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mussop
11-18-2008, 12:22 AM
This would be my Dream D
coach Marvin Lewis
style 3/4
FA's Open the bank sign Terrell Suggs and Albert Haynesworth to max contracts
draft Tade down get 3 of the top 45 players
Rey Maualaga LB 6-2, 250 USC
Victor 'Macho' Harris 5-11, 192 4.50 Virginia Tech
Emanuel Cook 5-10, 205 4.52 South Carolina

Mario Haynesworth Amobi
Adibi Maualaga Ryans Suggs
Harris Cook Whoever Robinson

dalemurphy
11-18-2008, 12:37 AM
1. Fire Smith!

2. Teach these defensive players about football!

3. add this thing to the game plan called "unpredictability"

4. add this other thing called "disguise"

5. add this other thing called "intensity"

DerekLee1
11-18-2008, 12:55 AM
FA's Open the bank sign Terrell Suggs and Albert Haynesworth to max contracts

It's not about "opening the bank". It's about fitting them under the cap.

nunusguy
11-18-2008, 06:15 AM
Albert Haynesworth. Or the closet thing to him.
I've been watching a lot of NFL ball for lots of years (decades actually), and as valuable as a "shut-down" corner or a premier "edge-rusher" is to a defense, I'm now very confidant that the single MVP a defense can have is a large, powerful but also mobile, active inside DLineman/DT.
BTW, Hayeswoth does in fact become an unrestricted FA in this offseason as I understand it ? Wonder who gets him and how much guaranteed money he gets in his contract ?

TimeKiller
11-18-2008, 07:40 AM
1. Hire Wade Phillips as DC when he gets the pink slip. Let him install 3/4
2. Sign Terrell Suggs
3. Draft premier MLB (Mauluga/Laraunitis), 2nd/3rd round DB help
4. Actually look like a defense, maybe eventually play like one.

Suggs, Amobi/Okam/Johnson, Mario
Diles, Ryans, 1st rounder, Adibi
Robinson, 2nd rounder, Barber, 3rd rounder/Bennett/Molden

YoungTexanFan
11-18-2008, 07:56 AM
Albert Haynesworth. Or the closet thing to him.
I've been watching a lot of NFL ball for lots of years (decades actually), and as valuable as a "shut-down" corner or a premier "edge-rusher" is to a defense, I'm now very confidant that the single MVP a defense can have is a large, powerful but also mobile, active inside DLineman/DT.
BTW, Hayeswoth does in fact become an unrestricted FA in this offseason as I understand it ? Wonder who gets him and how much guaranteed money he gets in his contract ?

First off, he is trash as a person, meaning he has no job on our team. Secondly, we won't spend that kind of money stupidly. I've stated my opinion on him quite a few times before this year, you can pull up those posts to get my true thoughts.

hot pickle
11-18-2008, 07:59 AM
First off, he is trash as a person, meaning he has no job on our team. Secondly, we won't spend that kind of money stupidly. I've stated my opinion on him quite a few times before this year, you can pull up those posts to get my true thoughts.

but atleast the titans win some games and the texans dont.. i wonder why... cause we have no attitude

YoungTexanFan
11-18-2008, 08:02 AM
1. Hire Wade Phillips as DC when he gets the pink slip. Let him install 3/4
2. Sign Terrell Suggs
3. Draft premier MLB (Mauluga/Laraunitis), 2nd/3rd round DB help
4. Actually look like a defense, maybe eventually play like one.

Suggs, Amobi/Okam/Johnson, Mario
Diles, Ryans, 1st rounder, Adibi
Robinson, 2nd rounder, Barber, 3rd rounder/Bennett/Molden

Ok. Do you have 2-3 years to wait while we transition BACK to a 3-4? You want to sign Suggs? Cool, so do I. You want to play him at 3-4 DE? Why? He is either a 3-4 OLB Rush Specialist or a 4-3 DE Rush Specialist. You have Barber starting next to a rookie, this I have a huge problem with. Also, Robinson hasn't shown anything in 2 1/2 years to make me think he is an NFL starter. Also, with the DL you suggest, TJ and Amobi aren't 3-4 NT's; not at all. Marie has the size to be a 3-4 DE, but why would you waste that kind of money to not get the production?

This plan is poorly thought out in dang near every aspect.

YoungTexanFan
11-18-2008, 08:03 AM
but atleast the titans win some games and the texans dont.. i wonder why... cause we have no attitude

Like I said, look up my prior posts on him. I've said a lot.

Texan_Bill
11-18-2008, 08:13 AM
Re: How would you fix our D?

"Stop someone for a change or............."

http://visibility911.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/firing_squad_2.jpg

Hervoyel
11-18-2008, 08:42 AM
Ok. Do you have 2-3 years to wait while we transition BACK to a 3-4? You want to sign Suggs? Cool, so do I. You want to play him at 3-4 DE? Why? He is either a 3-4 OLB Rush Specialist or a 4-3 DE Rush Specialist. You have Barber starting next to a rookie, this I have a huge problem with. Also, Robinson hasn't shown anything in 2 1/2 years to make me think he is an NFL starter. Also, with the DL you suggest, TJ and Amobi aren't 3-4 NT's; not at all. Marie has the size to be a 3-4 DE, but why would you waste that kind of money to not get the production?

This plan is poorly thought out in dang near every aspect.

What makes you think that it will take that long? Honestly I can't understand why anyone would assume that a 2-3 year transition is waiting in the wing under a good 3-4 DC like Wade Phillips or Marvin Lewis. This is not even remotely an "empty cubbard" of a defense and a number of parts that you would be replacing to go 3-4 need to be replaced anyway if you're ever going to have an effective 4-3.

Add to that the idea that many (good) defenses today don't trot a 3-4 or 4-3 out every single down and I think you've already got some pieces right here that could be used by a good DC to implement his system.

I think that getting hung up on the idea that going to a 3-4 defense would take us years and years to accomplish is something we've gotten used to because we're Texans fans and we're always being told that it's going to take "years and years" to get anything done around here. Meanwhile other teams go out and build, rebuild, change, and change back in windows of less than 2 years.

It might take Richard Smith 2-3 years to build a defense (and I'm thinking he couldn't do it in 5-6 years based on his accomplishments here) but nobody actually capable of doing the job is going to take that long.

