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CloakNNNdagger
11-28-2008, 03:25 PM
The Houston Texans, despite consistently lurking at the bottom of the barrel in so many aspects of the NFL, are one of the top valuated teams in the NFL.

What does this tell you about..........

...............Our fans?

...............Our investment vs. returns versus our owner's

...............Our owner's business sense vs calculated intents?

Texan_Bill
11-28-2008, 03:27 PM
The Houston Texans, despite consistently lurking at the bottom of the barrel in so many aspects of the NFL, are one of the top valuated teams in the NFL.

What does this tell you about..........

...............Our fans?

...............Our investment vs. returns versus our owner's

...............Our owner's business sense vs calculated intents?

The Texans did slip this year from 4th in previous years to 5th this year. I beleive it's printed in Forbes.

mexican_texan
11-28-2008, 03:34 PM
The Houston Texans, despite consistently lurking at the bottom of the barrel in so many aspects of the NFL, are one of the top valuated teams in the NFL.

What does this tell you about..........

...............Our fans?

...............Our investment vs. returns versus our owner's

...............Our owner's business sense vs calculated intents?
A stable team with a stable organization in a major market. Houston also happens to be like the 4th or 5th biggest cities in the US.

utahmark
11-28-2008, 03:55 PM
i think a lot of it has to do with a new fairly new stadium.

Texan_Bill
11-28-2008, 03:55 PM
i think a lot of it has to do with a new fairly new stadium.

yep.....

Insideop
11-28-2008, 04:05 PM
A stable team with a stable organization in a major market. Houston also happens to be like the 4th or 5th biggest cities in the US.

Houston is the 4th largest city in the US :thisbig: and closing in on Chicago (#3). Maybe we catch them by the next census in 2010!

steelbtexan
11-28-2008, 04:19 PM
It tells me

1. We are great, loyal, fans. We put our money where our mouths are.
2. The owner needs to spend the money now that we have the cap room. Our loyalty only goes so far.

Fire Bobby Greir & hire someone who can identify & sign 2 or 3 impact FA's

Double Barrel
11-28-2008, 04:28 PM
What does this tell you????????..................

Houston Texans fans are suckers, and Bob McNair is a very rich man. :victory:

I say this with no malice in my heart as I continue to look for ways to keep paying for my own season ticket in the face of an ever-shrinking personal budget.

The1ApplePie
11-28-2008, 04:35 PM
Houston Texans fans are suckers, and Bob McNair is a very rich man. :victory:

I say this with no malice in my heart as I continue to look for ways to keep paying for my own season ticket in the face of an ever-shrinking personal budget.

Honestly, if you wanted to get rid of them, they probably wouldn't be worth much.

The sellouts have been basically thanks to ticket brokers for years now, so that always bumps up the income. Same with being a major market team and a new stadium.

mexican_texan
11-28-2008, 05:07 PM
Houston Texans fans are suckers, and Bob McNair is a very rich man. :victory:

I say this with no malice in my heart as I continue to look for ways to keep paying for my own season ticket in the face of an ever-shrinking personal budget.
HDTV's are pretty nice and cheaper too. I just got one for $125.

mexican_texan
11-28-2008, 05:08 PM
Houston is the 4th largest city in the US :thisbig: and closing in on Chicago (#3). Maybe we catch them by the next census in 2010!
In all honesty, we're probably closer to 2 or 3. The census doesn't count everyone

Showtime100
11-28-2008, 05:26 PM
HDTV's are pretty nice and cheaper too. I just got one for $125.

Where? I don't have HD and would love to join the 21st century.

Specnatz
11-28-2008, 05:44 PM
Houston Texans fans are suckers, and Bob McNair is a very rich man. :victory:

I say this with no malice in my heart as I continue to look for ways to keep paying for my own season ticket in the face of an ever-shrinking personal budget.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10971156 - Mostly teams with either long history in the NFL or teams with new stadiums.

Yeah Texans fans are suckers, or is it just those that go to games? Seems like malice to me that you call everyone who buys anything Texans related a sucker for supporting the team. By the way you have to be a very rich person to own any sports related franchise. Be it football, baseball, or basketball. He did chunk down $800 mil or so to get the NFL back in Houston. He has hired guys like Casserly wo at the time, right or wrong, were respected in their profession to help build the team. He knows business not scouting players. He cares about Houston and having a team in there, not about having a 3-4 defense or a 4-3. So why the shot at him for being rich? If he was middle class we would not have the Houston Texans, it would be the LA whatchamacallits.

I mean not supporting them does wonders for putting a winning team on the field like Jacksonville and Detroit has shown. At least our owner is not Al Davis or Dan Snyder.

I am as disappointed in the team as anyone, mostly the defense this year but showing such disdain for the owner I do not. Rick Smith is the GM, it is time he put his stamp on the team and show that he is in-charge and do what is right. Why not show anger towards him not getting rid of Bobby Grier and Dale Strahm.

Sorry DB but I take your post differently.

steelbtexan
11-28-2008, 06:33 PM
Spec

Because Mr. McNair may not know football but a blind man can see that D. Smith, Greir, Riley & Hoke need to be fired & They have been hear since 2002. Exclude D. Smith.

He understands money & the only way to get through to him is the bottom line.

I think that if he wasn't scared of a season ticket holder revolt Casserly & Capers would still have a job.

Texans_Chick
11-28-2008, 06:54 PM
The Houston Texans, despite consistently lurking at the bottom of the barrel in so many aspects of the NFL, are one of the top valuated teams in the NFL.

What does this tell you about..........

...............Our fans?

...............Our investment vs. returns versus our owner's

...............Our owner's business sense vs calculated intents?


Newish stadium
Fans have PSLs which keep them vested
Only thing the owner can definitely control is promoting fan friendly things like tailgating. No owner can make a team for sure win, but they can do stuff like this.
Big city and good marketing staff that takes advantage of the big city.

