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View Full Version : TE Not a Factor for The Texans?


hou059
01-06-2005, 12:35 PM
Billy Miller is so non existant in this offense, it's not funny. He gets no love and I wonder why they resigned him. They have their blocking back in Bruener so I thought that free Miller up to be more of a receiving threat this past off-season but nope! and if it weren't for Joppru being hurt all the damn time, Miller I don't think would see have the minutes he see now! Why don't the Texans involve him more? I mean he isn't even the safety valve when Carr needs to dump it off, Domanick Davis is!

Vinny
01-06-2005, 12:47 PM
Why don't the Texans involve him more?Because he is a miserable blocker and isn't any better in pass patterns than Armstrong. Miller has marginal NFL talent. The Texans wanted to use two TE schemes like the Patriots and Colts do but we will have to wait due to injuries and player limitations.

hou059
01-06-2005, 01:04 PM
so why did the Texans extend his contract? They really ought to seek another FA and stop letting Miller simply hold a spot. That TE position can do wonders for our offense.

Vinny
01-06-2005, 01:05 PM
A little talent is better than air. I think they rewarded Miller for his hard work in year two since he was a hard worker and an overachiever. He didn't break the bank and he is a good clubhouse guy. That gave the Texans a chance to throw the carrot out to the others. We likely pursue a legit TE this off-season in one manner or another. It's one of the things I feel I am fairly sure about.

El Tejano
01-06-2005, 01:40 PM
I think because of Miller's non productive play and Joppru's injury bugged career so far, we will have to look for another TE in FA or the draft. Any idea who is out there in FA? I know Alge Crumpler was signed by the Falcons a long time ago so there went my wish list for TEs.

noxiousdog
01-06-2005, 01:43 PM
A little talent is better than air. I think they rewarded Miller for his hard work in year two since he was a hard worker and an overachiever. He didn't break the bank and he is a good clubhouse guy. That gave the Texans a chance to throw the carrot out to the others. We likely pursue a legit TE this off-season in one manner or another. It's one of the things I feel I am fairly sure about.

I agree 100%. In fact, if Joppru doesn't look like he's going to be a NFL player (only the doctors can tell you that), I wouldn't be surprised in the least for the Texans to use a first day pick on a TE.

They need a real dual threat guy. One that can catch and block.

hou059
01-06-2005, 01:46 PM
Kevin Everette or maybe the kid out of Stanford

El Tejano
01-06-2005, 01:48 PM
Who does Kevin Everette play for?

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
01-06-2005, 02:02 PM
U of Miami

hou059
01-06-2005, 02:22 PM
Yeah he is a Hurricane. I was just throwing a couple names out there. The TE class after Heath Miller are considered pretty much the same IMO. But Everette is a big body, muck like Troupe in Tennessee.

trijcomm
01-06-2005, 08:12 PM
:loser Don't blame Miller for non-production. Carr has fallen in love with Davis so he outlets to him when he's in trouble. And when he goes downfield, he's looking for the WRs rather than Miller. When Andre came in, Miller's production went down. And that's not a bad thing.

Wolf
01-06-2005, 09:38 PM
here is some more on the subject
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=5610

chuckm
01-06-2005, 09:44 PM
I know hindsight is 20-20 but I can still remember when they announced "the Texans pick Tight End" and me thinking yessssssssssss Jason Witten ..........

THE_HONKEY_TONK_KID
01-06-2005, 10:19 PM
I wonder why we didn't use Billy Miller more. Not just as a TE, but something like the Patriots do with Graham. They put him as a WR in the slot and throw it to him on short passing yards just on a little curl. Just doing a simple thing like that makes the defense aware that he is on the feild and opens up for things for some of our other guys.

Juppro was one of those guys who had extreme talent when we picked him, but was labeled as a "project". With his injurys, I wonder how much of a project he still is, and how rusty he is going to be when and if he ever plays. I am for getting a TE in the draft, but not with the 1st pick, maybe not even the 2nd. Jason Witten was taken in the 3rd and Chris Cooley came from the 4th so there is talent at TE in later rounds. Maybe if we get a guy and start him and make him our primary TE and thing bring Joppru along we could use a lot of 2 TE sets and see some great results out of them.

trijcomm
01-06-2005, 10:26 PM
We didn't use Miller on the curl because we used Johnson so much on the quick flare. As far as a TE goes, if you aren't going to use them, why draft one? We know Miller has the talent, but if the ball is going to Davis all the time, then you could have Antonio Gates or Todd Heap out there and he won't produce.

Vinny
01-07-2005, 02:12 PM
We didn't use Miller on the curl because we used Johnson so much on the quick flare. As far as a TE goes, if you aren't going to use them, why draft one? I guess you are a new fan. We installed a two-TE package we practiced all pre-season and never used it due to Joppru's injury and our talent limitations. You cannot run heavy TE offense with Billy Miller or Mark Breunner as your primary TE's. Breunner was brought here as a secondary blocking TD and Miller was a check down on an expansion team with no real WR or RB talent....but if we cut him he would have a hard time getting PT anywhere in the NFL.

