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GlassHalfFull
11-28-2008, 06:21 PM
Good News

Texans quarterback Matt Schaub has already started his lobbying effort to return to the field, and coach Gary Kubiak is watching and listening.

After missing just three starts with a torn medial collateral ligament in his left knee, Schaub is taking a number of repetitions in practice this week. He has made such progress in the past week that Kubiak is leaving open the possibility that Schaub may play against the Jaguars on Monday Night Football.

"They aren't having me do any more (in practice) than I feel I can go out there and do right now," Schaub said. "I feel like I can do a whole lot more too. It's really feeling good. I guess I'm kind of surprising myself at how well I've come along, given the time.

"I feel like I'm getting to the point where I can go out there and play. We just have to see how it goes in the next couple of days. I feel like I can go out there and do my job."

Originally, the Texans said Schaub would miss two to four weeks. Kubiak pointed out Thursday that this is the fourth week and Schaub is "on schedule."

"I think there's a chance (he will play Monday), but I think we've got to be smart and know that he can go out there and do all of the things he can do on a normal basis," Kubiak said.


link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6137434.html)

SheTexan
11-28-2008, 06:24 PM
I don't know whether to be glad or mad. I'm playing Sage instead of MS on my FF team this week. I NEED TO WIN to win my division. Regardless, I'm in the playoffs so I guess it really does not matter. Sage has already cost me two games. Might do better without a QB.

gary
11-28-2008, 06:28 PM
Are you allowed to go without a QB?

Brandon420tx
11-28-2008, 06:29 PM
Yay!! Matts back :texflag:

I hope the Jags offense stops themselves though

Thorn
11-28-2008, 06:30 PM
Does this mean the QB is NOT going to be throwing to the other team?

I'm all for that.

gary
11-28-2008, 06:32 PM
Me too.

Maddict5
11-28-2008, 06:36 PM
im not sure he'll make it this week but id like it if he did

sage has already shown hes not our guy long term... we need to find out if matt is and that means playing as many games as possible this season

Texans_Chick
11-28-2008, 06:44 PM
No way he plays on Monday. They just want to make JAX prep for him.

Just sort of like how they were kind of cagey about Andre Johnson maybe playing against the Colts last year the week after he hurt his knee. Even though he was hobbling around in a brace.

Given Kubiak's comments, I wouldn't be surprised if Schaub is still in street clothes.

I am happier hearing the reports saying that Slaton feels fine.

gary
11-28-2008, 07:09 PM
I guess we won't know untill game time.

mexican_texan
11-28-2008, 07:21 PM
Schaub would ask Kubiak to play if he caught the bird flu.

gary
11-28-2008, 07:27 PM
I would not doubt that.

kcdoubleeagle
11-28-2008, 08:02 PM
damn...I am glad people are now going to give Schaub a shot.....it got very old listening to everyone whine about how much better Sage is than Schaub.....I guess this little stretch of having Rosenfels as qb made everyone realize that we had it much better with Schaub in the game.

gary
11-28-2008, 08:04 PM
Much better with another QB all together.

edo783
11-28-2008, 09:08 PM
Just part of the chess game that goes on being an NFL head coach. The most that Matt will be is the back up. If Rosenfail really screws the pooch, maybe he gets in, but I doubt it. (not that Rosenfail would screw the pooch mind you)

CloakNNNdagger
11-28-2008, 09:22 PM
My feelings are that if this is not a statement of intended deception, and Schaub is allowed to return this early and takes any direct shot to his knee, we will be quickly looking for his personalized stretcher.............and likely a major new QB investment for next year.

Norg
11-28-2008, 11:23 PM
there is no way matt is playing this monday maybe to backup sage if he screws up

thats only if hes 100% if not he might just be a third stringer for just one game

Jackie Chiles
11-28-2008, 11:58 PM
After reading the quotes from Schaub and seeing the video from the team site Matt seems to be legitimately optimistic about playing Monday. 2-4 weeks was the timetable from the beginning, its been 3, am I the only one who thinks its not so crazy for him to suit up and play this week?

As far as the injury is concerned, wasn't the ligament torn? What is going to change and make it more safe to play next week or the week after? If the danger is to the remaining ligaments in the knee won't a brace stabilize those?

Maybe I'm just desperate for some better play from the QB positions but I'd like to see him play on Monday. He needs more game experience in the worst way and it would be nice to see him play through pain.

Double Barrel
11-29-2008, 12:35 AM
Does this mean the QB is NOT going to be throwing to the other team?

I'm all for that.

LOL! Sad, but true.

I hope he returns. Our first game on MNF would be nice to win, and I think we have a better chance with MS behind center.

Showtime100
11-29-2008, 12:41 AM
damn...I am glad people are now going to give Schaub a shot.....it got very old listening to everyone whine about how much better Sage is than Schaub.....I guess this little stretch of having Rosenfels as qb made everyone realize that we had it much better with Schaub in the game.

To me, when all is said and done I look and see the same result. When Jeff Garcia was looking for a job I thought we should go after him. Sage, Schaub = what's the difference?

Maddict5
11-29-2008, 03:40 AM
Sage, Schaub = what's the difference?

schaub doesnt make nearly as many boneheaded throws... usually his turnovers resulted (bar miami) from pressure from very good defenses

Showtime100
11-29-2008, 03:46 AM
schaub doesnt make nearly as many boneheaded throws... usually his turnovers resulted (bar miami) from pressure from very good defenses

Again, what's the end result? I agree with you and think your observation is right on, but the result is the same. My opinion is both aren't going to take us anywhere.

Maddict5
11-29-2008, 04:39 AM
matt's problem is fixable (better protection)

CloakNNNdagger
11-29-2008, 07:29 AM
matt's problem is fixable (better protection)

His body, though, may not be.

texasguy346
11-29-2008, 08:27 AM
If Rosenfail really screws the pooch, maybe he gets in, but I doubt it. (not that Rosenfail would screw the pooch mind you)

Rosenfail might try to screw the pooch, but he would likely be off target and end up screwing the pooch's ear.

FILO_girl
11-29-2008, 08:49 AM
Much better with another QB all together.

Must spread rep...yada yada...
Someone hit gary some rep for me. :)

alphajoker
11-29-2008, 08:55 AM
Schaub would ask Kubiak to play if he caught the bird flu.

Unless it's just the regular flu, which then he wouldn't. Isn't that what he had before the Colts game?

SheTexan
11-29-2008, 09:25 AM
Are you allowed to go without a QB?

In my league we have to call in our lineup one hour before the first game of the week. Thursday games always mess things up because teams can change their starters before the Sun/Mon games. When Matt went down with his knee injury I picked up Sage (stupid move, but not much left that was any better.) So yes, we can play without a QB.

b0ng
11-29-2008, 09:33 AM
I think Schaub will dress, but as a backup. Probably will really only be there to serve a reminder to Sage that the possibility of getting pulled is there.

The real question is, if Sage is Sage, then will the chants at Reliant be for Schaub?

Malloy
11-29-2008, 09:35 AM
Does this mean the QB is NOT going to be throwing to the other team?

I'm all for that.

I dont like it when we try fancy new stuff...

TEXANS84
11-29-2008, 09:54 AM
I see a smokescreen in that article, no way Matt plays Monday night.

False Start
11-29-2008, 09:56 AM
So yes, we can play without a QB.

Kind of like the Texans when we had Davis Carr? :heh:

Texans_Chick
11-29-2008, 09:58 AM
I see a smokescreen in that article, no way Matt plays Monday night.

Totally.

If you look at the entirety of the presser (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=4930), I don't see Schaub playing.

Maddict5
11-29-2008, 10:05 AM
Totally.

If you look at the entirety of the presser (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=4930), I don't see Schaub playing.

well if you were to believe schaub and aj, it seems like hes going to play... kubiak is actually the least positive.

TEXANS84
11-29-2008, 10:36 AM
well if you were to believe schaub and aj, it seems like hes going to play... kubiak is actually the least positive.

And the person who decides if Matt is playing or not. I would be suprised if Matt dresses.

cuppacoffee
11-29-2008, 10:37 AM
Rosenfail might try to screw the pooch, but he would likely be off target and end up screwing the pooch's ear.

:spit:

Oh well..I needed a new keyboard.

:coffee:

J-Russ
11-29-2008, 10:42 AM
If this doesn't fool average fans, then what make people think it'll fool NFL coaches. Point is, why even bother writing up this article/mentioning the possible comeback if it's not going to fool anybody?

Anyways, this is the best news I heard all week... if he does indeed plays. I cannot stand any week of Rosenfailllls.

Something funny though, usually when a article like this comes out there'll be fan saying "No!! Kubiak better not play Schaub. He freakin stinks. Sage is wayyyy better". Where are those crazy, funny, delusional fans. I want some laughs.

Maddict5
11-29-2008, 10:57 AM
And the person who decides if Matt is playing or not. I would be suprised if Matt dresses.

so how is it a smokescreen if kubiak isnt playing up his chances?

cowbellm00
11-29-2008, 11:05 AM
I'd prefer MS @ 50% over Rosencopter any week!

