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View Full Version : So who wants Kubiak fired, and why?


Marcus
12-28-2008, 03:57 PM
Here's your thread to get it all out on the head coach. Keep this thread about Kubiak and Kubiak only.

brakos82
12-28-2008, 03:59 PM
*crickets* :thinking:

Malloy
12-28-2008, 04:00 PM
Can I put a NO in here? :)

ChrisG
12-28-2008, 04:01 PM
who the hell would want him fired. sure he has made some mistakes but everyone does

he has been here for what 2 years? most of the time it takes longer than that to build a team. ppl who dont kno crap about building a team want to see results as soon as a new coach walks in, it almost ever works like that

and also y even start this thread? you had nothing to add and seem to be looking to start arguments.

i hope an admin locks this up. y start threads with nothing to post

J-Russ
12-28-2008, 04:02 PM
http://bravellir.com/gallery/d/6886-1/tumbleweed.gif

spurstexanstros
12-28-2008, 04:04 PM
who the hell would want him fired. sure he has made some mistakes but everyone does

he has been here for what 2 years? most of the time it takes longer than that to build a team. ppl who dont kno crap about building a team want to see results as soon as a new coach walks in, it almost ever works like that

and also y even start this thread? you had nothing to add and seem to be looking to start arguments.

i hope an admin locks this up. y start threads with nothing to post

You must have missed the countless fire Kubiak threads.

Marcus
12-28-2008, 04:05 PM
Oh, there are a few here that want him fired. I've been able to tell from the tone of their posts. I just want to see if they grow a set and fess up to it.

Goldensilence
12-28-2008, 04:07 PM
Only argument I can see being made is not firing RS soon enough and some game management concerns. Other then that in two years he's overhauled his side of the ball totally and has the team headed in the right direction.

Nawzer
12-28-2008, 04:07 PM
I don't think the majority here want him fired. He's called some bad plays earlier in the year and had trouble with just managing the game. Unless we can get Bill Cowher I don't think there's anyone out there who can do a better job than Kubiak right away next year.

Big Lou
12-28-2008, 04:09 PM
WTF!!!!

Kubes took an anemic Offense and put it in the top three in the NFL. It also has room to grow. If they build from here and reduce turnovers, and get better in the Red Zone, this will be unstopable.

OK, so the defense needs help, but the base is there. A new DC with #90, #23, #59, and a couple of high round 2009 draft picks and maybe the same thing happens on the D side of the ball.

Besides who's out there that you want. (That will actually come to Houston)

If we don't make the playoffs next year, then all the Fire Kubiak stuff can start.

stingray
12-28-2008, 04:15 PM
I don't want Gary Fired, but I wanna see a winning season next year for sure. He needs to have a winning season next year.

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 04:25 PM
I want him fired. Reasons: poor playcalling and clock management when it counts, and this is something that he should have at least learned by now. Poor red zone playcalling. Lack of toughness throughout the team. Lack of an ability to finish games. He will cost us a couple games on trying to out-smart and out-cute our opponents. Our team's preparation is also lacking, especially when it comes to road games. I don't see a lot of these trends changing next year, so we will lose a couple games we should have won on paper due to these issues.

I acknowledge that our offense is improving, but having a great offense that stumbles in the red zone is a major issue. I also think we have the players on offense that make it so great...our receiving corps is tops in the league in talent, and we found a real diamond in Slaton. But I have to wonder how we would have faired without Slaton being the kind of player that he is.

If we don't make the playoffs next year, I think his job will be in jeopardy, unless ownership is okay with middling records.

Hervoyel
12-28-2008, 04:49 PM
I don't want him fired necessarily but I'm still not entirely convinced that he's the coach who will take us to the promised land. There are a lot of things that Gary Kubiak ("and staff" which is as far down the ladder as I'll go because they are a reflection of him) has fixed here. Are we better than we were when he came here? Of course. Absolutely. We've improved in a number of areas (mostly on the offensive side) and I'd be a fool to not accept that.

We're not a dynasty however. We aren't so good that we're beyond criticism or concern.

On offense we play soft at times. We come out unprepared too often. We are a lousy road team and we still show a propensity to "melt down" in hostile environments. We have trouble with turnovers and we have trouble scoring in the red zone. We tend to be good about penalties until we get a few and then we lose our composure and commit a bunch in a single game. We all can and have seen the team do some inexplicable things where play calling has been concerned. There isn't any question that at times Gary Kubiak has called (or approved) some insanely stupid calls. He can't manage a clock for shit and he tends to be a really bad liar when it comes time to explain himself. "dead legs"? Bullshit. According to Gary his team hasn't quit once this season but this flies in the face of the evidence before us. They've quit a few times this year. They laid down against Baltimore and they did it again against Oakland. They seem unprepared at times. Under Gary Kubiak the Texans seem to play "stupid" every now and then.

On defense we are not much better than we were when he got here. We were 23rd before this game today and in the past two years we've been 24th in total defense. We can't get any pressure on the QB and we can't stop the run. We have a plethora of problems on this side of the ball to add to those on offense. Our defense looks lost in the woods at times.

Does this mean I want Kubiak fired? No. Many of these things could be said about a lot of coaches in the NFL. Go to just about any teams message board that doesn't employ a Belichick or a Dungy and you'll find complaints like this. We could do a lot worse than Gary Kubiak. He's a step up from Dom Capers.

Is he going to take us into winning territory however? I don't know and I'm worried that we may have a guy who can improve a team but doesn't know how to make them consistent winners. We don't know. Really if you think about it we can't possibly know. Until the players either respond to him completely and start winning or quit on him entirely and get him fired we just don't know. He's mucking around in that 8-8 area where you can't find enough fault in him to make a good case for firing him and you can't find enough to like about the job he's done to want to extend his contract or proclaim him the next big thing.

I know this. I know that if he isn't that guy whose going to take us to consistent winning football then he's without any doubt going to leave the pantry better stocked than it was when he came here. I think we have to give him another year to see if he can finish this up. I think that another good draft will pretty much have this team loaded and deep and then you have to start saying "Gary, you've got all the ammo anyone could ask for. Now either go out there and start beating people or we're going to have to look at replacing you".

One more year IMO and if it's another year like this one then next season I'm going to be calling for the Texans to quit dicking around with this glorified offensive coordinator who can't lead and go hire a real coach. If he can take them forward into the 9-11 wins range then I'm a happy man.

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 04:54 PM
Nobody who knows anything about football thought Kubiak should be fired at ANY point this season.

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 04:54 PM
Lock this thread this is stupid

Kubes is staying case closed

Shush. This is a valid discussion, regardless of whether or not Kubes is returning.

Big Lou
12-28-2008, 04:55 PM
Lock this thread this is stupid

Kubes is staying case closed


Owen Wilson: "Lock it up!"

Vince Vaughn: "No you lock it up!"

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 04:55 PM
Nobody who knows anything about football thought Kubiak should be fired at ANY point this season.

You mean the talking heads on TV? That would assume the talking heads on TV actually TALK about the Texans. Our team is persona non grata on the national level, and the local honks are scrubs, at best.

Hervoyel
12-28-2008, 04:57 PM
People please resist the urge to contribute valuable opinions like "lock this thread because I see no value in it". If you feel that way you are cordially invited to go find another one that suits you better.

Hervoyel
12-28-2008, 05:02 PM
Shush. This is a valid discussion, regardless of whether or not Kubes is returning.

It is indeed and next season we are going to begin to see those national media types putting Kubiak on their "Might be in the hot seat" articles whether there's any truth to this or not. It's just a case of time running out on an NFL coach. You bring a guy into a "basket case" situation like Houston post-2005 and everyone spots him a season to get the lay of the land. Then you expect to see some improvement and Kubiak gave us that in 2007 with a .500 record. The next year (2008) you expect them to start looking like winners and we did that.....kinda. We're still .500 so technically this season is something of a wash for us but we had some improvement in very visible areas and so Kubiak doesn't get the kind of criticism he might have. Next year if we make a lot of the same mistakes then the talking heads will see him as a fair game to start talking job security about.

I thought this was a very good thread idea and topical. Kubiak is not a slam-dunk choice for getting a 5 year contract extension by most peoples standards. We have issues and some of them aren't going away like they should be. There's room to talk about this.

Marcus
12-28-2008, 05:07 PM
Shush. This is a valid discussion, regardless of whether or not Kubes is returning.

Thank you, Jen. And thank you for your opinion.

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 05:10 PM
It is indeed and next season we are going to begin to see those national media types putting Kubiak on their "Might be in the hot seat" articles whether there's any truth to this or not. It's just a case of time running out on an NFL coach. You bring a guy into a "basket case" situation like Houston post-2005 and everyone spots him a season to get the lay of the land. Then you expect to see some improvement and Kubiak gave us that in 2007 with a .500 record. The next year (2008) you expect them to start looking like winners and we did that.....kinda. We're still .500 so technically this season is something of a wash for us but we had some improvement in very visible areas and so Kubiak doesn't get the kind of criticism he might have. Next year if we make a lot of the same mistakes then the talking heads will see him as a fair game to start talking job security about.

I thought this was a very good thread idea and topical. Kubiak is not a slam-dunk choice for getting a 5 year contract extension by most peoples standards. We have issues and some of them aren't going away like they should be. There's room to talk about this.

We've seen improvements, no doubt, but to me, we're STILL 8-8. Those improvements haven't shown in the win column, and to me, there's something holding this team back BESIDES the woeful defense.

There are intangibles like toughness and attitude, and tangibles like preparation and playcalling/game management that I think are really missing from this team and I'm betting that THESE are the things that are holding us back, besides a horrible defense, that lay at the feet of the coaches.

I really hope we turn it around next year and see a team with a nasty winning attitude, but I seriously doubt that Kubes is the guy to get us over the attitude or "win when it counts" hump. I'm with you on that, Herv.

Big Lou
12-28-2008, 05:11 PM
Bottom line this team was in shambles when he took over, and the Texans have gotten better every year since.......

Don't look at Miami, Atlanta, and Baltimore and compare. Kubiak has improved this team every year. The record is not a true indicator of this teams ability.

Before Kubiak was here, no one even mentioned the Texans. Now they are known and at least respected enough that teams no longer look past them.

Hervoyel
12-28-2008, 05:16 PM
We've seen improvements, no doubt, but to me, we're STILL 8-8. Those improvements haven't shown in the win column, and to me, there's something holding this team back BESIDES the woeful defense.

There are intangibles like toughness and attitude, and tangibles like preparation and playcalling/game management that I think are really missing from this team and I'm betting that THESE are the things that are holding us back, besides a horrible defense, that lays at the feet of the coaches.

I really hope we turn it around next year and see a team with a nasty winning attitude, but I seriously doubt that Kubes is the guy to get us over the attitude or "win when it counts" hump. I'm with you on that, Herv.


Exactly and it is really shocking how many other teams are having this same discussion. Teams that are going to the playoffs are having this debate. Titans boards are filled with critics of Jeff Fisher for instance. I see lots of problems and to me it's all a case of what kind of coach do we have? Do we have a guy who can pick it up and become great? Do we have Bill Belichick circa: 1991-95? That guy was no "genius" at the time. He made mistakes and pissed people off and got fired. Do we have Jerry Glanville? I don't mean in the wacky personality disorder way but is he a guy who can basically fix one side of the ball and drag a team from being a loser to being a bottom of the heap quasi-winner.

What is Kubiak's ceiling and are we there yet? That to me is a huge question and if the answer is "this is it" then what do the Texans do about it?

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 05:17 PM
Don't look at Miami, Atlanta, and Baltimore and compare. Kubiak has improved this team every year. The record is not a true indicator of this teams ability.


No, the record doesn't really indicate ability, but unfortunately it's the only thing that really counts at the end of the day.

As Herm Edwards once said: "You play to win the game." And it really is that simple. Once again, we're not a playoff team, and with all the "ability" this team has, we should be better than 8-8 in what most people said would be our playoff year.

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 05:19 PM
Okay, I'll just repeat what I said the last time we had this discussion.

The guy had two great seasons of improvement - and then ONE ROUGH STRETCH.

Which included three games on the road against playoff teams to start the year.

Which included a hurricane that totally destroyed our season.

And - DESPITE all of that - look how we finished after an 0-4 start. 8-4, and 5 wins in our last 6 games.

