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Grid
01-04-2005, 02:21 AM
"We're sitting here with a lot of weapons I don't think we took full advantage of," defensive end Gary Walker said. "It's disappointing and frustrating. It's even hard for me to talk about because I don't want to say anything to embarrass the organization. This is a proud organization.

It was disappointing to go out there (Sunday) and lose to a team that was 3-12 when you know you should have won the game and we didn't. That's a bad taste to keep in your mouth. It's harder to come to training camp. It's harder to go to the offseason workout programs when you've got a taste like that in your mouth. Nobody wants to end up like that."


on Carr being booed
Did he deserve it? Probably not, but that just goes with the territory when you play quarterback in the NFL. Fans in Dallas did the same thing to Troy Aikman when he was a developing quarterback, only to claim they believed in him all along when he started leading the Cowboys to Super Bowls.

"I'm as frustrated as every person in Houston," Carr said. "I'm going to try to do everything I can do to fix it and turn this thing around. I believe we can be in the playoffs next year. I believe we can compete against any team we play."


"I take it personally," said Walker, who had 6 1/2 sacks in 2002, but just a half-sack since. "I can rush the quarterback, but I have to be put in position to rush the quarterback.

"I think we have a great nucleus here. We just need to continue to add to that and keep our players here that are playing well. We lost (Steve) Foley and (Jeff) Posey and both of them are playing well for other teams.

"I guess they thought Foley wasn't good enough to play here, but he probably should have gone to the Pro Bowl for the Chargers in the same scheme (the 3-4). When you see things like that it's disappointing. I just hope we keep our players here and groom our players here and stop fishing and swimming for something."


Did Davis save his starting spot?
"If they think getting another back is going to help us win games, get him," Davis said. " ... I'm here to do whatever they need me to do. I'm not here to fuss about this or that. I'm here to play football and that's it."


Andre gets the ball thrown his way a lot more than you might think. He has been the intended receiver on 124 passes, good for fourth in the AFC and seventh in the NFL. The only receivers targeted more than Johnson are Laveranues Coles (144), Chad Johnson (138), Darrell Jackson (134), Joe Horn (129), Derrick Mason (125) and Eric Moulds (125). On average, the Redskins throw to Coles 11 times a game, so you're 15-20 range is way high. Also notice that Terrell Owens, arguably the best receiver in the league, doesn't even rank in the top seven. Sometimes, it’s not about how many opportunities you get, but what you do with them.



I wanted to quote more than this.. but im not a member on www.chron.com.. specifically I wanted more of the player qoutes.. like Wong chastising people for booing Carr when he came on the field.

But anyway.. I just wanted to point out that even the Texans players are saying the same things us "naysayers" are saying. So.. next time you want to call someone a bad fan because they arent happy about some glaring problem (you know who you are).. keep in mind that even the Texans players arent big enough homers to ignore their problems.

that being said, I find Walkers comments really interesting. Him and Sharper both have said things that can be taken in the context of "we have coaching problems"... but no one thinks things will change. Dom and his crew still have the benefit of the doubt.. next season may be a different story.

I also like his comment about us losing Posey and Foley. Posey I dont think we had any control over... but Foley..we should have kept him. He has been called "the best offseason acquisition" by some talking heads. I take Walkers comments about keeping players as a big "RESIGN ANTWAN PEEK" sign.

I would also like to give Carr a big pat on the back for being mature enough to take the boos and not let it sour him. Everyone still loves ya, even the guys booing. The boos were just the product of alot of frustration... anyone who actually blames Carr for sundays debacle, well.. their ignorance makes their opinion worthless.

Carr is a great QB. He has one of the best Arms in the league, pinpoint accuracy.. and a cool head under pressure(yes i said that). He is one of the best rushing QBs in the league.. he is just the total package. he is Micheal Vick with a little less speed and alot more of the necessary quarterback skills. Give the man a line and I garuntee he will become a probowl QB. I will bet money on that. When he has time in the pocket, he makes defenses pay.. every time. Ive heard people say he is gunshy and that just isnt the case. Gunshy QBs will cower.. they will fall down instead of getting sacked.. they will throw inaccurate passes when they are getting pressured.. Carr doesnt do that. The only thing Carr does is run.. which I can understand people getting tired of seeing him run instead of throwing it up and hoping Andre grabs it, but Running is the smarter thing to do and its not like he jumps the gun and runs the second that a rusher breaks the line of scrimmage.. when he has time to throw, he plants himself and plays awesome. When he doesnt have time to throw, he can STILL hurt you. its only when there is a total and constant breakdown in protection that the game gets away from him.. and I hardly blame him for that. get the man a line.


moving on. I love DDs attitude. This guy is a team player and if it is at all possible I would love to see him as our franchise RB. Here is hoping that we can get the zone blocking working right.


and that Andre johnson quote.. im not sure I understand. Does that mean Andre has had 124 balls thrown his way? or that he has been the intended target 124 times, but we have had to dump it off or Carr was sacked or something along those lines? Either way.. keep that in mind next time you want to say we arent trying to utilize our best offensive weapon. we ARE trying to, we just arent being successful.


most all of our problems can be traced back to the Oline. We need to fix this, and honestly I think this offseason we need to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to do so. Get that Oline working, then worry about the defense. Our defense wasnt terrible and it could be even better next year with Robinson, Babin, and Earl having more experience. Plus, with Peek getting play time we do alot better in the pass rush. I say, do whatever it takes to put together an Oline.. trade away the draft.. rework Walker's contract.. whatever it takes. If we had had a strong Oline this year, we would have made the playoffs.. id put money on that too. Fix the Oline.. then work on the defense.. we will NEVER be a complete team if we dont fix it, and soon.

Wolf
01-04-2005, 02:50 AM
i'd disagree about the defense, it was terrible..lack of pass rush and sacks hurt us. 3rd down conversation , we gave up too many 3rd and long to keep drives going. About Foley, I figure Walker needs to worry about his game. Where would we have put Foley... according to depth charts...Wong would have been benched for foley or Wong moved inside at Formans spot so foley could have been where he is at OLB with the chargers... I doubt he (Foley) gets the same results with us as he did with the chargers if he stayed... We dont' get the production out of the d-line as the chargers do. Maybe it is Fangio's scheme is what Walker is griping about and if that is the case, he has a point


Carr will be good..(or should)...I get frustrated is that he still locks onto one guy during the game..

