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fresno8
01-02-2005, 05:26 PM
Charley Casserly Excellent job getting us skill players Carr/Johnson/DD/Dunta/Babin/Sharper/wong/glenn

Horrible job w/ the O-line, jury still out on D-line, but not very good (walker 1 good year/payne injuries, Smith still a ?)

Bottomline
Until we win in the trenches and let our playmaker make plays on both sides of the ball this is what we'll get every year. I hope we solve these problems because I like this team and this team does have talent and I want to see them succeed. I don't like being negative, but we have glaring problems on both sides of the line stunting our growth.
Also I would like a coach who wants to win games not play to lose them and who has his team ready to play every week. I'd also like a creative O-coordinator, or Capers needs to let palmer open things up.

Lucky
01-02-2005, 05:46 PM
...I'd also like a creative O-coordinator, or Capers needs to let palmer open things up.
Open things up? Carr was sacked 49 times in 467 attempts. That's not even counting the number of times he was hit after the ball was released, was chased from the backfield, or had to throw the ball out of bounds to avoid a sack. They can't afford to "open things up" more than they are.

fresno8
01-02-2005, 06:04 PM
Carr doesn't have time to throw deep w/ his pathetic line. I just wish we threw more. Quick slant, quick out, quick drag. I think we could do that, and AJ and Bradford run well after the catch. Just so its not run, run, 3rd and 7 or 3rd and 8, punt. Hopefully if we ever get a line Palmer is smart enough to throw deep.

Texan Gal 312
01-02-2005, 06:11 PM
Carr doesn't have time to throw deep w/ his pathetic line. I just wish we threw more. Quick slant, quick out, quick drag. I think we could do that, and AJ and Bradford run well after the catch. Just so its not run, run, 3rd and 7 or 3rd and 8, punt. Hopefully if we ever get a line Palmer is smart enough to throw deep.

The quick throws are not open because the defense is all over it. They have seven guys covering our 3 receivers and our 7 guys blocking can't keep their 4 defensive lineman off Carr for more than 2 seconds.
We actually do better when a team blitzes us because it opens up the quick passes. However, more and more teams have figured out there is no need to blitz.

nunusguy
01-02-2005, 06:19 PM
Carr doesn't have time to throw deep w/ his pathetic line.
Early in the game they got the fly pattern to AJ, but Carr overthrew him. Overthrew him by just a tad, but he overthrew him. And he had time to make the pass.

fresno8
01-02-2005, 06:21 PM
We just have to do something. We can't run every play. None of our pass plays look easy, you never see us just playing pitch and catch. Every pass play Carr has to thread a needle and run for his life. I guess we just can't pass until something happens on the line. This is frustrating, not giving up though hopefully help is on the way.

fresno8
01-02-2005, 06:25 PM
Early in the game they got the fly pattern to AJ, but Carr overthrew him. Overthrew him by just a tad, but he overthrew him. And he had time to make the pass.
If we could do that more often Carr and Johnson will get their timing down on that play. and that overthrow won't happen. That play has hardly happened this year. And that was about 1 of 3 plays where Carr had time. Hopefully we can get a line so we can see some more downfield looks. We've got a great combo in Carr and AJ and hopefully another playmaker will be in the mix in a year or 2.

Texan Gal 312
01-02-2005, 06:27 PM
Early in the game they got the fly pattern to AJ, but Carr overthrew him. Overthrew him by just a tad, but he overthrew him. And he had time to make the pass.

Yes he did overthrow him, 65 yards down the field. (shoulder must still be hurt) Even Manning doesn't hit that route everytime, probably 50/50.
It was also a one receiver route.

edo783
01-02-2005, 06:28 PM
Early in the game they got the fly pattern to AJ, but Carr overthrew him. Overthrew him by just a tad, but he overthrew him. And he had time to make the pass.

OK, he gets one chance in a blue moon to have time to throw and he over throws by JUST a little bit. Ever occured to you that they MIGHT need a little experience doing it? Just because he suddenly gets a little time doesn't mean it's something that is a practised item and expected ite, not to metion the plain old surprise factor.

kbourda
01-02-2005, 06:36 PM
No doubt. It all starts with the O-line in my opinion. I'm kinda glad the season ended like this so the management won't be content with keeping this current O-line mix. Not saying the overall unit is bad but something be it personel, coordinators, and/or scheme has to be seriously over hauled. I'm sorry, Carr has done an exceptional job the past three years considering what he had to work with in front of him. But at this pace he might not make it to the end of his contract. I thought that last hit he took told the whole story.

knbjr40
01-02-2005, 07:09 PM
I agree with this post.We need to draft 0 line with first pick for sure.

edo783
01-02-2005, 08:33 PM
No doubt. It all starts with the O-line in my opinion. I'm kinda glad the season ended like this so the management won't be content with keeping this current O-line mix. Not saying the overall unit is bad but something be it personel, coordinators, and/or scheme has to be seriously over hauled. I'm sorry, Carr has done an exceptional job the past three years considering what he had to work with in front of him. But at this pace he might not make it to the end of his contract. I thought that last hit he took told the whole story.

True. We may have allready ruined a very good QB. He might be shell shocked and will never settle down and be comfortable in the pocket.

beerlover
01-02-2005, 08:58 PM
I'm sure Casserly sees the same things as we all do. The offensive line weak link this game was Pitts, he was flat out manhandled. Most of the time both tackles still had their man enganged & under control but the inside just caves in. The defensive line also has problems with Payne now a free agent and his latest injury, Walker might also being playing hurt. I'm sure he will address BOTH LINES AGAIN (remember he signed top free agent talent last year in Robaire Smith & Todd Wade). Have a little faith :twocents:

Mistril48
01-02-2005, 09:22 PM
No doubt. It all starts with the O-line in my opinion ... Not saying the overall unit is bad but something be it personel, coordinators, and/or scheme has to be seriously over hauled. I'm sorry, Carr has done an exceptional job the past three years considering what he had to work with in front of him...Don't forget Carr's responsibility for the O-line ...