You DO NOT fire a guy who has taken this team from COMPLETE AND TOTAL GARBAGE to what it is now. They had ONE bad stretch this season. ONE bad stretch. How does that overrule what he has done up until the ONE bad stretch? It doesn't.

Also - we're not the same 8-8 we were last year. We have an identity on offense. We have our RB star we so sorely needed. We have a QB who proved he can stay healthy (cheap shots don't count as injuries IMO).

So no, Kubiak doesn't deserve to be fired. He deserves an apology from a lot of the a-holes on this board who wanted him gone because he had gone through one bad stretch of football after all he had done for this team.

This is Gary Kubiak's dream job. NOBODY wants him to win more than he does. None of the fans, none of the players, nobody. He KILLS himself for this team, and I think he deserves a hell of a lot better than what he's gotten from a lot of fans this year.

No, he's not perfect. Yes, he's had problems. But look at the big picture here. We have an offense that is approaching ELITE status, and now we just need to work out our defensive issues.

/end rant

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 05:28 PM
So no, Kubiak doesn't deserve to be fired. He deserves an apology from a lot of the a-holes on this board who wanted him gone because he had gone through one bad stretch of football after all he had done for this team.

Really? In the midst of a rational discussion, you need to call those of us who think he should be fired "a-holes"? Really?

There are plenty of good, RATIONAL reasons for keeping Kubiak or wanting a new head coach. I do not dislike Kubiak as a person, but I'm not discussion him as a person, I'm making an assessment of his JOB PERFORMANCE. And IMHO, I'm not entirely happy with his performance nor am I convinced he can take this team beyond 8-8.

There are positives and negatives to this season, and I'm more than happy to discuss them rationally and respectfully. I don't think getting emotional and calling those who think he should be fired "a-holes" is very productive or speaks to a rational argument as to why he should stay.

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 05:32 PM
Really? In the midst of a rational discussion, you need to call those of us who think he should be fired "a-holes"? Really?

There are plenty of good, RATIONAL reasons for keeping Kubiak or wanting a new head coach. I do not dislike Kubiak as a person, but I'm not discussion him as a person, I'm making an assessment of his JOB PERFORMANCE. And IMHO, I'm not entirely happy with his performance nor am I convinced he can take this team beyond 8-8.

There are positives and negatives to this season, and I'm more than happy to discuss them rationally and respectfully. I don't think getting emotional and calling those who think he should be fired "a-holes" is very productive or speaks to a rational argument as to why he should stay.

It sounds like you only read the a-hole part of my post. I gave plenty of reasons why he should stay. I'm pretty much always rational and respectful when it comes to football talk... but fans turning their back on the coach after all the good he's done - and the Tennessee Titans - always makes me kind of a jerk. :D

Hervoyel
12-28-2008, 05:40 PM
It sounds like you only read the a-hole part of my post. I gave plenty of reasons why he should stay. I'm pretty much always rational and respectful when it comes to football talk... but fans turning their back on the coach after all the good he's done - and the Tennessee Titans - always makes me kind of a jerk. :D

People tend to do that when you call them a-holes.

Personally I think that arguments can be made either way (and I expect they will be once next season gets on the radar).

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 05:43 PM
If Kubiak tanks next year - I will eat tons of crow. I just really think he's the guy.

Were you actually calling for him to be fired earlier in the year? Jen, were you? I'm sorry I resorted to name-calling... I just didn't really think there were that many people who called for Kubes to definitely be fired during this season.

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 05:44 PM
It sounds like you only read the a-hole part of my post. I gave plenty of reasons why he should stay. I'm pretty much always rational and respectful when it comes to football talk... but fans turning their back on the coach after all the good he's done - and the Tennessee Titans - always makes me kind of a jerk. :D

Actually, you didn't give a lot of solid reasons. You did supply a lot of excuses - some of them valid - but at the end of the day, excuses don't explain away our inability to win against winning teams or our poor red zone conversion rate or poor game preparation or far too many road losses or poor playcalling.

If you truly, in your heart of hearts believes that this team can make the playoffs under Kubiak and truly become a winning team that can take on all comers, then you're entitled to your opinion.

We ARE a better team positionally on offense. What a difference a decent QB makes, and a RB, and a TE and a good many playmakers that our team acquired AFTER Kubes became the head coach. There is a lot of talent on our offense and we SHOULD have won more games this year, but we didn't.

At the end of the day, we are 8-8 and we won't get the benefit of an Ike asterisk or a Rosencopter asterisk or a Jags coin-flip asterisk or a came-out-flat-versus-the-Raiders asterisk. We are 8-8 and we should not be having this discussion if I believed that Kubes brings the intangibles that I think would take us to the next level.

Pantherstang84
12-28-2008, 05:44 PM
Okay, I'll just repeat what I said the last time we had this discussion.

The guy had two great seasons of improvement - and then ONE ROUGH STRETCH.

Which included three games on the road against playoff teams to start the year.

Which included a hurricane that totally destroyed our season.

And - DESPITE all of that - look how we finished after an 0-4 start. 8-4, and 5 wins in our last 6 games.

You DO NOT fire a guy who has taken this team from COMPLETE AND TOTAL GARBAGE to what it is now. They had ONE bad stretch this season. ONE bad stretch. How does that overrule what he has done up until the ONE bad stretch? It doesn't.

Also - we're not the same 8-8 we were last year. We have an identity on offense. We have our RB star we so sorely needed. We have a QB who proved he can stay healthy (cheap shots don't count as injuries IMO).

So no, Kubiak doesn't deserve to be fired. He deserves an apology from a lot of the a-holes on this board who wanted him gone because he had gone through one bad stretch of football after all he had done for this team.

This is Gary Kubiak's dream job. NOBODY wants him to win more than he does. None of the fans, none of the players, nobody. He KILLS himself for this team, and I think he deserves a hell of a lot better than what he's gotten from a lot of fans this year.

No, he's not perfect. Yes, he's had problems. But look at the big picture here. We have an offense that is approaching ELITE status, and now we just need to work out our defensive issues.

/end rant

Rep.

That being said. My faith in Kubes will be greatly shaken if some major changes are not made on the defensive side of the ball this offseason.

Pantherstang84
12-28-2008, 05:47 PM
People tend to do that when you call them a-holes.

Personally I think that arguments can be made either way (and I expect they will be once next season gets on the radar).

Kind of like an 8-8 record? 50-50?

Pantherstang84
12-28-2008, 05:49 PM
Actually, you didn't give a lot of solid reasons. You did supply a lot of excuses - some of them valid - but at the end of the day, excuses don't explain away our inability to win against winning teams or our poor red zone conversion rate or poor game preparation or far too many road losses or poor playcalling.

If you truly, in your heart of hearts believes that this team can make the playoffs under Kubiak and truly become a winning team that can take on all comers, then you're entitled to your opinion.

We ARE a better team positionally on offense. What a difference a decent QB makes, and a RB, and a TE and a good many playmakers that our team acquired AFTER Kubes became the head coach. There is a lot of talent on our offense and we SHOULD have won more games this year, but we didn't.

At the end of the day, we are 8-8 and we won't get the benefit of an Ike asterisk or a Rosencopter asterisk or a Jags coin-flip asterisk or a came-out-flat-versus-the-Raiders asterisk. We are 8-8 and we should not be having this discussion if I believed that Kubes brings the intangibles that I think would take us to the next level.

All of the talent in the world does not make you a good football team.

Sincerely,

Jerry Jones

IMO. Sage Rosenfels is the reason the Texans finished @ .500. All by himself. You can't put his one man show in the Indy home game on Kubiak. It just won't fly.

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 05:51 PM
If Kubiak tanks next year - I will eat tons of crow. I just really think he's the guy.

Were you actually calling for him to be fired earlier in the year? Jen, were you? I'm sorry I resorted to name-calling... I just didn't really think there were that many people who called for Kubes to definitely be fired during this season.

I was a doubter halfway during the season, when I began questioning the identity of this team. I voted back then in a poll that he should not come back next year because I don't see anything fundamentally changing in the way he coaches, he just has a shitload of talent to work with.

Last week's Raiders game made me firmly say he needs to be fired because I honestly don't know how he can make those two pass calls with 3rd and 4th and a half yard after being a head coach for almost 3 full years, especially after similar playcalling has backfired on him this very season. I seriously cannot understand doing that in that situation. I was pretty much convinced that the head coach is NOT learning from experience, and I was done.

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 05:52 PM
Really? In the midst of a rational discussion, you need to call those of us who think he should be fired "a-holes"? Really?

There are plenty of good, RATIONAL reasons for keeping Kubiak or wanting a new head coach. I do not dislike Kubiak as a person, but I'm not discussion him as a person, I'm making an assessment of his JOB PERFORMANCE. And IMHO, I'm not entirely happy with his performance nor am I convinced he can take this team beyond 8-8.

There are positives and negatives to this season, and I'm more than happy to discuss them rationally and respectfully. I don't think getting emotional and calling those who think he should be fired "a-holes" is very productive or speaks to a rational argument as to why he should stay.

Those aren't excuses, they're reasons. The Ike thing was huge, and that's not hindsight or retrospect. Starting on the road three games - with the first two being the best teams in the AFC - was huge. I didn't expect the Texans to win either one of those games.

I don't make excuses for this team. We didn't lose the Jags game because of a coin flip - we lost because we couldn't contain David Garrard. I don't know what you mean by asterisks - I don't believe we should have any either. I'm very, very hard on this team. Harder than pretty much anyone I know who devotes huge chunks of time writing about them. Again - I don't think Kubes is perfect - but the good far outweighs the bad - and I do think we have a lot more positives going into this offseason than we did last year.

Dread-Head
12-28-2008, 05:54 PM
Keep Kubes. Get some hitmen in the secondary to help Robinson out and next year they'll make the playoffs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdUr5hF0yGc&feature=related

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 05:56 PM
I was a doubter halfway during the season, when I began questioning the identity of this team. I voted back then in a poll that he should not come back next year because I don't see anything fundamentally changing in the way he coaches, he just has a shitload of talent to work with.

Last week's Raiders game made me firmly say he needs to be fired because I honestly don't know how he can make those two pass calls with 3rd and 4th and a half yard after being a head coach for almost 3 full years, especially after similar playcalling has backfired on him this very season. I seriously cannot understand doing that in that situation. I was pretty much convinced that the head coach is NOT learning from experience, and I was done.

I don't disagree with any of that about the Raiders game. I was shocked at those bad play calls. Shocked. And they were not ready to play. It was a classic case of them taking Oakland too lightly, and the players thinking they were better than they are - which is mediocre.

But I still think the good outweighs the bad, and IMO wins at Green Bay and home against TEN are better than the bad that came from the Oakland loss. Just my opinion.

Mailman
12-28-2008, 05:58 PM
Actually, you didn't give a lot of solid reasons. You did supply a lot of excuses - some of them valid - but at the end of the day, excuses don't explain away our inability to win against winning teams or our poor red zone conversion rate or poor game preparation or far too many road losses or poor playcalling.

What you call a "valid excuse" I call a reason.

Chris is absolutely correct in his assessment of Kubiak and I agree with him that Kubiak is owed much more deference and respect than his critics give him. He has done a very good job taking a crappy team and shaping it into a talented team on the cusp of being very good.

The quickest route to the basement of the AFC South would be to fire Kubiak and destroy the continuity the franchise is just beginning to build. Continuity is an asset. Nurture it and the winning will follow. Gut it and we're back to sucking.

Big Lou
12-28-2008, 06:03 PM
Keep Kubes. Get some hitmen in the secondary to help Robinson out and next year they'll make the playoffs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdUr5hF0yGc&feature=related


Bring on Safety William Moore out of Mizzou!!!!!!!

Mailman
12-28-2008, 06:04 PM
Jeff Fisher's first five seasons:

1-5
7-9
8-8
8-8
8-8

Firing Kubiak after taking a two-win team to six, eight, and eight win seasons would be a completely stupid idea.

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 06:07 PM
Jeff Fisher's first five seasons:

1-5
7-9
8-8
8-8
8-8

Firing Kubiak after taking a two-win team to six, eight, and eight win seasons would be a completely stupid idea.

Looking back, it's a MIRACLE that Bud Adams stuck with him through those three 8-8 seasons.

Uh... if we go 8-8 for the third season in a row, I'll probably be on the side of those who want Kubes gone... but I don't think that's going to happen.

