be better utilized in a different position, regardless of what they were drafted for. We'll also hopefully look to get some needed positions this draft, like DE, CB and DT. An incoming DC has the ability to somewhat press the reset button through the draft and clear out some of the busts and dead weight. I think it's a promising and attractive coaching job, considering what we have to work with and what could be coming in via draft or FA.

DiehardChris
12-29-2008, 01:48 PM
I agree about Greg Williams. He is just a name. What has he done? I think he had one good year in Buffalo and was average in Washington and terrible in Jax.

I want us to take a look at Jim Johnson's assistant. I can't remember his name but we talked about him during the season. We need a guy who can come in and knows how to set up a blitz package.

From his Wiki:

From 1997-2000, Williams was promoted to Defensive Coordinator of the now Tennessee Titans after the Oilers moved out of Houston. As the Defensive Coordinator, the Titans led the league in total defense and only gave up 191 points, the third fewest in the NFL since the league adopted the 16-game schedule in 1978. The defense also helped lead the Titans to Super Bowl XXXIV where they lost to the St. Louis Rams.

I'm not saying he's THE guy - I just think he's the best of the names I've heard so far. We need a guy with a track record... I don't think this organization can take a chance on an unproven DC, or a college guy who may or may not be the next big thing as an NFL coordinator.

Crennel is a 3-4 guy, for whoever asked.

Texans_Chick
12-29-2008, 01:54 PM
why would we get a guy that does not fit into our culture or system

Who are you referring to?

Williams is a 4-3 guy.

A lot of Redskin fans wish he would have stayed with their team.

He's in the category of one of those coaches that you wouldn't want as a head coach but is a good coordinator.

He might like to come to a place where he doesn't have a defensive minded head coach telling him how it is going to be.

Texans_Chick
12-29-2008, 01:59 PM
Gregg Williams is intriguing, but the Jags defense hasn't exactly been great this year, so I think he'd be a bit of a coin flip.



I think Williams was in a weird spot with the Jags. One year contract so people pretty much saw him as a short timer. The line he had to work with was old, and they had a rookie hold out.

He got screwed over a little in the weird Zorn hiring, so by the time he was looking for jobs, timing wasn't good.

The offense for Jags was a mess with their offensive linemen out, so it was all on the defense to carry the team and they weren't up for it.

I can't say that he is The Guy, but what I do know is that Redskin fans are fussy and many of them wish he stayed there.

Second Honeymoon
12-29-2008, 02:00 PM
Williams looks to be the right candidate because he already has a head start as he is freshly familiar with our division foes. That along with his track record (which is at least above average by almost any standard) makes him an appealing candidate and someone who could step in immediately and hit the ground running. We can't wait around for some young hotshot assistant to come around. The defense needs someone they can respect and that has credibility.

Texans_Chick
12-29-2008, 02:01 PM
From his Wiki:


I'm not saying he's THE guy - I just think he's the best of the names I've heard so far. We need a guy with a track record... I don't think this organization can take a chance on an unproven DC, or a college guy who may or may not be the next big thing as an NFL coordinator.

Crennel is a 3-4 guy, for whoever asked.

That's where I am at right now.

I just want a name that gives me some sort of hope for something way less sucky.

Texans_Chick
12-29-2008, 02:04 PM
Williams looks to be the right candidate because he already has a head start as he is freshly familiar with our division foes. That along with his track record (which is at least above average by almost any standard) makes him an appealing candidate and someone who could step in immediately and hit the ground running. We can't wait around for some young hotshot assistant to come around. The defense needs someone they can respect and that has credibility.

Well then, if SH and I find ourselves in agreement about something, then gee, maybe it should happen.:fans:

Which means it won't.

There may be any number of very good candidates out there in addition--I just have a bias against promoting someone on this staff. I want McNair to open the vault for someone worth opening the vault to.

Hervoyel
12-29-2008, 02:09 PM
I don't think that was the whole story on Bates. I heard that he was full of himself and thought that monetarily he was worth a ton. (I'm not suggesting that McNair is cheap, but Bates isn't the guy to open the vault for).

Bates ended up going to Denver and lasting for one season before he got fired.

I think the rumors about who is getting clean out is too vague for right now. That substantial change is being contemplated is A Good Thing, given the speculation that the "improvement" of the defense saved Smith's job.

Scary stuff. We "leaped" up from 24th to....wait for it...... 22nd.

Wow. Impressive. At this pace we might as well be standing still. By the time he finishes filling all the "holes" in our talent Mario will be retired.

YoungTexanFan
12-29-2008, 02:10 PM
I understand a new DC wanting to be with familiar folks but I think we've got too many good positional coaches for that to happen.

