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View Full Version : Richard Justice wonders why Kubiak pulled Andre Johnson Sunday in Oakland ?


nunusguy
12-23-2008, 06:59 AM
I have no idea why Gary Kubiak benched his best player during that final possession in Oakland Sunday afternoon. I just know that his explanation doesn't ring true.
''I was trying to get Jacoby (Jones) some reps and get him in the game,'' Kubiak said.
http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2008/12/i_dont_believe.html
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Personally I think Kubiak was jockeying for position in Aprils college Draft ?
**
But I always like to post articles by Justice because like with the Cowboys, lot of people here in Houston hate him but unlike with the Cowboys he has few fans in Houston. Except me, I'm a big Richie fan.

TimeKiller
12-23-2008, 07:11 AM
We weren't going to win, Andre wasn't going to get the ball, so don't get your franchise player hurt in a meaningless game? Plus Jacoby does need reps at doing something from a WR spot. I don't know why Justice chooses to write over something so...very mundane in the grand scheme of that particular game or the season as an almost-complete whole.

Keep ignoring the things that matter Richard, it's what keeps you on ESPN.

Porky
12-23-2008, 07:42 AM
That diatribe is akin to pointing out a pimple on an elephant.

Thorn
12-23-2008, 07:45 AM
That diatribe is akin to pointing out a pimple on an elephant.


How does an elephant pop a pimple? :thinking:

Texan_Bill
12-23-2008, 08:07 AM
We weren't going to win, Andre wasn't going to get the ball, so don't get your franchise player hurt in a meaningless game? Plus Jacoby does need reps at doing something from a WR spot. I don't know why Justice chooses to write over something so...very mundane in the grand scheme of that particular game or the season as an almost-complete whole.

Keep ignoring the things that matter Richard, it's what keeps you on ESPN. Because it's Dickie being Dickie.....

How does an elephant pop a pimple? :thinking:
:spit:

RTP2110
12-23-2008, 08:24 AM
Plus Jacoby does need reps at doing something from a WR spot. .


He does, but you don't take out AJ to do it. Let Jacoby come in for Anderson, or Davis, or even Walter.

maddogmrb
12-23-2008, 08:29 AM
We weren't going to win, Andre wasn't going to get the ball, so don't get your franchise player hurt in a meaningless game? Plus Jacoby does need reps at doing something from a WR spot. I don't know why Justice chooses to write over something so...very mundane in the grand scheme of that particular game or the season as an almost-complete whole.

Keep ignoring the things that matter Richard, it's what keeps you on ESPN.

Well, I guess AJ shouldn't play this week against the Bears.....

HOU-TEX
12-23-2008, 08:35 AM
He does, but you don't take out AJ to do it. Let Jacoby come in for Anderson, or Davis, or even Walter.

Why not? The game's already out of hand so what does it matter? Everybody knows AJ is the man here in H-town so he doesn't really have to prove anything to me.

I might get pounded for this, but one of the last passes that Schaub threw towards AJ it appeared that AJ didn't finish his route. Whether it be due to being knocked out of his route or just didn't think he was getting the ball thrown his way, who knows?

I think that play had a lot to do with Schaub being so pissed after seeing his ball sail 5 yards away from AJ. We'll never know for sure and I haven't re-watched the game yet to clearify. It was just my initial thought.

My .02

Ole Miss Texan
12-23-2008, 08:47 AM
We weren't going to win, Andre wasn't going to get the ball, so don't get your franchise player hurt in a meaningless game? Plus Jacoby does need reps at doing something from a WR spot. I don't know why Justice chooses to write over something so...very mundane in the grand scheme of that particular game or the season as an almost-complete whole.

Keep ignoring the things that matter Richard, it's what keeps you on ESPN.

That's how I feel. People want to always find some sort of controversy or conspiracy in everything. Andre like all players has their good games and bad games, he's not immune to them. Plus, he was being covered by the best CB in the league. No need to risk injuring your star player in a game that is already lost. Other players need to see the field and that's the perfect time to let them in for a few snaps.

nunusguy
12-23-2008, 08:48 AM
I think that play had a lot to do with Schaub being so pissed after seeing his ball sail 5 yards away from AJ. We'll never know for sure and I haven't re-watched the game yet to clearify. It was just my initial thought.


