PDA

View Full Version : Thunder


RagingBull
12-08-2008, 10:02 AM
Am I the only one that wishes Kubes would make Vonta Leach the tailback in short yardage situations? That guy flat runs over people everytime he gets a pass; what makes them think he couldn't do the same if they hand him the ball?

GlassHalfFull
12-08-2008, 10:09 AM
I was just thinking that maybe Leach could be the thunder we are looking for to pair up with Slaton's lightning. It would be an interesting thing to try for the Tacks game.

TheCD
12-08-2008, 10:10 AM
Would be a good idea, but how are his hands? I have noticed a couple of occasions when he's gotten the ball, he's dropped it. Maybe that's it?

TexanSam
12-08-2008, 10:14 AM
Lance Zierlein talked about this idea on one his blogs and why it wouldn't work (I think that's what he said anyway). I'll see if I can find it.

Texans Pride
12-08-2008, 11:05 AM
No, you aren't the only one who wishes this.

I called in last week to 610, on Tuesday, and asked Eric Winston the same question. Winston also agreed that he'd like to see Leach get some touches in short yardage, particularly around the goal line.

ObsiWan
12-08-2008, 11:10 AM
sounds like a plan...
...who will be his lead blocker? Dreessen?

And this would be a perfect sucker play too. Dreessen and Leach in the "I"... Schaub fakes it to Leach, rolls out, and tosses it to a wide open Bruener. I'd say OD but everyone knows to watch him.

Texans Pride
12-08-2008, 11:13 AM
Isn't the Kubiak show on Mondays? Maybe I'll call in and pose the question to him.

BigBull17
12-08-2008, 11:39 AM
Yeah, it doesnt make alot of sense to take your best lead blocker out of his element on a short yardage play. He needs to pave the way for the play, not run it.

eriadoc
12-08-2008, 11:39 AM
Would be a good idea, but how are his hands? I have noticed a couple of occasions when he's gotten the ball, he's dropped it. Maybe that's it?

His hands are good enough that they haven't given up throwing him the ball. *shrug*

badboy
12-08-2008, 11:54 AM
sounds like a plan...
...who will be his lead blocker? Dreessen?

And this would be a perfect sucker play too. Dreessen and Leach in the "I"... Schaub fakes it to Leach, rolls out, and tosses it to a wide open Bruener. I'd say OD but everyone knows to watch him.Exactly. I had posted this on another thread prior to game. Most of our TEs are big enough and good enough blocking skills to lead the way, especially in red zone. I'd rather see 250+lbs carrying the rock in that situation than Super Slick.

Jackie Chiles
12-08-2008, 12:12 PM
Exactly. I had posted this on another thread prior to game. Most of our TEs are big enough and good enough blocking skills to lead the way, especially in red zone. I'd rather see 250+lbs carrying the rock in that situation than Super Slick.

The Coke Machine scoffs at needing a lead blocker. He'll lead block himself right into the end zone and then proceed to kill some grass with that cannon of a left arm he has on a spike.

nero THE zero
12-08-2008, 12:16 PM
I think one of the biggest fallacies in football is that a short yardage back has to be a big 230+lbs.

All you have to be able to do is hit the hole hard and push the pile. Some of the most effective goal line RB in the history of the league have been smaller guys. Priest Holmes, for example, was a slight 5'9" 213lbs.

Brando
12-08-2008, 12:25 PM
That sounds like a good idea about Leach for now but what about trading for Marion Barber. I know...call me Mr.Crazy Trade Idea Guy if you want..but it looks like Jerry is happy with Felix Jones and Tashard Choice and questions Barber's toughness after Barber didn't want to play injured.....

With the Dallas Cowboys’ 2008 season, which was presumably resurrected after knocking off a twin-pack of NFC West Twinkies at home in four days, now teetering on the edge of the abyss after blowing a ten-point lead with less than seven minutes to play at Pittsburgh on Sunday, owner Jerry Jones focused his most candid remarks on a guy who wasn’t even there to contribute to the debacle.

Jones has, in essence, declared to the world that he thinks Marion Barber, a bruising bull of a tailback, is a big sissy.

“He can play with that injured toe,” Jones said, according to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. ”He can play with the soreness and a combination of those things. I see nothing that led us to believe he couldn’t.”

Meanwhile, Jones praised rookie running back Tashard Choice, who generated 166 total yards against the Steelers on Sunday.

“Tashard might have added a plus,” Jones said. “I don’t think we lost any slack there.”