We don't really have a lot of good positional coaches actually. That is the reason we struggle with player development. Hoke needs to go. No exceptions. Franklin can go for all I care. It was hard to go wrong with Mario, but Okoye and Okam haven't developed much to this point. He couldn't do it with TJ either. I would not be upset if every single member of our defensive staff was released.

IlliniJen
12-29-2008, 02:12 PM
Well then, if SH and I find ourselves in agreement about something, then gee, maybe it should happen.:fans:

Which means it won't.

There may be any number of very good candidates out there in addition--I just have a bias against promoting someone on this staff. I want McNair to open the vault for someone worth opening the vault to.

I think promoting would be a huge mistake. "Congrats! You're the best of the worst!" I'm not saying we don't have someone who could be quite capable, I just want a clean break and a fresh start. I keep harping on attitude and I want someone who will bring in a fresh attitude, not just someone who could likely continue that same ol' Texans attitude of middle-of-the-road nougatness.

painekiller
12-29-2008, 02:30 PM
Lots of experienced guys out there.

One that might be an interesting fit would be Gregg Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_Williams).

He was DC for the Jaguars under a one year contact. He is close to Jeff Fisher and would be a great candidate over there if Titans DC Jim Schwartz ends up being a head coach.

Timing wise, it may not work out so good for Williams-Titans as the Titans are going to be tied up with playoff stuff for the next couple of weeks at least.

Here's his bio (http://www.jaguars.com/team/Coach.aspx?id=2778).

Is familiar with Houston area as he lived here a number of years.

I've said this in another thread a few weeks ago, but it's worth repeating, I think Gregg Williams is over rated as a DC. Jacksonvilles defense dropped big time this year, and the Redskins defense the last few years has not impressed me.

BTW Williams comes from the coaching tree I love. Pardee, and Fisher. He comes from the old 46 with Fisher. I loved that defense.

I would be willing to give his protege Jerry Gray a shot.

Edit

OK I agree Williams might be the best of the names out there. And now we all know this will not happen.

YoungTexanFan
12-29-2008, 02:30 PM
I understand that popular sentiment is that under the rare possibility that we do make a change, and that change is with a guy outside of our organization, it will be with a 4-3 guy and not a 3-4 guy. What I would like to know is why that is the case.

Our personnel isn't really more fit for a 4-3. I mean we lack depth at LB, so that would have to be addressed, but it's not like the guys we have are an ill-fit for the 3-4. And if we brought in Mangini, a Belichick disciple, we would be running a 3-4 hybrid in which we run some 4-3 stuff as well - so it wouldn't even be a true 3-4.

I say if we're going to bring in someone, we bring in the best candidate for the position, regardless of scheme.

Our personnel really isn't fit for a 3-4 at all. Start with Mario. You are wasting everything he has been and should be in the coming years if you put him on a 3-4 DL. He's got the size, yes, but that isn't his game and you would have just wasted a first round pick out of blatant stupidity. Then, look at our other DL, specifically TJ and Okoye, our other 2 first rounders. TJ could MAYBE pass as a 3-4 DE. He is supposed to be a gap UT type who can split the gaps and penetrate. Granted, he has been well short of that, but his skill set does not lead to much hope for him being to hold the edge against 2 men. Next is Okoye who has actully shown flashes of what he was drafted to do, and still struggles at what you would be asking him to do as a 3-4 DE. That isn't his game. You would have just wasted yet another #1 pick out of stupidity. Could you stick TJ and Okoye on the ends? Yes. Would you be bitching after the 3rd game? Yes. Would it be obvious why? Yes. Granted, Okam would be an ideal NT/NG for the 3-4, ala Seth Payne, but what has he proven at this level?

Then, as you mentioned we are short on LBs as it is with a 4-3. Also, Ryans is our best blitzer, and would be best on the outside in a 3-4. Ryans simply is too small to be an ILB in the 3-4. He's borderline as it is in the 4-3, but he just makes it happen. The ILBs in a 3-4 just eat tackles, and his body isn't big enough to do that. Also, you would be taking away Ryan's ability to get to the sidelines on most downs if you put him on the outside. Greenwood and Adibi fall into the same catagoy with size/speed issues for the inside, so they are forced to the outside. Now, with our current players at DE wasting their talents, we are relying on Greenwood/Adibi to be a blitzing LB. Diles would likely shift to ILB.

Then, we have the issue with our safties. We don't have a safety that can come up from his position and get to the QB. We didn't before, and it was a problem. McCree was the closest we ever had. If we send a SS blitz, we don't have a guy that can come from the LB spot or behind and get to the QB before an NFL QB can hit a hot route vacated by our SS. It's like asking Reggie Wayne to run a 3 yard slant and take it 45 yards.