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 06:09 PM
I don't disagree with any of that about the Raiders game. I was shocked at those bad play calls. Shocked. And they were not ready to play. It was a classic case of them taking Oakland too lightly, and the players thinking they were better than they are - which is mediocre.

But I still think the good outweighs the bad, and IMO wins at Green Bay and home against TEN are better than the bad that came from the Oakland loss. Just my opinion.

To me, the Oakland game is indicative of something that can be greatly affected by coaching. Why is the team not prepared and taking the Raiders lightly? How does the coaching staff allow this attitude?

And that's really the crux of it to me. You can not win meaningfully or consistently without a winning football attitude, and it's more than improving on the offense and being third in the league. It's a toughness and football mentality that pervades an organization. It's hitting a D-lineman in the mouth after the whistle if he takes a shot at your QB.

I guess I want old school coaches who still teach toughness and have spittle flying out of their mouths at refs after bad calls, not coaches who see themselves as the CEOs of their teams, not really invoking any emotions. I want a team identity, and if anyone can successfully vocalize what the identity of our team is, I'd love to hear it.

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 06:13 PM
To me, the Oakland game is indicative of something that can be greatly affected by coaching. Why is the team not prepared and taking the Raiders lightly? How does the coaching staff allow this attitude?

And that's really the crux of it to me. You can not win meaningfully or consistently without a winning football attitude, and it's more than improving on the offense and being third in the league. It's a toughness and football mentality that pervades an organization. It's hitting a D-lineman in the mouth after the whistle if he takes a shot at your QB.

I guess I want old school coaches who still teach toughness and have spittle flying out of their mouths at refs after bad calls, not coaches who see themselves as the CEOs of their teams, not really invoking any emotions. I want a team identity, and if anyone can successfully vocalize what the identity of our team is, I'd love to hear it.

Wow - we want the exact same things for our team... funny that we totally disagree on what we have currently.

I was RAGING last year when Schaub got hit and none of our guys took out the guys who hit him cheaply. I think Kubiak has it in him to be that fiery, angry HC, but he just doesn't show it much to the media. He very often gets very angry and vocal on the sideline, though.

Far as our identity, I don't know. I agree - I want that identity too... I'm jealous of the Titans' defensive identity... same with the Steelers. I want to be the rough, blast'em in the face team - not the finesse team... that's why I want Richard Smith gone so badly. I think we need a complete attitude transplant on defense. Players and coaches.

Mailman
12-28-2008, 06:13 PM
To me, the Oakland game is indicative of something that can be greatly affected by coaching. Why is the team not prepared and taking the Raiders lightly? How does the coaching staff allow this attitude?

And that's really the crux of it to me. You can not win meaningfully or consistently without a winning football attitude, and it's more than improving on the offense and being third in the league. It's a toughness and football mentality that pervades an organization. It's hitting a D-lineman in the mouth after the whistle if he takes a shot at your QB.

I guess I want old school coaches who still teach toughness and have spittle flying out of their mouths at refs after bad calls, not coaches who see themselves as the CEOs of their teams, not really invoking any emotions. I want a team identity, and if anyone can successfully vocalize what the identity of our team is, I'd love to hear it.

Houston 13 Tennessee 12

The Texans don't win that game without that same attitude and toughness.

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 06:16 PM
Houston 13 Tennessee 12

The Texans don't win that game without that same attitude and toughness.

That's true - but it's been the exception more often than the rule. I agree we need that kind of attitude ALWAYS.

Mailman
12-28-2008, 06:19 PM
Bill Belichick is everyone's unanimous genius coach, but he didn't exactly start out with an exemplary W-L record.

In his first five seasons with Cleveland the Browns finished:

6-10
7-9
7-9
11-5
5-11

He then went to New England and finished 5-11 in his first year there before the Pats went on to win the Super Bowl in 2001.

Perspective, anyone?

GlassHalfFull
12-28-2008, 06:19 PM
During the game today, when we were down 10-0 and the offense wasn't performing, Kubiak had the offense lined up on a bench and was giving them hell. We all know what happened after that. Kubiak does have fire and passion.

I, for one, think he is going to be a great head coach for somebody one day, and would be really pissed if we weren't the somebody. I promise you that if we were stupid enough to fire him, he would be snapped up by another team in a heartbeat. Luckily, I trust Bob McNair to make the right decision and keep him around. Thank God that some posters here do not get to make the call about firing and hiring.

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 06:22 PM
Wow - we want the exact same things for our team... funny that we totally disagree on what we have currently.

I was RAGING last year when Schaub got hit and none of our guys took out the guys who hit him cheaply. I think Kubiak has it in him to be that fiery, angry HC, but he just doesn't show it much to the media. He very often gets very angry and vocal on the sideline, though.

Far as our identity, I don't know. I agree - I want that identity too... I'm jealous of the Titans' defensive identity... same with the Steelers. I want to be the rough, blast'em in the face team - not the finesse team... that's why I want Richard Smith gone so badly. I think we need a complete attitude transplant on defense. Players and coaches.

You know what, I feel like, and I hate to say it, the Arizona Cardinals. They obviously made the playoffs this year, but they've had this potential for a couple years now and I could never get a vibe on what they were about as a football team. And I still kinda don't.

The thing with Arizona (and us) is I think they've been losers or mediocre for so long that they basically have the identity of nougat. Just sorta there, and rather non-descript. You can go from a losing team to an 8-8 or 9-7 team and not really undergo much of a mental transformation if you have the talent and it starts to emerge. But I truly believe going from good to great comes top-down from the head coach and his staff.

Maybe getting Smith out and someone new as DC in will give us an attitude and an identity that will spread, but at this point I'm really not wanting more finesse or "genius" types of guys if they're not going to make their players want to stomp a mudhole in their opponent's ass and walk it dry. I would LOVE for other teams to fear our team on both sides of the ball.

Mailman
12-28-2008, 06:22 PM
That's true - but it's been the exception more often than the rule. I agree we need that kind of attitude ALWAYS.

Undoubtedly, but we also need to be realistic and remember that the players and coaches are not automatons. There will be those Sundays when teams perform poorly. The Texans have clearly improved in this area over the last couple of years. They're not losing to crappy teams and they're competing with the good ones.

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 06:24 PM
Houston 13 Tennessee 12

The Texans don't win that game without that same attitude and toughness.

Too bad it only emerges for one game.

Schaub did show me something that game and I hope he becomes the catalyst, along with "won't go down" Slaton, for some toughness on the offense.

rollinstone18
12-28-2008, 06:25 PM
During the game today, when we were down 10-0 and the offense wasn't performing, Kubiak had the offense lined up on a bench and was giving them hell. We all know what happened after that. Kubiak does have fire and passion.

I, for one, think he is going to be a great head coach for somebody one day, and would be really pissed if we weren't the somebody. I promise you that if we were stupid enough to fire him, he would be snapped up by another team in a heartbeat. Luckily, I trust Bob McNair to make the right decision and keep him around. Thank God that some posters here do not get to make the call about firing and hiring.

ditto.

Pantherstang84
12-28-2008, 06:27 PM
You know what, I feel like, and I hate to say it, the Arizona Cardinals. They obviously made the playoffs this year, but they've had this potential for a couple years now and I could never get a vibe on what they were about as a football team. And I still kinda don't.

The thing with Arizona (and us) is I think they've been losers or mediocre for so long that they basically have the identity of nougat. Just sorta there, and rather non-descript. You can go from a losing team to an 8-8 or 9-7 team and not really undergo much of a mental transformation if you have the talent and it starts to emerge. But I truly believe going from good to great comes top-down from the head coach and his staff.

Maybe getting Smith out and someone new as DC in will give us an attitude and an identity that will spread, but at this point I'm really not wanting more finesse or "genius" types of guys if they're not going to make their players want to stomp a mudhole in their opponent's ass and walk it dry. I would LOVE for other teams to fear our team on both sides of the ball.

The West Coast offense by definition is a finesse offense. However, that does not mean it is not feared. You don't think DCs have nightmares trying to figure out to stop the Texans offense? Of course they do.

Now the defense is another matter entirely. If Kubiak does not do the right thing by the defense this off season, then I'll join your club. However, Kubes does deserve the chance to make it right and I'm willing to give him a chance.

Spike
12-28-2008, 06:30 PM
Winning football attitude?

When we are sitting at 3-7, I am thinking Kubes needs to win at least 6 to keep his job. At this point in the season, the whole team understands that the playoffs are out of reach. Our starting QB is going to be out for a long stretch. The majority of the fan base is exhausted with following this franchise.

I think winning five of the last six to finish at .500 shows that Kubiak has instilled a winning football attitude. Every team in the NFL has a disappointing game like the Oakland game.

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 06:31 PM
I think Schaub showed a LOT of anger and fire the last few weeks. I think he's becoming a leader. Slaton has a hell of a lot of toughness, and the offensive line gets a tougher and tougher rep the more our rushing yards continue to improve.

But yeah, like Jen said - the defense. Gawd if we can just somehow get another pass rusher - I think our attitude on defense could change in a hurry. Right now nobody's scared of anything on our defense... not even Mario, really, since they know they can double and triple him all game and at least marginalize him somewhat.

Mailman
12-28-2008, 06:32 PM
Too bad it only emerges for one game.

Schaub did show me something that game and I hope he becomes the catalyst, along with "won't go down" Slaton, for some toughness on the offense.

I don't think it emerged for one game or else the team wouldn't have finished 8-4 after that gravedigger start. Think about it. They lost the first four games but they refused to give up on the season. Likewise, they played one of their worst games of the season last week against Oakland (btw, the same team who beat Tampa on the road today) only to battle back from a pathetic start in the first quarter and control the game against the Bears.

These are indicators that Kubiak has the team headed in the right direction.

IlliniJen
12-28-2008, 06:38 PM
The West Coast offense by definition is a finesse offense. However, that does not mean it is not feared. You don't think DCs have nightmares trying to figure out to stop the Texans offense? Of course they do.

Now the defense is another matter entirely. If Kubiak does not do the right thing by the defense this off season, then I'll join your club. However, Kubes does deserve the chance to make it right and I'm willing to give him a chance.

Oh, I think our offense is to be feared scoring-wise. But my FEAR is that d-lineman really never face retribution for taking shots on Schaub, and I want a mean and nasty o-line who will not only protect their boy, but put a shot on someone who tries to hurt him outside of fair play (Jared Allen anyone?).

Pantherstang84
12-28-2008, 06:40 PM
Oh, I think our offense is to be feared scoring-wise. But my FEAR is that d-lineman really never face retribution for taking shots on Schaub, and I want a mean and nasty o-line who will not only protect their boy, but put a shot on someone who tries to hurt him outside of fair play (Jared Allen anyone?).

Unfortunately, the o linemen usually don't see those incidents because it happens behind them. Yes I would like to see some retribution from them as well, but they don't have eyes in the back of their heads.

Mailman
12-28-2008, 06:41 PM
"I can look you in the eye and say we were a much better team this year, and we have the exact same record. It's the energy level, the attitude. We started 0-4 and could have packed it in. Yet guys hung together, showed their class and character.''--Chester Pitts.

:texflag:

Brando
12-28-2008, 06:46 PM
During the game today, when we were down 10-0 and the offense wasn't performing, Kubiak had the offense lined up on a bench and was giving them hell. We all know what happened after that. Kubiak does have fire and passion.
I, for one, think he is going to be a great head coach for somebody one day, and would be really pissed if we weren't the somebody. I promise you that if we were stupid enough to fire him, he would be snapped up by another team in a heartbeat. Luckily, I trust Bob McNair to make the right decision and keep him around. Thank God that some posters here do not get to make the call about firing and hiring.

Thanks for bringing that up because I didn't notice that. I'm glad he did that because we needed something for our offense to get going. Before that we looked like the 2005 Texans.
:goodpost:

gary
12-28-2008, 06:48 PM
I give him at least one more season but if we finish 8-8 again or below which I doubt that we will but if we do then I think that it will be time to cut the chease with Gary K. and moveon.org. This team is just a couple of players away, ok maybe more but anyway but there is not enough draft picks to fix everything at one time but I think that we are just a couple of players away in 2009 on both sides of the football from at least being able to reach the playoffs or at I hope so because I am getting so tired of at the end of every season repeating the words next season will be our season but I think that we all are for that matter. This must change soon and I think that it will or at leat I hope so. We all want this team to change for the better and I do think that they are at least on somewhat of the right track. These are just my quick thoughts on this topic.