:texflag:

BSofA04
11-29-2008, 11:26 AM
Maybe Matt's jealous that Rosencopter did well last season on Thursday night so he wants a little piece of the limelight.

gary
11-29-2008, 01:12 PM
So yes, we can play without a QB.Go ahead then.*

The1ApplePie
11-29-2008, 01:35 PM
So now a national audience will get a chance to see Matt crying on the turf every time a defender gets close to him?

Not matter if its Tweedle-Dum or Tweedle-Dee behind center, as long as they can toss poorly thrown deep balls to Andre and let him make plays we should be good.:splits:

GP
11-30-2008, 10:32 AM
I love the title of this thread.

Sums up the Matt Schaub experiment: "Schaub MAY play Monday Night!!!"

He'll just get hurt again. If you were forced to bet your mortgage on whether Schaub would become the QB he was thought to be...or, bet upon the likelihood that he will get hurt (again) and be on the bench (again)...which one would you place your mortgage upon?

We need a QB in the worst way. But...Kubiak will go down with the ship (Schaub) by sticking with him through next year. Kubiak is stubborn AND loyal to a fault.

Blu
11-30-2008, 05:01 PM
damn...I am glad people are now going to give Schaub a shot.....it got very old listening to everyone whine about how much better Sage is than Schaub.....I guess this little stretch of having Rosenfels as qb made everyone realize that we had it much better with Schaub in the game.

word
:gun:
I just hope when Schaub feels 100% he shook off the give away flu.

brakos82
11-30-2008, 05:03 PM
word
:gun:
I just hope when Schaub feels 100% he shook off the give away flu.
Blu's back... hey, you're wanted over at GIF...

Blu
11-30-2008, 05:11 PM
Blu's back... hey, you're wanted over at GIF...
I can't Sig bet till we have a legit qb.
:jogger:

:pirate:Somos Puro Houston!

brakos82
11-30-2008, 05:26 PM
I can't Sig bet till we have a legit qb.
:jogger:

:pirate:Somos Puro Houston!
Cripes, aren't we like 1-23 when you do that?! :foottap:

Blu
11-30-2008, 05:36 PM
cripes, aren't we like 1-23 when you do that?! :foottap:

1o-4

brakos82
11-30-2008, 05:41 PM
1o-4
I remember 2006 pretty good... the only one you won was against Dat... and that was the Browns...

ZX758
11-30-2008, 08:26 PM
I say we need to sprinkle some Sage for Monday night......j/k Matt's way better. :specnatz:

texanskan
11-30-2008, 09:55 PM
I say we need to sprinkle some Sage for Monday night......j/k Matt's way better. :specnatz:


Manye, Sprinkle some Sage on it if you want a more exciting game that is

Hooston Texan
12-01-2008, 10:57 AM
The real question is, if Sage is Sage, then will the chants at Reliant be for Schaub?

No. Richard Justice and nostalgic Horn fans will be chanting for Vince! The slightly smarter Horn fans will be chanting for McCoy when they're not kvetching about the Big 12 tiebreaker. The Sooner fans will be yelling for Bradford. The TT fans will be shouting for Harrell. The UH people, depending on their vintage, will be chanting for either Kolb or Keenum. Both Rice fans will be screaming for Clement. Transplants from Missouri and Kansas will be hollering for Daniel or Reesing.

Not that this Virginia transplant won't have his own allegiance, either.

GlassHalfFull
12-01-2008, 10:58 AM
No. Richard Justice and nostalgic Horn fans will be chanting for Vince! The slightly smarter Horn fans will be chanting for McCoy when they're not kvetching about the Big 12 tiebreaker. The Sooner fans will be yelling for Bradford. The TT fans will be shouting for Harrell. The UH people, depending on their vintage, will be chanting for either Kolb or Keenum. Both Rice fans will be screaming for Clement. Transplants from Missouri and Kansas will be hollering for Daniel or Reesing.

Not that this Virginia transplant won't have his own allegiance, either.

Where in VA? I am from Martinsville.

Hooston Texan
12-01-2008, 11:18 AM
Where in VA? I am from Martinsville.

Virginia Beach--grew up a Navy brat.

gtexan02
12-01-2008, 11:20 AM
Charlottesville, here!

The1ApplePie
12-01-2008, 02:17 PM
No. Richard Justice and nostalgic Horn fans will be chanting for Vince! The slightly smarter Horn fans will be chanting for McCoy when they're not kvetching about the Big 12 tiebreaker. The Sooner fans will be yelling for Bradford. The TT fans will be shouting for Harrell. The UH people, depending on their vintage, will be chanting for either Kolb or Keenum. Both Rice fans will be screaming for Clement. Transplants from Missouri and Kansas will be hollering for Daniel or Reesing.

Not that this Virginia transplant won't have his own allegiance, either.

So, if their is a resounding "We want Sanchez!" chant, you'll know where it came from:whip:

PapaL
12-01-2008, 03:15 PM
Virginia Beach--grew up a Navy brat.

I was just down there for Thanksgiving. My sister lives on Ft. Story.

junior
12-01-2008, 11:08 PM
I figured I would piss a lot of people off.

Schaub is better than Sage how?

Opinion? Because wins and losses say otherwise.

Schaub still has yet to win a divisional game. Hell he can't even beat Jacksonville (Carr could at least do that). The difference between the two is that Schaub is better in losses than Sage thats it.

Sage sucks something awful in losses yet wins more often than Schaub. I guess if you're in to moral victories than Schaub is your man. I can't argue that. but 6-4 is better than Schaubs record.

That being said they both overall SUCK, interchangable yes, indespensible, no!

Jackie Chiles
12-01-2008, 11:11 PM
I figured I would piss a lot of people off.

Schaub is better than Sage how?

Opinion? Because wins and losses say otherwise.

Schaub still has yet to win a divisional game. Hell he can't even beat Jacksonville (Carr could at least do that). The difference between the two is that Schaub is better in losses than Sage thats it.

Sage sucks something awful in losses yet wins more often than Schaub. I guess if you're in to moral victories than Schaub is your man. I can't argue that. but 6-4 is better than Schaubs record.

That being said they both overall SUCK, interchangable yes, indespensible, no!

Sage was so pitiful today I can't believe you can even bring this up. Every time he threw the ball I could hardly bare to watch. He has lost whatever confidence he has and its ugly. I CANNOT wait until we can get Schaub back there. If the defense plays like this every week we can win our fair share of games with him behind center. If our D had not showed up this week and we had to put the game in Sage's hands.... Anyway we won, get healthy Matt.

Maddict5
12-01-2008, 11:12 PM
I figured I would piss a lot of people off.

Schaub is better than Sage how?

Opinion? Because wins and losses say otherwise.

Schaub still has yet to win a divisional game. Hell he can't even beat Jacksonville (Carr could at least do that). The difference between the two is that Schaub is better in losses than Sage thats it.

Sage sucks something awful in losses yet wins more often than Schaub. I guess if you're in to moral victories than Schaub is your man. I can't argue that. but 6-4 is better than Schaubs record.

That being said they both overall SUCK, interchangable yes, indespensible, no!

schaub has only played the jags twice (and only finished one).. and played terrific in that

sage beat their backups last yr (2 ko returns kinda helped).. and tonight he was solid

DoCRoN
12-02-2008, 01:00 AM
Schaub is better than Sage how?


Because there exists the "Rosencopter" and not the "Mattschaubcopter".

GP
12-02-2008, 08:53 AM
Sage was so pitiful today I can't believe you can even bring this up. Every time he threw the ball I could hardly bare to watch. He has lost whatever confidence he has and its ugly. I CANNOT wait until we can get Schaub back there. If the defense plays like this every week we can win our fair share of games with him behind center. If our D had not showed up this week and we had to put the game in Sage's hands.... Anyway we won, get healthy Matt.

Huh? He was nowhere near being pitiful. There's no end to this, I guess.

We definitely need a premiere QB, but we have Sage and Schaub to work with THIS season. I see a lot more mobility and patience from Sage than I do from Schaub. Sage's interception was on a jumped route (a timing throw to AJ on a slant)...it's not like he threw it to a Jags guy in the open field with no receiver around.

Sage managed the game, limited mistakes, and you guys still chew him out for it? That's what you wanted him to do, he does it, and he STILL can't even get a shred of decency out of ya'll? Sheesh....:thisbig:

mexican_texan
12-02-2008, 08:55 AM
Remember the play before the INT? The only one who had a chance at that one was wearing a white jersey. He comes back the next play and throws a bad pass to AJ that gets intercepted.

Hervoyel
12-02-2008, 09:00 AM
Huh? He was nowhere near being pitiful. There's no end to this, I guess.

We definitely need a premiere QB, but we have Sage and Schaub to work with THIS season. I see a lot more mobility and patience from Sage than I do from Schaub. Sage's interception was on a jumped route (a timing throw to AJ on a slant)...it's not like he threw it to a Jags guy in the open field with no receiver around.

