PDA

View Full Version : Duane Brown VS Other Rookie Tackles


Ali4Real
12-08-2008, 12:54 AM
I have been watching Duane Brown and I am impressed with him because he seems like a hard worker with good character. His footwork is getting better and he should only get better from here on out...hopefully.

I was just wondering how well he stacks up against other rookie tackles such as Jeff Otah, Chris Williams, Jake Long, etc...


:wild: = I AM PUMPED FOR THE TITANS GAME...BRING IT !!!

Marcus
12-08-2008, 03:17 AM
Well, considering that Duane Brown has to go up against Mario Williams in practice every day, I'd say his learning curve will be fairly short on the way to becoming a decent left tackle.

dalemurphy
12-08-2008, 09:00 AM
I have been watching Duane Brown and I am impressed with him because he seems like a hard worker with good character. His footwork is getting better and he should only get better from here on out...hopefully.

I was just wondering how well he stacks up against other rookie tackles such as Jeff Otah, Chris Williams, Jake Long, etc...


:wild: = I AM PUMPED FOR THE TITANS GAME...BRING IT !!!


Brown has all the tools, he's intense, a hard worker, never been injured, coachable... so, I'm thrilled with the guy. I also like that a kid as young as he is so accountable to his mistakes. He clearly really wants to be good.

BuffaloglennTX
12-08-2008, 09:07 AM
Brown has all the tools, he's intense, a hard worker, never been injured, coachable... so, I'm thrilled with the guy. I also like that a kid as young as he is so accountable to his mistakes. He clearly really wants to be good.

Not to mention his athleticism - watch him when he gets to run block and gets into the linebackers and secondary. He can really run! He's still learning but it looks to me like he will be around for a long time.

Number19
12-08-2008, 05:43 PM
Does anyone know a web site where stats for OL'men are posted ( sacks given up )?

GuerillaBlack
12-08-2008, 05:51 PM
Does anyone know a web site where stats for OL'men are posted ( sacks given up )?

NFL.com?

TexansFanatic
12-08-2008, 06:04 PM
Does anyone know a web site where stats for OL'men are posted ( sacks given up )?

Indeed, that's one of the things that prevents armchair experts like me from being able to judge one o-lineman from another. There aren't any commonly referenced numbers you can grab onto such as number of holding penalties. Number of sacks allowed. Number of hurries allowed. Number of pancake blocks. Number of times blocking more than one defender on a single play. Etc.

It's difficult to feign football knowledge without these shortcuts. :shades:

mussop
12-08-2008, 06:33 PM
He has lived up to my expectaitions. Of course i didnt expect much. He still needs to get better.

Vinny
12-08-2008, 08:00 PM
Brown has disappointed me at times but I think he can hang in there long term...I've seen him play well enough too often to think otherwise....I sure wish Clady was available. I don't think Ryan Clady (R - Broncos) has given up a sack this season....dude is a beast.

YoungTexanFan
12-08-2008, 08:09 PM
Duane Brown is the reason Schaub was injured. Brown was supposed to be an unbelievable athlete and he can't condition himself enough to last a full game. He has never been good at any level, and that trend continues. He may eventually pan out, and I will hold onto that slim hope. However, those OT's that take years to develop do so on the sideline and are taken in like the 4th round (see the Bronco style of OL drafting). Essentially, he isn't good enough right now to do what he is being paid to do. He wasn't a first round talent, and he has done nothing but prove that all year. The hope is that he can be molded, but my question is in these next 2 years while we wait for that to happen (if we are lucky), who are we passing up that is legitimately worth first round money and a starting spot?

Marcus
12-08-2008, 10:26 PM
Brown has all the tools, he's intense, a hard worker, never been injured, coachable... so, I'm thrilled with the guy. I also like that a kid as young as he is so accountable to his mistakes. He clearly really wants to be good.

Not to mention his athleticism - watch him when he gets to run block and gets into the linebackers and secondary. He can really run! He's still learning but it looks to me like he will be around for a long time.

Duane Brown is the reason Schaub was injured. Brown was supposed to be an unbelievable athlete and he can't condition himself enough to last a full game. He has never been good at any level, and that trend continues. He may eventually pan out, and I will hold onto that slim hope. However, those OT's that take years to develop do so on the sideline and are taken in like the 4th round (see the Bronco style of OL drafting). Essentially, he isn't good enough right now to do what he is being paid to do. He wasn't a first round talent, and he has done nothing but prove that all year. The hope is that he can be molded, but my question is in these next 2 years while we wait for that to happen (if we are lucky), who are we passing up that is legitimately worth first round money and a starting spot?

