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The Pencil Neck
12-04-2008, 12:13 PM
I didn't see this posted anywhere but...

On NFL Total Access, they had a piece on Second Guesses. And Mike Mayock second guessed himself. He said that he had a 4th round grade on Steve Slaton and he was wrong. He said that Slaton at the 89th pick has totally outperformed most of the other 10 running backs taken before him including/especially McFadden.

Ole Miss Texan
12-04-2008, 12:17 PM
I didn't see this posted anywhere but...

On NFL Total Access, they had a piece on Second Guesses. And Mike Mayock second guessed himself. He said that he had a 4th round grade on Steve Slaton and he was wrong. He said that Slaton at the 89th pick has totally outperformed most of the other 10 running backs taken before him including/especially McFadden.

There was no question about who would have better value: McFadden at #4 or Slaton in the 3rd round.

I don't think Baltimore is second guessing their trade with us for Joe Flacco! I think that trade was a win-win for both teams.

thunderkyss
12-04-2008, 12:22 PM
Man, we got Mario Williams, and Steve Slaton....


Now, all we need is a QB, and we can put the '06 draft behind us.

Brando
12-04-2008, 12:24 PM
Man, we got Mario Williams, and Steve Slaton....


Now, all we need is a QB, and we can put the '06 draft behind us.

Why? That was our best draft class ever.

TEXANS84
12-04-2008, 01:10 PM
People tend to forget (not taking anything away from Slaton), but in the last four years in Denver, Alex Gibbs had four different runningbacks gain more than 4.6 yards per carry.

It's partially Slaton, partially Gibbs ZBS.

BigBull17
12-04-2008, 01:12 PM
People tend to forget (not taking anything away from Slaton), but in the last four years in Denver, Alex Gibbs had four different runningbacks gain more than 4.6 yards per carry.

It's partially Slaton, partially Gibbs ZBS.

Great post. Slaton is a perfect fit for his system, but the system makes guys look great. One more solid ZBS RB and we have a stable.

nunusguy
12-04-2008, 01:26 PM
I like Mayocks work on www.nfl and coverage of college players coming out for the Draft and appreciate his candor about being wrong.
BTW, as I recall Rashard Mendenhall was his top rated RB in the '08 Draft.

mexican_texan
12-04-2008, 01:27 PM
People tend to forget (not taking anything away from Slaton), but in the last four years in Denver, Alex Gibbs had four different runningbacks gain more than 4.6 yards per carry.

It's partially Slaton, partially Gibbs ZBS.
Backups in Alex Gibbs' system did very well, sometimes better than the starter. Is Ahman Green the TJ Duckett to Slaton's Warrick Dunn?

Blake
12-04-2008, 01:37 PM
People tend to forget (not taking anything away from Slaton), but in the last four years in Denver, Alex Gibbs had four different runningbacks gain more than 4.6 yards per carry.

It's partially Slaton, partially Gibbs ZBS.

Good points. But you have to give credit to the little man. He never quits trying to move forward and that play where he drags 2 defenders into the endzone was just 1 of his amazing plays this year.

Carr Bombed
12-04-2008, 01:42 PM
Backups in Alex Gibbs' system did very well, sometimes better than the starter. Is Ahman Green the TJ Duckett to Slaton's Warrick Dunn?

Warrick Dunn was a player before and after Alex Gibbs....

While the zone scheme we run is RB friendly I hardly believe it's a big reason why Slaton is doing as well as he is. First of all we pretty much have no center (seriously the guy gets picked up and thrown into the backfield) and I still haven't seen any cut blocks, plus this is year 1 running this system with a rookie RB. The Denver system always produces solid runners, but Slaton is one of the runners (like Portis) who could have alot of success elsewhere as well.

GP
12-04-2008, 01:52 PM
Gibbs has earned his paycheck pretty quickly. I do wonder about the lack of a short yardage attack, though, and I hope that this area will be improved as Gibbs gets more time to change the running game more.

None of the other Kubiak-drafted RBs did anything. But then again, Gibbs wasn't here yet. But then again again, Slaton might have done OK without Gibbs. ? I think Gibbs and Slaton are just a solid fit when you get right down to it. Slaton seems to be doing what's required of a ZBS running back: Get upfield (fast) and look for the seam and hit it without hesitating.

There should be a proper ratio for media analysts: They rant and rave for months before the draft about who is going to do well and who is overrated. They rant and rave during the combine, during the draft, and during camps. And then they make a quick mention of their goof ups on one night's program and that's atonement? How about Mayock repeatedly admitting his mistakes on every show he does until it equals how many times he originally ranted and ragged on a draft selection? 50% ratio would be OK, to me.

And we wonder why they are so loosey goosey with their opinions all the time. It's because they have virtually nobody to remind them of their wrong predictions. LOL. But nooooo....they all gotta' act like they know exactly what's going to happen, and if they didn't pick it? Then it's stoopid (in their eyes). That's how the NFL draft game is played with the talking heads.

TEXANS84
12-04-2008, 01:53 PM
Backups in Alex Gibbs' system did very well, sometimes better than the starter. Is Ahman Green the TJ Duckett to Slaton's Warrick Dunn?

