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Corrosion
01-04-2005, 02:22 PM
With all the complaints / concerns being pointed twards the OLB's its obvious to me they dont deserve as much heat as they have gotten . Looking for someone to point the finger at ...... here's a couple of worthy candidates

Gary Walker had 6.5 sacks in 02 and just 0.5 since . I think this points to the fact his injury in 03 is a much larger concern than was first suspected .
Age and injury have taken their toll ..... he's a has been.


Jay Foreman ..... Laid an EGG in the sack column for the season . not to mention the fact he is relatively ineffective against the run at the line of scrimage , most of his tackles tend to be 5+ yards beyond the line . Foreman is either not suited to the Texans scheeme or just plain not good enough ...... im leaning twards the latter.

For all the Carr bashers , its pretty damn tough to throw a pass from your backside much less an accurate one . Carr spent more time on his back or running for his life than standing in the pocket . His numbers are better than i expect with the problems in the O-Line .

Seth Wand ..... He has potential to be a stud LT but also has potential to get DC blindsided @ any time . Lets hope the wand expiriment is over atleast for now
Steve McKinney ..... shouldnt be the starter , he's a backup / long snapper (If that)

Z. Wiegert played pretty well when he was playing and not injuried

Chester Pitts im not sold on one way or another , kinda tough to gage considering he plays between Mckinney and Wand ..... I dont envy his position

Todd Wade wasnt bad but wasnt what we all expected when he came here from Miami . Kinda like the team as a whole , lotta expectations left unfulfilled

M. Bruener ..... hands of stone , Without the great O-line in Pittsburg he looks like a very average blocker

Billy Miller ...... cant block . Oh , Billy's in the game . ITS A PASS!


Most of the season the Texans tried to block 4 defenders w/ 6 blockers and failed miserably ...... Cant blame that on DC

Andre Johnson is possibly the best reciever in the game outside of Randy Moss / T.O but if there is no one on the opposite side of the field to take some heat away from him he will be double covered every play .

C. Bradford has all the tools but just does not get it done

J. Gaffney Mental mistakes plague this guy , Twice this season he had a problem w/ celebrations in the ....errr Near the endzone ( fumbled once when preparing to spike the ball ..... went out of bounds in the endzone for a touchback VS Jacksonville and the other threw the ball into the stands when trying to hit the back wall VS Chiago)

The Texans have a lot of needs to fill , lets hope its an eventful off-season


Memo to CC ...... Draft a Coach who plays to win not to keep it close

Tailgate
01-04-2005, 02:58 PM
Improving the Trenches!!!!! More pass protection AND more pass rush... pretty simple to me.

htown_julie
01-04-2005, 03:01 PM
I'm with you on all those points Corrosion!!

TEXANS84
01-04-2005, 03:17 PM
J. Gaffney Mental mistakes plague this guy , Twice this season he had a problem w/ celebrations in the ....errr Near the endzone ( fumbled once when preparing to spike the ball ..... went out of bounds in the endzone for a touchback VS Jacksonville and the other threw the ball into the stands when trying to hit the back wall VS Chiago)


That was Bradford, not Gaffney.

texan279
01-04-2005, 03:22 PM
Our biggest concerns this offseason are the O line and the D line.

Cheroqui
01-04-2005, 03:34 PM
Yeah, pretty much... O-line, run stop, pass rush, offensive sets. Use the TE use the TE use the TE! 3-4 wide receivers have to be utilized often in the game. Maybe then we'll stop stalling out for points after we put 14 on the board. We should have seen a couple of 21-35 pt games this year.

phan1
01-04-2005, 04:10 PM
Most of the season the Texans tried to block 4 defenders w/ 6 blockers and failed miserably ...... Cant blame that on DC



That is so embarrassing..... :dontknowa :dontknowa :dontknowa

edo783
01-04-2005, 05:06 PM
Actually its even worse than that. Lots of times it is 7 people blocking 4 and they can't get it done. Pretty pathetic. On the other side that leaves 7 people to cover 3 recievers. Think that might be an issue?

TexansTrueFan
01-04-2005, 05:44 PM
The biggest thing we need is CONSISTENCY, they played so good against some very good teams and made the other teams look bad, and than we'd play against a very sorry team and look very bad. Once we can play consistent football we will be a play off team, we all know the jags team is way better than the browns, and look what happened :hmmm:

Corrosion
01-04-2005, 06:49 PM
Actually its even worse than that. Lots of times it is 7 people blocking 4 and they can't get it done. Pretty pathetic. On the other side that leaves 7 people to cover 3 recievers. Think that might be an issue?

Wonder if all those fair weather fans who were booing DC understand this ?
Its a wonder he hasnt missed more time than he has over the past Three seasons with the pathetic resemblance of an O-Line thats been in front of him ...... reminds me of a comercial ... DC and DD have both put up about as good of numbers as could be expected w/ this O-Line .

Same can be said of the Texans secondary with the type of pass pathetic pass rush they have in front of them . Its a wonder they werent last in the league in pass D .

Ibar_Harry
01-04-2005, 07:18 PM
If you remember the ESPN commercial with Carr under center and no O-line present, you have this year in a nut shell. Again the coaching bothers me, but even more is how are they going to solve the problem without using FA. They seem not inclined to use that avenue. Yet, McNair says the problem will be solved. What magic wand is he proposing to use?

jacquescas
01-04-2005, 07:33 PM
a quailty free agent guard isn't considered a big ticket free agent. or an early draft pick, but i think we might see alot of the same on the O-line

edo783
01-04-2005, 10:07 PM
If you remember the ESPN commercial with Carr under center and no O-line present, you have this year in a nut shell. Again the coaching bothers me, but even more is how are they going to solve the problem without using FA. They seem not inclined to use that avenue. Yet, McNair says the problem will be solved. What magic wand is he proposing to use?

Charley WAS quoted that he didn't see us doing much in FA except for a couple of cheap guys. I suspect when they really anylize what has happend and with Seth's injury, Bob McNair will get what he wants and we will be more of a player in FA than they (Charley / Dom ) initialy anticipated. It's the only way we can reasonably expect to fix things by next year. We then need to draft the core guys in the lines that will wind up being the starters in a couple of years.

J-Man
01-04-2005, 10:24 PM
After scanning the available FA O-line guys available there are some quality guards available (Andruzzi and Wahle come to mind). I think we could go after 1 or 2 FAs, look to the draft for OT and C positions, maybe make a deal for Kyle Turley (I'm a supporter of this...he is a hothead but he could provide the mean streak we seriously need in the line)...or any combination of the above moves.

The FA market for top flight front 7 guys is pretty thin. I have seen several thoughts on taking a shot at Abraham from the Jets and converting him to OLB but that's probably a long shot at best. I actually think we should target Shawn Cody or maybe Rod Wright in the draft to bulk up the D-line. We obviously need an quality ILB...there are some decent guys available (ie Hartwell from the Ravens) so that is a clear FA option or work the draft for Derrick Johnson.

SESupergenius
01-04-2005, 10:29 PM
He basically said the same thing last year too, he's doing his best "I'm not saying anything because I want to fool people" imitation.

Hervoyel
01-04-2005, 10:38 PM
He basically said the same thing last year too, he's doing his best "I'm not saying anything because I want to fool people" imitation.


Yep, people better get used to hearing this because it's going to be the official party line as long as Charlie is in charge. If the Texans had 50 million to spend on free agents he'd say the exact same thing.

Which is IMO not necessarily a bad thing. It just makes it a little harder to tell what the Texans are going to do.

infantrycak
01-04-2005, 11:19 PM
maybe make a deal for Kyle Turley (I'm a supporter of this...he is a hothead but he could provide the mean streak we seriously need in the line).

This is on the way, way not likely to happen list. Turley may or not play again--do we really need Boselli part deux? More importantly, we ain't getting rid of Wade after one year and tying up that much money in the right tackle position. Before someone says, oh let's put him at left tackle--Turley gave up two more sacks than Wand last time he played LT.

Wolf
01-04-2005, 11:47 PM
Memo to CC ...... Draft a Coach who plays to win not to keep it close

hmm how about Jeff Fisher? if he where available.. wait ..that is his philosophy.. and before you talk about the Titans record this year.. they had a TON of injuries on that team..

this talk of playing it close and stuff reminded me of when Fisher first came in to be a head coach and he has done pretty darn good over the years once he got HIS players on the roster.