The1ApplePie
12-28-2008, 06:52 PM
They only reason Kubes should be fired is if he is destined to 8-8 mediocrity forever (see Wade Phillips, Herm Edwards).

You also have to factor in how much Andre Johnson basically drags the team along by himself.

Lucky
12-28-2008, 06:53 PM
Bill Belichick is everyone's unanimous genius coach, but he didn't exactly start out with an exemplary W-L record.

Perspective, anyone?
So Gary Kubiak must be the next Belichick? Because he's gotten off to a so-so start? And you're asking for perspective from others?

Dave Wannstedt begin his head coaching career with 7-9, 9-7, and 9-7 records. He, like Norv Turner, became an excellent example of a very good coordinator who couldn't win big as a head coach. And I could find dozens of similar examples of coaches who did little at the start of their careers, and continued on with mediocrity.

Lucky
12-28-2008, 06:55 PM
They only reason Kubes should be fired is if he is destined to 8-8 mediocrity forever (see Wade Phillips, Herm Edwards).
And by forever, you mean the remaining 2 years on his contract?

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 06:55 PM
They only reason Kubes should be fired is if he is destined to 8-8 mediocrity forever.


Er... so...

What?

Dread-Head
12-28-2008, 06:57 PM
Bill Belichick is everyone's unanimous genius coach, but he didn't exactly start out with an exemplary W-L record.

In his first five seasons with Cleveland the Browns finished:

6-10
7-9
7-9
11-5
5-11

He then went to New England and finished 5-11 in his first year there before the Pats went on to win the Super Bowl in 2001.

Perspective, anyone?


Uh...okay. Sorry, but could you do that piece again. We got a little feed back on the audio but other than that the video was pretty clear. Really sorry. The audio guy slipped a little. But we got the video guy from Belichik...so we KNOW HE'S A PRO!!

fikster
12-28-2008, 07:01 PM
I just want him to feel or should I say put some heat on his DC and staff this year and make a change. I think he is an offensive genius, but as a head coach he has to do a better job of managing the whole team and not just the offense. Again, it is obvious he knows what he is doing with O, but he needs to hold his defensive staff to the same standard.

Watching the Cowboys game today, Troy Aikman said that Andy Reid's best sign since he became the Eagles HC was DC Jim Johnson. Reid knew he could handle the offense but needed someone great to run the defense of his team. That is what I think we need, someone we can hand the defense over to and say the cupboard is half full, tell me what else you need and I will try to get it for you.

IMO, that is part of being a HC. Knowing your personal deficiencies and finding people to overcome those and make the organization better. If he lets Smith slide again, it will cause irrepairable harm to his reputation and legacy.

The1ApplePie
12-28-2008, 07:04 PM
Er... so...

What?

If this is as good as it gets, then give him the boot now. If he has real potential to be something more keep him.

Pretty simple

Mailman
12-28-2008, 07:05 PM
So Gary Kubiak must be the next Belichick? Because he's gotten off to a so-so start? And you're asking for perspective from others?

Dave Wannstedt begin his head coaching career with 7-9, 9-7, and 9-7 records. He, like Norv Turner, became an excellent example of a very good coordinator who couldn't win big as a head coach. And I could find dozens of similar examples of coaches who did little at the start of their careers, and continued on with mediocrity.

I don't know if Kubiak is the next Belichick (doubt it) or the next Wannstedt (doubt that, too), but lobbying for his premature dismissal when his job performance merits positive marks is anathema to building a winning tradition. The lesson here is patience. Give the man five years at least and go from there.

J-Russ
12-28-2008, 07:10 PM
I just want him to feel or should I say put some heat on his DC and staff this year and make a change. I think he is an offensive genius, but as a head coach he has to do a better job of managing the whole team and not just the offense. Again, it is obvious he knows what he is doing with O, but he needs to hold his defensive staff to the same standard.


Ummmm, hmm, you do know he became more involved with the D about 5 weeks ago right? I think it was either the week leading up to the 2nd Colts game or the Browns game that Kubiak said(in a chron article) that he was becoming more "involved" with the defense.

Don't know if he meant that he helped the D gameplan and scheme against opposing team, calling some defensive plays during games, and/or making some changes within the defensive coaching personnel. Whatever it was that he did, it showed instant improvement over the last part of the season, compared to the first 10 weeks when Richard Smith had control of the D.

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 07:14 PM
If this is as good as it gets, then give him the boot now. If he has real potential to be something more keep him.

Pretty simple

Yeah, I know what you meant... but that doesn't make any sense because unless we can tell the future - we don't know the answer. So saying "fire him if he's going to keep being mediocre" doesn't make any sense. If you're saying "yes, he's going to keep being mediocre, fire him" then that's fine... but nobody knows how he's going to turn out.

Lucky
12-28-2008, 07:17 PM
Give the man five years at least and go from there.
Kubiak does have a 5 year contract. Do you believe that Kubiak deserves that 5th season, no matter the results in '09? Do you feel that Kubiak has earned an extension, based upon a 22-26 record?

Dom Capers didn't get a 5th season, and he began with an expansion team. Was Capers fired by McNair prematurely?

The1ApplePie
12-28-2008, 07:19 PM
Yeah, I know what you meant... but that doesn't make any sense because unless we can tell the future - we don't know the answer. So saying "fire him if he's going to keep being mediocre" doesn't make any sense. If you're saying "yes, he's going to keep being mediocre, fire him" then that's fine... but nobody knows how he's going to turn out.

You have to evaluate situational things (glad I'm not in management)

You have to see if the offense is really the genius of Kubes or just Andre Johnson and Steve Slaton playing out of there minds

You can give a medicore coach good players and have a terrible team (see the 2009 Dallas Cowboys)

Lucky
12-28-2008, 07:20 PM
Whatever it was that he did, it showed instant improvement over the last part of the season, compared to the first 10 weeks when Richard Smith had control of the D.
Which, after 2 1/2 seasons, begs the question, "What took you so freakin' long???"

J-Russ
12-28-2008, 07:23 PM
Which, after 2 1/2 seasons, begs the question, "What took you so freakin' long???"

Guess it was the same excuse some of us gave Richard Smith on this board, which was:

1) Not enough talent on D
2)Injuries to our players
3)Converting from 3-4 to 4-3, which should only take 2 years to make the transition to.

Kubiak probably thought enough was enough with all the excuses, and decided to go into lesser known territory and take some control of the defense.

eriadoc
12-28-2008, 07:28 PM
I just want him to feel or should I say put some heat on his DC and staff this year and make a change. I think he is an offensive genius, but as a head coach he has to do a better job of managing the whole team and not just the offense. Again, it is obvious he knows what he is doing with O, but he needs to hold his defensive staff to the same standard.

Watching the Cowboys game today, Troy Aikman said that Andy Reid's best sign since he became the Eagles HC was DC Jim Johnson. Reid knew he could handle the offense but needed someone great to run the defense of his team. That is what I think we need, someone we can hand the defense over to and say the cupboard is half full, tell me what else you need and I will try to get it for you.

IMO, that is part of being a HC. Knowing your personal deficiencies and finding people to overcome those and make the organization better. If he lets Smith slide again, it will cause irrepairable harm to his reputation and legacy.

I agree with you. The thing is, he's done that. We have too many coaches, because he's trying to find the guy. How many defensive coaches has he hired? at least three, IIRC. They haven't worked out, but I think he's working to remedy the defense. It just never happens fast enough for fans unless you get a miracle turnaround. The way Kubiak has handled the coaching staff is markedly different from what Capers did.

As for whether or not Capers was fired prematurely, I think it's obvious he wasn't. He lost the team, in part because of how he handled the coaching staff.

Wolf
12-28-2008, 07:53 PM
Kubiak should stay (and will)

Road wins are so hard because our red zone offense stinks, We have to be able to run it in ..and stupid turnovers

I think with an upgrade in the C and G spots, that will help (along with a big back)

Defensively is what will make or break Kubiak

we have to get a mean attitude of stopping the run and creating havok on the opposing QB's

that wins on the road

I imagine if we had Jim Schwartz and the titan type defense .. This team would be sitting at 12 wins or so easily

Granted I picked one of the best defenses in the league and that wasn't my intention, my intention was a defense like them that can stop the run and get after the QB ...we have Mario to create havok and that is it.

If Kubiak can't get the defense fixed, that is his downfall

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 07:56 PM
I imagine if we had Jim Schwartz and the titan type defense .. This team would be sitting at 12 wins or so easily


Nah, the Titans have WAY better personnel, period. Their D-line has tons of talent. Look at their depth - that Jones kid had 3.5 sacks last week and he's a bench player!

I really think we need a TOTAL attitude transplant on defense - coaches and players. I wouldn't be shocked if every one of our draft picks were on defense, with maybe one pick used on the O-line.

Wolf
12-28-2008, 08:00 PM
Nah, the Titans have WAY better personnel, period. Their D-line has tons of talent. Look at their depth - that Jones kid had 3.5 sacks last week and he's a bench player!

I really think we need a TOTAL attitude transplant on defense - coaches and players. I wouldn't be shocked if every one of our draft picks were on defense, with maybe one pick used on the O-line.

true, I worded it wrong, I was thinking of having the titans defense with this offense ... would be scary even with the turnovers our offense was committing.. and I would like to see with quality coaching (like you said) that jones kid with his sacks and they even made Robaire smith a name when he was with them

infantrycak
12-28-2008, 08:00 PM
Why couldn't Ronald Reagan have a third term?

Sorry, I was confused and thought I was in the useless discussions thread (no matter how much merit can be brought to either side).

DiehardChris
12-28-2008, 08:01 PM
true, I worded it wrong, I was thinking of having the titans defense with this offense ... would be scary even with the turnovers our offense was committing

They'd be a LOCK for the SB, for sure.

Can you imagine if they'd drafted Cutler? *whew*

Wolf
12-28-2008, 08:03 PM
Why couldn't Ronald Reagan have a third term?

Sorry, I was confused and thought I was in the useless discussions thread (no matter how much merit can be brought to either side).

I have a half full glass when it comes to the defensive line.. somehow It seems our coaching doesn't bring out the best in them (mario was the exception) ... I have no stats , just blind homerism ..esp when I see what the Titans did to no-names and somehow get those players to overachieve

Wolf
12-28-2008, 08:06 PM
I just wish the defense could find the players like the offensive side of the ball did and put those players, in positions to succeed .. Kubiak and crew plucked Walter out from the Bengals and Gibbs helped the OL so much this year (still needs improvement in short yardage)

but again for every Walter there was a green and brown

checo446
12-28-2008, 08:09 PM
I want Kubiak to stay. I just want most of the defensive coaching staff shown the door. Combine a more aggressive defensive scheme with better personnel at particularly the DE spot and secondary along with re-signing Dunta Robinson and I think we are closer to a playoff team than many believe provided we can keep Schaub and the offense healthy.

Specnatz
12-28-2008, 08:18 PM
I wonder if the people who want Kubiak fired if they realize that if Kubiak is fired, that the next coach would most likely scrap the zone blocking scheme. So the 2008 first round pick would be a waste and that it would set the offense back at least 1 year if not two. Where as the offense is not a major problem (yes there are things that can and should improve), it is the defense that is a huge factor holding this team down.

threetoedpete
12-28-2008, 08:28 PM
Already had my say on this. I could see the boss with the big money clips buying out one year not two. I would like to see the game management and clock management improve.

Coming out of a long time out and not having three plays in the bag...the first play and then one play if the first works, and one play if it doesn't, is a sin. It looks bush league. If it was a bunch of seventh graders, it'd be one thing. I don't care how young they are this team is way too helter-skelter at times. That's on the coaching staff. If the coaching is helter skelter, unprepared, it shows up in the game. Hesitation and confusion are viruses which runs through a football team and kills it. You got to know before you hit a situation what you're going to do in that situation. Not mill around and try to find a perfect play during a time out.

You should figure out your two point plays out in OTAs and stick to them.

