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Norg
12-03-2008, 12:51 AM
O line if two people have 2 go during the OS who has to get Cut ????

knowing that we might get 1 new guy during the draft or FA

I say

CUt

Scott Jackson IR
Anthony Oakley PS
Rashad Butler T
Chris White C/G

and the starting lineup should be

T Eric Winston
G Chester Pitts
C Chris Myers
G Mike Brisiel
T Duane Brown

something radical has well would be decided if u wanna cut or move Adam from carolina & Dan who i think used to play for the pats on the PS and IR & Ephraim Salaam ,Kasey Studdard but duing this might make or depth pretty low

this was just off the top of my head thinking LOL iam no expert

barrett
12-03-2008, 01:13 AM
you're crazy to cut Butler and Jackson. Butler is our swing next year. White is valuable because he can play G and C. Unless someone we draft is better athletically, he's pretty useful.

perhaps you can look to the happless longhorn stable to find someone worth cutting....

Norg
12-03-2008, 01:43 AM
you're crazy to cut Butler and Jackson. Butler is our swing next year. White is valuable because he can play G and C. Unless someone we draft is better athletically, he's pretty useful.

perhaps you can look to the happless longhorn stable to find someone worth cutting....

iam sure there will be cuts on all three phases of the game esp the big contract players who dont live up

Carr Bombed
12-03-2008, 02:06 AM
Duane Brown is not a RT....... replace the center and add a guy who can atleast hold his position and the line will be fine.

TEXANS84
12-03-2008, 08:37 AM
On the way home from the game, Sirius NFL network was saying the Texans were close to being a good team, they just need help in two categories.

#1 - a consistant quarterback that stays healty

#2- Get rid of Chris Myers (center). They were dogging him left and right and said he looked like a player on rollerskates in that goalline 3 and out. They were saying "yeah, he's undersized like Gibbs and Kubiak like, but he's getting dominated way too much. They need to shore up that center position becuase that kid was on rollerskates the entire game, especially on that goalline 3 and out".

HJam72
12-03-2008, 08:47 AM
I usually don't feel qualified to get into details about the O-linemen, but I think if you look at the highlight runs by Slaton you'll see some pretty good stuff by our begrudged center. I don't doubt that he gets shoved back in short yardage situations and pass protection, though. I do think he's getting better, but I don't think he'll improve much more. OK, now I'm generalizing, so I'll shut up. :)

dalemurphy
12-03-2008, 09:01 AM
On the way home from the game, Sirius NFL network was saying the Texans were close to being a good team, they just need help in two categories.

#1 - a consistant quarterback that stays healty

#2- Get rid of Chris Myers (center). They were dogging him left and right and said he looked like a player on rollerskates in that goalline 3 and out. They were saying "yeah, he's undersized like Gibbs and Kubiak like, but he's getting dominated way too much. They need to shore up that center position becuase that kid was on rollerskates the entire game, especially on that goalline 3 and out".

I agee, generally. However, it's not just Myers, it's the combination of Myers and Briesel next to each other. I would argue that we need to upgrade at least one of those two spots. If we had a good RG next to Myers it would make him look better.

And, whoever suggested cutting Butler hasn't got a clue. Butler is good!

MojoMan
12-03-2008, 09:15 AM
Has anyone knowledgeable about offensive line play graded out the players at all five spots lately? It would be interesting to see a somewhat detailed evaluation of the players performance through perhaps the first 12 games of the season.

beerlover
12-03-2008, 09:53 AM
chris meyers has been competitive, played hard every down & works well in space. when the field compresses toward & in the red zone its easier for teams to dominate him @ the point of attack as Texans adjust/change to more conservative sets against loaded boxes & stunts plugging any gap through the middle, it would take someone massive to fend off those situations which is not indicitive of typical zbs players, thats on the coaching staff to spread out defenses & not deviate from their normal game plan.

same can be said for mike brisiel. both are young & working their butts off, lunch pale types with less than ideal athletic ability, who over achieve week after week. will the Texans feel the need to justify spending a high pick or big free agent signing to improve the inside? I hope so but you can bet its gonna be someone similar while improving things like hand punch, quick feet more powerful body mass & natural feel for zbs. right now its not killing the Texans to have them out there & considering what the Texans have invested they are both downright steals.

at the very least they will be with this team for along time if not starting providing capable back-up status which means Texans have some quality depth & probably become a winning franchise :)

HOU-TEX
12-03-2008, 10:52 AM
you're crazy to cut Butler and Jackson. Butler is our swing next year. White is valuable because he can play G and C. Unless someone we draft is better athletically, he's pretty useful.

perhaps you can look to the happless longhorn stable to find someone worth cutting....

I aree with you on Butler. The only way I see us cutting White would be if we were to replace Meyers it'd move Meyers to the backup position.

I agree with Dale as well. Presently, our C and RG are the weak links along our Oline. If we're unable to get replacements for them in the offseason, I expect the 2 positions open for competition.

badboy
12-03-2008, 01:09 PM
Our offense line and RBs are set up for quick slashing plays and not to power up the middle for 3-4 yards. We have been unable to keep a "power back" on the field. Why wasn't the full back allowed to follow a TE and a tackle into the end zone with Slaton being used as a decoy? I bet Slaton will be very sore this off season and I just hope he does not get a severe injury. D. Davis anyone?