I wondered about Schaub getting so upset ? Actually he got PO'd more than once as I recall and I wondered 'bout that but at the time I figured he was upset with himself for perhaps making a bad throw ? But maybe he was mad at his receiver ?

BuffaloglennTX
12-23-2008, 08:59 AM
Why not? The game's already out of hand so what does it matter? Everybody knows AJ is the man here in H-town so he doesn't really have to prove anything to me.

I might get pounded for this, but one of the last passes that Schaub threw towards AJ it appeared that AJ didn't finish his route. Whether it be due to being knocked out of his route or just didn't think he was getting the ball thrown his way, who knows?

I think that play had a lot to do with Schaub being so pissed after seeing his ball sail 5 yards away from AJ. We'll never know for sure and I haven't re-watched the game yet to clearify. It was just my initial thought.

My .02

Bingo - I thought that was why Schaub was so angry. I noticed that AJ didn't finish his route as well, and I think that was why Schaub was so mad. There were also a couple of drops, one by K-Dub that would have been a tough catch but came at a crucial time. Matt should be angry. He really didn't get the protection he needed and his receivers did not get open like they should have. Maybe AJ is tired or has a nagging injury - if so Kubiak did the right thing and got someone else in there. Not someone better, obviously, but maybe someone who would finish their route.

HOU-TEX
12-23-2008, 09:04 AM
I wondered about Schaub getting so upset ? Actually he got PO'd more than once as I recall and I wondered 'bout that but at the time I figured he was upset with himself for perhaps making a bad throw ? But maybe he was mad at his receiver ?

Nah, IMO, the throw to AJ was a timed route in which AJ wasn't to the spot on time. IIRC, it was an in route and AJ was unable to complete the in due to coverage or just being late.

The other time was a short dump off to Slaton over the middle. The ball was thrown over Slaton's head. I'm not sure why Schaub was pissed on that play. He was either pissed at himself for overthrowing the ball. Or he was pissed at Slaton for not being deep enough. The way he was barking towards Slaton after the play, I'd guess the latter of the two.

TimeKiller
12-23-2008, 09:59 AM
He does, but you don't take out AJ to do it. Let Jacoby come in for Anderson, or Davis, or even Walter.
Apparently you do.

Well, I guess AJ shouldn't play this week against the Bears.....
What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about a specific situation, not anything else.

Double Barrel
12-23-2008, 10:58 AM
This is what bad teams do in garbage time. No big deal. We see it every year. [/sarcasm]

Drew_Smoke
12-23-2008, 11:04 AM
Meagan Manful really pressed Kubes on this during his presser yesterday. She wrote about it today.

dtran04
12-23-2008, 12:14 PM
Yeah I thought AJ also stopped his "in" route during the play. There was a guy shading him inside and he figured he wouldn't be thrown the ball (which is somewhat understandable). However, him completing the route could have prevented the INT.

Then again, not throwing the ball to the wide receiver, even someone like AJ, demoralizes them throughout the game. They don't run as hard as they can every play. It's human nature.

Vinny
12-23-2008, 12:39 PM
If our Einstein coach had just kicked the gimmie FG a few possessions earlier to make this a one score game then AJ would have played and every time we had the ball late in the game we had something to play for on each of our last drives....but he was too busy trying to be the smartest guy in the room.

Nuns, no way Kubiak is trying to get a better draft pick...that would be idiotic.....hmmm, perhaps there is a theme here.

Runner
12-23-2008, 12:49 PM
If our Einstein coach had just kicked the gimmie FG a few possessions earlier to make this a one score game then AJ would have played and every time we had the ball late in the game we had something to play for on each of our last drives....but he was too busy trying to be the smartest guy in the room.



No doubt Dre would have played had the game still been in question. I guess Kubiak basically gave up. However, the reason for benching Dre doesn't make a lot of sense. Given some of the poor individual performances of the year though, why pick Dre at this time to send a message? I'd like to get more info on this one...

nunusguy
12-23-2008, 12:52 PM
Nuns, no way Kubiak is trying to get a better draft pick...that would be idiotic.....hmmm, perhaps there is a theme here.