Good question.

In 1995 Terrell Davis had a YPC of 4.7 (1117 yards), backups Craver and Milburn averaged 5.0 YPC (599 yards combined).

In 1996 Terrell Davis had a YPC of 4.5 (1538 yards), backups Craver and Hebron averaged 4.6 YPC (494 yards combined).

In 1997 Terrell Davis had a YPC of 4.7 (1750 yards), backups Hebron and Loville averaged 4.8 YPC (346 yards combined).

In 1998 Terrell Davis had a YPC of 5.1 (2008 yards), backups Loville and Brister averaged 4.2 YPC (263 yards combined).

In 1999 Terrell Davis was hurt, so Orlandis Gary had a YPC of 4.2 (1159 yards), backups Loville averaged 5.1 YPC (203 total yards)

In 2000 Mike Anderson had a 5.0 YPC (1487 yards), with backups Davis and Coleman averaged 3.5 YPC (465 yards combined).

In 2001 Mike Anderson and Terrell Davis had a combined 4.0 YPC (1379 yards combined)

In 2002 Clinton Portis had a YPC of 5.5 (1508 yards) with backups Anderson and Gary averaged 4.3 YPC (533 combined yards)

In 2003 (Gibbs last season) Clinton Portis had a YPC of 5.5 (1591 yards) with backups Griffin and Anderson averaged 3.7 YPC (602 yards combined).


The system works. Plug and play.

TEXANRED
12-04-2008, 02:11 PM
Great post. Slaton is a perfect fit for his system, but the system makes guys look great. One more solid ZBS RB and we have a stable.

So should we strip Joe Montana and Steve Young of there HOF jackets cus the WC system made them look good?

leebigeztx
12-04-2008, 02:13 PM
Also, Gibbs drafts the ol and rb. Not only that, he coaches both in concert with each other.

Ole Miss Texan
12-04-2008, 02:21 PM
In some cases backups do have better yards per carry/catch averages than the starters. It doesn't mean they are better though. It's all about WHEN a player is used and what situation they're in. For example, 3rd down backs. It's easier to run against a nickle or dime package than it is with 7 or 8 players in the box.

Ole Miss Texan
12-04-2008, 02:25 PM
So should we strip Joe Montana and Steve Young of there HOF jackets cus the WC system made them look good?

No, they did what they did... and did it very well! When you have a certain system in place and you find the right people to fit that system, they are usually pretty good. These two just happened to be great.

I don't want to take anything away from Montana or Young at all, but do you think they would have been more successful or less successful in a different system?

beerlover
12-04-2008, 02:27 PM
I'm surprised if this is not moved to the draft forum but what the heck its what we do. Mike Mayock is just like anyone of us who absorb College Football & translate it to the NFL via the Draft, Combine & all sources of speculation leading up to & after the facts are known.

hard to imagine knowing what we know now that anybody would take Steve Slaton over Chris Johnson, Tennessee or Matt Forte, Chicago. McFadden, Stewart & Mendenhall have all battled injurys. Ray Rice has looked explosive @ times while Kevin Smith only needs to get stronger. the player who has really dissapointed me is Jammal Charles, similar type of RB, so I thought, who has yet to produce of course it could just be the system & players around him in KC.....

anyway good pub & much deserved :)

GP
12-04-2008, 02:34 PM
I'm surprised if this is not moved to the draft forum but what the heck its what we do. Mike Mayock is just like anyone of us who absorb College Football & translate it to the NFL via the Draft, Combine & all sources of speculation leading up to & after the facts are known.

hard to imagine knowing what we know now that anybody would take Steve Slaton over Chris Johnson, Tennessee or Matt Forte, Chicago. McFadden, Stewart & Mendenhall have all battled injurys. Ray Rice has looked explosive @ times while Kevin Smith only needs to get stronger. the player who has really dissapointed me is Jammal Charles, similar type of RB, so I thought, who has yet to produce of course it could just be the system & players around him in KC.....

anyway good pub & much deserved :)

Yeah, but it's the fervor and flare that the talking heads use that bothers me.

If you have a national audience, you might not bang on certain draft picks too hard, too early, because of a deal like Steve Slaton. If the draft gurus would just tone down the attitude and the volume a little bit, maybe temper it with some positive aspects of taking a guy like Slaton in the 3rd rather than trying to wait for him in the 4th...then that's cool with me.

I mean, look at us. On this board. The talking heads should be more like us: Cool, calm, collected...slow to anger, quick to praise, etc. :spit:

BigBull17
12-04-2008, 02:47 PM
So should we strip Joe Montana and Steve Young of there HOF jackets cus the WC system made them look good?

What? Its not an insult. The system makes guys look good. The smaller, speedy, agile Slaton makes the system look good. Dayne wouldnt look good in a Gibbs ZBS. Its a correlation. Both parts are needed to make the whole look great.

buddyboy
12-04-2008, 02:48 PM
Gibbs has earned his paycheck pretty quickly. I do wonder about the lack of a short yardage attack, though, and I hope that this area will be improved as Gibbs gets more time to change the running game more.

