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View Full Version : Tebow ought to be out of the running for the heismann, here's why:


powerfuldragon
12-10-2008, 07:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfQm1Lg_8oA

The Tim Tebow song. even has it's own damn website where you can download it. while listening to this song, remember, down the road not across the street.

bah007
12-10-2008, 09:03 PM
Well, unfortunately for you, he is a finalist...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3760910

Tim Tebow will go for two against a pair of talented quarterbacks from the Big 12 when the Heisman Trophy is handed out Saturday night.

Sam Bradford from Oklahoma and Colt McCoy from Texas joined Tebow as Heisman finalists announced Wednesday.

mexican_texan
12-10-2008, 09:12 PM
The guy in the jersey reminds me of Jim McMahon.

dc_txtech
12-10-2008, 09:57 PM
The Heisman trophy is a freakin joke. What a coincidence that the most outstanding player in college football has been a RB or a QB 69 out of the last 73 years. And funny how that guy happens to play for a perennial powerhouse 95% of the time.

Just one more reason that college football sucks compared to the NFL.

headsplint
12-10-2008, 10:21 PM
Not trying to be a big 12 homer, but I am a bit surprised Tebow is in there and not Graham Harrell. Sure Tebow is a good college QB, but for him to be there and not GH doesn't sound right IMO. Really though, i'm not sure it matters I think Bradford gets it and deservedly so. And i'm a UT fan. I would like to see it go to Colt, but you can't deny what Bradford has done. And if Tebow wins, that will be completely effed up.

Wolf
12-10-2008, 10:21 PM
while I DO understand that the Heisman is the best COLLEGE player

And while I do know there are players all the time that their College game doesn't match well with the NFL game

I find it interesting how many players winning it become players that basically don't make a scratch in the NFL game

http://www.heisman.com/winners/hsmn-winners.html

Just looking at the surface, one would deduct that if a player was that good in college, he would do at least semi-decent in the PRO game

headsplint
12-10-2008, 10:24 PM
while I DO understand that the Heisman is the best COLLEGE player

And while I do know there are players all the time that their College game doesn't match well with the NFL game

I find it interesting how many players winning it become players that basically don't make a scratch in the NFL game

http://www.heisman.com/winners/hsmn-winners.html

Just looking at the surface, one would deduct that if a player was that good in college, he would do at least semi-decent in the PRO game

Yeah I know, it's almost as if it's a curse, only there are some who do well. But just thinking back who is the last Heisman winner that was a Quarterback who did well in the NFL? I should have clicked your link first.

**edit, okay i'm an ***** I forgot about Palmer. But looking at the list it's glaring how many really did not translate well to the nfl.

Wolf
12-10-2008, 10:26 PM
Yeah I know, it's almost as if it's a curse, only there are some who do well. But just thinking back who is the last Heisman winner that was a Quarterback who did well in the NFL? I should have clicked your link first.

Carson Palmer I guess you could say and before that Troy Aikman

The1ApplePie
12-10-2008, 11:04 PM
Tebow will be less than nothing in the NFL

Let him have his glory

bah007
12-11-2008, 07:59 AM
The Heisman trophy is a freakin joke. What a coincidence that the most outstanding player in college football has been a RB or a QB 69 out of the last 73 years. And funny how that guy happens to play for a perennial powerhouse 95% of the time.

Just one more reason that college football sucks compared to the NFL.

Everyone knows the Heisman voting is ridiculous.

Tebow jumped Harrell in the voting because of the way Florida played down the stretch compared to how Tech played.

Tech players won't shake that "system offense" moniker unless they make it to the big time. This year was probably their best chance.

Errant Hothy
12-11-2008, 10:02 AM
The fact that Tech gets labelled as a system offense, while UT and Florida doesn't is a joke. The zone option running game out of the spread is every bit the "system" as Tech's short passing/long hand-off attack. In fact Tebow's numbers last year where the most system generated numbers in the history of college football and he still got the Heisman.

All of these guys had bad games, Harrell just had his last so he gets the shafting. If Harrell played at any of the big name programs not only would he have gotten the invite, he'd probably walk away with the award.

Ole Miss Texan
12-11-2008, 10:16 AM
Tebow is still pretty outstanding.

A lot of time the winner of the heisman wins it purely based on his physical ability. In college you can still get by on your physical talents. Even for non heisman winners. The college takes just as much smarts as it does physicallness (word?).