Sage managed the game, limited mistakes, and you guys still chew him out for it? That's what you wanted him to do, he does it, and he STILL can't even get a shred of decency out of ya'll? Sheesh....:thisbig:

I disagree with you. I was cringing every time Sage dropped back to pass. He is in my opinion entirely useless at this point and the guy playing right now looks nothing like the one who we could have traded this past off-season for a draft pick. The guy was getting passes batted back into his face, throwing the ball consistenly behind his receivers, and while trying to throw it out of bounds he tossed a weak "wounded duck" that could have easily been picked off. He was generally demonstrating (again) that he doesn't even belong in a conversation about potential starting QB's.

I believe that Schaub is quite possible no better than a career backup but I'm still willing to entertain the thought that he has some upside and may put it together. I think the same cannot be said for Rosenchopper. He's not even a particularly good backup and needs to go after the season. We can upgrade that spot easily with minimal expense.

GP
12-02-2008, 09:38 AM
Remember the play before the INT? The only one who had a chance at that one was wearing a white jersey. He comes back the next play and throws a bad pass to AJ that gets intercepted.

Wasn't he trying to throwing it away, and was falling backward or throwing off his back foot? He wasn't trying to complete that pass, IMO. He was throwing it away and almost didn't get it high enough out of bounds...if that's the one you're referencing.

I saw Sage ball-fake to Slaton, roll out and zing it to the open man a lot last night: Got away from center quickly, had great footwork as he rolled out, and put the ball where it needed to be. I didn't cringe when Sage threw the ball. He also didn't hang AJ out to dry with passes that get him hammered by DBs, like Schaub does. I will say, though, that Schaub utilizes OD more than Sage does.

You guys are rolling up all of your snap-by-snap expectations (or lack thereof) in Sage based upon the Colts game. Matt Schaub has made some pretty freaking stupid decisions, too (San Diego game last year with back-to-back picks to Cromartie), but people's noses are still firmly up his rear to this day.

LOL. I knew beforehand that we'd win the game, which meant that Sage would not brain-fart it away. And I'd say 90% of ya'll, or more, felt the same way: You knew this game was in the bag. But it's like this: Screw it, we're still going to find a way to rag on Sage.

I'm not saying, I'm just saying...

GP
12-02-2008, 09:42 AM
I disagree with you. I was cringing every time Sage dropped back to pass. He is in my opinion entirely useless at this point and the guy playing right now looks nothing like the one who we could have traded this past off-season for a draft pick. The guy was getting passes batted back into his face, throwing the ball consistenly behind his receivers, and while trying to throw it out of bounds he tossed a weak "wounded duck" that could have easily been picked off. He was generally demonstrating (again) that he doesn't even belong in a conversation about potential starting QB's.

I believe that Schaub is quite possible no better than a career backup but I'm still willing to entertain the thought that he has some upside and may put it together. I think the same cannot be said for Rosenchopper. He's not even a particularly good backup and needs to go after the season. We can upgrade that spot easily with minimal expense.

I disagree. Matt Schaub has done jack squat. Period. If anybody deserves to be put under fire, it's the guy who looks like the neighborhood sickly kid whose momma won't let him go outside and play with the other kids.

Matt Schaub is done. He's done because he is a walking injury report.

Holding out hope for Boo Radley while slamming the Sage, endlessly, for finally managing a game (the thing that ya'll said you wanted him to do: "Just manage the game, SAGE!, don't try to be hero") is puzzling.

We have Sage and Schaub THIS season. Hell, Sage is healthy and plays the game. Ya can't even say that about Matt. He's always getting hurt. Oh, but it's that pesky oline's fault. I keep forgetting.

I hope both of these QBs are gone at the end of the year.

Hooston Texan
12-02-2008, 10:04 AM
The coaches completely lost confidence in Sage after the interception. The proof is in the playcalling near the goal-line after the pick. Everything was either a running play, a screen or a short pass in front of the entire back 7. Absolutely no effot was made to throw the ball into the endzone. That caution was clearly the result of decisions from the sidelines.

After we scored on our first possession, we had exactly two sustained drives the rest of the game, and neither of those resulted in points. The first was the drive that ended in the botched field goal. The second was in the fourth quarter when we drove from our 5 to the Jags' 40 before punting. Nearly all the work on that second drive was done by Slaton (though Sage did make a nice pass to Daniels from the endzone).

Our last two TDs came on one-play "drives" against a defense that was clearly hitting the showers. We got one field goal without getting a first down and another was set up by a great punt return and then Slaton nearly housing a screen pass (followed by three consecutive runs into the line). The other FG was on a drive that covered all of 28 yards that was set up by Reeves' pick.

Yes, Sage managed this game into the win column, but I cannot see how anyone can take this game as evidence that he is better than Schaub. I respect the fact that some think Schaub may not be the answer, but if the defense and special teams played like this in Schaub's games, his won-loss record would look much, much better. Heck, if the defense played even half this good in the first Jacksonville game, we'd have blasted the Jags into the Atlantic.

infantrycak
12-02-2008, 10:21 AM
Heck, if the defense played even half this good in the first Jacksonville game, we'd have blasted the Jags into the Atlantic.

Yup--there is the great fallacy of examining only the win loss record. One stop on 4th and 8 and the L goes to a W and neither QB was on the field for the play.

GP
12-02-2008, 11:10 AM
The coaches completely lost confidence in Sage after the interception. The proof is in the playcalling near the goal-line after the pick. Everything was either a running play, a screen or a short pass in front of the entire back 7. Absolutely no effot was made to throw the ball into the endzone. That caution was clearly the result of decisions from the sidelines.

After we scored on our first possession, we had exactly two sustained drives the rest of the game, and neither of those resulted in points. The first was the drive that ended in the botched field goal. The second was in the fourth quarter when we drove from our 5 to the Jags' 40 before punting. Nearly all the work on that second drive was done by Slaton (though Sage did make a nice pass to Daniels from the endzone).

Our last two TDs came on one-play "drives" against a defense that was clearly hitting the showers. We got one field goal without getting a first down and another was set up by a great punt return and then Slaton nearly housing a screen pass (followed by three consecutive runs into the line). The other FG was on a drive that covered all of 28 yards that was set up by Reeves' pick.

Yes, Sage managed this game into the win column, but I cannot see how anyone can take this game as evidence that he is better than Schaub. I respect the fact that some think Schaub may not be the answer, but if the defense and special teams played like this in Schaub's games, his won-loss record would look much, much better. Heck, if the defense played even half this good in the first Jacksonville game, we'd have blasted the Jags into the Atlantic.

I agree with all of that, but here's the twist:

Smart players, and smart coaches, limit the risk-taking. If we were down by a TD, the playcalling would be opened up a lot more for the QB. I mean, crap, maybe Kubiak IS learning something all of a sudden!

1. Our defense pretty much manhandled the Jags. So from that standpoint, as a head coach, I might be thinking this: Let's not screw this up.

2. That leads a coach to grab his QB and say to him: Look, do you see what I see? We're running all over them on the ground (And Slaton made sure Kubiak knew this). Their offense is not getting anywhere all game long. This game is in the bag as long as we command field position and grab whatever in the hell is given to us. Got it? Good.

(By the way, I think this also explains why we punted instead of a long field goal try...a block and potential runback for a TD would not have been good)

3. Sage goes out and does what's asked of him: He manages the game, and the result is a win.

I thought wins, not losses, was the desired result here. So what if the QB was handcuffed. He followed orders, and we won. When the other team is limping, you just limit your own risk taking. Because the only thing that's going to help the Jags last night was us handing them things.

You guys all moaned for Sage to manage a game and to not lose it for the team. He did that, but damn him anyway. Very puzzling.

I guess a win is a win only when Matt "His Majesty" Schaub is the QB.

Hervoyel
12-02-2008, 11:15 AM
I agree with all of that, but here's the twist:

Smart players, and smart coaches, limit the risk-taking. If we were down by a TD, the playcalling would be opened up a lot more for the QB. I mean, crap, maybe Kubiak IS learning something all of a sudden!

1. Our defense pretty much manhandled the Jags. So from that standpoint, as a head coach, I might be thinking this: Let's not screw this up.

2. That leads a coach to grab his QB and say to him: Look, do you see what I see? We're running all over them on the ground (And Slaton made sure Kubiak knew this). Their offense is not getting anywhere all game long. This game is in the bag as long as we command field position and grab whatever in the hell is given to us. Got it? Good.

(By the way, I think this also explains why we punted instead of a long field goal try...a block and potential runback for a TD would not have been good)

3. Sage goes out and does what's asked of him: He manages the game, and the result is a win.

I thought wins, not losses, was the desired result here. So what if the QB was handcuffed. He followed orders, and we won. When the other team is limping, you just limit your own risk taking. Because the only thing that's going to help the Jags last night was us handing them things.

You guys all moaned for Sage to manage a game and to not lose it for the team. He did that, but damn him anyway. Very puzzling.