Hehe . . . nice to see that everyone has a good opinion of him. lol:

DocBar
12-08-2008, 11:23 PM
Well, considering that Duane Brown has to go up against Mario Williams in practice every day, I'd say his learning curve will be fairly short on the way to becoming a decent left tackle. I bet he's glad he doesn't have to face Reggie Bush and Vince Young every day. Talk about making a LT look bad...

Duane Brown is the reason Schaub was injured. Brown was supposed to be an unbelievable athlete and he can't condition himself enough to last a full game. He has never been good at any level, and that trend continues. He may eventually pan out, and I will hold onto that slim hope. However, those OT's that take years to develop do so on the sideline and are taken in like the 4th round (see the Bronco style of OL drafting). Essentially, he isn't good enough right now to do what he is being paid to do. He wasn't a first round talent, and he has done nothing but prove that all year. The hope is that he can be molded, but my question is in these next 2 years while we wait for that to happen (if we are lucky), who are we passing up that is legitimately worth first round money and a starting spot? I though Schaub was injured because of late/low hits by Jared Allen that he was fined for. I must've missed something. Brown is doing a pretty good job this year. LT is no cakewalk for a vet, much less a rookie learning a completely new scheme.

awtysst
12-08-2008, 11:29 PM
Brown has disappointed me at times but I think he can hang in there long term...I've seen him play well enough too often to think otherwise....I sure wish Clady was available. I don't think Ryan Clady (R - Broncos) has given up a sack this season....dude is a beast.

Clady is an absolute beast and was the best fit for this type of system. He dominated for years in a similar Bronco system and when he came up to the next level he was ready. The Broncos would have needed to have completely missed four years worth of tape not to have taken him.

Brown has been decent as a starting rookie LT. Very few rook LT start out like a Joe Thomas or Ryan Clady. I think that Brown has made great strides this year. I remember earlier this year when he telegraphed running vs passing plays based on how he was lining up. He has also had a trial by fire by having to face some of the premier DEs in the league. I think by facing Mario every day, more seasoning, and more time with Alex Gibbs, he will become our solid franchise LT.

RagingBull
12-09-2008, 12:49 AM
I have to +1 Clady. I have season tickets to the Broncos and he has not given up a sack so far and absolutely dominates whoever he plays against. That guy is awesome. In many ways though, the Texans offense if ahead of the Broncos. Broncos line and QB are better but the receivers, TE, and backs are better on the Texans. Both of their D's stink, although the texans are showing signs of improvement at least.

threetoedpete
12-09-2008, 02:38 AM
Brown has disappointed me at times but I think he can hang in there long term...I've seen him play well enough too often to think otherwise....I sure wish Clady was available. I don't think Ryan Clady (R - Broncos) has given up a sack this season....dude is a beast.

As compaired to Seth Wand....Victor Riley, and Efferan ?

If they wanted Clady they should of moved up and got him....Alberts.

Course that means there would be no secretariate right now.

Same deal here YTF....package your ones for this year and next and go get Smith. Or Ohre.

Easy for you two to ***** about him what I remember is '06 and you two telling me how crazy I was for wanting to drop down and take D'brickasaw. They needed one for six years and they've taken one... give the guy some room to grow. If you're not willing to spend the draft ammo to get one stow the bitching.

Can't have it both ways you two. Can't slum in the third and hope to hit a miracle. they can go to a super bowl with the guy. that is all that matters.

Goatcheese
12-09-2008, 06:18 AM
Jeff Otah has been a monster. You see him destroy people at the line, and then end up blocking 20-30 yards downfield leading the runner.

So much for being slow.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d2bc47

nunusguy
12-09-2008, 06:53 AM
Jeff Otah has been a monster. You see him destroy people at the line, and then end up blocking 20-30 yards downfield leading the runner.

So much for being slow.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d2bc47
I dunno, but is Otah really in this conversation since he's a RT ?
Speaking of RTs, rookie #1 pick Long with the 'Phins (who happens to be playing on the left side this year), is reportedly the leading vote-getter in Pro Bowl ballots for LTs. How come nobody mentioned him ?
And for those who don't like Brown, the main reason we have him and not another LT or player from the Draft is because Kubiak was so desperate to win that exhibition game in Reliant against the Jags last year.

YoungTexanFan
12-09-2008, 11:52 AM
Same deal here YTF....package your ones for this year and next and go get Smith. Or Ohre.