As we point out in this week’s Ten-Pack for SportingNews.com (the column is not yet live, and the anticipation for it is now palpable . . . if Webster’s has an alternative definition for “palpable” that includes “non-existent”), the emergence of Choice and the presence of Barber and rookie first-rounder Felix Jones could give the team some trade bait in the offseason.

Indeed, Jones’ comments likely will prompt some teams to start calling in February about the availability of Barber.
The cap consequences of trading Barber, who signed a long-term deal earlier this year, aren’t presently known. Regardless of the timing of the trade, the entire cap charge would hit the books next season, since 2009 is the last capped year under the current CBA.

So if the acceleration is prohibitive, then it arguably wasn’t all that prudent for Jones to risk creating a problem with a player who could screw up team chemistry in the coming year even more than team chemistry already is screwed up right now.

Then again, given that Barber was drafted by Bill Parcells and that Felix Jones and Choice came after Parcells left town and then a year later raided the front office, our guess is that Jerry Jones would prefer to load the 2009 backfield with Felix Jones and Choice, since both players were added by the current regime.

pft (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/12/08/jerry-jones-calls-out-marion-barber/)

Just a thought and what would it take to get Barber?...I don't like the Cowboys but I respect Barber and love his tough running style.

Oh by the way...Jerry Jones is an idi0t.....

infantrycak
12-08-2008, 12:40 PM
I think one of the biggest fallacies in football is that a short yardage back has to be a big 230+lbs.

All you have to be able to do is hit the hole hard and push the pile. Some of the most effective goal line RB in the history of the league have been smaller guys. Priest Holmes, for example, was a slight 5'9" 213lbs.

Yup--look at the list of guys who have set the single season records--Payton, Emmitt, LT, Holmes.

gwallaia
12-08-2008, 12:43 PM
You rarely see fullbacks carrying the ball from the fullback position. I've always thought is a good play to run to catch the defense off balance.

superdave532
12-08-2008, 12:44 PM
That sounds like a good idea about Leach for now but what about trading for Marion Barber. I know...call me Mr.Crazy Trade Idea Guy if you want..but it looks like Jerry is happy with Felix Jones and Tashard Choice and questions Barber's toughness after Barber didn't want to play injured.....



pft (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/12/08/jerry-jones-calls-out-marion-barber/)

Just a thought and what would it take to get Barber?...I don't like the Cowboys but I respect Barber and love his tough running style.

Oh by the way...Jerry Jones is an idi0t.....

I actually really like that idea. Barber is a hell of a running back, and I can see him doing very well next to Slaton. Imagine the Barberian and Stevie Wonder splitting carries.... Or having both of them in a split back formation of some kind... It'd be nice to have 2 1,000 yard rushers to go along with our pair of 1,000 yard receivers next year, don't you think?

That being said Jerry's going to ask for way too much so it won't happen, just saying I'd be in favor of considering it.

Big Lou
12-08-2008, 01:59 PM
I'm going with Turk as my choice for Short Yardage. Look at that 18 yarder he broke off yesterday!!!!!!

Specnatz
12-08-2008, 01:59 PM
SHORT YARDAGE ONLY:

I would keep Vonta at fullback and put OD in as the runner. Despite his fumble yesterday he always gets yards after first contact. that would provide the punch you need to get 3 + yardsw and into the endzone.

Tedc
12-08-2008, 02:02 PM
Teams ignore him on passing plays. The Packers learned what happens when you do that and he actually catches the ball.

infantrycak
12-08-2008, 02:43 PM
Y'all can add Marion Barber to the list of crap that isn't going to happen. He is in the first year of a contract which had a $12 mil signing bonus--he isn't going anywhere unless Jerry wants to carry $10 mil in dead money.

TimeKiller
12-08-2008, 02:45 PM
I'm with Tedc, run him out on a flat in goalline. He's the last person a D is going to key on when you think of our offense...Andre, Walter, Slaton, Daniels, hell even Schaub can run it in before they account for VL. If he catches it, he's at least sure to hurt someone if not a TD.

Texanmike02
12-08-2008, 02:53 PM
Imagine the Barberian and Stevie Wonder splitting carries

We've already had that. Dayne ate like a barbarian and based on the way he ran, he NEVER saw a hole in the line..

Mike

BigBull17
12-08-2008, 02:54 PM
Y'all can add Marion Barber to the list of crap that isn't going to happen. He is in the first year of a contract which had a $12 mil signing bonus--he isn't going anywhere unless Jerry wants to carry $10 mil in dead money.