So, no. We really aren't that close to being able to run a 3-4 defense. Without completely screwing over our cap, we would have to retain our guys. Our defense would likely look like this:

DE: Weaver/Okoye
DT: Okam
DE: Travis Johnson/Okoye
OLB: Ryans
ILB: Diles
ILB: Not on team
OLB: Mario
CB: Bennett
SS: C.C. Brown
FS: Wilson/Demps
CB: Daunta

Wow. That defense would get torn apart. And no, we can't just make some changes. You can't get rid of 7 defensive starters because they don't fit your system. Switching to a 3-4 would set us back a few more years, cause us to go through cap hell, and put even more underperforming players on the field.

Yep. That's smart.

Nawzer
12-29-2008, 02:32 PM
It'll be someone from Denver.

Second Honeymoon
12-29-2008, 02:34 PM
Scary stuff. We "leaped" up from 24th to....wait for it...... 22nd.

Wow. Impressive. At this pace we might as well be standing still. By the time he finishes filling all the "holes" in our talent Mario will be retired.

From 24th to 22nd? omfg, why not just give the guy a lifetime contract? or maybe just build a statue of the guy or why not just go all out and just rename the stadium to something like Richard Smith Memorial Stadium. We could nickname it 'The Dick'.

leebigeztx
12-29-2008, 02:36 PM
I think Marinelli is the guy when I look at the personell of this defense, but he might go back to Tampa. I see 1 gap guys in tj and okoye. I see a young fast guy in adibi on the weakside who can run and hit and I see a smart guy like wilson. I think he could step in and have the guys playing fast and roll with it. If Marrio and okoye were 1 gaping, this line would be better. Plus with that 2-deep zone and the players coming in, I like the system of plag and play type players. Bennett and Daunte are good tacklers on the edge. Molden could be moved to the safety to play with Wilson to give the team some range on the back end. They should jump on Rod now and not wait.

Malloy
12-29-2008, 02:40 PM
.....why not just go all out and just rename the stadium to something like Richard Smith Memorial Stadium.....

If that meant he was but a memory I would definately do it!

mexican_texan
12-29-2008, 02:41 PM
I'm wary of Crennell and Mangini. Both came as defensive coordinators under...drumroll....the best defensive mind in football. Anyone ever consider it's Belichick running that defense?

nero THE zero
12-29-2008, 02:45 PM
Our personnel really isn't fit for a 3-4 at all. Start with Mario. You are wasting everything he has been and should be in the coming years if you put him on a 3-4 DL. He's got the size, yes, but that isn't his game and you would have just wasted a first round pick out of blatant stupidity. Then, look at our other DL, specifically TJ and Okoye, our other 2 first rounders. TJ could MAYBE pass as a 3-4 DE. He is supposed to be a gap UT type who can split the gaps and penetrate. Granted, he has been well short of that, but his skill set does not lead to much hope for him being to hold the edge against 2 men. Next is Okoye who has actully shown flashes of what he was drafted to do, and still struggles at what you would be asking him to do as a 3-4 DE. That isn't his game. You would have just wasted yet another #1 pick out of stupidity. Could you stick TJ and Okoye on the ends? Yes. Would you be bitching after the 3rd game? Yes. Would it be obvious why? Yes. Granted, Okam would be an ideal NT/NG for the 3-4, ala Seth Payne, but what has he proven at this level?

Then, as you mentioned we are short on LBs as it is with a 4-3. Also, Ryans is our best blitzer, and would be best on the outside in a 3-4. Ryans simply is too small to be an ILB in the 3-4. He's borderline as it is in the 4-3, but he just makes it happen. The ILBs in a 3-4 just eat tackles, and his body isn't big enough to do that. Also, you would be taking away Ryan's ability to get to the sidelines on most downs if you put him on the outside. Greenwood and Adibi fall into the same catagoy with size/speed issues for the inside, so they are forced to the outside. Now, with our current players at DE wasting their talents, we are relying on Greenwood/Adibi to be a blitzing LB. Diles would likely shift to ILB.

Then, we have the issue with our safties. We don't have a safety that can come up from his position and get to the QB. We didn't before, and it was a problem. McCree was the closest we ever had. If we send a SS blitz, we don't have a guy that can come from the LB spot or behind and get to the QB before an NFL QB can hit a hot route vacated by our SS. It's like asking Reggie Wayne to run a 3 yard slant and take it 45 yards.

So, no. We really aren't that close to being able to run a 3-4 defense. Without completely screwing over our cap, we would have to retain our guys. Our defense would likely look like this:

DE: Weaver/Okoye
DT: Okam
DE: Travis Johnson/Okoye
OLB: Ryans
ILB: Diles
ILB: Not on team
OLB: Mario
CB: Bennett
SS: C.C. Brown
FS: Wilson/Demps
CB: Daunta

Wow. That defense would get torn apart. And no, we can't just make some changes. You can't get rid of 7 defensive starters because they don't fit your system. Switching to a 3-4 would set us back a few more years, cause us to go through cap hell, and put even more underperforming players on the field.