I can tell you most assuredly that the owner wants to win more than any of us want the team to win. The trouble is that there is no one *right* way to win.

Tscout20
11-28-2008, 07:05 PM
Does any of this help our record this season?? I love the stadium. I enjoy rooting for the team, most of the time. Tailgating is memorable. However, I am ready to win, not just in December.

CloakNNNdagger
11-28-2008, 09:05 PM
After 7 years of a relatively questionable product, for whatever reason, ownership has continued to make money........and fans have continued to maintain loyalty (as exemplified by previous posts). The PSLs have essentially kept many fans (including corporate PSLs) "hostage" or still always hoping that they will yet see a "whole" team "next" year. Food, team merchandise and parking prices go up while the coffers continue to fill and the fan's pockets continue to shrink. I don't really see where the fans are getting any significant benefits in return. And I believe the owner can do more than furnish a good environment for tailgating. The way things have gone over the past 7 years, as only one example, I see ownership making a nice continuous return on player jerseys. Yet, with the continuous high annual player turnover, a good deal of those expensive jerseys are now worthlessly hanging in fans' closets. Try selling any of them, even on Ebay as collector's items..........for that matter see if you can even give them away.


BTW, before pointing to the 300 million dollar value input into Reliant, has everyone forgotten the tax "deal" (http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/HoustonTexans/articles.htm)the city of Houston made with McNair (which can be added as another hidden cost to fans)........this is besides other typical expected operating tax breaks.:

The Houston City Council has voted to give up $632,000 a year in taxes on the Texans' new Reliant Stadium that opens in 2002. Team owner Bob McNair and the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo asked for the tax break to help finance the venue. City officials said a 2004 Super Bowl game planned for the venue would offset most of the tax loss.


...........and let's not forget the 300 million dollar naming rights to be paid over 32 years, if not by Reliant Energy, certainly by someone else............

El Tejano
11-28-2008, 09:14 PM
Newish stadium
No owner can make a team for sure win,


I beg to differ but I will keep that between me and the NFL.

Signed,

Jerry Jones

steelbtexan
11-28-2008, 09:43 PM
TC

I dont know if an owner can make a team win but I know how how an owner can make a team lose.

He can keep around people that helped cuse the salary cap mess (Greir)
The most inuries in the league. (Riley) for several years
The worst secondary (Hoke). for several years
Giving contract extensions to HWNSNBM (favorite son) DDW (Fan Favorite) because they made him money.

If the blame goes to Smithiak for most of these bad decisions then sign me up for the fire them all & start over crowd.

Double Barrel
11-29-2008, 12:30 AM
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10971156 - Mostly teams with either long history in the NFL or teams with new stadiums.

Yeah Texans fans are suckers, or is it just those that go to games? Seems like malice to me that you call everyone who buys anything Texans related a sucker for supporting the team. By the way you have to be a very rich person to own any sports related franchise. Be it football, baseball, or basketball. He did chunk down $800 mil or so to get the NFL back in Houston. He has hired guys like Casserly wo at the time, right or wrong, were respected in their profession to help build the team. He knows business not scouting players. He cares about Houston and having a team in there, not about having a 3-4 defense or a 4-3. So why the shot at him for being rich? If he was middle class we would not have the Houston Texans, it would be the LA whatchamacallits.

I mean not supporting them does wonders for putting a winning team on the field like Jacksonville and Detroit has shown. At least our owner is not Al Davis or Dan Snyder.

I am as disappointed in the team as anyone, mostly the defense this year but showing such disdain for the owner I do not. Rick Smith is the GM, it is time he put his stamp on the team and show that he is in-charge and do what is right. Why not show anger towards him not getting rid of Bobby Grier and Dale Strahm.

Sorry DB but I take your post differently.

Hint: :victory: = humorous intent (see my post you quoted)

I don't call anyone out for buying Texans gear. I buy it all the time. Matter-of-fact, I bought a $25 camo hat at the stadium last game. You betcha' that I'm a sucker, especially for Texans gear I like.

As far as Mr. McNair is concerned, I stated fact. The cat is a very rich man. And I've always appreciated him for bringing us the Texans and defended him accordingly. You can check my history. I've always thought he was an owner with class.

So you can take your assumptions and give them to yourself for Christmas. You certainly have a right to your perceptions. :victory:

Specnatz
11-29-2008, 01:26 AM
Hint: :victory: = humorous intent (see my post you quoted)

I don't call anyone out for buying Texans gear. I buy it all the time. Matter-of-fact, I bought a $25 camo hat at the stadium last game. You betcha' that I'm a sucker, especially for Texans gear I like.

As far as Mr. McNair is concerned, I stated fact. The cat is a very rich man. And I've always appreciated him for bringing us the Texans and defended him accordingly. You can check my history. I've always thought he was an owner with class.

So you can take your assumptions and give them to yourself for Christmas. You certainly have a right to your perceptions. :victory:

I did not know Victory was the symbol for Humorous intent. Oh and there is a huge difference in perception and assumption. Yes you stated a fact he was rich, right next to a comment about Texans fans being suckers. I am not a sucker for supporting a team I care about. As far as checking your history, you know I ca not do that, that was taken care of a while back.

But I do love this quote of yours, regarding assumptions. There is a lot of that is there not?

b0ng
11-29-2008, 09:12 AM
After 7 years of a relatively questionable product

Hey, nobody is holding a gun to any of our heads to support the team. Also if the Texans were playing a the asrodome they wouldn't be as high on that list.

