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View Full Version : So, are we really that far away?


ToxicButt
12-02-2008, 03:36 PM
It sucks to be talking about next year, but it is what it is. So, my question is whether we're really that far away.

To start the year, most folks thought if things broke right, we might contend for a playoff spot, but if not this year, definitely next year. Well, nobody could have foreseen the trainwreck that is our QB turnover situation. If you cut that down to an average number, weíre probably talking about a 6-6 or 7-5 record, which gives the rest of this season a totally different feel.

Back to my question Ė I donít think weíre that far away. I mean really, worse teams have been fixed.

Fixes on Offense
Our key problems are (i) QB turnovers and (ii) red zone efficiency. Both of these problems are fixed by running the ball effectively. Iíd commit specific resources to deal with these very fixable problems. First, I get a big boy RB to run with Slaton. I use a 3rd RD pick or sign a FA. Iím not talking about a half measure like Green/Brown/Taylor. I also use a mid round pick or FA signing to supplant or push Myers for the C job. The ZBS is looking better and better, particularly with the talents of Slaton. Letís finish the damn job.

There are two questions that will be answered next year.
1. Can Kubiak really be a run first coach. I think he knows in his head to run the ball. The question is whether his heartís in it. This could ultimately make or break Kubiak.
2. Is Schaub the guy? He has played 1 full season's worth of games, and the jury is still out. Next year is his make or break year. Give him a running game and see what he produces. Stay healthy, limit turnovers, make plays. I think he can be the guy.

If he can't do it with a running game, then we don't make the playoffs next year, we don't pay Schaub his $10MM bonus in March 2010, he's gone as a FA, Kubiak is gone and likely Smith too. We start over.

Should we draft a QB this year? No - fix the running game. It helps us in the present and the future. It will benefit whatever GM/HC/QB we bring in in 2010.

Fixes on Defense
We basically suck and have no identity or scheme.

Coaching Ė it looks like we may be auditioning Bush to be the new DC. If so, the early returns may be promising. We will learn much more in the next 2 weeks about whether our horrific defense is more about piss poor coaching or inadequate talent. In any event, it starts here and a strong DC would go a long way. We have to get the DC right.

Personnel Ė
I basically devote the entire draft to the Defense. The composite results of the last 3 years have been good enough with hits (Mario, Demeco, Winson, OD, DA, Diles, Slaton, Adibi, Spencer (what could have been)), misses (TJ, Okoye, Okam) and juryís-still-outís (okoye?, Brown, Bennett, Moulden, Jacoby Jones). I give Smith another draft to handle.

With picks in RD 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 (3rd rounder used as a RB), the measuring stick is get 2 players that are good enough to start right away, and quality of depth everywhere else.

Given my druthers, Iíd take (i) starting pass rushing DE, (ii) starting FS, (iii) depth/possible starting space eating DT; (iv) depth/possible starting OLB to push Adibi, Diles and Bentley, and (v) depth everywhere else. I bring back Dunta, Reeves, Bennett and Molden. With Duntaís leadership, a cohesive scheme and an improved pass rush, thereís enough at CB to be functional, and possibly a plus.

Fortunately, our special teams is very good and needs no fixes. We can very easily have a top 10 offense (in scoring, not just yards) that can run the ball. With the right scheme/coaching and personnel upgrades, we can have a mid level defense next year.

Weaker teams have made the playoffs. I donít post much here, so let me know what you think.

gtexan02
12-02-2008, 03:40 PM
I really think our defense is an underachieving unit with tons of talent that just hasn't had the right coaching and schemes. We saw it last night.
As a result of that, I am BEGGING the front office to not select another defensive lineman with the round 1 pick this year. We've had 3 years of it in a row. I think a S or OL would be my top choice

threetoedpete
12-02-2008, 03:54 PM
I really think our defense is an underachieving unit with tons of talent that just hasn't had the right coaching and schemes. We saw it last night.
As a result of that, I am BEGGING the front office to not select another defensive lineman with the round 1 pick this year. We've had 3 years of it in a row. I think a S or OL would be my top choice

How can someone watch Greenwood, Weaver and Reeves all season long and post that ? I don't feel ya there bro. Tons ?