Yep. That's smart.

I think we do have the personnel for it.

Mario is ideal as 3-4 DE. Deljuan, Weaver, and Cochran are as well. I have questions about Okoye as a fit, but LZ said he thinks Okoye is a good fit for the 3-4, so hopefully we can get him to chime in and give his take. He's too small for NT and plays the run poorly, but he can tie up blockers at DE; so I'm not sure how he fits.

Our defense needs formidable changes regardless of what happens with the coaches and the scheme. But, I think we have an adequate base to make the switch with if the best coach available runs the 3-4

You have your ends with Weaver and Williams. Cochran, Robinson, and I guess Okoye are all back-ups. You'd need to add a NT and hope Okam can turn it around. Ron Brace would be a good add in the mid rounds of the draft.

At LB you have Diles and Ryans; I'm not sure how Adibi fits in; and you have decent depth with Thompson as a back-up OLB and Bentley as a back-up ILB. And the draft is chock full of 3-4 OLB - you could grab Stintim, Brown or Curry in the first.

As it stands now, we need a DT, DE, and LB. So, really, I don't think you're looking at more turnover in a 3-4 than you would be if we stand pat. So, hopefully we choose a DC based on coaching ability than on what scheme he runs.

ObsiWan
12-29-2008, 02:47 PM
Yes, Williams runs a 4-3. As of right now, he's the guy I want... but I kind of want to refrain from getting excited about it until the Texans drop the hammer on Smith... which I'm not convinced they will. I mean - I THINK they will, but I'm not counting on it.

Greg Williams is the guy... at least of all the names I've seen mentioned so far. He runs a solid, aggressive defense... and we'll have more talent from the draft and FA in training camp.

Truthfully - I wish we could clone Jack Del Rio and have him as our DC, but that's silliness, I know.

Not so much.
I was personally hoping for Mike Singletary myself.

noxiousdog
12-29-2008, 02:48 PM
I'm wary of Crennell and Mangini. Both came as defensive coordinators under...drumroll....the best defensive mind in football. Anyone ever consider it's Belichick running that defense?

You could say that about alot of Parcells's proteges. It's a concern of course, but you hope they learned something from the teacher.

Mangini strikes me as the safer of the two, but both are Billick-like in their lack of success in their so-called specialty with their new teams.

Second Honeymoon
12-29-2008, 02:53 PM
You could say that about alot of Parcells's proteges. It's a concern of course, but you hope they learned something from the teacher.

Mangini strikes me as the safer of the two, but both are Billick-like in their lack of success in their so-called specialty with their new teams.

I'd take Cronnell over Mangini because he has more experience and Mangenius comes across as a jerk

ObsiWan
12-29-2008, 02:54 PM
It'll be someone from Denver.

NOT funny.

painekiller
12-29-2008, 02:57 PM
I think we do have the personnel for it.

Mario is ideal as 3-4 DE. .

IMO Mario is better suited to be the OLB in the 3-4, you waste his game as 3-4 DE. That position is designed to take up blockers so the LBs can make plays, not to be the #1 pick of the draft.

Think of the 3-4 DE as a quick 4-3 DT. Think Gary Walker. Mario and Gary Walker do not resemble each other.

Kaiser Toro
12-29-2008, 03:02 PM
I would be more interested in this Denver guy, for the Texans FO as a replacement for Grier, if we look to Denver at all.

Chris Trulove (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=357&contentID=649)

Chris Trulove
Coordinator of Pro Scouting

Chris Trulove begins his 15th year with the Denver Broncos’ organization in 2008 and his 14th season in the player personnel department. After five years as the team’s pro personnel assistant, he began his role as the pro scout in 2000 and was named coordinator of pro scouting before the start of the 2006 season.

Trulove, 37, has seen his responsibilities increase each season and initially was under the tutelage of former Pro Scouting Director Jack Elway.

He is now responsible for joining General Manager Ted Sundquist and Director of Player Personnel Jim Goodman in the scouting and planning of unrestricted, restricted and street free-agent acquisitions. His duties include the scouting of players for potential trades, released players from around the league and prospects from NFL Europa, the Canadian Football League and the Arena Football League. These efforts include extensive game film review, player research, written evaluations, player tryouts and contract negotiations.

Trulove also assists in office report evaluations for the college draft as needed and participates in draft meetings.

Trulove began his tenure with the Broncos in 1994 as a player personnel and marketing intern, moving full-time into player personnel after the ‘94 season.