I like DD's attitude, but we still need an upgrade.. He is solid but doesn't strike fear in a defense.. Teams let us keep feeding DD the ball in the passing game, because they know our one and only true playmaker is AJ. If LT kept getting the ball in the flat, Defenses would adjust to stop him. Double teams would stop on AJ and open up the field. With our team that doesn't happen. Also S.D. has an actual TE that is that threat (gates), we don't and the one that could be a threat can't block (up to the NFL level) well.

Grid
01-04-2005, 03:05 AM
if DD hadnt been injured and had played all season like he did the last few games.. teams would have been worried about him. better run blocking by the Oline would turn DD into a beast.

I hear what you are saying about Foley, but Ill take Walkers word on this one.. he is in the lockerroom.


As for our defense.. it WASNT THAT BAD. yah we struggled.. mostly early one when we had a bad SS that couldnt do coverage (brown) and a rookie CB still trying to get his feet under him (Robinson)

Once Robinson got comfortable, and we brought in Earl, and Peek started getting more playing time.. we were at least a mid level defense... definatly not deserving of our ranking at the bottom of the league. Heck.. we had the longest streak this year of holding teams without a TD.

Grid
01-04-2005, 03:49 AM
on getting booed) “I’d boo, too. From what we were putting on the field today, I was booing in the huddle. It was embarrassing. As the quarterback of the football team, that might lie on my shoulders, but that’s fine. What I’m more concerned about is fixing things inside the organization. I know I can speak for all the guys on my team that they put out as much effort as any team I’ve been around. We have to fix things in here first. The outside stuff is going to take care of itself. But we didn’t go out and do anything deserving of any praise.”

Well my respect for Carr just increased quite a bit.

Grid
01-04-2005, 04:01 AM
(Steve McKinney On if David Carr had an unusual amount of pressure on him today) “No, I know some guys were getting beat, but it’s going to happen like that. I don’t think that it was unusual.”

:shocked

Billy Miller On David Carr being booed) “It was crazy because one minute they’re booing him and the next minute, he makes a good run, and the crowd went crazy. I say, if you’re going to be a fan, then you have to stick with us. I thought it was very unfair.”

:listening Billy just doesnt get it.


(Dunta Robinson On having higher expectations for next season) “Next season 8-8 isn’t good enough. We’re not an expansion team anymore; now it’s time to play football and start competing with some of the top teams in the NFL.”

:thumbup

(Demarcus Faggins On success of season) “In my mind I feel like we got better since the last couple seasons. I feel like we will get better next year.”

(On close games) “There’s a couple of games this season that we should have taken away, but it didn’t happen. Going into the off-season we are going to work hard and we are going to make sure that the teams we are supposed to beat, we are going to beat. There are some great teams next year and we are going to come out and compete and win those games.”


Hope this means he will be resigning with us.

Dime
01-04-2005, 09:12 AM
[QUOTE=Grid]

Carr is a great QB. He has one of the best Arms in the league, pinpoint accuracy.. and a cool head under pressure(yes i said that). He is one of the best rushing QBs in the league.. he is just the total package. he is Micheal Vick with a little less speed and alot more of the necessary quarterback skills. Give the man a line and I garuntee he will become a probowl QB. I will bet money on that. When he has time in the pocket, he makes defenses pay.. every time. Ive heard people say he is gunshy and that just isnt the case. Gunshy QBs will cower.. they will fall down instead of getting sacked.. they will throw inaccurate passes when they are getting pressured.. Carr doesnt do that. The only thing Carr does is run.. which I can understand people getting tired of seeing him run instead of throwing it up and hoping Andre grabs it, but Running is the smarter thing to do and its not like he jumps the gun and runs the second that a rusher breaks the line of scrimmage.. when he has time to throw, he plants himself and plays awesome. When he doesnt have time to throw, he can STILL hurt you. its only when there is a total and constant breakdown in protection that the game gets away from him.. and I hardly blame him for that. get the man a line.
QUOTE]

I read this and I wonder which Carr you are talking about because you aint talking about Houston Texans David Carr. I agree a Oline will help him greatly, but cool head under pressure isnt true, how many times did he dump passes off or run out of bounds. I will give him credit that he doesnt often just lob it like some QB's of the league do, but that is a bad thing sometimes too. Pinpoint accuracy is laughable because he has quite the tendency to throw behind the reciever (look at 75% percent of his throws). Now can this be corrected, yes it can... But right now, his recievers are the ones who have to compensate for it now. He still does not have the 'touch' yet. Can he be better and a Pro Bowler... Oh yes he can. But he aint all that yet.

cuppacoffee
01-04-2005, 10:26 AM
Quote:
(Steve McKinney On if David Carr had an unusual amount of pressure on him today) “No, I know some guys were getting beat, but it’s going to happen like that. I don’t think that it was unusual.”

Is this guy serious? :hairpull: It may not be unusual for the Texan O line.


cac :coffee:

Wolf
01-04-2005, 10:48 AM
on the booing on out team, first thought is that I was ashamed.. Now that I have time to think about it. Our fans have been more than generous for 3 years and have shown lots of patence with this team. this is a team that after 3 years shouldn't have gotten beat by the browns like they did. Yes the browns are a poor NFL team at this moment, but we shouldn't have gotten manhandled on the offensive side of the ball like we did after all the browns defense isn't the '85 bears or even have a ray lewis on that D.

the problem with the quotes is that I can't see the expressions on their faces or the whole conversation leading to the quotes(yes sometimes quotes are misleading)... BUT with that said... Only one I see taking responsibility with this horrible team effort is Carr.that is a shame. It is the same attitude that we have seen with this team all year. Everybody talks about this needing to be done or that needs to be done, but not one person has stepped up and took things on their shoulders and motivated the players ON the field.. Maybe a Ray lewis mentality(on the field) is what we need. and as much as I dislike T.O. or Keyshawn Johnson... They will speak up DURING a game to fire the team up (if TO could leave out the Rah Rah stuff and off the field blabla)..As we mentioned throughout the season, we seem to go through the motions.