Easy for you two to ***** about him what I remember is '06 and you two telling me how crazy I was for wanting to drop down and take D'brickasaw. They needed one for six years and they've taken one... give the guy some room to grow. If you're not willing to spend the draft ammo to get one stow the bitching.

Can't have it both ways you two. Can't slum in the third and hope to hit a miracle. they can go to a super bowl with the guy. that is all that matters.

I'm assuming you are trying to take an indirect jab at me. I dare you to look at any thread from that draft. I wanted to take D'Brick #1. Screw the trading down and risking it junk. Mario was my #2 option, and I am glad to see him every week in our uniform and not in our backfield.

infantrycak
12-09-2008, 11:54 AM
Not worth a new thread, but FYI:

From Stats, Inc. to date:

Duane Brown - 10.5 sacks, 2 false starts, 1 hold
Ephraim Salaam - 1 sack, 2 false starts
Chester Pitts - 2.5 sacks
Chris Meyers - 1 false start, 1 hold
Mike Briesel - 1 false start
Eric Winston - 4.5 sacks, 4 false starts

That's 18.5 sacks assigned to the line out of 26 so 7.5 sacks have been assigned to the QB, RBs and TEs but they don't list those separately.

Carr Bombed
12-09-2008, 11:54 AM
I think he's showing promise.

YoungTexanFan
12-09-2008, 12:02 PM
I bet he's glad he doesn't have to face Reggie Bush and Vince Young every day. Talk about making a LT look bad...

I though Schaub was injured because of late/low hits by Jared Allen that he was fined for. I must've missed something. Brown is doing a pretty good job this year. LT is no cakewalk for a vet, much less a rookie learning a completely new scheme.

Allen is classless. It was his late hits that technically knocked Matt out for a few weeks. However, if you look at the tape(s) of the hits, you will see Brown being destroyed. One of the hits was Allen just coming off the edge and blowing by Brown. Allen barely had to make contact with Brown on the play. Allen put his hands up to engage and then seemed to think to himself "What am I doing, this guy isn't going to engage me, I'll just keeping running!"

So yes, you are right: Allen was fined properly for his hits and he has since proven himself to be even more of a scumbag player. However, Allen shouldn't have been in those spots so easily, and he wouldn't have been without Duane Brown.

What I've been trying to say is this: I have not problem with Duane Brown being drafted by us. My problem stems from the fact that he is being paid first round money and was handed the starting job right away. Brown was and STILL FREAKING IS, a project. You do not take a project player in the first round unless you are already good and have no actual need for said position to make an impact. Every team drafts a guy like Duane Brown, and the Texans should draft guys like him every few years, sure. However, the good teams do not draft the Duane Brown's in the first round and lock him into a multi-million year deal with a huge signing bonus. I have hope for Brown to develop eventually, maybe even before his next contract, but on almost every other team, Duane Brown rides the bench until he is actually ready. That is my gripe. I had Brown graded in the 3rd round, and I actually watched some of his games at VT. He never had any success in college, and while those inabilities can be covered up and corrected in the NFL (that's the hope with projects at least), they do not happen in the first training camp.

YoungTexanFan
12-09-2008, 12:05 PM
I think he's showing promise.

How?!?!?!?! He has regressed since he was drafted. He has potential, we all knew that on draft day, but he has been showing less each week it seems. His "athleticism" isn't even good enough to allow him to stay on the field for the entire game like the rest of the offensive linemen who weren't lauded for their sheer athleticism coming out of college. This just irks me the wrong way.

Still, I will be fair and hold out hope. He will get another year or two before I will actually call him as a player a bust.

Jackie Chiles
12-09-2008, 12:11 PM
Allen is classless. It was his late hits that technically knocked Matt out for a few weeks. However, if you look at the tape(s) of the hits, you will see Brown being destroyed.

You will see both Brown and Salaam being abused. Look, I agree with quite a bit of the stuff you say about Brown but this is the 2nd time that you have credited the Allen hits solely on him and its just not accurate. If you want to make the case that since Duane is not conditioned enough to be the starter for a full game so we have to go with Salaam, that is acceptable to me but Duane was not blocking Allen on the 2nd hit.

76Texan
12-09-2008, 12:11 PM
D'Brick allowed ten sacks in his rookie year and got ROY honor.

And he had allowed Mario to get to Pennington for a good shot (not a cheap shot.)

Midway through the third quarter, Williams escaped Ferguson’s arms, found a shaft of light between Ferguson and Pennington, and ran through it.

Williams reached for Pennington’s green and white jersey and slammed him to the ground just as Pennington delivered a pass to Jerricho Cotchery.