And TJ was actually drafted to play NT for us in a 3-4 by the way. I can't argue that he didn't pan out (He's a worthless slug) but he is exactly the guy who our former regime picked to replace Seth Payne. He's got the body (or could have if he'd make an effort), he just lacks any semblence of the motor.

beerlover
11-18-2008, 08:47 AM
elevate Frank Bush to DC but offer Richard Smith the LB coach position (his strength).

keep same system, but focus on front four pressure, tighter coverage. stripping the rock skills & in general more of a physical nature.

assess strength & conditioning coaching staff led by Dan Riley, are they developing our players to the fullest?

make some organizational changes to the Pro Scouting Dept (poor track record in free agency) release Bob Grier & bring in Broncos Chris Trulove Coordinator of Pro Scouting to replace him.

Its not neccessary @ this point to do massive overhauls of the complete staff just some healthy movement & stay the course, same with roster positions (we all know time is running out on certain players so let those chips fall where they may).

I expect alot of dialogue of pros & cons between 4-3 & 3-4 for a number of reasons one being the Texans franchise was built to be run a 3-4, secondly the 3-4 is a more aggressive dynamic approach to playing defense but that the foundation for that scheme is long gone & never reached its potential to begin with (injury's/talent evaluation- Travis was a 3-4 bust). Now its clear this teams foundation is much closer to being built in the trenches with so much depth/talent/1st rd. picks it just takes time & the missing link- the big power physical inside presence, someone who is feared by Centers & guards alike, someone like a "Mount Cody" from Alabama in the draft. you take hiim as your first pick (right now thats looking top 10) then with your high 2nd (which the Texans have not had since taking DeMeco in 06) you take another LB like Cushing, USC or Curry of Wake Forrest etc...whoever slips into their range then some speed at safety in the 3rd, like Derek Peques, Mississippi State or Curtis Taylor LSU.

Free Agency I would love to see the Texans just lock up their foundation pieces like DeMeco, Dunta & of course Mario. unless someone like a Suggs really wants to come here I'm just not comfortable overspending for star caliber players until our own are our own. This is one area where the Texans really need a change in leadership to help our own players buy into the system, their future & the success of this franchise going forward without that we will remain a doormat of the AFC South.

Kaiser Toro
11-18-2008, 08:49 AM
1 - Have Ray Rhodes audit every coach and player through the rest of the season and report to Kubiak, Smith and McNair.
2 - Fire Richard Smith and then Hoke. Based on Rhodes audits, keep the position coaches per Rhodes audit.
3 - Ray Rhodes needs to tap into his well of contacts and recommend DCs and Secondary coaches for interviews.
4 - Dunta Robinson - figure it out what we are going to do with him. Tagging him may not be the best move due to the investment that will need to be made.
5 - Draft or sign a NT that can step in play yesterday
6 - Make your defense about stopping something whether it be the run or pass - have a mantra and bonus the hell out of defensive unit and position goals.
7 - Commit to the run. Dead legs for your RBs equate to dead legs for your defense.

Kubiak strikes me, much like myself, as loyal to a fault. He needs someone to shake his **** up in this instance and make football decisions rather than "family" and long term coaching relationships. At this point I feel he is only damaging this organization's reputation while keeping his clean.

YoungTexanFan
11-18-2008, 09:03 AM
What makes you think that it will take that long? Honestly I can't understand why anyone would assume that a 2-3 year transition is waiting in the wing under a good 3-4 DC like Wade Phillips or Marvin Lewis. This is not even remotely an "empty cubbard" of a defense and a number of parts that you would be replacing to go 3-4 need to be replaced anyway if you're ever going to have an effective 4-3.

Add to that the idea that many (good) defenses today don't trot a 3-4 or 4-3 out every single down and I think you've already got some pieces right here that could be used by a good DC to implement his system.

I think that getting hung up on the idea that going to a 3-4 defense would take us years and years to accomplish is something we've gotten used to because we're Texans fans and we're always being told that it's going to take "years and years" to get anything done around here. Meanwhile other teams go out and build, rebuild, change, and change back in windows of less than 2 years.

It might take Richard Smith 2-3 years to build a defense (and I'm thinking he couldn't do it in 5-6 years based on his accomplishments here) but nobody actually capable of doing the job is going to take that long.

And TJ was actually drafted to play NT for us in a 3-4 by the way. I can't argue that he didn't pan out (He's a worthless slug) but he is exactly the guy who our former regime picked to replace Seth Payne. He's got the body (or could have if he'd make an effort), he just lacks any semblence of the motor.

While TJ was drafted by a 3-4 regime, he has never been a 3-4 NT. Coming out of Florida State, he was a gap penetrator. Hardly a NT, nor does he, nor did he, have the size to play NT. His Senior year at FS, he was listed at 290. He's roughly 303 now. We can just throw that under the bus if you will.

Our cupboard is not "bare" but it isn't stocked and ready to move in with either. In fact, to transition to a 3-4 defense, we are closer to "bare" than we are to "stocked". Mario is more of 3-4 OLB than a 3-4 DE, and at least there is some hope to get production out of him. Also, I would question wether Ryans is big enough to play ILB in the 3-4 and could actually see him being a good OLB to utilize his blitzing ability. So then you have Okoye, yet ANOTHER 1st round DL who doesn't fit the 3-4 DL. What do you propose we do with him? I assume you want Okam at NT with his actual ability to play that position. Okoye isn't a run stopper, and he was drafted high because of his potential ability to get to the QB in a 1-gap technique.

That means, you need 1-2 DE's, 1-2 OLB's, 1-2 ILB's. We still need a CB1 and FS/SS. Of course I see every reason to put off upgrading the areas of weakness to switch to a defense we have to "transition" to, and yeah, it will take YEARS.

DBCooper
11-18-2008, 09:09 AM
but atleast the titans win some games and the texans dont.. i wonder why... cause we have no attitude

The Titans win because of Jeff Fisher.

Showtime100
11-18-2008, 09:31 AM
Maybe run more stunts and get a linebacker to help get some defensive surge up the middle. It was getting frustrating watching Mario getting there a split second late play after play.

Just once I'd like to see a QB turn and run into Mario like he saw a snake and ran into a tree.