Every game you ought to have one play in the bank no one has seen this offense run in three seasons.

infantrycak
12-28-2008, 08:30 PM
I have a half full glass when it comes to the defensive line.. somehow It seems our coaching doesn't bring out the best in them (mario was the exception) ... I have no stats , just blind homerism ..esp when I see what the Titans did to no-names and somehow get those players to overachieve

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying anything about discussion in general even including Kubiak, but Kubiak is not leaving this year so that is wasted time. The real question is what changes he makes. I'd like to see Richard Smith and John Hoke gone. I have heard for seven years now how Hoke is a great DB coach while watching guys take 9 yard cushions on 3rd and 5 or catch slants all day long on our D. We are all guessing on who is making the calls on things, but I sit on the front row and have never ever seen Hoke emotional on a call or for the most part coaching the DBs. He should be toast and Richard Smith should be the tray carrying him to the rutti tutti fresh and frutti breakfast as far as I am concerned.

Addition by subtraction. Then add a couple more talent options on D. Then coach up the turnover and RZ problems and you have a team to be feared.

Wolf
12-28-2008, 08:31 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying anything about discussion in general even including Kubiak, but Kubiak is not leaving this year so that is wasted time. The real question is what changes he makes. I'd like to see Richard Smith and John Hoke gone. I have heard for seven years now how Hoke is a great DB coach while watching guys take 9 yard cushions on 3rd and 5 or catch slants all day long on our D.

agreed :goodpost:

J-Russ
12-28-2008, 08:46 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying anything about discussion in general even including Kubiak, but Kubiak is not leaving this year so that is wasted time.

That is what I always think of/say when I see these kind of threads.. but then again this is a discussion board, and the thread title state who wants Kubiak to be fired, and why?

Even though there is less then a 1% chance, IMO, that Kubiak get ****canned this year, it's still a topic people can discuss, no matter how futile it is because in the end Kubiak is coming back for his fourth season next year anyways.

Runner
12-28-2008, 09:17 PM
I think winning five of the last six to finish at .500 shows that Kubiak has instilled a winning football attitude. Every team in the NFL has a disappointing game like the Oakland game.

I'm going to take into consideration the team's bad stretches as well as the good.

Looking at the 3-7 start together with the 5-1 finish as well as last year's performance, I'd say Kubiak has instilled a non-losing attitude. Or non-winning attitude. Whatever.

====================

As far as disregarding the Oakland loss, I'd then have to disregard the Tennessee win since the Titans just "had a disappointing game".

====================

As for the topic of this thread, I'd be stunned if Kubiak is fired. He deserves one more year to show if he's learned anything and can get the team to turn the corner in reality that it has so many times turned in projections.

TexansFight
12-28-2008, 09:50 PM
I just want to make the playoffs damn it and I don't care who gets us there. My prediction for this team was that we would most likely go 9-7 and best case 10-6 and be in the playoff hunt till the end.

We ended up going 8-8. To me, that does not warrant firing Kubiak and I have SEVERAL major issues with him coaching wise. Ideally, I would love to see Marty or Cowher lead this team because they know how to win in the NFL.

Though we are 8-8 like last year, there is no question in my mind that this team is a much stronger team that is on the verge of becoming a legit playoff team. I really think Kubiak needs to drop the soft training camp and go after it hard like the Ravens coach did. I think that would definitely help us get off to a strong start and instill toughness and reduce turnovers hopefully. That would be a much better way to go about it than have "Protect the Ball" written on the practice shorts.

I definitely want Kubiak to critically assess his own performance and to really strive to improve the way we go about challenging calls. There is a disconnect in the system we have and it has hurt us. I also want him to either take over offensive playcalling in the redzone and/or make a commitment to not get so damn cute in the redzone and pound the ****ing ball in the endzone.

I don't get how an NFL coach can be so poor at clock management. Honestly, I think you have it or you don't in terms of strategy but nevertheless I want to see IMPROVEMENTS in these areas that he has DIRECT CONTROL over.

No doubt Dick needs to go and so does John Hoke. Get a real DC in here, draft a playmaker on defense (I don't care what position), and turn the dogs loose.

I am not sold on Kubiak but want him to succeed since he is the coach of the Texans. It concerns me that we have come out flat and/or gotten blown out like during the Minnesota game when we still had something to play for.

The mantra for 2009 must be playoffs or bust. I would like for us to get some veteran guys on defense with a mean, nasty streak and who have won before. I just wish the 2009 season would start next week rather than 9 months from now. Football season just goes by too quickly. 2009 - playoff year please.

cowbellm00
12-28-2008, 10:06 PM
Kubiak will be there next year and I'm glad for it. Each year he's done things I can't stand and other things I agreed with. But facts are facts. The Texans haven't hit a recession under this guy so there is no reason for him to go anywhere. He'd prove himself if he adresses some issues on the :d: side. We'll see next summer if he's smart or not. I have a good feeling he'll do the right thing for us.

:fans:

valleytexfan
12-29-2008, 01:15 AM
Kubiak>Capers. That's all...

SheTexan
12-29-2008, 05:44 AM
Not that my opinion matters that much, being female and all:), but, here goes anyway. Why throw 3 yrs down the tubes?! GK came to us a babe at the HC position. It's taken him 3 yrs to even start looking like a competant HC, so why toss him out now? Someone else will just benefit from our training grounds, cause GK will be a HC in this league for a long time to come. If he cleans up the defensive coaching situation and spends a little more time evaluating his own weaknesses, such as game planning and player preparation, then I can see a bright light at the end of the tunnel, and it looks like a SB berth in a couple of years. PLUS, a major factor here, the players support him, and for some reason, other than the Oakland game, they have shown a lot of fight, passion, and positive attitude during the latter part of the season. JMO, but, I think GK had more to do with that than anyone else. Our guys have got to FEEL IT, WANT IT with a passion, and GK seems to be working that magic! The pieces of the puzzle are all starting to fit nicely, and I like it!!!

Hervoyel
12-29-2008, 07:58 AM
Kubiak>Capers. That's all...

I agree. I think we all agree. Where some of us have issues though is whether or not that's enough. We know he's better than Capers but that's not exactly raising the bar very high when it comes to picking a head coach. Is he equal to the head coaches who consistently have their teams in the mix for the title? Is he going to be anytime soon? How long do we wait to see?

Unfortunately the only way to find out is to play this hand to it's conclusion. He'll be back next year and I think if he delivers another 8-8 season but the team shows more "improvement" then he'll be back for 2010 as well. By then it will be without any doubt win or we move on without you. McNair will take this as far as it goes as long as it goes forward without clearly stepping back.

Texan_Bill
12-29-2008, 08:31 AM
Marcus, while it may be a valid discussion to fire Kubiak, it's not a good one. First, I can respect Herv's opinion and he backs it up. BUT, there have been others where calling for Kubiak's head was an agenda.

In his first three seasons he has a taken a completely in shambles 2-14 team to 6-10, 8-8, 8-8. Eerily close to what Fisher did with the Oilers / Titans. All the while Kubiak has almost completely changed over the roster leaving very few original Texans on the squad.

Has he made mistakes? Sure, but I expect him to learn from his own mistakes as he asks his players to learn from theirs. This team is headed in the right direction.

The offense is pretty darn good. It's obvious that they need another running back who can pick up the tough yards and be more physical in the middle of the field or in the red zone - than Slaton is. With a couple of little tweaks, this offense can go from pretty good, to really good.

The defense needs work, obviously. It would have been interesting to see how the defense would have performed had Kubiak been able to get the DC he wanted. In any event, whether its Richard Smith or anyone else - it's a glaring weakness and the talent level just isn't there, yet.

PhilpW
12-29-2008, 08:43 AM
Let's play the "IF" game. We beat Indy and Oakland to finish 10-6 and still miss the playoffs, is this thread even born?

Kaiser Toro
12-29-2008, 08:51 AM
Kubiak does not need to be fired or feel the pressure to be fired, but he certainly has a ways to go to be a top HC in this league. Expectations should be that this was a bad year moving forward, however, as it stands now, for this franchise, it is the high water mark.

Certainly we can all agree that this year's Texans were different, but still not good enough. Changes need to be made to the staff, front office, personnel and in-game management in order for us to continue to progress. Status quo would suggest all is good in the hood and is something that this fan will be up in arms about. Kubiak is the figurehead, has the bull horn, good pulse of the team and has the owner's and GM's ear. The changes that need to be made, need to be made this year or else mediocrity will be the next level of purgatory that we will be mired in.

If there are no changes made, then there better not be any changes made to ticket prices. Why should the fans work harder if the Texans will not work harder?

cuppacoffee
12-29-2008, 09:46 AM
QUOTE=The1ApplePie;1086349]

"If this is as good as it gets, then give him the boot now."

:thinking:

"If he has real potential to be something more keep him."

:thinking:

"Pretty simple" :shocked.. Yes.....it is..

And therein lies the question.


:coffee:

Pantherstang84
12-29-2008, 09:50 AM
Let's play the "IF" game. We beat Indy and Oakland to finish 10-6 and still miss the playoffs, is this thread even born?

Yes. People like to blame the 0-4 start on Hurricane Ike. I prefer to blame it on the coaching staff for not having the team ready for the season.

I really am disappointed in this season. However, I am willing to give Kubes one more off season to make the much needed changes on the defensive coaching staff. As someone else already stated. If there are no changes, then I'm done with Kubiak.

Vinny
12-29-2008, 09:59 AM
long thread...haven't read it, but I'll weigh in. I wouldn't fire Kubiak but I'd hammer his defensive staff. We gave up nearly 400 points and were clueless and outcoached on many occassions....for two years in a row. Time for a change there.

infantrycak
12-29-2008, 10:01 AM
Yes. People like to blame the 0-4 start on Hurricane Ike. I prefer to blame it on the coaching staff for not having the team ready for the season.

How about for the first time in NFL history starting the season against 4 playoff teams?--with three games on the road.

How about your league best WR getting a case of the dropsies for the day (1st TN game)? For the record, AJ had 4 drops on the year. At least three and maybe all four came in one game.

How about your reserve QB trying to become superman?

Those were coaching issues?

I do want to see the defensive coaching staff gutted.

Wolf
12-29-2008, 10:06 AM
http://blogs.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2008/12/hey_texans_fans_2009s_the_year.html

solomon weighs in

Texans fans, get a hold of yourselves, and get over it.


The Raiders loss is far from the worst of the Texans many humiliations. (And all of them have been public, by the way.) So drop the anger.

Gary Kubiak shouldn't be fired over this or anything else he has done. The Texans are on the right track and it has a lot to do with Kubiak.

The guy can coach. Next year is the year you hold his feet to the fire in a "playoffs-or-else" mode. This year the team could have gotten there by fluke. Next year they are supposed to get there, period.

Remember this (as I've said before): Kubiak will be a much better coach in his fifth year than in his first, second or third. Will that fifth year on the job be in Houston?

We broke him, so do you want to let somebody else ride him?

Wolf
12-29-2008, 10:08 AM
:hmmm: from solomon's link

"On a lighter note, do you wish your daughter would have married a better defensive coordinator?" ... Detroit News columnist Rob Parker's question to Lions' head coach Rod Marinelli.

If a coach hires his son-in-law as defensive coordinator and that defense is the worst in the league in points and yards allowed, he has to expect people to call him out for nepotism.

If Richard Smith was Gary Kubiak's son-in-law, there is little doubt at some point I would have written how much better the Texans would have been had his daughter married Dick LeBeau or Rex Ryan.

ObsiWan
12-29-2008, 10:50 AM
http://blogs.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2008/12/hey_texans_fans_2009s_the_year.html

solomon weighs in
Remember this (as I've said before): Kubiak will be a much better coach in his fifth year than in his first, second or third. Will that fifth year on the job be in Houston?

We broke him, so do you want to let somebody else ride him?

Sounds just like what SheTexan has been telling us...

GP
12-29-2008, 10:58 AM
I want him fired. Reasons: poor playcalling and clock management when it counts, and this is something that he should have at least learned by now. Poor red zone playcalling. Lack of toughness throughout the team. Lack of an ability to finish games. He will cost us a couple games on trying to out-smart and out-cute our opponents. Our team's preparation is also lacking, especially when it comes to road games. I don't see a lot of these trends changing next year, so we will lose a couple games we should have won on paper due to these issues.

I acknowledge that our offense is improving, but having a great offense that stumbles in the red zone is a major issue. I also think we have the players on offense that make it so great...our receiving corps is tops in the league in talent, and we found a real diamond in Slaton. But I have to wonder how we would have faired without Slaton being the kind of player that he is.

If we don't make the playoffs next year, I think his job will be in jeopardy, unless ownership is okay with middling records.

Well-written post.

I agree with every bit of it.