I guess a win is a win only when Matt "His Majesty" Schaub is the QB.

Sage won't do that unless Kubiak literally sits on him and keeps him from trying to play beyond his ability. Sage is the most dangerous man on the field in any Texans game because he's a marginal backup QB "game manager" who thinks he's Brett friggin Favre.

Additionally I've never been a Sage fan and have always thought he was reckless.

GP
12-02-2008, 11:25 AM
Sage won't do that unless Kubiak literally sits on him and keeps him from trying to play beyond his ability. Sage is the most dangerous man on the field in any Texans game because he's a marginal backup QB "game manager" who thinks he's Brett friggin Favre.

Additionally I've never been a Sage fan and have always thought he was reckless.

Players have those "Ah-Hah!" moments in their careers, times when they finally understood or somhow finally grasped what had been so cloudy before the ah-hah! moment.

I wonder if Sage's moment was the Colts game? Because he looked more restrained in the past two games. It looked, to me, like the second half was definitely a time of making sure Sage just managed the game and nothing else. The Ravens game was so weird because it looked like everyone was in a daze, to me.

David Carr was asked to manage the game from the opening kickoff. LOL.

We need a legit QB in the worst way. Getting rid of David Carr was only Phase 1 of the plan, and Phase 2 needs to be the outright total investment of time, energy, and money in trying to draft a franchise QB. No more duct tape and bailing wire.

threetoedpete
12-02-2008, 11:37 AM
Remember the play before the INT? The only one who had a chance at that one was wearing a white jersey. He comes back the next play and throws a bad pass to AJ that gets intercepted.

I pointed this out last week. The throw on the interception was two feet too low and eight feet behind A.J. Doesn't happen a lot...but there is a problem here. What it is is not the question. The question is can they fix it. After three weeks the answer is no. And I gotta believe that MS was window dressing. He wasn't ready. All the jumping around in the booth that Andre Ware did last night about not throwing down the Field....you're down to one loose canon and a gimpy guy, you protect the loose canon and save the gimpy guy. That is why they were desperate to run the foot ball and not go down the feild.

I liked the wild cat... a lot. Didn't work , but I hope they don't give up on it.

One more little diddy I want on the record....all of the push offs we've seen over the last eleven games on our Cbs...to call David Anderson out who is probably 185 pounds soaking wet...and coupled with the mugging that Andre Johnson received all night long....just mind boggling that they'd call that push off on him.

I've thought for a while that the officials are guessing at a lot of these calls. The game's speed is passing them by. Younger more athletic please, Mr. Goodell.

Wolf
12-02-2008, 11:45 AM
Sage won't do that unless Kubiak literally sits on him and keeps him from trying to play beyond his ability. Sage is the most dangerous man on the field in any Texans game because he's a marginal backup QB "game manager" who thinks he's Brett friggin Favre.

Additionally I've never been a Sage fan and have always thought he was reckless.

well TexanTalk sports just received an anounumous tip from an unnamed source of Herv and Sage talking at halftime of a Texan's game sometime a few weeks ago at a undisclosed location :joker:

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/3439/topgun.gif

Hooston Texan
12-02-2008, 12:26 PM
You guys all moaned for Sage to manage a game and to not lose it for the team. He did that, but damn him anyway. Very puzzling.

I guess a win is a win only when Matt "His Majesty" Schaub is the QB.

We were "moaning" after Sage single-handedly tanked the Colts game. Then he tried to do the same thing again just last week against Cleveland--two picks in the second half when you are leading is just inexcusable. Even the gunslingers know that you cannot have turnovers like that when you're winning late in a game.

(In my mind, all turnovers are not created equally. Situations dictate when it is more acceptable to take chances. Take, for example, the Baltimore game. Sage's first pick was awful--an interception at the goalline in a 7-0 game. Threw away sure points. But I can give him more of a pass on his last three picks--they all came in the second half with the team trailing by at least 2 scores. In his historic collapse against the Colts, the two fumbles were far worse than the pick because they came with us leading.)

Sage may have the ability to be a full-fledged QB, but his decision-making has forced the Texans to stick the game-manager yoke on him. They did so emphatically last night and notched a W for their efforts.

But this team isn't good enough to win consistently with a game-manager at QB. We need a QB to make aggressive plays in the passing game. When healthy, Schaub has done that for us--we had the best intermediate passing game in the league after the first two games until he went down. He did struggle against the two best defenses in the league the first two games, but he was close to lights-out after that until Jared Allen started diving for his knee.

I get that you don't like Schaub. But if he can stay healthy and hang onto the ball in the pocket (two things he has yet to prove, I agree), he's going to be a very good QB for a long time.

Jackie Chiles
12-02-2008, 12:35 PM
Huh? He was nowhere near being pitiful. There's no end to this, I guess.

We definitely need a premiere QB, but we have Sage and Schaub to work with THIS season. I see a lot more mobility and patience from Sage than I do from Schaub. Sage's interception was on a jumped route (a timing throw to AJ on a slant)...it's not like he threw it to a Jags guy in the open field with no receiver around.

Sage managed the game, limited mistakes, and you guys still chew him out for it? That's what you wanted him to do, he does it, and he STILL can't even get a shred of decency out of ya'll? Sheesh....:thisbig:

He made some throws like any NFL QB will do throughout the course of a game but his early decision making and recent history with turnovers changed the way Kubiak called this game. The throw before his INT was absolutely awful, he almost gift-wrapped it for the defense. I remember thinking to myself how hopefully that got a bad throw out of his system but then he must have decided where he wanted to go with the next throw before the play even started and Mathis was ready.

After Slaton's big catch do you really think Kubiak wanted to run the ball 3 times like that? I bet it killed him but it was absolutely the right call. Our defense got the offense the ball on in Jaguar territory so many times in the first half, Jacksonville literally rolled over for us and we waited until the 2nd half to finally put a nail in their coffin.

Sage definitely has played well for us in the past but that was pretty much entirely last year. I don't know if Matt is going to work out for us in the long term but I know that he at least has a chance to. With all the holes on the defense I don't see how we can spend a premium pick on a QB or go after some pricey FA. Even with the QB troubles of both Sage and Matt we can be productive on offense, we have to get the same type of production on defense and become more balanced like we have the last two games.

GP
12-02-2008, 01:33 PM
We were "moaning" after Sage single-handedly tanked the Colts game. Then he tried to do the same thing again just last week against Cleveland--two picks in the second half when you are leading is just inexcusable. Even the gunslingers know that you cannot have turnovers like that when you're winning late in a game.

(In my mind, all turnovers are not created equally. Situations dictate when it is more acceptable to take chances. Take, for example, the Baltimore game. Sage's first pick was awful--an interception at the goalline in a 7-0 game. Threw away sure points. But I can give him more of a pass on his last three picks--they all came in the second half with the team trailing by at least 2 scores. In his historic collapse against the Colts, the two fumbles were far worse than the pick because they came with us leading.)

Sage may have the ability to be a full-fledged QB, but his decision-making has forced the Texans to stick the game-manager yoke on him. They did so emphatically last night and notched a W for their efforts.

But this team isn't good enough to win consistently with a game-manager at QB. We need a QB to make aggressive plays in the passing game. When healthy, Schaub has done that for us--we had the best intermediate passing game in the league after the first two games until he went down. He did struggle against the two best defenses in the league the first two games, but he was close to lights-out after that until Jared Allen started diving for his knee.

I get that you don't like Schaub. But if he can stay healthy and hang onto the ball in the pocket (two things he has yet to prove, I agree), he's going to be a very good QB for a long time.

Well, the last statement there (that I bolded) sinks your whole theory.

Schaub will not stay healthy. It's like clockwork. So none of the hopes and wishes for him to become the guy we thought he could be is going to matter.

And if Sage is this horribly detestable backup QB who should be banished to Siberia for the rest of his life, then we ought to at least be a little mindful that Matt Schaub has done absolutely Jack Crap, as well.

I don't care the "hows" or the "whys," the guy is fragile. And you don't get a 3-yard 360-degree halo around you when you play QB in the NFL.

This isn't that hard to figure out: We don't HAVE a starting QB. At all. Yet.

ReliantTexan
12-02-2008, 02:48 PM
I agree with all of that, but here's the twist:

Smart players, and smart coaches, limit the risk-taking. If we were down by a TD, the playcalling would be opened up a lot more for the QB. I mean, crap, maybe Kubiak IS learning something all of a sudden!

1. Our defense pretty much manhandled the Jags. So from that standpoint, as a head coach, I might be thinking this: Let's not screw this up.

2. That leads a coach to grab his QB and say to him: Look, do you see what I see? We're running all over them on the ground (And Slaton made sure Kubiak knew this). Their offense is not getting anywhere all game long. This game is in the bag as long as we command field position and grab whatever in the hell is given to us. Got it? Good.

(By the way, I think this also explains why we punted instead of a long field goal try...a block and potential runback for a TD would not have been good)

3. Sage goes out and does what's asked of him: He manages the game, and the result is a win.

I thought wins, not losses, was the desired result here. So what if the QB was handcuffed. He followed orders, and we won. When the other team is limping, you just limit your own risk taking. Because the only thing that's going to help the Jags last night was us handing them things.