[Richard Pryor line] SNAKE!!.......POW! :tiphat:

Tailgate
11-18-2008, 09:32 AM
Yeah, switching back to the 3-4 would be less ideal than hopefully getting a legit big man DT and a DE this offseason. A big DT would help free up Amobi (who is still very young and learning) and a legit pass rushing threat opposite of Mario would do the same for him. Add a true MLB and put Demeco on the outside. Get Dunta completely healthy and have Molden live up to his potential, and we are alot closer to where we need to be defensively. This while a new DC is calling in the plays of course.

dsorc
11-18-2008, 09:34 AM
First, I think we have got the pieces to play either a 3-4 or a 4-3. The only thing that may be difficult in switching to a 3-4 is finding a NT and maybe an OLB but at the same time we also need this to some extent in the 4-3 (Big run stopping DT and RDE). With that said a hybrid defense is also a possibility. We should go for the best DC available no matter the system he runs as long as they can feel comfortable with running that system with our players plus whoever they want in the first round.

That said, my dream scenario is as follows. Get Phillips, Singletary, or another productive 3-4 DC. Get Suggs in FA to play SOLB. Draft Cody in the first and a S in the 2nd like Rolle or Chung.
DE=Okoye, Cochran, and Bulman
DT=Cody and Okam
SOLB=Suggs
ILB=Demeco, Diles and Adibi
WOLB=Mario (who would probably be rushing most of the time)
CB=Dunta, Bennet, Reeves, Molden
FS=Wilson and Harrison
SS=Ferguson and Rookie

texanhead08
11-18-2008, 09:40 AM
I don't like the idea of Mario at OLB. I want him attacking the backfield every play. The fact I have seen him dropping back in coverage more than once pisses me off.

Hervoyel
11-18-2008, 10:24 AM
While TJ was drafted by a 3-4 regime, he has never been a 3-4 NT. Coming out of Florida State, he was a gap penetrator. Hardly a NT, nor does he, nor did he, have the size to play NT. His Senior year at FS, he was listed at 290. He's roughly 303 now. We can just throw that under the bus if you will.

Travis Johnson is listed as being 6'3" and 311 pounds at NFL.com and he was drafted to replace Seth Payne who was 6'4" and 303 pounds. Would it be preferable to have a 345 pounder like Mr. Ngata over at Baltimore? Sure. Is Travis Johnson too small to play at NT? No. As I said in my original post over on the "Who would you make Defensive Coordinator" thread I've seen a big ol' cheeseburger eatin' NT get cut loose almost every year from somewhere and then signed to another team before the season is out (and play well). Sure you look out for one to draft who is "special" but you can find one to play without much trouble and you can back him up without much trouble. One other word. "Okam" as you pointed out is right there on the roster.

Our cupboard is not "bare" but it isn't stocked and ready to move in with either. In fact, to transition to a 3-4 defense, we are closer to "bare" than we are to "stocked". Mario is more of 3-4 OLB than a 3-4 DE, and at least there is some hope to get production out of him. Also, I would question wether Ryans is big enough to play ILB in the 3-4 and could actually see him being a good OLB to utilize his blitzing ability. So then you have Okoye, yet ANOTHER 1st round DL who doesn't fit the 3-4 DL. What do you propose we do with him? I assume you want Okam at NT with his actual ability to play that position. Okoye isn't a run stopper, and he was drafted high because of his potential ability to get to the QB in a 1-gap technique.

Mario is 6'6" and 283 and he could bounce between DE and OLB without any trouble at all. The Ravens start a guy who is 290lbs at RDE and don't seem too bothered with that. Okoye is 6'2" and 306lbs while the Ravens start a guy at LDE who is 310lbs and an inch taller. Okoye is still got much upside and the ability to gain strength and weight. He's a kid right now (maybe one of the only players Kubiak can legitimately call a "kid") and so I say that the DE spots can be filled with the two of them. Your point about Okam is absolutely correct. He can absolutely do that. This guy is 6'5" and 337lbs. Why doesn't he fit by the numbers?

As for the linebackers you're going to need a few, I never said that you wouldn't. You need a few right now so how is that any different. DeMeco Ryans is 6'1" and 245 pounds (according to NFL.com so grain of salt and all that) while Jamie Sharper was 6'3" and 239 pounds. I think he's big enough to play either inside or outside. Jay Foreman (who sucked badly) was 6'1 and 240lbs. Zach Diles is 6'0 and 240lbs.

These players can be used and you cannot convince me that you can't get more out of these guys with a Wade Phillips or a Marvin Lewis coaching them than we're getting out of Rick Smith coaching them.

That means, you need 1-2 DE's, 1-2 OLB's, 1-2 ILB's. We still need a CB1 and FS/SS. Of course I see every reason to put off upgrading the areas of weakness to switch to a defense we have to "transition" to, and yeah, it will take YEARS.

1-2 DE's? No you don't but by all means go get another one if he's there.

1-2 OLB's? Maybe so but they're not impossible to find.

1-2 ILB's? No you don't.

CB1 is likely Dunta Robinson next year with the best of the rest as CB2 no matter who is coaching the D or what kind of D he's coaching in my scenario.

FS/SS is up in the air which makes it exactly like every single year of the Texans existence. I think if you can get an elite one at our first round spot you go get that guy. If not Wilson and Ferguson can play better than they have this year. Demps can play better than he has this year. It's not a bad group, it's a group that's always out of position. This is coaching, particularly where guys who have never been this lousy are concerned.

I don't see this as nearly the ordeal that you and many others do. I'm not as hung up on the sizes and weights as you appear to be either. I'm not going to say a guy can't do it because he's an inch shorter or 6-10 pounds lighter than the ideal player at that spot. I just think that's the wrong way to go about it. Sure you want the prototypical types when you can get them but that's the whole point of bringing in a better DC. Who cares if he's a 3-4 guy or a 4-3 guy if he can friggin coach. The guy we have now can't do squat and guys are getting worse playing for him. Seriously, he appears to need 11 first rounders with undeniable freakish talent to field a reasonably capable unit. You bring in a quality DC and give him what he asks for (and believe me Wade or Marvin will know what to ask for) and results will follow.

steelbtexan
11-18-2008, 10:53 AM
1. Fire Dick Smith & everyone associated with the CC regime. (Greir, Riley, Hoke).
2. If we cant sign Haynesworth or Suggs I would sign Gamble & McAlister or McFadden.
3. Trade 09 3rd & 2010 3rd for an 09 2nd
4. Draft
rd1 Cody DT Ala
rd2 E. Brown DE Fla St
rd 2 Cushing LB USC
rd 4 Byars C-G USC
rd5 Matthews LB USC
rd6 Ayers DE Tenn or Wilson DE Ohio St
rd7 Bell RB Col. St.