Texans_Chick
11-29-2008, 09:33 AM
After 7 years of a relatively questionable product, for whatever reason, ownership has continued to make money........and fans have continued to maintain loyalty (as exemplified by previous posts). The PSLs have essentially kept many fans (including corporate PSLs) "hostage" or still always hoping that they will yet see a "whole" team "next" year. Food, team merchandise and parking prices go up while the coffers continue to fill and the fan's pockets continue to shrink. I don't really see where the fans are getting any significant benefits in return. And I believe the owner can do more than furnish a good environment for tailgating. The way things have gone over the past 7 years, as only one example, I see ownership making a nice continuous return on player jerseys. Yet, with the continuous high annual player turnover, a good deal of those expensive jerseys are now worthlessly hanging in fans' closets. Try selling any of them, even on Ebay as collector's items..........for that matter see if you can even give them away.


BTW, before pointing to the 300 million dollar value input into Reliant, has everyone forgotten the tax "deal" (http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/HoustonTexans/articles.htm)the city of Houston made with McNair (which can be added as another hidden cost to fans)........this is besides other typical expected operating tax breaks.:




...........and let's not forget the 300 million dollar naming rights to be paid over 32 years, if not by Reliant Energy, certainly by someone else............


Jersey sales are split between the teams.

Look, as someone who has a Jamie Sharper jersey that is signed by a number of players no longer on the team, including Matt Stevens, yeah, would I like to see a winning product on the field. Yes indeedy do.

But I am not going to get bitter at the owner if all the choices he has made haven't worked out. Really, there is no one *right* way to build a team--lots of teams have been successful doing different things.

The worth of the team is really nothing unless you are selling, which he isn't doing. IIRC, if you are looking at year to year net profits, his numbers are okay compared to the rest of the league but not near the top.

I'm fine with the Texans bringing as much money as they can. The facilities are one of the few selling points for a team that has little tradition to attract good players and coaches. Due to the salary cap, you can't really outspend on players, but if McNair has money for get whatever coaches, that is a good thing.

steelbtexan
11-29-2008, 09:33 AM
Agreed

But once you have invested in PSLs it may not be a gun, but it is more like hitting yourelf in the head with a hammer.

You keep hoping you will see a return on your investment.

It's like sitting @ a blackjack table with a guy that is splitting 10's. You know you should getup & leave but you are hoping he will hurry up & lose so the table will return to normal.

Texans_Chick
11-29-2008, 09:46 AM
I beg to differ but I will keep that between me and the NFL.

Signed,

Jerry Jones


Jerry Jones bought one of the most well known sports brands in the world. And is smart enough to leverage it.

He has options available to him that most other teams don't have.

Even so, his business plan of hiring great coaches and having his ego run them off hasn't helped them much with playoff wins in recent years.

Even so, the NFL is a bunch of rich guys who all want the same thing. Teams have found success in different ways. Patient owners have won. Impatient owners have won. Meddlesome owners have won. Handsoff owners have won.

McNair can't sell the team to players and coaches by pulling the tradition card or TV publicity or the huge travelling fanbase. The best thing he can leverage is getting a reputation for being a good owner that gives his team the resources they need.

cuppacoffee
11-29-2008, 10:04 AM
Hey, nobody is holding a gun to any of our heads to support the team. Also if the Texans were playing a the asrodome they wouldn't be as high on that list.


b0ng

I believe that some posters here equate their psl's to the ":gun:" you refer to... ..Some of our fans have lots of :money:..invested in this team.

You may be one of those lucky fans...idonno:..so you could know more about this than I do. (Which isn't very much.)

In todays economy the only value of a psl is the right to buy tickets to watch the games. Right now, with the way the team plays, there is not much bang for the buck. Presently, from what I read on this site, I believe the fans have more entertainment at the tailgate parties than at the games.

I am strickly an armchair fan, my only investment is my time, and I am beginning to resent the loss of time I invest in this team. I can only imagine how frustated the cash customers must be at this point in time.

The team has many loyal, supportive fans. Lets hope they hang around until Mr McNair figures it out. He is trying.

Sorry if I am "preaching to the choir".

:coffee:

b0ng
11-29-2008, 11:07 AM
b0ng

I believe that some posters here equate their psl's to the ":gun:" you refer to... ..Some of our fans have lots of :money:..invested in this team.

You may be one of those lucky fans...idonno:..so you could know more about this than I do. (Which isn't very much.)

In todays economy the only value of a psl is the right to buy tickets to watch the games. Right now, with the way the team plays, there is not much bang for the buck. Presently, from what I read on this site, I believe the fans have more entertainment at the tailgate parties than at the games.

I am strickly an armchair fan, my only investment is my time, and I am beginning to resent the loss of time I invest in this team. I can only imagine how frustated the cash customers must be at this point in time.

The team has many loyal, supportive fans. Lets hope they hang around until Mr McNair figures it out. He is trying.

Sorry if I am "preaching to the choir".

:coffee:


I can't speak on how people feel about their PSL's because I don't know what it's like to own them. However, if you're spending thousands of dollars on something that just pisses you off, I don't think anybody would call you a bad fan for giving up your season tickets.

But frustration or not, nobody is telling us that we have to go buy PSL's, season tickets, jerseys, hats, parking passes, beer, hot dogs, or popcorn. We do it because we want to, and if you don't want to anymore, the Texans aren't going to make you.

And the value of Reliant park has as much to do with the net worth of the Texans, as much as the fans do.

cowbellm00
11-29-2008, 11:11 AM
I beg to differ but I will keep that between me and the NFL.

Signed,

Jerry Jones


LMFAO!

:spit:

steelbtexan
11-29-2008, 11:18 AM
TC I'm of the opinion all owners dont want the same thing.

Examples Bidwells, Fords, When is Carl Petersons 25 year plan going to pay off. ETC

Now if your saying they all want to make as much money as possible I believe you would be correct.

IMO There are a few owners who will really step out on a limb & spend the money to give their team a chance to win a championship.

I think the jury is still out on what kind of owner Mr. McNair is.

steelbtexan
11-29-2008, 11:48 AM
b0ng

I believe that some posters here equate their psl's to the ":gun:" you refer to... ..Some of our fans have lots of :money:..invested in this team.