Insideop
12-03-2008, 03:26 PM
chris meyers has been competitive, played hard every down & works well in space. when the field compresses toward & in the red zone its easier for teams to dominate him @ the point of attack as Texans adjust/change to more conservative sets against loaded boxes & stunts plugging any gap through the middle, it would take someone massive to fend off those situations which is not indicitive of typical zbs players, thats on the coaching staff to spread out defenses & not deviate from their normal game plan.

same can be said for mike brisiel. both are young & working their butts off, lunch pale types with less than ideal athletic ability, who over achieve week after week. will the Texans feel the need to justify spending a high pick or big free agent signing to improve the inside? I hope so but you can bet its gonna be someone similar while improving things like hand punch, quick feet more powerful body mass & natural feel for zbs. right now its not killing the Texans to have them out there & considering what the Texans have invested they are both downright steals.

at the very least they will be with this team for along time if not starting providing capable back-up status which means Texans have some quality depth & probably become a winning franchise :)

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head with this post BL.

As for upgrading in the off season, I think if they could get Alex Mack in the 1st (possibly by trading down) or Luigs in the 2nd it would help solidify the O-line. The problem is, I think they will be more inclined to go Defense with the first few rounds so I don't think Mack or Luigs will be drafted by us. JMHO!

nero THE zero
12-03-2008, 04:10 PM
Has anyone knowledgeable about offensive line play graded out the players at all five spots lately? It would be interesting to see a somewhat detailed evaluation of the players performance through perhaps the first 12 games of the season.

Your best bet is to listen to Lance Zierlein on 1560 in the mornings and read his blog on chron.com. His dad's the OL coach for Pitt, he has a ton of NFL connections, and is terribly knowledgeable about football.

From what I've gathered from him; Pitts has been surprisingly disappointing this season (though, keep in mind, this is relative to LZ's expectations that he quickly becomes the best OL under Gibbs' system,) Briesel is the most underrated lineman on the offense and has been very solid, Myers has been horrible aside from the Cleveland game, Brown is still very raw and could use a lot of improvement.

I don't think I'm qualified to analyze the play of the OL, but everything I've seen seem pretty congruous with LZ's takes.

Number19
12-03-2008, 07:24 PM
Meyer is listed as 6'-4", 293#. White as 6'-2", 285#. Offensive Center is one of the deepest positions in this coming draft. We need to take a C in the 3rd round : California's Alex Mack ( 6'-3", 310, est 5.1 ) Arkansas' Jonathan Luigs ( 6'-3", 310, est 5.1 ) Oregon's Max Unger ( 6'-4", 311, est 5.2 ).

Texans Horror
12-03-2008, 08:15 PM
I'm having a hard time reconciling using a first or second round pick on an offensive lineman when they are clearly doing well, and when the defensive line needs so much help.

Part of playing well is playing together. The line took a hit early in the season because three players were replaced. (Only Winston and Pitts remained from last year's line.) If anything, I think the line needs more time together, not necessarily new inserts.

As far as blocking on the goalline, I think that is where the Texans need a good short-yardage back. When Green wasn't injured, he was able to win the short-yardage battle. Now that the Texans don't have him or Dayne, they are no longer winning that battle.

Add to it the desperate need for another DE and a run-stopping defensive tackle, and I just don't think this is the year the Texans will take a new offensive lineman, unless it's late in the draft or a low-cost free agent, and then only as a backup.

Number19
12-03-2008, 08:43 PM
"Clearly doing so well" ? At about 114 yds per game, the Texans are middle of the pack. I agree they need one more season to come together, but this season they are only average. To beat the Colts and Titans, we need to be better than "average". I do not think we go offense with the first 2 picks. But there should be a quality Center available in the 3rd.

Texans Horror
12-03-2008, 09:11 PM
These are the Texans. Anything that isn't "abysmal," "horrendous," or "I'd Give Them an F, D- at Best" is doing very well. Average/middle of the pack is a good place. Besides, they are the fifth best offense, IIRC, and o-line is a huge piece in that puzzle. They have come a loooong way from Pittsburg, and they'll go farther next season.

Quality center in the third? Why not? It's not where I would put the pick, but as a long-time watcher of the Texans o-line, I'd never begrudge them taking a lineman in the third.

"Clearly doing so well" ? At about 114 yds per game, the Texans are middle of the pack. I agree they need one more season to come together, but this season they are only average. To beat the Colts and Titans, we need to be better than "average". I do not think we go offense with the first 2 picks. But there should be a quality Center available in the 3rd.

Insideop
12-03-2008, 11:50 PM
Meyer is listed as 6'-4", 293#. White as 6'-2", 285#. Offensive Center is one of the deepest positions in this coming draft. We need to take a C in the 3rd round : California's Alex Mack ( 6'-3", 310, est 5.1 ) Arkansas' Jonathan Luigs ( 6'-3", 310, est 5.1 ) Oregon's Max Unger ( 6'-4", 311, est 5.2 ).