None of the other Kubiak-drafted RBs did anything. But then again, Gibbs wasn't here yet. But then again again, Slaton might have done OK without Gibbs. ? I think Gibbs and Slaton are just a solid fit when you get right down to it. Slaton seems to be doing what's required of a ZBS running back: Get upfield (fast) and look for the seam and hit it without hesitating.

There should be a proper ratio for media analysts: They rant and rave for months before the draft about who is going to do well and who is overrated. They rant and rave during the combine, during the draft, and during camps. And then they make a quick mention of their goof ups on one night's program and that's atonement? How about Mayock repeatedly admitting his mistakes on every show he does until it equals how many times he originally ranted and ragged on a draft selection? 50% ratio would be OK, to me.

And we wonder why they are so loosey goosey with their opinions all the time. It's because they have virtually nobody to remind them of their wrong predictions. LOL. But nooooo....they all gotta' act like they know exactly what's going to happen, and if they didn't pick it? Then it's stoopid (in their eyes). That's how the NFL draft game is played with the talking heads.

Maybe I'm just going senile, but what other RBs did Kubiak draft? Walker was a UDFA, and i cant remember for the life of me any other drafted RBs

TEXANRED
12-04-2008, 02:51 PM
No, they did what they did... and did it very well! When you have a certain system in place and you find the right people to fit that system, they are usually pretty good. These two just happened to be great.

I don't want to take anything away from Montana or Young at all, but do you think they would have been more successful or less successful in a different system?

I was arguing the system makes the player great and not the player being great.

I think Slaton is a great player despite being in the ZBS. Just like he was great while playing in the spread. Slaton is a great player.

TEXANRED
12-04-2008, 02:54 PM
Maybe I'm just going senile, but what other RBs did Kubiak draft? Walker was a UDFA, and i cant remember for the life of me any other drafted RBs

That one guy we drafted in the 6th round. I cant remember his name. It was in 06.

infantrycak
12-04-2008, 02:56 PM
Warrick Dunn was a player before and after Alex Gibbs....

While the zone scheme we run is RB friendly I hardly believe it's a big reason why Slaton is doing as well as he is.

Sure players like Portis are still good runners, but look at the production difference.

With Gibbs in Denver (2 seasons) 5.5 ypc, 29 TD's, 24 runs of 20+ and 9 of 40+

In Washington (5 seasons/2.5 times the carries) 4.1 ypc, 43 TD's, 30 runs of 20+ and 3 of 40+

Still a very good back but more grinding than exploding. He didn't get any worse, but he isn't getting the long runs to bump his average up. And here sits Steve with 10 runs of 20+ and 4 of 40+. Looks more like Portis in Denver.

I still haven't seen any cut blocks

They have been there and even a few confrontations about them.

buddyboy
12-04-2008, 02:59 PM
That one guy we drafted in the 6th round. I cant remember his name. It was in 06.

Lundi! Ah, now i remember. Still, saying "None of the other Kubiak drafted RBs have been failures" kinda loses any strenght when there's only been...one. In the sixth round.

Texans_Chick
12-04-2008, 03:37 PM
Slaton is getting a lot of his yards his own self.

That being said, I think the best part of the Gibbs ZBS is that the running game and passing game look like they complement each other much better than what the Sherman stuff was doing.

That it isn't either or. That they can either run or they can pass but they can't do both in the same game. I think the offense has better flow with it being all Kubiak instead of a Kubiak/Sherman blend.

I think it also helps that knock on wood, the offensive line hasn't had any injuries and has been able to play together for a while. This is good for their development. It's not exactly where it could be, but is better than what a lot of teams in the NFL have going for them.

mexican_texan
12-04-2008, 05:44 PM
Slaton is getting a lot of his yards his own self.


Right, you can't credit the system completely when he's had to fit through tiny holes and fight off multiple defenders and drag them a couple of yards for a first down.

Brando
12-04-2008, 06:08 PM
Right, you can't credit the system completely when he's had to fit through tiny holes and fight off multiple defenders and drag them a couple of yards for a first down.

He does get more yards after being hit. That's another reason I like him, he's a tough runner.

Polo
12-04-2008, 06:17 PM
I think the ZBS has helped Slaton, but I have a hard time picturing him being any worse in any other respectable offense...

He does a lot of things just based on his talent alone...

76Texan
12-04-2008, 06:29 PM
Slaton doesn't waste time dancing in the backfield.
You give him a hole, and he will hit it with authority.
The amazing thing that great back does is that he can sometimes make people miss within a maze of big bodies.
(That play in the first series before AJ's TD where DE Harvey and MLB Smith found air.) If Leach could have finished the block on Smith as he usually does, that would have been six.

Thorn
12-04-2008, 07:33 PM
In his short time here, Slaton has become as important to our offense as AJ. Defenses now know they have to account for Slaton when he's in, just like they do with AJ. That's a pretty good one-two punch other teams have to think about now.

Ole Miss Texan
12-05-2008, 10:26 AM
Slaton has become a lot tougher runner than I expected. I loved seeing his leg drive and him keep fighting for extra yards, doing all sorts of squirming.