*edit*
Better yet, we need a firey LEADER on the field

Grid
01-04-2005, 11:36 AM
I dunno what games you have been watching Dime but ive only seen Carr overthrow a few passes. For the most part he puts it right where it needs to be. And when he DOES overthrow, 90% of the time its just barely. If anything.. you could argue that the pinpoint accuracy is laughable because of how many times he has bounced it off a linemans head. That, im hoping is either a shoulder injury problem.. or a sidearm throwing problem that they intend to fix. Either way, it doesnt diminish the fact that he is a great QB who just needs some protection.

And yes he does have a cool head under pressure.. he doesnt panic, he just does what is necessary, which just happens seems to be running out of bounds, or dumping it off alot of the time.. What would you consider a better idea? stepping up into the pocket and getting slaughtered? throwing on the run? :P.. bottom line is he is getting hammered and still manages to keep his cool and not get gunshy. You dont see him get flustered when he gets flushed out of the pocket.. he knows what he is doing.. and he may not have pulled alot of Donovan Mcnabb style throws while running.. but that doesnt mean he isnt cool headed.. just that not everyone can do that :P.

Grid
01-04-2005, 11:38 AM
Antwan Peek seems to be full of fire.. maybe if he wins the starting position we will get our Ray Lewis motivator on the field.

aj.
01-04-2005, 11:44 AM
Quote:
(Steve McKinney On if David Carr had an unusual amount of pressure on him today) “No, I know some guys were getting beat, but it’s going to happen like that. I don’t think that it was unusual.”

Is this guy serious? :hairpull: It may not be unusual for the Texan O line.

cac :coffee:

If you liked that one, here's two more from McKinney from his morning show:

1. "We're among the top 10 offensive lines in the NFL"

2. "There's one or two guys that play on the Colts OL who couldn't start for us."

No context required. He was on his soapbox and was dead serious.

The Wal-Mart
01-04-2005, 12:01 PM
David Carr isn't even in Michael Vick's league. That comparison is just way off. Vick sets his team up to win and single-handedly makes plays when things go wrong, he's a playmaker and the focal point of opposing defenses. I think Vick's arm is even a little stronger than Carr's. Carr is a pocket passer more comparable to Aikman than anyone else. Nothing wrong with that. He can be just as successful, only time will tell (next season hopefully). His rushing yards are a result of trying to salvage a busted play or running for dear life. But until Carr leads us to the playoffs or runs for 500+ yards he's no Vick or even similar to Vick.

FILO_girl
01-04-2005, 12:04 PM
If you liked that one, here's two more from McKinney from his morning show:

1. "We're among the top 10 offensive lines in the NFL"

2. "There's one or two guys that play on the Colts OL who couldn't start for us."

No context required. He was on his soapbox and was dead serious.

Isn't there a 7sec delay on the radio? Someone needs to be there to BLEEP some of these Einstein comments. :loser Good lord!! :listening

edo783
01-04-2005, 12:09 PM
I wanted to quote more than this.. but im not a member on www.chron.com.. specifically I wanted more of the player qoutes.. like Wong chastising people for booing Carr when he came on the field.

But anyway.. I just wanted to point out that even the Texans players are saying the same things us "naysayers" are saying. So.. next time you want to call someone a bad fan because they arent happy about some glaring problem (you know who you are).. keep in mind that even the Texans players arent big enough homers to ignore their problems.

that being said, I find Walkers comments really interesting. Him and Sharper both have said things that can be taken in the context of "we have coaching problems"... but no one thinks things will change. Dom and his crew still have the benefit of the doubt.. next season may be a different story.

I also like his comment about us losing Posey and Foley. Posey I dont think we had any control over... but Foley..we should have kept him. He has been called "the best offseason acquisition" by some talking heads. I take Walkers comments about keeping players as a big "RESIGN ANTWAN PEEK" sign.

I would also like to give Carr a big pat on the back for being mature enough to take the boos and not let it sour him. Everyone still loves ya, even the guys booing. The boos were just the product of alot of frustration... anyone who actually blames Carr for sundays debacle, well.. their ignorance makes their opinion worthless.

Carr is a great QB. He has one of the best Arms in the league, pinpoint accuracy.. and a cool head under pressure(yes i said that). He is one of the best rushing QBs in the league.. he is just the total package. he is Micheal Vick with a little less speed and alot more of the necessary quarterback skills. Give the man a line and I garuntee he will become a probowl QB. I will bet money on that. When he has time in the pocket, he makes defenses pay.. every time. Ive heard people say he is gunshy and that just isnt the case. Gunshy QBs will cower.. they will fall down instead of getting sacked.. they will throw inaccurate passes when they are getting pressured.. Carr doesnt do that. The only thing Carr does is run.. which I can understand people getting tired of seeing him run instead of throwing it up and hoping Andre grabs it, but Running is the smarter thing to do and its not like he jumps the gun and runs the second that a rusher breaks the line of scrimmage.. when he has time to throw, he plants himself and plays awesome. When he doesnt have time to throw, he can STILL hurt you. its only when there is a total and constant breakdown in protection that the game gets away from him.. and I hardly blame him for that. get the man a line.


moving on. I love DDs attitude. This guy is a team player and if it is at all possible I would love to see him as our franchise RB. Here is hoping that we can get the zone blocking working right.


and that Andre johnson quote.. im not sure I understand. Does that mean Andre has had 124 balls thrown his way? or that he has been the intended target 124 times, but we have had to dump it off or Carr was sacked or something along those lines? Either way.. keep that in mind next time you want to say we arent trying to utilize our best offensive weapon. we ARE trying to, we just arent being successful.


most all of our problems can be traced back to the Oline. We need to fix this, and honestly I think this offseason we need to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to do so. Get that Oline working, then worry about the defense. Our defense wasnt terrible and it could be even better next year with Robinson, Babin, and Earl having more experience. Plus, with Peek getting play time we do alot better in the pass rush. I say, do whatever it takes to put together an Oline.. trade away the draft.. rework Walker's contract.. whatever it takes. If we had had a strong Oline this year, we would have made the playoffs.. id put money on that too. Fix the Oline.. then work on the defense.. we will NEVER be a complete team if we dont fix it, and soon.

Good post Grid. Not a Rah, Rah one nor a doom and gloom fire everyone and start over type of rant/post. Well thought out and very reasoned. This team has potential and it has problems. How we handle each will determin our destiny and IMO we will do well because the SENIOR management (not Dom) are of a superior quality and won't let us fail. Are we on track....Probably. As much (as little?) as I think of our game planning/philosophy, to change now would be a 2 year setback at least. 05 will be an interesting year and a lot of jobs will be riding on it.