V, you are so easy sometimes.

Kaiser Toro
12-23-2008, 01:19 PM
If our Einstein coach had just kicked the gimmie FG a few possessions earlier to make this a one score game then AJ would have played and every time we had the ball late in the game we had something to play for on each of our last drives....but he was too busy trying to be the smartest guy in the room.

Nuns, no way Kubiak is trying to get a better draft pick...that would be idiotic.....hmmm, perhaps there is a theme here.

Not the first time he has made this type of decision. Whether it is lack of preparation and attempting to motivate players or he and his staff have no feel for the game from the sidelines, it is a problem that needs to be addressed in change in personnel or the staff.

This is a young team, but make no mistake about it they are professionals, not kids. And if anyone calls them kids, they better act like a friggin parent and show some tough love in an occupation that is anything but safe for kids. If Kubiak wants to play with kids, he can do that on his own time. On my time and dime, I want him coaching professionals.

Beat the Bears, fire Smith, fire Hoke, get a new scouting department and get meaner and faster. Kids, teachers and PeeWee coaches need not apply. :texflag:

barrett
12-23-2008, 01:24 PM
Whats wrong with the scouting dept in this regime? It's already been overhauled once since Smith got here.

Kaiser Toro
12-23-2008, 01:28 PM
Whats wrong with the scouting dept in this regime? It's already been overhauled once since Smith got here.

Definition of insanity...

Bobby Grier was tabbed as Houston’s associate director of pro personnel in May 2000. Grier previously held the title of vice president/player personnel for the New England Patriots.

Grier spent 18 years as a player personnel executive and as a coach with the Patriots, serving in his vice president role for more than four years. In that capacity, he was responsible for overseeing all aspects of New England’s pro and college scouting departments, player evaluations, free agency, and the annual NFL Draft. From 1995 until he joined the Texans, Grier served as New England’s director of player personnel.

From 1985-92, Grier was New England’s running backs coach, working under three different head coaches (Raymond Berry, Rod Rust, Dick MacPherson). The 1985 squad captured the franchise’s first AFC championship before losing to the Chicago Bears in Super Bowl XX. That season, Grier’s backs gained 2,331 rushing yards, including 1,227 by Houston native Craig James. Grier was a college scout for New England from 1982-84. Grier’s first NFL position came in New England in 1981 when he was the running backs coach under Ron Erhardt.

Grier spent 1978-80 as running backs coach at Boston College under Ed Chlebek, helping the team improve from 0-11 to 7-4. Grier’s initial college coaching post came at Eastern Michigan where he coached the running backs for George Mans and then Chlebek from 1974-77. From 1970-73, Grier was the head coach at Detroit’s Martin Luther King High School. Grier’s first coaching assignment came as an assistant at Kettering (Mich.) High School from 1966-69.

Grier is a native of Detroit. He holds a bachelor’s of science degree in physical education from Iowa, where he was a three-year starter at running back as well as a two-time honorable mention All-Big Ten selection. As a senior, Grier led the Hawkeyes in rushing. He and his wife, Wendy, live in Houston. They have two sons — Chris, who is the director of college scouting for the Miami Dolphins, and Michael, who plays for the NHL’s San Jose Sharks.


http://www.houstontexans.com/team/FrontOfficeBio.asp?front_office_id=61

With more money to play with this year, I want someone else behind the curtain bringing FAs to the table for Smith and Kubiak to negoitiate with.

Vinny
12-23-2008, 01:31 PM
Whats wrong with the scouting dept in this regime? It's already been overhauled once since Smith got here.
Bobby Grier is the head of pro scouting and he was hired two years before this franchise was named. He is still here making all those great evaluations like how dominant Robaire Smith is, or how upright Todd Wade could stand when pass blocking or the mad pass rushing skills of Charlie Clemons, or perhaps the sweet backpedal of Anthony Weaver....ugh Anyway, Grier is still here and I'm not sure how he still has a job.