A native of Laurinburg, N.C., Trulove was born April 27, 1971, and is a graduate of Scotland County High School. He acquired a bachelor’s degree in business administration from the University of North Carolina in 1993 and a master’s degree in sport management from the University of Georgia in 1994.

Chris and his wife, Shanda, along with their newborn daughter, Ashlyn, reside in Highlands Ranch, Colo.

Ole Miss Texan
12-29-2008, 03:14 PM
like who? rhodes is the only guy with any strong track record of success pre-Texans

just because they coach/play for the Texans, doesn't make them good or even good enough....because they have proven that it isn't good enough.

We don't really have a lot of good positional coaches actually. That is the reason we struggle with player development. Hoke needs to go. No exceptions. Franklin can go for all I care. It was hard to go wrong with Mario, but Okoye and Okam haven't developed much to this point. He couldn't do it with TJ either. I would not be upset if every single member of our defensive staff was released.

There seems to be a lack of transition from taking players' strengths and scheming around them to make the best gameplan. I put that on the DC. I'm not going to sit here and bang one way or another whether an assistant gets canned or promoted, I don't think they are the reason this defense isn't progressing.
Franklin (this was his 2nd season with us)- I don't think he's an absolutely fantastic DL coach but I don't place the blame on player development totally on him. We'll leave Mario out of the scenario because he's just so good. TJ is decent, not a star... not horrible, but would be a very good back up to have. TJ was lazy and out of shape before Franklin got here, he's gotten 'marginally' better if that's saying anything :) Amobi came is as a raw rookie. He's shown flashes of domination as well as mediocreness. Okam? You're going to fault Franklin for not making this 5th rd pick a starter in his rookie season? What about the emergence of Tim Bulman, Deljuan Robinson?? I think he can develop the DL fine but it's not his fault when certain players are used differently. AO as a run stopper? Mario and others dropping into coverage?

Holland- Like Mario... let's leave Demeco out of the situation (stud). We need some help with the LB's but we've seen some great play out of the young guys Adibi and Diles. Should Holland be to blame for Greenwood not becoming stellar? I think it's hard to fault Holland for not developing any LB's fast enough. Hard for me to give him too much credit or too much blame.

Hoke- Now I don't know what to say about Hoke. He's been here since our inception and we've always had a lackluster secondary. I can see how he could be a guy that gets replced first of all assistants. Can Rhodes take over as secondary coach instead of 'assistant'? Reeves has gotten better as the year wore on, Faggins hasn't really developed, Bennett regressed a little, Molden didn't have a chance to get out there much/at all.

Bush- He's a guy Kubiak really wanted to get here and is the next top dog to Smith. Helped out the DL his first year, has experience with the LB's. I don't know what he's done to get fired besides not making the defense super good?

Joe Marciano- while the ST coordinator, he develops a lot of the defensive talent we have. Didn't Bennett play a decent amount of ST before cb? Molden has been doing VERY well. I think part of 3rd rd + raw rookies development comes from playing special teams first and getting some quality game experience. Joe stays.

Richard Smith- :cricket:


Again, if several of these guys go I'm not going to make a big deal about it. From where we sit, it's hard to make an educated arguement on how well or bad most of these guys are coaching and developing the young talent we have. I'm just not a fan of fans' thoughts like 'can't get a pass rush- can frankling' or 'greenwood sucks, holland has to go'. Maybe it is their fault we don't have better depth, who knows.

I've been really impressed with the New York Giants defense the past several seasons. I think our DL can be very similar to theirs and would love to know more about some of their assistants, particularly Mike Waufle (sp?) DL coach. I doubt Spagnualo (sp?) their DC would just come on over.

Goatcheese
12-29-2008, 08:05 PM
I think Marinelli is the guy when I look at the personell of this defense, but he might go back to Tampa. I see 1 gap guys in tj and okoye. I see a young fast guy in adibi on the weakside who can run and hit and I see a smart guy like wilson. I think he could step in and have the guys playing fast and roll with it. If Marrio and okoye were 1 gaping, this line would be better. Plus with that 2-deep zone and the players coming in, I like the system of plag and play type players. Bennett and Daunte are good tacklers on the edge. Molden could be moved to the safety to play with Wilson to give the team some range on the back end. They should jump on Rod now and not wait.

Marinelli is a Tampa 2 guy. Our corners are all man cover guys. Look at Bodden's attempt to move from Man to zone; he's looked terrible.

The Texans will be looking for a coach with 4-3 history, that runs a man cover scheme. That cuts out coaches from cover 2, and 3-4 schemes.

RipTraxx
12-29-2008, 08:09 PM
Sean McDermott from Philly seems a good fit.