It was not a sack, but the play registered throughout the crowd of 76,596 and with Ferguson.

“There is no play designed where Chad gets hit,” Ferguson said. “That one play, it ruins my day, personally.”

Pennington remained on the ground for about a minute before rising to his feet.

infantrycak
12-09-2008, 12:16 PM
Allen is classless. It was his late hits that technically knocked Matt out for a few weeks. However, if you look at the tape(s) of the hits, you will see Brown being destroyed. One of the hits was Allen just coming off the edge and blowing by Brown. Allen barely had to make contact with Brown on the play.

I don't remember the 2nd play, but on one Brown knew it was going to be a quick play and just let Allen run himself out of the play. You see LT's do that every weekend around the league. Heck you see it happen to Mario all the time. Allen just came back in with the cheap shot.

However, the good teams do not draft the Duane Brown's in the first round and lock him into a multi-million year deal with a huge signing bonus.

Brown has a cap hit of $1.1 mil this season and $1.4 mil next year. That is dirt cheap by NFL LT standards.

His "athleticism" isn't even good enough to allow him to stay on the field for the entire game like the rest of the offensive linemen who weren't lauded for their sheer athleticism coming out of college. This just irks me the wrong way.

Conditioning and athleticism are two different things.

76Texan
12-09-2008, 12:21 PM
A write-up from the Bleacher Report in 2007.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/46060-jonesferguson-and-other-jets-can-they-live-up-to-the-hype

D’brickashaw Ferguson- Ferguson was the 4th overall selection by the NY jets in the 2006 NFL draft Man was I stoked. Ferguson was an awesome tackle in college and he was born in my hometown New York, NY. However, during his rookie season the NFL game showed some weak points to Ferguson’s game. While Fergusons quick, he was getting beat of the snap by defensive ends and muscled around by bigger lineman. I brushed it off as rookie mistakes but in 2007, I noticed brick getting beat by those same weaknesses, though he did make improvements in his run protection. I’m hoping he becomes a solid tackle and a main stay here with the jets. lineman usually take a little longer to develop so im thinking he will get better, I just hope he gets better this year because he is a big part of this offensive lineman.

hot pickle
12-09-2008, 12:26 PM
D'Brick allowed ten sacks in his rookie year and got ROY honor.

And he had allowed Mario to get to Pennington for a good shot (not a cheap shot.)

Midway through the third quarter, Williams escaped Ferguson’s arms, found a shaft of light between Ferguson and Pennington, and ran through it.

Williams reached for Pennington’s green and white jersey and slammed him to the ground just as Pennington delivered a pass to Jerricho Cotchery.

It was not a sack, but the play registered throughout the crowd of 76,596 and with Ferguson.

“There is no play designed where Chad gets hit,” Ferguson said. “That one play, it ruins my day, personally.”

Pennington remained on the ground for about a minute before rising to his feet.


didnt pennington say that, that was one of the hardest hits hes ever taken?? or was that another qb that got hit by mario.... and i dont really have an opinion on brown.... hes had to go up against some of the best DE in the leaque... and hes a rookie... so ill wait till next season to say something

Goldensilence
12-09-2008, 12:31 PM
Not Joe Thomas by any means but all things considered we needed a LT and had so many holes in the team we couldn't afford the cost to trade up. The KC/Minn trade screwed us out of Brandon Albert.

He's had a baptism by fire to say the least this season and if we can get him out of it better conditioned and his confidence intact we'll be good. He's gotten better as the year has progressed. I think the problem with a guy like Brown is that he came out with a good class of LT and some rookies are going to be expected to come in and play like Joe. Got to grade them on their own merits. IS he going to be this tag line "franchise positional player"? Can't say for sure but we need him to at least keep whomever is playing QB upright.

badboy
12-09-2008, 12:33 PM
Clady is an absolute beast and was the best fit for this type of system. He dominated for years in a similar Bronco system and when he came up to the next level he was ready. The Broncos would have needed to have completely missed four years worth of tape not to have taken him.

Brown has been decent as a starting rookie LT. Very few rook LT start out like a Joe Thomas or Ryan Clady. I think that Brown has made great strides this year. I remember earlier this year when he telegraphed running vs passing plays based on how he was lining up. He has also had a trial by fire by having to face some of the premier DEs in the league. I think by facing Mario every day, more seasoning, and more time with Alex Gibbs, he will become our solid franchise LT.I was hoping to go with Clady and Ian Johnson. Clay went 4 picks too early and Johnson did not come out. I think we did all right getting two starters at a need positon for what was in effect the 16th pick. Also got Dominique Barber who still might develop into a solid safety or us. I am hoping we can have similar trade results with our 1st round in next draft. http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2008/04/a_stunning_trade_by_texans_wit.html

beerlover
12-09-2008, 12:40 PM
Gibbs pick, nice 1st rd. starting LT. Has been Texans #1 need since 2002 when Tony Boselli retired without playing a down, meaning since inception.

there was one hell of a stampede to draft all the tackles by Texans selection. then Rick Smith rolled the dice trading that pick to the Ravens (Flacco) switching 1st's (#26) & picked up Slaton in 3rd (#89).