Two of these Centers you mention (Mack & Luigs) are projected to be gone by the 3rd round, and other than those 2 I don't think anyone else would be an upgrade over Myers. Also, everyone keeps saying this is a deep draft for Centers, but I'm not seeing it. Mack is head and shoulders above the rest and is probably the only one NFL ready to step in from day one from what I've read. Luigs is good too, but after that there seems to be a big drop off in talent. So, to me, unless they get Mack in the 1st or Luigs in the 2nd they probably won't get a Center unless it is a late round project. They have too many other holes to fill (DE, OLB, Power RB, etc...). JMHO!

beerlover
12-03-2008, 11:54 PM
I'm having a hard time reconciling using a first or second round pick on an offensive lineman when they are clearly doing well, and when the defensive line needs so much help.

Part of playing well is playing together. The line took a hit early in the season because three players were replaced. (Only Winston and Pitts remained from last year's line.) If anything, I think the line needs more time together, not necessarily new inserts.

As far as blocking on the goalline, I think that is where the Texans need a good short-yardage back. When Green wasn't injured, he was able to win the short-yardage battle. Now that the Texans don't have him or Dayne, they are no longer winning that battle.

Add to it the desperate need for another DE and a run-stopping defensive tackle, and I just don't think this is the year the Texans will take a new offensive lineman, unless it's late in the draft or a low-cost free agent, and then only as a backup.

its very probable this line is the same line next year, all still young & improving. I'm also big on trading back to add more solid draft picks, any one of which should be added into the OL mix thats how competant GM's layer the roster with depth, maybe they get lucky & find someone in the 3rd rd. who actually wins out a roster spot? that may be a reach but never say never trying to stay focused on the O line since this is its intended thread.

Watch Alabama Center Antoine Caldwell this Saturday against Florida, he would be a good fit for ZBS is athletic, moves down field & cut blocks backside second level already. not massive but good frame 6026 298 natural athlete with above average pass protection skills. of course when talking Bamas OL everyones All-American LT Andre Smith gets plenty of attention, some think the top overall pick of the draft so a player like Caldwell may not grab the national spotlight with so much talent around him but don't think scouts don't stop, take notes & come back later for questions. playing under Sabin in the SEC competing for the right to play in the BCS bowl game makes a nice little resume indeed.

barrett
12-04-2008, 02:35 AM
Your best bet is to listen to Lance Zierlein on 1560 in the mornings and read his blog on chron.com. His dad's the OL coach for Pitt, he has a ton of NFL connections, and is terribly knowledgeable about football.

From what I've gathered from him; Pitts has been surprisingly disappointing this season (though, keep in mind, this is relative to LZ's expectations that he quickly becomes the best OL under Gibbs' system,) Briesel is the most underrated lineman on the offense and has been very solid, Myers has been horrible aside from the Cleveland game, Brown is still very raw and could use a lot of improvement.

I don't think I'm qualified to analyze the play of the OL, but everything I've seen seem pretty congruous with LZ's takes.

i've missed that in his evaluation. furthermore, everytime i sit down and watch the Oline he is clearly the best WE have. Winston is the most inconsistent. One play he's the best ever and the next he's out of position and using bad technique. simlar to Brown in that sense which is odd since he's in his 3rd year now. Meyers and Brisel are very consistently below average. I do think that all 5 will return next year though and I expect improvement out of those two guys just from shear reps but talent seems to be their biggest obstacle. I see our depth improving next year and we never EVER have to see studdard again!

leebigeztx
12-04-2008, 03:01 AM
I would like to see them take a look at LeCharles Bentley. He's big,stout and very atheletic. He was pro bowl caliber, went to cleveland , got hurt and was cut in preseason. He's 27 or so and fits. I think getting a center who can get movement up front and make the line calls would really help.

Runner
12-04-2008, 08:16 AM
Every year we see teams that excel because they play well or dominate in the trenches. Those are the guys that make the other players on the field better on both sides of the ball. I want to see improved line play on both sides of the ball. I'm yet to be convinced the Texans can identify the correct talent, much less acquire it. If they could change that, QB, LB, and, DB performance would all improve.

dalemurphy
12-04-2008, 09:40 AM
i've missed that in his evaluation. furthermore, everytime i sit down and watch the Oline he is clearly the best WE have. Winston is the most inconsistent. One play he's the best ever and the next he's out of position and using bad technique. simlar to Brown in that sense which is odd since he's in his 3rd year now. Meyers and Brisel are very consistently below average. I do think that all 5 will return next year though and I expect improvement out of those two guys just from shear reps but talent seems to be their biggest obstacle. I see our depth improving next year and we never EVER have to see studdard again!



I don't think Winston is inconsistant. As a less than elite pass blocking tackle, I think he just gets beat on occasion. However, I don't ever see him losing battles in the run game. And, for the most part, his pass blocking is good. I think Brown is easily the best LT we've ever had here. While he's certainly struggled with Harrison, Porter, and Freeney, he can do so many things well. He is excellent in space. I totally disagree with LZ (who I respect a great deal) that Brown is not a good run blocker. I think he's the best on the team, other than perhaps Butler, at making the backside cut blockson the second level.

On the interior line, I've always been less than impressed with Chester Pitts but have accepted that I must be wrong about him because of so many of those I respect saying he's been good for years. I think Myers is pretty good in pass blocking and getting to the second level on runs. However, it's hard not to see what can happen to him when he gets shoved on by a big guy- I was unable to see the Cleveland game so I missed him at his best. Briesel whiffs too often. I haven't noticed it recently but he seems to lean forward and lose balance too often and end up getting beat badly.