FILO_girl
01-04-2005, 12:10 PM
on the booing on out team, first thought is that I was ashamed.. Now that I have time to think about it. Our fans have been more than generous for 3 years and have shown lots of patence with this team. this is a team that after 3 years shouldn't have gotten beat by the browns like they did. Yes the browns are a poor NFL team at this moment, but we shouldn't have gotten manhandled on the offensive side of the ball like we did after all the browns defense isn't the '85 bears or even have a ray lewis on that D.

the problem with the quotes is that I can't see the expressions on their faces or the whole conversation leading to the quotes(yes sometimes quotes are misleading)... BUT with that said... Only one I see taking responsibility with this horrible team effort is Carr.that is a shame. It is the same attitude that we have seen with this team all year. Everybody talks about this needing to be done or that needs to be done, but not one person has stepped up and took things on their shoulders and motivated the players ON the field.. Maybe a Ray lewis mentality(on the field) is what we need. and as much as I dislike T.O. or Keyshawn Johnson... They will speak up DURING a game to fire the team up (if TO could leave out the Rah Rah stuff and off the field blabla)..As we mentioned throughout the season, we seem to go through the motions.

*edit*
Better yet, we need a firey LEADER on the field

The bold type is right. I totally agree!!!! Walker running the pie hole on the boob tube with the "wasn't me, I ain't responsible" mentality is exactly what we DO NOT need. Team players find the problem, take ownership and look for a resolution. I see Carr trying to do that. So far, haven't heard anyone else stepping up. :listening

NeViKaN
01-04-2005, 12:20 PM
GRID

Just wanted to say that I totaly agree with your opening monolog.

I will say that Miller has a point. Thanks for the quotes. :hmmm:

coachdent
01-04-2005, 12:26 PM
I think Dom Capers has done a fine job in putting together a solid expansion franchise together. However, after year three, there needs to be dynamic changes with the Texans for us to be a great team. Every fan dreams of a Super Bowl and I'm no different. However, the rhetoric that I hear coming from Capers in defense of the offensive philosophy is not one that has Super Bowl aspirations in mind.

Cleveland served as a perfect example of the wayward offensive philosophy. The Browns are a horrible football team, but even on the best of days, the Texan offense will keep a game close. How many weeks have we watched games being decided by 5 points either way? GREAT teams do not become great by eeking out nailbiters week after week. Without a high-powered attacking offense, we are forever going to be mired with 8-8 seasons. The NFL is too even to play the game this way.

With the new rules, passing the football is definitely the route that people need to go. Controlled passing, high percentage passing... much like that Carr did in college. The numbers on Andre Johnson being the 7th most thrown to receiver in the NFL are bogus. It is the ROUTES he is running! Throwing 5 jump balls to Andre is not successful football and it is not the way you try to ge the ball to him. This offense runs 75% of its plays through DD. They have no trouble getting him involved in the game. Yet we go entire games with nothing to #80.

Scrap the I formation. Please. We have no fullback and the fullback as we know it in the NFL is dead and gone. Get out of the dark ages. This also causes more problems from a zone running perspective because it bastar*izes the zone. Those interetested in the x's & o's of this can feel free to contact me.

We need to attack people offensively and defensively if we want to rise up the ladder. We can't just "hang around" in games and "be close" in the fourth quarter. Put some exclamation points on this team!

SteelBlueToro
01-04-2005, 12:32 PM
I think Steve McKinney has lost his mind... :crazy:

Grid
01-04-2005, 12:34 PM
Thanks Nevikan, Edo.


Vick: 321 Attempts
181 Completions (56.4%)
2313 Yards (ave 7.21 per attempt)
14 TDs
12 Ints
902 Rushing yards
120 Rushing Attempts(7.5 per attempt)
QB Rating: 78.1

Carr 466 Attempts
285 Completions (61.2%)
3531 yards (7.58 per attempt)
16 TDs
14 Ints
299 Rushing Yards
73 Attempts (4.1 per attempt)
QB Rating: 83.5

2313 + 902 = 3215

3531 + 299 = 3830


SO.. Carr has more yards passing.. more completions.. more TDs.. a higher completion rating.. better QB rating etc..etc..etc..

You wanna know what the BIGGEST difference between Vick and Carr is? the Oline. Vick's Oline actually works. And ya wanna know why they are going to the playoffs? its not cause of Vick.. hes been AVERAGE.. its because they have a dominating and consistent defense.


So anyway. The stats show that im right.. Carr is the better QB.. Vick is the better scrambler.



here are the quotes after the game.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=1483

alot of the other Texan's players were pretty down on themselves too.

Hervoyel
01-04-2005, 12:42 PM
McKinney has lost his mind. He doesn't see what's right in front of his face (and often he doesn't block it either).

wags
01-04-2005, 12:48 PM
If you liked that one, here's two more from McKinney from his morning show:

1. "We're among the top 10 offensive lines in the NFL"

2. "There's one or two guys that play on the Colts OL who couldn't start for us."

No context required. He was on his soapbox and was dead serious.

If that's what Steve believes, then they are the #1 underachieving unit in the league. Congrats Steve, you are the centerpiece in the most underachieving line in the league. :loser

Double Barrel
01-04-2005, 12:53 PM
Thanks Nevikan, Edo.


Vick: 321 Attempts
181 Completions (56.4%)
2313 Yards (ave 7.21 per attempt)
14 TDs
12 Ints
902 Rushing yards
120 Rushing Attempts(7.5 per attempt)
QB Rating: 78.1

Carr 466 Attempts
285 Completions (61.2%)
3531 yards (7.58 per attempt)
16 TDs
14 Ints
299 Rushing Yards
73 Attempts (4.1 per attempt)
QB Rating: 83.5

2313 + 902 = 3215

3531 + 299 = 3830


SO.. Carr has more yards passing.. more completions.. more TDs.. a higher completion rating.. better QB rating etc..etc..etc..

You wanna know what the BIGGEST difference between Vick and Carr is? the Oline. Vick's Oline actually works. And ya wanna know why they are going to the playoffs? its not cause of Vick.. hes been AVERAGE.. its because they have a dominating and consistent defense.


So anyway. The stats show that im right.. Carr is the better QB.. Vick is the better scrambler.



here are the quotes after the game.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=1483

alot of the other Texan's players were pretty down on themselves too.