All defense, don't know about that one.... what they established last night is that power runing back isn't just window dressing. They have to have one. Would of been nice if Green would of paid off. Nope, draft one or bring in a FA.

Give up a two for Micheal Bush ? Make a very nice combo. thunder and lightening.

Will/DE for the first round....that bangs a hole. First step guy who can at least come in and give some speed on third and long. Adibi is looking good, but you don't know about Dilles. He should be ok. Do you want to chance going with Greenwood as your main Back up at the will in '09 ? I don't.

I don't believe they will draft another high end middle linebacker either. You Ray, Ray guys need to stow that....unless Demeeco is dead or hurt, ain't happening.

Center the second round....or do they grab the compemenary RB ? Do they sitck with Meyers and live with the lack of production on the goal line and in short yardage situations ? I don't know. What I do know is slaton needs a big thighed, beastie to take some of the load off of him. Got a fine gem with him. You don't pound that. You polish it up and take care of it so it lasts you a few years to enjoy.

They could take a couple of offensive guys with the first four picks.

Guy will have to be very special to take at saftey. not saying it won't happen.
Sayng he's going to have to blow them away befor they do take one that high.

infantrycak
12-02-2008, 04:03 PM
What I do know is slaton needs a big thighed, beastie to take some of the load off of him. Got a fine gem with him. You don't pound that. You polish it up and take care of it so it lasts you a few years to enjoy.

What they need is a guy who excels at short yardage/goal line. Green when healthy was good at that. Slaton may get better but I suspect will never be great. It is funny to me though how many folks think that needs to be a Brandon Jacobs big body RB. Historically, the best have not necessarily been large such as TD record holders LT, Emmitt, Payton, Davis, Holmes, etc.

gtexan02
12-02-2008, 04:06 PM
How can someone watch Greenwood, Weaver and Reeves all season long and post that ? I don't feel ya there bro. Tons ?


Williams and Ryans are givens.
Okoye is given a pass in my book because he plays DT and he's only 21. I think he has talent, but needs conditioning and coaching.
Last night we saw a more disruptive Weaver than ever before. Scheme?
Abidi and Diles are good LB and are very young. Give them time with a new coach.
Robinson, Bennett, and Reeves all showed up last night at different times. We could have a good secondary with better coaching.

At safety I feel like we don't have anyone spectacular

Jackie Chiles
12-02-2008, 04:15 PM
Williams and Ryans are givens.
Okoye is given a pass in my book because he plays DT and he's only 21. I think he has talent, but needs conditioning and coaching.
Last night we saw a more disruptive Weaver than ever before. Scheme?
Abidi and Diles are good LB and are very young. Give them time with a new coach.
Robinson, Bennett, and Reeves all showed up last night at different times. We could have a good secondary with better coaching.

At safety I feel like we don't have anyone spectacular

Speaking of Diles has there been a report on his condition since the surgery? Is he expected to make a complete recovery or should we expect some kind of Charles Spencer saga? What is his timetable like?

threetoedpete
12-02-2008, 04:27 PM
Williams and Ryans are givens.
Okoye is given a pass in my book because he plays DT and he's only 21. I think he has talent, but needs conditioning and coaching.
Last night we saw a more disruptive Weaver than ever before. Scheme?
Abidi and Diles are good LB and are very young. Give them time with a new coach.
Robinson, Bennett, and Reeves all showed up last night at different times. We could have a good secondary with better coaching.

At safety I feel like we don't have anyone spectacular

Well you have two locks and two we don't know yet and one two soon to tell. In my book that's not tons.

Every year when you don't get the resluts you want you chain someone up to the whipping post....been that way for seven years. Now they may throw Richard Smith to the wolves to satisify you. But there isn't tons of tallent on the deffensive side of the ball yet.