Dont you know, the Cowboys have a higher cap than anyone else. They can do whatever they want.

badboy
12-08-2008, 04:25 PM
That sounds like a good idea about Leach for now but what about trading for Marion Barber. I know...call me Mr.Crazy Trade Idea Guy if you want..but it looks like Jerry is happy with Felix Jones and Tashard Choice and questions Barber's toughness after Barber didn't want to play injured.....



pft (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/12/08/jerry-jones-calls-out-marion-barber/)

Just a thought and what would it take to get Barber?...I don't like the Cowboys but I respect Barber and love his tough running style.

Oh by the way...Jerry Jones is an idi0t.....Nope, I don't want any more free agent RBs. Let just select wisely in the coming draft as we did with Slaton and go from there. There will be trade downs and we should be able to pick up another 3rd or 4th and gettign a solid pwr back should be a done deal.

barrett
12-08-2008, 04:38 PM
i never thought the words "...question Barber's toughness" would ever be preceeded by any words other than "no one will ever..."

that's a bunch of hooey. furthermore, a beer commercial.

by the way, totally unrelated, i'd like to remind everyone that i STILL don't think they'll fire Richard Smith.


thank you and good day.

B

Double Barrel
12-08-2008, 04:43 PM
Teams ignore him on passing plays. The Packers learned what happens when you do that and he actually catches the ball.

No doubt, man. That catch yesterday saved our skin. Pinned deep and throwing from the end zone, Leach was one of the unsung heroes.

Texans Pride
12-08-2008, 05:55 PM
So I just called in on the Kubiak show, and asked the question, about having Leach in on short yardage. In a nut shell he said that he doesn't get the "rock" much, but when he does, he usually does something special, so maybe they might have to look at that in the future.

Brando
12-08-2008, 06:10 PM
Y'all can add Marion Barber to the list of crap that isn't going to happen. He is in the first year of a contract which had a $12 mil signing bonus--he isn't going anywhere unless Jerry wants to carry $10 mil in dead money.

:eek: Nevermind...I was just throwing the possibility out there and now it's out the window. I was just dreaming about having one of the best RB's in the league. Alright let's find that Thunder in the draft as stated by badboy.

mussop
12-08-2008, 06:13 PM
I do wish Leech was used more in the running game and the passing game. He seems to make plays when given the chance. I think he could help more in short yardage situations but the real problem this team has is in the red zone. This OL just isnt built for power. If the OL gets pushed back it doesnt matter whos back there. More creative play calling is what is called for.

Brando
12-08-2008, 06:15 PM
Nope, I don't want any more free agent RBs. Let just select wisely in the coming draft as we did with Slaton and go from there. There will be trade downs and we should be able to pick up another 3rd or 4th and gettign a solid pwr back should be a done deal.


That should be on our list going into the draft.

ChampionTexan
12-08-2008, 06:34 PM
I think this may be a case of careful what you wish for.

Two of the guys I always think of when thinking about Slaton's upside are Brian Westbrook, and Warrick Dunn. Other than when they were injured - and now that Dunn's almost 34 - you seldom saw these guys get less than 200 carries (Dunn got close to 300 on a couple of occasions), and they would each throw in a bunch of catches on top of that.

Between what we've seen of Slaton, and the pass game in general (including what I'm guessing will be a larger role for Slaton in future years), I'm not sure that someone else to get significant touches of any kind is a real need. I don't think it will be overly difficult to find a T.J. Duckett or Corel Buckhalter type, and while Mike Alstott was a special guy at the goal-line, and Mike Vick could run the ball a little too, I don't see more guys to touch the ball as a crying need of ours right now.

RagingBull
12-08-2008, 11:23 PM
The Coke Machine scoffs at needing a lead blocker. He'll lead block himself right into the end zone and then proceed to kill some grass with that cannon of a left arm he has on a spike.

That is kind of how I pictured it...No lead blocker. Denver has successfully converted their fullback to tailback out of necessity for Peyton Hillis, so it can't be too long before Kubes tries it. They are mostly running him out of a single back set.

DocBar
12-08-2008, 11:29 PM
i never thought the words "...question Barber's toughness" would ever be preceeded by any words other than "no one will ever..."

that's a bunch of hooey. furthermore, a beer commercial.

by the way, totally unrelated, i'd like to remind everyone that i STILL don't think they'll fire Richard Smith.

thank you and good day.