Porky
12-23-2008, 01:47 PM
Bobby Grier is the head of pro scouting and he was hired two years before this franchise was named. He is still here making all those great evaluations like how dominant Robaire Smith is, or how upright Todd Wade could stand when pass blocking or the mad pass rushing skills of Charlie Clemons, or perhaps the sweet backpedal of Anthony Weaver....ugh Anyway, Grier is still here and I'm not sure how he still has a job.


How Grier is still here is the 8th wonder of the world.

How Jesse Nading was expected to cover Darren Mcfadden is the 9th wonder.

steelbtexan
12-23-2008, 01:51 PM
Bobby Grier is the head of pro scouting and he was hired two years before this franchise was named. He is still here making all those great evaluations like how dominant Robaire Smith is, or how upright Todd Wade could stand when pass blocking or the mad pass rushing skills of Charlie Clemons, or perhaps the sweet backpedal of Anthony Weaver....ugh Anyway, Grier is still here and I'm not sure how he still has a job.

My sentiments exactly

I hope Greir takes Hoke & Riley out the door with him.

Hoke had been the DB coach for 6 years & they hired Rhodes to help him out in year 7. This speaks volumes about Hokes job competency.

HOU-TEX
12-23-2008, 02:11 PM
How Grier is still here is the 8th wonder of the world.

How Jesse Nading was expected to cover Darren Mcfadden is the 9th wonder.

LMAO! Yeah, we ran a LB blitz leaving Nading on an island. Obviously, the blitz didn't even come close. Leaving ample time for Nading to fall down and McFadden wide open.

It was so sad it was funny. If that makes any sense.

Brando
12-23-2008, 02:30 PM
Bobby Grier is the head of pro scouting and he was hired two years before this franchise was named. He is still here making all those great evaluations like how dominant Robaire Smith is, or how upright Todd Wade could stand when pass blocking or the mad pass rushing skills of Charlie Clemons, or perhaps the sweet backpedal of Anthony Weaver....ugh Anyway, Grier is still here and I'm not sure how he still has a job.


QFT, this needs to be the first change this off season.

Throw me in the camp of getting rid of Hoke,Dick, and Bobby.

Double Barrel
12-23-2008, 03:26 PM
Bobby Grier is the head of pro scouting and he was hired two years before this franchise was named. He is still here making all those great evaluations like how dominant Robaire Smith is, or how upright Todd Wade could stand when pass blocking or the mad pass rushing skills of Charlie Clemons, or perhaps the sweet backpedal of Anthony Weaver....ugh Anyway, Grier is still here and I'm not sure how he still has a job.

The fact that he's still here indicates a fundamental flaw in the FO of this organization. With that kind of talent evaluation (or lack of, as it stands), we will continually be a mediocre team with no real depth and lots of money tied up in over-valued players.

The Patriots started winning after they got rid of Grier. hmmmm, did you catch that, Bob McNair?! The Patriots started winning after they got rid of Grier.

infantrycak
12-23-2008, 04:53 PM
The Patriots started winning after they got rid of Grier. hmmmm, did you catch that, Bob McNair?! The Patriots started winning after they got rid of Grier.

Welllllll, to be fair...during the five years he was head of player personnel, they went to the playoffs 3 times. Pete Carroll has to take some responsibility for the results and I'm thinking Belichick (whose arrival coincided with Grier's departure) should get some credit for their resurgence. There had to be some talent on the team from that period that let Belichick take them to win a SB in his 2nd year.

But if they find someone they like better--whack him.

Double Barrel
12-23-2008, 05:28 PM
Welllllll, to be fair...during the five years he was head of player personnel, they went to the playoffs 3 times. Pete Carroll has to take some responsibility for the results and I'm thinking Belichick (whose arrival coincided with Grier's departure) should get some credit for their resurgence. There had to be some talent on the team from that period that let Belichick take them to win a SB in his 2nd year.

But if they find someone they like better--whack him.

I think Bill Parcells and Pete Carroll probably had a lot more involvement than the two Texans head coaches...at least based upon the little information that we on the outside can perceive.