You guys all moaned for Sage to manage a game and to not lose it for the team. He did that, but damn him anyway. Very puzzling.

I guess a win is a win only when Matt "His Majesty" Schaub is the QB. I just wonder why you didn't have this same attitude when Schaub pulled off that three game win streak, in which he had one of the best months of any QB in the league? All I heard from most was, "It was against crappy teams, let's see him against a real defense" etc. But sage goes out against a struggling Jags team and just because he doesn't single-handedly blow the game, it's considered a great performance.

BuffaloglennTX
12-02-2008, 04:00 PM
Well, the last statement there (that I bolded) sinks your whole theory.

Schaub will not stay healthy. It's like clockwork. So none of the hopes and wishes for him to become the guy we thought he could be is going to matter.

And if Sage is this horribly detestable backup QB who should be banished to Siberia for the rest of his life, then we ought to at least be a little mindful that Matt Schaub has done absolutely Jack Crap, as well.

I don't care the "hows" or the "whys," the guy is fragile. And you don't get a 3-yard 360-degree halo around you when you play QB in the NFL.
This isn't that hard to figure out: We don't HAVE a starting QB. At all. Yet.

You may want to look at the list of starting quarterbacks who have gone down this year before you assume Schaub is fragile. A separated shoulder and torn knee ligament? Sure, maybe Schaub's ligament is not as strong as Tom Brady's. Oh wait, Tom's got torn too and he missed the whole year. Maybe Schaub's shoulder is weak; oh wait, he got pancaked by 340 pound Haynesworth.

Schaub has the potential to be very good and still has to prove it. Sage is Sage; a good backup in the NFL.

The1ApplePie
12-02-2008, 09:55 PM
Great the Sage vs. Schaub debate

They both suck, end of story

Both are career backups that look better on the bench than the field

The only differnce between them and Alex Smith or JT O'Sullivan is they have the best WR in the NFL to bail them out

GNTLEWOLF
12-03-2008, 01:34 AM
You may want to look at the list of starting quarterbacks who have gone down this year before you assume Schaub is fragile. A separated shoulder and torn knee ligament? Sure, maybe Schaub's ligament is not as strong as Tom Brady's. Oh wait, Tom's got torn too and he missed the whole year. Maybe Schaub's shoulder is weak; oh wait, he got pancaked by 340 pound Haynesworth.

Schaub has the potential to be very good and still has to prove it. Sage is Sage; a good backup in the NFL.

I could not pass up a comment on this. I have made it known in the past that in my opinion, Sage is and always will be at best a back-up QB. I am not on his bandwagon whatsoever....but I am really having trouble with all the folks who believe Matt will be our QB, or may be our QB...all he needs is to be given a chance. How many seasons has he been on the team (notice I didn't say played)? How many complete seasons has he under his belt as the starter..where he actually played? (hint: begins with "ze" and ends with "ro") I know, I know he has always been put out with a cheap shot. Poor little Matt the only QB in the league who has been hit with cheap shots. I know that Brady is out...how many seasons has Brady actually played and been hit countless times without going down? What other QB's in the league are injured more than they play? Maybe McNabb, some seasons ;there may be others. I just don't see Schaub as being durable enough to ever get the chance to prove his worth. I don't know if he is a franchise QB or not and I have my doubts that any of us will ever get to find out. How many next years are we going to give Matt to play a complete season before we finally say he has durability issues? Next Year? another after that? I was willing to wait and see after this season, but he is once again out. I know he will be back probably for the GB game. I hope he does well. But what if he gets re-injured? Anyway, I have doubts... and I hope this team doesn't make the Carr mistake again before we draft someone to develop.( BTW I was one of those idiots who believed David was o.k., it was just the O-line..... We all saw how that turned out.)

BuffaloglennTX
12-03-2008, 06:38 AM
[/B]

I could not pass up a comment on this. I have made it known in the past that in my opinion, Sage is and always will be at best a back-up QB. I am not on his bandwagon whatsoever....but I am really having trouble with all the folks who believe Matt will be our QB, or may be our QB...all he needs is to be given a chance. How many seasons has he been on the team (notice I didn't say played)? How many complete seasons has he under his belt as the starter..where he actually played? (hint: begins with "ze" and ends with "ro") I know, I know he has always been put out with a cheap shot. Poor little Matt the only QB in the league who has been hit with cheap shots. I know that Brady is out...how many seasons has Brady actually played and been hit countless times without going down? What other QB's in the league are injured more than they play? Maybe McNabb, some seasons ;there may be others. I just don't see Schaub as being durable enough to ever get the chance to prove his worth. I don't know if he is a franchise QB or not and I have my doubts that any of us will ever get to find out. How many next years are we going to give Matt to play a complete season before we finally say he has durability issues? Next Year? another after that? I was willing to wait and see after this season, but he is once again out. I know he will be back probably for the GB game. I hope he does well. But what if he gets re-injured? Anyway, I have doubts... and I hope this team doesn't make the Carr mistake again before we draft someone to develop.( BTW I was one of those idiots who believed David was o.k., it was just the O-line..... We all saw how that turned out.)

I hear what you are saying, but Matt has not been out for broken pinkies. It's been a separated shoulder and torn knee ligaments. I don't know too many qb's who play through those, do you? If you are saying he is more prone to these types of injuries than most other quarterbacks, there is only one way to find that out and that is by giving him more than two seasons. He's been a Texan for less than two seasons, not ten like McNabb, Manning, etc. I do agree with you that someone should be drafted to develop, if for no other reason that Sage will likely not be the backup after 2009 when his contract expires.

GP
12-03-2008, 08:32 AM
I just wonder why you didn't have this same attitude when Schaub pulled off that three game win streak, in which he had one of the best months of any QB in the league? All I heard from most was, "It was against crappy teams, let's see him against a real defense" etc. But sage goes out against a struggling Jags team and just because he doesn't single-handedly blow the game, it's considered a great performance.

Schaub put up great numbers against teams that couldn't hurry him. Someone else has said it on here, and I can't remember who, but it goes like this: The book is out on Schaub, all you have to do is get pressure on him and get near him and he crumbles. The guy cannot perform unless he has a 360-degree, 3-yard halo around him.

His footwork is awful, which then starts a series of dominoes that fall one after another: He can't get away from the pressure in time to establish his feet in order to throw a good ball, and then his progressions are all screwed up and the DBs have adjusted to the WRs by the time he CAN throw the ball.

This really doesn't have to be an argument. We have two backup QBs. The difference is that we spent two consecutive 2nd round draft picks for one of those backup QBs.

It's not my fault if some people want to drink Kool Aid, put on Battle Red glasses, and pray/hope/wish that Schaub will turn out to be the QB he was thought to be when we acquired him. It was a strategic gamble with lots of upside, and it didn't work.

The guy is a good guy, a team player, unlike the previous #8 who was about himself. But it isn't going to work because the guy is just not gifted with the full assortment of skills and talents that an NFL QB needs. Brad Johnson with the Tampa Bay Bucs might be the only immobile QB that I can think of who succeeded despite his lack of mobility.

Hervoyel
12-03-2008, 08:42 AM
[/b]

I could not pass up a comment on this. I have made it known in the past that in my opinion, Sage is and always will be at best a back-up QB. I am not on his bandwagon whatsoever....but I am really having trouble with all the folks who believe Matt will be our QB, or may be our QB...all he needs is to be given a chance. How many seasons has he been on the team (notice I didn't say played)? How many complete seasons has he under his belt as the starter..where he actually played? (hint: begins with "ze" and ends with "ro") I know, I know he has always been put out with a cheap shot. Poor little Matt the only QB in the league who has been hit with cheap shots. I know that Brady is out...how many seasons has Brady actually played and been hit countless times without going down? What other QB's in the league are injured more than they play? Maybe McNabb, some seasons ;there may be others. I just don't see Schaub as being durable enough to ever get the chance to prove his worth. I don't know if he is a franchise QB or not and I have my doubts that any of us will ever get to find out. How many next years are we going to give Matt to play a complete season before we finally say he has durability issues? Next Year? another after that? I was willing to wait and see after this season, but he is once again out. I know he will be back probably for the GB game. I hope he does well. But what if he gets re-injured? Anyway, I have doubts... and I hope this team doesn't make the Carr mistake again before we draft someone to develop.( BTW I was one of those idiots who believed David was o.k., it was just the O-line..... We all saw how that turned out.)

Well, for each of us there's a point where we have to come to a conclusion. For some people he's already proven that he can't stay on the field and they're ready to start going in another direction right now. For others he's probably got more leeway to give. I personally believe that you can't hold a single injury shortened season against a player. Matt's first season here he took some serious shots and got hurt. It's one time so you say "that sucked" and plan for next season. This year he got sick and missed a game. That happens to a lot of guys in the league so it doesn't much factor into my decision but then he took the shots to the knee and missed four games. That got my attention. I think getting hurt one season is an isolated incident, two seasons is worthy of concern, and three seasons is time to start looking in another direction.