He's got a nice resume


SEAN MCDERMOTT
Secondary Coach

One of the brightest, young defensive minds in the league, Sean McDermott enters his 10th season in Philadelphia. McDermott was named secondary coach on January 28, 2008, after a successful one-year stint as linebackers coach last season.

"I don't think there are a lot of secondary coaches that are as good as Sean McDermott," Eagles head coach Andy Reid said. "He was a phenomenal linebackers coach and, really, his versatility I just think is second to none."

The linebacking group flourished under McDermott in 2007 as two youngsters – Omar Gaither (team-leading 170 tackles and 14 hurries) and Chris Gocong (92 tackles, including 7 for a loss) – progressed into full-time starters for the first time in their careers.

From 2004-06, McDermott served as the Eagles secondary/safeties coach. In 2004, he saw both of his starting safeties (Brian Dawkins and Michael Lewis) earn Pro Bowl berths for the first time in team history. Under McDermott's watch, Dawkins went on to earn two more Pro Bowl berths following the 2005 and 2006 seasons. In addition, McDermott has been credited with the development of Eagles S Quintin Mikell.

McDermott worked as the Eagles assistant secondary coach in 2003 and as the club's defensive assistant/quality control coach from 2001-02, working with the linebacker position. In all, McDermott is the longest tenured defensive assistant coach under Jim Johnson.

Under McDermott's watch, one of his players (Dawkins twice, Lewis and Gaither) has been the most productive player on defense in four out of the last five years.

McDermott originally joined the Eagles in 1998 as a scouting administrative coordinator, a position he held until being promoted to assistant to the head coach in 1999.

From 1993-97, McDermott was a safety at the College of William and Mary, earning all-conference honors in 1997, Academic all-conference honors in 1996 and 1997, and NSCA Strength and Conditioning All-America accolades. In 1998, he was the recipient of the prestigious Benjamin Ewell Award for his tremendous leadership and excellence on campus and in the community. In the spring of 1998, McDermott began his coaching career at William and Mary.

A 1993 graduate of LaSalle HS, McDermott was named All-Southeastern Pennsylvania at defensive back in 1992. An all-around athlete, he was also a national prep school wrestling champion in his junior and senior year and lettered twice in track.

In 2005, McDermott was named to the Philadelphia Daily News All-Catholic league team for standout players over the last three decades.

A native of Omaha, Nebraska, McDermott (born 3/21/74) earned a bachelor degree in finance while at William and Mary. He enjoys exercising, playing golf and is an active member of the Church. He and his wife, Jamie, and their newborn daughter, Madeline, reside in Phoenixville, PA.

Sean McDermott's Coaching Timeline

Year

Team

Position

1994-97 William & Mary *Safety
1998 William & Mary Graduate Assistant
2000 Philadelphia Assistant to Head Coach
2001 Philadelphia Defensive Assistant/Quality Control
2002-03 Philadelphia Assistant Defensive Backs
2004-06 Philadelphia Secondary/Safeties
2007 Philadelphia Linebackers
2008- Philadelphia Secondary*player

Lucky
12-29-2008, 09:11 PM
Greg Williams is the guy...


I'm not saying he's THE guy -
http://apublicdefender.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/aflac_1.jpg



Mario is ideal as 3-4 DE.
http://apublicdefender.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/aflac_1.jpg

I think Marinelli is the guy...
http://apublicdefender.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/aflac_1.jpg

The1ApplePie
12-29-2008, 09:20 PM
Mangini would be the best defensive mind in Texans history (even if it isn't saying much)

If D-Ware can be a great 3-4 OLB then so can Mario. The only good 3-4 OLBs that wen't a DE first are LT and Merriman

Please no one from Denver. Their defense is terrible. It basically uses Tampa-2 personel except without the Tampa-2 defense to make them work

Silver Oak
12-29-2008, 09:24 PM
I really don't see any 3-4 coach coming here, as this franchise doesn't need its progress delayed any longer by not haing the right personnel.

Get the guy that best fits what we have instead of retooling around him.

The1ApplePie
12-29-2008, 09:28 PM
I really don't see any 3-4 coach coming here, as this franchise doesn't need its progress delayed any longer by not haing the right personnel.

Get the guy that best fits what we have instead of retooling around him.

Most coaches can do either system unless they are totally retarded, they just have their preferences

Ron Rivera is a good example of a guy that can do both. Wade Phillips may be a awful head guy but is a brilliant D-coordinator that can do both.

Anyone from the tree of Parcells would be great.

HoustonFrog
12-29-2008, 09:28 PM
I think Williams was in a weird spot with the Jags. One year contract so people pretty much saw him as a short timer. The line he had to work with was old, and they had a rookie hold out.

He got screwed over a little in the weird Zorn hiring, so by the time he was looking for jobs, timing wasn't good.