You may be one of those lucky fans...idonno:..so you could know more about this than I do. (Which isn't very much.)

In todays economy the only value of a psl is the right to buy tickets to watch the games. Right now, with the way the team plays, there is not much bang for the buck. Presently, from what I read on this site, I believe the fans have more entertainment at the tailgate parties than at the games.

I am strickly an armchair fan, my only investment is my time, and I am beginning to resent the loss of time I invest in this team. I can only imagine how frustated the cash customers must be at this point in time.

The team has many loyal, supportive fans. Lets hope they hang around until Mr McNair figures it out. He is trying.

Sorry if I am "preaching to the choir".

:coffee:


This is exactly how I feel being a season ticket holder since 2003.

The reason people have held on to their season tickets is because they are hoping to get a return on their PSL investment. Fans of the good teams have gotten a return on their PSL money & we hope to become a good team & hopefully see a return on the PSL money.

The only person who has seen a return on his money so far is Mr. McNair.

This is due to his horrible judgement when he hired the CC crew & then didn't totally clean house when Kubes took over. Greir, Hoke & Riley.

The only person in upper management he let go besides Casserly was Dan Ferens because he contributed to the cap mess. I.E. bottom line

cuppacoffee
11-29-2008, 11:50 AM
Jerry Jones bought one of the most well known sports brands in the world. And is smart enough to leverage it.

He has options available to him that most other teams don't have.

Even so, his business plan of hiring great coaches and having his ego run them off hasn't helped them much with playoff wins in recent years.

Even so, the NFL is a bunch of rich guys who all want the same thing. Teams have found success in different ways. Patient owners have won. Impatient owners have won. Meddlesome owners have won. Handsoff owners have won.

McNair can't sell the team to players and coaches by pulling the tradition card or TV publicity or the huge travelling fanbase. The best thing he can leverage is getting a reputation for being a good owner that gives his team the resources they need.


The fact that his signature is on the bottom of the game officials :penalty: checks does help. :read:

Pay attention to the timing of penalties in their games.

:jk:..kinda

:coffee: (firm believer in conspiracies.)

Hagar
11-29-2008, 04:27 PM
What does this tell you about..........

...............Our fans?
I don't know that it says anything about our fans. Other then the cost of a PSL has kept a lot of folks buying tickets. If there is one thing I hate about the Texans, its the PSLs. What was once a given in football stadium is now a right that you have to buy.

...............Our investment vs. returns versus our owner's
Make no mistake about it, Bob has put up some dough on this team. The PSLs are put towards the cost of the stadium and don't go into Bob's pocket. Having said that, the stadium may be empty on some of our games but that doesn't mean it isn't sold out.

...............Our owner's business sense vs calculated intents?
Bob is one of the schrewdest business men you'll meet. Any and all fees you will pay at a game are intentional to squeeze every penny out of you he can. and while Bob may not have put together a winning ball club, it isn't for lack of trying. The Texans will be sucessfull one of these days, you can count on it.

steelbtexan
11-29-2008, 06:17 PM
What does this tell you about..........

...............Our fans?
I don't know that it says anything about our fans. Other then the cost of a PSL has kept a lot of folks buying tickets. If there is one thing I hate about the Texans, its the PSLs. What was once a given in football stadium is now a right that you have to buy.

...............Our investment vs. returns versus our owner's
Make no mistake about it, Bob has put up some dough on this team. The PSLs are put towards the cost of the stadium and don't go into Bob's pocket. Having said that, the stadium may be empty on some of our games but that doesn't mean it isn't sold out.

...............Our owner's business sense vs calculated intents?
Bob is one of the schrewdest business men you'll meet. Any and all fees you will pay at a game are intentional to squeeze every penny out of you he can. and while Bob may not have put together a winning ball club, it isn't for lack of trying. The Texans will be sucessfull one of these days, you can count on it.

1. Agreed
2. Some may go toward the stadium but not all. Our tax dollars are the main source of revenue used to pay off the stadium. Thats what it took to get the
NFL back in Houston.
3. I'm glad you have faith & hope you are right.

imatexan
11-29-2008, 09:28 PM
Thier are many different reasons why people buy Texans tickets.

Not all even have to be big Texans fans.

For my step-dad for example he is not a Texans fan but he loves NFL football soo he bought a PSL soo he could see live NFL action in the city where he lives.

GP
11-30-2008, 09:11 AM
I wonder if McNair got filthy rich by using the same tactics in business that he's using in football today?

He invested in mediocre coaches and players for 4 years of the Capers era, and he has invested in mediocre coaches during the Kubiak era. The players have been upgraded somewhat, so I'll give him a little respect on that issue.

Bob must have made a lot of money off of scamming nice, easy-going people like us Texans fans: Because he isn't proving to be a wizard of strategic dominance in the arena that counts, which is winning lots of games.

Would he own stock commodities (Capers) that dogged it for four years, refusing to sell it off because he felt he had to keep it for four years to see if it would turn the corner? Did he buy up a business (Carr), see that it was failing for 3 years, and throw another $8 million at it to keep it afloat for one more year?

I definitely fault Bob McNair for our woes. Lots of people play the "He brought NFL football back to Houston" card to shield him from criticism. That worked the first 3 or 4 years. We're working toward an entire decade of mediocrity, of inflated hopes and deflated realities right around week 8 of each season. This CD is scratched and it keeps skipping.

We're basically the LA Clippers of the NFL.

I guess I should be happy to have mediocre football with no real hope of it turning the bend anytime soon. Ho-ho-ho, Merry Christmas (pass the whiskey, please).

Vinny
11-30-2008, 09:51 AM
what does it tell me? kinda tells me that this is football country. Things will get better eventually as McNair has to learn how to make decisions faster and cut his losses quicker. The league is too fast for him right now but I think he is figuring that out....slowly.