El Tejano
01-05-2005, 03:09 PM
The way I see it is, we got our QB,RB,WR, CB,and LB of the future. Now we need to address both sides of the line of scrimmage. However, first if we are going to have any future, David Carr needs to be protected. We need an offensivelineman.

Blake
01-05-2005, 03:10 PM
Nose Tackle is the biggest concern I have. Payne is down, and his backups arent talented enough IMO. But is there a NT worth selecting with #13? I dont think so.

OL? Now here is something interesting. Alex Barron would be an instant upgrade over Wand. But what do you do with Wand then? Make him a backup? Maybe so.

CB We have a good vet, and the best rookie from 2004. Also Faggins is getting up to speed. Is there a CB worth #13? Yes, Rolle. But my gut says he wont last till #10.

I think FA would be the best way to get a NT. And I think #1 draft pick would be the best way to upgrade the line.

F-minus67
01-05-2005, 03:30 PM
Getting more speed and youth on the d line is a must, spears, wright or cody could fix that problem. Another pass rusher along with peek to push wong and babins. A couple of games on the bench should light a fire under on of them. The o line also has to get an attitude, when you compair them to other o line the other lines have a vocal leader who fires up his team mates, like Willie Anderson (bengals), Kyle Turly (rams) and Ron Stone (raiders) just to name a few.

SESupergenius
01-05-2005, 06:08 PM
There are only about 3 guys so far in FA that would fit in our 3-4. Williams of Buffalo is the best choice but he will come with a hefty price tag. Hovan is another but he has baggage and is slightly undersized for the NT. We need a NT that is at least 315 pounds.

NoBullTexan
01-05-2005, 06:24 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the mistakes that Wand made were from inexperience at the position, and you could possibly include Pitts in that category, since he had not played LG before. Now tell me what was the excuse of Mr (invisible) McKinney. Mr. (always injured) Weigert, and Mr (experienced) Wade? Heck, why not include Mr. TE, Breuner?

THE_HONKEY_TONK_KID
01-05-2005, 10:33 PM
People have been talking about Walter Jones........you know how much that would cost to bring him in here? O-Line is a must. I think Wand and Pitts have a lot of talent, especially Wand, he just has no experirence, he came from a Div. III school. Pitt is improving and I think Wade is solid. Not great, but solid. He is not our biggest concern. Weirght who never impressed me from the start, is a must upgrade.

I also think we need another big outside threat. Andre Johnson is great, but really, who is our #2 receiver? Bradford is a speedster, not a catcher, and I like Gaffney as a slot-3rd down receiver. Go get Edwards in the draft, of maybe even Mike Williams. Can you imagine what Johnson and Williams would look like? It would scare the money out of the Def Coodinators and it would give Carr another big option, maybe even taking pressure off our OLine.

On defense, ILB is our biggest concern. We need a run stopper that is going to read and bust through the line and get the RB before he gets started. Foreman doesn't give us that. Go get a guy that is going to make plays at that postion and can run from 1 end of the feild to the other.

D-Line is a major concern as well. Smith has been the best guy on this line. Walker is getting to slow with age, and I don't think Payne is at full strenght. Go get a guy that is going to make plays to get the QB out of the pocket and bust up running plays. We will have to go get I think a small DT just like Smith was.

I saw Carlos Rogers play the other night and I am sold on that guy. He would be a perfect fit in replacing Aaron Glenn. He is big at 6' somethin, great closing speed, and great hands.

Also, how about that Nugget kid from Ohio State, the kicker? Brown is not that great of a kicker. He would probably be gone in the second so he will be at a high price, but this could be the next great kicker in the NFL. Just look at what Nate Keading did in SD.

trijcomm
01-06-2005, 10:05 AM
:loser Plugging a player or two here and there in the OL and DL is NOT going to help the situation. What's needed is getting these guys to work together as a unit and blend with each other. For example, there are some teams in the league such as Denver who ALWAYS have a good running game, no matter who the back is. That's because they have a good system set up by good coaching that works year in and year out. It doesn't matter who they plug in -- the system works. That's what the Texans need on both sides of the ball in regards to line play. Unfortunately, that sometimes takes years to achieve -- if ever. And in the process, it takes time to find out if there really is a weak link in the chain or if it's just a matter of them working into the system. When you are talking about improving line play, that is a much bigger task than just finding one guy like a QB or RB. eek:

Corrosion
01-06-2005, 01:08 PM
:loser Plugging a player or two here and there in the OL and DL is NOT going to help the situation. What's needed is getting these guys to work together as a unit and blend with each other. For example, there are some teams in the league such as Denver who ALWAYS have a good running game, no matter who the back is. That's because they have a good system set up by good coaching that works year in and year out. It doesn't matter who they plug in -- the system works. That's what the Texans need on both sides of the ball in regards to line play. Unfortunately, that sometimes takes years to achieve -- if ever. And in the process, it takes time to find out if there really is a weak link in the chain or if it's just a matter of them working into the system. When you are talking about improving line play, that is a much bigger task than just finding one guy like a QB or RB. eek:


Ill agree with you to an extent but we ALL KNOW that there is a lack of TALENT on the Texans O-Line . Weak Link .... Steve McKinney . Pitts / Wand are young players Wade / Weigert dont have that excuse , it may be the fact they changed the system that caused the problems in the running game but i dont believe pass protection changes from the man to man blocking scheme to the zone scheme . simple fact is they were the worst in the league at pass protection . There needs to be an upgrade of talent on the O-Line .

On the D-Line i think age / injury have depleted the skills of a couple of the Texans starters , Gary Walker may have been a Pro Bowl player at one point but the past two seasons he has done little to nothing . Injury / Age have caught up to him . Seth Payne was injuried and sat out 90% of last season and is hurt again now , he rebounded well from his last injury but can we expect him to do it again ? . Smith played well the second half of the season . Sears and Deloach are quality BACK-UP's Not Starting calibur players .

It ll starts up front , if you cant block on offense and cant stop the run / put heat on the QB on Defense you cant win , simple as that . Do the Texans need more talent up front ....... YES

El Tejano
01-06-2005, 01:44 PM
These are both two areas of concern that I would like to see addressed in a big way. Who are people yall have in mind that could make a difference for this team?

THEFUTURE
01-06-2005, 02:30 PM
I am not sure on taking a OL in the first round. There are a lot more things we can address with the first pick... OL can be addressed later on in the draft or through free agency. I would rather see it done through the latter, because drafting OL players takes time, especially with our zone blocking scheme. I dont know if we want to take all that time developing a young OL, especially when people want to see results by next year

TexansTrueFan
01-06-2005, 03:08 PM
i say we pick up some middle age FA in the off season for the O-Line, because we all know how rookies growing pains are, and we dont wanna risk carr at their expense !

Ibar_Harry
01-06-2005, 03:20 PM
Again, why not use FA? But the higher ups have said they're not interested. Are they saying we have all we need right now? The owner says we are going to address protection for Carr, but the say no to FA. None of this makes sense to me, but that's me......................

infantrycak
01-06-2005, 03:31 PM
But the higher ups have said they're not interested.

No, what Casserly said was no high priced FA's--and it is called playing your cards close to your vest.

TexansFan#80
01-06-2005, 03:47 PM
Our biggest concerns this offseason are the O line and the D line.
This about sums it up.

Second to this would be getting a WR to complement AJ

Wolf
01-06-2005, 09:51 PM
offensively.
1)at least 1 lineman that can actually hold its own. I doubt drafting one is the ticket, we'd have the same problems ..experience .. IMO.. I hope we find a legit center in the FA market
2) hollings to pan out or get a breakaway back
3)Joppru to get healthy or draft another TE
4) need to find a #2 WR

defensively
1) a NT that can hog 2 linemen and maybe open the door for the others so they can atleast get smelling distance to the QB
2) I'd personally like to see us draft another CB to groom for glenn. I don't think we will be drafting higher than 13 next season.

special teams.
I returner . JJ is solid but I would like to seesomeonethat can burn

honorable mention.
I'd like tosee a LB drafted to push foreman.

block4carrmore
01-06-2005, 10:36 PM
Improving the Trenches!!!!! More pass protection AND more pass rush... pretty simple to me. I absolutely agree. Would they protect better if they were protecting Shania Twain instead of David Carr?

trijcomm
01-06-2005, 10:38 PM
This about sums it up.