Now that's just me and other people disagree on that. I might be critical of Matt's durability if the injury had been in some way "freakish" or come out of nowhere but I saw the game and saw the licks he took to his knee. Most QB's get injured from those hits. I did not see it as something particular just to Matt Schaub. A lot of guys tear their MCL when hit like that. If he'd been sprinting around the line in a roll out and just collapsed in a pile because his knee blew I'd be very suspicious and probably talking about finding his replacement right now (cause Sage ain't it) but I think you go one more year on this. I think with a pair of 2's wrapped up in him (and let nobody kid themselves, his cost is going to factor into how much time he gets to try and make this work out) the Texans probably give him another year as well.

You are concerned that "poor little Matt" might get the Carr treatment and be given forever to prove that he's the guy but keep something in mind. Carr got an unbelievable 4 years to become the QB that the Texans wanted him to be and those were mostly years without injury. The Texans will have given Matt Schaub 2 years in 4 more weeks.

I think the team should go into next season with a better answer at backup than Rosenchopper because like I said 2 seasons of injuries is worriesome. I'd still go into 2009 with Schaub as my starter though.

Kaiser Toro
12-03-2008, 08:45 AM
His footwork is awful, which then starts a series of dominoes that fall one after another: He can't get away from the pressure in time to establish his feet in order to throw a good ball, and then his progressions are all screwed up and the DBs have adjusted to the WRs by the time he CAN throw the ball.


I would love for you to give us multiple instances of showing where his footwork is awful and his progressions are off, sans the direct aftermath of the Haynesoworth and Allen hits. I will not be holding my breath.

gtexan02
12-03-2008, 08:49 AM
Schaub put up great numbers against teams that couldn't hurry him. Someone else has said it on here, and I can't remember who, but it goes like this: The book is out on Schaub, all you have to do is get pressure on him and get near him and he crumbles.

Just to clarify, this is true for all QBs.

How did the Chargers beat the Colts a few years ago in the playoffs?
How did the Giants beat the Patriots last year?

The answer? Get pressure on the QB

No QB performs as well with guys in their face as they do when given a nice pocket. This isn't some kryptonite for Schaub, its true of all QBs

Texan Asylum
12-03-2008, 08:54 AM
Sorry if this is a repost - having not read the thread - but I think we should be actively looking for the QB of our future, starting immediately.

Schaub should be our number 2. He's played that role in the past rather well, and with the specter and consistency of injury always being an issue, perhaps that's the best spot for him.

He has proven to be very level headed in that position, and that's exactly what you need from a backup. Someone who won't make rash or impetuous decisions and choices when one's called upon to step up when needed. And that call necessarily wouldn't have to be confined to just cases of injury to the starter, but rather stepping in to close a game that's in the bag to save any potential injury to the starter.

IMHO, which is somewhat limited in extended football knowledge. :)

infantrycak
12-03-2008, 09:01 AM
Schaub put up great numbers against teams that couldn't hurry him. Someone else has said it on here, and I can't remember who, but it goes like this: The book is out on Schaub, all you have to do is get pressure on him and get near him and he crumbles. The guy cannot perform unless he has a 360-degree, 3-yard halo around him.

Is that your final answer?

Schaub has completed 71.7% of his passes when blitzed for a 9.2 ypa with 4 TD's, 2 INT's and a 108.5 QB rating.

Now that's just me and other people disagree on that. I might be critical of Matt's durability if the injury had been in some way "freakish" or come out of nowhere but I saw the game and saw the licks he took to his knee. Most QB's get injured from those hits. I did not see it as something particular just to Matt Schaub. A lot of guys tear their MCL when hit like that.

The thing that always gets me on these discussions is whether the injuries are repeated or similar. To me there is no relation between an MCL and a shoulder. Now keep having problems in the same way with repeated knee sprains, etc. like Green and I can see jumping on board the injury prone train.

I would love for you to give us multiple instances of showing where his footwork is awful and his progressions are off, sans the direct aftermath of the Haynesoworth and Allen hits. I will not be holding my breath.

Sign me up with KT for the examples.

GP
12-03-2008, 09:04 AM
I would love for you to give us multiple instances of showing where his footwork is awful and his progressions are off, sans the direct aftermath of the Haynesoworth and Allen hits. I will not be holding my breath.

When I saw you had posted a reply to my previous post, I didn't even have to read it...I knew it would be your "I'd love for you to give me an example" argument that you have thrown out there in the past. So now I will respond to it.

There is not a stat I can point to. It's pretty subjective...yet, all you have to do is watch Sage get away from center (specifically on the bootlegs, but on normal drop-backs, as well) and then watch Schaub. There IS a discernible difference. Even when the pocket is collapsing, you can see Sage keeping his balance and moving just a little in one direction, enough to buy some time. Matt starts hunching down, bracing for the hit, and he pumps the ball and does all sorts of little things instead of just sensing where to go to get away from the pressure.

I can't believe I might actually have to show you video evidence. This is the most important position on our team, it's a battle between two guys, and we certainly have enough games on both QBs to see this on our own without needing a Brian Baldinger video session on it.

I see a lot of people make posts that don't have a real "idea" behind their comments, it's an empty post. I am trying to say "Here's WHY I think Matt is not a good QB." Do I have to use my video editing software and roll up a side-by-side clip of the two QBs in order to show how Matt is slow getting away from center?

When we played the Titans last year, the dlinemen were to Schaub before he could even hit his last dropstep. Little things count against the good teams, which is why Schaub looked good against Bengals & Lions, very average against the Dolphins (needing a desperation pass to AJ, and a lucky guess on the QB keeper for the TD) and yet he gets hurt vs. good pass rushing teams.

I have noticed that Schaub had quickness and hustle getting away from center in his first 2 games that he played for us last year, I mean he was rocketing back with a furious pace on his dropbacks. And then it was weird...he started getting slower as the season wore on. He stopped making it a priority. And he started getting hurt. I think there's a connection.

You just can't trot back when you get the snap in today's NFL. Maybe it's OK vs. really bad teams, but I sense that we're no longer happy with beating up on teams equal-to or less-than us. Aren't we? Well, we're going to need a QB who can pass and stay alive despite what sort of defense we face.

People have mentioned Colt McCoy, if he'd even be available to us. I am definitely NOT a UT fan...but he's a younger, more mobile QB that I think is intriguing as an NFL QB. He has a lot of moxy and has played in big games on a big stage. We just need a legit QB, and I don't think Matt is going to matriculate into that role for us.

infantrycak
12-03-2008, 09:09 AM
There is not a stat I can point to. It's pretty subjective...yet, all you have to do is watch Sage get away from center (specifically on the bootlegs, but on normal drop-backs, as well) and then watch Schaub. There IS a discernible difference. Even when the pocket is collapsing, you can see Sage keeping his balance and moving just a little in one direction, enough to buy some time. Matt starts hunching down, bracing for the hit, and he pumps the ball and does all sorts of little things instead of just sensing where to go to get away from the pressure.

That's horse hockey. Schaub is very good at the small movements and is much more inclined to stay and take a big hit without flinching until after the release while Sage is more inclined to bolt the pocket.

Kaiser Toro
12-03-2008, 09:10 AM
Exhausting any dollars towards a new QB next year is shortsighted. The only dollars our team should be investing next year on the offense is on a C or short yardage back. Our defense is where we need to exhaust those dollars.

When we cannot control the line of scrimmage, on either side of the ball, in short yardage situations we must address this. We are the league's worst in giving up 1st downs on 4th down situations (90%) and on 3rd down we are amongst the league's worst. On offense we are ineffective in the Red Zone.

This is not a Carr situation, this is a trench warfare situation that we need to address immediately in my opinion.

Silver Oak
12-03-2008, 09:13 AM
Starting NFL qb's who have missed games due to injury in 2008. I'm winging this off of memory and NFL.com's position list, so correct me if I miss someone. I don't think Schaub is any more prone to injury that other qb's, but I guess time will tell. This list shows slightly less than 50%of qb's who held the starting position this season have missed time due to injury.

Derek Anderson
Tom Brady
Marc Bulger
Brodie Croyle
Trent Edwards
Jeff Garcia
Matt Leinart
Kyle Orton
Carson Palmer
Brady Quinn
Tony Romo
Matt Schaub
Alex Smith
Vince Young

GP
12-03-2008, 09:13 AM
Is that your final answer?

Schaub has completed 71.7% of his passes when blitzed for a 9.2 ypa with 4 TD's, 2 INT's and a 108.5 QB rating.

Does this include the times when he couldn't even get a pass away, getting sacked or running for no gain or for 1-yard or so? Complete vs. Incomplete doesn't show the whole story. That's on pass ATTEMPTS.

Plus, if he lobs one up to AJ and AJ breaks it off for big YAC, it skews the 9.2 ypa you're pointing to. What about the dump offs to RBs that go for no gain or for 1 yard, but it's skewed by a few longer catch-and-runs?