Going into next year, I'd like to see a FA or top 4 round draft pick that addressed the interior line... I like all those guys but would like to see some competition and depth added. I certainly don't want to see Studdard on the field! I feel great about our tackles: Winston, Brown, Butler, and Salaam if neccessary.

Brown, Winston, Butler, Myers, Briesel, Pitts, White, ?, ?, Salaam?

mussop
12-04-2008, 10:25 AM
I don't think Winston is inconsistant. As a less than elite pass blocking tackle, I think he just gets beat on occasion. However, I don't ever see him losing battles in the run game. And, for the most part, his pass blocking is good. I think Brown is easily the best LT we've ever had here. While he's certainly struggled with Harrison, Porter, and Freeney, he can do so many things well. He is excellent in space. I totally disagree with LZ (who I respect a great deal) that Brown is not a good run blocker. I think he's the best on the team, other than perhaps Butler, at making the backside cut blockson the second level.

On the interior line, I've always been less than impressed with Chester Pitts but have accepted that I must be wrong about him because of so many of those I respect saying he's been good for years. I think Myers is pretty good in pass blocking and getting to the second level on runs. However, it's hard not to see what can happen to him when he gets shoved on by a big guy- I was unable to see the Cleveland game so I missed him at his best. Briesel whiffs too often. I haven't noticed it recently but he seems to lean forward and lose balance too often and end up getting beat badly.

Going into next year, I'd like to see a FA or top 4 round draft pick that addressed the interior line... I like all those guys but would like to see some competition and depth added. I certainly don't want to see Studdard on the field! I feel great about our tackles: Winston, Brown, Butler, and Salaam if neccessary.

Brown, Winston, Butler, Myers, Briesel, Pitts, White, ?, ?, Salaam?some names for you to ponder.


Xavier Fulton, Illinois
Height: 6-6. Weight: 298.
Projected 40 Time: 4.95.
Projected Round (2009): 2-3.
5/24/08: For a guy coming off a season-ending knee injury, Xavier Fulton played pretty well in 2007. A former defensive lineman, Fulton's athleticism will make him a good fit in a zone-blocking scheme.

Augustus Parrish, Kent State
Height: 6-6. Weight: 308.
Projected 40 Time: 5.13.
Projected Round (2009): 4.
11/1/08: One of the more athletic linemen in the country, Augustus Parrish has vastly improved every year.

5/24/08: A quick offensive tackle and an effective run-blocker, Augustus Parrish is a two-year starter and a member of the All-MAC second team.

Troy Kropog, Tulane
Height: 6-6. Weight: 295.
Projected 40 Time: 4.86.
Projected Round (2009): 4-5.
5/24/08: A very athletic zone-blocking lineman who had a long streak of consecutive snaps going into the 2007 season.

Selvish Capers, West Virginia
Height: 6-6. Weight: 291.
Projected 40 Time: 4.92.
Projected Round (2009): 5-6.
11/1/08: Perfect for the zone-blocking scheme, Selvish Capers' athleticism will turn some heads at the Combine.

Ryan Stancheck, West Virginia
Height: 6-4. Weight: 301.
Projected 40 Time: 5.22.
Projected Round (2009): 6.
11/1/08: Ryan Stancheck has started 41 consecutive games - a very impressive feat.

5/24/08: A two-year starter who has all the fundamentals to be successful in the NFL.

Andrew Hartline, Central Michigan
Height: 6-5. Weight: 294.
Projected 40 Time: 5.08.
Projected Round (2009): 6.
11/1/08: The dependable Andrew Hartline has started 47 straight games.

5/24/08: Andrew Hartline had big shoes to fill with Joe Staley heading to the NFL. It's safe to say that he performed well, earning a spot on the All-MAC second team. Hartline, an athletic lineman, anchored a front that yielded just 16 sacks.

2007: Andrew Hartline, who was in the starting lineup every week in 2006, will be a perfect second- or third-round pick for any team using zone blocking.

Recently got kicked off team.

Ryan Delrosal, Dixie State
Height: 6-5. Weight: 313.
Projected 40 Time: 4.94.
Projected Round (2009): 7-FA.
5/24/08: I'm not going to bash the name of Ryan Delrosal's school. Mentioning 40s for linemen is useless, but a 4.94 at 313 pounds is just really impressive.


Jose Valdez, Arkansas -
Height: 6-5. Weight: 312. Projected 40 Time: 4.94. Projected Round (2009): FA.

beerlover
12-04-2008, 10:44 AM
some names for you to ponder.


Xavier Fulton, Illinois
Height: 6-6. Weight: 298.
Projected 40 Time: 4.95.
Projected Round (2009): 2-3.
5/24/08: For a guy coming off a season-ending knee injury, Xavier Fulton played pretty well in 2007. A former defensive lineman, Fulton's athleticism will make him a good fit in a zone-blocking scheme.

Augustus Parrish, Kent State
Height: 6-6. Weight: 308.
Projected 40 Time: 5.13.
Projected Round (2009): 4.
11/1/08: One of the more athletic linemen in the country, Augustus Parrish has vastly improved every year.