It's just like the jump from high school to college. You can have outstanding HS players that just don't do as well in college. Like the 5 star recruits that don't pan out. Sometimes players just peak at different times.

HOU-TEX
12-11-2008, 11:07 AM
The way I look at it is how each team would do without said player. IMO, Tech and Oklahoma would still be very good football teams due to the "system"(Tech) and the players that surround them (Oklahoma). Texas and Florida would not be as productive as they are with their players.

IMO, it should go to Colt. Out of the candidates he's the one that meant more to his team than the others.

I doubt he'll get it, but I just thought I'd throw my .02 out there. :)

bah007
12-11-2008, 11:45 AM
The fact that Tech gets labelled as a system offense, while UT and Florida doesn't is a joke. The zone option running game out of the spread is every bit the "system" as Tech's short passing/long hand-off attack. In fact Tebow's numbers last year where the most system generated numbers in the history of college football and he still got the Heisman.

All of these guys had bad games, Harrell just had his last so he gets the shafting. If Harrell played at any of the big name programs not only would he have gotten the invite, he'd probably walk away with the award.

I think Harrell lost it in the Baylor game to be honest.

He was not nearly as effective when Crabtree went down (as expected). Crabtree is more valuable to Tech's offense, and he is the most talented player on the team.

If any of Tech's players got snubbed, it is Crabtree.

bah007
12-11-2008, 11:49 AM
The fact that Tech gets labelled as a system offense, while UT and Florida doesn't is a joke. The zone option running game out of the spread is every bit the "system" as Tech's short passing/long hand-off attack. In fact Tebow's numbers last year where the most system generated numbers in the history of college football and he still got the Heisman.

All of these guys had bad games, Harrell just had his last so he gets the shafting. If Harrell played at any of the big name programs not only would he have gotten the invite, he'd probably walk away with the award.

The reason Tech gets the "system offense" moniker is because they throw on nearly every down.

Their stats are devalued because they are inflated by the offense they run.

Texas and Florida each run a spread offense, but they have much more balance between run and pass.

Errant Hothy
12-11-2008, 12:38 PM
The reason Tech gets the "system offense" moniker is because they throw on nearly every down.

Their stats are devalued because they are inflated by the offense they run.

Texas and Florida each run a spread offense, but they have much more balance between run and pass.

Tech was more balanced this year then any any previous year under Leach.

Eric Crouch won the Heismen, and at the time Nebraska ran the ball nearly everydown. Were his stats devalued? Andre Ware and Ty Detmer won the ball throwing it more then Harrell did. Were their stats devalued? Colt's and Tebow's running numbers are generated by the zone option read, a system, should their stats be devalued?

I never thought Harrell was going to win the award, but he was certainly worthy of an invite.

bah007
12-11-2008, 12:56 PM
Tech was more balanced this year then any any previous year under Leach.

Eric Crouch won the Heismen, and at the time Nebraska ran the ball nearly everydown. Were his stats devalued? Andre Ware and Ty Detmer won the ball throwing it more then Harrell did. Were their stats devalued? Colt's and Tebow's running numbers are generated by the zone option read, a system, should their stats be devalued?

I never thought Harrell was going to win the award, but he was certainly worthy of an invite.

I'm not gonna say it's fair, because it's not. It just is what it is.

I heard on Mike and Mike this morning that one possibility is that he is gonna be such a distant fourth in the voting they didn't want him to show up thinking he has a shot and then be embarrassed when he comes away with hardly any votes.

They only invite the people who have a realistic chance of winning. Whether Harrell gets invited or not, he is still going to finish in fourth place, meaning he has no shot at winning.

bah007
12-11-2008, 12:58 PM
Tech was more balanced this year then any any previous year under Leach.

Eric Crouch won the Heismen, and at the time Nebraska ran the ball nearly everydown. Were his stats devalued? Andre Ware and Ty Detmer won the ball throwing it more then Harrell did. Were their stats devalued? Colt's and Tebow's running numbers are generated by the zone option read, a system, should their stats be devalued?

I never thought Harrell was going to win the award, but he was certainly worthy of an invite.

You made good points throughout this post but this was not one of them.

The zone read is just one play in the spread offense. The spread is the "system" of offense.

I don't know many times Tebow keeps the ball on the zone read, but Colt only does it two or three times per game. Most of his runs are on draws and scrambles, plays that every other team runs.

Errant Hothy
12-11-2008, 01:47 PM
You made good points throughout this post but this was not one of them.

The zone read is just one play in the spread offense. The spread is the "system" of offense.