1) Carr is generally responsibile for the offense being in the right play;
2) Carr is also partially responsible for line calls. If he's making the wrong line calls, then the O-line isn't productive, but it's Carr's fault;
3) Each pass play has a timing. For example, some call for a three, five or seven step drop. If you are in a three step drop, the ball MUST come out after three steps (if the WRs aren't open, then it's their fault). For example, an O-linemen may cut his D-lineman on a three step drop, to get the D-linemans hands down to create a throwing lane. If the ball isn't thrown, the O-lineman can't get up and continue blocking. It's too late.

I think Carr is improving and is going to be a star. I think the O-line 'looked' horrible today. What I don't know is how to spread the blame around. To be fair, Carr may not be doing a perfect job of helping the O-line, with audibles, line calls and execution.

... Not saying the overall unit is bad but something be it personel, coordinators, and/or scheme has to be seriously over hauled ...I agree that more work needs to be done. I don't know how much improvement can be expected out of this group with another year under their belts. Perhaps some personnel change is necessary, but don't except a bunch of new guys who come in and all play like superstars. Every team constantly wants to improve their O-line and there is no guarantee that drafting a player will result in a dramatically improved line. I'm very pleased with the draft of Carr, Johnson and Robinson (and much later Babin). I'm glad we took them and not an O-lineman, although each year you keep adding and at some point the best player will be and O-lineman.

Lucky
01-02-2005, 09:39 PM
True. We may have allready ruined a very good QB.
Just to elaborate, Carr has "led the league" in times sacked 2 of his 3 seasons. His career average of 3.18 sacks/game is the highest of any active QB. This can't continue.


For example, an O-linemen may cut his D-lineman on a three step drop, to get the D-linemans hands down to create a throwing lane. If the ball isn't thrown, the O-lineman can't get up and continue blocking. It's too late.
Mistril48, have you ever seen the Texans use this technique? I haven't. What I'm seeing is the linemen getting beat one on one, often off the 1st move by the D-linemen. Sometimes they're beat on stunts. In the 2nd half of the season, teams have been getting pressure on the Texans with a 4 man rush. Not a lot of tough line calls to make then, just keep your guy in front of you. The O-line hasn't done that.

edo783
01-02-2005, 09:46 PM
I think the only way we can improve the o-line fast enough is through FA. Get a Center and a roadgrader type RT. That doesn't mean not to draft a good o-line prospect, just don't count on him for a year or two to be the starter. Idealy the FA's would come from a team that uses the zone blocking scheme and have shown to be able to pass protect.

Mistril48
01-03-2005, 02:26 PM
Thank you for taking the time to make a complimentary post (by complimentary I mean a post that extends discussion of a point).Just to elaborate, Carr has "led the league" in times sacked 2 of his 3 seasons ... This can't continue...Agreed!


Mistril48, have you ever seen the Texans use this technique? I haven't...I can't say that I've noticed this technique, but they may have used it. I wouldn't want to go on record as saying they never have used it. In any event, I picked this technique to illustrate my point because I thought it was the kind of technique that is very visable and I expected that a lot of fans would recall seeing the technique, even if the Texans haven't used it.

The point I was trying to make was simply that several people are responsible for the O-line play, including the O-linemen, the O-line coaches, ancillary blockers (RB), the play caller, the audible caller, the guys making line calls (typically the center and the QB). I saw unacceptable O-line play. What I don't know is how to allocate responsibility.

One thought is that McKinney was trying to deal with a replacement guard on his right and an injured guard on his left and it worked out badly.

... Sometimes they're beat on stunts ...In some cases, I would suspect that Carr is responsible to set the RB to pick up the stunt, but I can't prove it, or identify those instances where he didn't set the RB or where he did set the RB, but the RB failed to execute the block.

To be clear, I'm not saying Carr is messing up line calls. I'm saying it's a factor in O-line play and I don't know how the Texans are doing with line calls.

fresno8
01-03-2005, 03:27 PM
Davis runs a pass route on about every freak'n pass play. Maybe if we max protected w/ him Carr could look down field. That's on the coaches. Lets see what's better a 3 yard dump off or us getting a chance to go vertical to one of the great receivers in the game today. :hmmm: The line gets beat so bad even max protect might not help. :hairpull:

edo783
01-03-2005, 04:40 PM
Davis runs a pass route on about every freak'n pass play. Maybe if we max protected w/ him Carr could look down field. That's on the coaches. Lets see what's better a 3 yard dump off or us getting a chance to go vertical to one of the great receivers in the game today. :hmmm: The line gets beat so bad even max protect might not help. :hairpull:


Basicaly we are max protecting. We use 7 people to handle the defenses 4 and can't get the job done. The otherside of that coin is that it then leaves 7 people to defense our 3 patern guys, basicaly everyone is double covered. See a problem here?

fresno8
01-03-2005, 06:02 PM
Basicaly we are max protecting. We use 7 people to handle the defenses 4 and can't get the job done. The otherside of that coin is that it then leaves 7 people to defense our 3 patern guys, basicaly everyone is double covered. See a problem here?
We got problems w/ the line anyway you look at it. We've even got problems on the D-line. Hopefully we get the right personel/coaches/ and system in place next year or if not 2 years. Still a young franchise, but we should have been more consistent this year.