B That was just mean.

threetoedpete
12-09-2008, 03:18 AM
So I just called in on the Kubiak show, and asked the question, about having Leach in on short yardage. In a nut shell he said that he doesn't get the "rock" much, but when he does, he usually does something special, so maybe they might have to look at that in the future.

What I read behind the lines of the coach speak is that if the fans want to see it, he'll give it to them. I just voted for him ten times for the probowl btw...

But what Kubes knows and what I know is the guy has marginal hands. He made a very difficult catch and a great play Sunday. But no matter how much lipstick you spread on that pig...he still gonna have marginal hands at the end of the day. He's the last guy we want to be giving the football to in critical situations. Traps, swing passes I'm with ya, let him have the rock and beat people up.

Not fourth and short or third and short on critcal downs. I'm telling you guys this is a very bad idea.

He's the hammer . Let him be what he is.

threetoedpete
12-09-2008, 03:44 AM
I think this may be a case of careful what you wish for.

Two of the guys I always think of when thinking about Slaton's upside are Brian Westbrook, and Warrick Dunn. Other than when they were injured - and now that Dunn's almost 34 - you seldom saw these guys get less than 200 carries (Dunn got close to 300 on a couple of occasions), and they would each throw in a bunch of catches on top of that.

Between what we've seen of Slaton, and the pass game in general (including what I'm guessing will be a larger role for Slaton in future years), I'm not sure that someone else to get significant touches of any kind is a real need. I don't think it will be overly difficult to find a T.J. Duckett or Corel Buckhalter type, and while Mike Alstott was a special guy at the goal-line, and Mike Vick could run the ball a little too, I don't see more guys to touch the ball as a crying need of ours right now.


all of those were good points. The counter to that is we don't know yet if Slaton is those guys. What we do know for a fact is when the feild compresses, we aren't worth spit for scoring.

We were 0ne for eleven at one point inside the ten. You can't live with that . I don't care how sold you are on Slaton. He's hurting now. Look at the way he ran in october and watch how he is running now. He's not the same. He's plaing hurt.

The broncos history is wearing guys out. I'd hope for a little more. You're guess is that Slaton will be exactly like Westbrook and Warwick Dunn or Portis. My answer to that why do you need to grind him twenty five touches per game at all to find out if he is ? There's no reasons for it. As you say a power back and another slasher type takes seven to ten touches per game away from him why not ?

He's still going to hit 1200 to 1400 yards at fifteen to twenty touches per game. Why take the risk of grinding the guy up ? Most RBs on average make it about three years. Dominic Davis Williams made it four...Now I'll give you that he started out with a bad knee. But you have nothing but hope backing you up that Slaton can touch the ball 300 plus times per year and stay healthy.

With runing backs in the draft so cheap now, this seems like getting in a big hurry for nothing but risk.


What's that old Joke from the Mississippi comedian Jerry Clower:

Two bulls standing on the hill looking down at the herd of cows. The young bull turns to the old grizzely bull and says: " Hey Pops, lets run down the hill and have sex with a couple of those cows. "

Papa bull turns to the son and says: "No son. Lets walk down hill and have sex with them all. "

there is no need to get in a hurry with Slaton. Lets walk down the hill and go to the big dance. Do 'em all.

Grid
12-09-2008, 05:06 AM
Jerry Jones has depth at running back and beef with Marion Barber.

Its a possibility.

infantrycak
12-09-2008, 10:05 AM
But what Kubes knows and what I know is the guy has marginal hands.

Not that I am endorsing the idea at all, but hands for receiving and hands for carrying the ball are totally different.

Jerry Jones has depth at running back and beef with Marion Barber.

Its a possibility.

Not really. Barber just signed a contract with a $12 mil signing bonus. Doubt Jerry wants $10 mil of his cap dead so he can watch the player on another team.

mussop
12-09-2008, 11:26 AM
That is kind of how I pictured it...No lead blocker. Denver has successfully converted their fullback to tailback out of necessity for Peyton Hillis, so it can't be too long before Kubes tries it. They are mostly running him out of a single back set.

As a big Hillis fan link (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=925360#post925360), I can tell you that there is a big difference in Hillis & Leech. Hillis has the speed and agility of a RB despite having the size of a FB (250#). Leech doesnt have that kind of ability.

BigBull17
12-09-2008, 11:45 AM
That is kind of how I pictured it...No lead blocker. Denver has successfully converted their fullback to tailback out of necessity for Peyton Hillis, so it can't be too long before Kubes tries it. They are mostly running him out of a single back set.