BigBull17
11-18-2008, 11:33 AM
1. Fire Dick Smith & everyone associated with the CC regime. (Greir, Riley, Hoke).
2. If we cant sign Haynesworth or Suggs I would sign Gamble & McAlister or McFadden.
3. Trade 09 3rd & 2010 3rd for an 09 2nd
4. Draft
rd1 Cody DT Ala
rd2 E. Brown DE Fla St
rd 2 Cushing LB USC
rd 4 Byars C-G USC
rd5 Matthews LB USC
rd6 Ayers DE Tenn or Wilson DE Ohio St
rd7 Bell RB Col. St.

I dont want any part of a 1st round DT. Look at the sucess rate of them in the last 4 years. It aint pretty. Suggs and Haynesworth would be cool, and give us a mean streak. Ashmasmandkjfnklervnweuch from Oakland would be great, but he will get the tag. If McNabb gets the ax, Ill drive up there to pick him up myself.

Jackie Chiles
11-18-2008, 12:07 PM
Travis Johnson is listed as being 6'3" and 311 pounds at NFL.com and he was drafted to replace Seth Payne who was 6'4" and 303 pounds. Would it be preferable to have a 345 pounder like Mr. Ngata over at Baltimore? Sure. Is Travis Johnson too small to play at NT? No. As I said in my original post over on the "Who would you make Defensive Coordinator" thread I've seen a big ol' cheeseburger eatin' NT get cut loose almost every year from somewhere and then signed to another team before the season is out (and play well). Sure you look out for one to draft who is "special" but you can find one to play without much trouble and you can back him up without much trouble. One other word. "Okam" as you pointed out is right there on the roster.



Mario is 6'6" and 283 and he could bounce between DE and OLB without any trouble at all. The Ravens start a guy who is 290lbs at RDE and don't seem too bothered with that. Okoye is 6'2" and 306lbs while the Ravens start a guy at LDE who is 310lbs and an inch taller. Okoye is still got much upside and the ability to gain strength and weight. He's a kid right now (maybe one of the only players Kubiak can legitimately call a "kid") and so I say that the DE spots can be filled with the two of them. Your point about Okam is absolutely correct. He can absolutely do that. This guy is 6'5" and 337lbs. Why doesn't he fit by the numbers?

As for the linebackers you're going to need a few, I never said that you wouldn't. You need a few right now so how is that any different. DeMeco Ryans is 6'1" and 245 pounds (according to NFL.com so grain of salt and all that) while Jamie Sharper was 6'3" and 239 pounds. I think he's big enough to play either inside or outside. Jay Foreman (who sucked badly) was 6'1 and 240lbs. Zach Diles is 6'0 and 240lbs.

These players can be used and you cannot convince me that you can't get more out of these guys with a Wade Phillips or a Marvin Lewis coaching them than we're getting out of Rick Smith coaching them.



1-2 DE's? No you don't but by all means go get another one if he's there.

1-2 OLB's? Maybe so but they're not impossible to find.

1-2 ILB's? No you don't.

CB1 is likely Dunta Robinson next year with the best of the rest as CB2 no matter who is coaching the D or what kind of D he's coaching in my scenario.

FS/SS is up in the air which makes it exactly like every single year of the Texans existence. I think if you can get an elite one at our first round spot you go get that guy. If not Wilson and Ferguson can play better than they have this year. Demps can play better than he has this year. It's not a bad group, it's a group that's always out of position. This is coaching, particularly where guys who have never been this lousy are concerned.

I don't see this as nearly the ordeal that you and many others do. I'm not as hung up on the sizes and weights as you appear to be either. I'm not going to say a guy can't do it because he's an inch shorter or 6-10 pounds lighter than the ideal player at that spot. I just think that's the wrong way to go about it. Sure you want the prototypical types when you can get them but that's the whole point of bringing in a better DC. Who cares if he's a 3-4 guy or a 4-3 guy if he can friggin coach. The guy we have now can't do squat and guys are getting worse playing for him. Seriously, he appears to need 11 first rounders with undeniable freakish talent to field a reasonably capable unit. You bring in a quality DC and give him what he asks for (and believe me Wade or Marvin will know what to ask for) and results will follow.

A couple things about this. First, I am positive that TJ was drafted to play DE in our 4-3, it was stated that he had the versatility to pretty much line up anywhere on that front including the nose but that was not his ideal position. He had enough trouble lining up at end and he has shown more recently that he doesn't have what it takes to play the nose in a 4-3 let alone a 3-4.

Having said that I don't think the switch would be as much of a hassle as some think. The secondary is going to be the secondary regardless of which scheme is run. Ours will be below average at best in either. DeMeco could excel in either scheme and I think Diles could play the other ILB spot. Mario could definitely switch between end and OLB and Okam has the size to be a good NT.

The problem I have is that our two highest drafted/paid guys are prototype 4-3 players. Mario is a 4-3 DE in the mold of a Bruce Smith/Michael Strahan. Amobi was drafted to be and could still develop into a stud 3 technique DT. He is a 1 gap player and asking him to tie up blockers is similar to asking Travis to do what he did as a rookie, even worse I believe because Okoye has shown some flashes of being able to penetrate. Neither of them is stout enough against the run or double teams. Okoye will hopefully mature, and once we get a nice fat DT next to him, excel in a 4-3.

I really believe a lot of the problem lies in the coaching. Let me throw out some analogies/hypotheticals we are all familiar with:

Lets say Capers had stayed for a few more years. He gets the exact same offensive personnel that Kubiak got. Do we all believe that he could have gotten nearly the production that Kubiak has gotten with them? No chance imo. Offensive coaching and scheme makes a huge difference and its the same with the defense.