Excellent post (and thread, too)! :thumbup I was just getting ready to research those stats.

The only thing I disagree with you about wholeheartedly is the booing of Carr. He didn't deserve it. I agree with B. Miller 100% on that one.

Marcus
01-04-2005, 12:56 PM
If you liked that one, here's two more from McKinney from his morning show:

1. "We're among the top 10 offensive lines in the NFL"

2. "There's one or two guys that play on the Colts OL who couldn't start for us."

No context required. He was on his soapbox and was dead serious.

Man, I would have loved to have seen the look on Carr's face if he was listening to the radio at that time. I know that if I'd had been listening to the radio at the time, I would have yanked the phone off the wall to call in, and they would have used that 7-second button a lot.

That ****ing pisses me off that he had the audacity to say something like that.

Grid
01-04-2005, 01:03 PM
I disagree with booing Carr.. Carr himself didnt deserve it. I dont disagree with booing the team.

Billy doesnt understand that the fans ARE sticking with the team, Booing the team on Sunday was not the fans turning their backs on the Texans.. if they had turned their backs they simply would have left and not bothered to boo. They were booing cause they were disappointed and knew that the Texans were a better team than that. Carr specifically got booed because he is the face of the team. Carr understands that.


BTW.. the whole McKinney thing.. its all part of their new blocking scheme.. they have been training with Buddist monks.. its all about pacifism baby. They figure if they just let the rushers get by.. they will wear themselves out chasing Carr.. or hurt themselves tackling him. Once they are all sacked out and tired in the second half, we were supposed to come back on them.

honestly.. how can anyone say "we are a top 10 Oline" and "Carr had no more pressure than normal"... HE WAS SACKED SIX TIMES!!! Well.. when we cut McKinney, he at least has a promising future as Saddam Husseins chief advisor. "The Americans are not in Baghdad"

MojoX
01-04-2005, 01:34 PM
Grid, excellent topic and great way to start it. I agree completely. Walker and Sharper have both taken their shots at the coaching. And Walker is on point to boldly deman management keep the talent here and not let it go away. Screw Wong's feelings. If Foley or Peek or Anderson or Orr make better ROLBs than Wong, then so be it. Kailee will just have to suck it uo, move to MLB or get benched or moved off the roster. Faggins shouldn't even get close enough to free agency to smell it. Lock him up before the Super Bowl is close.

Re: AJ -- I used to follow the Vikings really closely and when Moss was first drafted, he did little more than run a couple deep routes on every play. Eventually defenses started defending him a little better and Vikings fans were upset. The coaches were having Moss learn the other WR positions so that they could move him around more easily. But they couldn't just motion him like crazy until he learned his craft better. My point: I wonder if the Texans coaches have been teaching AJ how to run out of the slot and how to better run the crossing and underneath patterns? Because they can't keep with this unimaginative "line him up on the left side" ****. If AJ isn't in motion and being more creatively used next season, then I'm joing the Boo chorus line. It is better to let our speedy WRs catch a 5-10 yard pass and run 30 yards than try to complete a 40 yard pass for every big gain.

Texan Gal 312
01-04-2005, 01:37 PM
On Foley -
I don't recall anyone being upset when he left last year, were they ? Did anybody see him being the best offseason acquistion ?

Grid - thanks for the Vick stats. I knew it was wrong when I read the post about Vick having a better arm than Carr.
Vick's lackluster passing may give Vince Young a chance in the NFL.

WWJD
01-04-2005, 02:34 PM
While I think Steve McKinney overstated by a mile the line's ability I have to admit that I've never heard one single pro player in any sport being interviewed that said "you know I am not all that great and neither are my teammates". Of course he's going to talk them up and he's probably sincere. I imagine he feels he does a good job.

He's sort of one of the media boys of the Texans anyway. He has a radio show and he's also on one of the local channels after every game. I don't really watch the O line play much but the Texans certainly have issues there. The sacks this year are up from last year when I believe it was thought the O line was improving. I guess the general consensus now is they've regressed some this year.

Double Barrel
01-04-2005, 03:03 PM
I disagree with booing Carr.. Carr himself didnt deserve it. I dont disagree with booing the team.

Billy doesnt understand that the fans ARE sticking with the team, Booing the team on Sunday was not the fans turning their backs on the Texans.. if they had turned their backs they simply would have left and not bothered to boo. They were booing cause they were disappointed and knew that the Texans were a better team than that. Carr specifically got booed because he is the face of the team. Carr understands that.

That's cool. I must have misunderstood you the first time around, but I see where you are coming from.

But people were showing their discontent by leaving early, too. Beginning of the fourth saw a mass exodus towards the exits. I kept hoping for a "miracle" comeback (miracle because the team's attitude would have had to suddenly do a 180 degree turnaround) so all those that left would regret their decision. But no such luck. :(

I'm not sure who, specifically, deserved the boos, especially since the entire team came out flat. There was not an individual player that should be singled out, as the team flatlined and looked like they could care less to even be there, much less try to beat a 3-12 team.

It's going to be a long, long offseason after that sorry game.

htown_julie
01-04-2005, 03:25 PM
Steve McKinney and his pie hole.... HAHHAHAHAHAHA.... maybe his head has gotten beat one too many times..

htown_julie
01-04-2005, 03:28 PM
if that is the results for this year's Quarterbacks.. i think you guys left out the fact was that a couple of games Michael Vick didnt even play.. and basically every game Carr played.... that should add extra points to him... Michael Vick is PHENOMENAL!!!

SteelBlueToro
01-04-2005, 03:31 PM
When is McKinney's contract up? That's one we don't have to re-sign. :BananaWav

The Wal-Mart
01-04-2005, 03:59 PM
Thanks Nevikan, Edo.


Vick: 321 Attempts
181 Completions (56.4%)
2313 Yards (ave 7.21 per attempt)
14 TDs
12 Ints
902 Rushing yards
120 Rushing Attempts(7.5 per attempt)
QB Rating: 78.1

Carr 466 Attempts
285 Completions (61.2%)
3531 yards (7.58 per attempt)
16 TDs
14 Ints
299 Rushing Yards
73 Attempts (4.1 per attempt)
QB Rating: 83.5

2313 + 902 = 3215

3531 + 299 = 3830


SO.. Carr has more yards passing.. more completions.. more TDs.. a higher completion rating.. better QB rating etc..etc..etc..