Slaton is instantly becoming a fan favorite!

bigbrewster2000
12-05-2008, 11:08 AM
In his short time here, Slaton has become as important to our offense as AJ. Defenses now know they have to account for Slaton when he's in, just like they do with AJ. That's a pretty good one-two punch other teams have to think about now.

And the Jacksonville game is a perfect example of a team already trying to account for him. That first play action we called, Sage was just chillin out there all alone saying to himself" Lets see here I have about 15 seconds to throw, so who should I throw it to. Oh there 's AJ."

badboy
12-05-2008, 11:28 AM
I think we should petition the NFL to allow us 3 points if Slaton takes it within 10 yards of the goal. We sure as heck can't get in after that for a TD. He told me he does his best but thinks he has a plan for Green Bay. If he gets within 10 yards he will fall to ground and roll towards the goalline. Theory is Packers will be so surprised he will score. I think he can roll almost as fast as our other backs run. The "drop and roll" can't be any less successful than plays Kubes calls at goal.

YoungTexanFan
12-05-2008, 11:38 AM
I don't think Baltimore is second guessing their trade with us for Joe Flacco! I think that trade was a win-win for both teams.

Why? We have the most turnover at the QB position in the league and we have a ****-tastic LT who was a major reach. How is that a win-win? You mean in the fact that the LT that we ended up with actually ended up costing us our starting QB at least 3 starts this year? (Allen's dirty hits are completely on Brown who just got destroyed on both plays). How is this a win-win? It's a win for the Ravens. I guess we got Slaton out of it, but what else is good about this? Baltimore isn't second guessing anything, we should be second guessing a lot.

Ole Miss Texan
12-05-2008, 12:09 PM
Why? We have the most turnover at the QB position in the league and we have a ****-tastic LT who was a major reach. How is that a win-win? You mean in the fact that the LT that we ended up with actually ended up costing us our starting QB at least 3 starts this year? (Allen's dirty hits are completely on Brown who just got destroyed on both plays). How is this a win-win? It's a win for the Ravens. I guess we got Slaton out of it, but what else is good about this? Baltimore isn't second guessing anything, we should be second guessing a lot.

Well Brown and Salaam have been changing out every few drives, so I'm not 100% sure about whose fault it is concerning the hits in question. I agree Brown has not been as good as we were all hoping up to this point. The way I see it is that the new Brown was raw and going to need a lot of coaching and he's a guy they liked for the team. We got Slaton out of the deal who has been absolutely phenominal and D. Barber who we're still wait and see. Brown was a long term pick, not an immediate impact pick. Salaam has looked just as bad if not worse than Brown, and the enterior of our OL has caused just as many hard hits on Schaub than the LT position. On top of that, the position we were in at #18 with all the top LT's off the board, who would they have picked? Rashard Mendenhall was a favorite of a lot of us (including me) but when healthy he didn't look as good as slaton. Several other players were considered reaches at the spots taken between #18 and #26 so they would have been reaches at #18...

Who would we have picked at #18?
Otah isn't a Gibbs guy
Talib wasn't a McNair guy
Baker was considered a reach at #21
Felix Jones, Rashard Mendenhall, Chris Johnson?- I'll take my chances with Slaton + the upside we have in a possible franchise LT handpicked by Gibbs + Barber (safety depth/ ST). Johnson has looked FANTASTIC but that pick would have been way out of left field.
or Mike Jenkins- he imo would have been the most likely candidate. so if we took him we wouldn't have Brown, Slaton or Barber and Molden's 3rd round spot would be open... maybe we take Slaton there and push back finding a LT untill the 4th rd + ?

I love how fluid and unpredictable the draft is. I still think its a win-win at this point in time with the upside of being very good for us. Maybe Jenkins and Slaton combo would have more impact right away.. but Molden has been exceptional on ST.

noxiousdog
12-05-2008, 12:44 PM
I agree Brown has not been as good as we were all hoping up to this point.

I totally disagree. Not only has he been able to start since day 1, he's gone up against a murderers row of pass rushers, and he's looked better than Salaam (08) in my opinion. In addition rushing numbers are up significantly.

Jake Long and Joe Thomas seem to have made the grade to this point, but they were #1 and #3 picks. Miami has 2 fewer sacks, but also a smaller yards per carry (even with the vaunted wildcat) than the Texans. Cleveland has 10 less, but a significantly smaller ypc. How many sacks can be attributed to the left tackle is up in the air of course.

According to football outsiders, here's adjusted yards per carry for the line at each of the holes:
Runs are listed by the NFL in seven different directions: left/right end, left/right tackle, left/right guard, and middle. Further research showed no statistically significant difference between how well a team performed on runs listed middle, left guard, and right guard, so we also list runs separated into five different directions. Note that there may not be a statistically significant difference between right tackle and middle/guard either, but until we can research further (and for the sake of symmetry) we do still split out runs behind the right tackle separately.


LE LT G-C-G RT RE
HOU 5.18 3.81 4.62 4.21 3.33
MIA 4.59 3.80 4.00 4.81 4.74
CLE 5.17 3.26 4.20 4.94 4.74
AVG 4.17 4.19 4.16 4.17 3.92

2007
LE LT G-C-G RT RE
HOU 4.92 4.46 4.18 4.67 4.11


AVG is league average, not the three teams.