FILO_girl
11-30-2008, 10:06 AM
Hey, it could be worse.
We could be in Detroit. :gun:

Lucky
11-30-2008, 10:29 AM
Hey, it could be worse.
We could be in Detroit. :gun:
That would be worse, seeing that the Lions are considering Charley Casserly to be their next GM (http://www.profootballtalk.com/category/rumor-mill/).

The Detroit Lions are compiling a list of candidates for the position of General Manager. Per a league source, the Lions currently are looking at a quintet of old-school candidates.

The list, we’re told, includes former Packers G.M. Ron Wolf, former Giants G.M. Ernie Accorsi, former Texans and Redskins G.M. Charley Casserly, former Bills G.M. Tom Donahoe, and Chiefs V.P. of player personnel Bill Kuharich, who previously served as G.M. of the Saints.
Yikes! :eek:

imatexan
11-30-2008, 10:34 AM
I wonder if McNair got filthy rich by using the same tactics in business that he's using in football today?

He invested in mediocre coaches and players for 4 years of the Capers era, and he has invested in mediocre coaches during the Kubiak era. The players have been upgraded somewhat, so I'll give him a little respect on that issue.

Bob must have made a lot of money off of scamming nice, easy-going people like us Texans fans: Because he isn't proving to be a wizard of strategic dominance in the arena that counts, which is winning lots of games.

Would he own stock commodities (Capers) that dogged it for four years, refusing to sell it off because he felt he had to keep it for four years to see if it would turn the corner? Did he buy up a business (Carr), see that it was failing for 3 years, and throw another $8 million at it to keep it afloat for one more year?

I definitely fault Bob McNair for our woes. Lots of people play the "He brought NFL football back to Houston" card to shield him from criticism. That worked the first 3 or 4 years. We're working toward an entire decade of mediocrity, of inflated hopes and deflated realities right around week 8 of each season. This CD is scratched and it keeps skipping.

We're basically the LA Clippers of the NFL.

I guess I should be happy to have mediocre football with no real hope of it turning the bend anytime soon. Ho-ho-ho, Merry Christmas (pass the whiskey, please).


What other coach did you expect him to pick up at the time?

As long as we have the Texans in Houston, the "foorball back in houston" card will work for me as long as he does not pull a Bud and threaten to leave.

Bob is not in this to make money, why cant people understand that?

Vinny
11-30-2008, 10:36 AM
What other coach did you expect him to pick up at the time?

As long as we have the Texans in Houston, the "foorball back in houston" card will work for me as long as he does not pull a Bud and threaten to leave.

Bob is not in this to make money, why cant people understand that?
if you don't understand, don't preach yourself is the first thing I thought of after reading your post. McNair is very much into making money and there is nothing wrong with that.

Specnatz
11-30-2008, 10:43 AM
Hey, it could be worse.
We could be in Detroit. :gun:

OR Tampa Bay and New Orleans for each of their first 20 years. If you want to look at a team who changes coaches to often, you can look at the Buffalo Bills over the last 10 years.

Jeff Fisher who folks around here say is one of the best coaches in the NFL went 7-9, 8-8, 8-8, 8-8, 8-8 in his first 5 years and they would have tar, feathered and run his ass out on a rail.

False Start
11-30-2008, 10:44 AM
That would be worse, seeing that the Lions are considering Charley Casserly to be their next GM (http://www.profootballtalk.com/category/rumor-mill/).

Yikes! :eek:

Damn, do they ever want to be a legit NFL team?

CloakNNNdagger
11-30-2008, 10:45 AM
What other coach did you expect him to pick up at the time?

As long as we have the Texans in Houston, the "foorball back in houston" card will work for me as long as he does not pull a Bud and threaten to leave.

Bob is not in this to make money, why cant people understand that?

Now, I'm convinced that a bear doesn't sh*t in the woods either..............:mcnugget:

Vinny
11-30-2008, 10:47 AM
OR Tampa Bay and New Orleans for each of their first 20 years. If you want to look at a team who changes coaches to often, you can look at the Buffalo Bills over the last 10 years.

Jeff Fisher who folks around here say is one of the best coaches in the NFL went 7-9, 8-8, 8-8, 8-8, 8-8 in his first 5 years and they would have tar, feathered and run his ass out on a rail.Tampa Bay was 10-6 went to the Championship game, won their division and was in the playoffs twice by 1982. The franchise started in 1976

Runner
11-30-2008, 10:52 AM
Jeff Fisher who folks around here say is one of the best coaches in the NFL went 7-9, 8-8, 8-8, 8-8, 8-8 in his first 5 years and they would have tar, feathered and run his ass out on a rail.

Around here those records would stamp "elite" on team Texans, much like the three game winning streak did. :)

Specnatz
11-30-2008, 10:57 AM
Tampa Bay was 10-6 went to the Championship game, won their division and was in the playoffs twice by 1982. The franchise started in 1976

Your right when I did the quick glance at pro-football ref I missed that.

Lucky
11-30-2008, 11:14 AM
Jeff Fisher who folks around here say is one of the best coaches in the NFL went 7-9, 8-8, 8-8, 8-8, 8-8 in his first 5 years and they would have tar, feathered and run his ass out on a rail.
Adams couldn't afford to fire Fisher and hire another head coach during the Tennessee Vagabond seasons you are referring to. The Oilers were playing as a lame duck in the Astrodome, then the Liberty Bowl, and finally at a 40K seat college stadium.

Had Bud the revenue from ticket sales and luxury suites, you can be sure he would have canned Fisher. Bud fired coaches until they started winning. The he fired tham when they didn't win enough. Don't believe me? Adams fired Jack Pardee during his first losing season after 4 playoff seasons. He fired Bum Phillips and Jerry Glanville after three consecutive playoff appearances.