Brown is holding his own even stacked up against the best, costs less & with Gibbs invested/coaching higher ceiling than most. I'm very thankfull the Texans finally addressed LT with 1st rd. talent, been bitching for years, now I can focus my attention elsewhere & just let Duane "franchise" Brown develop :)

Runner
12-09-2008, 12:52 PM
Not worth a new thread, but FYI:

From Stats, Inc. to date:

Duane Brown - 10.5 sacks, 2 false starts, 1 hold

Interesting. He has numbers comparable to Seth Wand with about 2/3 the snaps and without David Carr at QB. At least he's a first round project rather than a third round project. That way he'll get three years of playing time to develop instead of one. Maybe that first round status will stop the carousal at LT.

mexican_texan
12-09-2008, 12:53 PM
Not worth a new thread, but FYI:

From Stats, Inc. to date:

Duane Brown - 10.5 sacks, 2 false starts, 1 hold
Ephraim Salaam - 1 sack, 2 false starts
Chester Pitts - 2.5 sacks
Chris Meyers - 1 false start, 1 hold
Mike Briesel - 1 false start
Eric Winston - 4.5 sacks, 4 false starts

That's 18.5 sacks assigned to the line out of 26 so 7.5 sacks have been assigned to the QB, RBs and TEs but they don't list those separately.
I call BS. No sacks credited to Myers and Briesel?

76Texan
12-09-2008, 01:57 PM
I call BS. No sacks credited to Myers and Briesel?
Sometimes, I don't quite agree with how they record these sacks.

Let say, sure the tackles got beat off the edge, but then the QB doesn't have room to step up in the pocket 'cause the guys in the middle were pushed back a bit too much.

Or sometimes the QB "should" know that if it's been more than 2 secs, he needs to be aware and find away out or get rid of the ball, unless he knows for sure that the coast is clear. Like there were 2 sacks on Brown in the Steelers game in right around 3 secs.
But I guess sometimes the QBs try to stay and make a play, knowing that you will get hit or sacked, especially when you're down by 3-4 TDs.
(usually, it only makes things worse, seems to me, but oh well!)

Carr Bombed
12-09-2008, 03:16 PM
How?!?!?!?! He has regressed since he was drafted. He has potential, we all knew that on draft day, but he has been showing less each week it seems. His "athleticism" isn't even good enough to allow him to stay on the field for the entire game like the rest of the offensive linemen who weren't lauded for their sheer athleticism coming out of college. This just irks me the wrong way.

Still, I will be fair and hold out hope. He will get another year or two before I will actually call him as a player a bust.

He shows flashes of what he can be as a finished product, nobody in their right mind knew this kid was going to come in from day one and be a lockdown LT.....he's going to have to be molded and groomed into the position. Having said that, he does play the hardest position on the line for the third best offense in the league and he has blocked for a 1,000 yard rusher with many of big runs coming off his side. The kid didn't even play the position that long in college, give him time before you pick fork him outta town. Hell it's not like we haven't had worse OTs starting at that position......to be honest he isn't that worse than Salaam as a full time starter which in the end sadly makes him one of our best LTs in our teams history and he's only a rookie. Is he the best rookie LT this year.......no, is he Robert Gallery as a LT...hell no.

YoungTexanFan
12-09-2008, 03:35 PM
He shows flashes of what he can be as a finished product, nobody in their right mind knew this kid was going to come in from day one and be a lockdown LT.....he's going to have to be molded and groomed into the position. Having said that, he does play the hardest position on the line for the third best offense in the league and he has blocked for a 1,000 yard rusher with many of big runs coming off his side. The kid didn't even play the position that long in college, give him time before you pick fork him outta town. Hell it's not like we haven't had worse OTs starting at that position......to be honest he isn't that worse than Salaam as a full time starter which in the end sadly makes him one of our best LTs in our teams history and he's only a rookie. Is he the best rookie LT this year.......no, is he Robert Gallery as a LT...hell no.