I'm sure that the Pats had some talent, as well, and did not mean to imply otherwise. Heck, they made it to Super Bowl XXXI in 1996 under Parcells. We've got talent, too, but I would think that the better player evaluators know how to find that proverbial 'diamond in the rough' and find those players that can contribute from the bench. We seem to be lacking in those areas after 7 seasons. It's getting better under Kubiak and Smith, but what is Grier's involvement? We just don't know.

But, the point is that Grier was working with Bill Parcells, who is obviously a much different HC than either Capers or Kubiak. Parcells moved him to the scouting department (from being a backs coach), and then Carroll promoted him to vice president of player personnel. But why did Bill Belichick get rid of him when he got hired if he was so qualified?

There is absolutely nothing on Grier's resume at this point that can lead one to believe that he possesses all the skills needed to build a franchise from the ground up. Maybe he works well within an established franchise? As mentioned in Vinny's previous message, we have a history of over-evaluating and over-paying mediocre players. Grier has been here the entire time of our 7 year run at craptacular, so I'd say he's as guilty as the next guy of producing garbage results.

Maybe it's just finger-pointing time to vent some frustration. "Next year" does little to ease the disappointment of yet another losing season.

infantrycak
12-23-2008, 05:36 PM
I'm sure that the Pats had some talent, as well, and did not mean to imply otherwise. Heck, they made it to Super Bowl XXXI in 1996 under Parcells. We've got talent, too, but I would think that the better player evaluators know how to find that proverbial 'diamond in the rough' and find those players that can contribute from the bench. We seem to be lacking in those areas after 7 seasons. It's getting better under Kubiak and Smith, but what is Grier's involvement? We just don't know.

The we just don't know is where I am at. Seems to me since Smith got here they have been doing a pretty good job of finding some diamonds who are either starting or providing solid depth--Leach, Walter, Bulman, Eugene Wilson, Demps, Dreesen to name a few. Seems like most of the big misses - Wade, Weaver, Greenwood - were back in the Casserly days. Does Smith now have him in a different role? Was he really involved in those Casserly era transactions?

Totally understand frustration though.

ObsiWan
12-23-2008, 05:45 PM
I find it interesting ("amazing" even) that Greer gets anything worthwhile accomplished given that there are only two "Pro Scouts" working for him.

Is that all it takes? Two guys to scout the NFL, Canadian FL, and Arena FL?

Seems to be a bit understaffed to me.
But what do I know, I'm just a fan.

Double Barrel
12-23-2008, 06:29 PM
The we just don't know is where I am at. Seems to me since Smith got here they have been doing a pretty good job of finding some diamonds who are either starting or providing solid depth--Leach, Walter, Bulman, Eugene Wilson, Demps, Dreesen to name a few. Seems like most of the big misses - Wade, Weaver, Greenwood - were back in the Casserly days. Does Smith now have him in a different role? Was he really involved in those Casserly era transactions?

Totally understand frustration though.

yeah, I'm just venting, so I'll be the first to admit that my takes are pure speculation.

I find it interesting ("amazing" even) that Greer gets anything worthwhile accomplished given that there are only two "Pro Scouts" working for him.

Is that all it takes? Two guys to scout the NFL, Canadian FL, and Arena FL?

Seems to be a bit understaffed to me.
But what do I know, I'm just a fan.

Really? I thought (assumed) we had more than that...man, that's just weak if that's the case!

Kaiser Toro
12-23-2008, 06:46 PM
The we just don't know is where I am at. Seems to me since Smith got here they have been doing a pretty good job of finding some diamonds who are either starting or providing solid depth--Leach, Walter, Bulman, Eugene Wilson, Demps, Dreesen to name a few. Seems like most of the big misses - Wade, Weaver, Greenwood - were back in the Casserly days. Does Smith now have him in a different role? Was he really involved in those Casserly era transactions?

Totally understand frustration though.

Moulds, Green, Colvin, Weaver, Myers and no gems at need positions CB, OL, LB and RB.