5/24/08: A quick offensive tackle and an effective run-blocker, Augustus Parrish is a two-year starter and a member of the All-MAC second team.

Troy Kropog, Tulane
Height: 6-6. Weight: 295.
Projected 40 Time: 4.86.
Projected Round (2009): 4-5.
5/24/08: A very athletic zone-blocking lineman who had a long streak of consecutive snaps going into the 2007 season.

Selvish Capers, West Virginia
Height: 6-6. Weight: 291.
Projected 40 Time: 4.92.
Projected Round (2009): 5-6.
11/1/08: Perfect for the zone-blocking scheme, Selvish Capers' athleticism will turn some heads at the Combine.

Ryan Stancheck, West Virginia
Height: 6-4. Weight: 301.
Projected 40 Time: 5.22.
Projected Round (2009): 6.
11/1/08: Ryan Stancheck has started 41 consecutive games - a very impressive feat.

5/24/08: A two-year starter who has all the fundamentals to be successful in the NFL.

Andrew Hartline, Central Michigan
Height: 6-5. Weight: 294.
Projected 40 Time: 5.08.
Projected Round (2009): 6.
11/1/08: The dependable Andrew Hartline has started 47 straight games.

5/24/08: Andrew Hartline had big shoes to fill with Joe Staley heading to the NFL. It's safe to say that he performed well, earning a spot on the All-MAC second team. Hartline, an athletic lineman, anchored a front that yielded just 16 sacks.

2007: Andrew Hartline, who was in the starting lineup every week in 2006, will be a perfect second- or third-round pick for any team using zone blocking.

Recently got kicked off team.

Ryan Delrosal, Dixie State
Height: 6-5. Weight: 313.
Projected 40 Time: 4.94.
Projected Round (2009): 7-FA.
5/24/08: I'm not going to bash the name of Ryan Delrosal's school. Mentioning 40s for linemen is useless, but a 4.94 at 313 pounds is just really impressive.


Jose Valdez, Arkansas -
Height: 6-5. Weight: 312. Projected 40 Time: 4.94. Projected Round (2009): FA.

this is heading towrds the draft forum, my apologizes but since you added so many good mid level prospects here is Antoine Caldwell bio- http://www.rolltide.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/caldwell_antoine00.html

back to the current Texans O line. Winston has settled in nicely, seals the edge & drives the second level better than anyone else. would like to see Slaton follow the right side more, seems like its primarily between Pitts & Brown so the Texans must feel they provide the biggest gaps on average depending on match-ups. one thing we have yet to see is the O line spread the field out more like they do in Denver, let them stand on their own island more then it would be easier to breakdown strengths/weakness & create better cutback lanes of a classic zbs. it seems to me its still a work in progress, not sure if the coaching staff is holding this process back because they lack the talent or skill level nessecary to execute?

Vinny
12-04-2008, 11:02 AM
I don't think Winston is inconsistant. As a less than elite pass blocking tackle, I think he just gets beat on occasion. However, I don't ever see him losing battles in the run game. And, for the most part, his pass blocking is good. I think Brown is easily the best LT we've ever had here. While he's certainly struggled with Harrison, Porter, and Freeney, he can do so many things well. He is excellent in space. I totally disagree with LZ (who I respect a great deal) that Brown is not a good run blocker. I think he's the best on the team, other than perhaps Butler, at making the backside cut blockson the second level.

On the interior line, I've always been less than impressed with Chester Pitts but have accepted that I must be wrong about him because of so many of those I respect saying he's been good for years. I think Myers is pretty good in pass blocking and getting to the second level on runs. However, it's hard not to see what can happen to him when he gets shoved on by a big guy- I was unable to see the Cleveland game so I missed him at his best. Briesel whiffs too often. I haven't noticed it recently but he seems to lean forward and lose balance too often and end up getting beat badly.

Going into next year, I'd like to see a FA or top 4 round draft pick that addressed the interior line... I like all those guys but would like to see some competition and depth added. I certainly don't want to see Studdard on the field! I feel great about our tackles: Winston, Brown, Butler, and Salaam if neccessary.

Brown, Winston, Butler, Myers, Briesel, Pitts, White, ?, ?, Salaam?
Winston IS inconsistent and has trouble getting a low pad level on leverage blocks and when he has to flow to the left...he gets beat a lot. I see lots of good stuff but he is very much inconstant and so long (tall) that he has trouble getting low leverage.

Myers is so bad in short yardage and in the red zone I'm just calling him oscar Myers....just a tube of baloney. He gets his lunch ate on a regular basis.

Brown our best run blocker? laughable...dude, you are in left field on this one. Pitts is easily our best run blocker. Brown gets pushed around way too easily....especially when he gets tired.

dalemurphy
12-04-2008, 02:37 PM
Brown our best run blocker? laughable...dude, you are in left field on this one. Pitts is easily our best run blocker. Brown gets pushed around way too easily....especially when he gets tired.



I said that he's the best on the back side at getting to the second level and chopping LBs. I also think he's very good pulling in space. There are a group of plays we run, often on 3rd and medium where a TE or WR seal down on the DE and Brown pulls wide. He's very good in those situations.

barrett
12-05-2008, 03:47 AM
Winston is inconsistent. I don't need to hear about how he's not elite. He's payed top 5 or top 10 money if i'm remembering correctly. And on certain plays he plays like he's payed. I expect in the next year or two for him to really come into his own as a VERY consistent player.