I clearly said in the post you quoted that I will give him time to pan out. Every player deserves more than one year to be declared a "bust". My gripe is not that he is on our team, but more so that he was handed the starting job with no questions asked (Carr anyone?) and that he was a first round pick. When you talk about how he needs to be molded and groomed, that is what most teams do with their projects as they sit behind a vet (Salaam) and actually develop. I guess I'm much more so bashing the front office and our inept player development department and the coaching staff for forcing him into the lineup. I compare Duane Brown to Seth Wand; both players are "athletic" and have the size to play the position. Neither was ready to play when they were put into the lineup and both were considered projects when drafted. The main difference is that Wand was a 3rd rounder and Duane was a 1st rounder.

YoungTexanFan
12-09-2008, 03:38 PM
Interesting. He has numbers comparable to Seth Wand with about 2/3 the snaps and without David Carr at QB. At least he's a first round project rather than a third round project. That way he'll get three years of playing time to develop instead of one. Maybe that first round status will stop the carousal at LT.

I really like this post. I'm going to rep you in a second. I used your comparison to Wand earlier. However, I don't think that level of project should be our first round pick. I think the first round status will stop the carousal, but I don't know if it should. With that first round status comes the expectancy of starting, and he clearly wasn't ready for that this year.

YoungTexanFan
12-09-2008, 03:40 PM
He's had a baptism by fire to say the least this season

That has worked out for us great before.

Signed,
David "Mr. Mittens" Carr

b0ng
12-09-2008, 03:50 PM
Well if you're going to judge by going against other rookie tackles I'd say he's better than Chris Williams, I think he's more useful to us than Jeff Otah would be (He's a RT), and just better than Gosder Cherilius. Now Clady has looked pretty damn good, and I'd say Clady has been better than Jake Long. I'm not very sure about how Sam Baker is doing, but I'd guess it's pretty good. The big uglies usually don't get a lot of cred.

I'd stick Brown in the middle of the pack. Better than Otah, Cherilius and Williams. Possibly as good as Baker, and not as good as CLady and Long.

But those hammering him on letting Jared Allen get a few cheap shots are just crazy. I know Brown has had his ups and downs, but on a whole, since he's been here, the line has been pretty good. Count that he's just a rookie and I'm definitely not at all frightened about him being the starting LT next year.

I think some people are being waaaaay overboard in their harshness.

awtysst
12-09-2008, 03:54 PM
Not worth a new thread, but FYI:

From Stats, Inc. to date:

Duane Brown - 10.5 sacks, 2 false starts, 1 hold
Ephraim Salaam - 1 sack, 2 false starts
Chester Pitts - 2.5 sacks
Chris Meyers - 1 false start, 1 hold
Mike Briesel - 1 false start
Eric Winston - 4.5 sacks, 4 false starts

That's 18.5 sacks assigned to the line out of 26 so 7.5 sacks have been assigned to the QB, RBs and TEs but they don't list those separately.


It would be interesting to see a game by game breakdown of that. Didn't he give up something like 3-4 sacks on game 1 vs the Steelers and then another 2 or 3 against the Titans in game 2? If so, that means in the first 2 games he gave up half the sacks for the season. Ie, he would be improving.

Goatcheese
12-09-2008, 03:55 PM
One of these things is not like the others.

Duane Brown (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8803&team=34) 10.5 sacks 2 false starts 1 Hold
Chester Pitts (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5936&team=34) 2.5 sacks
Chris Myers (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7376&team=34) 1 hold 1 false start
Mike Brisiel (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8098&team=34) 2 Sacks 2 holds 1 false start
Eric Winston (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7815&team=34) 4.5 sacks 4 false starts

Ephraim Salaam (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=4428&team=34) 2007 10 sacks 3 holds 3 false starts 2008 1 sack 2 false starts

Other 1st round Rookies
Jeff Otah (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8796&team=29) 4 sacks 4 false starts 1 hold
Ryan Clady (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8789&team=7) .5 sack 1 false start 1 hold
Jake Long (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8778&team=15) 2.5 sacks 3 false starts 2 holds
Branden Albert (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8792&team=12) 3.5 sacks
Sam Baker 5 starts no sacks no penalties
Chris Williams No starts no stats

Only Otah and Baker were available at #18.

drewmar74
12-09-2008, 04:14 PM
Only Otah and Baker were available at #18.

And Baker missed some time with a blown disk in his back....

infantrycak
12-09-2008, 04:56 PM
It would be interesting to see a game by game breakdown of that. Didn't he give up something like 3-4 sacks on game 1 vs the Steelers and then another 2 or 3 against the Titans in game 2? If so, that means in the first 2 games he gave up half the sacks for the season. Ie, he would be improving.