BTW, are you seriously comparing Teflonman to Jeff Fisher (who is 5-0 vs teams coached by Teflonman)? It reminds me of my ever so sad comparisons of DC to Troy Aikman. "Aikman started out sucky, and then look what happened". I didn't take into consideration the much more likely scenario that he would begin to suck even worse. Really, this is more laughable than the posters who preferred Teflonman over Andy Reid.

Texans_Chick
11-30-2008, 11:31 AM
We're basically the LA Clippers of the NFL.


Nope. Donald Sterling has a reputation for being one of the cheapest owners in all of sport.

In talking to various staff members of the Texans, Bob McNair does not do things on the cheap as far as providing for facilities and getting what his football staff wants--personnel, equipment, etc.

You can't compete in the salary cap era just on price because of the cap. But you can try to create an environment where the facilities are first class and the coaches and players don't feel constrained because things are being done cheap, like with the Bengals.

Specnatz
11-30-2008, 11:38 AM
BTW, are you seriously comparing Teflonman to Jeff Fisher (who is 5-0 vs teams coached by Teflonman)? It reminds me of my ever so sad comparisons of DC to Troy Aikman. "Aikman started out sucky, and then look what happened". I didn't take into consideration the much more likely scenario that he would begin to suck even worse. Really, this is more laughable than the posters who preferred Teflonman over Andy Reid.

Not sure how a guy with 100s of millions of dollars can not afford to do something but ok.

The only thing that has not improved under Kubiak is the defense. As far as comparisons, I will leave that up to you. I show examples of coaches getting fired, ala Belichick or not being fired, ala Jeff Fisher. Of course I just think that he should be given one more year as long as the defensive coaches are changed.

You can make up names if it helps you but your implying that he has not been critiqued or criticized which is a complete false hood and fabrication of the facts. Sorry but the whole teflonman crap is a farce.

ChampionTexan
11-30-2008, 01:56 PM
Nope. Donald Sterling has a reputation for being one of the cheapest owners in all of sport.

In talking to various staff members of the Texans, Bob McNair does not do things on the cheap as far as providing for facilities and getting what his football staff wants--personnel, equipment, etc.

You can't compete in the salary cap era just on price because of the cap. But you can try to create an environment where the facilities are first class and the coaches and players don't feel constrained because things are being done cheap, like with the Bengals.

I realize it doesn't translate directly into dollars spent, but isn't the Texans coaching staff the largest in the NFL? As with $'s, it doesn't say anything about effectiveness, but I do believe it says something about the owner's intentions.

Lucky
11-30-2008, 02:17 PM
The only thing that has not improved under Kubiak is the defense.
The Texans have been dead last in the AFC South since Teflonman arrived. Just as they were before. The Texans are no closer to the playoffs under Teflonman than they were under Capers in 2004. After 43 games as head coach of an expansion team, Capers was 14-29. After 43 games, Teflonman is 18-25. A 4 game difference. That's not the type of improvement Texan fans were promised back on 1/26/06.


The only thing that has not improved under Kubiak is the defense.
This is why he's Teflonman. He is held unaccountable by many fans for the Texans poor defensive performance and the win/loss record.

What is the point of contention? That Teflonman should get one more year to turn this franchise into a winner? Only because the Texans are better than before at getting first downs? If McNair stands pat, that will show me that he's learned nothing about when to fish & when to cut bait. That indecisiveness starts at the top and permeates down. That we are doomed to be the next Bengals. Proud of our offense and draft picks. Always watching other teams in the playoffs. Sorry, but I'll never be happy about that.

Specnatz
11-30-2008, 02:48 PM
What is the point of contention? That Teflonman should get one more year to turn this franchise into a winner? Only because the Texans are better than before at getting first downs? If McNair stands pat, that will show me that he's learned nothing about when to fish & when to cut bait. That indecisiveness starts at the top and permeates down. That we are doomed to be the next Bengals. Proud of our offense and draft picks. Always watching other teams in the playoffs. Sorry, but I'll never be happy about that.

Who said anything about standing pat?

Yankee_In_TX
11-30-2008, 03:22 PM
The Texans did slip this year from 4th in previous years to 5th this year. I beleive it's printed in Forbes.

Many suspect this was intentional to get out of a revenue sharing rank.

disaacks3
11-30-2008, 03:45 PM
This is why he's Teflonman. He is held unaccountable by many fans for the Texans poor defensive performance and the win/loss record.

What is the point of contention? That Teflonman should get one more year to turn this franchise into a winner? Only because the Texans are better than before at getting first downs? If McNair stands pat, that will show me that he's learned nothing about when to fish & when to cut bait. That indecisiveness starts at the top and permeates down. That we are doomed to be the next Bengals. Proud of our offense and draft picks. Always watching other teams in the playoffs. Sorry, but I'll never be happy about that. Hey, I want the Texans to win MORE than the next guy, but I've got to give them at least SOME credit, where credit is due. Our Offense is dramatically better than it was before. This is despite wholesale changes on the line, receivers, RB, QB, you name it. In other words -"Kubiak" didn't just work from an established CORE and move forward, he kept changing it till it worked.

Even in the NFL, S**T still happens - It's awful hard for me to blame Kubiak for missed blocks that cripple a QB, and lousy ill-timed fumbles / picks that cost us games. Stuff I DO point at - penalties are down, but clock management still sux.

I hear you on the defense, but Kubes wasn't brought in to be a DEFENSIVE Guru. As much as I hate some very basic Richard Smith coaching deficiencies, the man HAS had less than a decent deck to play with. Crippled Mario (for his first year), losing Robinson and hobbled Meco a good portion of THIS season.

The only larger deficiency that I see (other than Richard Smith's horrendous defensive calls) is the Texans inability to pick up quality FA in the offseason. We ARE the proverbial "blind squirrel" in Defensive Secondary FA pick ups.

imatexan
11-30-2008, 03:55 PM
if you don't understand, don't preach yourself is the first thing I thought of after reading your post. McNair is very much into making money and there is nothing wrong with that.