Second to this would be getting a WR to complement AJ

We have him, and his name is Gaffney.

trijcomm
01-06-2005, 10:43 PM
Ill agree with you to an extent but we ALL KNOW that there is a lack of TALENT on the Texans O-Line . Weak Link .... Steve McKinney . Pitts / Wand are young players Wade / Weigert dont have that excuse , it may be the fact they changed the system that caused the problems in the running game but i dont believe pass protection changes from the man to man blocking scheme to the zone scheme . simple fact is they were the worst in the league at pass protection . There needs to be an upgrade of talent on the O-Line .

On the D-Line i think age / injury have depleted the skills of a couple of the Texans starters , Gary Walker may have been a Pro Bowl player at one point but the past two seasons he has done little to nothing . Injury / Age have caught up to him . Seth Payne was injuried and sat out 90% of last season and is hurt again now , he rebounded well from his last injury but can we expect him to do it again ? . Smith played well the second half of the season . Sears and Deloach are quality BACK-UP's Not Starting calibur players .

It ll starts up front , if you cant block on offense and cant stop the run / put heat on the QB on Defense you cant win , simple as that . Do the Texans need more talent up front ....... YES

I agree with you, the OL and DL were bad. But the problem may not be poor talent as much as it is the system and the time it takes for them to gel. If you start jerking around with the line too much, then it may actually take longer for you to finally see success -- no matter who you plug in there. And yes, the DL needs help. They were so much better in their first year than they are now. That has to be a concern. The bigger concern is that you don't just find those impact players at your front door.

THEFUTURE
01-06-2005, 11:35 PM
How many teams in the NFL use the zone blocking scheme for their O line? I know that the Broncos do. Is there any other teams? and what players in FA are there that have experience in it, so we wont have to repeat the process of having people learn a new blocking system.

I think the only people worth keeping that are on the OL are Pitts and Wade, the only reason im still supporting Pitts is that he has little football experience, was put into a new position, learning a new scheme, so i still thikn he has a chance to be a avg OL

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 12:14 AM
I think the only people worth keeping that are on the OL are Pitts and Wade, the only reason im still supporting Pitts is that he has little football experience, was put into a new position, learning a new scheme, so i still thikn he has a chance to be a avg OL

:thud: If that's the case, and we replace everybody but those two guys, then be ready to wait another two or three years for things to gel. You don't just go out, pick up a couple of guys and throw them into the line and expect that to fix up the problem. I don't care WHO you put in there, it will take them time to come together as a unit. I'm not necessarily saying that we don't need some new people in there, but to think that just throwing some new folks in there and, voila! All fixed! Well, that's wishful thinking.

THEFUTURE
01-07-2005, 12:26 AM
Im not saying we just get rid of the others right away and start from scratch, instead bring in maybe one or two guys from free agency, let them work their way in and gel...dont just throw them into being an automatic starter, thats stupid. But everyone knows we need to bring others in, and if we bring in other guys that already know the zone blocking, then thats half the battle. All thats left is them working as a unit, which does take time. But do you honestly think that weigert or mckinney is gonna have a chance of staying a starter the whole year if we bring in others that are more capable of doing the job....my point was simply that over the next few years those might be the only guys that i still see being of any value to our line, and the process starts now of finding other Oline men, to replace the ones that are hindering the progress of our team

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 12:53 AM
Im not saying we just get rid of the others right away and start from scratch, instead bring in maybe one or two guys from free agency, let them work their way in and gel...dont just throw them into being an automatic starter, thats stupid. But everyone knows we need to bring others in, and if we bring in other guys that already know the zone blocking, then thats half the battle. All thats left is them working as a unit, which does take time. But do you honestly think that weigert or mckinney is gonna have a chance of staying a starter the whole year if we bring in others that are more capable of doing the job....my point was simply that over the next few years those might be the only guys that i still see being of any value to our line, and the process starts now of finding other Oline men, to replace the ones that are hindering the progress of our team

You see, this is exactly the problem. You want to keep a couple of guys, other folks want to keep the other guys. There is no real way to pin the problem on this guy or these guys. That's why I say that it's a problem with the entire unit playing together. There may be a hole or two there, but I for one think Weigert wasn't so bad. A lot of folks seem to be heaping stuff on McKinney, but I would bet that no matter who you replaced you'd have the same problem next year. I maintain this is more a coaching problem than personnel. I'd give them another year to come together while bringing in some new guys to show them the team means biz. But if the result is the same after next season, then they'd better get a new offensive line coach in here who can motivate the players. Six sacks allowed vs. a team that had just 26 the entire season is unacceptable, but you can't blame those sacks on individuals. The entire unit has to be blamed and when that's the case, it's the line coach that must take the flack.

Wolf
01-07-2005, 01:02 AM
as much as I like McKinney, I feel he is an undersized Center.. and I can see why David doesn't step up in the pocket...he can't step up..and to me, if the center can't hold his own, the whole line is messed up because we have to shift a guard to help him, a tackle to take the guards original person and then a TE to take the tackles original person.. domino effect..

THEFUTURE
01-07-2005, 01:21 AM
but you can't blame those sacks on individuals.

yes you can, when a line does its job, and one individual doesnt, then the rest of the line has to compensate for the unreliable parts...an offensive line, even in zone blocking, needs to gel together to be able to know how to pick up blitzes etc, however when the ball is hiked, and u pick up a man you need to block, and you dont, that falls under an individual performance...not the OL...and that poor individual performance is not always about poor coaching, sure there are some things a coach can teach, however, at the end of the day, athleticism and talent are what matter..you can have the greatest coaches in the world coaching them, but that can only get them so far, until athletisism needs to kick in

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 01:54 AM
yes you can, when a line does its job, and one individual doesnt, then the rest of the line has to compensate for the unreliable parts...an offensive line, even in zone blocking, needs to gel together to be able to know how to pick up blitzes etc, however when the ball is hiked, and u pick up a man you need to block, and you dont, that falls under an individual performance...not the OL...and that poor individual performance is not always about poor coaching, sure there are some things a coach can teach, however, at the end of the day, athleticism and talent are what matter..you can have the greatest coaches in the world coaching them, but that can only get them so far, until athletisism needs to kick in

It is impossible for any fan to know what individual isn't "doing his job" because only the coach knows what the assignments are. Thus, a fan cannot assess blame and evaluate linemen since they don't know when a OL did or did not successfully perform a task. Pass protection and run blocking are a true team/unit effort. The whole unit has to mesh and gel for the thing to work. When you are talking offensive line play, coaching is not simply a matter of teaching. It's a matter of getting the line to work together. Knowing the intricacies of line play, I would attribute it more to playing as a unit than individual poor performances. And that is the coach's responsibility. Coaching line play is the toughest and most misunderstood as well as most underrated jobs in all of football because you've got to get almost half a dozen people to work together and fulfill team assignments and goals rather than individual ones. Contrast this to the QB and RB coaches who basically only have one guy they have to worry about. After all, when Dan Marino was passing out those gloves, he gave them to the whole offensive line -- not just specific individuals. That's because he knew that the entire line had to work as a cohesive unit or he was toast.

infantrycak
01-07-2005, 08:42 AM
It is impossible for any fan to know what individual isn't "doing his job" because only the coach knows what the assignments are. Thus, a fan cannot assess blame and evaluate linemen since they don't know when a OL did or did not successfully perform a task.

That's just silly. When Dwight Freeney speed rushes around Wand who has no TE support, it is pretty clear that the guy assigned to Freeney is not Wade or anyone else on the OL not named Wand. Barring an assumption that the Texans' players are commonly coming off the line and hitting the wrong folks just watch who they hit and you can see who they are assigned to stop and then judge whether they successfully stop them. The fact that there is some uncertainty in the system doesn't mean you just throw your hands up in the air and go awe shucks the OL sucks.

Honoring Earl 34
01-07-2005, 09:43 AM
The Texans have spent a second on Pitts(could of had Portis) a third on Weary and Wand.They signed Mcinney,Wiegert,and Wade who were solid players. Hmmm could another team make a solid unit out of these guys ?Now they will not allow Pendry to leave.So they like the OL coach , :hmmm: what gives?

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 10:18 AM
That's just silly. When Dwight Freeney speed rushes around Wand who has no TE support, it is pretty clear that the guy assigned to Freeney is not Wade or anyone else on the OL not named Wand. Barring an assumption that the Texans' players are commonly coming off the line and hitting the wrong folks just watch who they hit and you can see who they are assigned to stop and then judge whether they successfully stop them. The fact that there is some uncertainty in the system doesn't mean you just throw your hands up in the air and go awe shucks the OL sucks.