You guys throwing your lot in with a gimpy QB are going to be disappointed when the guy is right back on the bench. You don't need two seasons in the NFL to then turn around and say you need a third in order to show that you have what it takes.

This is fascinating, the depths to which you guys are going to absoutely WILL him to be the QB he can't be. You rag on the "start Sage" crowd, but man oh man...there's just as much going the other way, too.

I will work on some clips, see if I can get a side-by-side. I don't where I can post the video because I have been spanked by YouTube a year or so ago for posting some licensed Texans footage...but I will try since it's what is needed. I believe in it THAT much. But it will take time, probably will have it done by the time Matt is through recovering from his next injury that's going to happen.

Texan Asylum
12-03-2008, 09:14 AM
Exhausting any dollars towards a new QB next year is shortsighted. The only dollars our team should be investing next year on the offense is on a C or short yardage back. Our defense is where we need to exhaust those dollars.

When we cannot control the line of scrimmage, on either side of the ball, in short yardage situations we must address this. We are the league's worst in giving up 1st downs on 4th down situations (90%) and on 3rd down we are amongst the league's worst. On offense we are ineffective in the Red Zone.

This is not a Carr situation, this is a trench warfare situation that we need to address immediately in my opinion.

What you are saying is the situation with Schaub is a symptom of the problem, not necessarily THE problem. Have I read you right?

Makes sense to me.

mexican_texan
12-03-2008, 09:15 AM
When I saw you had posted a reply to my previous post, I didn't even have to read it...I knew it would be your "I'd love for you to give me an example" argument that you have thrown out there in the past. So now I will respond to it.

There is not a stat I can point to. It's pretty subjective...yet, all you have to do is watch Sage get away from center (specifically on the bootlegs, but on normal drop-backs, as well) and then watch Schaub. There IS a discernible difference. Even when the pocket is collapsing, you can see Sage keeping his balance and moving just a little in one direction, enough to buy some time. Matt starts hunching down, bracing for the hit, and he pumps the ball and does all sorts of little things instead of just sensing where to go to get away from the pressure.

I can't believe I might actually have to show you video evidence. This is the most important position on our team, it's a battle between two guys, and we certainly have enough games on both QBs to see this on our own without needing a Brian Baldinger video session on it.

I see a lot of people make posts that don't have a real "idea" behind their comments, it's an empty post. I am trying to say "Here's WHY I think Matt is not a good QB." Do I have to use my video editing software and roll up a side-by-side clip of the two QBs in order to show how Matt is slow getting away from center?

When we played the Titans last year, the dlinemen were to Schaub before he could even hit his last dropstep. Little things count against the good teams, which is why Schaub looked good against Bengals & Lions, very average against the Dolphins (needing a desperation pass to AJ, and a lucky guess on the QB keeper for the TD) and yet he gets hurt vs. good pass rushing teams.

I have noticed that Schaub had quickness and hustle getting away from center in his first 2 games that he played for us last year, I mean he was rocketing back with a furious pace on his dropbacks. And then it was weird...he started getting slower as the season wore on. He stopped making it a priority. And he started getting hurt. I think there's a connection.

You just can't trot back when you get the snap in today's NFL. Maybe it's OK vs. really bad teams, but I sense that we're no longer happy with beating up on teams equal-to or less-than us. Aren't we? Well, we're going to need a QB who can pass and stay alive despite what sort of defense we face.

People have mentioned Colt McCoy, if he'd even be available to us. I am definitely NOT a UT fan...but he's a younger, more mobile QB that I think is intriguing as an NFL QB. He has a lot of moxy and has played in big games on a big stage. We just need a legit QB, and I don't think Matt is going to matriculate into that role for us.
I'm with you on one thing, Schaub slowed down and seemed to me like he took too long to hand the ball off to the running backs.

HOU-TEX
12-03-2008, 09:17 AM
Is that your final answer?

Schaub has completed 71.7% of his passes when blitzed for a 9.2 ypa with 4 TD's, 2 INT's and a 108.5 QB rating.

The thing that always gets me on these discussions is whether the injuries are repeated or similar. To me there is no relation between an MCL and a shoulder. Now keep having problems in the same way with repeated knee sprains, etc. like Green and I can see jumping on board the injury prone train.

Sign me up with KT for the examples.

Good gravy, Cak. Where'd you get those numbers from? That's awesome!

GP
12-03-2008, 09:18 AM
That's horse hockey. Schaub is very good at the small movements and is much more inclined to stay and take a big hit without flinching until after the release while Sage is more inclined to bolt the pocket.

No, THAT is horse hockey. Schaub has been getting killed when he's trying to scramble. The guy doesn't know which way to move, and WHEN to move. People roll up on his legs ALL the freaking time, or they crunch him and drive him into the ground. It's kinda' why the guy has had a shoulder separation and a torn MCL. And it will happen. Again.

Kaiser Toro
12-03-2008, 09:18 AM
When I saw you had posted a reply to my previous post, I didn't even have to read it...I knew it would be your "I'd love for you to give me an example" argument that you have thrown out there in the past. So now I will respond to it.

There is not a stat I can point to. It's pretty subjective...yet, all you have to do is watch Sage get away from center (specifically on the bootlegs, but on normal drop-backs, as well) and then watch Schaub. There IS a discernible difference. Even when the pocket is collapsing, you can see Sage keeping his balance and moving just a little in one direction, enough to buy some time. Matt starts hunching down, bracing for the hit, and he pumps the ball and does all sorts of little things instead of just sensing where to go to get away from the pressure.

I can't believe I might actually have to show you video evidence. This is the most important position on our team, it's a battle between two guys, and we certainly have enough games on both QBs to see this on our own without needing a Brian Baldinger video session on it.

I see a lot of people make posts that don't have a real "idea" behind their comments, it's an empty post. I am trying to say "Here's WHY I think Matt is not a good QB." Do I have to use my video editing software and roll up a side-by-side clip of the two QBs in order to show how Matt is slow getting away from center?

When we played the Titans last year, the dlinemen were to Schaub before he could even hit his last dropstep. Little things count against the good teams, which is why Schaub looked good against Bengals & Lions, very average against the Dolphins (needing a desperation pass to AJ, and a lucky guess on the QB keeper for the TD) and yet he gets hurt vs. good pass rushing teams.

I have noticed that Schaub had quickness and hustle getting away from center in his first 2 games that he played for us last year, I mean he was rocketing back with a furious pace on his dropbacks. And then it was weird...he started getting slower as the season wore on. He stopped making it a priority. And he started getting hurt. I think there's a connection.

You just can't trot back when you get the snap in today's NFL. Maybe it's OK vs. really bad teams, but I sense that we're no longer happy with beating up on teams equal-to or less-than us. Aren't we? Well, we're going to need a QB who can pass and stay alive despite what sort of defense we face.

People have mentioned Colt McCoy, if he'd even be available to us. I am definitely NOT a UT fan...but he's a younger, more mobile QB that I think is intriguing as an NFL QB. He has a lot of moxy and has played in big games on a big stage. We just need a legit QB, and I don't think Matt is going to matriculate into that role for us.

I figured this would be your response. You can't point to any specific examples about Schaub. After he was hit by Haynesworth and Allen he did exhibit a lack of mobility, because he was injured and should have been taken out of the game. Since Schaub has been here our sack totals have fallen, our Offensive rankings have gone up meteorically, yet our ability to acquire the line to gain in short yardage situations and stop folks on defense in 3rd and 4th down situatuons are the problem.

QB is not the problem outside of spurned Carr homers who are looking for retribution due to the exorcism that was performed on their false idol by this board.

GP
12-03-2008, 09:31 AM
I figured this would be your response. You can't point to any specific examples about Schaub. After he was hit by Haynesworth and Allen he did exhibit a lack of mobility, because he was injured and should have been taken out of the game. Since Schaub has been here our sack totals have fallen, our Offensive rankings have gone up meteorically, yet our ability to acquire the line to gain in short yardage situations and stop folks on defense in 3rd and 4th down situatuons are the problem.

QB is not the problem outside of spurned Carr homers who are looking for retribution due to the exorcism that was performed on their false idol by this board.

Don't know why this is brought up, because it doesn't apply to me. Every time I try to say why I don't think Matt is the guy...the "Carr lover" card gets played. It's like you're throwing flares to shake the missile off.

I, too, thought that the oline was the problem and Carr needed a final season with Kubiak to see if he could make it. (Geez, how many times do I have to freaking say this?!?!?) But once I saw he was not a fit, I bailed and bailed HARD. Check my rants against his brother, Kaiser. I was screaming for that family to get the hell out of town.

But...that is PRECISELY why I have been objective when it comes to supporting the QB now. I liked what I saw from Matt in those first two games. I was verrry pleased. BUt by the Dolphins game last year, and you can check the history, I was off the train. He wasn't the same guy he was from the first two games. Then the injuries started. And they are still happening today.