Remember can't miss Robert Gallery? He couldn't start at LT at all.
Levi Brown (#5), is playing RT.



edit: added league average. and messed up the numbers. corrected. added 2007

GP
12-05-2008, 01:12 PM
Why? We have the most turnover at the QB position in the league and we have a ****-tastic LT who was a major reach. How is that a win-win? You mean in the fact that the LT that we ended up with actually ended up costing us our starting QB at least 3 starts this year? (Allen's dirty hits are completely on Brown who just got destroyed on both plays). How is this a win-win? It's a win for the Ravens. I guess we got Slaton out of it, but what else is good about this? Baltimore isn't second guessing anything, we should be second guessing a lot.

Let's not forget 2 consecutive 2nd rounders awarded to Atlanta so that we could get Matt Schaub.

Teams love it when Houston is ready to do a deal. :doot:

Goldensilence
12-05-2008, 01:19 PM
Well Brown and Salaam have been changing out every few drives, so I'm not 100% sure about whose fault it is concerning the hits in question. I agree Brown has not been as good as we were all hoping up to this point. The way I see it is that the new Brown was raw and going to need a lot of coaching and he's a guy they liked for the team. We got Slaton out of the deal who has been absolutely phenominal and D. Barber who we're still wait and see. Brown was a long term pick, not an immediate impact pick. Salaam has looked just as bad if not worse than Brown, and the enterior of our OL has caused just as many hard hits on Schaub than the LT position. On top of that, the position we were in at #18 with all the top LT's off the board, who would they have picked? Rashard Mendenhall was a favorite of a lot of us (including me) but when healthy he didn't look as good as slaton. Several other players were considered reaches at the spots taken between #18 and #26 so they would have been reaches at #18...

Who would we have picked at #18?
Otah isn't a Gibbs guy
Talib wasn't a McNair guy
Baker was considered a reach at #21
Felix Jones, Rashard Mendenhall, Chris Johnson?- I'll take my chances with Slaton + the upside we have in a possible franchise LT handpicked by Gibbs + Barber (safety depth/ ST). Johnson has looked FANTASTIC but that pick would have been way out of left field.
or Mike Jenkins- he imo would have been the most likely candidate. so if we took him we wouldn't have Brown, Slaton or Barber and Molden's 3rd round spot would be open... maybe we take Slaton there and push back finding a LT untill the 4th rd + ?

I love how fluid and unpredictable the draft is. I still think its a win-win at this point in time with the upside of being very good for us. Maybe Jenkins and Slaton combo would have more impact right away.. but Molden has been exceptional on ST.

Great post and question as to who would we have taken at #18. Agreed on not really sure if Salaam would've fared much better against the competition and so far it looks like Brown's confidence is intact. We knew the kid was raw when we took him and that was part of the gig for Gibbs. He wouldn't have to re-teach him. He hasn't been stellar but, he also wasn't an elite level talent like the tackles before him.I wonder statisitically how they are holding up compared to Brown.

YoungTexanFan
12-05-2008, 02:25 PM
Well Brown and Salaam have been changing out every few drives, so I'm not 100% sure about whose fault it is concerning the hits in question. I agree Brown has not been as good as we were all hoping up to this point. The way I see it is that the new Brown was raw and going to need a lot of coaching and he's a guy they liked for the team. We got Slaton out of the deal who has been absolutely phenominal and D. Barber who we're still wait and see. Brown was a long term pick, not an immediate impact pick. Salaam has looked just as bad if not worse than Brown, and the enterior of our OL has caused just as many hard hits on Schaub than the LT position. On top of that, the position we were in at #18 with all the top LT's off the board, who would they have picked? Rashard Mendenhall was a favorite of a lot of us (including me) but when healthy he didn't look as good as slaton. Several other players were considered reaches at the spots taken between #18 and #26 so they would have been reaches at #18...

Who would we have picked at #18?
Otah isn't a Gibbs guy
Talib wasn't a McNair guy
Baker was considered a reach at #21
Felix Jones, Rashard Mendenhall, Chris Johnson?- I'll take my chances with Slaton + the upside we have in a possible franchise LT handpicked by Gibbs + Barber (safety depth/ ST). Johnson has looked FANTASTIC but that pick would have been way out of left field.
or Mike Jenkins- he imo would have been the most likely candidate. so if we took him we wouldn't have Brown, Slaton or Barber and Molden's 3rd round spot would be open... maybe we take Slaton there and push back finding a LT untill the 4th rd + ?

I love how fluid and unpredictable the draft is. I still think its a win-win at this point in time with the upside of being very good for us. Maybe Jenkins and Slaton combo would have more impact right away.. but Molden has been exceptional on ST.