No, it's not silly. Schemes change every play. And where was the RB when Feeney got through? Why wasn't he picked up? There is uncertainty in this because you don't really know who's assigned to who from play to play. You seem to love to place the blame at somebody's doorstep, but line play is truly a team game that has everything to do with cohesion and is impossible to judge on an individual basis.

infantrycak
01-07-2005, 10:52 AM
Schemes change every play. And where was the RB when Feeney got through?

Still silly. Your assertion was fans can't judge lineplay because things change too much from play to play. While it is true things change, fans can look at individual plays and determine who got beat other than completely boneheaded plays where the RB is told to block and chooses not to--like that happens much.

You seem to love to place the blame at somebody's doorstep, but line play is truly a team game that has everything to do with cohesion and is impossible to judge on an individual basis.

Ummm, no it is called evaluating what is wrong and how to improve upon it. It is the job of Casserly, Capers and their staffs. I guarantee when Casserly asks Capers what they need to do in the off-season to improve the OL and whether someone needs to be upgraded Capers doesn't turn around and say it, "is impossible to judge on an individual basis."

Fans on MB's talk about the same things. Yes stats don't paint a complete picture, yes the game is complex, but it isn't so Zen-like and indivisable that evaluations can't be made.

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 11:01 AM
Ummm, no it is called evaluating what is wrong and how to improve upon it. It is the job of Casserly, Capers and their staffs. I guarantee when Casserly asks Capers what they need to do in the off-season to improve the OL and whether someone needs to be upgraded Capers doesn't turn around and say it, "is impossible to judge on an individual basis."

Fans on MB's talk about the same things. Yes stats don't paint a complete picture, yes the game is complex, but it isn't so Zen-like and indivisable that evaluations can't be made.

Remember what McNair said? No big changes will be made on the OL but Carr will be protected. If no major upgrades in the line are being made, yet the OL obviously had problems this year, do you think it's possible that they aren't seeing it on an individual basis? There are NO stats that paint ANY kind of picture regarding offensive linemen on an individual basis. The only thing you can really do is look at it as a whole and say, "Gee, they allowed six sacks to a team that had 26 the entire year. The pass protection stinks." That would be true. But you can't begin to assess blame for those sacks on an individual basis because, like I've said, only the coaches know for sure who blew a blocking assignment and what broke down to cause those failures. It's not zen -- it's just common sense.

infantrycak
01-07-2005, 11:04 AM
It's not zen -- it's just common sense.

Yeah, it is common sense--when I see a DT plow through McKinney and sack Carr on step 2 of a 3 step drop I know it wasn't Wand or Wade's fault.

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 11:10 AM
Yeah, it is common sense--when I see a DT plow through McKinney and sack Carr on step 2 of a 3 step drop I know it wasn't Wand or Wade's fault.

The entire Browns DL had Carr on the run the entire afternoon. To point your finger and say, "McKinney is to blame!" is very simplistic.

infantrycak
01-07-2005, 11:13 AM
The entire Browns DL had Carr on the run the entire afternoon. To point your finger and say, "McKinney is to blame!" is very simplistic.

Do you understand the concept of watching each play through a game, evaluating what happened on that play and keep track throughout the game to gain an overall impression of who did well and who did poorly? Saying oh my god it is all just so complex and changes happen we can't evaluate anything is what is simplistic.

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 11:19 AM
Do you understand the concept of watching each play through a game, evaluating what happened on that play and keep track throughout the game to gain an overall impression of who did well and who did poorly? Saying oh my god it is all just so complex and changes happen we can't evaluate anything is what is simplistic.

Yes, I understand -- I understand I can evaluate a poorly thrown or well thrown pass thrown by David Carr because that's all a QB's responsibility. If David Carr goes back to throw and, without being rushed, throws five straight passes into the ground, you can pretty easily blame that on Carr. But there is NO WAY you can know what the blocking assignments for a particular linemen are unless you are the coach. There is no way you can know who is responsible for a sack from play to play or who missed who in regards to a blocking assignment. Now THAT'S simple -- to understand, that is.

infantrycak
01-07-2005, 11:26 AM
But there is NO WAY you can know what the blocking assignments for a particular linemen are unless you are the coach. There is no way you can know who is responsible for a sack from play to play or who missed who in regards to a blocking assignment. Now THAT'S simple -- to understand, that is.

BS, it is called game film. You tell me, Texans line up with 4 WR's, no back and TE on Wade. Wand comes off the ball into the DE and Pitts comes off the ball into the DT. Wand gets beat to the outside by the DE. The only way that is not Wand's fault is if you assume Pitts is too stupid to remember who to hit. Yeah it is a possibility, but is one that will happen so infrequently that it is stupid not to assume it away and refuse to make the judgment that Wand got beat. The assignments in pass protection are a lot more tranparent than you make them out to be.

wags
01-07-2005, 11:30 AM
Yes, I understand -- I understand I can evaluate a poorly thrown or well thrown pass thrown by David Carr because that's all a QB's responsibility.

What if the receiver ran the wrong route? Maybe you judge the QB too harshly, because only coaches know what routes the receivers are supposed to run.

You can use this type of thinking for any position on the field.

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 11:43 AM
What if the receiver ran the wrong route? Maybe you judge the QB too harshly, because only coaches know what routes the receivers are supposed to run.

You can use this type of thinking for any position on the field.

Not if he does it five times to an open receiver. Plus, there are stats that do legitimately indicate the success of a QB. This is not true for a lineman. Why? Because it's impossible to create ANY stat to judge an individual who is part of a unit like an offensive line. Penalties and sacks allowed by individuals indicate nothing about the success of an individual cog of any OL. It has much more to do with cohesion than who allowed a sack.

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 11:54 AM
BS, it is called game film. You tell me, Texans line up with 4 WR's, no back and TE on Wade. Wand comes off the ball into the DE and Pitts comes off the ball into the DT. Wand gets beat to the outside by the DE. The only way that is not Wand's fault is if you assume Pitts is too stupid to remember who to hit. Yeah it is a possibility, but is one that will happen so infrequently that it is stupid not to assume it away and refuse to make the judgment that Wand got beat. The assignments in pass protection are a lot more tranparent than you make them out to be.

The only ones who can really assess "game film" are the coaches who know the assignments. No, the assignments in pass protection are NOT all that transparent -- especially when you are assessing blame. Perhaps the offensive lineman was only supposed to hold the guy up for a second or two before moving off to another assignment and then perhaps it was somebody else's job to pick the same guy up. How do you know -- unless you're the coach? Perhaps the QB held on to the ball too long. Perhaps it really was somebody else's guy to pick up. There are a myriad of possibilities that exist when it comes to assessing blame on individuals within the offensive line and only the coaches know for sure. That's why line play succeeds and fails when the unit succeeds or fails. They MUST play together or the whole thing falls apart. When you start assessing blame on individuals when you are ignorant of the blocking schemes for that particular play -- which we all are, of course -- you are opening yourself up to making improper and bad job evaluations which are not fair to the individuals involved.

infantrycak
01-07-2005, 12:20 PM
Welcome to the MB Steve McKinney.

wags
01-07-2005, 12:28 PM
Welcome to the MB Steve McKinney.

I was thinking more like Steve McKinney's dad.

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 12:57 PM
I was thinking more like Steve McKinney's dad.

If you think replacing McKinney will solve "The Team's" sack problems, then you are only kidding yourselves. In fact, you might be setting "The Team" back by at least a year if not two.

Vinny
01-07-2005, 01:34 PM
The Texans have spent a second on Pitts (could of had Portis)Pitts was our second second round selection, we passed on Portis twice. Every team could have had Portis. Last time I checked all 31 other teams passed on him including his college coach.
Now they will not allow Pendry to leave.So they like the OL coach , :hmmm: what gives? It's probably because he is a better coach than most of you guys think.

infantrycak
01-07-2005, 01:39 PM
Pitts was our second second round selection, we passed on Portis twice. Every team could have had Portis. Last time I checked all 31 other teams passed on him including his college coach.

And given Portis' performance this year, we can see he would not have been the majic poultice some people think he would have been for the Texans--especially without Pitts, one of their better run blockers. Portis is a better back than DD but he can't carry a team with a poor OL.

Vinny
01-07-2005, 01:41 PM
You seem to love to place the blame at somebody's doorstep, but line play is truly a team game that has everything to do with cohesion and is impossible to judge on an individual basis.
I will say that it is hard to judge line play for some of the reasons you state, plus most people don't know how to grade it and just generalize and reach for someone to point a finger at out of frustration, but you absolutely can assess some culpability on individual plays. To say otherwise is going to the other extreme and is not accurate.