We know Miller has the talent, but if the ball is going to Davis all the time, then you could have Antonio Gates or Todd Heap out there and he won't produce. "We" don't know that. Myself, I think he has marginal NFL talent.

shinerbock_girl
01-07-2005, 03:16 PM
I know hindsight is 20-20 but I can still remember when they announced "the Texans pick Tight End" and me thinking yessssssssssss Jason Witten ..........

I love the way Witten plays, but Parcells would die first before he let him go...But what an assest he'd be for us....

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 04:51 PM
I guess you are a new fan. We installed a two-TE package we practiced all pre-season and never used it due to Joppru's injury and our talent limitations. You cannot run heavy TE offense with Billy Miller or Mark Breunner as your primary TE's. Breunner was brought here as a secondary blocking TD and Miller was a check down on an expansion team with no real WR or RB talent....but if we cut him he would have a hard time getting PT anywhere in the NFL.

"We" don't know that. Myself, I think he has marginal NFL talent.

First of all, you are talking about something that has never been done for the very reason you brought up, so it's all pie-in-the-sky for now. As for Miller, he does have some talent. Marginal, maybe, but he does have some potential. He showed that in Year #1. As far as how that talent should be currently used with Davis around, I can't say if it would be an improvement to divert more passes to him or not.

Vinny
01-07-2005, 05:01 PM
First of all, you are talking about something that has never been done for the very reason you brought up, so it's all pie-in-the-sky for now. As for Miller, he does have some talent. Marginal, maybe, but he does have some potential. He showed that in Year #1. As far as how that talent should be currently used with Davis around, I can't say if it would be an improvement to divert more passes to him or not.The team was actually practicing these formations. They would not be taking time to do this if they were not serious about incorporating TE sets into the offense. Your point was we would not use one anyway. My point is that we intended to. This isn't fabricated pie in the sky babbling.

On Miller, you agree that he has marginal value, but most people feel he has tapped his potential. Next year he is a 7 year veteran. His game has reached its apex.

Blake
01-10-2005, 11:41 AM
Im not sure how much longer the Texans plan on waiting for Joppru, but the non-existance of a all around TE is hurting us badly. I am as eager as any fan to see Bennie return. I am hoping he comes around this year and gives the O a legitimate TE threat.

But with the way the TE is killing teams these days, I dont know how long you can hold off.

If you wait to see if BJ is ready, you miss out on FA, and rookie TE. But if you pick one up and BJ can play, you have 2 threats at TE.

JMO

aj.
01-10-2005, 11:53 AM
Im not sure how much longer the Texans plan on waiting for Joppru,If he can't get on the field this season, he's a goner.

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the Texans draft another TE. If they don't, that will tell me that they are confident in Joppru's recovery. I don't see them spending $$$ to get a "name" FA TE like last year.

hou059
01-10-2005, 12:14 PM
how much cash have they invested in BJ? I would have to think as well he is gone after this season he is unable to play! That's if he can remember how to play. Damn, two seasons in a row and he is hurting our offense. I think the staff should seriously consider looking at a TE in this years draft because unless Jopru comes back then we are left with Miller and Bruener yet again. Hardly a recieving threat.

trijcomm
01-10-2005, 12:17 PM
If he can't get on the field this season, he's a goner.

Using that logic, Hollings has basically seen his last day in a Texans uniform.

Blake
01-10-2005, 12:19 PM
The scary thing is, I dont see any great all around TE's in the draft. Even Heath Miller is more of a catching TE than blocking. I really hope BJ can come back...

aj.
01-10-2005, 12:45 PM
Neither Miller or Alex Smith are known for their blocking ability. If one of those guys is capable of being the next Tony G, maybe the trade off is something you can live with.

El Tejano
01-10-2005, 12:50 PM
I still think we need to address the TE position either way. Even if Joppru is able to make it back and say we gamble on him by not putting any other TE on our roster, and he gets hurt, then we are S.O.L. We need to go with the understanding that guys like Joppru and any other TE we draft or acquire through FA is going to be there for many more years with us.

infantrycak
01-10-2005, 01:56 PM
how much cash have they invested in BJ?

Joppru signed a 4 year deal worth a total of $3 mil with a $1.65 mil signing bonus.

Link (http://texans.scout.com/2/161719.html)

hou059
01-10-2005, 02:26 PM
Ehhhhh, that's nothing. There have been bigger trajedies inthe NFL!

Mistril48
01-10-2005, 02:31 PM
Joppru signed a 4 year deal worth a total of $3 mil with a $1.65 mil signing bonus.Why give up on Joppru? Not for financial, or cap reasons.

The signing bonus of $1.65 is gone and while it has been amortized against the cap over 4 years, it will count against the cap. Period. It he is released after training camp, the remaining signing bonus for cap purposes will count 1/2 in 2005 and 1/2 in 2006, exactly the same as if they kept him.