What they have done is over pay for marginal tallent that you believe is high end tallent. On that one we can agree. And after Robair Smith, Gary Walker, and Weaver we got the same crew banging to go out and do it again in the '09 off season. Just insane. You missed the two rotational d-lineman by the way....we don't need to draft those....they do need a first step guy or a will who can play the part of the edge rusher on thrid and longs.

And...what we know for a fact is that Kubes runs this ship like a pirate. He's the captian. No one does interveiws without going through Kubiak. What you guys don't know is what is being said behind the doors. What I know is what the Denver defense has done for forty years. Rush four-cover seven. If things have mysteriously changed the last three weeks....up to you to figure out who is saying what to who. They aren't good enough yet with your tons of tallent to just rush the four. That's what the HC wants. Said it in the summer. The DBs aren't athletic enough to cover for more than three seconds and just rush four. And......when they send five or six no one gets there. Been that way way befor Smith got here. So either your high end tallent isn't getting it done. Or the HC is one stuborn SOB.
Smith is merely employing the plan the HC wants. There is no way on this ship that Richard Smith enjoys complete autonomy with the defense. This has been Kubes' baby. Either way the gloves or off now. Tallent or not, they're giving you what you said you wanted....more pressure. They live and die with the blitz the rest of the season.

V3rm0nt3r
12-02-2008, 04:31 PM
ok so i just got surgery yesterday and am now on narcotics so if this post makes no sense or something just roll with it.

i watched the game last night (usually i miss the games because i work sundays 11-5 and it sucks) and this is what i saw.

the o-line, against the only semibright spot on the jags roster, kept Rosenfels upright against Henderson and their two top draft picks. my keenness towards Rosenfels has dropped recently due to the infamous Rosencopter incident and i think we should move him for what ever we can get but he was fairly effective in getting the ball to AJ for the first half.

the line also created gaps for Slaton which wasn't to hard considering their lack of LB play.

Mario is a BEAST.

Weaver was a huge suprise yesterday to me considering when i do see a game i see little to none of him but he was active yesterday although he's still not worth his paycheck.

Greenwood is a waste of money and should be cut at the end of the season so that Diles, Adibi, and Bently can compete for their jobs.

one of the few things i didn't like on offense was the lack of relief for Slaton on the field. i know he's good but i want a carolina type run attack not a san diego where LT is the only back worthy of carrying between the tackles (don't get me wrong i like that Sproles guy but he cant be sent up the middle).

I like Reeves personally and i don't think he deserves all this crap this board throws on him. he gets most of the throws for a reason, Dunta Robinson is on the other side, and until we can get a premier number 2 i think anybody who stands opposite Dunta will be targeted not to mention he has very little help over the top.

i know that Jacksonville isn't good this year but this is what i saw. and again im on pain meds so all of this could be just a hallucination as well as the game i watched last night.

eriadoc
12-02-2008, 04:51 PM
There are two questions that will be answered next year.
1. Can Kubiak really be a run first coach. I think he knows in his head to run the ball. The question is whether his heartís in it. This could ultimately make or break Kubiak.
2. Is Schaub the guy? He has played 1 full season's worth of games, and the jury is still out. Next year is his make or break year. Give him a running game and see what he produces. Stay healthy, limit turnovers, make plays. I think he can be the guy.


1. I don't think Kubiak has much faith in his running game when it comes to must-run scenarios (short yardage, goal-line, late-game, etc.). Myers and to a lesser extent Brisiel have had issues most of the season. Duane Brown's a rookie. Eric Winston has struggled some in the running game, as well.

2. I think Kubiak still has confidence that Schaub can be coached, but I don't see that in his demeanor with Sage. If Schaub can stay healthy, I think Kubiak can turn him into a good QB. Nonetheless, I feel like we should draft a QB this year and start grooming him, just in case.

eriadoc
12-02-2008, 04:54 PM
I like Reeves personally and i don't think he deserves all this crap this board throws on him. he gets most of the throws for a reason, Dunta Robinson is on the other side, and until we can get a premier number 2 i think anybody who stands opposite Dunta will be targeted not to mention he has very little help over the top.