You wanna know what the BIGGEST difference between Vick and Carr is? the Oline. Vick's Oline actually works. And ya wanna know why they are going to the playoffs? its not cause of Vick.. hes been AVERAGE.. its because they have a dominating and consistent defense.


So anyway. The stats show that im right.. Carr is the better QB.. Vick is the better scrambler.



here are the quotes after the game.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=1483

alot of the other Texan's players were pretty down on themselves too.

I'm sorry I have no problems with your other comments but this one is just irritating me. To compare David Carr to Michael Vick and then state Carr is the better Qb and Vick is just a scrambler is either complete lunacy or downright homerism. If we're going by paper, both Billy Volek and Brian Griese had better seasons than Vick and Carr. Testaverde and K Collins had near similar numbers in passing yards. Does that mean they're more important to their teams or better qb's, ofcourse not. That's why stats are so deceiving, they don't measure a player's intangibles. Vick's worth is probably more valuable than the coach. When he plays, the Falcons chances of winning go way up, when the line breaks he makes something out of nothing, and if I'm not mistaken he's learning a new offense this season with a new coach coming off a serious injury. I also don't think 2300 passing yards and 900 rushing are average numbers for a QB. The defense has been good but they're not Baltimore, you can't throw Trent Dilfer in there and expect playoffs. I'm a big Carr fan and supporter, have been since Dallas vs. Houston year 1. But I also see what he can and cannot do. He's at his best when in the pocket or rolling to his right and scrambles when forced. Granted we don't get to see much of this due to line problems it's still too early to say Carr is the complete package and second coming of Vick.

Double Barrel
01-04-2005, 04:26 PM
Well, we'll see what Vick is all about as a QUARTERBACK when he's in his 30's and his legs don't have the gas in them that they do now.

Wait until he's taken a few good Ray Lewis hits and can't run.

Then we'll see how great that arm of his is and what kind of pure QB he becomes. He's already said that it'll probably take him at least 10 years to learn the west coast offense, so it will be interesting to see what he's about when his RB-style is not available and he has to rely on all the QB wits he should be developing NOW instead of racking up rushing records.

I'm not hating on him, as I enjoy watching him play. But I'm not blind, either, and I neither believe that he represents the "new" QB style in the NFL (afterall, there is only ONE Vick, right), nor do I think he's the second coming of Jesus.

And I wonder how great he would be behind the sorry O-line that Carr has been cursed with this year.

SESupergenius
01-04-2005, 04:29 PM
I for one like the idea of us re-signed Foley last year. I thought he play pretty good for us when he was in and looked forward to him eventually challenging Foreman. WE would have had Wong, Sharper, Foley, and Peek starting this year with Foreman and Polk as backups. That's not a bad lineup and instead of Babin (who I do like) we could have had a decent DL drafted last year. This is all hindsight but that scenario was very much in the works before Foley wasn't resigned and we drafted Babin.

Porky
01-04-2005, 05:50 PM
I think Dom Capers has done a fine job in putting together a solid expansion franchise together. However, after year three, there needs to be dynamic changes with the Texans for us to be a great team. Every fan dreams of a Super Bowl and I'm no different. However, the rhetoric that I hear coming from Capers in defense of the offensive philosophy is not one that has Super Bowl aspirations in mind.

Cleveland served as a perfect example of the wayward offensive philosophy. The Browns are a horrible football team, but even on the best of days, the Texan offense will keep a game close. How many weeks have we watched games being decided by 5 points either way? GREAT teams do not become great by eeking out nailbiters week after week. Without a high-powered attacking offense, we are forever going to be mired with 8-8 seasons. The NFL is too even to play the game this way.

With the new rules, passing the football is definitely the route that people need to go. Controlled passing, high percentage passing... much like that Carr did in college. The numbers on Andre Johnson being the 7th most thrown to receiver in the NFL are bogus. It is the ROUTES he is running! Throwing 5 jump balls to Andre is not successful football and it is not the way you try to ge the ball to him. This offense runs 75% of its plays through DD. They have no trouble getting him involved in the game. Yet we go entire games with nothing to #80.

Scrap the I formation. Please. We have no fullback and the fullback as we know it in the NFL is dead and gone. Get out of the dark ages. This also causes more problems from a zone running perspective because it bastar*izes the zone. Those interetested in the x's & o's of this can feel free to contact me.

We need to attack people offensively and defensively if we want to rise up the ladder. We can't just "hang around" in games and "be close" in the fourth quarter. Put some exclamation points on this team!


I agree with virtually all of that, although I will admit I don't understand the nuances of Zone blocking as well as you aappear too. Good post!

I heard Steve Mckinney this morning claim his line was top 10 material. If I would have been eating my Wheaties, I would have choked to death. I think Steve needs to retire and go shoot some more defenseless animals to put over his fireplace, and let's get a real center in here. Instead of arguing with the ref's he could bag a Zebra. That takes a real man.

TexansTrueFan
01-04-2005, 06:04 PM
I'm sorry I have no problems with your other comments but this one is just irritating me. To compare David Carr to Michael Vick and then state Carr is the better Qb and Vick is just a scrambler is either complete lunacy or downright homerism. If we're going by paper, both Billy Volek and Brian Griese had better seasons than Vick and Carr. Testaverde and K Collins had near similar numbers in passing yards. Does that mean they're more important to their teams or better qb's, ofcourse not. That's why stats are so deceiving, they don't measure a player's intangibles. Vick's worth is probably more valuable than the coach. When he plays, the Falcons chances of winning go way up, when the line breaks he makes something out of nothing, and if I'm not mistaken he's learning a new offense this season with a new coach coming off a serious injury. I also don't think 2300 passing yards and 900 rushing are average numbers for a QB. The defense has been good but they're not Baltimore, you can't throw Trent Dilfer in there and expect playoffs. I'm a big Carr fan and supporter, have been since Dallas vs. Houston year 1. But I also see what he can and cannot do. He's at his best when in the pocket or rolling to his right and scrambles when forced. Granted we don't get to see much of this due to line problems it's still too early to say Carr is the complete package and second coming of Vick.


haha vick miswell become a running back, i dont see how you can say he is the better quarterback ??? Isnt a QBs job to throw the ball and HAND off to the running backs, if we are talking about SCRAMBLERS than vick is better !!!! If we talk about QBs and passing than Carr is the better QB ! Which he is.