His yearly salary ($3.0 mill - $1.65 mill), or approx $350,000 per year (I would imagine it was slightly less in 2003 and grows until 2006) has already been half paid and counted against the cap. If he is released after training camp, the team would save cash and cap of about $350,000 in each of 2005 and 2006. While on one hand it seems like a lot of money, it is a TINY amount compared to the over $160,000,000 payroll for 2005-6.

It was unfortunate that Joppru had this injury, particularly when he had no previous history of it. It's possible (I imagine) that it is behind him and that while his development has been delayed, he will start to contribute in the future. It's also possible (I imagine) that he will not ever develop as a player, or will have further injury problems. I have no idea. I can't see the money, or cap, as being a factor in the teams decision.

aj.
01-10-2005, 06:46 PM
Joppru's base:

2003 225,000
2004 305,000
2005 380,000
2006 460,000

If they did a standard proration on his signing bonus and there are no hidden bonuses, add 409,000 to his '05 and '06 bases to get his cap number. It would cost either 409k per year for two years or 818k this year if he was cut - denending on when he was cut. Pretty much a non issue capwise if you keep him or cut him. The issue is that he's taking up a roster spot and he needs to start producing.

Mistril48
01-10-2005, 07:40 PM
Thank you for the further clarificationThe issue is that he's taking up a roster spot ...Technically, he didn't cost the Texans a 53 man roster spot these past two years on IR, or PUP. I do agree, however, that we can't have him on the 53 man roster in the future, if he isn't going to contribute.

AndreJ
01-10-2005, 07:47 PM
Thank you for the further clarificationTechnically, he didn't cost the Texans a 53 man roster spot these past two years on IR, or PUP. I do agree, however, that we can't have him on the 53 man roster in the future, if he isn't going to contribute.

Yeah i just hope the Texans know something that we don't and that this guy has some real talent. I haven't seen him play at all in college and obviously haven't seen him play in the pro's.

I just hope he is worth the long wait.

aj.
01-11-2005, 06:12 AM
Technically, he didn't cost the Texans a 53 man roster spot these past two years on IR, or PUP. I realize that. My point was that he's seemingly in "waiting" and there's been a bit of a void at the position forever, plus he's not contributing, . His injuries are not his fault but it's time to get him on the field or move on.

mulpwr
01-14-2005, 11:03 AM
Heath Miller is a better blocking TE then people give him credit for.In 2004 he improved significantly especially with the Cavs relying on the running game so much. He would be an excellent red zone or third down threat. Reminds you a lot of Todd Heap. I don't think the Packers would let him get away if he lasted that long myself since Bubba Franks is a UFA.

edo783
01-14-2005, 03:20 PM
If Franks gets away from GB I will be VERY surprised, so I don't see them drafting Miller. Either one would be great for us to have, but I doubt we have much of a chance to snag them.

SheTexan
01-14-2005, 04:40 PM
How can you accuse a player of having "marginal" talent when he has minimal playing time? You can't "produce" if you're not given the opportunity. JMO!!

I just think you have to look at the whole picture. Don't blast one guy on the offense unless you blast them all!

Honoring Earl 34
01-14-2005, 05:07 PM
:howdy: If I remember right Joppru was said to have the best hands on the team.I think he has worked out in offseason drills and displayed this.
He was drafted ahead of several highly regarded TE's.I hope for his sake he can play and play well.

aj.
01-14-2005, 06:37 PM
Using that logic, Hollings has basically seen his last day in a Texans uniform.
Not really. Hollings has appeared in 21 games in two seasons. Joppru has appeared in 0 games in two seasons. One needs to show that he can stay healthy for a full season and the other needs to show that he can make it through training camp.

Hit Man
01-16-2005, 09:56 AM
I wondered why the Texan's called the same offensive game plan every single week. They didn't use 3 Wides and a Tightend very much. The offensive line couldn't hold back a pack of mice, so Carr had to dump off to save his life from being Terminated! :howdy:

aj.
01-16-2005, 10:22 AM
They used 3 wides and a TE a bunch. But typically that TE was Bruener who wasn't "used" in the manner you implied since he isn't much of a consistent pass catching threat.

When you see what guys like Crumpler, Gates, Gonzalez, Pollard/Clark, Witten, Heap (when healthy), et al can do for the rest of the offense it's easy to see that the glaring void in the Texans offense is not just the OL.

jacquescas
01-18-2005, 03:26 AM
I think a quality dual threat TE will do more for our offense than revamping the o-line again. Pitts is going into his second NFL season at guard and has been good run blocking. Wand had a quiet season, which is great for a first year starting left tackle, he could end up being very servicable. Wade is in his first year in our system. Other than maybe McKinney i'm not an advocate of changing much on the line unless it comes from internal competition from players already on roster or drafted.

a great TE could help us explode. Bubba Franks would really help both the run and the passing game. As would Alex Smith or Heath Miller

aj.
01-18-2005, 06:09 AM
I asked Aaron Glenn to put his offensive coordinator hat on and tell me what he thought was the best way to beat a cover two. He said without hesitation: "fast TE up the middle seam."