He is very into making money but he did not bring the Texans to Houston to make money off of them

CloakNNNdagger
11-30-2008, 05:26 PM
Jersey sales are split between the teams.

Look, as someone who has a Jamie Sharper jersey that is signed by a number of players no longer on the team, including Matt Stevens, yeah, would I like to see a winning product on the field. Yes indeedy do.

But I am not going to get bitter at the owner if all the choices he has made haven't worked out. Really, there is no one *right* way to build a team--lots of teams have been successful doing different things.

The worth of the team is really nothing unless you are selling, which he isn't doing. IIRC, if you are looking at year to year net profits, his numbers are okay compared to the rest of the league but not near the top.

I'm fine with the Texans bringing as much money as they can. The facilities are one of the few selling points for a team that has little tradition to attract good players and coaches. Due to the salary cap, you can't really outspend on players, but if McNair has money for get whatever coaches, that is a good thing.



I would have to humbly disagree on the first part of the statement that "The worth of the team is really nothing unless you are selling." It means everything in the world as to how much more credit you have available to make further investments to gain additional wealth. With this in mind Forbes value of the Texans was 1.056 billion in 2007, increasing 6.5% to 1.125 million in 2008.

As far as his team's net profits, I'll let everyone come to their own conclusions from this recent (Sept 2008) report (http://bizoffootball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=322:average-nfl-franchise-value-over-1-billion-according-to-forbes&catid=34:nfl-news&Itemid=53)referring to Forbes' numbers. [keep in mind that operating income most accurately reflects the fans' monetary support of the "product."]:

UPDATE: Forbes has now supplied The Biz of Football with the report. Other interesting findings...

The Lions are listed as the only franchise to post an operating income loss at –3.1 million. Operating income is a measure of profit.

Who profits the most? The Houston Texans with an operating income of 43.9 million.

ObsiWan
12-01-2008, 07:51 AM
I don't really get the point of this thread at all. Bob McNair is in business to make money. All the owners are. The way you make the MOST MONEY is by winning. The more you win, the more people want to invest in those PSLs, the more times you get a MNF spot, the more merch. you can peddle, etc. etc.

And you can't tell me that Bob McNair wouldn't just LOVE to reach the Super Bowl before his obnoxious neighbor up I-45. Didja see how SICK McNair looked the last time we played - and lost to - the Cowboys?? Didja see how proud he was when we beat them that first time??

I'm sorry, but this whole, "Bob McNair doesn't care if he wins" train of thought is about most the silliest train of thought I've heard since someone (ESPN) said "Reggie Bush is the next Gayle Sayers".

Vinny
12-01-2008, 07:54 AM
I don't really get the point of this thread at all. Bob McNair is in business to make money. All the owners are. The way you make the MOST MONEY is by winning. The more you win, the more people want to invest in those PSLs, the more times you get a MNF spot, the more merch. you can peddle, etc. etc.

And you can't tell me that Bob McNair wouldn't just LOVE to reach the Super Bowl before his obnoxious neighbor up I-45. Didja see how SICK McNair looked the last time we played - and lost to - the Cowboys?? Didja see how proud he was when we beat them that first time??

I'm sorry, but this whole, "Bob McNair doesn't care if he wins" train of thought is about most the silliest train of thought I've heard since someone (ESPN) said "Reggie Bush is the next Gayle Sayers".
actually, a few years back I read that teams lose money by going into deep playoff runs.

Oh, I'm sure that Bob McNair wants to win the Super Bowl just as much as I want to win the lottery. No argument there. I'm just pretty sure he has no clue how to do it. No doubt he puts together a great infrastructure...but his teams haven't had good leadership, talent evaluation or heart. Hopefully I'll still be in my 40's when we finally make a playoff run. I was in my late 30's when this thing started and I'm now halfway to 50 in this decade.

GP
12-01-2008, 08:31 AM
Nope. Donald Sterling has a reputation for being one of the cheapest owners in all of sport.

In talking to various staff members of the Texans, Bob McNair does not do things on the cheap as far as providing for facilities and getting what his football staff wants--personnel, equipment, etc.

You can't compete in the salary cap era just on price because of the cap. But you can try to create an environment where the facilities are first class and the coaches and players don't feel constrained because things are being done cheap, like with the Bengals.

Where are the BEST coaches? Not in Houston, that's for sure. And that takes $$$. Where's the top free agents? Not in Houston, that's for sure. Oh, we get Weaver who is the next big thing...and the ever-impressive Jacques Reeves, etc.

Teams like Philadelphia are able to go out and grab top free agents every year. How the hell do they do that? Magic?

Reading your argument, about the nicest crap for players to play with, only confirms to me that the focus in Houston is NOT on winning the Super Bowl. Conversely, it's about luring players with the daily gift of a gravy train.

This shouldn't be "The Suite Life of Zac & Cody" here. This should be a place where players (who used to dream of winning it all, I guess) come to win it all. We think that players will come here because it's nice and pleasant, but I wonder if the TOP players don't want to come here because they know it's a place where careers go to die (see Andre Johnson, for example).

It's pretty sad that a guy like Andre Johnson is looking at his legacy from the aspect of putting up nice numbers but never even making it to the playoffs. I sincerely wish he'd move on with another team, because watching his efforts ultimately go unrewarded (here) is killing me. Same for Dunta. Same for DeMeco. But, hey...it's fuuuuun to play in Houston.

Lucky is right when he talks about the attitude starting at the top and working its way downward. Like Julius said in Remember The Titans: Attitude reflect leadership.

Texan_Bill
12-01-2008, 08:50 AM
Tampa Bay was 10-6 went to the Championship game, won their division and was in the playoffs twice by 1982. The franchise started in 1976

Of course after the two playoff appearances in their first 6 seasons, they reeled off 15 consecutive losing seasons.