Congratulations, Gary: You rescued a turd of a team and have reached 8-8 two years in-a-row. Next year? It's playoffs or you're done. Frankly, I am shocked that we pulled off 8-8, but as Jen said: How much of that was Slaton being Slaton? Without that guy...we don't finish 8-8.

If we retained Gibbs and had a better HC who can do all the intangibles that Jen is talking about...what would this team look like? If we had a legit HC, this team would have a ferocious defense and not the lukewarm crap we see from time-to-time. Kubiak is the reason behind Richard Smith.

I would fire Kubiak, but McNair isn't going to. He's pleased with us at least not being a complete embarrassment anymore like we were under Capers.

I think Kubiak would stay after next season, as well, even if we didn't go to the playoffs. I sense McNair thinks he has a long-term HC in Kubiak.

Wolf
12-29-2008, 11:03 AM
Congratulations, Gary: You rescued a turd of a team and have reached 8-8 two years in-a-row. Next year? It's playoffs or you're done. Frankly, I am shocked that we pulled off 8-8, but as Jen said: How much of that was Slaton being Slaton? Without that guy...we don't finish 8-8.

.

Well thank goodness for Slaton, esp when Green and Brown were supposed to carry the load this season, I don't know many teams that could carry on when losing their "potentially" starting 2 running backs.

(even though we all knew that Brown and Green were injury prone)

Runner
12-29-2008, 11:24 AM
Let's play the "IF" game. We beat Indy and Oakland to finish 10-6 and still miss the playoffs, is this thread even born?

If the Texans had won the Super Bowl this year we wouldn't be talking about this either. End of thread! :)

IlliniJen
12-29-2008, 11:54 AM
Well thank goodness for Slaton, esp when Green and Brown were supposed to carry the load this season, I don't know many teams that could carry on when losing their "potentially" starting 2 running backs.

(even though we all knew that Brown and Green were injury prone)

Yet another reason why I question Kubiak. I don't know how much of retaining BOTH Green and Brown were his decision versus the GM, but putting any money into either of them was a mistake. And I can see Brown coming back next year, despite his inability to stay healthy for any meaningful period of time...otherwise why did they IR him?

DiehardChris
12-29-2008, 12:04 PM
Yet another reason why I question Kubiak. I don't know how much of retaining BOTH Green and Brown were his decision versus the GM, but putting any money into either of them was a mistake. And I can see Brown coming back next year, despite his inability to stay healthy for any meaningful period of time...otherwise why did they IR him?

Yeah, they put Taylor on IR, then settled with him and he was gone. I feel like you do - if they were going to cut ties with him, they already would have.

Maybe Moats sticks, we sign a bruiser FA RB (or draft one) and THEN they decide to cut ties with Brown? Maybe they're just holding on to him until they're absolutely certain they have a better option. I dunno.

Pantherstang84
12-29-2008, 12:05 PM
Yet another reason why I question Kubiak. I don't know how much of retaining BOTH Green and Brown were his decision versus the GM, but putting any money into either of them was a mistake. And I can see Brown coming back next year, despite his inability to stay healthy for any meaningful period of time...otherwise why did they IR him?

They will probably reach a settlement with him in the off season. That's how these things usually play out. He could have asked for a settlement himself. Obviously, he was content watching the ball games from his couch while eating Doritos. He will not be on the roster next year. You can take that to the bank.

IlliniJen
12-29-2008, 12:21 PM
They will probably reach a settlement with him in the off season. That's how these things usually play out. He could have asked for a settlement himself. Obviously, he was content watching the ball games from his couch while eating Doritos. He will not be on the roster next year. You can take that to the bank.

Brown should not have been on the roster THIS year. If we were having issues with an unhealthy Green, why bring in a player that poses the SAME EXACT issues and injury risk as Green? Just seems like throwing good money after a double heaping helping of fail. It's decisions like this that really erode my faith in coaching and management because they make no sense and seem stupid at the time, and really stupid in retrospect.

This Moats guy is intriguing, but we've all seen some "intriguing" RBs for one or two games with the Texans and they never seem to pan out. I heartily agree with the majority that believes we need to draft or pick up in FA a bruising short-yardage RB to be the "bake" to Slaton's "shake." If LenWhale White cannot only be a starting RB in this league but also thrive because of Chris Johnson, I don't see why we can't have the same type of attack.

Pantherstang84
12-29-2008, 12:29 PM
Brown should not have been on the roster THIS year. If we were having issues with an unhealthy Green, why bring in a player that poses the SAME EXACT issues and injury risk as Green? Just seems like throwing good money after a double heaping helping of fail. It's decisions like this that really erode my faith in coaching and management because they make no sense and seem stupid at the time, and really stupid in retrospect.

This Moats guy is intriguing, but we've all seen some "intriguing" RBs for one or two games with the Texans and they never seem to pan out. I heartily agree with the majority that believes we need to draft or pick up in FA a bruising short-yardage RB to be the "bake" to Slaton's "shake." If LenWhale White cannot only be a starting RB in this league but also thrive because of Chris Johnson, I don't see why we can't have the same type of attack.

In retrospect I could have won the lottery a gazillion times and be retired now. If I had only known the lottery numbers before hand.

We can sit here and play coulda, woulda, shoulda all day. Look the Texans were thin @ RB and Brown as available. It's not like they signed the guy to a 10 year/ 75 million dollar deal.

They took a chance and it didn't work out. Happens every day in life.

We can have the same type of attack. We just need to go find the thumper to go with Slaton. However, we couldn't have had it this year. Didn't have anyone on the roster that could fill the roll.

Runner
12-29-2008, 12:36 PM
In retrospect I could have won the lottery a gazillion times and be retired now. If I had only known the lottery numbers before hand.

We can sit here and play coulda, woulda, shoulda all day. Look the Texans were thin @ RB and Brown as available. It's not like they signed the guy to a 10 year/ 75 million dollar deal.

They took a chance and it didn't work out. Happens every day in life.

We can have the same type of attack. We just need to go find the thumper to go with Slaton. However, we couldn't have had it this year. Didn't have anyone on the roster that could fill the roll.

I wouldn't equate Kubiak's coaching style with randomly guessing a series of numbers. I give him credit for making more informed decisions than that. Of course if it is all fate and random chance it is easier to avoid accountability...

ObsiWan
12-29-2008, 12:42 PM
Brown should not have been on the roster THIS year. If we were having issues with an unhealthy Green, why bring in a player that poses the SAME EXACT issues and injury risk as Green? Just seems like throwing good money after a double heaping helping of fail. It's decisions like this that really erode my faith in coaching and management because they make no sense and seem stupid at the time, and really stupid in retrospect.

This Moats guy is intriguing, but we've all seen some "intriguing" RBs for one or two games with the Texans and they never seem to pan out. I heartily agree with the majority that believes we need to draft or pick up in FA a bruising short-yardage RB to be the "bake" to Slaton's "shake." If LenWhale White cannot only be a starting RB in this league but also thrive because of Chris Johnson, I don't see why we can't have the same type of attack.

(a) he was relatively cheap.
(b) right or wrong, they like experience and Brown was an experienced RB.
(c) who else was available that was better (when healthy) and was as cheap?

Now, having posed those points - I agree, it was a mistake to sign Chris Brown. We were warned by folks from the Titans' msg board that he wouldn't last a year - not that our F/O listens to msg boards but if WE knew they should have too. Basically, it was a shot in the dark and an unspoken admission from the F/O that they knew Green wouldn't last all year.

Look, nobody bats 1.000 on all their signings. And we've hit on as many as we've missed on.
- Whenever you point to Chris Brown, I'll counter with Kevin Walter.
- You throw Ahman Green at me, I'll counter with Tim Bulman or DelJuan Robinson.
- If you bring up Jacque Reeves (some think the jury is still out on him), I'll point at Vonta Leach or Eugene Wilson or Kevin Bentley.

...nobody bats 1.000; but overall, I think they're not doing terribly badly.

Pantherstang84
12-29-2008, 12:50 PM
I wouldn't equate Kubiak's coaching style with randomly guessing a series of numbers. I give him credit for making more informed decisions than that. Of course if it is all fate and random chance it is easier to avoid accountability...

The only point I was trying to make is that it is easy to coach from a Lazyboy. The Chris Brown/Ahman Green situations were unfortunate. However, I didn't see any big name running backs knocking on the door wanting to play in Houston. With the cap situation the way it was, the Texans wouldn't have been able to afford the big names this year if they wanted to. I'm sure Evil Knievel thought the Caesar's Palace fountain jump was a stupid decision while he was in the hospital. He didn't think so before he attempted it though.

All I'm saying is that labeling Kubiak a stupid HC because of 1 or 2 bad free agent decisions is stupid in itself. Every team makes bad personnel decisions. It happens.

The fact of the matter is that the Texans are a good defensive coaching staff away from being an outstanding football team. Let's see how the DC situation plays out before we call Kubes a bad HC. If Richard Smith is still here at the start of OTA's then add me to the lynch mob roster.

Pantherstang84
12-29-2008, 12:51 PM
(a) he was relatively cheap.
(b) right or wrong, they like experience and Brown was an experienced RB.
(c) who else was available that was better (when healthy) and was as cheap?

Now, having posed those points - I agree, it was a mistake to sign Chris Brown. We were warned by folks from the Titans' msg board that he wouldn't last a year - not that our F/O listens to msg boards but if WE knew they should have too. Basically, it was a shot in the dark and an unspoken admission from the F/O that they knew Green wouldn't last all year.

Look, nobody bats 1.000 on all their signings. And we've hit on as many as we've missed on.
- Whenever you point to Chris Brown, I'll counter with Kevin Walter.
- You throw Ahman Green at me, I'll counter with Tim Bulman or DelJuan Robinson.
- If you bring up Jacque Reeves (some think the jury is still out on him), I'll point at Vonta Leach or Eugene Wilson or Kevin Bentley.

...nobody bats 1.000; but overall, I think they're not doing terribly badly.

Gotta rep ya for this post.

Runner
12-29-2008, 12:55 PM
My point is that giving Kubiak credit for everything that turns out well and excusing everything that turns out bad as "out of his control" is not an evaluation at all. It is more like a product advertisement.

IlliniJen
12-29-2008, 12:56 PM
(a) he was relatively cheap.
(b) right or wrong, they like experience and Brown was an experienced RB.
(c) who else was available that was better (when healthy) and was as cheap?

Now, having posed those points - I agree, it was a mistake to sign Chris Brown. We were warned by folks from the Titans' msg board that he wouldn't last a year - not that our F/O listens to msg boards but if WE knew they should have too. Basically, it was a shot in the dark and an unspoken admission from the F/O that they knew Green wouldn't last all year.

Look, nobody bats 1.000 on all their signings. And we've hit on as many as we've missed on.
- Whenever you point to Chris Brown, I'll counter with Kevin Walter.
- You throw Ahman Green at me, I'll counter with Tim Bulman or DelJuan Robinson.
- If you bring up Jacque Reeves (some think the jury is still out on him), I'll point at Vonta Leach or Eugene Wilson or Kevin Bentley.

...nobody bats 1.000; but overall, I think they're not doing terribly badly.

Look, I'm no football genius, but even your most random, run-of-the-mill fantasy football player can tell you that Chris Brown is a walking injury. I think taking a risk on one of our backups or practice squad guys would have been more acceptable than bringing in Brown.

And don't even get me started on Reeves. I honestly don't know how you make it as a CB in this league without turning your damn head to find the ball. All I can say is he seems to be the luckiest son of a ***** because he happens on breaking up passes by some miracle, because lord knows, it's not because he knows where the ball is. I'm sure he probably finds $20 bills lying on the ground all the time and is hit on by beautiful twins with big boobs everywhere he goes.

DiehardChris
12-29-2008, 01:01 PM
For me, it's not so much that we made a bad signing with Chris Brown... it's that we followed a bad signing of Ahman Green with a bad signing of Chris Brown.

And I don't think you can compare Green with DelJuan and Bulman. Green was signed to be the starter. Bulman and DelJuan are depth.

Texecutioner
12-29-2008, 01:13 PM
Look, I'm no football genius, but even your most random, run-of-the-mill fantasy football player can tell you that Chris Brown is a walking injury. I think taking a risk on one of our backups or practice squad guys would have been more acceptable than bringing in Brown.