Reeves didn't line up across from Robinson at all for the first five five games, and Robinson has only really been playing nickel since he's been back. He's been on the field a bit more the last couple games, but I can't see where Robinson's presence has had any effect on Reeves' target ratio. Other teams are targeting him because he gives up the big play more than most starting CBs.

Norg
12-02-2008, 05:39 PM
well at first i said during the draft and FA do defensive defensive but now my mind has swayed a little

next year its all going to be on schubs sholders is third year in the team and we will need him to just manage the game thats why we brought him to mange the game not to be a eli or peyton be more like a collins or garcia

so with that being said he needs help

Get a POwer running back to get our Thunder and lighting we never had

get someone good on O line to protect our QB which has cursed us for so long

Fire richard smith

put if we do that obv we will have no improvement on our D so its a gamble


these are the 3 if not top things 2 do in the offseason

HJam72
12-02-2008, 06:10 PM
It sucks to be talking about next year, but it is what it is. So, my question is whether we're really that far away.

To start the year, most folks thought if things broke right, we might contend for a playoff spot, but if not this year, definitely next year. Well, nobody could have foreseen the trainwreck that is our QB turnover situation. If you cut that down to an average number, weíre probably talking about a 6-6 or 7-5 record, which gives the rest of this season a totally different feel.

Back to my question Ė I donít think weíre that far away. I mean really, worse teams have been fixed.

Fixes on Offense
Our key problems are (i) QB turnovers and (ii) red zone efficiency. Both of these problems are fixed by running the ball effectively. Iíd commit specific resources to deal with these very fixable problems. First, I get a big boy RB to run with Slaton. I use a 3rd RD pick or sign a FA. Iím not talking about a half measure like Green/Brown/Taylor. I also use a mid round pick or FA signing to supplant or push Myers for the C job. The ZBS is looking better and better, particularly with the talents of Slaton. Letís finish the damn job.

There are two questions that will be answered next year.
1. Can Kubiak really be a run first coach. I think he knows in his head to run the ball. The question is whether his heartís in it. This could ultimately make or break Kubiak.
2. Is Schaub the guy? He has played 1 full season's worth of games, and the jury is still out. Next year is his make or break year. Give him a running game and see what he produces. Stay healthy, limit turnovers, make plays. I think he can be the guy.

If he can't do it with a running game, then we don't make the playoffs next year, we don't pay Schaub his $10MM bonus in March 2010, he's gone as a FA, Kubiak is gone and likely Smith too. We start over.

Should we draft a QB this year? No - fix the running game. It helps us in the present and the future. It will benefit whatever GM/HC/QB we bring in in 2010.

Fixes on Defense
We basically suck and have no identity or scheme.

Coaching Ė it looks like we may be auditioning Bush to be the new DC. If so, the early returns may be promising. We will learn much more in the next 2 weeks about whether our horrific defense is more about piss poor coaching or inadequate talent. In any event, it starts here and a strong DC would go a long way. We have to get the DC right.

Personnel Ė
I basically devote the entire draft to the Defense. The composite results of the last 3 years have been good enough with hits (Mario, Demeco, Winson, OD, DA, Diles, Slaton, Adibi, Spencer (what could have been)), misses (TJ, Okoye, Okam) and juryís-still-outís (okoye?, Brown, Bennett, Moulden, Jacoby Jones). I give Smith another draft to handle.

With picks in RD 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 (3rd rounder used as a RB), the measuring stick is get 2 players that are good enough to start right away, and quality of depth everywhere else.

Given my druthers, Iíd take (i) starting pass rushing DE, (ii) starting FS, (iii) depth/possible starting space eating DT; (iv) depth/possible starting OLB to push Adibi, Diles and Bentley, and (v) depth everywhere else. I bring back Dunta, Reeves, Bennett and Molden. With Duntaís leadership, a cohesive scheme and an improved pass rush, thereís enough at CB to be functional, and possibly a plus.