I don't see what you don't see about PItts. All I can figure is that you are stuck on his play earlier in his career. He seems awesome to me when i watch the line play.

Don't forget about Browns day against Jared Allen. That aside I think he's well on his way to being stellar. IF he pans out, Pitts continues to play as well as I think he is and Winston finds consistency then we're in really REALLY great shape on that line!

Goldensilence
12-05-2008, 10:09 AM
I think we'd be well served to use one of the top two picks on an interior lineman. I think Brisiel and Myers are pulling the line down and I'd like to see that pick have a more mean streak then our current guys.

CloakNNNdagger
12-05-2008, 10:59 AM
When a guard is weak, it compromises the side of the line on which he is playing. When a center is weak, it compromises both sides of the line. Getting a center who can hold his own has got to be the O-line priority.

barrett
12-05-2008, 01:30 PM
I would agree with that. If I had to pick between the two I'd want to replace Meyers. I don't know how much they think (the coaches) can correct with time though.

badboy
12-05-2008, 05:09 PM
You guys go back and read these posts. I keep seeing "technique" as issue not size. Even Myers at center is big enough for the ZBS. If it is techinique, that is a coaching issue. Maybe 12 weeks is not enough to teach basics, but maybe it should be?

Vinny
12-05-2008, 05:17 PM
You guys go back and read these posts. I keep seeing "technique" as issue not size. Even Myers at center is big enough for the ZBS. If it is techinique, that is a coaching issue. Maybe 12 weeks is not enough to teach basics, but maybe it should be?
hes kinda long and tall for a Center. He has a tough time with the squatty powerful DT's in the NFL with tons of lower body strength.

barrett
12-05-2008, 06:14 PM
You guys go back and read these posts. I keep seeing "technique" as issue not size. Even Myers at center is big enough for the ZBS. If it is techinique, that is a coaching issue. Maybe 12 weeks is not enough to teach basics, but maybe it should be?

ur nuts. have you not seen the improvement in the other 3 guys on the line? MASSIVE.

threetoedpete
12-07-2008, 06:07 AM
chris meyers has been competitive, played hard every down & works well in space. when the field compresses toward & in the red zone its easier for teams to dominate him @ the point of attack as Texans adjust/change to more conservative sets against loaded boxes & stunts plugging any gap through the middle, it would take someone massive to fend off those situations which is not indicitive of typical zbs players, thats on the coaching staff to spread out defenses & not deviate from their normal game plan.

same can be said for mike brisiel. both are young & working their butts off, lunch pale types with less than ideal athletic ability, who over achieve week after week. will the Texans feel the need to justify spending a high pick or big free agent signing to improve the inside? I hope so but you can bet its gonna be someone similar while improving things like hand punch, quick feet more powerful body mass & natural feel for zbs. right now its not killing the Texans to have them out there & considering what the Texans have invested they are both downright steals.

at the very least they will be with this team for along time if not starting providing capable back-up status which means Texans have some quality depth & probably become a winning franchise :)


Meyers is everything want in a center between the twenties. I like Criss White a lot when he came out. He's a very good combo blocker. Meyers hasn't gotten hurt to give the guy a chance. A lot of o-line is learning what the team mate is going to do in certain situations....you look close at the big run from the last game....Brisiel and Erick ended up cross blocking to open the lane. I garuntee you that play wan't drawn up that way. Just two guys getting use to each other. Just because White isn't starting doesn't mean he isn't any good. We'll find out the final verdict on him at the end of April. Don't misinterpret a coaches unwillingness to mess with chemistry with a guy on the bench's tallent. What we know for a fact about Criss White is at this point we don't know. He hasn't got a chance yet.

Big Lou
12-10-2008, 12:50 AM
THREAD HIJACK!!!!


What I want to see out of the OL is a little passion about thier QB. In the Green Bay game the Packers DL hit Schaub a little late although is was light contact, it was intentional and did put him on the ground.

I don't want penalties, but at least run over the the guy and threaten him with 10 lashings from a wet noodle or something. Tell the guy your gonna take his knee out if he does it again.

Jared Allen finaly got what he had coming!!!!!

Someone mentioned this after the Viking game, so credit to you for helping me notice.

LZ
12-11-2008, 12:04 AM
Your best bet is to listen to Lance Zierlein on 1560 in the mornings and read his blog on chron.com. His dad's the OL coach for Pitt, he has a ton of NFL connections, and is terribly knowledgeable about football.

From what I've gathered from him; Pitts has been surprisingly disappointing this season (though, keep in mind, this is relative to LZ's expectations that he quickly becomes the best OL under Gibbs' system,) Briesel is the most underrated lineman on the offense and has been very solid, Myers has been horrible aside from the Cleveland game, Brown is still very raw and could use a lot of improvement.

I don't think I'm qualified to analyze the play of the OL, but everything I've seen seem pretty congruous with LZ's takes.


Just to set the record straight, here are my thoughts after watching all of the games and breaking down the line in most of those games. Now keep in mind, that on pass protection, you have to know what protection was called to be able to understand which lineman had which responsibility and whether the RB or QB blew blitzer or rusher that was assigned to them.