I don't know many times Tebow keeps the ball on the zone read, but Colt only does it two or three times per game. Most of his runs are on draws and scrambles, plays that every other team runs.

I think it's safe to say that there is developing a divergence in what is known as the spread offense, the teams that use the zone option read as part of their spread, ala UT, Florida, etc and those teams that run the traditional spread, ala Tech, Missouri, etc.

I'd classify both as "systems", or at the very least distant cousins under the same system.

But they, and the numbers it can generate for the QBs, are still systems.

Ole Miss Texan
12-11-2008, 02:11 PM
The way I look at it is how each team would do without said player. IMO, Tech and Oklahoma would still be very good football teams due to the "system"(Tech) and the players that surround them (Oklahoma). Texas and Florida would not be as productive as they are with their players.

IMO, it should go to Colt. Out of the candidates he's the one that meant more to his team than the others.

I doubt he'll get it, but I just thought I'd throw my .02 out there. :)

That's more indicative of a most valuable player (MVP) award than the heisman (most oustanding college player). I think for the heisman, you have to look at it in all sorts of ways. Just stats wont tell the picture, you gotta look at so many different qualities of the person, team, opponents, stats, etc. But I think how your looking at it is definitely a very important part.

kastofsna
12-11-2008, 02:12 PM
The Heisman trophy is a freakin joke. What a coincidence that the most outstanding player in college football has been a RB or a QB 69 out of the last 73 years. And funny how that guy happens to play for a perennial powerhouse 95% of the time.

Just one more reason that college football sucks compared to the NFL.

the NFL MVP has been awarded for 50 years by the Associated Press. 47 of those years, the MVP went to a RB or a QB.

blame the voters

bah007
12-11-2008, 02:21 PM
That's more indicative of a most valuable player (MVP) award than the heisman (most oustanding college player). I think for the heisman, you have to look at it in all sorts of ways. Just stats wont tell the picture, you gotta look at so many different qualities of the person, team, opponents, stats, etc. But I think how your looking at it is definitely a very important part.

There is no defined criteria for the Heisman trophy. The voters change the criteria every single year.

One year it is the best stats, then best player on best team, then best player, then best stats again.

Because there is no defined criteria, I think it should become an MVP trophy.

kastofsna
12-11-2008, 02:26 PM
i don't think the voters change it every year. i think there's a new discussion every year and certain voters speak up more than others and it seems like it changes, but for the most part, the voters all just have their own set of criteria

Errant Hothy
12-11-2008, 02:29 PM
It does not mater what you do with the critera for the Heisman, it'll still go to a QB 90% of the time.

If it was truly an MVP trophy then there are more players, who are more valuable to their teams then the 3 QBs headed to NYC. But the flipside is that it would be like the MLB MVP award, which is to say it would be the most valuable player on a winning/contending team.

If the Heisman was an MVP award a strong argueement could be made that Jacquiz Rogers (sp?), from Oregan State, was the most valueable player to his team.

bah007
12-11-2008, 02:31 PM
i don't think the voters change it every year. i think there's a new discussion every year and certain voters speak up more than others and it seems like it changes, but for the most part, the voters all just have their own set of criteria

That's closer to the point I was trying to make.

I think that the trophy would be better off being defined as a MVP trophy. They already have awards like the Maxwell and the Bednarik that go to the "best player".

bah007
12-11-2008, 02:31 PM
It does not mater what you do with the critera for the Heisman, it'll still go to a QB 90% of the time.

If it was truly an MVP trophy then there are more players more valuable to their teams then the 3 QBs headed to NYC. But the flipside it would be like the MLB MVP award, which is to say it would be the most valuable player on a winning/contending team.

If the Heisman was an MVP award a strong argueement could be made that Jacquiz Rogers (sp?), from Oregan State, was the most valueable player to his team.

I would say Colt McCoy or Shonn Greene.

Errant Hothy
12-11-2008, 02:38 PM
I would say Colt McCoy or Shonn Greene.

I agree with you about Shonn Greene, without him Iowa is nada this year.

Without Colt, I think UT stuggles, but Childs could have atleast gotten them to a decent bowl game. I know that would be below UT's standards but I don't think there season would implode without Colt. (Tech would have probably make a fairly smooth mid season transition from Harrell to Potts). The QB at Baylor is probably more valuable to Baylor then either Colt or Harrell is to their respective schools, just because of depth and quality of the 2nd string.

See now we have to define what constitutes value when decieding an MVP.

kastofsna
12-11-2008, 02:40 PM
That's closer to the point I was trying to make.