big sarge
01-04-2005, 07:01 PM
Hey Grid the biggest difference between Carr and Vick is that Carr will have to buy tickets to get in the playoffs this year and Vick is in them. To me stats don't matter. QB's don't win games teams do. What seems to me is that they don't have the want to's. They may want to win, but they don't take ownership/responsibility for their mistakes, and if you want to succeed you must frist fail, and I think that is because you appreciate success more if it takes you a couple of times to acheive your ultimate goal.I mean look at Marino, the only thing people remembered him for was the TD passing SINGLE season record, and the passing yards. How many SB rings does he have......but wait there's more now Manning has the record, and I'm pretty sure that his yards will be surpassed also. Records and statistics are like rules they are made to be broken or surpassed, but they can never take away the FACT that your TEAM won the SB. Maybe Carr is the better of the 2, and I am a big supporter of Carr, but what will people say if the Falcons win the Super Bowl? Will they say hey the Falcons put together a good year and they utilized every aspect of their team? Or will they say man I don't see how the Falcons won the Super Bowl with a QB that doesn't even have as good of stat's as a 3 year QB on a 7-9 team? I know you were just trying to state your point, but the fact of the matter is David Carr is at home licking his wounds whilee Michael Vick is doing what Good QB's do, and that playing in the playoffs. Make no mistake about this, I think Carr is the answer at QB for the Texans, but I just think that the freakin o-line forgot the damn question.

God!
Family!
Country!
Texans!

aj.
01-04-2005, 07:52 PM
When is McKinney's contract up? That's one we don't have to re-sign. :BananaWav2006 but I sense a cap friendly restructure as early as this coming season. His cap number is in the 4 million area so that's a problem. Steve seems to be very much settled here and I think he will be easy to negotiate with when the time comes.

utahmark
01-04-2005, 08:31 PM
David Carr isn't even in Michael Vick's league. That comparison is just way off. Vick sets his team up to win and single-handedly makes plays when things go wrong, he's a playmaker and the focal point of opposing defenses. I think Vick's arm is even a little stronger than Carr's. Carr is a pocket passer more comparable to Aikman than anyone else. Nothing wrong with that. He can be just as successful, only time will tell (next season hopefully). His rushing yards are a result of trying to salvage a busted play or running for dear life. But until Carr leads us to the playoffs or runs for 500+ yards he's no Vick or even similar to Vick.


xx x att comp pct yards ypa td int rate
vick 321 181 56.4 2313 7.21 14 12 78.1

carr 466 285 61.2 3531 6.75 16 14 83.5

vick has been in the league a year longer and is playing behind a better offensive line. they have won a lot of games this year but its mainly been the defense. vick is not yet the superstar quarterback everyone thinks he is. if it wasnt for his running ability he would be very ave.

The Wal-Mart
01-04-2005, 09:22 PM
xx x att comp pct yards ypa td int rate
vick 321 181 56.4 2313 7.21 14 12 78.1

carr 466 285 61.2 3531 6.75 16 14 83.5

vick has been in the league a year longer and is playing behind a better offensive line. they have won a lot of games this year but its mainly been the defense. vick is not yet the superstar quarterback everyone thinks he is. if it wasnt for his running ability he would be very ave.

Yes, I've already seen the stats and responded to them. I don't want to turn this into a Carr bashing thread because I'm not a Carr basher. I like the guy and very much want him to succeed with the Texans. I was simply replying to the original statement that implied Carr can do all the things Vick can do, and that simply isn't true. Comparing Carr to Vick is like comparing apples to oranges. They both have different styles of play suited to their respective abilities. You're right, if Vick didn't have that athletic ability he would be average. But he does. Same thing goes for all the people that say Carr can do all these wonderful things if he only had a line. But he doesn't. You can only speculate. Vick has already proven himself to be a double threat, explosive player, and major contributor to his team. He does win games and the D holds their own. I think Carr can be a very special player in the near future, but as of now NO he's not as good as Vick.

Marcus
01-04-2005, 10:05 PM
I heard Steve Mckinney this morning claim his line was top 10 material. If I would have been eating my Wheaties, I would have choked to death. I think Steve needs to retire and go shoot some more defenseless animals to put over his fireplace, and let's get a real center in here. Instead of arguing with the ref's he could bag a Zebra. That takes a real man.

McKinney should be fined by league for hiding his obvious head injury. :rolleyes: He's in such a state of denial, I can't see him even trying to improve himself during the offseason. I wish they would just cut him, and screw the cap hit.

And I want Casserly to take a center with the 2nd pick. Send a message to that imbecile.

infantrycak
01-04-2005, 11:07 PM
I for one like the idea of us re-signed Foley last year. I thought he play pretty good for us when he was in and looked forward to him eventually challenging Foreman. WE would have had Wong, Sharper, Foley, and Peek starting this year with Foreman and Polk as backups. That's not a bad lineup and instead of Babin (who I do like) we could have had a decent DL drafted last year. This is all hindsight but that scenario was very much in the works before Foley wasn't resigned and we drafted Babin.

We were and are in agreement on this one. I wanted a replacement for Foreman last year. Of course Foley is getting all this glory at OLB in SD but I see no reason he couldn't have been an ILB. Running a 3-4 I would rather see them keep someone like Foley or now maybe Anderson to develop/learn their talent and to have great special teams than some other spots on the team.

Wolf
01-04-2005, 11:37 PM
throw stats out of the window with Carr versus Vick (however that started in this thread)... Major difference between the 2.. Carr plays against 11 defenders.. Vick plays against 10 defenders.. Makes no sense? Teams have to respect Vick and put a "spy" on Vick.. that leaves 1 guy strickly in no mans land instead of doubling a TE or maybe doubling a WR.

And Yes Carr can run.. But can Carr beat you with his feet like Vick can? No, Vick can go the distance...And that is the same as a DD compared to a LT comparison.

Grid
01-05-2005, 02:53 AM
There is no doubt that what Vick does, gives defenses a hard time. There is also no doubting that when it comes to actually being a QB.. meaning.. throwing the ball to the open receiver. Carr is 10x better than Vick.