D.Brown: Not as good in the run game as I expected. He plays a little stiffer than I expected and his technique still get sloppy in pass protection, but I promise you that many teams around the league would have no problems snatching him off the Texans roster because he has the physical skills that you want (I don't think he's overly gifted thought). If you are physically limited, then you have a much lower upside. His run blocking will get much more consistent next year if he loses 10 pounds. For the record, I think Brown is fine on the play side, but he is woefully inconsistent when he has to get to the second level on the backside. I would give him a "C".

C. Pitts: He's been better over the last four weeks in my opinion, but he does have a tendency to whiff on some backside blocks more than you would like. He could be better from a technical standpoint in the running game, but his pass protection has been better than last year. His grade would be a B-.

C. Myers: Keep in mind that my grades are relative to what I perceive their capabilities to be. Myers will always get pushed around by strong NTs. It is inevitable. However, he is has been pretty good in space lately and I thought he deserved a game ball in the Browns game the way he handled S. Rogers. To me, the Texans should look for an athletic guard and see about transitioning him to center in the future. I also think Winston could be a Pro Bowl caliber center if they ever wanted to move him. His grade would be a C to C-, but the grade is trending up lately.

M. Brisiel: His technique and footwork have been everything you could hope for from him. He is the better than Pitts at getting to the second level and taking care of LBs and most of the Texans big runs this season have come on the right side with Brisiel and Winston doing the work. I've read where people think he is limited athletically, but I think he is a very capable athlete in this scheme. He is having the best year of any lineman in my opinion and he's officially "that guy" who Gibbs and Benton have taken off the scrap heap and turned into a solid NFL player. Actually, I thought highly of him last year in his limited time with the Texans before Gibbs even got there. His grade is a B+.

E. Winston: His pass protection has been good for the most part all year and his run blocking is right there with Brisiel. Everyone knows he has great feet for a tackle and he's showing it each week. The thing I really like about Winston and Brisiel is that they win their battles in the running game or they stalemate. You will take wins and stalemates all day long. It's the "-" on the grade sheet that is the killer. When you lose your battle, the running play breaks down. If you win or even stalemate, the play can still be successful. Winston doesn't get many minuses when they grade they film, I promise you that. His grade is a "B".

infantrycak
12-11-2008, 12:44 AM
No point on saying "we agree" so:

D.Brown: His run blocking will get much more consistent next year if he loses 10 pounds.

This kind of stuff drives me insane. 10 pounds on a 330 lb man is 3%. The variety in fat v. muscle v. strength makes such comments meaningless. Sorry, but it is silly when draftniky people get obsessed with Emmitt Smith not being big or fast enough or a LT needing to have one inch longer wingspan. Strength and conditioning will benefit Brown--if that results in 10 lbs less fine, but it is silly to act like 10 lbs will hold him back.

I also think Winston could be a Pro Bowl caliber center if they ever wanted to move him.

Another example of the arm chair, position changing QB. Have you noticed Slaton's splits when they run to the right?

Goatcheese
12-11-2008, 12:56 AM
The thing I notice most about Winston is his reads, pre-snap, and at the snap. IMO that's his biggest problem.

Alot of the time he makes the wrong read, and his first step isn't right. That leads to him chasing the play, not being able to use proper technique, and playing toohigh.

It's a problem, but one that can be fixed easier than a player who just can't compete.

When he makes the correct read, it's very difficult to beat him.

nunusguy
12-11-2008, 09:03 AM
As one of the more knowledgeable local media authorities on player evaluations, LZs comments on our OLine are valuable IMO. But in the first sentence in his thoughts about Myers he says "Keep in mind that my grades are relative to what I perceive their capabilities to be.", which I take to mean that his grades are based as much on how much of a players potential
has been realized vs what the players ultimate potential or pure talent level may be ?
With that in mind, LZ is clearly most impressed with Brisiel in both his narrative comments and letter grade. According to him then, this is the mad genesis's crowning achievement on sculping a player with modest abilities
into an effective NFL OLineman in his ZBS. It also sounds like he thinks Briesel is a keeper, while his thoughts about Myers suggest that he thinks he's the most likely to be replaced.
And what he says about Brown reminds me of what BeerL said in another thread about Brown: the Texans like him and he's an NFL talent worthy of being a late first rounder, but he could be moved inside if the Texans got a shot in the Draft at a more talented prospect as their "franchise" LT.

threetoedpete
12-11-2008, 01:45 PM
As one of the more knowledgeable local media authorities on player evaluations, LZs comments on our OLine are valuable IMO. But in the first sentence in his thoughts about Myers he says "Keep in mind that my grades are relative to what I perceive their capabilities to be.", which I take to mean that his grades are based as much on how much of a players potential
has been realized vs what the players ultimate potential or pure talent level may be ?
With that in mind, LZ is clearly most impressed with Brisiel in both his narrative comments and letter grade. According to him then, this is the mad genesis's crowning achievement on sculping a player with modest abilities
into an effective NFL OLineman in his ZBS. It also sounds like he thinks Briesel is a keeper, while his thoughts about Myers suggest that he thinks he's the most likely to be replaced.
And what he says about Brown reminds me of what BeerL said in another thread about Brown: the Texans like him and he's an NFL talent worthy of being a late first rounder, but he could be moved inside if the Texans got a shot in the Draft at a more talented prospect as their "franchise" LT.