Now for the defense. We all remember how "atrocious" our O-line was when Carr was here. We finally get rid of him and all of a sudden they are not nearly as bad as we and everyone else thought they were. Are they an elite unit? Heck no, still a lot of room for improvement but they are not close to the historically bad line they were made out to be. Just think of Richard Smith as David Carr, the sequel. He is not running NFL schemes out there, they are college level at best. When we finally get some legit NFL defensive coaching, like we have on offense, are we going to be world beaters? I don't believe that but I think we could easily be mediocre which would be a huge improvement and probably net us quite a few wins. If we focus this off-season on defense, both players and coaching, I think we could make a sizable jump similar to what we made on offense when Kubiak got here and we ditched Carr. Its not going to solve all our other problems but this is a step in the right direction.

Mr teX
11-18-2008, 01:20 PM
Albert Haynesworth. Or the closet thing to him.
I've been watching a lot of NFL ball for lots of years (decades actually), and as valuable as a "shut-down" corner or a premier "edge-rusher" is to a defense, I'm now very confidant that the single MVP a defense can have is a large, powerful but also mobile, active inside DLineman/DT.
BTW, Hayeswoth does in fact become an unrestricted FA in this offseason as I understand it ? Wonder who gets him and how much guaranteed money he gets in his contract ?

In this day & age of Qb's & spread offenses in the NFL, you need a shut down secondary more so than a run plugger; reason being is b/c those secondary & Lb skill guys are tougher to find & u need more of them. Albert Haynesworth is certainly a key kog in that defense, but the major reason they're so good is b/c they're secondary guys are lights out.

Yeah, they're top 10 against the run which would be haynesworth's specialty, but they are top 6 in every defensive statistic concerning passing, including tied for 2nd in interceptions. What's more is that opposing teams know they can't run on tenn. so the secondary expects lots of passing. they also tackle well & are trying to kill u went they get to the ball as well. Contrast that with Minn. who compare favorably to Tenn. on the d-line......except the secondary & lb core. 1 team is 10-0 & the other is 5-5....u figure it out.

We have no one in the secondary that can cover someone long enough for the D-line pressure that we do generate to get there. Last week's game didn't do anything to change my mind about what this defense needs to do to get better.

BaylrBearBryant
11-18-2008, 01:24 PM
Biggest trade in NFL history, trade our whole defense for Pittsburgh's or Tennessee's D.

Hervoyel
11-18-2008, 02:48 PM
A couple things about this. First, I am positive that TJ was drafted to play DE in our 4-3, it was stated that he had the versatility to pretty much line up anywhere on that front including the nose but that was not his ideal position. He had enough trouble lining up at end and he has shown more recently that he doesn't have what it takes to play the nose in a 4-3 let alone a 3-4....

You are correct sir and I retract my statements about TJ being drafted to replace Payne. I recall that statement and I'm certain I remembered that incorrectly now.

Kind of beside the point though for the real meat of the topic. TJ is big enough to play there as a reserve in spot duty and Okam has enough potential to merit getting the nod there initially anyway unless you can find a big ol' veteran man-mountain that somebody cut.

mussop
11-18-2008, 04:37 PM
A few things to note here.
1.) TJ was not drafted to be a DE. You are going to have to show me a direct qoute before I believe that.
2.) Mr Tex you have it backwards. Tennessee's D is so good because they are able to control the line of scrimage which inturn makes their secondary look better than it is. If yo dont believe me look at their record with and without Haynesworth in the lineup.
3.)YTF, who cares what you think of Haynesworth personnaly. The guy was young and imature and made mistakes early in his career. Since he had his child his life has changed. He has become a different person and player. The light went on if you will. He has been a model citizen the last couple of years and his teamates love him. yes he still plays with a mean streak but that is what makes him special. He single handedly could do more for this defense than any player available. Its easy to critisize other peoples ideas but can you put together a better plan? Like to see it!

steelbtexan
11-18-2008, 05:13 PM
I want Haynesworth more than any other FA because he would help s control the line of scrimmage. If we cant get him i would like to spend the money on (Gamble or McAlister- McFadden). CB's drafted in the 1st rd. usually aren't ready to play immediately (McKelvin- Jenkins).

We could then draft a disruptive DT, pass rushing DE & playmaking LB.

Most importantly I would like to see Nolan or Jim Johnson named DC if they are available.

steelbtexan
11-18-2008, 05:20 PM
I'm with Muss on this one.

YTF instead of trashing other peoples off season plans lets see what your plan looks like.

buddyboy
11-18-2008, 05:44 PM
A few things to note here.
1.) TJ was not drafted to be a DE. You are going to have to show me a direct qoute before I believe that.
2.) Mr Tex you have it backwards. Tennessee's D is so good because they are able to control the line of scrimage which inturn makes their secondary look better than it is. If yo dont believe me look at their record with and without Haynesworth in the lineup.
3.)YTF, who cares what you think of Haynesworth personnaly. The guy was young and imature and made mistakes early in his career. Since he had his child his life has changed. He has become a different person and player. The light went on if you will. He has been a model citizen the last couple of years and his teamates love him. yes he still plays with a mean streak but that is what makes him special. He single handedly could do more for this defense than any player available. Its easy to critisize other peoples ideas but can you put together a better plan? Like to see it!

1) TJ was drafted to be a 3-4 DE, but moved to DT when we changed to 4-3. I know, no direct quote, but I remember it pretty well.
2) Agreed.
3) I think what YTF was trying to say was that with his history of bad decision making and off the field problems, Bob McNair probably won't want to touch this guy with a ten foot pole. Yes, you can say he's a changed man, but with the Texan's organization's emphasis on good character players, I'm thinking that Haynesworth probably doesn't get more than the obligatory sniff by the FO. Now, whether or not the good character emphasis is helping us win or lose is NOT the topic of this discussion, it's just something to be used against the idea of getting Hayenesworth. Getting him would undoubtably make our defense better, but I don't think it's gonna happen because of a) character concerns and b) cap space. That guy is gonna want a TON.