Fortunately, our special teams is very good and needs no fixes. We can very easily have a top 10 offense (in scoring, not just yards) that can run the ball. With the right scheme/coaching and personnel upgrades, we can have a mid level defense next year.

Weaker teams have made the playoffs. I donít post much here, so let me know what you think.

Looks like you're trying to use your 3rd round pick twice. Other than that, I pretty much agree with you.

My main hope is that Richard Smith is gone.

V3rm0nt3r
12-02-2008, 06:15 PM
Reeves didn't line up across from Robinson at all for the first five five games, and Robinson has only really been playing nickel since he's been back. He's been on the field a bit more the last couple games, but I can't see where Robinson's presence has had any effect on Reeves' target ratio. Other teams are targeting him because he gives up the big play more than most starting CBs.

i still think the announcer said he had a 50ish% of completions against him. it's not great but it's good enough when you don't have much safety help.

also in my opinion Smith should try to get either a safety or a DE during FA even though they may not be a permanent solution it would allow us to draft a pile moving RB in the 2nd instead of waiting for the third. (i like James Davis)

Polo
12-02-2008, 06:29 PM
I think Adibi in and Greenwood out make our defense a lot better...If Diles was playing I think our LBing unit would look really good...

ToxicButt
12-02-2008, 06:30 PM
How can someone watch Greenwood, Weaver and Reeves all season long and post that ? I don't feel ya there bro. Tons ?

All defense, don't know about that one.... what they established last night is that power runing back isn't just window dressing. They have to have one. Would of been nice if Green would of paid off. Nope, draft one or bring in a FA.

Give up a two for Micheal Bush ? Make a very nice combo. thunder and lightening.

Will/DE for the first round....that bangs a hole. First step guy who can at least come in and give some speed on third and long. Adibi is looking good, but you don't know about Dilles. He should be ok. Do you want to chance going with Greenwood as your main Back up at the will in '09 ? I don't.

I don't believe they will draft another high end middle linebacker either. You Ray, Ray guys need to stow that....unless Demeeco is dead or hurt, ain't happening.

Center the second round....or do they grab the compemenary RB ? Do they sitck with Meyers and live with the lack of production on the goal line and in short yardage situations ? I don't know. What I do know is slaton needs a big thighed, beastie to take some of the load off of him. Got a fine gem with him. You don't pound that. You polish it up and take care of it so it lasts you a few years to enjoy.

They could take a couple of offensive guys with the first four picks.

Guy will have to be very special to take at saftey. not saying it won't happen.
Sayng he's going to have to blow them away befor they do take one that high.

I'm with you on the compliment to Slaton. I'd have them use a 3rd rounder or sign via FA. But it's a big spot to fill and arguably completes our offense. We continue to upgrade at C or G positions on the OL, but we can go to war if we add a power back. It's crucial.

You and I agree - a speed/rushing DE or OLB is the priority on the defense. i wouldn't mind both. I could see a FS if they see someone special in Rd 2, but I think it's counter to Smith/Kubiak philosophy.

Of the 7 picks, I'd go at least 5 picks on defense. Only need a power RB and interior OL.

ToxicButt
12-02-2008, 06:38 PM
.... And...what we know for a fact is that Kubes runs this ship like a pirate. He's the captian. No one does interveiws without going through Kubiak. What you guys don't know is what is being said behind the doors. What I know is what the Denver defense has done for forty years. Rush four-cover seven. If things have mysteriously changed the last three weeks....up to you to figure out who is saying what to who. ....

Now this is interesting. Under your theory, i'd have to assume that mcnair finally told Kubiak to fail a different way on defense.

Here's the problem. Before the last 2 wins, the players have been staunch in their support for Kubes. Far, far less so for Smith. Throw in Jerome Solomon's recent article saying that some players are wondering why it took so long for the coaches to get aggresive. The picture is not clear to me but there seems to be 2 alternatives:
(i) Smith is in charge of the Defensive scheme, with blessing from Kubes. The failing scheme is Smiths, with blessing from Kubes, but it's primarily smth's doing. OR
(ii) Smith is a puppet carrying out Kubes orders for the rush 4, cover 7. And they've done a good job fooling the players into thinking it's Smith's scheme.