Well, the true Denver system doesnt use a lead blocker FB much, but Leech is so good we cant justify not using him.

nero THE zero
12-11-2008, 09:25 AM
Yup--look at the list of guys who have set the single season records--Payton, Emmitt, LT, Holmes.

Exactly, it's more about being compact than about being big.

LT is 5'10" 221. His BMI is 31.7 Priest Holmes was 5'9" 213 for a BMI of 31.5. MJD is 5'7" 208 BMI 32.6. And Emmitt was 5'9" 216 for 31.9.

Someone I think falls in that mold and is an upcoming FA is the Giants' Derrick Ward. He's 5'11" 228 for a BMI of 31.8. He's a bit taller than the other guys, but he's also thicker which is why his BMI matches up so nicely. He also has very nice hands.

El Tejano
12-11-2008, 09:40 AM
You rarely see fullbacks carrying the ball from the fullback position. I've always thought is a good play to run to catch the defense off balance.

Yeah and in the WCO it is one of the tools. If you remember, The Joe Montana led 49ers used to run Rathman quite a bit.

TimeKiller
12-11-2008, 09:57 AM
He's the hammer . Let him be what he is.

He does sort of have hammers for hands...

If he's making plays though, he should be getting about as much attention as he got against the Packers. Maybe a pass or two a game. Wouldn't mind seeing him run over a few defenders from a screen or something but I don't think they should just start him up with 5 carries a game now. Use him as the "oops-pow-SURPRISE" when teams least expect it because that's what makes him dangerous.

Vinny
12-11-2008, 10:47 AM
No doubt, man. That catch yesterday saved our skin. Pinned deep and throwing from the end zone, Leach was one of the unsung heroes.

Teams ignore him on passing plays. The Packers learned what happens when you do that and he actually catches the ball.
Often times when teams blitz, they come with the man who is supposed to pick up the FB when he releases....this fb pass is essential in the wco because if done right it discourages teams from blitzing as much and filling another gap.

On Leach running the ball...I'm kinda 'eh on the whole idea. FB's tend to seek contact and have a different bodytype than rb's do (think of FB's as smallish guards)...and a rb mentality is to find open space and make guys miss or give them bad angles of attack in short space...different skillsets.

threetoedpete
12-11-2008, 12:10 PM
He does sort of have hammers for hands...

If he's making plays though, he should be getting about as much attention as he got against the Packers. Maybe a pass or two a game. Wouldn't mind seeing him run over a few defenders from a screen or something but I don't think they should just start him up with 5 carries a game now. Use him as the "oops-pow-SURPRISE" when teams least expect it because that's what makes him dangerous.

Look I'm not totally against this, the hammer getting touches. what I'm against is the hammer getting touches in critical situations. Understand the difference ?

I mean we haven't been worth squat on the second series out of the gate all season long. So, on the second series feature Slaton on the toss sweep. Lose five yards doesn't matter. We've spit the bit out on the second series of the game all season long. What it does do is set up the fake on the toss sweep and you can run Leach on a quick hitter fullback trap. I mean I spent my formative years watching Rocky Blier(SP) run the damn thing at the Oilers. He use to kill the Oilers with that trap play. We've got a center who can pull and an OLT getting killed on inside moves...toss sweep and the quick hitter FB trap off the toss sweep, solves a lot of things. No one would love to see the hammer running free in the second level more than I.

infantrycak
12-11-2008, 12:13 PM
On Leach running the ball...I'm kinda 'eh on the whole idea. FB's tend to seek contact and have a different bodytype than rb's do (think of FB's as smallish guards)...and a rb mentality is to find open space and make guys miss or give them bad angles of attack in short space...different skillsets.

Exactly. Big does not equal good at short yardage.

Texan_Bill
12-11-2008, 12:14 PM
Unless your name is Christian Okoye...

RagingBull
12-27-2008, 12:46 AM
Well, Kubiak apparently reads the forum. Leach ran over some fools from the one, just as we discussed.

mexican_texan
12-27-2008, 01:05 AM
I'd love to have Corell Buckhalter from the Eagles. If the name sounds familiar, it's because he, not Westbrook, ran all over us two years ago.

gg no re
12-27-2008, 01:13 AM
Unless your name is Christian Okoye...
until you hit someone who hits harder :eek:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c173/ferrari_fx/GIFs/atwatergif.gif