Now.. which is better for their team? I dunno... I cant predict the future. The Falcons are in the playoffs this year because of their defense... their offense did their part, but it was their defense that won games. Did Vick help? most definatly.. but he isnt a one man show.. he didnt single handedly win any games this year.. for the most part, his contributions came from making big runs at important times.

anyway.. this is a pointless debate. Can I compare Carr to Vick? yes I can.. Carr has better stats all around. The only difference between the two teams is the wins and losses :).. and neither of the teams records can be laid at the feet of their QBs. Vick did not push them into the playoffs, and Carr did not keep us out of it. All i know is that its an unfair statement to say Vick is better than Carr.. when he has a dominating top 10 defense taking him to the playoffs.. and an Oline that gives him protection. Put Carr and our WRs on the Falcons team and we would be in the superbowl. Then again who knows.. without Vick's scrambling.. maybe the Oline wouldnt be as good.


Anyway.. I understand your arguements. Vick is exciting to watch.. he makes plays at important times, and his team is in the playoffs. My only point is that you cannot say he is a better QB than Carr, when Carr has better stats and does not have the help that Vick has

Texan Gal 312
01-05-2005, 08:20 AM
. Comparing Carr to Vick is like comparing apples to oranges. .


The stats were originally posted in response to the statement I even think Vick's arm is stronger than Carr's. Then everybody went off on a tangent.
Vick brings many things to the table but be a strong armed accurate passer is not one of them.

Wolf
01-05-2005, 09:12 AM
There is no doubt that what Vick does, gives defenses a hard time. There is also no doubting that when it comes to actually being a QB.. meaning.. throwing the ball to the open receiver. Carr is 10x better than Vick.

Now.. which is better for their team? I dunno... I cant predict the future. The Falcons are in the playoffs this year because of their defense... their offense did their part, but it was their defense that won games. Did Vick help? most definatly.. but he isnt a one man show.. he didnt single handedly win any games this year.. for the most part, his contributions came from making big runs at important times.

anyway.. this is a pointless debate. Can I compare Carr to Vick? yes I can.. Carr has better stats all around. The only difference between the two teams is the wins and losses :).. and neither of the teams records can be laid at the feet of their QBs. Vick did not push them into the playoffs, and Carr did not keep us out of it. All i know is that its an unfair statement to say Vick is better than Carr.. when he has a dominating top 10 defense taking him to the playoffs.. and an Oline that gives him protection. Put Carr and our WRs on the Falcons team and we would be in the superbowl. Then again who knows.. without Vick's scrambling.. maybe the Oline wouldnt be as good.


Anyway.. I understand your arguements. Vick is exciting to watch.. he makes plays at important times, and his team is in the playoffs. My only point is that you cannot say he is a better QB than Carr, when Carr has better stats and does not have the help that Vick has


All I know is without vick last year,it got Dan Reeves fired, then they went 3-1 to close out the season with him... And look at their record this year with him playing and without him playing.. there is some intangable with him playing.

infantrycak
01-05-2005, 10:32 AM
All I know is without vick last year,it got Dan Reeves fired, then they went 3-1 to close out the season with him... And look at their record this year with him playing and without him playing.. there is some intangable with him playing.

Very true, on the other hand it isn't like the Falcons still had Brett Favre waiting in the wings as a back up. The guys they had played miserably.

brickmantexanfan
01-05-2005, 10:51 AM
You have see the mistakes to fix them(thats the coaches job)Maybe i just see all the good things that have happened to this team since 2002,and can't find a reason to believe that the set backs it has encountered out weighs the progress.What I mean is i don't see the team taking 2 steps forward then 2 steps back,more like 2 forward and 1 back,but thats just me,not really going anywhere with this but just tired of the negative stuff when i see so many psitive sides.thats all

The Wal-Mart
01-05-2005, 03:12 PM
There is no doubt that what Vick does, gives defenses a hard time. There is also no doubting that when it comes to actually being a QB.. meaning.. throwing the ball to the open receiver. Carr is 10x better than Vick.

Now.. which is better for their team? I dunno... I cant predict the future. The Falcons are in the playoffs this year because of their defense... their offense did their part, but it was their defense that won games. Did Vick help? most definatly.. but he isnt a one man show.. he didnt single handedly win any games this year.. for the most part, his contributions came from making big runs at important times.

anyway.. this is a pointless debate. Can I compare Carr to Vick? yes I can.. Carr has better stats all around. The only difference between the two teams is the wins and losses :).. and neither of the teams records can be laid at the feet of their QBs. Vick did not push them into the playoffs, and Carr did not keep us out of it. All i know is that its an unfair statement to say Vick is better than Carr.. when he has a dominating top 10 defense taking him to the playoffs.. and an Oline that gives him protection. Put Carr and our WRs on the Falcons team and we would be in the superbowl. Then again who knows.. without Vick's scrambling.. maybe the Oline wouldnt be as good.


Anyway.. I understand your arguements. Vick is exciting to watch.. he makes plays at important times, and his team is in the playoffs. My only point is that you cannot say he is a better QB than Carr, when Carr has better stats and does not have the help that Vick has

Not trying to disrespect your opinions or philosophy Grid. I can appreciate a fan sticking to their guns and sticking up for their quarterback. I have a lot of respect for David Carr and what he does on and off the field. He's a classy guy especially reading about the whole incident with his wife. He rarely loses his temper (that might be a bad thing though), hasn't openly criticized his teammates or the organization, and I've never seen him mouth an F-bomb on television (unlike Jake Delhomme in the SB). My whole thing with stats is even journeymen Qbs are prone to put up good numbers in a particular season. Does that mean they made their team any better or are more important than franchise Qbs? I don't think so. I'm not ready to compare Carr's skills and on-field performance to that of Vick. They're just too different. If your defintion of a pure quarterback is one that stands in the pocket and hands off to the running back, than Carr has more in common with Troy Aikman (maybe even Plummer) than he does Michael Vick. And no Vick's not the Falcon savior, but you have to admit they're a completely different team when he doesn't play. Anyway that's just my 2 cents and I need to boost my post level.

The Wal-Mart
01-05-2005, 03:22 PM
The stats were originally posted in response to the statement I even think Vick's arm is stronger than Carr's. Then everybody went off on a tangent.
Vick brings many things to the table but be a strong armed accurate passer is not one of them.

I was referring to how far they can throw the ball and the velocity they put on it. Coming out of college Vick was touted as having one of the strongest if not the strongest arm in the draft. Same thing with Carr, but I believe Vick's a stronger passer but less accurate.