Lucky
01-07-2005, 02:24 PM
Remember what McNair said? No big changes will be made on the OL but Carr will be protected.
I haven't seen that. McNair isn't the type to micromanage what type of changes will/won't occur on the O-line. Do you have a link to that quote?

infantrycak
01-07-2005, 02:29 PM
He is mixing up McNair saying Carr will be protected and Casserly saying don't expect any high dollar FA signings.

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 04:12 PM
I will say that it is hard to judge line play for some of the reasons you state, plus most people don't know how to grade it and just generalize and reach for someone to point a finger at out of frustration, but you absolutely can assess some culpability on individual plays. To say otherwise is going to the other extreme and is not accurate.

Oh, sure, you can see a guy miss a block or a tackle clearly every once in awhile. But you sure can't judge somebody based on those situations alone. Those situations are a small percentage to their overall job performance during the season.

Vinny
01-07-2005, 05:13 PM
This may sound ridiculous to you but when you watch players perform you can actually tell who has skill, uses technique and has burst and explosion. You seem to want to argue your points down to absurd levels.

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 05:16 PM
This may sound ridiculous to you but when you watch players perform you can actually tell who has skill, uses technique and has burst and explosion. You seem to want to argue your points down to absurd levels.

:loser Until you are wearing coaching credentials and standing on the sideline or sitting in the coaches' box, please refrain from telling me how a linemen performed without knowing what his assignment or task is on each play. To do so is, well, absurd.

powda
01-07-2005, 05:25 PM
huh?


passing play and its not a screen...i wonder what the offensive lines' responsibility is?

defensive line and theres no stunt called (wich should be pretty obvious to even occasional fans ) on a passing play....i wonder what their supposed to do.....


:um:

theres more....a lot more...

THEFUTURE
01-07-2005, 05:44 PM
When OL get outworked it is obvious. Maybe not to the common fan, but to the coaches and GM, it is. That is why its their job to go and fix the problems. Not ours, but any educated fan should have the knowledge to know that if one OL is getting blown past, almost every other 3rd or 4th snap, then obviously that player is not performing well enough. and that is where an individual has to take the blame.
coaches have a sense of who the OL should be blocking but when the Offense audibles because of a blitz, and a linemen doesnt pick up either the DL or a LB, then it is the individuals performance. Because then what, do you expect another linemen to come over and assist the incapable one, NO! because then you are leaving a DL or linebacker unblocked (which would be very smart :hairpull: )

DoCt3rJ
01-07-2005, 06:25 PM
Quote - "Andre Johnson is possibly the best reciever in the game outside of Randy Moss / T.O but if there is no one on the opposite side of the field to take some heat away from him he will be double covered every play ."


How can you say that? To me right now, he is barely in the top 10. Yea hes got alot of potential to be a top 5 wideout, but best in the game right now? I don't see how you can say that. I'm still seeing him drop balls, and he still needs to work on his route running. Some of Carr's sacks were due to nobody getting open. You can say hes double covered, but look at TO, look at Moss, look at Harrison before Wayne emerged, look at Joe Horn, Muhammad, Jimmy Smith, Chad Johnson (without Warrick this year). But you are right though, we need another WR to take pressure off of Andre.

Vinny
01-07-2005, 06:28 PM
He can say that because it is probably true. AJ is an enourmous talent and really, he rarely dropped passes and made every defense he faced alter their coverages for him. He is one of the top 5-6 WR's in football today.

DoCt3rJ
01-07-2005, 06:31 PM
Eh I still don't think so. He goes away.. and then comes. He's not consistently comin up with plays like the big ones. I've seen him in alot of games this year just do nothing, even when Carr had protection, diden't get open.

Vinny
01-07-2005, 06:34 PM
You don't watch many games then. AJ runs great routes and touched the ball 79 times in the passing game for 1150 yards with a horrible offensive line and an inconsistant QB. That is some pretty solid stuff if you ask me.

DoCt3rJ
01-07-2005, 06:38 PM
I watch him, not the oline, not the qb, I watch him. He doesen't get seperation alot of times, hes still inconsistent. Look at his sub par games...

4 for 58 vs SD
4 for 66 vs Tenn
3 for 28 vs Denver
6 for 59 vs Indi
4 for 31 vs Tenn(2nd)
3 for 34 vs Indi(2nd)
2 for 21 vs Chicago
2 for 13 vs Browns


Denver's pass defense hasn't been great or good. Indiapolis pass defense is horrible, Tennesee's whole defense has sucked, and Browns?? Your gonna tell me Browns dline was so good they had no protection for Carr to find Johnson for more than 13 yards? Johnson is good, really good, top 10 for sure. But top 5 right now? I still dont think so.. not yet.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
01-07-2005, 06:40 PM
He is right. Outside of TO and Moss, there is no receiver in the league with as much physical ability as our own Andre Johnson.

DoCt3rJ
01-07-2005, 06:41 PM
Physical ability yes.

Vinny
01-07-2005, 06:44 PM
I watch him, not the oline, not the qb, I watch him. He doesen't get seperation alot of times, hes still inconsistent. Look at his sub par games...

4 for 58 vs SD
4 for 66 vs Tenn
3 for 28 vs Denver
6 for 59 vs Indi
4 for 31 vs Tenn(2nd)
3 for 34 vs Indi(2nd)
2 for 21 vs Chicago
2 for 13 vs Browns


Denver's pass defense hasn't been great or good. Indiapolis pass defense is horrible, Tennesee's whole defense has sucked, and Browns?? Your gonna tell me Browns dline was so good they had no protection for Carr to find Johnson for more than 13 yards? Johnson is good, really good, top 10 for sure. But top 5 right now? I still dont think so.. not yet.
That stat line does nothing for me. I too watched those games. If you bothered to watch the games you would have noticed that those teams rolled the coverage to aj. He was pressed at the line and had linebackers pick him up in the mid level and a safety over the top. I guess he made the Pro Bowl on past reputation since he performed so poorly in those 8 games you referenced.

THEFUTURE
01-07-2005, 06:45 PM
The fact is that until we get another receiver that teams respect, honestly i dont see Gaffney or Bradford striking fear in opponents hearts, then AJ will continue to get doubled or tripled, that is possible because teams are usually are leaving linebackers in coverage, because our OL cant block teams front 4... I think if Mike Williams is available at #13, then we take him... leave getting OL and DL for free agency

DoCt3rJ
01-07-2005, 06:50 PM
So it stood out to you the times he was pressed by a LB. Did you see the many times he was blanketed by one corner? Or with a safety over top, completely taken him out of the play on several occasions. I just dont think you can put him in the top 5 receivers right now..

Vinny
01-07-2005, 06:53 PM
So it stood out to you the times he was pressed by a LB. Did you see the many times he was blanketed by one corner? Or with a safety over top, completely taken him out of the play on several occasions. I just dont think you can put him in the top 5 receivers right now..Your position was that he wasn't a top-10 guy just a couple of posts ago. Your posture on this has changed to the the point where I wouldn't argue it if you think he is just outside the top-5 guys.

Hammer away.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
01-07-2005, 07:05 PM
I think we need a TE that can catch AND block more than we need another WR.

DominatorDavis
01-07-2005, 10:08 PM
Our weakness on offense was the O-line this year. Hands down. Some young guys playing in new positions combined with a new blocking scheme is not the worlds best recipe for short term success. Now long term it has the potential to be very good.

And just to let my frusterations out - if we could have just moved the ball 10 or 20 more yards even to give Brown a chance to kick a field goal...man that is the difference between a winning and a loosing season.

Carr kept the ball on roll outs way to long and/or failed to execute with creativity in a pinch on those same roll outs. I do believe impovisation will just come with experience.

However, with good reason I do like the progress of this team overall. Another year of free agency combined with another draft - we'll be formitable. Casserly and the coaches will sort out the personel problems. I really do believe that we will get some very good free agents this year. The word is out - Houston *is* the city and team to play for.

Just some initial thoughts for a Friday night.

Honoring Earl 34
01-07-2005, 10:48 PM
So who they draft first is what they think is the most pressing need.I don't believe their at the point of taking best player there.

trijcomm
01-07-2005, 10:49 PM
Our weakness on offense was the O-line this year. Hands down. Some young guys playing in new positions combined with a new blocking scheme is not the worlds best recipe for short term success. Now long term it has the potential to be very good.