I'm no LZ Einstein but, Brown gives up the inside move and Erick gives up the outside to speed rushers because of his arm length. It's there on the tape. All you have to do is watch it. sorry Kac...that there thingy is called reality.



Well Kac, they were 0 of 29 on plays of more than eight yards on third down....all season. Came out of the mouth of Steve Tasker & Gus Johnson ? And since half the stuff coming out of thier mouths is wrong...who knows.
Slaton broke that streak with two great plays.

that's got to be fixed next year. That is one of the many unexceptible things they can't go into '09 with. As far as grading the o-line goes....they are second in the AFC in terms of yards. They suck at scroing when the feild compresses (was twenty first befor the GB game).

What I'm thinking is anything hand picked by Gibbs, Smith and Kubiak is going to be very hard to move out of there. Four great centers on the board in this class. We'll find out come april. there comes a point you quit monkeying with it. The guys either get it or they don't.

infantrycak
12-11-2008, 01:53 PM
I'm no LZ Einstein but, Brown gives up the inside move and Erick gives up the outside to speed rushers because of his arm length. It's there on the tape. All you have to do is watch it. sorry Kac...that there thingy is called reality.

If you can show me a tape of a play where one inch of arm length would make a difference, more power to you. Otherwise, I am calling BS. Actually, never mind--SHOW ME A PLAY WHERE ANY TACKLE IN THE NFL MANAGED TO DEFLECT A DE WITH ONE INCH OF THEIR FINGER. You have to get engaged to make the play. He, like every other T, has someone get a step on him or out muscle him, etc. It has zilch to do with an inch of arm length.

One inch more discussions are better had at the adult erotica store than in a discussion of NFL tackles.

Well Kac, they were 0 of 29 on plays of more than eight yards on third down....all season. Came out of the mouth of Steve Tasker & Gus Johnson ? And since half the stuff coming out of thier mouths is wrong...who knows.

Are you doing the initials backwards as some kind of insult thing? Anyway...

I haven't looked back through every game log but IMO they are full of it. Schaub and Sage have 9 passing 1st downs on 3rd and 8-10. It would be remarkable if all 9 of those were exactly 8 yards. Schaub also has 2 of 11+ and only one was in Green Bay.

dalemurphy
12-11-2008, 04:27 PM
As one of the more knowledgeable local media authorities on player evaluations, LZs comments on our OLine are valuable IMO. But in the first sentence in his thoughts about Myers he says "Keep in mind that my grades are relative to what I perceive their capabilities to be.", which I take to mean that his grades are based as much on how much of a players potential
has been realized vs what the players ultimate potential or pure talent level may be ?
With that in mind, LZ is clearly most impressed with Brisiel in both his narrative comments and letter grade. According to him then, this is the mad genesis's crowning achievement on sculping a player with modest abilities
into an effective NFL OLineman in his ZBS. It also sounds like he thinks Briesel is a keeper, while his thoughts about Myers suggest that he thinks he's the most likely to be replaced.
And what he says about Brown reminds me of what BeerL said in another thread about Brown: the Texans like him and he's an NFL talent worthy of being a late first rounder, but he could be moved inside if the Texans got a shot in the Draft at a more talented prospect as their "franchise" LT.

I also have a lot of respect for LZ.

That being said, I've been particularly impressed with Brown on the back side of running plays. Those assessments are specificly based on a 2nd DVR viewing. Furthermore, I can't comprehend giving Briesel the highest grade of the group, unless it's on some sort of curve. While he has certainly met or exceeded expectations, he is clearly one of the two weaker links moving forward. I have total confidence in Brown and Winston as a tackle tandom to rank among the best in the NFL, barring injury. I'd like to see some added competition in the interior line... I feel very good about the tackles with the inclusion of Butler, whom I believe in also.

76Texan
12-11-2008, 04:30 PM
It's so difficult to grade the linemen.

Do we take into account the defensive players, the scheme of the opposing team?
How do we use our linemen?

Consistently, D. Brown has to face great players, often one-on-one.
Not only the DEs but also the DTs and the LBs.
I mean, Haynesworth lined up at RDE at times as well in the last game we played the Tacks.
Then besides the big names players, there are also other good-very good players.

Like Montogomery is really having a solid year at RDE for GB for example.

Thirteen games, there's no weakling for him to face.
All you need to do is check to see how Salaam fared against the same guys.

I'll have to wait for the off-season to have time to really study all the plays.
Of the bunch, I believe Pitts has been most consistent this year.
(Heck he's supposed to be.)
Next would be Winston, but the grades might be reverse between those two.
Then further studies are needed to determine the other 3.
JMO, of course.

painekiller
12-11-2008, 04:33 PM
I'm no LZ Einstein but, Erick gives up the outside to speed rushers because of his arm length. It's there on the tape. All you have to do is watch it. sorry Kac...that there thingy is called reality.



I would say he gave up the outside to the speed rusher because as we saw at the Senior Bowl he has slow feet, 1/2" of arm had nothing to do with the slow feet.