The offense for Jags was a mess with their offensive linemen out, so it was all on the defense to carry the team and they weren't up for it.

I can't say that he is The Guy, but what I do know is that Redskin fans are fussy and many of them wish he stayed there.

Plus the Jags were devestated by injuries. One of my best friends is an asst D-line coach with the Jags..Tom Williams..and he told me right before Christmas that they just got hit at the wrong times on D.

nero THE zero
12-29-2008, 09:45 PM
Mangini would be the best defensive mind in Texans history (even if it isn't saying much)

If D-Ware can be a great 3-4 OLB then so can Mario. The only good 3-4 OLBs that wen't a DE first are LT and Merriman

Please no one from Denver. Their defense is terrible. It basically uses Tampa-2 personel except without the Tampa-2 defense to make them work

Demarcus Ware is 6'4" 260lbs. Mario is 3 inches taller and 30lbs heavier.

PHAROAH
12-29-2008, 10:08 PM
Mangini would be a bad fit IMO we I would love someone from the Eagles Defensive staff they know what they are doing and I would love to have a fire Defense like that one.

DiehardChris
12-29-2008, 10:10 PM
http://apublicdefender.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/aflac_1.jpg



Cute - but you failed to put my comment in context. I said
"Greg Williams is the guy... at least of all the names I've seen mentioned so far."

Lucky
12-29-2008, 10:37 PM
I said
"Greg Williams is the guy... at least of all the names I've seen mentioned so far."
Then more names need to be mentioned, right?

Final Jeopardy
The Category: Bad NFL Defensive Coordinators
The Answer: This AFC South coordinator's defense allowed more passing yards, more TD passes, and a higher QB rating than the Richard Smith coordinated Houston Texan defense...as well as led the league in most 40+ yard completions allowed.

Do do do do do do do
Do do do d...do do do do do
Do do do do do do do
Do da do da do...do...do
Dum dum

The Question: Who is Greg Williams?

Let's see what you wagered: Gary Kubiak's head coaching career.

Where's that duck?

Kaiser Toro
12-29-2008, 10:43 PM
Sir Bedevere: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
Peasant 1: Are there? Oh well, tell us.
Sir Bedevere: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Peasant 1: Burn them.
Sir Bedevere: And what do you burn, apart from witches?
Peasant 1: More witches.
Peasant 2: Wood.
Sir Bedevere: Good. Now, why do witches burn?
Peasant 3: ...because they're made of... wood?
Sir Bedevere: Good. So how do you tell whether she is made of wood?
Peasant 1: Build a bridge out of her.
Sir Bedevere: But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
Peasant 1: Oh yeah.
Sir Bedevere: Does wood sink in water?
Peasant 1: No, no, it floats!... It floats! Throw her into the pond!
Sir Bedevere: No, no. What else floats in water?
Peasant 1: Bread.
Peasant 2: Apples.
Peasant 3: Very small rocks.
Peasant 1: Cider.
Peasant 2: Gravy.
Peasant 3: Cherries.
Peasant 1: Mud.
Peasant 2: Churches.
Peasant 3: Lead! Lead!
King Arthur: A Duck.
Sir Bedevere: ...Exactly. So, logically...
Peasant 1: If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood.
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
Peasant 2: ...A witch!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/quotes

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail028.jpg

The1ApplePie
12-29-2008, 10:48 PM
If the Dallas Cowboys can have a robotic dancing bear from Chuck E Cheese as head coach I assume any animal will do

Though I am alarmed at the rate Walrus coaches are losing their job. Holmgren retires and Romeo gets canned.

YoungTexanFan
12-29-2008, 11:44 PM
Mangini would be the best defensive mind in Texans history (even if it isn't saying much)

If D-Ware can be a great 3-4 OLB then so can Mario. The only good 3-4 OLBs that wen't a DE first are LT and Merriman

Please no one from Denver. Their defense is terrible. It basically uses Tampa-2 personel except without the Tampa-2 defense to make them work

Have you seen Ware play? Comparing his game to Mario's is completely different. Both guys are great players who can get to the QB, but they are nothing alike with their skill sets. Mario is a 285lb traditional DE who uses his best move, the bull rush, to get many of his sacks. Ware uses his open field quickness to get to the QB.

Being a good 4-3 DE does not mean you would be even an adaquate 3-4 OLB. Ware switched because he was undersized. He has great speed and had previously produced a large amount of sacks. We tried the same thing with Babin and saw what a poor coaching staff would develop and produce. It's what you will see this year with someone like Everett Brown.

noxiousdog
12-30-2008, 12:14 AM
Then more names need to be mentioned, right?