And just to let my frusterations out - if we could have just moved the ball 10 or 20 more yards even to give Brown a chance to kick a field goal...man that is the difference between a winning and a loosing season.

Carr kept the ball on roll outs way to long and/or failed to execute with creativity in a pinch on those same roll outs. I do believe impovisation will just come with experience.

However, with good reason I do like the progress of this team overall. Another year of free agency combined with another draft - we'll be formitable. Casserly and the coaches will sort out the personel problems. I really do believe that we will get some very good free agents this year. The word is out - Houston *is* the city and team to play for.

Just some initial thoughts for a Friday night.

I do believe that if we could have moved the ball a little bit further against the Vikes once we tied it up, we could have certainly won that game and been 8-8. But I wouldn't say that was necessarily the case against GB because our offense completely shut down later in the game and "The Team" was just trying to hold on. I don't think a draft/FA will make the Texans "formidable" but it will make them more competitive. As far as Houston being the city and team to play for, I don't think so. The lure of playoffs and the championship is what attracts players. If you will notice, we haven't really done too well in attracting big-name players to "The Team" for that very reason. The failure to get Stephen Davis over here is a case in point.

THEFUTURE
01-08-2005, 01:31 AM
I think we need a TE that can catch AND block more than we need another WR.

was it me or isnt that a big reason we brought in Breuner, not to catch the ball, but to help Billy Miller with his blocking ability...since that is what he needed more help with... Also we drafted Joppru thinking he might have been the answer, but all he has been doing is sitting on IR with a nagging groin injury or something like that... i would like to see Miller pan out and imrpove his blocking, since he has been an integral part of this team, for the most part, since day one. If we were to take a tight end in the draft, who would we take? im not sure about a tight end at #13, i think there will be plenty of TE available througout the draft, and i would see it to much of an opportunity to pass on Mike Williams, if he is still available

Honoring Earl 34
01-08-2005, 02:56 PM
:hmmm: Hey heres a thought,Miller not getting the ball is relative to Gaffney not producing and their best player going a whole game catching two passes.Its called not having enough time or not adapting with shorter drops.The player who benefits the most is DD.
The Offensive Cordinator and Line Coach decides drops and blocking schemes.If we had Tony Gonzales i'm not sure he'd catch 40 passes.


Earl The Tyler Rose

THEFUTURE
01-08-2005, 04:00 PM
I still do believe this is an OL problem.
- defenses are usually only rushing with a front 3 or 4, and maybe one LB at most. if a defense only pass rushes a front four, then there are 7 guys in pass coverage. while we are lining up 6 guys to block 4
- this is a big reason Dre, Gaff, and Bradford are not getting open. its possible for each one to be covered by a CB and a safety, or a LB.
- with the receivers unable to get open, the pocket starts to collapse, and Carr can do nothin else but dump it off to DD.

:fight:

Honoring Earl 34
01-09-2005, 08:51 AM
:hmmm: San Diego started a 3rd round pick (04) at center and a 7th rounder (04) at tackle and their in the playoffs .Theres more than a personel problem .

Hit Man
01-09-2005, 10:22 AM
The Texan's stunk on the final game of the season. David must admit this.

The Texan's have the 13 pick next year, and they are in dire need of offensive linemen. Seth Wand stinks! I only had to watch him let DC get killed or chased out of the pocket on almost ever passing play. No statistics are out on the number of sacks he allowed, but I'll put money on it that it was high.

On the offensive side of the ball. Mark Brunner did an admiral job. He should have had more balls thrown his way. He proved that he can catch. Chester Pitts is solid. Todd Wade was too even with his injury. All the others are questionable.

On the defensive side of the ball, Seth Payne showed glimpses of dominance. Gary Walker was a non-factor not an X-Factor. Robaire Smith can't get through the O-line by himself. So, the Texans' must draft D-linemen desperately.

The Texan's need a receiver, a tightend....their pick from 2 years ago is a total bust. They need at least 1 stud O-lineman, at least 1 stud D-lineman, a cornerbackthat can be groomed....Aaron Glenn is good, but he's getting older.

With that said, the Texan's only scored 26 more points than last year. Only 26, did you hear me! I've said it for 3 years now....Fire Chris Palmer. He stays with the run way to much....way into the 3rd quarter when we need to pass the ball because we are way behind. He always runs on 1st down. He always calls the same run on 1st, run on 2nd, throw on 3rd. This usually takes place in the 3rd quarter, too. He stayed away from play calling to A.J. late in the year. He waits to long to get everyone involved. He doesn't throw on 1st downs, and he rarely runs the play action pass....he prefers the roll out. He turns completely conservative once the Texan's get a lead instead of blowing the game open. It's run, run, run. I'm sorry, but the Texan's don't have an Earl Campbell.

This was the year that Palmer was supposed to focus more on the play calling. Boy, what a job. He engineered 26 more points with fewer job responsibilities. When the Texan's had nothing to play for, Palmer still didn't open up the offense. Why should I expect anything different from him. He hasn't done it in the previous two years either. He's a former Oiler coach. Play to not lose the game....don't play to win. The players just don't appear to be sold on his system.

The offensive line and it's experiment should have been a commercial for Tinker Toys. Seth Wand was a bust! Zone Blocking....was it really that good, or did we play some poor run defenses.....save Jacksonville. The offensive line couldn't block the USC Trojan's much less less pro's There wasn't much fire in their eyes. So, I'm not sold on Joe Pendry's blocking scheme, but then he may not be the one who wanted to implement it. We don't know because he doesn't talk. Where's Carl Mauck when you need him.

I like Dom Caper's and Vic Fangio. Vic's defenses always start off the year slow but they usually end up with a bang. It seems like his play calling gets better as the season goes on. Dom is a perfectionist, but he needs to crack the whip on his offensive coordinator. He needs to tell him....get me some points....not just yardage. Yardage doesn't win games, nor does blaming the players.

I predicted 9-7 this year, and I would have been right had the Texan's not looked flat in Detroit and here with Cleveland. Instead, we are a loser with all our hopes riding on next year for the fourth year in a row. Hmm! I haven't seen that much drastic improvement from any of the three years. I predict we might win more games next season. Maybe we will win 9 games next year, but I bet we would more with a new offensive coordinator. Look at Marty Schotenheimer, and you can see that it can be done, but not with the coach (offensive coordinator) that we currently have in place. But even Schotenheimer said he had to change his thinking, but Palmer is a stallwart and resistant to change. The fact is something had better change Charlie Casserly and Bob McNair, or those seats aren't going to be full to much longer.

Am I really a pessamist....I think not. I am a realist. I turned the Cleveland game off at the beginning of the 3rd quarter because I knew the Texan's weren't going to win. Wow! I was right! I've been right before. I just hope that I'm not right about next year, but I doubt than anything will change with the offensive play calling and I believe the Texan's will be mediocre at best in the offensive catagory, but only time will tell. I haven't been wrong yet! The Texan's are :loser's no matter how you slice the pie.

The Hit-Man!

Supertex
01-09-2005, 11:12 AM
Hmm. I agree Fire Chris Palmer. He makes horrible calls and is probably the reason we lost the close games *Minnesota*...Seth Payne needs to leave. We need another solid Defensive linemen but, before we touch that we need a damn O Line. Bruener did an *Okay* job , as well as Miller. It would be nice to have a better TE but thats no the base of our worries. We need a O line and D line thats worth a ****. The end

Honoring Earl 34
01-09-2005, 01:21 PM
:howdy: The Texans need OL with some attitude.That OT for the Sooners is one nasty dude.I think his name is Brown.I'd take a DL with 13th pick if I thought he's a better prospect.I'd take Derrick Johnson with the 13th pick if he's there.I would not take a skills position or a secondary player anytime soon.



Beltran means nothing to me anymore. :thud:

THEFUTURE
01-09-2005, 01:27 PM
Seth Payne needs to leave.

Why would we let go one of the few defensive linemen that actually play well, if any linemen needs to pack up and go if he is not gonna play better, its Gary Walker, .5 sacks in 2 seasons, ridiculous.

The Texans most likely are not gonna draft an OL early in the draft, and i doubt they will go for a DL with the number 13 pick... the team wants to cover those later it the draft or most likely through FA

Honoring Earl 34
01-09-2005, 01:33 PM
:hmmm: Until the All-star games and combine are completed.Its hard to tell whats what.But I mantain the Texans will take the best 300 pounder at 13.