And don't even get me started on Reeves. I honestly don't know how you make it as a CB in this league without turning your damn head to find the ball. All I can say is he seems to be the luckiest son of a ***** because he happens on breaking up passes by some miracle, because lord knows, it's not because he knows where the ball is. I'm sure he probably finds $20 bills lying on the ground all the time and is hit on by beautiful twins with big boobs everywhere he goes.

Excellent points Illijen and I totally agree. Kubes has been very arrogant with his Shanahan type of syndrome thinking he could plug any ole back in this system and do well. The Texans clearly suffered from that ego of thinking he could just get anyone out there. I've said since last season that Domanick Davis/Williams was a big reason why the Texans went 7-9 under Capers because the running game helped out so much. Kubiak let us go a whole two years without a RB and gambled on Green, Lundi, and Dayne, and then Brown. For all we know Slaton could have been average as well, because there wasn't a large consensus that Slaton would be a great back. He had the potential, but it wasn't never a lock in most people's eyes.

At the end of the day Kubiak is in his 3rd season and the team has still not even been over 500. The Texans are right where they were in Capers third season. A mediocre team where everyone feels they are getting better. Maybe they are and maybe they won't. That is exactly what 8-8 describes realistically.

There have been a ton of teams that have been turned around and had winning seasons since Kubiak was hired here, so this whole thing about it taking 5 to 6 years to turn a team around is a laugh. Since Kubiak has been hired, The Jets, Saints, Titans, falcons, Panthers, Dolphins, and a few other teams here and there have been it to the playoffs at least once. We still have yet to get over 500. Mangini was hired the same year that Kubiak was and Mangini has at least made it to the playoffs once, and was a hair close to making it again this season and he is fired.

The only argument Kubiak supporters really keep trying to make is that he is turning this team around. Well, they still haven't had a winning season, so you guys can be patient all you want and expect greatness out of an overatted offensive coordinator, but I've seen enough in Kubiak to know that he isn't a great coach. He is an average one that can run a team, but he hasn't shown that he can lead one. The Texans still play inconsistently and the Raiders game was a perfect example of that. Good coaches break their teams out of this kind of stuff. This is the NFL and coaches are expected to produce. Kubiak is just lucky that he plays for an owner where winning isn't everything to him. Mcnair is okay with a season like this, so he won't do anything. As long as the Texans aren't being laughed at tremedously Mcnair is happy and fine as long as the tailgaters are out there and tickets are being sold and he still has fans saying the same classic line which is "Next year is our year".

Mailman
12-29-2008, 01:17 PM
Look, I'm no football genius, but even your most random, run-of-the-mill fantasy football player can tell you that Chris Brown is a walking injury. I think taking a risk on one of our backups or practice squad guys would have been more acceptable than bringing in Brown.

And they can also tell you that he's a productive runner when he plays. I know, he helped me dominate my league a few years back. Moreover, many of us fantasy players are familiar enough with Ryan Moats that we don't refer to him as "that Moats guy." Anyone who had Westbrook (and even those who didn't) a few years back knew his name.

And don't even get me started on Reeves. I honestly don't know how you make it as a CB in this league without turning your damn head to find the ball. All I can say is he seems to be the luckiest son of a ***** because he happens on breaking up passes by some miracle, because lord knows, it's not because he knows where the ball is. I'm sure he probably finds $20 bills lying on the ground all the time and is hit on by beautiful twins with big boobs everywhere he goes.

Reeves is solid. One day you pinata punchers will understand that you're bashing the guy because he doesn't possess that final element (ball-hawking skills) that would make him an elite CB talent. The guy has the speed and quickness to be a solid player if the defensive line gets consistent pressure.

Kaiser Toro
12-29-2008, 01:33 PM
My point is that giving Kubiak credit for everything that turns out well and excusing everything that turns out bad as "out of his control" is not an evaluation at all. It is more like a product advertisement.

I will take two. Do they come in Battle Red?

Runner
12-29-2008, 01:49 PM
I will take two. Do they come in Battle Red?

I'm sorry sir. We are out of the red pajama bottoms. Would you like just the top?

PHAROAH
12-29-2008, 02:01 PM
No way he is doing a great job we need to get rid of the Def. Coordinator.

ObsiWan
12-29-2008, 02:18 PM
Look, I'm no football genius, but even your most random, run-of-the-mill fantasy football player can tell you that Chris Brown is a walking injury. I think taking a risk on one of our backups or practice squad guys would have been more acceptable than bringing in Brown.

And don't even get me started on Reeves. I honestly don't know how you make it as a CB in this league without turning your damn head to find the ball. All I can say is he seems to be the luckiest son of a ***** because he happens on breaking up passes by some miracle, because lord knows, it's not because he knows where the ball is. I'm sure he probably finds $20 bills lying on the ground all the time and is hit on by beautiful twins with big boobs everywhere he goes.

Hell, I need to follow him around myself.

Thorn
12-29-2008, 02:19 PM
On ESPN.com Kubes is in 10th place in the voting for Coach approval, right behind Jeff Fisher.

ObsiWan
12-29-2008, 02:48 PM
My point is that giving Kubiak credit for everything that turns out well and excusing everything that turns out bad as "out of his control" is not an evaluation at all. It is more like a product advertisement.

And my point is, when folks point out the bad signings (I'm surprised no one mentioned R.Colvin - but since we cut him, maybe he doesn't really count) as reasons Smithiak needs to be fired, I can point at just as many diamonds in the rough and bargain basement guys that have been a big part of pulling this team out of suckatude.

Bad signings -
A. Green - good when healthy, just never healthy
C. Brown - see above
J. Reeves (although, given we couldn't afford a top tier guy, and we knew D-Rob was going to be out until at least Halloween, I don't know what else could have been done.)
R. Colvin - didn't fit into our scheme - whatever it might be (I'll go ahead and count him since we paid him a signing bonus - didn't we?)

Good signings
V. Leach - stud FB
K. Walter - solid #2
A. Davis - stepped up big when AJ went down (and to think I almost forgot him)
T. Bulman - gotta love his work ethic and didn't he get the first non-Mario sack from the DL?
D. Robinson (DE) - diamond in the rough. Looks to be a better DT than TJ
E. Wilson - solid FS.
N. Ferguson - probably the most sure tackler on the team this side of DeMeco.
E. Cochran - was coming on real strong until injured
E. Salaam (he was better than what we had - and is still a good guy to spot rest Duane Brown)
A. Maddox - another solid DL guy (I hate he got cut this year)

None of those guys broke the bank and all are solid contributors.
Now if we can upgrade, anywhere, we should. No question.

But Smithiak has assembled a damned good squad without wasting the kind of money that the Raiders or Cowboys or 49ers have over the past 3 years. So to point out a couple of high profile misses without acknowledging all the good finds isn't really fair either.
Its more like having an agenda.
:)

Runner
12-29-2008, 03:30 PM
My point is that giving Kubiak credit for everything that turns out well and excusing everything that turns out bad as "out of his control" is not an evaluation at all. It is more like a product advertisement.

And my point is, when folks point out the bad signings (I'm surprised no one mentioned R.Colvin - but since we cut him, maybe he doesn't really count) as reasons Smithiak needs to be fired, I can point at just as many diamonds in the rough and bargain basement guys that have been a big part of pulling this team out of suckatude.

....

But Smithiak has assembled a damned good squad without wasting the kind of money that the Raiders or Cowboys or 49ers have over the past 3 years. So to point out a couple of high profile misses without acknowledging all the good finds isn't really fair either.
Its more like having an agenda.
:)

I've already posted that I don't think Kubiak should be fired, so that's not my agenda. I just think he's an average coach. Some subjective examples:

Good signings and bad signings have about evened out - average. Even if good signings outweigh bad signings, something else (coaching) counteracted that improvement - still average. Note: I'm not going to accept Hurricane Ike as the reason they lost to the Raiders. :)

Kubiak built a team that can pile up the yards - but can't score effectively - average.

Kubiak built a great offense - and an equally bad defense - average.

Kubiak motivates his players well - but doesn't have them ready to play several times by his own admission - average.

For all the good things Kubiak has done, he has had misses. That is why the team is 8-8. I don't think it is a "damn good squad". I think they are damned average. Sure they made some talent improvements this year; its just that those improvements were offset by lapses, many of them mental.

The Texas and Kubiak own the improvements as well as the lapses.

Texecutioner
12-29-2008, 05:21 PM
I've already posted that I don't think Kubiak should be fired, so that's not my agenda. I just think he's an average coach. Some subjective examples:

Good signings and bad signings have about evened out - average. Even if good signings outweigh bad signings, something else (coaching) counteracted that improvement - still average. Note: I'm not going to accept Hurricane Ike as the reason they lost to the Raiders. :)

Kubiak built a team that can pile up the yards - but can't score effectively - average.

Kubiak built a great offense - and an equally bad defense - average.

Kubiak motivates his players well - but doesn't have them ready to play several times by his own admission - average.

For all the good things Kubiak has done, he has had misses. That is why the team is 8-8. I don't think it is a "damn good squad". I think they are damned average. Sure they made some talent improvements this year; its just that those improvements were offset by lapses, many of them mental.

The Texas and Kubiak own the improvements as well as the lapses.

Pretty good way to sum it up.

Double Barrel
12-29-2008, 05:25 PM
I have one question before I cast my "yay" or "nay" in support of Kubiak:

Will Bill Parcells be available next year for our GM position? :thinking:

Marcus
12-29-2008, 05:35 PM
I have one question before I cast my "yay" or "nay" in support of Kubiak:

Will Bill Parcells be available next year for our GM position? :thinking:

Was that tongue and cheek? Parcells wouldn't take it even if it were.

Double Barrel
12-29-2008, 05:50 PM
Was that tongue and cheek? Parcells wouldn't take it even if it were.

yeah, definitely tongue in cheek (as evidenced by my ;))

I'm just impressed that a 1-15 team can win their division the next season. The best turnaround we've seen is a four win difference (i.e. 2-14 to 6-10), and the best record we've seen is 8-8 while Miami is sporting an 11-5 record this season.

I guess the debate about how much difference can the front office make is officially over. Obviously, it can make a HUGE difference.

That being said, my vote is to keep Kubiak, simply because I don't want another rebuilding process at this point.

I do agree with many of the Kubiak critics and have my own reservations about him as a HC, but I also recognize the huge difference he's made in our offense, as well.

I see both sides of the debate, but the main argument is, to me, about having to endure another rebuilding...unless Mr. Parcells is available, of course. :shades:

p.s. He needs to upgrade his DC, though!

Buffi2
12-29-2008, 05:51 PM
Nah, we don't fire him this year. With all of his mistakes and miscues, he has done some very good things. I think the jury is still out on him being good/great/ok/average/ until after next year. Then we can revisit this conversation.

GP
12-29-2008, 08:15 PM
IlliniJen knows football, that's what I'm learning from this thread.

She's hitting the nail on the head with every post. The Chris Brown signing was like Altoids: Curiously Strong. Gambling on Steve Slaton was Kubiak's last quarter at a Vegas slot machine, and he hit the jackpot.

The only bad part? He's an injury away from not having a RB again. Which makes Moats or a free agent or a draft pick at RB (again) very important.

8-8 looks great, considering what happened, but this offense without a RB will turn an 8-8 team into a Capers-type of 4-12 or 3-13 team in a hurry.

Nobody needs to think that 8-8 and the multiple winning streaks this season will mean playoffs next year. If Kubiak and Rick Smith make another bobble in judgment on RB this offseason, it'll mean potential headaches galore next season if Slaton misses action.

Defenses will be gunning for Slaton next year. You can bank on it.

Kubiak saved his own bacon with Slaton. He's gotta' do it again. Hope he chooses the right slot machine to put that quarter in...

Lucky
12-29-2008, 08:31 PM
My point is that giving Kubiak credit for everything that turns out well and excusing everything that turns out bad as "out of his control" is not an evaluation at all. It is more like a product advertisement.
The "product" at its molecular level.

http://www.3dchem.com/imagesofmolecules/Teflon.jpg

I couldn't give Runner rep for any of his posts in this thread. So I gave some to Texecutioner in the hope that some rep reaches Runner through osmosis.

Runner
12-29-2008, 09:23 PM
The "product" at its molecular level.

http://www.3dchem.com/imagesofmolecules/Teflon.jpg

I couldn't give Runner rep for any of his posts in this thread. So I gave some to Texecutioner in the hope that some rep reaches Runner through osmosis.