Final Jeopardy
The Category: Bad NFL Defensive Coordinators
The Answer: This AFC South coordinator's defense allowed more passing yards, more TD passes, and a higher QB rating than the Richard Smith coordinated Houston Texan defense...as well as led the league in most 40+ yard completions allowed.

...

The Question: Who is Greg Williams?

Let's see what you wagered: Gary Kubiak's head coaching career.

Where's that duck?

One year. Other years he's been in the top 10.

barrett
12-30-2008, 02:48 AM
after reading this thread I like what is being said about Williams. I think the fact that Williams has some roots in Houston is probably one of the biggest factors that would suggest him as a possible candidate. That is assuming that Smith and his staff is fired. I think the family aspect of this organization suggests McNair is always looking for guys that want to be here for many reasons because it motivates them to want to do a good job because they are happy on top of being already driven.

I shudder at the thought of someone's assistant. Much like Texans Chick, I don't want another experiment.

Here's the big one though... I know Williams was under a 1 year contract, a late hire etc but what do you have to suggest that he wants to leave Jax?

painekiller
12-30-2008, 04:05 AM
after reading this thread I like what is being said about Williams. I think the fact that Williams has some roots in Houston is probably one of the biggest factors that would suggest him as a possible candidate. That is assuming that Smith and his staff is fired. I think the family aspect of this organization suggests McNair is always looking for guys that want to be here for many reasons because it motivates them to want to do a good job because they are happy on top of being already driven.

I shudder at the thought of someone's assistant. Much like Texans Chick, I don't want another experiment.

Here's the big one though... I know Williams was under a 1 year contract, a late hire etc but what do you have to suggest that he wants to leave Jax?

Because it was reported a few weeks ago by Mortenson of ESPN that Williams contract would not be renewed, meaning he was out after the season.

painekiller
12-30-2008, 04:13 AM
A big problem with Williams is money, his last paycheck with the Redskins was for $2M per year, which is a little more than Richard Smith is making, might be more than the whole defensive staff combined.

How much will Williams want and how much will we be willing to pay?

DiehardChris
12-30-2008, 11:49 AM
Then more names need to be mentioned, right?

Final Jeopardy
The Category: Bad NFL Defensive Coordinators
The Answer: This AFC South coordinator's defense allowed more passing yards, more TD passes, and a higher QB rating than the Richard Smith coordinated Houston Texan defense...as well as led the league in most 40+ yard completions allowed.

Do do do do do do do
Do do do d...do do do do do
Do do do do do do do
Do da do da do...do...do
Dum dum

The Question: Who is Greg Williams?

Let's see what you wagered: Gary Kubiak's head coaching career.

Where's that duck?

Again, very cute. But look at the guy's resume. He's a proven DC. He was in Jax for one year, and it didn't go well. Who is a better candidate out there who's a proven 4-3 coordinator?

YoungTexanFan
12-30-2008, 11:51 AM
I don't follow the NFL on the East Coast anymore than ESPN feeds me, but what was that talk about the Philly DC? Or something along those lines? I know it was Philly though.

b0ng
12-30-2008, 12:10 PM
I don't follow the NFL on the East Coast anymore than ESPN feeds me, but what was that talk about the Philly DC? Or something along those lines? I know it was Philly though.

Jim johnson's longest tenured asst (I want to say his last name is McDermott, but that could be the NE OC)

threetoedpete
12-30-2008, 12:20 PM
I understand a new DC wanting to be with familiar folks but I think we've got too many good positional coaches for that to happen.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6186849.html

The Texans have fired defensive coordinator Richard Smith, defensive backs coach Jon Hoke and defensive line coach Jethro Franklin.

Smith, who was under fire from fans and media this season, was the coordinator during Gary Kubiak's first three seasons.

Kubiak is expected to conduct a search for Smith's replacement. Because the Texans have personnel to fit a 4-3 scheme as opposed to the 3-4 they played under Dom Capers, The new coordinator will be expected to play the same defense.

Well let's hope he's better at finding a DC than he was at finding FA running backs.

ObsiWan
12-30-2008, 12:24 PM
Should we close this thread too?

Ole Miss Texan
12-30-2008, 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan
I understand a new DC wanting to be with familiar folks but I think we've got too many good positional coaches for that to happen.

Well let's hope he's better at finding a DC than he was at finding FA running backs.

Well we got rid of Smith which was expected. Hoke has been here every year and with our secondary I thought he was next in line to be replaced.

Franklin was kind of a wild card. Can't argue one way or another. I've made my comments on the DL players- TJ has probably maxed out, Amobi is and always has been a project, Okam is a 5th rd rookie. We've seen some decent play from unexpected players but the bottom line is they still arent' getting enough pressure. Frank Bush used to coach our DL some so I wonder if he focuses on that some too.

We're only going to be adding more DL players so might as well get the right guy.