I think that the trophy would be better off being defined as a MVP trophy. They already have awards like the Maxwell and the Bednarik that go to the "best player".

right, but even "best player" is a very different thing to many people. "best player" means "most valuable player" to some. even so, the Maxwell hasn't be awarded to a non-QB/RB since Desmond Howard. in fact, it appears the percentage for QBs and RBs getting the Maxwell is higher than the Heisman. so there's bias inherent in any award when a bunch of vastly different people vast their ballots

kastofsna
12-11-2008, 02:43 PM
If the Heisman was an MVP award a strong argueement could be made that Jacquiz Rogers (sp?), from Oregan State, was the most valueable player to his team.

the problem i have with the whole MVP thing is it brings into question a lot of hypothetical debates, mainly "this player is so valuable, imagine the team without him." to me, it's pointless to discuss that, i'm more concerned with what the actual player does. and plus i don't think the MVP award in any sport is actually supposed to give it to the most valuable player in terms of their worth to the team, but rather their overall resume. i think the word "valuable" gets looked at too closely at times. other sports clear it up by saying "most outstanding player" and similar. it's all the same award

dc_txtech
12-11-2008, 05:29 PM
Everyone knows the Heisman voting is ridiculous.

Tebow jumped Harrell in the voting because of the way Florida played down the stretch compared to how Tech played.

Tech players won't shake that "system offense" moniker unless they make it to the big time. This year was probably their best chance.

Actually, I don't see what the big deal about Harrell is in the first place. BJ Symons threw for over a thousand more yards and 11 more TD's than Graham in his senior year and I don't recall hearing anyone complain about that. And he did it on a torn ACL. But then again if either of them played for USC they would have won the award by October.

On the other hand, Crabtree not getting an invite or even being talked about as a possible invite is what really chaps my ass. I know I'm in the minority in thinking that, even among Tech fans but that's the way I see it.

Crabtree is more valuable to Tech's offense, and he is the most talented player on the team.

If any of Tech's players got snubbed, it is Crabtree.

Cosigned

bah007
12-11-2008, 06:06 PM
I heard on Mike and Mike this morning that one possibility is that he is gonna be such a distant fourth in the voting they didn't want him to show up thinking he has a shot and then be embarrassed when he comes away with hardly any votes.

They only invite the people who have a realistic chance of winning. Whether Harrell gets invited or not, he is still going to finish in fourth place, meaning he has no shot at winning.

Perhaps this is the correct reason why he wasn't invited. Here is a site that has correctly predicted the Heisman winner for the past six years:

http://www.stiffarmtrophy.com/

Their projected totals right now:
Bradford - 1687
McCoy - 1516
Tebow - 1446
Harrell - 66
Greene - 56
Crabtree - 29

These are just projections right now. What they do is track down voters and ask them what their ballots look like. The more they talk to, the more accurate they get.

kastofsna
12-12-2008, 06:34 AM
they need to stick to a number. some years it's 3 invited, some it's 4 or 5, and i think i've seen 6 at one point, too

bah007
12-12-2008, 12:52 PM
they need to stick to a number. some years it's 3 invited, some it's 4 or 5, and i think i've seen 6 at one point, too

They invite the people who have a real chance of winning. Some years it is more than other years.

kastofsna
12-13-2008, 10:28 AM
well not really, they always invite at least three. when Bush blew everyone out of the water they still had Young and Leinart there, despite no chance at winning

bah007
12-13-2008, 02:09 PM
well not really, they always invite at least three. when Bush blew everyone out of the water they still had Young and Leinart there, despite no chance at winning

Before the votes were counted, it was believed that Young and Leinart may have a chance.

Turned out not to be close.

kastofsna
12-13-2008, 05:17 PM
yeah, which is why you could invite Harrell and say he has a chance.

bah007
12-13-2008, 07:05 PM
Heisman award show is about to begin.

This is the first time I can remember where three different guys could win this award and you wouldn't be surprised if any of their names were called.

My preference (being a UT fan) is McCoy. But I think Bradford will win it.

Kaiser Toro
12-13-2008, 07:08 PM
I think Bradford will get it as well.

bah007
12-13-2008, 08:04 PM
Bradford wins.

McCoy finishes in a very close second place. Tebow right behind him for third.

Harrell way way behind in fourth.

5. Crabtree
6. Shonn Greene
7. Pat White

Blake
12-13-2008, 08:30 PM
Bradford wins.