CloakNNNdagger
12-01-2008, 09:12 AM
Of course after the two playoff appearances in their first 6 seasons, they reeled off 15 consecutive losing seasons.

Their loyal fans since then like ours have been praying for a decent product, laying down their money to ensure their team's operating income being just below the Texans', despite a long list of repeated questionable managment decisions.

noxiousdog
12-01-2008, 09:12 AM
The sellouts have been basically thanks to ticket brokers for years now, so that always bumps up the income. Same with being a major market team and a new stadium.


FWIW, I had zero trouble getting a buyer for the Cincinnatti game at face value.

Texan_Bill
12-01-2008, 09:22 AM
Their loyal fans since then like ours have been praying for a decent product, laying down their money to ensure their team's operating income being just below the Texans', despite a long list of repeated questionable managment decisions.

Well, they hung in there and were rewarded with a Super Bowl Championship ( :secret: Unlike some miserable franchise in the hollar)... and a fair amount of success in their least 10 / 11 seasons..

Double Barrel
12-01-2008, 10:40 AM
I did not know Victory was the symbol for Humorous intent. Oh and there is a huge difference in perception and assumption. Yes you stated a fact he was rich, right next to a comment about Texans fans being suckers. I am not a sucker for supporting a team I care about. As far as checking your history, you know I ca not do that, that was taken care of a while back.

But I do love this quote of yours, regarding assumptions. There is a lot of that is there not?

Dude, the victory smiley is winking. Get a grip.

And yeah, my two sentences were written with tongue firmly planted in cheek. If you can't discern objective comprehension because of your dislike for me, then I suggest you kindly place me on your ignore list because your perception is obviously clouded. I could honestly care less what you think, but when you misquote me and write a three paragraph dissertation about something that I said with humorous intentions, then you are being a bit over-sensitive. Mix in a Midol and wake me when I give a crap about your assumptions of my intent (which means I'll be hibernation for awhile).

p.s. I had no idea that you could not use the search feature in the forum. hmmmm, wonder why that would be turned off for you...

bigbrewster2000
12-01-2008, 10:49 AM
TC

I dont know if an owner can make a team win but I know how how an owner can make a team lose.

He can keep around people that helped cuse the salary cap mess (Greir)
The most inuries in the league. (Riley) for several years
The worst secondary (Hoke). for several years
Giving contract extensions to HWNSNBM (favorite son) DDW (Fan Favorite) because they made him money.

If the blame goes to Smithiak for most of these bad decisions then sign me up for the fire them all & start over crowd.

This one I disagree with. Every team has to deal with injuries. We have gotten pretty unlucky in years past. And looking at the injuries this year the only injury that could be put on Strength and Conditioning is Diles. We have 10 guys on the IR and Diles was the only major contributor.

Vinny
12-01-2008, 11:52 AM
p.s. I had no idea that you could not use the search feature in the forum. hmmmm, wonder why that would be turned off for you...
nobody has turned off his search feature, but we did lock him out of some non-football forums since he has issues playing nicely with others. Those are the only forums he shouldn't be able to search.

ObsiWan
12-01-2008, 04:17 PM
actually, a few years back I read that teams lose money by going into deep playoff runs.

Oh, I'm sure that Bob McNair wants to win the Super Bowl just as much as I want to win the lottery. No argument there. I'm just pretty sure he has no clue how to do it. No doubt he puts together a great infrastructure...but his teams haven't had good leadership, talent evaluation or heart. Hopefully I'll still be in my 40's when we finally make a playoff run. I was in my late 30's when this thing started and I'm now halfway to 50 in this decade.

This, my friend, is the crux of the matter. We have a rookie owner - a businessman that didn't come out of a football background - who's still trying to figure out what it takes to win in this league. Hopefully, he'll figure it out sooner rather than later.

CloakNNNdagger
12-01-2008, 07:07 PM
This, my friend, is the crux of the matter. We have a rookie owner - a businessman that didn't come out of a football background - who's still trying to figure out what it takes to win in this league. Hopefully, he'll figure it out sooner rather than later.

I think most businessmen would tell you that after 7 years, if you are still falling back on the "rookie" label, your business acumen in the field would be considered "dead," and it may be time to move over or move on. :thinking:

GP
12-02-2008, 09:29 AM
I think most businessmen would tell you that after 7 years, if you are still falling back on the "rookie" label, your business acumen in the field would be considered "dead," and it may be time to move over or move on. :thinking:

This tends to be the main argument for those who say things are okey-dokey, the "He's still trying to learn how to be an NFL owner" argument.

And your post is accurate: When do the Texans become a real team, and not the lowly expansion team who got shafted early on? When do we get past the Capers and Casserly era that people think is still haunting us? When does McNair finally catch on, as an owner, and get past being a rookie owner?

Things in the NFL do not "take time." Miami, Atlanta, and Baltimore did not sit back this offseason and say to the fanbase: "Hey, this is going to be a 3-5 year project. We're starting from square one. Be patient."

They just rolled their sleeves up and went to work, and it shows on the field. The Falcons and the Dolphins were two of the most septic/toxic teams in the entire NFL last year. They make a major move in the area of HC, a couple of tweaks in the roster, and BAM! they're doing pretty good all of a sudden.

Slaton is going to need a Brandon Jacobs-type running back partner if he's going to live a long and happy NFL life. The thing that Miami and Atlanta have in common is that they both have a powerful running game with two legitimate RBs on the roster: Norwood/Turner and Williams/Brown. If we could pick up a larger-framed RB, and a new defensive coordinator who knows that it's legal to blitz in the first 8 games of each season, we'd be set.

I still don't understand why McNair and Kubiak felt Richard Smith was the guy for the job. That's the hiring that makes the least amount of sense, to all of us, correct? Where would we be right now if we had a Dick Jauron or Jim Johnson or Monty Kiffin or some other premiere d-coordinator instead of Smith?