Frankly, in response to all of this, yes, I do think moving BACK to 3-4 will take at least 2 years. I do not like the prospect of that at all. Mario is NOT an OLB, no matter what "size catagory" he may fall in or what the Ravens do. He's one of the top DEs in the league, why change that? If Okam works out, then yes, maybe he can be a pretty good NT for the 3-4, and maybe Okoye works out on the other side, but IMO, even though Herv pointed out some sizes and weights, Okoye might have the size, but he doesn't PLAY as big as he is. He gets pushed around and beaten at the LOS often and that isn't going to work for a 3-4 DL. I'm not saying he won't get better, but as it is now, switching to 3-4 would be another 2 years of transition.

brakos82
11-18-2008, 05:46 PM
I don't see anything happening until dick-head Smith gets fired...

buddyboy
11-18-2008, 05:48 PM
1. Fire Dick Smith & everyone associated with the CC regime. (Greir, Riley, Hoke).
2. If we cant sign Haynesworth or Suggs I would sign Gamble & McAlister or McFadden.
3. Trade 09 3rd & 2010 3rd for an 09 2nd
4. Draft
rd1 Cody DT Ala
rd2 E. Brown DE Fla St
rd 2 Cushing LB USC
rd 4 Byars C-G USC
rd5 Matthews LB USC
rd6 Ayers DE Tenn or Wilson DE Ohio St
rd7 Bell RB Col. St.

1) Yeah, don't think that's gonna happen.
2) While the Texans have so many needs on defense (DE, DT, LB, CB, S, S) and offense (RB, G, C), why would you trade two potential players who could fill in our defense for one?

Texan JBZ
11-18-2008, 06:10 PM
A couple of responses...

First, yes the Titans are good because of Jeff Fisher..and Jim Schwartz. Defensive genius who gets the max effort out of his players.

Second, switching back to the 3-4 would basically encompass a complete defensive overhaul. If you look at the teams that run 3-4 defenses (Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Dallas, San Diego), look at the amount of talent and speed that's required to play that scheme. In a 3-4, Mario's playmaking ability would be limited because 3-4 lineman basically cover the ILBs so they can make all the plays. You have to have solid corner play because the 3-4 is designed to blitz, blitz, and then when the offense is expecting it, blitz some more. It's difficult to find 3-4 OLBs. That's why Pittsburgh's talent scouts have been so amazing over the years. Lloyd and Greene to now having Woodley and Harrison. Those type of guys aren't easy to find. But the absolute, and I mean absolute, most important piece to running a 3-4 is to have a huge, big, strong, massive NT. Without an above average NT, the scheme is worthless because that position has to plug up the middle on run plays and take up blockers on blitzes. Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, Tank Johnson. The upside is that if the Texans do decide to make the switch, they may have a shot at Terrance Cody. He's the perfect 3-4 NT. But they shouldn't make the switch because it will take a lot of time to get the right players in place to make the scheme successful.

Third, the Texans should have fired Smith yesterday (well, way before yesterday) and promoted Frank Bush to his spot. I don't know what the hell McNice is thinking. If the Texans fire Smith and promote Bush and he is able to turn the defense around and they play drastically better, then Bush should be the man for the job next year. If he's given the job and the defense continues to suck, then the organization knows without a doubt that new blood is needed. It makes perfect sense right now. The Texans are 3-7 and going nowhere this year. Why not see if Frank Bush can turn things around? McNice isn't proactive enough for me. I just don't get it. Fred Weary, my main man, gets hurt last season and cut this one when he was probably the best o-lineman on the team. Chris Taylor gets hurt, gets cut. Jacoby fumbles a couple of times during preseason, gets demoted. Richard Smith shows us how inept he is every week and gets to keep his job?!? Help me gain some better understanding fellow Texans fans, because I'm still stratching my head over how McNice runs the team.

GP
11-18-2008, 06:30 PM
Albert Haynesworth. Or the closet thing to him.
I've been watching a lot of NFL ball for lots of years (decades actually), and as valuable as a "shut-down" corner or a premier "edge-rusher" is to a defense, I'm now very confidant that the single MVP a defense can have is a large, powerful but also mobile, active inside DLineman/DT.
BTW, Hayeswoth does in fact become an unrestricted FA in this offseason as I understand it ? Wonder who gets him and how much guaranteed money he gets in his contract ?

He wouldn't come to a weak, buttercup team like ours.

Even Albert has standards.

Corrosion
11-18-2008, 06:51 PM
I originally posted this in another thread .... But I think it fits better over here :


As long as they fix one of the two problem spots on the OL (C & RG) I'll be fine with the rest of the draft being defensive players .... hell I'll probably be doing cartwheels ....


Here's my wish list for the D ....

Top of that list is One NASTY DT who can move the pocket and demand two blockers , dont care if its done via draft or FA , just find me that guy.(The mean streak is NON-NEGOTIABLE)

Yep , I put a player above a coordinator , players have to perform .... Coordinators cant defend without some talent.

A DC who knows how to put pressure on the offense rather than allow the offense to dictate his actions .... a guy who isnt afraid to fail with the blitz .... a guy who can disguise his defense , where the pressure is coming from , as well as disguise the coverages. He's also got to be able to make Demeco Ryans mad at the world .... I want to see that guy lay some pain. No more nice guy defense. I dont want to see the Texans helping opponents up after tackles either .... hell push them back down , step on their toes , kick them in the groin , throw dirt in their faces .... old school mean defense .

One ... preferably two OLB's who can play both the run and pass effectively .... No more Jay Foreman clones please. I've seen LB's make tackles 9 yards downfield far too much in the last few seasons.

Another good Corner who can play press coverage .... with enough snap to turn his head around and locate the damn ball .... and who can react quickly to make plays on the ball from zone coverages , has to be a very good tackler , again non negotiable.


Lastly I want a FS who takes good angles and plays the run and pass equally well , this guy has to be a total ******* in the secondary .... absolutely knock the snot out of any reciever who dares cross the middle also has to have a nose for the ball .... a turnover machine comparable to Rosencoptor cept for in a productive fashion for the Texans rather than the opponent.


Cut the dead weight in Weaver and Greenwood .... Let Bulman start , he's earned an opportunity.

The new DC also has the task of tossing out Hoke and the rest of the defensive assistants .... over the fence literally .... throw them out on their collective asses. They have sucked long enough.

steelbtexan
11-18-2008, 08:37 PM
1) Yeah, don't think that's gonna happen.
2) While the Texans have so many needs on defense (DE, DT, LB, CB, S, S) and offense (RB, G, C), why would you trade two potential players who could fill in our defense for one?

1. Why cant it happen McAlister & McFadden are UFA & unlikely to be franchised. McAlister because Harbbaugh doesn't like him. McFadden because pitt. isn't known for retaining their FA's. Gamble because they have to retain Peppers & Gross & they have Lucas & Marshall to play CB.

Therefore if we show them the money they will come.