THEFUTURE
01-09-2005, 01:39 PM
Than we agree to disagree, no problem...to each his own... well just see what shakes out when the draft rolls around. but you got to admit, its a long shot, but if Mike Williams is still available, it would be mighty hard to pass on the possibility of Carr having the option of Dre and Williams, with DD in the backfield. maybe then Palmer would grow some nuts and open up the play book

Corrosion
01-09-2005, 02:11 PM
but if Mike Williams is still available, it would be mighty hard to pass on the possibility of Carr having the option of Dre and Williams, with DD in the backfield. maybe then Palmer would grow some nuts and open up the play book


If it were me , i would take an O or D lineman @ 13 UNLESS there is a skill position player left on the board who is just too good to pass up , Mike Wiliams would fall into that category . At which point you have the option of trading down or taking the player .Thats where you have to weigh the offers from other teams VS. the posibilities that player gives you on the field . Filling multiple holes on the team is nice but adding another player w/ superstar potential .....Depends on the offer you get for the pick

mwclark
01-09-2005, 02:21 PM
Mike Williams would be a nice pick but we have quality receivers now, we need to concentrate on getting better up front, it is hard to throw the ball consistently well went you are running for your life.....our sack total went up this year not down as it should be if your line is progressing. We need quality linemen that will be here for several years. The Line blocks and the Line pass protects and all offense begins and ends with the Line. Remember how valuable Bruce Mathews and Mike Muncheck was to the Oilers and Earl Campbell and Warren Moon. Build a strong line and the offense will be very productive. :BananaWav

Ibar_Harry
01-09-2005, 03:14 PM
The Texan's stunk on the final game of the season. David must admit this.

The Texan's have the 13 pick next year, and they are in dire need of offensive linemen. Seth Wand stinks! I only had to watch him let DC get killed or chased out of the pocket on almost ever passing play. No statistics are out on the number of sacks he allowed, but I'll put money on it that it was high.

On the offensive side of the ball. Mark Brunner did an admiral job. He should have had more balls thrown his way. He proved that he can catch. Chester Pitts is solid. Todd Wade was too even with his injury. All the others are questionable.

On the defensive side of the ball, Seth Payne showed glimpses of dominance. Gary Walker was a non-factor not an X-Factor. Robaire Smith can't get through the O-line by himself. So, the Texans' must draft D-linemen desperately.

The Texan's need a receiver, a tightend....their pick from 2 years ago is a total bust. They need at least 1 stud O-lineman, at least 1 stud D-lineman, a cornerbackthat can be groomed....Aaron Glenn is good, but he's getting older.

With that said, the Texan's only scored 26 more points than last year. Only 26, did you hear me! I've said it for 3 years now....Fire Chris Palmer. He stays with the run way to much....way into the 3rd quarter when we need to pass the ball because we are way behind. He always runs on 1st down. He always calls the same run on 1st, run on 2nd, throw on 3rd. This usually takes place in the 3rd quarter, too. He stayed away from play calling to A.J. late in the year. He waits to long to get everyone involved. He doesn't throw on 1st downs, and he rarely runs the play action pass....he prefers the roll out. He turns completely conservative once the Texan's get a lead instead of blowing the game open. It's run, run, run. I'm sorry, but the Texan's don't have an Earl Campbell.

This was the year that Palmer was supposed to focus more on the play calling. Boy, what a job. He engineered 26 more points with fewer job responsibilities. When the Texan's had nothing to play for, Palmer still didn't open up the offense. Why should I expect anything different from him. He hasn't done it in the previous two years either. He's a former Oiler coach. Play to not lose the game....don't play to win. The players just don't appear to be sold on his system.

The offensive line and it's experiment should have been a commercial for Tinker Toys. Seth Wand was a bust! Zone Blocking....was it really that good, or did we play some poor run defenses.....save Jacksonville. The offensive line couldn't block the USC Trojan's much less less pro's There wasn't much fire in their eyes. So, I'm not sold on Joe Pendry's blocking scheme, but then he may not be the one who wanted to implement it. We don't know because he doesn't talk. Where's Carl Mauck when you need him.

I like Dom Caper's and Vic Fangio. Vic's defenses always start off the year slow but they usually end up with a bang. It seems like his play calling gets better as the season goes on. Dom is a perfectionist, but he needs to crack the whip on his offensive coordinator. He needs to tell him....get me some points....not just yardage. Yardage doesn't win games, nor does blaming the players.

I predicted 9-7 this year, and I would have been right had the Texan's not looked flat in Detroit and here with Cleveland. Instead, we are a loser with all our hopes riding on next year for the fourth year in a row. Hmm! I haven't seen that much drastic improvement from any of the three years. I predict we might win more games next season. Maybe we will win 9 games next year, but I bet we would more with a new offensive coordinator. Look at Marty Schotenheimer, and you can see that it can be done, but not with the coach (offensive coordinator) that we currently have in place. But even Schotenheimer said he had to change his thinking, but Palmer is a stallwart and resistant to change. The fact is something had better change Charlie Casserly and Bob McNair, or those seats aren't going to be full to much longer.

Am I really a pessamist....I think not. I am a realist. I turned the Cleveland game off at the beginning of the 3rd quarter because I knew the Texan's weren't going to win. Wow! I was right! I've been right before. I just hope that I'm not right about next year, but I doubt than anything will change with the offensive play calling and I believe the Texan's will be mediocre at best in the offensive catagory, but only time will tell. I haven't been wrong yet! The Texan's are :loser's no matter how you slice the pie.

The Hit-Man!

Everyone is talking about this year's improvement. But when you look at strength of schedule and compare it to how we finished last season, I'm not so certain the statistics being quoted as showing improvement mean much. I think most of us at the end of last season were really looking forward to this year and we thought we would see a lot of improvement. Part of that is because of injuries and I still maintain that has set us back up to 2-3 years. That I don't blame the coaches for, but where are the people who performed so well at the end of last year. Will we see coaching changes prior to the next season, probably not, should we, probably yes. I hope I'm wrong in my accessment of what's in store for us next year, but I think we are all going to be a lot more unhappy than you think unless we make a big splash in the FA market and the draft. We may need to give up the 13 and pick up a couple of quality people further down in the draft. We need bodies and good ones to fill all of the holes. We also need BJ, Payne and others to get healthy and reappear as players.

Honoring Earl 34
01-09-2005, 03:49 PM
:howdy: I'll bet that after Mike Williams gets measured and timed he will not be as highly thought of.I'm not saying Gaffney is great but we used a high 2nd on him.You could have TO and Moss with Gates as your tight end and Carr still would not have time to throw.Either we don't have the talent or we don't have the coaching on the OL.
If we're not going to build a line for Carr then its a shame we don't play a 4-3 defense . We would be farther along drafting Julius Peppers.

THEFUTURE
01-09-2005, 03:50 PM
Mike Williams would be a nice pick but we have quality receivers now, we need to concentrate on getting better up front, it is hard to throw the ball consistently well went you are running for your life

Ive said before im not quite sold on the idea of having gaff and bradford as the other options at wide receiver, but thats just me... and i have also said i dont see a OL being taken especially with our 13th pick... if we want more results next year, than putting in a rookie OLmen isnt going to help matters...if anything i think it might hurt more. the only real possibilities i see are taking a skill player( Williams preferably :D ), a DE, or trading for more picks...taking a OL is just something i would rather leave to FA

hopefully we can address both, making everyone happy...im sure charley has got something up his sleave :headbang:

infantrycak
01-09-2005, 07:23 PM
:loser Until you are wearing coaching credentials and standing on the sideline or sitting in the coaches' box, please refrain from telling me how a linemen performed without knowing what his assignment or task is on each play. To do so is, well, absurd.

Funny, isn't that exactly Casserly and every other scout/GM's job when evaluating FA's and potential draft picks? Yup. And how do they do it?--with game film--that tool you consider completely useless without knowing the assignments. Care to go for the truly absurd and claim they get all the assignments from all the college and pro-teams? I'm calling that game, set and match.

beerlover
01-09-2005, 07:40 PM
Chester Pitts was playing through injury against the Browns, which explains a lot. It states the Texans still lack depth in several key positions. The offensive line will be addressed you can bet your sweet bippy on that :hairpull:

trijcomm
01-09-2005, 09:44 PM
Funny, isn't that exactly Casserly and every other scout/GM's job when evaluating FA's and potential draft picks? Yup. And how do they do it?--with game film--that tool you consider completely useless without knowing the assignments. Care to go for the truly absurd and claim they get all the assignments from all the college and pro-teams? I'm calling that game, set and match.