The video shows Brown being just demolished on both plays. Brutal. Slaton is the only positive out of the deal as I don't think many people actually believe Barber is an NFL safety. Brown was a long term pick, but those don't tend to work out as much when they become immediate starters. The thing is this: Brown has never once been average, let alone "good" while playing OT. Not once. This includes college. I think the offensive line as a whole took from adjusting time to get to Gibbs system, and while I don't think we are "there" yet, I think a large part of what Slaton has done is due to the system, though some of it is obviously his vision and cuts. With that said, I was, as always, a trade-down/back proponent last year. I was pretty upset when all the OT's were off the board. I could have settled for Jenkins, but I was a bigger supporter of trading back. I think we got the position right finally, but we got so focused on drafting a certain position to appease fans/McNair (he knows oil, not football). When the top 5-6 OT's were gone, I feel McNair still insisted on an OT being drafted to show "commitment" and that Alex Gibbs really did pick out Brown...after the actual first round talents were gone. Gibbs did his job.

mexican_texan
12-05-2008, 02:28 PM
Let's not forget 2 consecutive 2nd rounders awarded to Atlanta so that we could get Matt Schaub.

Teams love it when Houston is ready to do a deal. :doot:
On that note, Kyle Williams, who was drafted by Buffalo using our pick that we traded for Moulds, is turning into a good DT.

76Texan
12-05-2008, 02:45 PM
Why? We have the most turnover at the QB position in the league and we have a ****-tastic LT who was a major reach. How is that a win-win? You mean in the fact that the LT that we ended up with actually ended up costing us our starting QB at least 3 starts this year? (Allen's dirty hits are completely on Brown who just got destroyed on both plays). How is this a win-win? It's a win for the Ravens. I guess we got Slaton out of it, but what else is good about this? Baltimore isn't second guessing anything, we should be second guessing a lot.
Sorry, but the problem, I believe is that you have a disagreement with the pick of Duane Brown a bit to the excessive.

On that first play:
1. It was a defensive offside to start off with.
2. Brisiel couldnt decide on which defender to take, and as he hesitated, he threw off Slaton's timing as well. That allowed Edwards to come in first, and not letting Schaub step up in the pocket.
3. I wouldn't call getting beat after 2 secs "being destroyed".

On that second play, it was Salaam who was in there, not Duane Brown.

Salaam has been looking real shaky even lately, like in the Jags game.
He threw a nice cut block on his first play but then proceeded to make 4 mistakes in that 7-play series.

DBrick was having a lot of problems as fans on the Jets MB cried out at the time. An example:
"A year and a half into their Jets careers however, it appears that the Jets failed to get good value with Ferguson at the 4th overall pick. Granted left tackle is the hardest position to play outside of quarterback, Ferguson has failed to solidify the position. The jury is still out on Ferguson, though. There were reports that D’Brickashaw finished up the 2006 season at under 290lbs, which is definitely not good for a left tackle. He was pushed around as a rookie, especially in the run game. During the course of the 2006 season, he gave up ten sacks to opposing players."

Levi Brown didn't start but 11 games out of 13 his first yr.
He allowed 7.5 sacks in the first 7 games he played at RT.
I don't have the stats for the rest of the year.

Baker hasn't play but 5 games so far.
Otah 8
Cherilus started 9
William start none of the 5 games he played.

Long does not play full-time, and he got beat from time to time as well.
Here's some Fins fan's blog:
"STOCK DOWN
LT Jake Long - The top pick of the 2008 draft allowed his second sack of the season to Chargers outside linebacker Shaun Phillip when Pennington pulled down a throw intended for a seemingly open Ernest Wilford. That play was a borderline coverage sack, but the veteran quarterback rescued Long from many more missteps against the Chargers. By my count Long was beaten about five times but Pennington managed to get the ball off in time. The Chargers also proved that teams are also picking up on how to block the unbalanced line. It's on Long and right tackle Vernon Carey to be the bulldozers in that formation, presenting Brown running lane options in the Wildcat. Neither can afford to get stood up by a defensive lineman. At times on Sunday they were. Long also bailed on his teammates at a critical moment in the game, which drew a chuckle from me. After Brown scored on that 5-yard touchdown run the linemen were suppose to join him to do the Cupid Shuffle. After taking a look at the two-step Brown was doing with Carey and Ndukwe he clearly couldn't find the beat and walked off. No one likes a quitter Jake. Left tackles need good footwork ;)
Long has allowed at least 4 sacks so far this season."

The only one guy who stands out is Ryan Clady, and I believe Cutler has quite a bit to do with it.

Jackie Chiles
12-05-2008, 02:51 PM
The video shows Brown being just demolished on both plays. Brutal. Slaton is the only positive out of the deal as I don't think many people actually believe Barber is an NFL safety. Brown was a long term pick, but those don't tend to work out as much when they become immediate starters. The thing is this: Brown has never once been average, let alone "good" while playing OT. Not once. This includes college. I think the offensive line as a whole took from adjusting time to get to Gibbs system, and while I don't think we are "there" yet, I think a large part of what Slaton has done is due to the system, though some of it is obviously his vision and cuts. With that said, I was, as always, a trade-down/back proponent last year. I was pretty upset when all the OT's were off the board. I could have settled for Jenkins, but I was a bigger supporter of trading back. I think we got the position right finally, but we got so focused on drafting a certain position to appease fans/McNair (he knows oil, not football). When the top 5-6 OT's were gone, I feel McNair still insisted on an OT being drafted to show "commitment" and that Alex Gibbs really did pick out Brown...after the actual first round talents were gone. Gibbs did his job.