Yes he gave up most of his sacks in the first two games. Starting your NFL career against a guy .5 sacks back from the lead in the NFL (who you also end up playing against on the way to playing 3 of the top 4 guys) isn't exactly the easiest career start.

76Texan
12-09-2008, 05:22 PM
I've seen many games where the Dolphins put Long on the right side in the wildcat formation, probably to give him a breather now and then.

And a couple of weeks back, I was studying him in the game agaisnt the Pats.
He was not in there for the later part of the third quarter and also in the fourth when the Dolphins scored that TD to make the score look respectable.

He did come back later on and looked to be out of gas.
Must be that time of year for rookie!

At any rate, most of us on this board was wanting either Clady or Long pre-draft. I preferred Clady 'cause I think Boise State also run some form of ZBS.
But we know that we're not going to draft that high.

mexican_texan
12-09-2008, 07:33 PM
I clearly said in the post you quoted that I will give him time to pan out. Every player deserves more than one year to be declared a "bust". My gripe is not that he is on our team, but more so that he was handed the starting job with no questions asked (Carr anyone?) and that he was a first round pick. When you talk about how he needs to be molded and groomed, that is what most teams do with their projects as they sit behind a vet (Salaam) and actually develop. I guess I'm much more so bashing the front office and our inept player development department and the coaching staff for forcing him into the lineup. I compare Duane Brown to Seth Wand; both players are "athletic" and have the size to play the position. Neither was ready to play when they were put into the lineup and both were considered projects when drafted. The main difference is that Wand was a 3rd rounder and Duane was a 1st rounder.
From what I remember, he beat out Salaam in the preseason.

mexican_texan
12-09-2008, 07:38 PM
Yes he gave up most of his sacks in the first two games. Starting your NFL career against a guy .5 sacks back from the lead in the NFL (who you also end up playing against on the way to playing 3 of the top 4 guys) isn't exactly the easiest career start.
Right, he's gone up against the best pass rushers in the league in James Harrisson, Porter, Allen, Freeney, VandenBosh, and Baltimore's stable of defenders. I've seen top tier tackles get owned by those guys.

ObsiWan
12-09-2008, 10:48 PM
Brown has disappointed me at times but I think he can hang in there long term...I've seen him play well enough too often to think otherwise....I sure wish Clady was available. I don't think Ryan Clady (R - Broncos) has given up a sack this season....dude is a beast.

Found some info here... (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/players.asp)

Clady's stats:
Year Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks Allwd Yds
2008..Den.13..13...3....20.......1............1... ...0.50.......3.00

I wonder how much of that "effectiveness" is Clady's talent and how much of is due to the fact that Cutler rolls out of the pocket - away from Clady's side - quite a bit in Denver's offense. ...just wondering

Edit:
Never mind, you guys beat me to it.

threetoedpete
12-10-2008, 12:50 AM
One of these things is not like the others.

Duane Brown (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8803&team=34) 10.5 sacks 2 false starts 1 Hold
Chester Pitts (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5936&team=34) 2.5 sacks
Chris Myers (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7376&team=34) 1 hold 1 false start
Mike Brisiel (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8098&team=34) 2 Sacks 2 holds 1 false start
Eric Winston (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7815&team=34) 4.5 sacks 4 false starts

Ephraim Salaam (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=4428&team=34) 2007 10 sacks 3 holds 3 false starts 2008 1 sack 2 false starts

Other 1st round Rookies
Jeff Otah (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8796&team=29) 4 sacks 4 false starts 1 hold
Ryan Clady (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8789&team=7) .5 sack 1 false start 1 hold
Jake Long (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8778&team=15) 2.5 sacks 3 false starts 2 holds
Branden Albert (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8792&team=12) 3.5 sacks
Sam Baker 5 starts no sacks no penalties
Chris Williams No starts no stats

Only Otah and Baker were available at #18.


If life were fair, Clady would be the rookie of the year.

threetoedpete
12-10-2008, 12:52 AM
I've seen many games where the Dolphins put Long on the right side in the wildcat formation, probably to give him a breather now and then.

And a couple of weeks back, I was studying him in the game agaisnt the Pats.
He was not in there for the later part of the third quarter and also in the fourth when the Dolphins scored that TD to make the score look respectable.

He did come back later on and looked to be out of gas.
Must be that time of year for rookie!