Yeah, like Casserly sits around watching game film all the time and makes decisions without knowing the assignments and without Capers input. You must be trolling. :listening

THE_HONKEY_TONK_KID
01-09-2005, 10:06 PM
I think what we do in the draft will be determined on who we let go in this offseason and who we do and don't sign. Our DL is a major question mark. Only Smith performed to what he should have. I think Payne will get stronger and back to his old self with work this offseason--that second surgery set him way back and I'm surprised he started the first game and last game of the season. I wonder how much comentment there is in the front office to this guy. Gary Walker is going no where fast. Literally. I think Chasserly and the coaching staff are letting him get by just because he made the Pro Bowl in the Expansion Season and crossing their fingers he can have another season like he did that first year, but I don't think so.

We are going to have to address both of these guys this offseason. Hovan would be a good fit for us a nose tackle, but he has had problems up in Minnesota with being fresh. As for Walker, I don't know where we could find a replacement for him, in FA or the draft.

I agree OL is a major issue, but if we are going to address it, it will have to be in FA to benefit us at all in the near future. If we take a OL in the draft, it will have to be with the #13 pick. If we take one in the later rounds, he will not make an impact this next season whatsoever. I was hoping we would take Jacob Rogers last year in the second round, but that was before we traded away everything for Babin. I think we will have to find one though FA again like the past 2 offseasons, and I don't know what is out there to like. Walter Jones is going to be at too much of a price for us.

When we pick at #13 there are three people that come to mind. Derrick Johnson who I don't beleive will be there at #13, Mike Williams who will, and Carlos Rogers who will. I wouldn't mind taking either Williams or Rogers, I think they would be perfect fits for us, but they wouldn't fill our most pressing needs. Jaamal Brown from OU would be available at #13 and I think he is the only OT in this draft who could make an immediate impact.

As for DE's, I wonder if Eramus James would fit in our 3-4 scheme at end? Shawn Cody of USC will be availabe later and we can trade down for him.

In the end, I think we are going to be dissapointed in this offseason. Anyway we go its going to have its questions and we are going to leave something major left out. I mean maybe we get DL help, but none for the OL or it could be the other way around. I think anyway you look at it, Casserly is going to really be sweating this 1 out.

infantrycak
01-09-2005, 10:16 PM
Yeah, like Casserly sits around watching game film all the time and makes decisions without knowing the assignments and without Capers input. You must be trolling. :listening

Rare smilie use here-----
:rofl:

Ask the driver of the short yellow school bus to pull over and ask her--she will tell you the other 31 teams aren't giving up the individual assignments for each play so Charlie can grade their free agents and Charlie isn't sitting around with individual assignments from all the college teams so he can evaluate draft choices. They look at game film--exactly what you say can't be done. Don't worry about the delay in your trip, you reached the outskirts of la-la land a while ago.

powda
01-09-2005, 10:17 PM
unless i misunderstood the texans have the largest scouting staff in the nfl. and uptodate cass and the staff have been on the money with their top picks...

carr = easily the potential to be better then average (if not already) with a chance to be something special given the right pieces around him.

johnson = pro bowl

robinson = cheated according to many out of defensive rookie of the year and or a trip to the pro bowl.

(i dont include babin due to various reasons...i think he was tagged as our 2 and the texans moved hastily to aquire him by trade once they had information he wouldnt be there...he will pan out)

whats the point of this? casserly has been bullseye with his top picks so far ,and i have faith in whatever they do. the rest of the draft (specifically last year) was frustrating. we all had our pet players and had gone to war with one another about this need and that player...etc...what happened? we didnt have half of those picks...and who the hell coulda ever guessed we'd select jamal lord as a safety? i spent enough time last year deciding what the texans would do only to be blown outta the watter with pretty much everyone else.

this year im not going to prognasticate farther then the first round or reoccuring tendencies. we will make a trade. we will draft at least 1 rehabbing player. we will take a qb late if a good one slips.

the only other thing ill speculate about is a trade back. its not going to happen in the first round this year. this maybe the last draft the texans pick this high (so they hope). they're not aiming for multiple picks yet. they're looking for another core player ( or 2 :hmmm:...and im thinking potential pro bowler when i say core player). next year or perhaps the year after the texans probably trade back for multiple 2s and 3s to upgrade the depth. right now we're trying to upgrade our starters...

an excercise in futility but i suppose its fun...till draft day comes around if your obssesed.

texasguy346
01-09-2005, 10:17 PM
You can get impact OLinemen in the draft. Just ask San Diego. They started a 7th Round rookie RT from the Ohio State University, and they seemed to do pretty well. I don't think you neccessarily have to go to FA to find a quality OLineman that can make an immediate impact. You also don't have to go high in the draft either. It's usually a safer bet, but that's not always the case. I think its much more important for the OLine to gel, and if we can get some young guys in here at OG and C who will push the vets then it will only make our OLine improve.

TexansTrueFan
01-09-2005, 10:24 PM
unless i misunderstood the texans have the largest scouting staff in the nfl. and uptodate cass and the staff have been on the money with their top picks...

carr = easily the potential to be better then average (if not already) with a chance to be something special given the right pieces around him.

johnson = pro bowl

robinson = cheated according to many out of defensive rookie of the year and or a trip to the pro bowl.

(i dont include babin due to various reasons...i think he was tagged as our 2 and the texans moved hastily to aquire him by trade once they had information he wouldnt be there...he will pan out)

whats the point of this? casserly has been bullseye with his top picks so far ,and i have faith in whatever they do. the rest of the draft (specifically last year) was frustrating. we all had our pet players and had gone to war with one another about this need and that player...etc...what happened? we didnt have half of those picks...and who the hell coulda ever guessed we'd select jamal lord as a safety? i spent enough time last year deciding what the texans would do only to be blown outta the watter with pretty much everyone else.

this year im not going to prognasticate farther then the first round or reoccuring tendencies. we will make a trade. we will draft at least 1 rehabbing player. we will take a qb late if a good one slips.

the only other thing ill speculate about is a trade back. its not going to happen in the first round this year. this maybe the last draft the texans pick this high (so they hope). they're not aiming for multiple picks yet. they're looking for another core player ( or 2 :hmmm:...and im thinking potential pro bowler when i say core player). next year or perhaps the year after the texans probably trade back for multiple 2s and 3s to upgrade the depth. right now we're trying to upgrade our starters...

an excercise in futility but i suppose its fun...till draft day comes around if your obssesed.


Very good post !

trijcomm
01-10-2005, 12:22 PM
Rare smilie use here-----
:rofl:

Ask the driver of the short yellow school bus to pull over and ask her--she will tell you the other 31 teams aren't giving up the individual assignments for each play so Charlie can grade their free agents and Charlie isn't sitting around with individual assignments from all the college teams so he can evaluate draft choices. They look at game film--exactly what you say can't be done. Don't worry about the delay in your trip, you reached the outskirts of la-la land a while ago.

:shocked It sounds to me like you aren't even in the game today. Try again tomorrow. :BananaWav

Ibar_Harry
01-10-2005, 12:36 PM
You can get impact OLinemen in the draft. Just ask San Diego. They started a 7th Round rookie RT from the Ohio State University, and they seemed to do pretty well. I don't think you neccessarily have to go to FA to find a quality OLineman that can make an immediate impact. You also don't have to go high in the draft either. It's usually a safer bet, but that's not always the case. I think its much more important for the OLine to gel, and if we can get some young guys in here at OG and C who will push the vets then it will only make our OLine improve.

That same RT would have been available to us. Is it possible we are not good at evaluating O-linemen or D-linemen? Or is it possible we do not know how to coach linemen into being effective linemen? Or did we think we already had our bases covered with FA? These are some interesting questions, because we focused on Defense with our last picks.

texasguy346
01-10-2005, 12:51 PM
I really don't think it was a matter of evaluating talent because Olivea was graded as a 3rd rounder before his injury. His injury made him slip down late into the draft, and as you may remember we had already gambled by taking Earl who was recovering from an injury as well. We had Wade in place, and I'm sure the coaches must have factored in Wand's improvement coupled with Pitts having experience playing LT. If we had taken Olivea in the 6th round before the Chargers got him then we would've possibly taken three players who were recovering from injury. Earl, Symmons, and Olivea.

Honoring Earl 34
01-10-2005, 04:51 PM
:howdy: I think in our first draft we selected 2 OL and 3 DL.2nd draft we took Wand and I think Milford Brown in the suplemental.Thats 4 young OL,wich ones standout.How many are not on the roster.