If you are referring to the Jared Allen plays, I know for certain that the 2nd hit, the one that I think did the most damage, was against Salaam. I watched that a good deal and Allen was actually beaten but Ephraim seemed to give up on the play instead of finishing the block and sitting on Allen's head. Just thinking of the play gets me pissed because it was so avoidable if Salaam just gets nasty.

As for Duane I have been disappointed with his play this year but it is true that he has had to face elite pass-rushers galore. I am very interested in seeing his progress next season, he needs to make a big jump. As good as Flacco looks, I doubt we would have seen the same player. Our offensive tackle position would be just as likely to have gotten him hit/injured and we have no where near the defense that the Ravens have. If you factor in the loss of the 3rd rounder that means no Slaton this year so we would have had no running game. Could we have instead gone with someone like Kenny Phillips after the trade down? Yeah but I'm willing to give Brown some time.

b0ng
12-05-2008, 03:52 PM
Let's not forget 2 consecutive 2nd rounders awarded to Atlanta so that we could get Matt Schaub.

Teams love it when Houston is ready to do a deal. :doot:

And that has what to do with Duane Brown and Steve Slaton? Oh yeah that's right. . .

Nothing at all.

beerlover
12-05-2008, 04:05 PM
see this goes back to the Texans coaching & their breakdown of offensive linemen talent. Salaam is a great guy but his skills have deteriorated. while still looking the part in long sets he can no longer finish, against a high motor player like Allen he gets owned in this case Matt too.

I've not been as dissapointed with Duane Brown, still raw & developing (love his attitude to get better & improve) as much as the coaching by Gibbs & Co. not sticking hard on DB or getting Butler more exposure. he's a young body, I assume working hard to earn playing time yet they truck in Ephraim to play significant minutes. Let Duane play the entire game @ LT I don't see Miami pull Long, or Denver pull Clady. everybody here said no to Otah but he has made a huge difference in Carloinas running game especially in the Red Zone. So it should be with Duane, time to cut him loose, unfasten the training wheels & quite making excuses then expect his game to tighten up.

GP
12-05-2008, 08:19 PM
And that has what to do with Duane Brown and Steve Slaton? Oh yeah that's right. . .

Nothing at all.

Oh, as if YOU are the poster child for staying on topic. LMAO!

Go take another hit on your bong, b0ng.

I was following up on something someone else said, which I didn't know was illegal according to the Message Board Police (You). I mess with Matt Schaub and you get your panties in a wad. Figures...

TEXANRED
12-05-2008, 08:27 PM
Why? We have the most turnover at the QB position in the league and we have a ****-tastic LT who was a major reach. How is that a win-win? You mean in the fact that the LT that we ended up with actually ended up costing us our starting QB at least 3 starts this year? (Allen's dirty hits are completely on Brown who just got destroyed on both plays). How is this a win-win? It's a win for the Ravens. I guess we got Slaton out of it, but what else is good about this? Baltimore isn't second guessing anything, we should be second guessing a lot.

Um, no. Brown has played as solid as a rookie can play. Has he played the best ever? No. But he has played above average as far as rookies go. Lets also not forget who he has played against.

You can't blame Brown for Schaub being Mr. Glass. I mean just the other day I saw Schaub walking down the street and accidentally sneezed on him and he sprained his ankle.

All Schaub does is heal just to get hurt again.

b0ng
12-05-2008, 09:31 PM
Oh, as if YOU are the poster child for staying on topic. LMAO!

Go take another hit on your bong, b0ng.

I was following up on something someone else said, which I didn't know was illegal according to the Message Board Police (You). I mess with Matt Schaub and you get your panties in a wad. Figures...

Ahh yes, I can totally see the point you're trying to make now that you've fleshed your argument out with well thought-out points and nice evidence to support your views. :goodpost:

Anyway, most of these draft guru's are wrong and are made fun of plenty. I think most people like to think that if their opinion is different than Mel Kiper Jr's then they are probably right. I know Mayock catches a whole bunch of crap for speaking in such absolute terms about guys who haven't taken a snap in the NFL yet.

Their analysis is usually fleshed out somewhat, and their reasoning is logical a lot of the time, but even then, players will surprise you and come out of the woodwork. Look at Peyton Hillis, or any of the other guys that come out of the later rounds.

It's rare that these guys even admit their mistakes, and that's the infuriating part.

thunderkyss
12-05-2008, 09:42 PM
People tend to forget (not taking anything away from Slaton), but in the last four years in Denver, Alex Gibbs had four different runningbacks gain more than 4.6 yards per carry.

It's partially Slaton, partially Gibbs ZBS.

I'm not forgetting anything. I'm definitely not forgetting the huge cut back lanes TD, and all those guys had to run through on a consistent basis.

Don't get me wrong, I can see our Big Uglies improving every game, but Steve Slaton is a big part of our running game.

You can't coach speed, and he's got speed.

When we can consistently make those big holes, and run the ball when we want, where we want, and how we want, then I'll be ready for the "any back" argument.

We've got a diamond in the rough, and there's nothing wrong, calling a spade a spade.