I am just saying that I would rather have a fresh eye out there. However, maybe the way Kubiak averted the chain of command or "jurisdiction" of Grier was to take players from certain systems that Grier did not have an eye for and Grier would go out and deal with the top end of the FA market. Obviously, I am thinking out loud.

BTW, you know that between weeks 16 & 17 each year we have our witch trials, so keep your logic and moderate temperament to yourself. We have some burning to do. :chickendance:

Vinny
12-23-2008, 11:44 PM
How Grier is still here is the 8th wonder of the world.

How Jesse Nading was expected to cover Darren Mcfadden is the 9th wonder.

LMAO! Yeah, we ran a LB blitz leaving Nading on an island. Obviously, the blitz didn't even come close. Leaving ample time for Nading to fall down and McFadden wide open.

It was so sad it was funny. If that makes any sense.
too bad not everyone has Anthony Weavers sweet backpedal.

GP
12-24-2008, 12:04 AM
Maybe AJ benched himself?

If I'm AJ and I had been a part of that game's game-plan, seeing the game slip away with every tick of the clock, and seeing virtually no adjustments being made, while seeing the lowly Raiders make fools of us in front of a stadium maybe 1/4th full on a rainy day...I'd be inclined to sit myself down with a tweaked or sore something. I'd say my pee-pee hurts, and I'm done. The game was out of reach, I'm the best WR in the league, and we're not making the playoffs. And if Gary Kubiak doesn't like it, he can trade me to a real team.

That was a waste of jet fuel, time, energy, etc.

That was not the same Texans who won four-straight games, one of which was in frozen Lambeau and one against the Titans. Where did THAT team go to? Why didn't they play the same way. Outside of Kris Brown and Steve Slaton, and possibly Owen Daniels, who really played a good game?

The coaching and the playing were trying to out-suck one another.

AJ probably has been a part of these sorts of brain farts that he's just had enough of it. Maybe he's at a breaking point. I know he, and others, recently said that they were "thankful" for the team and for each other, and blah-blah-blah. Winning seems to soothe all pains. Which is why the dorkiness of this game COULD have made AJ snap. He's had it. Racking up all the yards, the records, the Pro Bowls, etc., is not AJ's goal. Can the Texans figure it out before he is unable to play anymore?

The clock was ticking away on the Raiders game. Does AJ feel that the clock is ticking away on his career?

I think he took a ride on the pine pony, all on his own. Kubiak gave a Fisher answer to get the question off the table. It's done. Next?

mussop
12-24-2008, 01:40 AM
Welllllll, to be fair...during the five years he was head of player personnel, they went to the playoffs 3 times. Pete Carroll has to take some responsibility for the results and I'm thinking Belichick (whose arrival coincided with Grier's departure) should get some credit for their resurgence. There had to be some talent on the team from that period that let Belichick take them to win a SB in his 2nd year.

But if they find someone they like better--whack him.

:spit:

Like someone said let the witch trials begin.

Lucky
12-24-2008, 07:11 AM
:spit:

Like someone said let the witch trials begin.
When a regime goes 3 seasons without winning, there should be some blood. I'm certain there won't be enough for my taste.

I think Kubiak should be opening his 3rd envelope. Most here believe it's time for the 2nd. Kubiak will likely go back to the 1st. "We've made progress, but we've got a long ways to go", id est "We're still cleaning up the other guys' mess".

TimeKiller
12-24-2008, 08:35 AM
LMAO! Yeah, we ran a LB blitz leaving Nading on an island. Obviously, the blitz didn't even come close. Leaving ample time for Nading to fall down and McFadden wide open.

It was so sad it was funny. If that makes any sense.

You know, I had just about forgotten about that....

....thanks for bringing it back up.

If there is to be any case made for Richard Smith's departure, it ought to be someone kicking down McNair's door, come in with a giant screen t.v. playing this clip over and over.

HOU-TEX
12-24-2008, 09:00 AM
too bad not everyone has Anthony Weavers sweet backpedal.

Nading is still wet behind the ears. It takes experience and rigorous training to perfect 'THE Weaver backpedal'. It also takes at least 8 hours a day in the film room to learn the fluidity of the 'Weaver' type motions.