I have a hard time believing that the players can be duped into thinking this is smith's deal. It would require complete utter loyalty by Smith to take the fall for the failing scheme. i don't know the guy, but i think it would come out that it's Kubes doing, not Smiths.

thoughts?

HJam72
12-02-2008, 06:40 PM
Hasn't Eugene Wilson played some FS and done well?

Maybe we don't really need it, but I'd get real excited over a 1st round CB.

buddyboy
12-02-2008, 06:40 PM
Ya'll are spot on about the complimentary big back. What Slaton brings to the table is the big play possibility, but when it comes down to it, we can't run for those 2-3 yards that we need. 1st and goal, we run three times and can't penetrate. We need someone who can punch through the line for the yards we need, even if it's only one or two.

HJam72
12-02-2008, 06:44 PM
Ya'll are spot on about the complimentary big back. What Slaton brings to the table is the big play possibility, but when it comes down to it, we can't run for those 2-3 yards that we need. 1st and goal, we run three times and can't penetrate. We need someone who can punch through the line for the yards we need, even if it's only one or two.

Vonta Leach with his backup (whoever that is) blocking for him?

If it works it could save us a draft pick to spend on the D. Course, Slaton probably does need to be rested some too. I'm not sure about that.

brakos82
12-02-2008, 06:54 PM
ok so i just got surgery yesterday and am now on narcotics so if this post makes no sense or something just roll with it. Dude, those things are awesome... :specnatz:

i watched the game last night (usually i miss the games because i work sundays 11-5 and it sucks) and this is what i saw. Damn... I'd call in sick...

the o-line, against the only semibright spot on the jags roster, kept Rosenfels upright against Henderson and their two top draft picks. my keenness towards Rosenfels has dropped recently due to the infamous Rosencopter incident and i think we should move him for what ever we can get but he was fairly effective in getting the ball to AJ for the first half. Gotta agree there.

the line also created gaps for Slaton which wasn't to hard considering their lack of LB play. Yep.

Mario is a BEAST. Well, duh... :mario2:

Weaver was a huge suprise yesterday to me considering when i do see a game i see little to none of him but he was active yesterday although he's still not worth his paycheck. I'm still not impressed yet...

Greenwood is a waste of money and should be cut at the end of the season so that Diles, Adibi, and Bently can compete for their jobs. Yep.

one of the few things i didn't like on offense was the lack of relief for Slaton on the field. i know he's good but i want a carolina type run attack not a san diego where LT is the only back worthy of carrying between the tackles (don't get me wrong i like that Sproles guy but he cant be sent up the middle). Well, that's what Ahman was for...

I like Reeves personally and i don't think he deserves all this crap this board throws on him. he gets most of the throws for a reason, Dunta Robinson is on the other side, and until we can get a premier number 2 i think anybody who stands opposite Dunta will be targeted not to mention he has very little help over the top. Still not 100% convinced he's our answer, especially when we play against high-powered offense in Indy twice a year. The Jags have no real WR's on the field.

i know that Jacksonville isn't good this year but this is what i saw. and again im on pain meds so all of this could be just a hallucination as well as the game i watched last night. Well, you weren't THAT loopy watching the game... :brando:

For being high, pretty damn good post. Usually when I'm drunk, I have strange punctuation marks and spellings only a two-year-old would understand....

maddogmrb
12-02-2008, 07:08 PM
Vonta Leach with his backup (whoever that is) blocking for him?

If it works it could save us a draft pick to spend on the D. Course, Slaton probably does need to be rested some too. I'm not sure about that.

Agreed! The problem really isn't with the RB's it is with the OLine not being able to move the DLine in short yardage situations. If you watch those 3 goal line running plays our OLine was being pushed into the backfield on each play. It would be hard for Earl to score when his line is being pushed back into him.