ObsiWan
12-06-2008, 08:01 AM
That one guy we drafted in the 6th round. I cant remember his name. It was in 06.

Wali Lundy...?
I think he had fumbling issues.
We also picked up Darius Walker post-draft.
Both of those guys had their moments but were nothing like Slaton.

Texan JBZ
12-06-2008, 11:47 PM
I think Duane Brown has performed above my expectations for him this season. He's a rookie playing possibly the second toughest position on offense behind QB. Not to mention he's went against Freeny, Harrison, Allen, and KVB this year. He's done okay imo. I like his athleticism. He really shows it on screen passes to his side. I think this guy has elite potential. He just needs more seasoning.

threetoedpete
12-07-2008, 03:30 AM
No, they did what they did... and did it very well! When you have a certain system in place and you find the right people to fit that system, they are usually pretty good. These two just happened to be great.

I don't want to take anything away from Montana or Young at all, but do you think they would have been more successful or less successful in a different system?

As I recall, San Fransico had thier own o-line guru....better, judging by the results, than ours. Bob Mckinnan...Mckittern.... he was pretty good. Got the cancer and passed...1999 or so.

TheRealJoker
12-07-2008, 03:38 AM
Threetoedpete, I remember when we drafted Slaton you weren't a big fan. Has Slaton made you a believer or is there still some stuff you'd like to see out of him before you hop on the bandwagon?

threetoedpete
12-07-2008, 03:43 AM
see this goes back to the Texans coaching & their breakdown of offensive linemen talent. Salaam is a great guy but his skills have deteriorated. while still looking the part in long sets he can no longer finish, against a high motor player like Allen he gets owned in this case Matt too.

I've not been as disappointed with Duane Brown, still raw & developing (love his attitude to get better & improve) as much as the coaching by Gibbs & Co. not sticking hard on DB or getting Butler more exposure. he's a young body, I assume working hard to earn playing time yet they truck in Ephraim to play significant minutes. Let Duane play the entire game @ LT I don't see Miami pull Long, or Denver pull Clady. everybody here said no to Otah but he has made a huge difference in Carloinas running game especially in the Red Zone. So it should be with Duane, time to cut him loose, unfasten the training wheels & quite making excuses then expect his game to tighten up.

I love his effort. Go against elite pass rushers in the NFL, you're going to give up a few. Watched Kwam Harris the other night.... we're in high cotton with Brown.

might be circumstance but everyones down Field blocking has improved since Brown has been in the line up. Contagious ?

Won't be banging on Brisiel anymore either after last week....Slaton breaks out of the pile....got three or four guys on his back...here comes Brisiel lumbering up the field...zeros in on one of them and picks him off Slaton's back. Effort and gives a damn, that's all I want.

Look you want perfect...spend two ones and jump up and go get Andre Smith. We can go to the super bowl with Daune Brown at OLT.

threetoedpete
12-07-2008, 03:54 AM
Threetoedpete, I remember when we drafted Slaton you weren't a big fan. Has Slaton made you a believer or is there still some stuff you'd like to see out of him before you hop on the bandwagon?

It's not just Slaton....and I have not banged him for his blocking..... He has wiffed more than a few this year. Like anything else....to get good at something you have to pratice it.

What I know for a fact is they got to have a complimmetary back to go with him. I watched this league catch up with Allen Pinket...and Salton is no where near the build that Pinket had. They are burning the man up right now... every time he hits the line and there's no hole there he's using up his NFL lives. They've got no choice. With out the play action pass this offense is doa.


Anythign out of the spread I'm going to bang....esecailly Rbs who don't have a lot of practice at blocking. He has elite speed and currenty it's working. the only question is how long will we have him...three seasons ? Four ? I'm going to be a lot more sold after the '09 draft.

TheRealJoker
12-07-2008, 11:04 AM
It's not just Slaton....and I have not banged him for his blocking..... He has wiffed more than a few this year. Like anything else....to get good at something you have to pratice it.

What I know for a fact is they got to have a complimmetary back to go with him. I watched this league catch up with Allen Pinket...and Salton is no where near the build that Pinket had. They are burning the man up right now... every time he hits the line and there's no hole there he's using up his NFL lives. They've got no choice. With out the play action pass this offense is doa.


Anythign out of the spread I'm going to bang....esecailly Rbs who don't have a lot of practice at blocking. He has elite speed and currenty it's working. the only question is how long will we have him...three seasons ? Four ? I'm going to be a lot more sold after the '09 draft.

I agree with you there, I think a strong center presence like an Olin Kreutz or prime Tom Nalen plus the thunder back will make this offense truly elite, the type of offense that can even throw up points against a top defense.

Then Portis 2.0 will really hit the next level.

Pantherstang84
12-07-2008, 11:22 AM
I agree with you there, I think a strong center presence like an Olin Kreutz or prime Tom Nalen plus the thunder back will make this offense truly elite, the type of offense that can even throw up points against a top defense.

Then Portis 2.0 will really hit the next level.

I also think we need a rib cracking RB. A Jerome Bettis type that cause DTs and LBs to wince in pain on short yardage plays.