McCoy finishes in a very close second place. Tebow right behind him for third.

Harrell way way behind in fourth.

5. Crabtree
6. Shonn Greene
7. Pat White

I didnt see the count. Do you know it?

bah007
12-13-2008, 08:34 PM
I didnt see the count. Do you know it?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3767667

Bradford - 1726
McCoy - 1604
Tebow - 1575

Closest race since 2001.

Tebow actually received the most 1st place votes, but was third on the most ballots also, which is why he finished behind McCoy in total points.

mexican_texan
12-13-2008, 09:16 PM
Yes! I turned into an OU fan after seeing Murray and that defense. What a team.

bah007
12-13-2008, 09:31 PM
Yes! I turned into an OU fan after seeing Murray and that defense. What a team.

If you love OU's defense then you should tune in to the Fiesta Bowl to watch the Big XII's best...

edo783
12-13-2008, 09:39 PM
Tebow got the most 1st and 3rd place votes, but Bradford got something like 180 more second place votes. Not often the guy that gets the most 1st place votes loses.

mexican_texan
12-13-2008, 10:21 PM
If you love OU's defense then you should tune in to the Fiesta Bowl to watch the Big XII's best...
Actually, the game's in Miami this time, Fiesta Bowl was last year's National Championship site.

mexican_texan
12-13-2008, 10:22 PM
Tebow got the most 1st and 3rd place votes, but Bradford got something like 180 more second place votes. Not often the guy that gets the most 1st place votes loses.
That's what I heard was going to happen. On his show on Friday, Dan Patrick had all 3 candidates on and some internet hack said he predicted whoever got the most 2nd place votes would win.

bah007
12-13-2008, 10:28 PM
Actually, the game's in Miami this time, Fiesta Bowl was last year's National Championship site.

Yes, the championship is being held in Miami.

But the Big XII's top-ranked defense will be in Arizona.

Hardcore Texan
12-13-2008, 10:30 PM
Yes, the championship is being held in Miami.

But the Big XII's top-ranked defense will be in Arizona.

You are correct Sir! And Choklahoma will roll over like they always do and give it up big to the gators.....:kingkong:

mexican_texan
12-13-2008, 10:33 PM
Yes, the championship is being held in Miami.

But the Big XII's top-ranked defense will be in Arizona.
They may be top ranked, but for my money, Oklahoma's is better.

bah007
12-13-2008, 10:47 PM
They may be top ranked, but for my money, Oklahoma's is better.

I'll take that bet. Considering they've had a full season to prove it....and haven't.

mexican_texan
12-13-2008, 10:53 PM
Case 1: Texas Tech.

Though I guess I should say, I just enjoy watching OU's defense more. For UT, though, Sergio Kindle is a beast, I remember when he was in high school, dominated on defense and as running back.

bah007
12-13-2008, 11:01 PM
Case 1: Texas Tech.

Though I guess I should say, I just enjoy watching OU's defense more. For UT, though, Sergio Kindle is a beast, I remember when he was in high school, dominated on defense and as running back.

Well if you think they are more fun to watch then so be it. But don't confuse that with them being better.

Case 1? One game out of a whole season?

Texas and OU played six common opponents (Baylor, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma St, Texas A&M, Texas Tech).

Against those common foes:

Texas gave up 361 yards and 21.8 points per game.
OU gave up 375 yards and 26.5 points per game.

Texas is also #1 in the conference in nearly all major defensive categories.

kastofsna
12-14-2008, 09:40 AM
looks like both defenses are pretty medicore

surprised that Tebow finished third

bah007
12-14-2008, 10:27 AM
looks like both defenses are pretty medicore

surprised that Tebow finished third

Not as mediocre as the offenses in the SEC (with the exception of Florida, and perhaps Georgia), that's for sure.

I think Tebow lost some points because voters were afraid he might win again. They don't want another two time winner, ever.

It went down exactly like I thought it would:

1. Bradford
2. McCoy
3. Tebow







4. Harrell
5. Crabtree

mexican_texan
12-14-2008, 11:02 AM
Texas is also #1 in the conference in nearly all major defensive categories.

Which is only slightly better than being the best defense in Conference USA.

bah007
12-14-2008, 11:21 AM
Which is only slightly better than being the best defense in Conference USA.

I can see how giving up 18 points per game and leading the nation in sacks would lead you to that conclusion...

If you think the UT defense is on par with the C-USA, then I can't imagine how you enjoy watching OU's...