At any rate, most of us on this board was wanting either Clady or Long pre-draft. I preferred Clady 'cause I think Boise State also run some form of ZBS.
But we know that we're not going to draft that high.

the wild cat is an over load with both tackles on one side of the ball. Defense doesn't adust to the over load you've got a natural swinging gate.

The Pencil Neck
12-10-2008, 10:36 AM
the wild cat is an over load with both tackles on one side of the ball. Defense doesn't adust to the over load you've got a natural swinging gate.

I could be mistaken but my understanding is that the wildcat isn't about the overload. The Ravens use the overloaded line from time to time and it's not a wildcat. The wildcat is about the snap to a potential runner with the QB lined up as an outside receiver and the runner has an option of handing off to a motion man, running it himself, or... other things.

Runner
12-10-2008, 08:19 PM
Yes he gave up most of his sacks in the first two games. Starting your NFL career against a guy .5 sacks back from the lead in the NFL (who you also end up playing against on the way to playing 3 of the top 4 guys) isn't exactly the easiest career start.

I wonder why Kubiak started Spencer and Brown immediately instead of giving them some part time work behind a veteran like Wand or Salaam. Rookies at other positions aren't forced to start immediately.

They may have felt compelled to start Brown since he was a first rounder, but Spencer didn't have that hanging over his head. They didn't start Winston at right tackle immediately either. LT is a position that takes a while to build some NFL savvy; watching from the bench a few games might help.

In Spencer's case, had they delayed is start he wouldn't have broken his leg. How's that for hindsight!

DocBar
12-10-2008, 08:33 PM
I wonder why Kubiak started Spencer and Brown immediately instead of giving them some part time work behind a veteran like Wand or Salaam. Rookies at other positions aren't forced to start immediately.

They may have felt compelled to start Brown since he was a first rounder, but Spencer didn't have that hanging over his head. They didn't start Winston at right tackle immediately either. LT is a position that takes a while to build some NFL savvy; watching from the bench a few games might help.

In Spencer's case, had they delayed is start he wouldn't have broken his leg. How's that for hindsight! Good point. Too bad hindsight is a lot clearer.

infantrycak
12-10-2008, 08:44 PM
I wonder why Kubiak started Spencer and Brown immediately instead of giving them some part time work behind a veteran like Wand or Salaam. Rookies at other positions aren't forced to start immediately.

They may have felt compelled to start Brown since he was a first rounder, but Spencer didn't have that hanging over his head. They didn't start Winston at right tackle immediately either. LT is a position that takes a while to build some NFL savvy; watching from the bench a few games might help.

In Spencer's case, had they delayed is start he wouldn't have broken his leg. How's that for hindsight!

Well I guess (subject to other theories to be proposed) this is where you get to be glass half full v. glass half empty. I could make an argument the randomness of starting 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks means they are picking the best player based on their performance in training camp and pre-season--doesn't mean they are right, just that is what they are trying to do. Plenty of other theories too--Pitts out of desperation, Wand demoted due to personality conflict, Riley promoted due to anal cranial insertion, etc. WTFK

76Texan
12-11-2008, 02:58 PM
I could be mistaken but my understanding is that the wildcat isn't about the overload. The Ravens use the overloaded line from time to time and it's not a wildcat. The wildcat is about the snap to a potential runner with the QB lined up as an outside receiver and the runner has an option of handing off to a motion man, running it himself, or... other things.
True, about the intention of the wild cat, as well as the use of the LT on the right side as an overload.

I know that the Browns use Thomas on the right side once in a while as well.
And when Sherman was with the Packers, he used that option, too.
But neither ran the wildcat.

But 3TP was also right about the advantage of the 2 tackles on one side in the wildcat formation, usually on the playside.
(Not that the Dolphins use the double tackles all the times, only most of the times.)

What they did is to also use one of their big TEs as a HB on the play side.
That is really a load for the defenders to take on.
And if we don't adjust, they can run us to the ground.

The Texans fared so so (besides that one busted coverage for a TD) against the seven runs. (3 of them would likely have had better results with a LB superior than Greenwood.)

This wildcat thing can be a fun thing to study in the off-season. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

76Texan
12-11-2008, 03:12 PM
Well I guess (subject to other theories to be proposed) this is where you get to be glass half full v. glass half empty. I could make an argument the randomness of starting 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks means they are picking the best player based on their performance in training camp and pre-season--doesn't mean they are right, just that is what they are trying to do. Plenty of other theories too--Pitts out of desperation, Wand demoted due to personality conflict, Riley promoted due to anal cranial insertion, etc. WTFK
Wasn't there a plan to have Winston play as a swing tackle?