LOL. Guys, the guy is not going to make it. Rag on Sage all you want, he's not Matt's problem(s). Matt has issues that go beyond Sage Rosenfels trying to steal Matt's rightful, God-ordained job. And Sage has issues that clearly keep him from earning a starting job.

I'm not a Carr lover. I am not a Sage lover. And I am obviously not a Schaub lover. I love this team, and the QB position needs help. Sage is a part of the reason the sacks were down last year: Schaub had 16 sacks in 11 games and Sage had 6 in 9. A two-game difference, yet a 10-sack difference.

Wolf
12-03-2008, 09:31 AM
Does this include the times when he couldn't even get a pass away, getting sacked or running for no gain or for 1-yard or so? Complete vs. Incomplete doesn't show the whole story. That's on pass ATTEMPTS.

Plus, if he lobs one up to AJ and AJ breaks it off for big YAC, it skews the 9.2 ypa you're pointing to. What about the dump offs to RBs that go for no gain or for 1 yard, but it's skewed by a few longer catch-and-runs?




Isn't that the price a team pays on blitzing.. they blitz and get to the QB or tor the blitzing team gets burned?

That happens to every teams QB this side of DC or maybe Brad Johnson or even a Richard Smith Defense

Trail.Blazr
12-03-2008, 09:31 AM
With Matt taking the snaps again with 4 remaining games, I am looking for something good out of him. I've been wanting to see good out of him since his arrival, but haven't... Not to the level I would hope for. One knock on him is definately his durability. Now there's nothing anyone can do about bums taking cheap shots at your knees, but the simple fact is he's consistently sidelined. And when he is on the field, I don't get the sense that he's going to evolve into an elite QB in this league. If you look at his W/L and his QB rating over his career and his time at Houston, statistically I see a backup QB.

While Houston's balance of needs seemingly weighs toward the defensive side of the ball, I don't see how the QB spot can be ignored going into the off season. The O-Line is very servicable. We are stacked at skill positions. The QB slot has everything one could ask for to be successful, yet if I look back on this season, I think of what could have been and question what would have been with an elite QB. I don't know who that might be going forward, but I must say I've seen enough of Matt to think it's probably not him. At what point does probably turn to definately? Not week 14, so I'm still pulling for him, but I really think he better show something to convince me otherwise by season's end. It's too critical a position to settle for mediocrity.

infantrycak
12-03-2008, 09:32 AM
Does this include the times when he couldn't even get a pass away, getting sacked or running for no gain or for 1-yard or so? Complete vs. Incomplete doesn't show the whole story. That's on pass ATTEMPTS.

Yes those are included. 4 sacks on blitzes. 0 attempts at rushing. In other words, there have only been 4 times he hasn't gotten the ball off when blitzed and the great majority of the time it has been for a completion.

Plus, if he lobs one up to AJ and AJ breaks it off for big YAC, it skews the 9.2 ypa you're pointing to. What about the dump offs to RBs that go for no gain or for 1 yard, but it's skewed by a few longer catch-and-runs?

Oh, so now we are dealing with what ifs? You asserted he sucked when pressured. Beyond the no duh factor that every QB hates being pressured, the reality of the situation is blitzing Schaub is more likely to get you burned as both his % completion and ypa go UP.

You guys throwing your lot in with a gimpy QB are going to be disappointed when the guy is right back on the bench.

I am disappointed whenever a Texans' chosen starter goes down. Not too sure about you.

You don't need two seasons in the NFL to then turn around and say you need a third in order to show that you have what it takes.

Like I said above to Herv, completely independent of Schaub (and I have said this on multiple prior non-Schaub occasions) I simply do not believe multiple non-related injuries makes a player injury prone. In Schaub's particular case, I particularly do not believe it when the officials of this violent game have decided 3 of 4 hits have been on illegal plays.

No, THAT is horse hockey. Schaub has been getting killed when he's trying to scramble. The guy doesn't know which way to move, and WHEN to move. People roll up on his legs ALL the freaking time, or they crunch him and drive him into the ground. It's kinda' why the guy has had a shoulder separation and a torn MCL. And it will happen. Again.

What that indicates is not poor pocket presence. It reflects his willingness to stay with the play to the last moment and take the hit.

This is fascinating, the depths to which you guys are going to absoutely WILL him to be the QB he can't be.

So to translate, any disagreement with you, regardless of the facts constitutes willing Schaub to be the QB?--not.

Fact is, all this is pissing into the wind. Regardless of what you or I think Schaub will be the starting QB next year. But on the bright side, you won't need a new rant for next year.

GP
12-03-2008, 09:36 AM
You guys can try and burn me down, that's fine. I will not sit here all day and repay each post against me. I think those who are watching will see that I am coming from an objective standpoint, instead of trying to protect a certain QB from criticisms.

The oline only needs help in the area of a beefier run blocker in the middle. I think the pass blocking is sufficient to allow a legit QB to do his job. It isn't perfect, but neither is any oline in the game today.

I still stand firm: Schaub isn't "it," and we better not let next year go by without raising up another QB to be groomed for year 5.

ATXtexanfan
12-03-2008, 09:40 AM
Well he does have games against 2 solid teams and one great one. Would be nice to see him play well. I'm still on the fence with him, he'll get another year but we need a backup plan with sage getting up there in years. It's so hard to find a qb.

Wolf
12-03-2008, 09:51 AM
I don't know if Matt has "IT" or not.. all I know is we have a top 10 offense and could be better with our QB's not turning the ball over so much and if we can improve our red zone offense.VIA help of a big bruising back and an offensive lineman or two..

Our Defense needs the priority right now,with coaching and a few upgrades in a few spots

Trail.Blazr
12-03-2008, 10:03 AM
Well he does have games against 2 solid teams and one great one. Would be nice to see him play well. I'm still on the fence with him, he'll get another year but we need a backup plan with sage getting up there in years. It's so hard to find a qb.

give him another year... so hard to find a qb..

What does another year do? I can recall Tom Brady getting his first crack because Bledsoe went down. Brady takes that team from obscurity to dynasty. Kurt Warner is bagging groceries one minute and winning the Superbowl MVP the next. They aren't projects at this level.. They are opportunities. Give it to them.. if it doesn't pan out, move on. Don't make it a 5 year fiasco. We dont' need a backup plan.. We already are at the "backup" plan. Schaub is a very servicable backup. Sage too. We need a move forward plan!

GP
12-03-2008, 10:09 AM
I don't know if Matt has "IT" or not.. all I know is we have a top 10 offense and could be better with our QB's not turning the ball over so much and if we can improve our red zone offense.VIA help of a big bruising back and an offensive lineman or two..

Our Defense needs the priority right now,with coaching and a few upgrades in a few spots

I agree on those points. If we spend heavy on defense, though, it has to be with the intent of getting a new DC. I could put all the ingredients for a gourmet meal in front of my 8-year-old daughter...but could she make it a great dinner? We have to get a competent d-coord AND more firepower on defense in the draft and free agency. Can Kubiak get a new DC? if he doesn't, yikes.

Kubiak's Year 4 (next season) needs to be the grooming process for a QB to start in Kubiak's year 5. It's not a slam at Schaub. He'd have had three seasons to prove his worth. Lots of teams draft a guy (like Kevin Kolb) and sit him for a year or two, and the current starting QB just has to be OK with that.

Who knows, we might be able to trade the new guy for two 2nd round draft picks in 2011.

Maddict5
12-03-2008, 11:01 AM
im not fully convinced yet but im leaning towards schaub as our guy..

hes needs a couple good games against dominant D's to eliminate any doubts

b0ng
12-03-2008, 11:07 AM
Thread about Schaub? Check.
GP in the thread bitching about how we don't give Sage enough respect? Check.
Making points that apply to Schaub (Crumbles under pressure) but not to Sage (Crumbles no matter what)? Check.

This thread in itself is pretty priceless.

michaelm
12-03-2008, 11:12 AM
Hey, if Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson can win Superbowls, we can win one with Schaub. IMO.
But, as was stated before, we need to do something about getting control of the trenches.

Trail.Blazr
12-03-2008, 11:42 AM
Hey, if Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson can win Superbowls, we can win one with Schaub. IMO.
But, as was stated before, we need to do something about getting control of the trenches.

Dilfer and Johnson won with their D, more than their arm.

Texans don't come close to the Defenses their teams had.

The Texans are more comparible to the likes of the 2002 Rams minus an MVP QB than they are comparible to the Ravens/Bucs you speak of.

You give me a better QB, and a few upgrades on D, I give you the Greatest Show on Turf II (minus the turf)

Hooston Texan
12-03-2008, 08:39 PM
I agree on those points. If we spend heavy on defense, though, it has to be with the intent of getting a new DC. I could put all the ingredients for a gourmet meal in front of my 8-year-old daughter...but could she make it a great dinner? We have to get a competent d-coord AND more firepower on defense in the draft and free agency. Can Kubiak get a new DC? if he doesn't, yikes.


I'm in complete agreement with this paragraph.

On Schaub, I'm willing to simply agree to disagree.