We have the cap room to get it done. Mr. McNair needs to step up to the plate. This off season will tell us wether BM is about winning or making money

2. I would rather trade up & get the proven LB & pass rusher in 09
all you are really losing is a 2010 3rd & I'm willing to give up 2 Moldens for one really good pass rusher. If there is a pass rusher or LB I cant see why they wont pull the trigger because if they don't win in 09 they wont be around in 2010.

threetoedpete
11-19-2008, 12:02 AM
We have the cap room to get it done. Mr. McNair needs to step up to the plate. This off season will tell us wether BM is about winning or making money


We could sit here and count the number of deffensive lineman and offensive tackles we went out and bought and went bust if you want. Bob Mcnair is not the problem. I don't believe he has denied any coach or GM anything they said they required of him.

If we're switching back to the three four...there will be a three to four year transition period. Unless your talking about trading two of your best players to get draft choices and dominate two consecutive drafts...you can bank on three years befor you hit top ten status.

As long as Kuiak is here...we're tring to get pressure with just four. Name your eight LBs ? Currently we're scapping by with a Mike with a bad ankle, a journey Will and Sam who are no more than street fodder.... gotta draft five or six LBs over two years and hope you hit 60% of them.


Richard Smith shows us how inept he is every week and gets to keep his job?!? Help me gain some better understanding fellow Texans fans, because I'm still stratching my head over how McNice runs the team.


Well you need to go to Kyle feild sometime and just enjoy the show. Kubak isn't going to thorw RS over board.

He can't go up to the podium and say some of our players suck so badly they can't get there when we do send five or six. He can't say we invested twenty million in a long sot with speed who cannot turn his head and have any feel at all for where the ball is when it is in flight. He can't say our Cb who looked so promising as a rookie last year is now cluster coupulaton with his feet now and doesn't have a clue how to cover anyone in any coverage on any call. He can't say the #8 from a couple of years ago is under achieving to the point where they had to bench him.

He can't say we blew the call on Zogonnia and Maddox out of camp and now we can't stop jello on rushing plays. He can't say that on the draw the colts scored on....everyone had there assignments but 25.... And 25 got rolled like a tranny by Dallas Clark. And it was only by the kindness of Dallas Clark that he didn't kill twenty fve right there on the feild. He can't say that in a trips formation when our rookie LT is locked one on one with a premere pass rusher 69 quit on the play. He can't say that our #2 Qb is crapping out his foot work so bad at critacal times and thorwing the ball to God knows where. He missed A.J. by nine feet last week on one crossing route...nine feet. On the games final offensive play he missed Owen Danies by four. Four foot to high and four foot behind him. He has made one foot of improvement. McNair may fire them all at the end of the season. With the personell moves they have made that didn't work out they certainly deserve it. But the guys who ought ot be giving Bob McNair his money back are the two quaterbacks, Weaver, Greenwood, Bennet, Green, Reeves and Okoye.

Don't hold your breath.

Carr Bombed
11-19-2008, 12:13 AM
"How to fix the D".....

#1 get a hold of this man.......

http://flowtv.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/smiley-blood-splattered-dexter-photo-1.jpg

#2 tell him how every week for 3 years, Dick Smith has murdered every chance we ever had at winning and has killed all hope any fan has had............Dick Smith needs to be put down for the atrocities he has committed against this great city.....him and his partner in crime Jacque Reeves. (aka Jason David's untalented twin)

mussop
11-19-2008, 12:56 AM
I originally posted this in another thread .... But I think it fits better over here :


As long as they fix one of the two problem spots on the OL (C & RG) I'll be fine with the rest of the draft being defensive players .... hell I'll probably be doing cartwheels ....


Here's my wish list for the D ....

Top of that list is One NASTY DT who can move the pocket and demand two blockers , dont care if its done via draft or FA , just find me that guy.(The mean streak is NON-NEGOTIABLE)

Yep , I put a player above a coordinator , players have to perform .... Coordinators cant defend without some talent.

A DC who knows how to put pressure on the offense rather than allow the offense to dictate his actions .... a guy who isnt afraid to fail with the blitz .... a guy who can disguise his defense , where the pressure is coming from , as well as disguise the coverages. He's also got to be able to make Demeco Ryans mad at the world .... I want to see that guy lay some pain. No more nice guy defense. I dont want to see the Texans helping opponents up after tackles either .... hell push them back down , step on their toes , kick them in the groin , throw dirt in their faces .... old school mean defense .

One ... preferably two OLB's who can play both the run and pass effectively .... No more Jay Foreman clones please. I've seen LB's make tackles 9 yards downfield far too much in the last few seasons.

Another good Corner who can play press coverage .... with enough snap to turn his head around and locate the damn ball .... and who can react quickly to make plays on the ball from zone coverages , has to be a very good tackler , again non negotiable.


Lastly I want a FS who takes good angles and plays the run and pass equally well , this guy has to be a total ******* in the secondary .... absolutely knock the snot out of any reciever who dares cross the middle also has to have a nose for the ball .... a turnover machine comparable to Rosencoptor cept for in a productive fashion for the Texans rather than the opponent.


Cut the dead weight in Weaver and Greenwood .... Let Bulman start , he's earned an opportunity.

The new DC also has the task of tossing out Hoke and the rest of the defensive assistants .... over the fence literally .... throw them out on their collective asses. They have sucked long enough.

BEAUTIFUL!!!! You winn the button!

Look at the origonal post and tell me that defense would take 2 or 3 years to be good. Ridiculous!!!!!!!! The way i put it together we have the players to mix a 3/4 and 4/3 D. We are set with young solid players.

buddyboy
11-19-2008, 01:28 AM
1. Why cant it happen McAlister & McFadden are UFA & unlikely to be franchised. McAlister because Harbbaugh doesn't like him. McFadden because pitt. isn't known for retaining their FA's. Gamble because they have to retain Peppers & Gross & they have Lucas & Marshall to play CB.
Therefore if we show them the money they will come.

We have the cap room to get it done. Mr. McNair needs to step up to the plate. This off season will tell us wether BM is about winning or making money

2. I would rather trade up & get the proven LB & pass rusher in 09
all you are really losing is a 2010 3rd & I'm willing to give up 2 Moldens for one really good pass rusher. If there is a pass rusher or LB I cant see why they wont pull the trigger because if they don't win in 09 they wont be around in 2010.