That's ironic, I couldn't rep you either. I'll rep Texecutioner as well and see what happens. It's his lucky day.

Wolf
12-29-2008, 10:47 PM
Reeves is solid. One day you pinata punchers will understand that you're bashing the guy because he doesn't possess that final element (ball-hawking skills) that would make him an elite CB talent. The guy has the speed and quickness to be a solid player if the defensive line gets consistent pressure.



we are paying him 4 mil a year (or bob mcnair)
average salaries
5. Cornerback | $1,193,666

I would expect an above average cb with head turning skills with that kind of jingle in his pocket
unless the money in his pocket is hurting his ability to look for the ball
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/gallery/featured/GAL1141926/5/11/index.htm

and esp on a CB that is in and out of the lineup like a Cincinnati Bengal at the County Jail

infantrycak
12-29-2008, 10:59 PM
we are paying him 4 mil a year (or bob mcnair)
average salaries
5. Cornerback | $1,193,666

I would expect an above average cb with head turning skills with that kind of jingle in his pocket
unless the money in his pocket is hurting his ability to look for the ball
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/gallery/featured/GAL1141926/5/11/index.htm

and esp on a CB that is in and out of the lineup like a Cincinnati Bengal at the County Jail

An average salary in the NFL has to be examined in a different light than someone obtained as a FA. That includes every league minimum guy riding the pine on an undrafted contract. Among FA CB's he is not highly paid--middling, but not high at all. We got rid of Glenn four years ago as an aging vet when he was going to get 66% more per year.

By the way, he only counted $1.8 mil on the cap this year.

Wolf
12-29-2008, 11:08 PM
An average salary in the NFL has to be examined in a different light than someone obtained as a FA. That includes every league minimum guy riding the pine on an undrafted contract. Among FA CB's he is not highly paid--middling, but not high at all. We got rid of Glenn four years ago as an aging vet when he was going to get 66% more per year.

By the way, he only counted $1.8 mil on the cap this year.

good post, I was in my knee-jerk mode
:smiliedance:

Grams
12-30-2008, 06:18 AM
I've already posted that I don't think Kubiak should be fired, so that's not my agenda. I just think he's an average coach. Some subjective examples:

Good signings and bad signings have about evened out - average. Even if good signings outweigh bad signings, something else (coaching) counteracted that improvement - still average. Note: I'm not going to accept Hurricane Ike as the reason they lost to the Raiders. :)

Kubiak built a team that can pile up the yards - but can't score effectively - average.

Kubiak built a great offense - and an equally bad defense - average.

Kubiak motivates his players well - but doesn't have them ready to play several times by his own admission - average.

For all the good things Kubiak has done, he has had misses. That is why the team is 8-8. I don't think it is a "damn good squad". I think they are damned average. Sure they made some talent improvements this year; its just that those improvements were offset by lapses, many of them mental.

The Texas and Kubiak own the improvements as well as the lapses.

They seemed to score pretty good this Sunday. Maybe with Shanny calling plays this will change some and Kubiak can spent his time managing the game better.

He is going to say it is his fault if the team is not ready - even if it is not his fault. With youger guys one has to learn how to get up for the next game and not let the "high" from the previous weeks win make then think they can beat anybody.

I do not think he is perfect or an elite coach - not yet. I think he can become one in the next year or two. He has made mistakes and mental errors, but all coaches have those also. The key to every mistake is to learn from them and not make the same mistake twice.

I saw a lot of improvement this year - not necessarily in the W column but in the play and the intensity of the players out there. A team that did not pack it in or quit or fold when out of the playoffs.

A team that came in and played hard the last game and helped make it possible for the Eagles to have a real reason to crush the Cowgirls.

Tedc
12-30-2008, 06:45 AM
I have said it from the beginning: Kubes needs to get his nose out of the plays and let Shanny Jr. call the game.

As head coach he needs to manage the clock, time outs, refs, and players.

ObsiWan
12-30-2008, 08:42 AM
I have said it from the beginning: Kubes needs to get his nose out of the plays and let Shanny Jr. call the game.

As head coach he needs to manage the clock, time outs, refs, and players.

The SportsRadio 610 guys asked Kubiak about that during yesterday's Kubiak show. He wouldn't come right out and say it, but I think we'll see more of him letting Kyle call the plays next year and him being more head coach and less defensive coordinator. Kubiak even admitted that playcalling - when he was immersed in it - sometimes got personal and the other phases of being a head coach suffered for it. I think we just saw another step in the Kubiak maturation process.

As someone who had to turn over a previous position in order to move up, I know how hard it is to let go of something you've been doing for a good, long while and was pretty good at doing and turn it over to a successor; moving out of one's comfort zone ain't easy. It was hard not to step in - still is sometimes - because you see things that should be done and know how you'd do them. I still have to remind myself "that's not your job anymore, let him handle it". Its a control freak thing.

GP
12-30-2008, 09:17 AM
The SportsRadio 610 guys asked Kubiak about that during yesterday's Kubiak show. He wouldn't come right out and say it, but I think we'll see more of him letting Kyle call the plays next year and him being more head coach and less defensive coordinator. Kubiak even admitted that playcalling - when he was immersed in it - sometimes got personal and the other phases of being a head coach suffered for it. I think we just saw another step in the Kubiak maturation process.

As someone who had to turn over a previous position in order to move up, I know how hard it is to let go of something you've been doing for a good, long while and was pretty good at doing and turn it over to a successor; moving out of one's comfort zone ain't easy. It was hard not to step in - still is sometimes - because you see things that should be done and know how you'd do them. I still have to remind myself "that's not your job anymore, let him handle it". Its a control freak thing.

I think that's exactly what it is with Gary. You summed it up perfectly.

He has been calling the plays for so long, and he's having a hard time letting it go. It's natural. But if he has come right out and stated that Kyle called all the plays, you can bet that there has been a realization by Gary that he knows he's going to have to trust Kyle with that role.

Makes you wonder what might have been, had Gary chosen at the start of the season to let Kyle do what he was hired to do. It must have been a constant struggle between them all season, with the last game being the "Alright, here ya' go. You call the shots, Kyle" sort of deal.

So now we have closure on offense. What the crap has been going on in the defense? What's the story behind our two-faced defensive playcalling? There's an issue there: On our winning streak, we were aggressive...at Oakland it looked like it had in the past. And then vs. Bears it was back to being aggressive again.

HOU-TEX
12-30-2008, 09:35 AM
Kinda off-topic, but I was under the assumption Gibbs had signed a two year contract. Kubiak said his contract was up in Febuary. WTF is up with that?

The Oline is NOT finished yet, Gibbs! Go home and get your rest, then get your ass back here to re-sign another deal. Dadgummit!!

ObsiWan
12-30-2008, 09:44 AM
Kinda off-topic, but I was under the assumption Gibbs had signed a two year contract. Kubiak said his contract was up in Febuary. WTF is up with that?

The Oline is NOT finished yet, Gibbs! Go home and get your rest, then get your ass back here to re-sign another deal. Dadgummit!!

Yeah, I heard that too. I got a feeling the Angry Cherokee will be back for at least one more year. I think it was Rhodes that Kubiak said was under contract - as a consultant - for two years.

ubecool454
12-30-2008, 09:59 AM
Here's your thread to get it all out on the head coach. Keep this thread about Kubiak and Kubiak only.

This is one silly thread and I can't believe it has gone this long:thinking:

Texan_Bill
12-30-2008, 10:22 AM
Kinda off-topic, but I was under the assumption Gibbs had signed a two year contract. Kubiak said his contract was up in Febuary. WTF is up with that?

The Oline is NOT finished yet, Gibbs! Go home and get your rest, then get your ass back here to re-sign another deal. Dadgummit!!

Hell, I'll even pitch in on the extra oxygen tanks and IV's if I have to.

HOU-TEX
12-30-2008, 10:38 AM
Hell, I'll even pitch in on the extra oxygen tanks and IV's if I have to.

I'd pitch in on the purchase of a pimped out golf cart he could truck around in during camps.

Either way, the sawed-off little firecracker needs to finish his job. :)

threetoedpete
12-30-2008, 10:46 AM
I have one question before I cast my "yay" or "nay" in support of Kubiak:

Will Bill Parcells be available next year for our GM position? :thinking:

If the team sells he's due to get a twelve million dollar buy out. My guess....this team is his baby. He's built it literally from scratch. Twelve million or not....Parcells has money. I doubt he walks away and pitches his baby onto the side walk in the rain watchin other people stomp it to death.

I don't think he could stand that. Not even for 12 mill.

If I'm a gazillion heir buying a franchise, I give the guy a very small chunk of the team for him to stay.

But ,...........he does have the clause in the contract.

threetoedpete
12-30-2008, 10:57 AM
Just thought of something else. Highly unlikely that Parcells comes here....but the irony of it would be we would then have a 3-4 GM picking players for a four three WCO GURU. The exact opposite of what we had when we started with Capers and Casserly. Come full circle as it were on the road to mediocrity.

Some might hunger for that I suppose.

IlliniJen
12-30-2008, 12:13 PM
The SportsRadio 610 guys asked Kubiak about that during yesterday's Kubiak show. He wouldn't come right out and say it, but I think we'll see more of him letting Kyle call the plays next year and him being more head coach and less defensive coordinator. Kubiak even admitted that playcalling - when he was immersed in it - sometimes got personal and the other phases of being a head coach suffered for it. I think we just saw another step in the Kubiak maturation process.

As someone who had to turn over a previous position in order to move up, I know how hard it is to let go of something you've been doing for a good, long while and was pretty good at doing and turn it over to a successor; moving out of one's comfort zone ain't easy. It was hard not to step in - still is sometimes - because you see things that should be done and know how you'd do them. I still have to remind myself "that's not your job anymore, let him handle it". Its a control freak thing.

I hope it's true that they give Mini Shanny the offense more next season because I have to say I was impressed with the way the offense moved the ball AND CONVERTED IN THE RZ in that last game.

If Kubes can relent on feeling the need to be the OC during games, then perhaps he is learning and can work on the things a HC is responsible for, like preparation and making good in-game decisions and clock management.

I still want him fired, but I'm relenting a little. :whip:

I will be less grumbly going into next season if we seek out a DC from outside the organization. I'm not at all convinced that promoting Bush is a good idea and I really believe we need new blood and a new attitude on the defensive coaching side. But only three folks were fired today, so I'm getting that sinking feeling that we're going to promote from within. Sigh.

Texecutioner
12-30-2008, 12:35 PM
I hope it's true that they give Mini Shanny the offense more next season because I have to say I was impressed with the way the offense moved the ball AND CONVERTED IN THE RZ in that last game.

If Kubes can relent on feeling the need to be the OC during games, then perhaps he is learning and can work on the things a HC is responsible for, like preparation and making good in-game decisions and clock management.

I still want him fired, but I'm relenting a little. :whip:

I will be less grumbly going into next season if we seek out a DC from outside the organization. I'm not at all convinced that promoting Bush is a good idea and I really believe we need new blood and a new attitude on the defensive coaching side. But only three folks were fired today, so I'm getting that sinking feeling that we're going to promote from within. Sigh.

Agreed. Another good post from you Illiijen. You're on a roll. If only we could carry this onto the political threads. :)

IlliniJen
12-30-2008, 01:31 PM
Agreed. Another good post from you Illiijen. You're on a roll. If only we could carry this onto the political threads. :)

You just need to come to the dark side of godless progressiveness.

Marcus
12-30-2008, 02:45 PM
This is one silly thread and I can't believe it has gone this long:thinking:

I don't think it's been a silly one at all, and I would say that even if I hadn't created it. Thsi thread was one of those (or at least I hadn't intended it to be) typical knee-jerk "Fire Kubiak" threads that we all expect everytime the team loses. I created it after the season was over, and more importantly, after they WON.

I wanted feedback about just how everyone felt about Kubiak himself . . . those conditions.

And it's been a fantastic read. Thanks everyone for particapating.

Thorn
12-30-2008, 02:48 PM
Thanks everyone for particapating.

I usually don't particapate in public.

Marcus
12-30-2008, 02:53 PM
I usually don't particapate in public.

:hide: Jeeez, can't spell worth a dang. :)

Thorn
12-30-2008, 03:04 PM
:hide: Jeeez, can't spell worth a dang. :)

I'm just as bad. But I couldn't leave that one alone. LOL

No offense intended.