My bad on number one, I got confused. For your second point, there are NO PROVEN players in the draft. I'd rather have Rick Smith get two shots at finding a gem in the third round than giving him one in the second.

steelbtexan
11-19-2008, 10:37 AM
My bad on number one, I got confused. For your second point, there are NO PROVEN players in the draft. I'd rather have Rick Smith get two shots at finding a gem in the third round than giving him one in the second.

I undersand what you are saying but if Smitiak see a pass rusher they really like they should make the trade.

This is a great year for DE's & if a 1st rd talent falls into the 2nd rd. they shopuld find a way to get him. With 2 picks we could get a DE like E. Smith & a LB like Cushing in the 2nd. This would fill 2 major holes in our defense.

Imagine a defense that looks like this

DE MW, E. Smith
DT AO, Cody
LB DR, ZD, Cushing
CB Gamble, McAlister
S Wilson, Brown

Mike Nolan as DC

I think you would see great improvement & the offense wouldn't feel like it has to score eery time it has the ball. This would reduce the number of chances the QB's would have to take thereby reducing turnovers.

The only thing it would cost would be FA money on CB's & a 2010 3rd rd. pick

steelbtexan
11-19-2008, 10:43 AM
TTP

I think we should hire Nolan as DC & keep the 4-3

I also agree with your take on the LB core. I believe we should draft one high 1-2 RD & two more in the later rounds 5th RD Matthews & 6th RD Sean Lee

Mr teX
11-19-2008, 11:26 AM
A few things to note here.
1.) TJ was not drafted to be a DE. You are going to have to show me a direct qoute before I believe that.
2.) Mr Tex you have it backwards. Tennessee's D is so good because they are able to control the line of scrimage which inturn makes their secondary look better than it is. If yo dont believe me look at their record with and without Haynesworth in the lineup.
3.)YTF, who cares what you think of Haynesworth personnaly. The guy was young and imature and made mistakes early in his career. Since he had his child his life has changed. He has become a different person and player. The light went on if you will. He has been a model citizen the last couple of years and his teamates love him. yes he still plays with a mean streak but that is what makes him special. He single handedly could do more for this defense than any player available. Its easy to critisize other peoples ideas but can you put together a better plan? Like to see it!

I don't agree. Again look at minnesota. They control the line of scrimmage damn well with their 3 pro bowlers on the d-line as they're 2nd against the run & 8th in sacks. but they give up nearly 11 more points than tennessee does & don't get nearly as many interceptions.

In other words,Your D-line is only as good as your secondary allows you to be against the pass. If you're giving up all the short passes underneath it doesn't matter how fast, strong & quick your d-line is they'll never get there in time enough to impact the qb's throw. Tennessee's secondary sit on the short stuff & dare you to throw over the top.

that's why you're seeing more of these hybrid TE's flex out & teams go more & more to 3-4 WR sets....they know that their 3rd string WR is likely better than a team's nickel/dime CB.

jaayteetx
11-19-2008, 11:44 AM
:includeme:
and I wanted to sport my new avatar.

b0ng
11-19-2008, 06:06 PM
Yes the 3-4 would be an ugly transition that would probably take years. If you think Okam can man the NT in the 3-4 then you are cracked. What would you base this on exactly? His game tape? No. His ability to stop the run? Well he hasn't done that yet. People saying Okam could be a NT in the 3-4 right off the bat are just looking at how big he is and that's it.

Second who are the DE's on this? TJ and Amobi? Hello runs to the outside for the big gainers. These guys aren't made to tie up multiple blockers (Hell they can't even occupy 1 blocker with Mario Williams next to them), they are made to try to get to the QB from the inside. You want Weaver as a DE? Okay, I'm sure he'll do much better having to face 2 linemen rather than 1.

Second, our LB's. I don't think I have to explain much more than that, but Mario as an OLB may be decent, but I don't think it will be if TJ and Amobi are our DE's. You want our other OLB to be Zac Diles? I don't think you do. He's not big enough, not strong enough, and he would get engulfed. Demeco as an ILB would be fine, but who would man the other ILB position? Greenwood?

We would have to have, at the minimum, two drafts on defense to really re stock, and even then we aren't garunteed to be anything more than lousy at best.

I'd rather have Mike Nolan as the DC as he has experience with the 4-3 and the 3-4. If you really want a transition to the 3-4, get him, and let him do it slowly.

johndoe
11-20-2008, 01:16 AM
Rod Marinelli is #1 on my list for possible texan d-coordinators. kubiak, get it done!!!

Scooter
11-20-2008, 06:20 AM
fire smith. i think everyone's in agreement here. we're not full of superstars on defense but our talent is MUCH better than they're performing. coaching on defense, both on sundays and during the weak, is severely lacking.

that being said, we need more talent on defense. for all the lack of talent on offense, and turnovers, and injuries, and whatever else ... kubiak can flat out coach. we're in need of a RG and C, but other than that all of free agency and the draft needs to keep going on defense. we can get by successfully with late rounders and castoffs on offense, defense needs real top tier talent.

stick with 4-3 on defense. i'm reading the arguements and dont see how a 3-4 transition would take less than 2 or 3 years, and that swap would effectively neutralize the better players that we currently have. we dont have a single lineman that i'd consider as a fit, and our undersized LB's would be exposed.

leebigeztx
11-20-2008, 08:51 AM
I think the 3-4 is a bad idea. The first thing you need is the "war daddy" in the middle. If you don't have that, you're in trouble big time. The ilb's need to be big and stout and the olb's need to be able to come off the corner and the safety has to be pretty good also. Its too much to transition again. I think it more scheme than anything for this defense. Look at the giants for instance. Look at the lbs and db's. There isn't anything special about their back 7. They losst a hof de and their next best player in osi, yet they are a execellent defense because robbins and coefield are playing well, they attack protections by overloading although they play cover 4 behind the fire zone blitz and the back 7 seem to always be in a playmaking position. I think this is a 1 gap defense or get a Haynesworth type, put okamm next to him and kick okoye to de like cullen jenkins. They do that, and this is a much better defense. Right now, they should be 1 gaping. Okoye is too small to hit, engage, stand up, disengage, go find the football. When you 1 gap, you need fast lbs especially the wlb who basically follows the 3- technique.